Mara Brock Akil’s New Novel About Betrayal, Shame & Redemption with Oprah

Summary

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The Oprah Podcast

Episode: Mara Brock Akil’s New Novel About Betrayal, Shame & Redemption
Date: June 30, 2026
Host: Oprah Winfrey
Guest: Mara Brock Akil

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Overview

In this deeply personal and resonant episode, Oprah Winfrey sits down with acclaimed television creator Mara Brock Akil, now celebrating her debut as a novelist with The Revelation of Dionne Daphne. The episode explores the novel’s challenging themes of betrayal, shame, trauma, and redemption, with Mara candidly sharing her own story as inspiration for Dionne’s journey. Listeners hear moving exchanges about the impact of sexual abuse, the evolution from television to book writing, and how telling our stories—no matter how difficult—leads to communal healing.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Mara Brock Akil’s Transition to Fiction

• Mara introduces her novel, The Revelation of Dionne Daphne, and discusses how writing fiction allowed her to explore the emotional interiorities of characters in ways screenwriting does not.

  • "What was so refreshing about the book was how much I got to explore the interiority...I have painted portraits of full humanity…a new canvas, a book, was just—it was extraordinary." (05:25)

• She acknowledges editor Chelsea Johns’ role in nudging her towards fiction during the pandemic’s slowdown, sharing that this story was “a tough sell” for film and felt truer as a novel.

  • "I knew this industry was not going to buy this story...but I got to prove it in the book." (06:34)

Plot and Themes of "The Revelation of Dionne Daphne"

• The narrative centers on Dionne, a vibrant young Black woman in the ‘90s, forced to confront her past when told by an ex-boyfriend that he has HIV—prompting her to get tested and write down the names of her lovers, starting with her stepfather.
  • "She's ashamed that she has to take an HIV test...at the top of the list is her stepfather." (08:14, 10:56)
• The novel spans the tense two-week wait for Dionne’s test results, exploring how trauma lingers and how we compartmentalize difficult truths.

Oprah’s and Mara’s Reflections on Trauma and Compartmentalization

Oprah Shares Her Story

• Oprah discusses her own sexual abuse and its impact, with both women reflecting on shared experiences of early trauma.
  • "Nine for me, too." (00:48, 14:44)
  • Oprah on the long-term effects: "When you see these young girls being promiscuous...it's usually because the sexual stimulation...has been turned on in such a way that they're now alert to what that means." (14:46)

Mara’s Personal Healing Through Story

• Mara reveals her abuse from ages 9–12, her turn to God for solace, and how she 'repurposed energy' into academic achievement.
  • "One of the greatest gifts I've ever had was that's where my relationship with God truly began." (15:33)
  • "I channeled at that point my escape of my mother's choices...I became this amazing student. So I also became that much more undetected." (16:34)

The Mechanics of Compartmentalization

• Mara and guests describe the mechanisms of hiding trauma, from 'putting on the good girl image' to literal separation—like not letting food touch on the plate.
  • "I hid around the corners...people can project onto you, and so you can allow that story to be true..." (17:08)
  • "I just recently in my adult life let my food touch. I didn't realize how psychologically separate..." (19:12)
  • On memory: "When you compartmentalize, you gotta keep things sorted." (21:43)

Community Reflections—Shame, Trust, and What It Means To Heal

Reader Impact and Conversation

• Listeners (Thando, Marian, Philip) share how the novel mirrored or illuminated their own experiences with trauma, secrecy, and shame.
  • Thando discusses the burden of HIV stigma in South African families and the courage it takes to face the truth. (25:10)
  • Marian relates to the high-achieving eldest daughter archetype: "I look back, I think that I'm so high performing because of my trauma." (30:31)
  • Philip discusses being molested, subsequent involvement in conversion therapy, and how the character Darren resonates with his difficult journey of self-acceptance. (37:13)

The Universality of Hidden Pain

• "Anybody who wants to unload their shame—anybody who wants to talk about it, think about it, let go of it. That's who the book is for." —Mara Brock Akil (07:06)

How to Begin the Process of Telling Your Story

• Mara and Oprah encourage incremental steps in reclaiming your story and your voice.
  • "Maybe even just sharing your story with one other person, or...alchemizing my own pain to share it with the world...lets the weight off of us." (33:59)
  • "Start small. They didn't get your order right on your coffee. Send it back...learning to speak up in small ways for yourself." (35:33)

Relationships, Betrayal, and Trust

• The panel discusses Dionne’s heartbreak, how she invested trust in her ex despite red flags, and the tendency to trust our ideals rather than reality.
  • "She was trusting the picture in her head, not the person in front of her." —Mara (29:03)
  • "So many women do. They're living to the possibility..." —Oprah (29:08)

Representation, Visibility, and "Portrait Work"

• Mara expresses her mission to depict the full humanity of Black women, and the need for everyone to feel truly 'seen.'
  • "My drive is to try to paint the fullness of us because we deserve our full humanity. We deserve our light and our dark." (42:30)
  • "If people can be seen, then you're aware that you're seen, then why am I here? Is the next question. What am I here for? What am I supposed to do? And God will whisper." (44:31)

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Memorable Quotes

• “I tell the truth through fiction.” —Mara Brock Akil (13:39)
• “The longer you don't tell, the longer you feel as though you don't have a right to tell.” —Mara Brock Akil (32:17)
• “Reading this book, you feel seen. She has the same feelings that you have, she has the same ambition, emotional reactions that you've had...wow, I am not alone.” —Oprah (33:02)
• “You can’t avoid it—in the end, the release is through it.” —Mara Brock Akil (32:52)

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Notable Moments with Timestamps

00:13–01:13

• Mara details the novel’s inciting incident and primary reveal: Dionne being told to write down all her lovers, with her stepfather at the top of the list.

13:26–16:25

• Oprah reads Mara’s Instagram post about writing for her own healing; Mara details the power of writing for personal and communal liberation.

17:08–19:12

• Mara and Oprah discuss the intricacies and lifelong impact of compartmentalization after childhood sexual trauma.

23:55–26:11

• Thando, Oprah’s daughter, passionately calls the book a ‘page turner’ and reflects on living with the stigma of HIV in South Africa.

30:31–32:22

• Marian shares how trauma led to high performance; Oprah and Mara unpack the invisibility of suffering among high-achieving women.

37:13–41:37

• Philip’s powerful story of healing from abuse and resonating with the character Darren, including experiences in conversion therapy.

42:26–44:31

• Mara and Oprah reflect on the importance of “portrait work,” fully depicting marginalized lives and encouraging everyone to seek visibility.

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Conclusion: The Power of Story to Reveal, Heal, and Connect

This episode is a testament to how storytelling transforms pain—both personal and collective—into recognition and understanding. Mara Brock Akil’s The Revelation of Dionne Daphne is celebrated as a mirror, a conversation starter, and a catalyst for healing conversations around shame, abuse, betrayal, and ultimately, the redemptive power of self-acceptance.

Oprah’s closing words:
“I thank you for showing us our stories through your words.” (44:31)

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For anyone carrying untold stories or silent shame, this conversation offers hope, encourages honesty—first with oneself—and underscores the importance of being seen, both on the page and in life.

Transcript

[Oprah Winfrey]

Mara Brock Akil is bringing her gift of storytelling to the world of fiction in her debut novel.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I like when you say it, the

[Oprah Winfrey]

debut novel, the Revelation of Dion Daffney.

[Mara Brock Akil]

This young woman is on the train. She's on the train headed outside the city of New York because she's ashamed that she has to take an HIV test because two nights prior, her existence of five years tells her, I have HIV and you need to go get tested. She has to write down all the names of her lovers, and at the top of the list is her stepfather.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Is her stepfather.

[Thando]

I was as shocked as she was, if not more.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What is so interesting for me, having been a victim of sexual abuse from a very young age. Nine years old.

[Thando]

Many of you.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Nine for me, too.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Nine years old. Being raped at nine and then continuously sexually molested over the years by various boyfriends of my mother's and my cousins, these older men. You know, you just said the story is for everybody, but was a story also for you.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, absolutely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you have written about it in the books through Dionne. Daphne, do you mind sharing what actually happened to you?

[Mara Brock Akil]

I would share this.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Hi there, everybody. Thanks for hanging out with us here on the Oprah podcast today, television luminary and creator Mara Brock Akil. She has written, she has produced, she has directed over 400 episodes. Did you even know that yourself?

[Mara Brock Akil]

You know, not until we had to count for the bio. I was like, really?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Over 400 episodes? That's a lot of work. Of some of the most celebrated shows, Girlfriends, which is having its own resurgence.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I know. 25 years. 25 years. And being on Netflix for five years has just garnered a whole new audience.

[Philip]

That's right.

[Mara Brock Akil]

The 16 year olds love me, Oprah. It's like Girlfriends is like, you know, the forever of their time, I guess.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Absolutely. Okay, so there's Girlfriends and there's Being Mary Jane and there's the Game, y'.

[Mara Brock Akil]

All.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And her latest smash hit series for Netflix, Forever. Forever. Forever. Forever. Which now is. We're gonna have a season two.

[Mara Brock Akil]

We're gonna have a season two. We start rolling cameras tomorrow. Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That is so exciting to hear. Okay, so you were just sharing with me. Share with the audience. You're walking down the street. Forever has been up on Netflix now for.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I think it was about day three or day four, and we were number one. And, you know, when you think about it, you're like, number one. You're like, oh, wait a minute, we're number one in the world.

[Thando]

And.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And there's all these people on the Street. You know how New York is. And I was thinking, they don't know it's me. They don't know that me right now. For her.

[Oprah Winfrey]

They don't know you. I'm the number one.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And my little girl just was happy. She was. I was so happy. I was walking down the street smiling, in New York. And then I think the next day got the call that. The official call, that they were picking it up. That they were picking it up for season two.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's so wonderful.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah, it was wonderful. It was so wonderful. I celebrated so much. I broke my toe.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You broke your toe?

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah. I just was dancing around my apartment and just in glee. You know those private moments that are yours.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Nothing like a broken toe memory.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I have a broken toe moment.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And so now, Mara Brock Akil is bringing her gift of storytelling to the world of fiction in her debut novel.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I like when you say it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The debut novel, the Revelation of Dionne Daphne. Welcome to the teahouse. Mara Brocake Akil.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thank you for having me. I'm so overjoyed to be here.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The fact that you are now diving into this whole new world of writing, or is it a new world of writing going into the novel form?

[Mara Brock Akil]

It's funny, I like to say, as Maya would say, I'm an authoress now, but it's. You know, my process is the same in terms of what I latch onto. And sometimes it comes through visions. It comes through visions I'll see, scenes I'll see. And those are puzzle pieces. And I just put a puzzle piece here and a puzzle piece here. What was so refreshing about the book was how much I got to explore the interiority. One of the challenges that I have in. In screenwriting is how do I not say it? Not say exactly what the character or the plot or the theme is in dialogue, How? Because a lot of. In my experience, certainly for myself and my experiencing and witnessing of others, we don't really say what we really mean. We are just really. I think that's what was fun about writing, being Mary Jane. Because she said what she meant.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right. And why we love that character so much.

[Thando]

Yes.

[Mara Brock Akil]

But I don't believe a lot of us do sometimes. And so how the book gave me just a great. Just great bandwidth to explore interiority, which in my work in general, that's what I want. That's the legacy I want to leave, is that I have painted portraits of full humanity. And having a new canvas, a book was just. It was extraordinary.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Had you been thinking about it for a while? I mean, I think It's a totally different art form that people think it's the same thing. But a lot of novelists cannot write screenplays, and a lot of screenplay writers cannot write a novel.

[Mara Brock Akil]

No. You know, I want to honor Chelsea Johns, who called me. What's interesting is during COVID when everybody got a chance to slow down and think, she reached out to me and said, I believe your voice. She's my editor. I believe your voice would translate to the page beautifully. And it's funny enough, I had a story that I wanted to tell for a long time, and I had it in script notes for a while. I had. You know, when I build anything, I have a lot of research, a lot of notes, a lot that you never will see that informs what makes the page. And so I was taking notes on this idea, and I knew it got shelved, because who's gonna buy this industry? I knew this industry was not going to buy this story, even as prolific as I was gonna be, a tough sell to sort of, like, pitch this story as a film.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, this is a film.

[Mara Brock Akil]

But it is, because I think I got to prove it in the book.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay.

[Mara Brock Akil]

But I don't.

[Oprah Winfrey]

As I'm reading this book, I'm like, who's going to play? And who's gonna play?

[Mara Brock Akil]

What do you think?

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'll discuss that with you later.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Okay?

[Thando]

Okay.

[Philip]

Okay.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you said you wrote this novel with the intention of taking the reader through a story that may be familiar, one of isolation, shame.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yep.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Resilience and the redemptive power of love. So who were you writing the book for?

[Mara Brock Akil]

You know, I don't want to be cliche and say everyone, but anybody who wants to unload their shame. Yeah, anybody who wants to talk about it, think about it, let go of it. That's who the book is for. What I'm excited, though, is as universal as that story is the specificity of letting Dion, a young black woman in the 90s who didn't think she had a problem in the world, take us on that journey to be at the tip of the arrow to talk about shame and her to be very brave and vulnerable to share her story, hopefully will give permission to anyone who carries any level of shame.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, so we don't want to give away too many spoilers here.

[Philip]

Right.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Okay. Sorry.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I want you to tell us about the characters and the plot, what they're facing, no spoilers.

[Mara Brock Akil]

But I think the reason why it reads like a film is because I think a lot of stories, you want to drop them in. So I drop you in the book where this young woman is on the train. On the train, yeah. And you know, you can do that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's first page.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah, that's first page. Okay, I could do that.

[Marian]

Yeah.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Guide me through this.

[Oprah Winfrey]

She's on the train.

[Mara Brock Akil]

She's on the train. She's got it, she's got her look together. And she's headed outside the city of New York because she's ashamed that she has to take an HIV test because two nights prior, after having finally gotten over her man of five years and feeling like he's not coming back, it's the first night, six months after they broke up that she's bringing home a man and on the same night that she is having sexual relations with him

[Oprah Winfrey]

for the first time after being in this long term relationship.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Exactly. There's a knock at the door.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yep.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And it's her ex of five years. And he tells her, you know, I have HIV and you need to go get tested. And so the book takes place within the two weeks of that test. And she's on that train and one of the homeworks and the book.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So the book takes place within two weeks. Because when she goes with the test, they say, well, we can't get the results for two weeks. And I'm like, wow.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I remember that was the 90s. We had the, that was the 90s. That was the longest two weeks of anyone's life is to wait for that result. And I, I, I took the test back in the day. I was a, a journalist. I was covering a story on World AIDS Day and for the Grand Rapids Press. And, you know, this is a time when we, when AIDS was a gay man's disease. I'm having a, I'm, as a reporter and I remember this woman walking past me in the hall and I thought, God, she's gorgeous. I shopped her. I always shop like I shopped you. I was like, ooh, that's cute. That's cute. Let me get to the press conference on time. Because I'm the, you know, I'm a reporter. So I'm in the back of the room and she is the woman who is telling us that she has, she's HIV positive. My jaw hit the floor. Hit the floor. And that's.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What year was this?

[Mara Brock Akil]

This is 1990 or 1991. Either 90 or 91.

[Marian]

Yeah.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And I think 91, because it was a time and I was floored. I mean, literally, I, I, it's funny, I was in, I was at Northwestern at the time. And when I got back to School. I took an HIV test. And one of the homeworks you have is that you have to write down all of your sexual. Because in case you have. In case you have it, you have to go contact them. That's how we were stopping the disease at that time. Kind of like Covid kind of reminds you of that. And so Dion. I thought I'd give that to Dionne. Where she has to go back her homework and she has to write down all the names of her lovers. And so. And at the top of the list is her stepfather.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Is her stepfather. Whoa.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And when that. When. Okay, so we're gonna stop there in the book. And then the rest of it is unveiled.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And so in that. But that moment, it was her. So her. Her ex, Darren.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Is in the book. And we discover why and how he got to that place. There's her new lover. He's in the book. And she has to figure out how to tell him.

[Oprah Winfrey]

There's her new lover.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And then there's a witness.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Mara Brock Akil]

There's, you know, one fun fact is, I don't know we get to experience this anymore. That your paper gets. Your paper used to be dropped off in front of your house every day at 3am, 4am and somebody had to do that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's right.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And so I've always been fascinated by that person who drops your paper, gets

[Oprah Winfrey]

up in the middle of the night to go drop off of the papers.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Just Mara's fascination with who these people are. And I decided to make him her witness. This young man who has been dropping the paper at her door every night was there at the time.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And so he is the one that helps her usher through this two weeks as she turns around and faces.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And the book is the two week. It's the countdown. Waiting on the results. Our listeners tell us that the podcast is resonating with you and is serving as a bright spot in your day. That means a lot to me. So here's the thing. I would really appreciate it if you like and subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube or wherever you podcast. It's just a quick tap of the subscribe button, and that way you won't miss an episode in your queue. You don't have to pay anything. I know subscribe usually means you're paying something, but this time it means you just are notified when there's something new. There are many more to come that we're excited about, so thank you for watching and listening. Thanks for listening. It's time for a quick break. Next, Mara Brock Akil shares how her own childhood trauma took taught her to compartmentalize parts of herself. It's also a major theme in her new novel. That's next. Welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. I'm with award winning writer, producer and now debut novelist Mara Brock Akil. Her page turning new book is called the Revelation of Dionne Daphne. Let's get back to it. So you shared this on Instagram. You said, through the process of writing I unearthed a truth that became a fictional tale. The revelation of Dionne Daphne and witnessing my own healing, I experienced a revelation. And my hope is that this story offers a revelation for you too. That's what you wrote.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I did.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So when I saw that, I said, how were you telling this story? You know, you just said the story is for everybody. But was a story also for you?

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, absolutely. Amara Brock Akil, I think we're responsible for our own healing. And I have used the power of the pen to not only tell stories and entertain, but also to heal myself. I've put myself in a lot of my characters. A part of my ethos is I tell the truth through fiction. So there's going to be some level of real truth that I am really I'm drawing from. And I'm grateful that I have the ability to learn how to craft it in a way that really becomes this micro story of mine becomes a macro of, of what's impacting a lot of us. And I can find it through the workshopping of the story about who this book is for, why this book now. And there's just a lot of shame, I think, because even with the onset of the camera and the social media, we're hiding parts of ourselves.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Absolutely.

[Mara Brock Akil]

We're just hiding so much of ourselves. And actually I think it's the thing that frees us the most. And so the writing the book was an opportunity for me to free myself.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, this is, you know, what is so interesting for me, having been a victim of sexual abuse from a very young age, nine years old, many of you who.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Nine for me too. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Nine years old. And being raped at nine. And then continuously sexual molested, sexually molested over the years by various boyfriends of my mother's and my cousins, these older men. And this is what I think most people don't realize is that when you see these young girls being very promiscuous at a young age, it is usually because the sexual stimulation, the sexual whatever, has been turned on in such a way that they're now alert to what that means. So you have Written about it in the book through Dion. Daphne, do you mind sharing what actually happened to you?

[Mara Brock Akil]

I would share this. That it was a time in my life, from 9 to 12, that I was molested. And what was interesting to me at that time, and this is where the book comes into play, is how well I managed. And I managed by one of the greatest gifts I've ever had was that's where my relationship with God truly began. That my relationship is rooted in that. And sometimes I even think about, if that had never happened, where would my relationship with God be? And so thus and such. Well, it happened to me, and God loves me, so I'm supposed to do something with it. And now, all these years later, I believe this is my something to do with it.

[Philip]

Mm.

[Mara Brock Akil]

The second thing that I realized is how much you can repurpose energy. I didn't have that language at that time.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Mara Brock Akil]

But I channeled at that point my escape of my mother's choices. Like, I was in the care of this person because of her. And I know she did it out of love. Then she was clueless, too. But at that time, I knew that I had to escape. And the best way I knew how to escape is through what my family believes in, is education. So I became this amazing student. So I also became that much more undetected.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I came further and further. No one could kind of see. And then I put the good girl image up. I hid around the. I hid around the corners. I. You know, people can project onto you, and so you can allow that story to be true if they think good of you. And whether you. However you feel about yourself in those quiet moments, you can then adopt that ideas of yourself to get you through. So I think my relationship with God, my ability to understand how to alchemize that pain and energy and focus it in my grades and keep graduation and getting to the best school as my

[Oprah Winfrey]

escape plan, as so many of us have done.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But here's the interesting thing about. About the character Dion in the book. When she has to go to the clinic, the AIDS clinic, and take the test, as you were saying, you have to. I didn't know if this was real or not, but that she had to list all of the people she'd ever slept with in her life, beginning with the very first person, which I thought was interesting, because I thought it would be like the person you most recently slept with.

[Thando]

Yeah.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You do. You start from. It's funny. Yes. And that's what she does. She starts from, you know, the last One she had is the guy. The one I stand. She just had. Well, she knows the one. Eystand, but. And then her boyfriend.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And then you get to see all the other ones up there.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And then at the top of the list. At the top of the list is her stepfather. Was her stepfather. And in the book on page 201, the character Dion says, I knew how to compartmentalize our nights from our days. The same way I learned to separate myself from my body.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Ooh.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I didn't know I was doing that all those years. You know, when you're performing. I don't even know if I was performing, how disconnected I have been from my own body. I was. So I'm so compartmentalized. I just recently in my adult life let my food touch. I didn't realize how psychologically separate.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You mean on your plate?

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah, on my plate. My food never touched. Never.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, you're one of those people.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I am.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And I didn't even know why I was doing that. These examinations of this thing. I'm like, oh, my God, Mari, you won't even let your food touch.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And so after you were sexually molested. Sexually molested. Did you do this, too? You learned to compartmentalize?

[Thando]

Yes.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You learned.

[Philip]

Yes.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You learned how to be the different parts of yourself. Fragmented, puzzle yourself out. To hide this thing, to hide this. You know, I was told that if I told anyone. I gave this to Dionne, if I told anyone, that I would be taken away, you know, from my. From my mother. And, you know, it was just like, you know, you're a child. You don't know. You don't know what's true or not. And so. But the compartmentalization of self is in one way the victory of me, because just like I talked about the grades, I understood how to keep my focus around my escape plan, if that makes sense. You can hold on to the great, the straight A student. Meanwhile, you know, prepare yourself sometimes for the night. You Mentally, physically. And it's funny about the. About when I say the food on my plate. I started to notice my behavior. The other thing that's really interesting about compartmentalization, just how I keep things separate. Sometimes even friends. Sometimes even, like, how much I try to control every environment so I can survive it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you're doing that because you couldn't control being molested by somebody who is so much older than you.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You were looking for control in so many different ways.

[Oprah Winfrey]

How much older was the person than you?

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, they were a full grown man. Yeah, I know.

[Oprah Winfrey]

When you think?

[Mara Brock Akil]

I know, Not a teenager, not a 20 something.

[Oprah Winfrey]

When I look back at my 9 year old self, oh gosh, you see you're, and your little skinny brown legs

[Mara Brock Akil]

and your knobby knees and your teeth that don't. It's going every different direction. They're not even fully.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You just think, what a pervert.

[Mara Brock Akil]

How could they even see how. Yes. You know, even, you know, when my own children became of that age, you know, I took the time to cry those moments out because I thought the same thing. How could anybody touch a child at that age? And then, and of course we know

[Oprah Winfrey]

it happens all the time.

[Mara Brock Akil]

All the time. And earlier, much earlier, Much earlier and for longer periods of time. But the one other thing I'd like to say about compartmentalization is memory. It's funny, in my work now we're working, I don't even like to call it flashbacks. I'm trying to, trying to articulate memory. And it can be. Memory can also be very dangerous. But one of the things that is trying to get your memory back. So in the book, you see that Dion is trying to get her memory back because a lot of times when you compartmentalize, you gotta keep things sorted.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But one of the things I love about this book too is that one of the things that the reason it's called the Revelation of Dion Daphne is that once she goes to get the AIDS test, it starts to reveal a lot of the why of the why of the why she's behaved the way she has. Why has she had so many lovers? Why does she, you know, behave the way that she does? And also reveals, you know, all these things about family and family connections and why every time a mother's on the phone, oh, your father wants to say, wants to say hello and why she never wanted to get on the phone and all of that.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah, you just start to and it looks just like, oh, I'm busy. You know, I'm booked and busy and I've got a promotion in my life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, because she had to compartmentalize that. Yes. We have to take a break. Up next, readers join the conversation and share how Mara's book mirrored their own lives and struck a chord. Maybe for you too. That's next. Welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. I'm with groundbreaking storyteller Mara Brock Akil. We're talking about her debut novel, the Revelation of Dionne Daphne, and hearing from readers who share stories on how they overcame shame in their own lives. Now we're back to our conversation. So I love to read Books at the same time as my daughter, girl, Thando does. And I gave Thando a copy of this book, and she was. Would not shut up.

[Thando]

Ah.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Hi, Tondo. I'm so happy. I love that. That's having a conversation about that. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Being able to have a conversation about it. And we were, like, into, like. Can you believe Dominic? Can you believe what he said?

[Marian]

Okay.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Hi, Tondo.

[Thando]

Hi.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Hi, Maro.

[Thando]

Hi.

[Mara Brock Akil]

How are you?

[Oprah Winfrey]

So tell us why you like this book so much. Why was it a page turner for you?

[Thando]

Page turner? I literally. I finished it in 24 hours.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, my gosh. Okay, let me pause on that one for a second. Okay. I love that. Thank you.

[Thando]

I'm not kidding, Mama. Am I joking?

[Oprah Winfrey]

You're not joking. I had said to you. I said, I'm going to send it to you. Just read to page 105. And then you called me and said, I finished it.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, that page you were on 105.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. Okay, just read to page 105. Let me know. Catch up with me, and then I'll continue reading with you. And then she goes, I finished it. I go, well, what?

[Thando]

Thank you so much, because how could you not? How could you not? I want to know what happens after the 12 days. I got to a point where I was like, oh, I'm desperate. I need to know. And if this causes her to lose her whole, you know, why? First of all, such important themes, because we almost have forgotten that HIV was a thing. It was such a stigma. It was. It was such a. It was almost a death sentence. I was born in South Africa, where there was an era where we lost so many people in our family every single week. There was somebody who has been lost to this illness because of the fear of the shame, of the stigma that it was to.

[Oprah Winfrey]

In your own family. In your own family, yeah.

[Thando]

In my own family. Yeah. In my own family. Because of the stigma that it was. To even go to the clinic to get those results.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Exactly.

[Thando]

You know, to even have the courage. The courage she had to write down the list, go back to each person. You know, some people would rather live in absolute silence, die in the quiet of the night, because it just takes so much to go to the place where you're revealing to anybody else that you're living with this even when it's not your fault. This is the thing about Dion. The fact that everything was great, Fine. By all the measures and metrics of success and where she was headed, everything was great. You look at her life and the trajectory of it, and you Think, oh, she's above shame. She's above an experience like this. She's above the words I am HIV positive. You know, and so yeah, that overarching theme, super brilliant. Bravo for me.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh my goodness. I'm enjoying. Just thank you for that. The generosity of the reflection of it. What's interesting to me about my children play video games and you know, there's the main character, we always talk about main character energy, but there are all these non player characters, right? I'm always interested in those people and you think that they're just moving along, I'm just successful, nothing's wrong with me. I'm above shame. Let's pluck them out and let's put them, let's look at them, let's open them up, let's reveal them, let's understand them, let's understand their why. And so that was a journey not only for me, but it was fun to then incorporate what is happening around us today. And it's interesting about hiv.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You did, you did that gas station. You did.

[Thando]

Yep.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You did.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah, you did.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Anyway, I'm like Dominic. Oh no. Okay, okay, okay, okay. What's your question? What's your question? Tondo.

[Thando]

Okay, this, the thing about this book centers around trust a lot. And trust that, that revolves around her long term relationship. Parents, there's. These are trust people. You give trust in the grandest measure. You know, her and her partner were doing things like going house shopping. We're talking about rings, we're talking about. So at this point, you know, they're so far in their relationship that it is solid. She trusts, she trusts him without a doubt, without a question. Now I want to know what it is that we misunderstand about trust because how with the person that you think you know absolutely everything about you at this point, they're planning on getting married. You're like, I know him, I know this man. You know, and for him to pull out that kind of, that surprise on her, I was as shocked as she was, if not more, the way she was avoiding even having the question. I said, girl, I know, don't even,

[Mara Brock Akil]

don't look at him.

[Thando]

He has betrayed all of us.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You know, it's interesting, trust. I don't think we're really going to get to that level of idyllic trust in others if we're not that trust to ourselves. And as much as she did all the right things, I don't believe Deon never took stock of what happened. She never faced the storm of her life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I thought he was giving her signals all along.

[Marian]

Oh, he.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, he is.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I thought he was telling her all

[Mara Brock Akil]

along he was, but we don't want to. Still a red flag.

[Philip]

Still a red flag.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I don't feel that she should have been putting all of that trust in him because he was signaling. Signaling to her that he was not the one.

[Mara Brock Akil]

But you see what you want to see.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But you see what you want to see. And this is what you and I were discussing. She had this ideal of who he was. And she saw herself in the picket fence in the house.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And this other. Yes. She was trusting the picture in her head, not the person in front of her.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's right. It's so many women do. They're living to the possibility.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Day one.

[Oprah Winfrey]

They're living to the possibility. He's got the Ivy League pedigree. He's got all of that going. And they're just living to the possibility.

[Mara Brock Akil]

They have any. Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Instead of the reality.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Absolutely. I feel like that is. That is. Then that is now. That is happening. And so that allows for Dion or me to have a conversation with you right now. Because to your point, are we. How do we trust. And that would be the question then how do we do that? How do we see that if we are looking for something outside of ourselves all the time?

[Oprah Winfrey]

And isn't this a movie? Didn't we say this is a movie? Come on, Netflix.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Ted. Sakura.

[Thando]

It's a movie.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Ted. Ted, come on. This is it. We're reading the book. We need the movie by next year. Thank you so much.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yes, it's a movie.

[Thando]

Please watch my take.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Get to it.

[Thando]

I said it's definitely a movie. And I'm submitting a take for it. I'm submitting a take.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Way to go. You look amazing.

[Oprah Winfrey]

All right. Thanks, Chando.

[Marian]

Thank you.

[Thando]

Thank Lynn.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you. Okay, so Marian is joining us from Florida. Marian, what was your takeaway from the book? Hi.

[Marian]

Hi.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Hi.

[Mara Brock Akil]

How are you?

[Marian]

I'm good. And this also was a page turner. I actually stayed up until like 2am Because I couldn't put it down.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Wow.

[Marian]

And I was crying because I actually felt really seen and heard. Even if it is a fiction, like, I related so much to all the details. For me, it was sexually abused at 10. I related to protecting my sister. I related to the eldest daughter, like, also with the character and with what you said, like high performing. So you don't look like the typical. Right. What people think a victim of sexual abuse. And also the symptoms of like your body keeping the score and feeling it. Like, I related to her rage that would come out sometimes and she, like when she started unpacking, she realized a lot of her actions and how she had memory blocks were all part of it. So, like, yeah, I related so much and my takeaways were, you never really know. Someone can have a picture perfect life. And oftentimes I look back, I think that I'm so high performing because of my trauma. And I didn't realize that until I actually OD'd and had a near death experience that was the catalyst for finally unpacking everything. So my takeaway was, you just never know. And there are probably so many more women, especially women of color, who are in silence yet don't look the part.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Don't look the part. I think most of us don't look the part. Because of that thing that, that Mara writes about, about compartmentalizing. Specifically, if you've hidden it from everybody, you know, the people who don't tell have to compartmentalize in order to survive. And that becomes a part of our survival skills.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And the longer you don't tell, the longer you feel as though you don't have a right to tell.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Exactly.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And then it's like, okay, well, maybe your memory is wrong, which, you know, kind of comes up in the book. First of all, I just want to say thank you for sharing and just. And I'm sorry. I think sharing our story allows us to say I'm sorry that you didn't deserve that. But I'm also proud of you for getting yourself through that. And I think I would say that you probably facing your storm is the way through. And that's the takeaway that I feel like the release is through it. It's not avoiding it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But I like what you said in the beginning, that reading the book and I think this is what's gonna happen and this, what Mara has done with her work, for all of the storytelling that she's done throughout the years.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Makes me want to tear up. Is that you make us feel seen and you allow. And that's what you said at the beginning of this conversation, that reading this book, you feel seen. She has the same feelings that you have, she has the same ambition, emotional reactions that you've had and what that does to all of us. When you read a book and you say, wow, I am not alone, I am not alone, I'm not alone.

[Marian]

And actually my question would be like, what else do we share to women who are still in that silence? Right. Like, you know, who are older, because I came out older too and it feels like Dion had all the things and she was older. To the women who are still kind of living that picture perfect life, I

[Oprah Winfrey]

think that's a great question.

[Thando]

Wow.

[Mara Brock Akil]

That is a great question. I think I would say to own your story, even now,

[Oprah Winfrey]

it's never too late. To own the story.

[Mara Brock Akil]

To own the story. And I think that for me, my relationship with God, which we talked about, it gave me permission. Like, if I believe that God has everything for me, then you want me to do something with this, and maybe even just sharing your story with one other person, or I guess my case, alchemizing my own pain to share it with the world, it gives permission for other people to share theirs. Like you sharing your story with me, it makes me feel not so nervous, you know, I'm still telling my story. You're braver than me. You're telling your full story as who you are. I get to take my pain and alchemize it through a character and. But that gives us permission to share so we can let the weight off of us. And then I think we can begin to know who we are, because some of what we've gone through will be who we are really, you know what I'm saying? And what parts of that experience are we going to want to adopt? That says, you know, okay, that's me. That's who I am. And then what are the parts that, you know what? I don't like that. And my body, now that I have my body back in sync with my heart, mind, and spirit, it tells me we don't like that. And now I have to find the voice, the silence that I use that kept me trapped. Use that voice to start to speak up. And I say start to do it in simple places. I mean, I literally start small. They didn't get your order right on your coffee. Send it back. They didn't, you know, you asked for something, they didn't give it to you. Have a conversation, even at work, learning

[Oprah Winfrey]

to speak up in small ways for yourself. Start small. You don't have to start with the big things is what you're saying. Yeah.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And then you'll get to the big things.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So thank you so much, Marianne. Thank you so much for sharing with us today.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Really.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thank you so much.

[Marian]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Tell your friends about it. Don't you think the book is a movie?

[Mara Brock Akil]

It is.

[Thando]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you so much, Marianne.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thank you, Marianne. Thank you for reading it. Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

After a quick break, Mara Brack Akil explains that her life's Work is to help people feel seen. Because she's noticed so many people hide parts of themselves. Maybe that resonates with you. Stay with us. We're back with television creator and now first time novelist Mara Brock Akil. Philip also read it. Philip read it and read the book. And Philip, hi. You have a comment and a question for Mara.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Hi, Philip.

[Philip]

Hey, Mara. Hi, Ofra, how you doing?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Hi, Philip. Good to see you.

[Philip]

Good to see you too. The book is a banger. Just wanted to let you know that it's absolutely incredible. Like the whole time I'm reading it, I'm like, I just want, I want a short series. Like, I don't. I would love a movie, but a short series would be incredible.

[Mara Brock Akil]

The limited series, huh?

[Oprah Winfrey]

A limited series.

[Philip]

Yes, a limited series would be really, really good because I want multiple episodes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, yeah, you're right. I would, I actually like, would like to spend more time with the mom and dad and the mom and the stepfather and the home and that whole life and all of her little friends and everybody coming and I would, I would.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You don't you want us limited to that?

[Oprah Winfrey]

And I want multi part 2. Sorry, Ted. Get the movie. Multi series. Limited. Limited series.

[Marian]

Okay.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah, we want, we want to go on the awards circuit. Okay.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay. Okay. What did you want to say? Say, Philip?

[Philip]

Well, I really resonated with the character Darren. I was molested as a child. That led me to really have issues with my sexuality and accepting the fact that I was gay. So then I ended up joining a gay conversion therapy church in college.

[Oprah Winfrey]

How'd that work out for you? How'd that work out for you?

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, it was, wow, terrible.

[Philip]

Terrible. Like I just, I abuse on top of that. Right. And I got, I got married at 21 and I'm 40 now. I just came out of the closet last year.

[Marian]

Oh, wow.

[Philip]

And just got, yeah, just got a divorce this past year.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Wow.

[Philip]

So you married really hard.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You married.

[Philip]

I ended up marrying the, the leader of the gay conversion therapy church's sister.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, wow.

[Philip]

Yes.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Wow.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And did you do that because you thought you were gay, converted or you did it to try to create another facade?

[Philip]

No, I didn't do it to create a facade like a beard. She was, she had met my ex boyfriends. She knew I went through the program and, you know, she saw me go from wearing flat front chinos from express to, you know, baggy clothes and, you know, assume that I had been converted into a straight man. So she was really under that programming as well.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So did you believe you had Been converted into a straight man.

[Philip]

Yes. I was. Honestly believed I was. I honestly believed I was converted. Now, in retrospect, I realize that my sexuality is just on a spectrum and that I do have some attraction to women, but unfortunately, I didn't have the luxury to kind of find that out myself because I was molested by a man.

[Marian]

Yeah.

[Philip]

And so. And in college, you know, maybe I would have explored women eventually. So I think that's why the marriage lasted as long as it did, because I did have a genuine sexual attraction to her as well. But I do skew, you know, towards men. I prefer men.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. So. So I wanted to ask you. So what did you think of the Darian character?

[Philip]

So I empathized with him because since I wasn't. Since I wasn't being completely deceptive, because I believe that I was healed and freed and, you know, I went through the program. I wonder, like, did you want to express that duality with Darren as someone who. I mean, he was. I don't want to give away the story, but, you know, thankfully I didn't end up with hiv, and thankfully, I didn't pass it on to my partner because I did end up being unfaithful to my wife. I wonder, what is the lens that you see Darren through?

[Mara Brock Akil]

I see the lens through not being honest about what. Who we are and what we want. And I think for anyone, bottom line

[Oprah Winfrey]

comes down to honesty.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah. That, you know, you can be with someone for five years, know they want to be married, know they want to spend the rest of their life with you, want to build a life with you, and. And you dangle little things in front of them because you want those things too, but you're not really. But he didn't want her. And I think that's a lot of investment of time, especially at the best, especially in the 90s, when every other article for women was your biological clock. You better get that guy. At the same time, they're telling us to be independent. So she's on a quest to find her man so she can have that baby, build that life. And he didn't want that from her. And I think. I think through the lens of. But then I've got to shout out, you know, medill School of Journalism, why. So that Darren, for me, I got to explore why are some of these stories that we hear and multitude. Why the man. How many stories we've heard about women saying, he took the best years of my life, and he. I've waited five years and I've done this and I've done that. Well, I wanted to put my lens on his why and explore what a portrait of a black man would be, could be in 1991 in New York for this successful, successful black woman who's, you know, doing her thing, you know, and he's doing his thing, and they look like the perfect couple, and everybody projects onto the perfect couple, you know? And so I wanted to pull that couple apart, and I wanted us to see who they were and be a reflection not only of then, but still now.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, I'm glad you saw pieces of yourself in this story. You believe it should be a movie, too.

[Mara Brock Akil]

No, no.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Limited series. Limited series.

[Philip]

Limited part series. Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Limited part series. We can't wait for it. We can't wait for it.

[Philip]

Yes. Thank you so much.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So much. Thanks, Philip.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thank you so much, Philip.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. So this is what I so deeply appreciate you, is that you have taken this power of storytelling and helped us to see ourselves in ways that reflect back to us, our shames and our inadequacies, but also our joys. Because in the end, we feel her joy and her resolution to be more of herself.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And I think that's what watching all of your work has done for us.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thank you. I think I like to think I do portrait work. And when you really do a portrait, you need to see the whole person. And I think I know I have been endeavoring to paint the fullest humanity of us. I feel like if America is our home, right, and we are children in this home, our image has been so distorted, if at all, on the wall. So imagine living in a home, and all the pictures on the wall are mostly of white and male, or certainly not you. And when your picture is up there, it's blurred, distorted. So for me, my drive is to try to paint the fullness of us because we deserve our full humanity. We deserve our light and our dark. And for us to figure out how to evolve on our own and then the safety of others by first being in the safety of ourselves. And so then it brings. And a lot of these things are imparted on us. And most of us spend a lot of our lives avoiding it. And then, you know, like Philip, like Marian, just at 40, just at whatever age, start to open up. Imagine if we can start to think about that at a younger age or prevent it, number one. But maybe if we start to think about the repair that has to happen earlier, how much more life and life force that's in us, that we can actually get to the purpose of why we're here in the first place. And so the portrait work is to see fully, because one scene, I have a thesis that if we're seen and we come out of the womb, mommy, Daddy, see me. And it goes to it goes to schools, it goes to coaches, it goes to theater and plays and media, and you're never seen, then you never have to show up. So if I in this compliment, you give me Oprah, I thank you. Because if people can be seen, then you're aware that you're seen, then why am I here? Is the next question. What am I here for? What am I supposed to do? And God will whisper.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I thank you for showing us our stories through your words.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you. Mara Bracha Kiel. It's her first novel. It's called the Revelation of Dionne Daphne, and it's available now wherever you want to buy your books. Tondo, Marianne, and Philip, thanks for reading with us and for your questions and thank you, dear listeners, for hanging out with us. See you next time. Go. Well, as my daughter, Girl Tondo, puts it, the Revelation of DL Daphne is a page turner. You'll want to talk about it with your friends this summer. You can buy it right now. Just scan the QR code on your screen. Enjoy. Our listeners tell us that the podcast is resonating with you and is serving as a bright spot in your day. That means a lot to me. So here's the thing. I would really appreciate it if you like and subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube or wherever you podcast. It's just a quick tap of the subscribe button and that way you won't miss an episode in your queue. You don't have to pay anything. I know subscribe usually means you're paying something, but this time it means you just are notified when there's something new. There are many more to come that we're excited about, so thank you for watching and listening.