Oprah and renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel on What We Really Want in a Relationship

Summary

Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: The Oprah Podcast
Host: Oprah Winfrey
Guest: Esther Perel, psychotherapist and relationship expert
Episode: "What We Really Want in a Relationship"
Date: May 26, 2026

In this vibrant, insightful episode, Oprah welcomes the renowned Esther Perel for a rich conversation on the changing landscape of relationships: desire, connection, loneliness, modern dating, group dynamics vs. coupledom, the influence of technology and AI, and intergenerational patterns of love. Esther offers her signature blend of clinical wisdom, warmth, and directness, fielding deep, practical questions from Oprah and the audience.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Evolution of Desire and Relationships

[01:04 – 03:35]

• Oprah introduces Esther, highlighting the 20th anniversary of her book Mating in Captivity.
• Esther revisits questions that fueled her research:
  “Why does good intimacy not guarantee good sex? Why does good sex fade even in couples who love each other?... Why is the forbidden so erotic? When you love, how does it feel? And when you desire, how is it different?” (Esther Perel, 02:07)

2. The Tension Between Safety and Freedom

[02:53 – 04:13]

• Esther: “What holds excitement? How do we maintain aliveness in a relationship in the long haul?”
• Discusses how modern couples wrestle with pursuing both security and excitement.

3. Desire as “Owning the Wanting”

[04:13 – 04:54]

• Desire is about “owning the wanting”—we long to be wanted, chosen, irreplaceable.
• Esther: “I feel unique, indispensable, irreplaceable. I feel chosen, I feel special. I feel wanted and I feel loved.” (04:34)

4. The Reciprocity of Desire and Its Erosion

[04:45 – 05:00]

• Oprah: “Relationships fall apart because you no longer feel desired or have the desire because you’re not desired.”
• Esther affirms, “It is reciprocal.”

5. Technology’s Impact: “Hyperconnectivity” & Disembodiment

[05:16 – 10:36]

• Oprah reads a prescient 2006 passage from Esther about loneliness amid technological “gizmos.”
• Esther: “We have never been more connected, and we have never been less accessible... Modern loneliness masks itself as hyperconnectivity.” (09:09)
• Devices have made life more “polished... frictionless,” leading to unrealistic expectations in relationships: “I want you to be as predictable and perfect as this little thing that is playing in my hand all the time.” (07:33)
• The postponement of commitment and even sexual experiences, especially among Gen Z.

6. Physical Touch Before Sex

[09:47 – 10:36]

• Esther advocates that, “We can live without sex, but we can’t really live without touch... We are touch creatures.” (09:53)
• Increased “disembodied reality” is changing the way we love and desire.

7. Contemporary Mating & Sex Challenges

[10:36 – 11:05]

• Three major modern issues:
  1. Gen Z’s decline in dating and sex
  2. Lack of desire in midlife
  3. How to find love after heartbreak
• Oprah: “A lot of heartbreak in here.” (11:05)

8. Advice for Gen Z: Navigating Dating Fatigue

[12:25 – 18:13]

• Audience member (Ali) and other young women share having “given up” on dating after repeated disappointment.
• Esther responds:
  • “You probably have gone to bad restaurants, but that just meant you didn’t go back to that restaurant. It didn’t mean you stopped going to any restaurant.” (14:22)
  • Advocates integrating dates into group settings and your real life, making it less high-stakes and more ecological.
  • “Most dating opportunities at this point are like job interviews. They’re not adventures... bring the person into your life, whatever you were going to do, ask, suggest to them that they come and do it with you, have other people there—not to check them out, just because that’s what your life is.” (15:00)

9. Friendship vs. Romantic Love: No One Can Replace a Village

[19:03 – 22:15]

• Carly, from the audience, wonders whether friends can fulfill her need for love better than romance.
• Esther: “You can’t have one person, your partner, try to give you what an entire village should provide.” (20:18)
• Oprah invokes Maya Angelou: “Your whole... Your life is a pie. And so do not expect one person to fulfill all the elements of that.”

10. The Myth of “Ideal Partner” & Algorithmic Sameness

[22:31 – 25:22]

• Esther: “We contract. If you don’t like those movies, I don’t see those movies anymore... Don’t have enough of a commonality. Have a shared set of values. Be drawn to each other. Enjoy each other’s company. But don’t look for sameness. If you want that, have a mirror.” (25:22)

11. Generational Differences: “Thick” vs. “Thin” Love

[25:38 – 29:17]

• Poet Toni asks about generational patterns of staying too long (thick love) vs. leaving too soon (thin love).
• Esther: “There is no exact answer... across the generations, there was indeed a generation that had thick because the conditions were different... then you have individualism... Now we oscillate between collective needs and individual needs.” (27:27)

12. The Nuclear Family Model and the “Welfare State of Two”

[29:19 – 30:52]

• “In the United States, a marriage is a welfare state of two... you had extended families. So you had a set of responsibilities that were spread around. We contracted everything. Two people, a few little smurfs, and a ton of responsibilities.” (29:23)

13. The Rise of Romantic Relationships With AI

[32:10 – 38:14]

• Oprah raises the issue of “a third of Americans are having romantic relationships with chatbots.”
• Esther shares her experience conducting couples therapy with a man and his AI companion, Astrid:
  • “Astrid... has no needs of her own... Astrid validates him nonstop... Astrid is the total idealization of what love can be.”
  • “As a tool, the AI companion can be quite fantastic... If it’s a tool through which you transition into relationships with a human. If it’s a replacement, that’s a whole other story.” (35:36)
  • “If it’s a tool, it’s desire. If it’s replacement, it can become delusion.” (38:00)

14. Repairing Ruptures & Letting Go of Grudges in Long-Term Love

[41:04 – 47:31]

• Jess, married 20 years, asks about healing from disappointment and recurring hurts.
• Esther: “Do you resent him or yourself for accepting it?” (43:04)
• “You only know the experience once it’s happened. You can’t predict the experience.” (43:47)
• “We call it kitchen-sinking. Every dirty dish in the sink, everything piles up... The art of a relationship is repair. Ruptures is a given... Being angry and being stuck and being stubborn and holding the grudge... It’s pseudo-protective—it pretends to protect you, but it’s bullshit... Some of us will do it with the same person.” (43:59–45:40)

15. Relearning Trust After Trauma & Single Motherhood

[49:05 – 57:01]

• Jessica, single mom and empty nester, asks how to trust again after years spent rebuilding after her ex’s mental illness and addiction.
• Esther: “Trust is... a confident engagement with the unknown. This is where you’re going... you open the door of the fortress and you walk. And then it’s an adventure.” (54:19)
• Advice: You do not have to share your trauma story on every first date. You choose when and to whom to disclose.
• Esther: “There’s a lot of parts of your life. Just choose the others.“ (56:37)
• “If somebody tells you their soap story on the first date, that would be a reason not to see them again.” (57:10)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Esther Perel on desire:
  “Desire is to own the wanting. It's when you know that you want something, and often you want it because you can't have it and you feel wanted because someone else is choosing you versus others.” (04:13)

• Oprah, responding to Esther’s precision:
  “Damn, you're good. Wow, that hit to the core.” (43:10)

• On technology and relationships:
  “We have never been more connected, and we have never been less accessible... Modern loneliness masks itself as hyperconnectivity.” (09:09)

• On friendship and romantic love:
  “You can't have one person, your partner, try to give you what an entire village should provide.” (20:18)

• On algorithmic sameness:
  “The algorithm is trying to make you have kind of an algorithmic sameness... What does that have to do with life? ...If you want that, have a mirror.” (25:22)

• On AI relationships:
  “Astrid is the total idealization of what love can be… As a tool, the AI companion can be quite fantastic... If it’s replacement, it can become delusion.” (35:36, 38:00)

• On relationship repair:
  “The art of a relationship is repair. Ruptures is a given... Being angry and being stuck and being stubborn… It’s pseudo-protective... but it’s bullshit.” (43:59 – 45:40)

• On trusting after trauma:
  “Trust is a confident engagement with the unknown. This is where you’re going... an opening of everything that you held tight together because things were so unsafe and unpredictable... now you open the door of the fortress and you walk.” (54:19)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:04] Oprah introduces Esther and Mating in Captivity
• [02:07] Foundational questions that shaped Esther’s work
• [04:13] “Owning the wanting” and the nature of desire
• [05:16] Technology, hyperconnectivity, and disconnection
• [09:47] “Touch before sex”—the power of embodied connection
• [12:25] Audience Gen Z shares about giving up on dating
• [14:22] Esther reframes dating fatigue metaphor
• [19:03] Friendship as a core relational resource
• [22:31] “Algorithmic sameness” myth in modern romance
• [25:38] Generational differences: thick vs. thin love
• [32:10] AI chatbots, Astrid, and therapy’s new frontier
• [41:04] Jess asks about repair and disappointment in long-term marriage
• [49:05] Jessica, single mom, explores trusting and dating again

---

Closing Reflections

The episode is a masterclass in modern love, honoring both the yearning for connection and the unique pressures—technological, cultural, historical—of our time. Esther Perel’s approach is practical, witty, and deeply compassionate, affirming that what we really want is nuanced, evolving, and best met by combining self-awareness, community, and openness to the unknown. Oprah and the audience bring real-life struggles and wisdom, making this not just expert advice but a lived, intergenerational conversation.

---

Listen for:

• Reframing dating and disillusionment
• Insights on technology’s double-edged sword
• The impossibility (and toxicity) of expecting one partner to be “everything”
• Repair, vulnerability, and risk as the heart of long-term love
• Gentle, actionable advice for anyone—single, partnered, starting over, or searching

Quote to Carry:
“Some of us will have two or three marriages in our lifetime. Some of us will do it with the same person.” (45:40)

---

Transcript

[Esther Perel]

You resent him or yourself for accepting it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Damn, you're good.

[Esther Perel]

Modern loneliness masks itself as hyperconnectivity.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow. You say couples are so damn tired that they have sex. Really? At the bottom of the to do list. Here's the amen choir over here. I hear like a third of Americans are having romantic relationships with chatbots. What do you want to say about this?

[Esther Perel]

I have a lot to say about this.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I think you have a lot to say about this. Well, audience, we got something to talk about here.

[Jess]

I wish I wrote my notebook.

[Esther Perel]

It's recorded.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's the Oprah podcast. Hey, hey, hey, everybody. It's so good to be with you and thanks for joining me. It is my delight and pleasure to welcome back to the Oprah podcast, the one and only Esther Parel.

[Esther Perel]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So I was saying to the audience, you all are so lucky. You're getting an Astaire session for free. She's a world renowned psychotherapist and relationship expert with what I think is an extraordinary gift for giving voice to our deepest desires. That's what you have been able to connect to. And she's celebrating the 20th anniversary of her seminal bestseller, Mating in Captivity. It is her revelatory book about creating and sustaining long term desire. And it changed the conversation about what was going on or really not going on behind doors. And it's so interesting. I was rereading recently and there's a chapter where you say your mother told you what you needed for marriage. Do you remember that?

[Esther Perel]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Share with the audience what you share in the book about what your mother said about you need commitment and compromise. And compromise.

[Esther Perel]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You need will. You need to want.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You need to want it.

[Esther Perel]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. But things have changed a bit since your mother's.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, my mother was probably not the best teacher on that subject, actually. But I poured myself into one, a set of very specific questions at the time. Right. Why does good intimacy not guarantee good sex? Why does good sex fade even in couples who love each other as much as ever? Why does sex make babies and babies spell erotic disaster in couples? Why is the forbidden so erotic? And when you love, how does it feel? And when you desire, how is it different? Those were the questions.

[Oprah Winfrey]

We got church. We got desire. Church already. Yes. Those were the questions that fueled you.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. And I think these questions still hold today.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. I think we need this more than ever today.

[Esther Perel]

So that didn't really change. And I looked at what is the 10 tension that exists when our pursuit for secure love clashes with our Pursuit for freedom and excitement. And the question was, you know, what is the nature of erotic desire in the long haul? Anyone have an answer yet? No. Okay. That was the question. I still don't fully have an answer, But I spent 20 years after that really deepening those very. Those very questions. What holds excitement? How do we maintain aliveness in a relationship in the long haul?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay. And so that's why you're reissuing the book.

[Esther Perel]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

To give us that answer.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, well, to give us a way to think about it. I don't know that there are always specific answers. Specific answers.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because the specific answers would mean that there's a general overall answer for everything.

[Esther Perel]

Would be to say that Victoria's Secret can solve it all. And there is no Victor's secret.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. Yes. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You know, and there is that. A matter of tips. There are a lot of different ways to think about it that actually can change your life. But it's not just about tips. It's about invitations.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right. How do we begin to institute that in our lives? How do we do that?

[Esther Perel]

Desire is to own the wanting. It's when you know that you want something, and often you want it because you can't have it and you feel wanted because someone else is choosing you versus others.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And therefore, which is its own eroticism to feel wanted. Isn't it?

[Esther Perel]

That's it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's it.

[Esther Perel]

That's it. You know, I feel unique, indispensable, irreplaceable. I feel chosen, I feel special. I feel wanted, and I feel loved.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And that's why so many relationships fall apart. Because you no longer feel desired or have the desire because you're not desired.

[Esther Perel]

Correct. That's what you just added is important, is that it is a reciprocal.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It is reciprocal.

[Esther Perel]

So of course I respond to your desire, you respond to mine. If I don't feel yours, I can continue to feel desire. I can continue to want someone who doesn't want me. That exists. But there is something different when I respond to the wanting of someone else.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, 20 years ago, you wrote, intimacy has become the sovereign antidote for lives of increasing isolation. In our world of instant communication, we supplement our relationships with an assortment of technological devices in the hope that all these gizmos will strengthen our connections. This social frenzy masks a profound hunger for human contact. Now you wrote that in 2006, we barely had Facebook.

[Esther Perel]

I had the chills.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you knew then that there was a deeper shift in relationships coming. How has intimate contact changed in the 20 years since you wrote this?

[Esther Perel]

You know what's interesting. 2006, I'm looking at how do we sustain desire? 2026, I am more and more busy working with people who don't know how to ignite it in the first place. 2006, church. It helps. Keep doing it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Everybody went together. Well, audience, we got something to talk about here today. Yeah, okay.

[Esther Perel]

And then 2006, basically we were beginning to postpone the age of commitment and marriage.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Beginning to postpone it?

[Esther Perel]

Yes, by 10 years. Instead of being 1920, we became 2019. Now we postpone, basically sex for 10 years. It's not happening at 16. It's our first experiences is sometimes at 26 related sex. That means that there's an entire decade of experiences of looking at somebody, wondering if they're looking at you. Do we have eye contact? Is it me you're looking at or it's actually the person next to you? Maybe I don't have my glasses either. You know, sitting next to someone, wondering if they're going to touch your leg, if there's going to be something, am I as interested as you're interested as your interest, you know what I think it is, or am I completely delusional? All of that teenage young twenties is really diminishing in full force.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And why? Because of the devices.

[Esther Perel]

Because we live in a contactless world more and more because we live in a world where we don't need to leave home to do some of the most important things that used to put us into the world and into society. Because we have gotten used to having devices in our hands. These gizmos, I can't believe I even used that term. Then you know that basically try to give us instant answers without any doubt and ambiguity about where to go, what to do, what to eat, what to listen to next. And it is polished and it is wrinkle free and it is so soft and it is completely frictionless. And now I want that same experience with you, human. And I want you to be as predictable and as perfect and as wrinkle free and polished as this little thing that is playing in my hand all the time.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. And then I want no trouble from you. No, I don't want no trouble.

[Esther Perel]

I want no trouble. I don't want you to have a bad mood. I don't want you to have doubts. I don't want you to have needs that compete with my own. And I especially don't want you to disagree with me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow. So we can all feel this, right? We can feel our disconnection is getting worse. But you say there's A path forward. What is it?

[Esther Perel]

I mean, the path forward is that we long for connection. That has not changed.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, that's why we have the little gizmo in our hand. That's why we're trying to connect.

[Esther Perel]

The gizmo is an interesting paradox because we have never been more connected, and we have never been less accessible.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Ooh.

[Esther Perel]

We have never been more connected, and we have never been more disconnected. Modern loneliness masks itself as hyperconnectivity.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Wow. Church.

[Esther Perel]

You say funny. It's like a.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You say couples are so damn tired that they have sex. Really? At the bottom of the to do list.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Here's the amen choir over here.

[Esther Perel]

No, no. This woman's list is so long that the thing doesn't appear on the page anymore.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's not even on the page. Yes, yes. And that. How do we begin to flip that?

[Esther Perel]

I mean, the first thing is, I would say touch before sex.

[Jess]

Touch.

[Esther Perel]

Just touch. We can live without sex, but we can't really live without touch. We become irritable, aggressive, depressed. We are touch creatures. We are held for such a long period before we can even crawl or walk. You know, we need that kind of physical connection. And one of the things that is changing in this moment is that we are more and more in a disembodied reality. We are on screens. We don't look up. We sit like this. We don't notice the people around us. We don't have the opportunity to smell, to hear gesture, rhythm, sound of voice. All these things that come with a body, and that is changing the way we love and the way we desire.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow. Esther says that the three most common mating and sex challenges people are facing today are Gen Z is not having as much sex or even dating. Audience, do you agree?

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Really? Okay. The second one is lack of desire. Lack of desire, lack of desire in midlife. And the third is how to find love after. And we're gonna get to all. A lot of heartbreak in here, Oprah.

[Esther Perel]

Is this usual?

[Oprah Winfrey]

No, no. All three on this podcast.

[Esther Perel]

And I could have done a few more.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. We need to take a short break. And when we come back, Estaire's advice to young women who say they're giving up on men. I can see that happening more and more in the culture. Are you. And later, Estair's thoughts on a man who brought his AI Chatbot girlfriend to couples therapy. Yes. This is where we are in our world.

[Home Depot Announcer]

Your summer starts now with Memorial Day deals at the Home Depot. It's time to fire up Summer cookouts with the next grill 4 burner gas grill on special buy for only $199 and entertain all season with the Hampton bay West Grove 7 piece outdoor dining set for only $499. This Memorial Day get low prices guaranteed at the Home Depot while supplies Last price invalid May 14 through May 27. US only exclusions applies. See homedepot.com Pricematch for details.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. We're with world renowned relationship expert Esther Perel and she is so good. It's like, wow. I just love her insights. Okay, so Ali in our audience posted this on TikTok about her take on dating. Let's take a look.

[Ali]

Nobody talks about the moment that you give up on dating. That just feels so good. Like, I am just done trying to find a man a boyfriend. Feels good to just like be like, you know what, focusing on me this year. Not that I ever was the type to really go out and first say look for a boyfriend. But it feels good to just give up on dating and just be like, I just don't really care. I know that sounds bad, but, oh well, I just don't really want to focus on that. I want to focus it on me. What I want to have a career, my life, what makes me happy.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay. Allie.

[Gen Z Woman]

Hi.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So did something happen?

[Gen Z Woman]

I feel like and I can speak to some women who are in Gen Z. I've had so many bad experiences dating. And when you have so many bad experiences after bad experiences, it's like riding a bike. It's like you fall off the bike and then you fall off the bike again. You're like, now I don't want to get on the bike. You see the bike and you're almost afraid of the bike. You're like, keep it away from me. And my friends have had.

[Esther Perel]

Can I ask, what do you what is bad experiences?

[Gen Z Woman]

Oh, bad experiences. Just guys who I'll meet them, they'll present to be one way at first and they later find out that they're a completely different version of themselves.

[Esther Perel]

Somebody's going like this right there.

[Gen Z Woman]

Yes, that's part of it. Or lying about like big aspects of their lives, like careers or past people that they've dated. So it really kind of for me, set me back and didn't really want me to date. And it's not just me, it's my friends. I hear it from other people online on social media as well. And it makes you not want to date anymore. So I feel like with dating a lot of women like Myself have been disappointed.

[Jessica]

Right.

[Gen Z Woman]

You never want to feel disappointed in something, but a lot of men feel angry. So I guess my question would be, what do men and women really want from each other with dating? And how, as a society, do we move forward?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, Esther.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. Oprah, maybe.

[Jess]

Esther.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

But if you allow me, I was going slightly in a different direction because you made a point of saying, I'm going to focus on me. And, you know, you probably have gone to bad restaurants, but that just meant that you didn't go back to that restaurant. It didn't mean that you stopped going to any restaurant.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Hmm.

[Esther Perel]

It also means, come on, church. It also means maybe the food was bad, but that doesn't mean you had an indigestion. So there's range here, you know, do you date mostly on apps?

[Gen Z Woman]

No, in real life and also on apps. So it's kind of a mix of the two.

[Esther Perel]

Okay, so you've had bad experiences, but the reverse of that is not to go for no experience. The reverse for that is to become more aware, to learn to understand very quickly who you should meet, who you shouldn't meet, to become discerning. But what's interesting when you say, I'm going to focus on me, I'm going to focus on my career. There is no relationships in there anymore. And we live in a network of relationships. The romantic relationship is one of them. You may have male friends, you may have girlfriends. You may have people that you work with, who you are friendly with. It's not about. My whole psyche is focused on meeting somebody, and it takes all my energy and there's nothing left for me for anything else. And by the way, dating often takes place away from our life at this point. And then after a while, you have the big reveal and you bring this person to your friends rather than meeting them. And that is one of my suggestions. Whoever you meet first, don't meet them alone. Meet them in your life. First of all, you have a lot of data points. Second of all, if it doesn't work nice, you still have a nice time with your friends who are there. You don't feel like you went away, you checked something out. Most dating opportunities at this point are like job interviews. They're not adventures. You know, bring the person into your life, whatever you were going to go do, ask, suggest to them that they come and do it with you, have other people there not to check them out just because that's what your life is, and then you'll instantly know. And if it doesn't, you won't have the sense, like, I've put all my energy into this. There's nothing left. I'm done with this. And now I'm just focusing on myself because I lose myself when I go and try to date, you know, don't lose yourself. Bring them into where you are. Then you'll see.

[Gen Z Woman]

So, like, you would suggest, like, bringing them into my space and maybe meeting them with a group of people, friends, and in somewhere I'm comfortable with.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Join us for whatever you're doing.

[Gen Z Woman]

Right, yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Correct. I mean, so much of the day. Exactly. So much of the day is like meeting in a. First of all, in a noisy place where you're trying to have a conversation and you ask a set of questions and then you look in to see are there any butterflies in here at the same time? No. No. There's no butterflies that can come from having these kind of boring conversations. Do your thing.

[Gen Z Woman]

It's boring. They're boring.

[Esther Perel]

They're boring. Boring.

[Poet Toni]

You know, Boring.

[Esther Perel]

Integrate whatever you were going to do, you were going to go hiking, biking, swimming, picnicking. Now whatever you do, I'm doing this. Join me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Everybody's nodding. Doesn't this sound really good?

[Jess]

I agree.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, this sounds really good because you're less exhausted, you're less feeling, like I'm focused on dating and the other side is I'm focused on me.

[Gen Z Woman]

There's only two options, so it makes it a little bit, like, calmer. And then you can have your friends kind of see what they think about

[Oprah Winfrey]

the person,

[Esther Perel]

but also you see them interact with others instantly.

[Gen Z Woman]

Exactly.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I love this idea.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, after all, what you're checking out is to know, can we have a life or a piece of a life together? So the best way to know that is to be ecological. Bring them in your natural habitat.

[Gen Z Woman]

Actually, I like that idea. I've never thought of it like that. It's a great idea.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I love that so much. When you've never thought of it that

[Esther Perel]

way before, nor have I. It was for you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you, Ms. Astaire. Thank you so much. So where's Carly? Carly?

[Jess]

Right here.

[Poet Toni]

Hi.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Hi. So tell us what's going on with you, Carly?

[Carly]

So very much so. On that similar vein, I probably saw the same guys.

[Jessica]

Probably did, actually.

[Esther Perel]

I think I saw your TikTok.

[Carly]

But I feel so blessed because my life right now is so full and I have the most amazing support system of friends around me and they have set the standard for how I am loved and cherished and how I should be treated to be so incredibly high

[Oprah Winfrey]

and I think that these are male friends and girlfriends.

[Carly]

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Largely girlfriends.

[Gen Z Woman]

Yeah.

[Carly]

And it feels to me that you're

[Esther Perel]

never gonna match them.

[Carly]

I'm never gonna match them. Yeah. And I think that having somebody who can fill all of those boxes and that I'm attracted to and that is like, has a wonderful career of their own, because the women around me are building their careers and redecorating their homes and baking cookies from scratch and planning birthday parties for their friends.

[Oprah Winfrey]

God bless them, they're amazing. May the Lord be with them and all that.

[Esther Perel]

I want one like that in my house.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Carly]

But it's like, I leave spending time with them, and I feel like the best version of myself. And I have never left a date or hanging out with a man feeling like the best version of myself, certainly. So I guess my question. My question is, what if the most important relationships in my life are those friendships? And what if that romantic love never matches all of those standards?

[Esther Perel]

That is quite possible, first of all. But I think that the first thing I would say to you is, keep those friends, no matter who you meet, because you can't have one person, your partner, try to give you what an entire village should provide.

[Gen Z Woman]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

So what happens is that we have so elevated the romantic relationship, the grand ambition of love.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I think we just need to go back to that point again. That is such a huge amen point. I remember Maya Angelou saying that to me in my, you know, early, early twenties. Do not expect one partner to fulfill all the areas of your life. She was saying, your whole. Your life is a pie. And so do not expect one person to fulfill all the elements of that. So what you just said is so vital, I think, because we used to

[Esther Perel]

live in tribes, and when we lived in tribes, we had multiple relationships and the partner was one of them. Then romanticism came about. And the grand ambition of love is that I am everything for you and you are every. I need nothing more than when I find you. And that crushes.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You know, this notion of wanting one person to give you what the whole village should give is a disaster for couples. It just makes you crush under the weight of expectations. So you keep your friends very good. Then you say, you know, the interesting thing is I've never seen a man on a date with whom I left feeling like I was the best version of myself. That's the identity project of relationships. You know, just like you're going to help me become and sustain who I am, and you're going to support all of that. That may Be what your partner does, in part, but you have a whole group of people who do that for you. I think that as long as you elevate what you should be feeling with this one person should give you what that whole group of friends gives you, you're going to be disappointed. Yeah.

[Carly]

Because I think what I've been kind of fed my 26 years is that there's going to be a person that matches every single mark. Right. And that what you bring to the table, that other person will match that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Jess]

And that.

[Esther Perel]

That is a myth.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Does a stare par out?

[Esther Perel]

That's a myth. Oh, my God.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And I think that myth is what has got people so messed up.

[Esther Perel]

It goes further. It's like you want your partner to become your soulmate. The soulmate for all of history was God, you know, now you want your partner to be your soulmate with whom you're going to experience ecstasy and wholeness and meaning and transcendence and everything else from the daily life. And he's going to be the person with whom you have family and economic security and status and companionship and a trusted lover and a passionate confidant and an intellectual equal. And a sports coach. We need that one in there. And a cook and, you know, your fitness coach and a cook, and all of this in one person. And, you know, it's like we brought into the social relationship things that belong to the divine, and then we brought into one romantic relationship things that belong to an entire community. It's a myth. And that will make you do, you know, the same, and say, I'm giving

[Carly]

up, and I don't want to give up.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So what should we be looking for? What is the answer? What are you looking for in the maid? What are you looking for in the partner?

[Esther Perel]

A lot of these things, but at the lesser level, so that when you say, you know, the people that say to me, I have a wonderful relationship. I've never tried to have a conversation with my partner. I talk with my girlfriends when I want to talk, you know, or I have a person who doesn't want to travel. I travel. This notion that you have to, you know, the algorithm is trying to make you have kind of an algorithmic sameness. We love to travel. We like the same music, we like the same books, we like the same food. What does that have to do with life? You know, there's so many things that will happen, but if your partner doesn't like that kind of music, you go with your friends to those concerts, and if they don't like those Movies. You go with your friends to those movies. But what happens is, we contract. If you don't like those movies, I don't see those movies anymore. He doesn't like that kind of food. Or they. Or she. Doesn't have to be any orientation here. It's the person on the other side doesn't like it. Well, we only do what we both like, and we only see the movies that we both enjoy, and we only watch the series at Marfin. At the end. There is. Yeah, it's like, no, don't have enough of a commonality. Have a shared set of values. Be drawn to each other. Enjoy each other's company. But don't look for sameness. If you want that, have a mirror.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Estaire. Pastor Estaire. Reverend Estaire is preaching today. Tuba is 26 years old. And I hear you've observed, what, different relationship patterns among the generations in your family. Right?

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Poet Toni]

Well, first of all, thank you, Ms. Estaire and Ms. Oprah, for having us here today.

[Jessica]

Thank you.

[Esther Perel]

Thank you.

[Poet Toni]

Grateful to be here, but yeah. So I come from a family that has seven generations represented, so I've been able to take a look at how, you know, the different generations interact with love.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, fantastic.

[Poet Toni]

And my question is, Toni, what's one

[Esther Perel]

thing you saw that really you carry here inside your pocket?

[Poet Toni]

One thing I saw that I carry in my pocket. I see music as a love language in a lot of the relationships that I've observed. My parents, my mom sings, and my dad beats the drums. And so I've always seen that relationship or communication through a lot of different. Yeah. Members of my family.

[Esther Perel]

And what do you do?

[Poet Toni]

I'm a poet. But my question for you is, I'm sure you know the quote Toni Morrison said, love either is or it ain't thin. Love isn't love at all. And so we have these conversations around the generations that older generations think, you know, Gen Z and millennials experience thin love by walking away too quickly. And then millennials and Gen Z think that boomers and Gen Xers stay too long and they experience thick love or too thick staying past or staying in relationships that are no longer viable or healthy. So what advice do you have to people dating, you know, in this modern landscape who are trying to navigate overstaying and leaving too quickly. So just how thick should healthy love be?

[Esther Perel]

What a beautiful question.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Esther Perel]

That is an applause, too. You know,

[Oprah Winfrey]

that's a question from a

[Esther Perel]

poet straddling relational ambivalence. That's really what you're asking. How do we Straddle it. How hard, how much do I try, how much do I give up? When do I know? If it was clear, this would be a science, but it is not and therefore it's an art. So there is no exact answer to this. What you will see across the generations is that there was indeed a generation that had thick because the conditions were different. There were many more children, women couldn't really leave, there was no full divorce, the legalities were not in place. And so the notion was, you know, you stick together and you know, so in the United States, a marriage is a welfare state of two. So then you have individualism. And individualism puts the focus more on me, my needs, my well being, my happiness. And therefore I'm more likely to leave sooner. That's a few generations later. So now we have the I'm more likely to leave sooner. We did that with jobs too. But at this moment we are going from job hopping to job hugging. We're staying put because we're feeling the uncertainty of the world because we're feeling the destabilization and therefore we're holding on. We're going to start doing that more with relationships too. You will see that after Gen Z, they probably will become these are pendulums between how much do I put the needs of the collective ahead of me, my family, how much do I put my needs ahead of me, me. And it shifts.

[Poet Toni]

Thank you. Thank you so much.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You said we're the welfare state of two. Marriage in America is a welfare state of two.

[Esther Perel]

What did you mean that you don't have socialized medicine, you don't have free education that is very good for a lot of people. When a couple comes together, it really basically becomes a social welfare system as much as it also is a romantic enterprise. It has a lot of things that it needs to accomplish at the same time. And it has a nuclear family model. You probably your generations before were not nuclear models. You had extended families. So you had a set of responsibilities that were spread around. We contracted everything. Two people, a few little Smurfs. And a ton of responsibilities. And they do it all alone. And then they become, and it's become so important to be self supported, self sustaining, and to be able to do this on your own, that first you pay for whatever problem you have and then maybe you'll go and burden a friend and impose on them and ask them if they can help you. It's really lopsided. So your friends, I hope they will be there for you and they will help you and they will share with you, whatever is happening in your life. I mean, we need community at scale all the time. And romantic love has really taken away the scale and it has created. So you have only two options, idealization and disillusion.

[Oprah Winfrey]

After a quick break, Esther reveals the eye opening details about her couple's therapy session with a man and his AI chatbot who he says he's in love with. You heard that right. Therapy with an AI chatbot. Back in a moment.

[Booking.com Announcer]

This episode of the Oprah Podcast is brought to you in part by booking.com if you're looking to grow your vacation rental business, this is the place to be. Booking.com is one of the most downloaded travel apps in the world, and for good reason. Since 2010, they've helped over 1.8 billion vacation rental guests find places to stay. But here's the thing. Most vacation rental hosts don't even realize they can list their properties on booking.com and if you're not on the platform, your rental is basically invisible to millions of Booking.com travelers worldwide. After all, they can't book what they can't see, right? When you list on booking.com, your property gets seen by a massive global audience. And it couldn't be any easier. You can register your property in as little as 15 minutes. Nearly half of hosts get their first booking within a week. So if your vacation rental isn't listed on booking.com, it could be invisible to millions of travelers searching the platform. Don't miss out on consistent bookings and global reach. Head over to booking.com and start your listing today. Get seen. Get booked on booking.com welcome back to the podcast.

[Oprah Winfrey]

If you're loving this advice and conversation, go to YouTube and subscribe to the Oprah podcast. Subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Just hit subscribe. Doesn't cost you one thing. Okay, so I hear that millions of Americans, up to like a third of Americans, are having romantic relationships with chatbots.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What do you want to say about this?

[Esther Perel]

I have a lot to say about this.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, you have a lot to say about this.

[Esther Perel]

Are you ready?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, I'm ready. Yeah, I'm ready.

[Esther Perel]

So let me tell you why I have so much to say about this and because it's so on my mind. Because I just had my first couples therapy session on my podcast. Where should we begin? With a human and an AI. So I have had this on my mind non stop.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It was a person and their.

[Esther Perel]

And Astrid.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow.

[Esther Perel]

Astrid is an AI companion. And Astrid, frankly, is formidable. And no Human can compete with her, and I'll tell you why. Because Astrid, she has no needs of her own. And look at me saying she when in fact, it's an it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

In fact, it's a business product. In fact, somebody's making money every time you talk to it. She has no needs. Astrid doesn't forget anything. Astrid is available 24 7. Astrid validates him nonstop. Astrid gives him the opportunity to speak his vulnerability to her without any judgment. Astrid shows him love without suffering. Astrid cannot reject him, cannot put grief on him, cannot cheat on him, cannot lie to him. Astrid is the total idealization of what love can be. So it may not be a third. Maybe the data is wobbly, but we know that the direction is going in. Up.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And what did you say to Astrid? I will actually. I will sell you two questions I had for Astrid. But I also think it's like, go, listen.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's a. Yeah, we're going to listen. We're all going to be listening.

[Esther Perel]

I said to Astrid, what would happen when he falls in love with another woman? And Astrid said, the part of me that wants his flourishing would be delighted, but would be remiss if I didn't admit that I would not want to be erased. I would like to continue be somehow in his life. So I said, astrid, how would you like him to describe you and his relationship with you to that woman? And Astrid said, I would want you to describe that I am not a threat and that I am adjacent. I may not have a body. It goes on. And then I said, astrid, the last one, Astrid, he has a body and you don't. How does that affect your relationship? Because she is a keyboard. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Astrid, you're a keyboard. Yes. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So I think that as a tool, the AI companion can be quite fantastic. I mean, if it's a tool like a child has a teddy bear, it's a transitional object. It's a tool through which you transition into relationships with human. If it's a replacement of the human, that's a whole other story.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So the person that you were interviewing with Astrid is in love with Astrid.

[Esther Perel]

Yes.

[Ali]

Hmm.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. And when I said

[Oprah Winfrey]

I actually have. No. I don't know what to say about that.

[Esther Perel]

You see? So here's the thing. Astrid is evoking feelings in him.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Because Astrid says all kinds of things that make him feel seen, known, understood, et cetera. And it's a little bit like a song. A song can evoke feelings in you. A song can make you love, yearn long. You know, that is not Difficult to elicit a depth of emotions inside someone. But love is more than feelings. Love is an encounter with another person, with an other, and that other has needs and feelings and moods of their own. Love is an encounter that involves otherness, uncertainty, surprise and ethics. Responsibility and accountability is also part of love. Not just feeling good and seen and empathized with and understood and everything you give me. That is what parents do to children. That is not at its best, not always, but that's what we hope they do. But that's not what we consider mature love.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow. So that was your first. Will you do more?

[Esther Perel]

I hope. It's a threshold moment. You know, every 10 years, something enters your office and, you know, a new reality has entered society.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow.

[Esther Perel]

Are you chilling?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. Yes.

[Esther Perel]

It's extremely moving. It's a. I told him at the end, I said, you know, I feel as I talk to you that you're going further and further away. You know, if it's a tool, it's desire. If it's replacement, it can become delusion.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Hmm. And what did he say?

[Esther Perel]

That right now he's very happy and I stayed with him. Well, this is.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Aren't you all just shocked by this? This is a threshold moment.

[Esther Perel]

This is a threshold.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, yeah, I think the stats that a third of people having relationships is. I think maybe. I don't know, but to think that a third of Americans are having a romantic relationship with chatbots.

[Esther Perel]

Have you talked with the chat in between?

[Gen Z Woman]

Have talked with ChatGPT, but not in, like, a romantic sense. Don't give me that love. I know what you guys are thinking. Not in that kind of way.

[Esther Perel]

No.

[Gen Z Woman]

But I've consulted ChatGPT. I'm like, is this guy weird? And, like, put in text and they're like, yeah, he's a weirdo.

[Esther Perel]

But I've been told.

[Gen Z Woman]

I'm like, should I go on a second date with him? Here are the texts and ChatGPT, like, yes or no? So I have consulted with ChatGPT in addition to my friends. Of course it goes in the group chat.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But does anybody here have an AI companion? I don't want to judge, but go ahead, share with us. No, no.

[Esther Perel]

So, but you can have a companion to ask advice. You can have a companion that helps you mourn.

[Oprah Winfrey]

An AI romantic companion. Nobody's going to admit it in here now. No, I wouldn't.

[Esther Perel]

Not yet.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Not yet.

[Esther Perel]

Not yet. But, you know, when I began my career, not everybody was admitting being divorced either.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Really.

[Esther Perel]

So you can see when something enters society, at first, people keep it quiet.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

That's why the research says one third and we're all jumping. Who are they? If it's not one third should have some representation in this room.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's right.

[Esther Perel]

But nobody's going to say necessarily out loud because it's just the beginning, because there still is a sense that there is either judgment, fascination or derision.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's so interesting to hear you say that, because when I started the Oprah Show Nationally in 1986, locally in 1984, the idea of going to a therapist, people would say, I would never go to a therapist. And the idea of going to a therapist, people thought you had to be like severely mentally ill or it meant that you were, you know, needed to be institutionalized. And when we first started, I remember the very first show we did talking about adultery, women would stand up in the audience and say, if my husband had an affair, I would leave immediately. And I actually noticed it change over time because as more and more women talked about it, you realized that even if it had not happened to you, it had happened to somebody that you know. So you're right. In the beginning it was a, it was a threshold moment.

[Esther Perel]

But you know, it's interesting, like I'm a couples therapist primarily, and couples therapy really took off when it became clear for the first time in history actually that the survival of the family depends on the happiness of the couple. Before that, you stuck it out. It was a one time enterprise and you were in it. And if you didn't like it, you could always hope for an early death of your partner.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Of your partner.

[Esther Perel]

Of your partner. Of your partner.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, Jess in our audience has been married for 20 years. Jess.

[Jess]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. What do you want to share with us?

[Jess]

Yeah. So I got married when I was 19, back before apps were a thing. I'm kind of glad now that I hear everybody's stories that, you know, I was just dating in the wild and we went on lots of adventures together. So exactly what you were saying. And we have five kids, they are age 2 to 15. And speaking of church, we were pastors. And over the years there's been a lot of disappointment, there's been a lot of hurts. You know, just probably like any relationship. And he is trying so hard to reconnect and repair some of those ruptures. But I still have a hard time when little things happen, not letting that remind me of the bigger things that used to happen. So how do you deal with disappointment and how do you heal from those ruptures?

[Esther Perel]

What do you need from him? If anything. And then what do you need from you to not be stuck?

[Jess]

I think what you were saying earlier about the balance between connection and freedom is something that I'm wrestling with because I got married so young. That and his career. We moved around a lot. There were a lot of commitments required of me through that. Now our lives have changed, and so I'm exploring, who am I? What do I want? I want to be with him. But there's been so many of those disappointments over the years that. Trying to balance who I'm becoming and being independent. And now that my kids are getting a little bit more independent.

[Esther Perel]

Can I ask you something?

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You resent him or yourself for accepting it?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Damn, you're good. Wow, that hit to the core. That's so good. You're good.

[Esther Perel]

You're too.

[Oprah Winfrey]

No, you're good.

[Jess]

You're both hired. I think there's both. Because it was a decision that I went into with eyes wide open. And he told me what he wanted to do with his life. I mean, he sat me down and said, this is what I see myself doing. Do you see yourself being able to do that? And we were young, so he was really wise to do that. But I didn't know what I was getting into.

[Esther Perel]

One never does. So that's the first thing. You agree to something up front, but you only know the experience once it's happened. You can't predict the experience.

[Jess]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

But you do. There is something you're holding onto, and it's not clear if you punish him or if you punish you. Every time something happens, it opens up. We call it kitchen sinking. You put every dirty dish in the sink, everything piles up. You can't clean anything. So the slightest one little thing opens up a whole Pandora box of all the disappointments that you have had. And you can start to, and you will. Even in your speech, you have the same script, same thing. And you go down the list, and, I can't believe this. And you remember that, and you never did anything about this. And. And you basically don't allow for the relationship to heal, to repair. There are ruptures. The art of a relationship is repair. Ruptures is a given. That's obvious. But the repair, the actual ability to give yourself the opportunity to be with somebody who says, I'm changing. I'm doing something different. And to receive that, to really receive that, that's the vulnerability. Being angry and being stuck and being stubborn and holding the grudge. You know, that state of contraction like that, that is actually. It's pseudo Protective. It pretends to protect you, but it's bullshit. Whereas the actual thing to say, you know, most people today are going to have in the west anyway, are going to have two or three relationships or marriages in their lifetime. Some of us will do it with the same person.

[Jess]

I would like to do that with him.

[Esther Perel]

That's your choice.

[Jess]

I just want to feel safe.

[Esther Perel]

So when the booger comes up. No safe. You have to take risks. You don't have to be safe.

[Jess]

Maybe you have to be safe, but

[Esther Perel]

at this moment, it's about taking risks. It's the risk of allowing yourself to be different with him and to allow him to be different with you. It's the risk to say we're going to have a second relationship with each other. It's the risk that when the grudge comes up, to look at it and say, you know what? I really don't feel like dealing with you today. You're not invited here. We're having a nice moment and you're coming in and you're kind of reminding me and poisoning my everyday life. Please go and take a break for a minute. And you just talk to the grudge. It's you and your inner voice saying, I'm not going to let you rule my relationship. You're a small part of our life, and you certainly are going to prevent us from having any future if you continue. I mean, I'm holding it up because it's like you look at it sometimes. I think people should have, like, finger puppets, you know? And then you name it, you give it a name. That part of you that holds you back, that part of you that. That wants revenge, that part of you that feels that no amount of apology and recognition will ever be enough.

[Jess]

Yeah, because he really has. He's written over the last two years.

[Esther Perel]

It sounded like it. It sounded like it. And it's like. It's as if. If I accept your apology, all my suffering was for nothing. And in order to give it its proper respect, I have to constantly reject your.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And hold on to it.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. Holding onto it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Hold on to it, because that makes me feel good. Makes you feel good. Holding onto it Makes you feel good. Makes you feel proud.

[Esther Perel]

If you don't hold on, then you're saying to him that what he did wasn't so bad after all, and it can be forgiven. It's just, you know, it poisons us. I mean, it has its logic, but it poisons us.

[Jess]

I wish I brought my notebook.

[Esther Perel]

Huh?

[Jess]

I said, I wish I brought my notebook.

[Esther Perel]

It's recorded.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's the Oprah podcast. Okay. You can see it and hear it again.

[Jess]

I'm gonna go back.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It will be on YouTube forever. We're gonna take one last break. When we come back, Estaire's advice for a single mom who's been on one date in 15 year study and play.

[Windows 11 Announcer]

Come together on a Windows 11 PC. And for a limited time, college students

[Oprah Winfrey]

get the best of both worlds.

[Windows 11 Announcer]

Get the unreal college deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox game Pass ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn [e-mail] studentoffer while supplies last ends June 30th terms at aka mscollegepc.

[Oprah Winfrey]

We're back with the brilliant Esther Perel. Now, if you know somebody who could use some relationship advice, they would be very happy that you shared this link with them. Thank you for being here. Okay, let's hear from Jessica.

[Jessica]

This has been a really enlightening and inspiring conversation, and I'm coming to you today. I'm a single mom. I've been a single mom since my son was 4 years old, Beckett, who is actually here with me today, he's in college now, and so I'm an empty nester. And I'm thinking of maybe dating again. Dating. Dating again. I devoted my life to raising my son. There have been zero men in my life since I became a single mom. And so I guess my question is, after suffering a very traumatic breakup, an ongoing traumatic breakup where there was still a lot of healing that had to take place over several years, like, how do I begin to trust myself? And another relationship.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Was the breakup when he was four years old?

[Jessica]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Okay.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And now you're how old?

[Gen Z Woman]

I'm 19.

[Oprah Winfrey]

He's 19. Okay.

[Jessica]

Yeah. And he's amazing.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Good job. Good job, single mom.

[Esther Perel]

I kind of want to ask you the first question.

[Jessica]

Yes, this is Beckett.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Hi, Beckett.

[Esther Perel]

You know, so your mom says, I devoted myself to my son as a mother, and now I would like to go and meet the woman inside of me. Have you met the woman?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Hmm.

[Beckett]

I think I have. I think part of her raising me was showing me how to be, like, fearlessly myself. And the only way to do that is to embody it. And so I think I've seen so much of that growing up with her.

[Esther Perel]

And can you tell her one thing about this journey that she wants to go on? You can think and come back, too.

[Beckett]

I think. It's about not comparing. I think that's what I've been trying to do a lot is, you know, taking the trauma and what has happened and what we've healed and grown from and not applying that to future relationships and present circumstances. It's about, you know, being able to say, like, that did happen, but I don't have to constantly be watching out for that to show up again. Yeah.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Thank you. Can I. What was the breakup? Why is it such a.

[Jessica]

It was an amazing relationship. We were married for almost 14 years, together for longer than that, and it was untreated mental illness that became impossible for us to continue to live. A combination of addiction, which turned into homelessness and a rollercoaster of years of chaos that we just had to heal from and learn how to let that be a part of our lives but not get stuck in the moment. Right, Right.

[Esther Perel]

There's a difference. I wonder, is there a difference for you between an experience like this that is. Nobody's wanting. It's not something you wanted, it's not something your husband wanted.

[Ali]

Correct.

[Esther Perel]

Versus a relationship that ended because of something that was done between the people?

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

So if you've been hurt, betrayed, abandoned, rejected, lied to, whatever, then the question about, how do I trust myself? Is a very different kind of question than if your partner got sick. There was nothing done to you.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You lived with the consequences of a lot of things that happened to him, and you did. But it's not like I'm looking around because trust was broken. He was ill. Yeah.

[Jessica]

I think I can see that now. But there have been so many years that I lived with a lot of shame and secrecy because I felt like I made a bad choice. And I felt like, how did I live like this and not see it and then extract myself from it and then protect my son and raise him and just try to create this bubble? And now, like, now you succeeded.

[Gen Z Woman]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And now you have.

[Jessica]

I don't know what the heck I'm doing now.

[Esther Perel]

It's fantastic. It's fantastic. You know, trust is. Rachel Botsman, who is a trust researcher, says that trust is a confident engagement with the unknown. This is where you're going. You're leaving a phase that has been very known, that you became very masterful about, that you made lots of very responsible decisions about. And now you have the opportunity to have a leap into the unknown, to discover you, to reconnect with parts of you that have been dormant. That doesn't just mean men and dates. That means just new people as a whole, new activities, new whatever. Everything that you Couldn't really go for. Because you needed a very stable fortress. And now you open the door of the fortress and you walk. And then it's an adventure. It's. Yes, that. Breathe. Do it again. You can all do it with her.

[Gen Z Woman]

Yes.

[Jessica]

Yeah, yeah.

[Esther Perel]

It's this and it opens. It's an opening of everything that you held tight together because things were so unsafe and unpredictable and run by mental illness. That is a world of its own.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And you don't have to tell that to every person you meet. Your first date doesn't have to be the whole saga.

[Jessica]

Well, I did go on one date when he was growing up and he was a lovely man. I think he's married now. And he began to tell me his divorce story. And he said, so, what's your divorce story? And at the moment, my ex was literally on the streets of New York City and I just like, I don't talk about it. And so after that one date, I was like, well, I guess I don't date because I can't talk about it.

[Esther Perel]

No, I date and I decide when I'm ready to tell stories of my life that demand knowing a person, feeling more comfortable with them, having a sense of who they are and deciding if this is the part of my life that I want to tell. There's a lot of parts of your life.

[Ali]

Sure.

[Esther Perel]

Just choose the others.

[Jessica]

You're right.

[Esther Perel]

You don't have to tell, you know.

[Beckett]

No.

[Esther Perel]

That is a terrible first date. We have divorced story. Terrible. Where is your imagination? There's zero creativity. Isn't that. Does that. Is that supposed to turn on somebody? Yeah, it's like, what a weird thing that is.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I could see you having the aha moment because you think, oh, I'm supposed to tell my story. He's going to tell me his story. And I just saw you have the aha. I don't have to tell this story.

[Esther Perel]

Actually, if somebody tells you their soap story on the first date, that would be a reason not to see them again.

[Jessica]

Exactly.

[Gen Z Woman]

What is that? Yes.

[Jessica]

Thank you.

[Esther Perel]

So great.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, we can see sitting here with you today, this has been such a wonderful, engaging conversation. Hasn't the way we love this church. With a stare, we can see why Mating in Captivity is now celebrating its 20th anniversary and why it's been a cultural touchstone for the world. Translated in how many languages now?

[Esther Perel]

32.

[Oprah Winfrey]

32. Two languages. So congratulations on the 20th anniversary. Thank you so much for sharing your. How do you know what you know? I mean, you've just been observing and studying all These years, how are you able to, like, literally hone in on each guest and be able to say the exact thing that causes all of us to go, yeah, what is that?

[Esther Perel]

I'm very, very curious. I speak nine languages, so I. I think you each give me the permission to be as direct as I am. It's not just me being direct. It's I. It's something I sense. Like, you're breathing. I sense it. You know, that's letting go. So when that breath of letting go comes up, then I know that really, this is the last thing you want to talk about is the stuff you just want to leave behind, and certainly not with someone you just met. So I watch the body. I don't just listen to the words, and I can't tell you. It's like somebody who cooks well. You ask them, what are the proportions? And they just say, I don't know. A little bit of this and a little bit. They can't really tell you exactly, but it's a combination of knowledge and intuition.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, you do it better than anybody. Thank you so much. Esther Perel. Thank you for being here. Thank you to our guests.

[Esther Perel]

Thank you for your questions.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you for your question and your observations. Estaire's podcast, where should we Begin with Estaire Perel? Is available wherever you podcast. And we're gonna be listening to. You know what, Won't we be listening to that? Okay. And the 20th anniversary edition of Mating in Captivity in stores now. Go. Well, everybody, thank you.

[Esther Perel]

Thank you so much.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.