Oprah & Richard Rohr on Finding Hope in Uncertain Times

Summary

Podcast Summary: Oprah & Richard Rohr on Finding Hope in Uncertain Times

Podcast: The Oprah Podcast
Host: Oprah Winfrey
Guest: Father Richard Rohr
Air Date: August 19, 2025

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Overview

In this heartfelt episode, Oprah Winfrey sits down with acclaimed spiritual teacher and Franciscan friar Father Richard Rohr to discuss his new book, Tears of Prophetic Wisdom for an Age of Outrage (often called The Tears of Things during the conversation). Against the backdrop of societal unrest and collective anxiety, they candidly explore how suffering, tears, and grief are fundamental to transformation, compassion, and a deeper understanding of love. The episode is enriched by listener questions and the voices of Jason Wilson (author of Cry Like a Man), Nick (Radical Centrist TikTok creator), and faith-based leader Lauren.

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Main Themes

• Embracing tears and suffering for spiritual transformation
• Confronting societal rage, resentment, and nihilism
• The importance of listening, prophetic wisdom, and self-critique
• How to find hope and meaning in uncertain times
• Cultivating love, letting go, and fostering generativity
• Opening emotional vulnerability, particularly in men
• The dangers of ego, certitude, and group narcissism

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Reflections: Tears, Outrage, and the “Tragic Sense” of Life ([00:00]–[06:05])

• Oprah describes the collective unease and “age of outrage,” noting the struggle to find hope amid global disruption.
• Father Richard introduces the book’s title, referencing the Latin "lacrimæ rerum" from Virgil’s Aeneid:

  "Everything seems to be crying. Everything has tears, and everything deserves tears. It was his way of saying what you and I would now call the tragic sense of life. The tragic sense of life, that it can't be ignored. Everybody's life, sooner or later, rushes into tragedy." (Rohr, [03:11])

• Tears come from deep within, beyond intellect or will, and reveal our truest selves.

  “Felt reality is invariably wept reality. And wept reality is soon compassion and kindness, decisive and harsh judgments slip away in the tracks of tears.” (Oprah quoting Rohr, [05:34])

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2. The Dangers of Rage, Resentment, and Nihilism ([06:50]–[10:19])

• Oprah reflects on the cycle of “hurt people hurt people,” emphasizing how staying in rage and resentment injures our souls.
• Rohr links cultural rage to the amygdala and the “nihilism” of postmodern society:

  "We have a whole country of hooked amygdalas." (Rohr, [08:11]) “Once you've destroyed any appreciation for truth … it's all downhill.” (Rohr, [09:15])

• The triumph of ego and the loosening grip on truth underpin the current crisis.

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3. Real Prophecy: The Necessity of Listening and Self-Criticism ([10:26]–[13:55])

• Rohr stresses that authentic prophecy requires a two-way flow—listening as well as speaking:

  “There is no one way prophecy, no speaking without listening … the flow must go both ways or it is not a divine flow.” (Rohr, [10:26])

• True prophets start by critiquing their own group or nation, which America still resists.
• Lack of self-critique and historical whitewashing blocks democracy and healing.

  "You had no democracy before the Civil Rights Act ... people of color know that we white guys are the last ones to know it." (Rohr, [13:32])

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4. Grief as the Path Out of Group Narcissism ([15:26]–[18:04])

• Oprah introduces the book’s theme of “Good Trouble,” inspired by John Lewis.
• Rohr explains that prophets localize evil not in individuals, but in cultures and institutions—group narcissism and structural sin:

  "The prophets localize evil not in individual bad apples, but in the collective culture … you're blind to it. Why? Because everybody's doing it." (Rohr, [16:03])

• Only through grief can the ego be undone and group narcissism dissolved.

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5. Love, Suffering, and Acceptance—Paths to Transformation ([18:13]–[22:19])

• Rohr introduces his framework: transformation occurs through great love and great suffering.

  "Great love and great suffering change the soul. Awaken the soul." (Rohr, [17:11])

• Navigating the “order, disorder, reorder” of faith:

  “If you can put order together with disorder, guess what you end up with? Reorder. That's enlightenment.” (Rohr, [20:38])

• Forgiveness and letting go become natural (the “third half of life”):

  “It's all okay. I can live with it.” (Rohr, [22:19])

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6. Listener Q&A: Bridging Divides and the Sin of Certitude ([22:52]–[32:12])

Guest: Nick, Radical Centrist

• Nick seeks advice for bridging America’s left–right divide, despite backlash from both extremes.
• Rohr counsels:

  "The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certitude. Our job is to be loving … not being certain." (Rohr, [24:10])

• Oprah:

  “I think the key is in humanizing both sides. … If the right thing is coming from a genuine, pure space that is an extension of the love you have for humanity … then it is the right thing to do.” (Oprah, [27:08])

• Rohr warns against naive non-duality: evil must be named, but always responded to with compassion, not anger.

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7. Healing Masculinity, Permission to Grieve ([34:15]–[44:18])

Guest: Jason Wilson, author of Cry Like a Man

• Jason shares how learning to cry transformed his life, broke cycles of repression, and allowed genuine self-love.

  “Tears taught me that I'm human. … tears made me human, it finally allowed me to stop my trauma from time traveling … and escape emotional incarceration.” (Jason Wilson, [35:33]) “Thug is a traumatized human unable to grieve.” (Jason Wilson, [39:16])

• Rohr relates his men’s retreats, where male participants often realize their “anger” is really masked sadness.

  “Sadness hides as anger. … You're not really an angry man, you're just deeply sad. … The whole five day event turned in some ways on that one remark.” (Rohr, [41:24])

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8. Moving Beyond Reward–Punishment, Rediscovering Love ([44:25]–[46:50])

• Rohr critiques how Christianity became reward-punishment focused, fostering fear rather than love.
• He recounts the parable of the angel, carrying fire and water to “burn down the mansions of heaven and put out the fires of hell. Only then will we know who really loves God.” (Rohr, [45:31])
• Only love, not fear of punishment or promise of reward, brings true change.

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9. More Listener Questions: Vulnerability & Prophetic Leadership ([48:23]–[55:54])

Guest: Susie (Dallas)

• Susie asks about the first step toward spiritual vulnerability outside organized religion.
• Rohr:

  “You have to meet a God of limitless love. … When you stop counting, your living not in the kingdoms of this world.” (Rohr, [50:08])

Guest: Lauren (Los Angeles, We Grow LA)

• Lauren asks how a leader creates space for prophetic voices and truth.
• Rohr urges “positive self-critique” and “shadow work”—prophets and leaders must be self-aware and self-correcting.

  "If they aren't capable of healthy self criticism, I wouldn't follow them too far down the plank because they're going to lead you to a not very enlightened place." (Rohr, [54:10])

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10. Closing Reflections: Generative Lives & Champions of Love ([56:04]–[58:28])

• Oprah asks Rohr to define a well-lived life. He values generativity—energizing and liberating others with love:

  “Loving people liberate you. That you don't feel judged around them. You feel affirmed.” (Rohr, [58:04]) “A well lived life is a life of someone who can generate the kind of love that inspires other people to be more loving.” (Oprah, [58:11])

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Notable Quotes

• "Great love and great suffering change the soul. Awaken the soul." — Father Richard Rohr ([01:54], [17:11])
• “Everything seems to be crying. Everything has tears, and everything deserves tears. … Everybody's life, sooner or later, rushes into tragedy.” — Father Rohr ([03:11])
• "If we stay with our rage and resentment too long, we will righteously and unthinkingly pass on the hurt in ever new directions..." — Oprah ([07:07])
• "We have a whole country of hooked amygdalas." — Father Rohr ([08:11])
• “The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certitude.” — Father Rohr ([24:10])
• “Tears taught me that I'm human... it finally allowed me to stop my trauma from time traveling… and escape emotional incarceration.” — Jason Wilson ([35:33])
• "Thug is a traumatized human unable to grieve." — Jason Wilson ([39:16])
• “Sadness hides as anger. … You're not really an angry man, you're just deeply sad.” — Father Rohr ([41:24])
• “Only love wins. Only love changes people. That's obvious.” — Father Rohr ([46:46])
• “You have to meet a God of limitless love. It has to be limitless, it has to be infinite.” — Father Rohr ([50:10])
• “Loving people liberate you. … You feel affirmed.” — Father Rohr ([58:04])

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Memorable Moments & Timestamps

• [03:11] — Rohr explains “lacrimæ rerum” and the tragic sense of life.
• [05:34] — Oprah reads from the book on tears and compassion.
• [13:29] — Rohr & Oprah underscore the illusion of American progress absent real self-critique.
• [17:11] — "Great love and great suffering" as greater than any single religion.
• [22:19] — Rohr on forgiveness, patience, and the “third half of life.”
• [24:10] — Rohr’s distinction: certitude vs. faith, love vs. being right.
• [35:33] — Jason Wilson’s testimony on how crying transformed his life.
• [39:16] — Jason Wilson’s acronym: “thug” as “traumatized human unable to grieve.”
• [41:24] — Rohr on sadness hiding as anger in men; transformative moment in retreats.
• [45:31] — The angel burning heaven and dousing hell—love as the only true motivation.
• [50:10] — Infinite, unconditional love as the spiritual wellspring.
• [54:10] — Rohr on self-critical leadership: “If they aren't capable of healthy self criticism, I wouldn't follow them...”
• [58:04] — Loving people liberate you; generative lives inspire loving in others.

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Conclusion

This episode moves beyond coping with the world's outrage into plumbing spiritual wells of grief, vulnerability, and radical compassion. Through personal stories, theological insights, and listener participation, Oprah and Richard Rohr illuminate a path from sadness to transformation, ego to generativity, and certainty to love. The guiding message is clear: suffering and tears hold transformative power, and living a well-lived life means liberating others through love.

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For more on The Tears of Things or to engage with these themes further, listeners are encouraged to seek out Father Rohr’s book and to foster self-compassion, community dialogue, and hope—especially in turbulent times.

Transcript

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, it is so nice to be with you all here on the Oprah Podcast. I thank you for joining me. I know many people are feeling a sense of unease right now. Maybe you are struggling with navigating so much disruption. I mean, it's hard to watch the news. I mean, I've pulled way back from the news.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Me too.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So, so much disruption going on in the world at work or within your own family. And one of my intentions for this platform is that it is a place for conversation that can uplift, bring some insight, perhaps even enhance your life and give you a fresher perspective or a new way to think about our collective human experience. That's why I'm still talking after all of these years. So for a time, a time such as this, I was thinking to myself, who would be a great person to talk to to about the unease so many of us are feeling right now? Uncertainty. And for good reason. And then I see that one of the great spiritual teachers alive today has written a new book about exactly what was on my mind and I know on a lot of yours. It is my pleasure to welcome once again back to my home for the third time, Father Richard Rohr. In his current New York Times bestselling book is called the Tears of Prophetic Wisdom for an Age of Outrage. Beautiful. The Tears of Things. I know many people feel that we are living in an age of outrage. It's everywhere. Father Richard Rohr was ordained into the priesthood in the Roman Catholic Church in 1970. He is a Franciscan friar, a world renowned author, spiritual teacher, theologian and mystic.

[Father Richard Rohr]

I don't care what your religion is. Great love and great suffering. Change the soul. Awaken the soul.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Father Richard Rohr founded the center for Action and Contemplation in New Mexico and has written 42 books, including the bestsellers Falling Upward and The Universal Christmas. 42 books you've written.

[Father Richard Rohr]

And I'm not really that smart. I'm just. They just come.

[Oprah Winfrey]

There are so many big ideas in the tiers of things that we certainly are not going to have time to cover it all here. But what does the title, the Tiers of Things mean to you?

[Father Richard Rohr]

You know, I was the last generation of priests that had to learn Latin. I was never very good at it. But the great Latin myth that we studied was Virgil's Aeneid. And in the Aeneid, he's a Roman, he goes to Carthage, which was their enemy. He's observing a huge fresco on the wall and it's a whole field of dead soldiers.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Father Richard Rohr]

And he uses a phrase that, I'm told, is by far the most quoted phrase in Latin literature. And it seems, at first hearing, so innocent. I'll quote the Latin, don't be impressed. Lacrimay rerum. The Spanish speakers will recognize lacrima as their word also for tears. But in he's observing this, that everything seems to be crying. Everything has tears, and everything deserves tears. It was his way of saying what you and I would now call the tragic sense of life. The tragic sense of life, that it can't be ignored. Everybody's life, sooner or later rushes into tragedy. Yeah. So I knew for most people, they won't have all the connotation. But thank you for liking it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I liked it. And I was asking you before we started this, did the title come first, or does the title come as you're processing?

[Father Richard Rohr]

If I'd be honest?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Father Richard Rohr]

It was in my mind for years. I've got to write a book call.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The Tears of Things. Yes.

[Father Richard Rohr]

And it came in my end of my life. Yeah. I do think it's my last book.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You do?

[Father Richard Rohr]

I do.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And why do you think it's your last book?

[Father Richard Rohr]

Well, first my age, but in some ways it sums up my thinking, my spiritual teaching. I. I want to be honest about how. How most people have to suffer. The animals now are suffering, the planet is suffering, so it's spreading to every level. And this generic term, the tears of things, not just the tears of humans. Although they say we're the only ones who formally cry. As a Christian, of course, I knew Jesus words. How happy are those who weep? We think, is he crazy? What's happy about that? But I think.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Yeah, but I think it's a transformative movement inside the soul.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You write this about tears. You say felt reality is invariably wept. Reality. That's a beautiful line. And wept reality is soon compassion and kindness, decisive and harsh judgments slip away in the tracks of. Of tears. And when we cry, we are revealing our truest, most loving self. So how do tears connect us to our true self, do you think?

[Father Richard Rohr]

Because they come unbidden out of the unconscious, Most people just suddenly have to wipe away their tears. They're a little embarrassed by it because it is an object of the will or the intellectual. It comes from somewhere else than intellect and will. Both positive tears of joy and tears of sadness.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. When they're spontaneous, it comes from a place you don't even know.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Yeah, that's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You can't even explain that.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Yeah, you got it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And it. And people wipe them away because it feels unnatural.

[Father Richard Rohr]

A little yeah. Yes, particularly. You know, my men's work led me to this. Particularly men. Yeah, you women are better at it. Oh, yeah, we are much better.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Except I remember many years on the Oprah Show, I would. I had gotten to the point where I could feel people's stories. Not just hear people's stories, but I was feeling. I was feeling people's stories. And my friend Gail called me up one day and she said, you're crying too much. You have to stop this crying. I go, I'm just. I'm just feeling. I'm. I'm feeling. She goes, well, you need to shut down some of those feelings. Cause you're feeling too much. And here's the thing. I was so moved by this line, moved in, that I thought, aha. This is so true. If we stay with our rage and resentment too long, and you all listening to me right now, take this in. If we stay with our rage and resentment too long, we will righteously and unthinkingly pass on the hurt in ever new directions. And we injure our own souls in ways we don't even recognize. This is killing our post modern world. When I read that, I had a big aha. Because I went, wow, this is why we are where we are. Because there's so much rage and resentment that people have now taken on as their righteous judgment and have just passed on those hurt feelings. Yeah, you know, we say that, that phrase all the time. People hurt people, hurt people. But this sums it up, I think, more accurately.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Well, it does. You know, I know it's an ugly and not common word, but biologists, medical teachers speak of the amygdala, and that's the part of your nervous system that gets hooked whenever someone is speaking to you angrily or fearfully. And I know it's an ugly phrase, but I think we have a whole country of hooked amygdalas.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And why do you think there is so much rage and resentment?

[Father Richard Rohr]

One of the most unfortunate results of what we call postmodernism. Postmodernism is basically saying, okay, we tried all of these philosophies and theologies and religions, but basically none of them work. And that's called nihilism. Nihilism is a Latin word. I'm not trying to impress you with my Latin, but it was forced on me. Nihil means nothing. And we live in a very nihilistic country when heads of state can get away with telling demonstrable lies, obvious lies, and people don't just accept it, but applaud, applaud. You're in A nihilistic culture. And once you've destroyed any appreciation for truth, once that's gone, it's all downhill. I mean, I don't mean to be pessimistic, but you can't walk around telling total lies and build a culture or build a civilization or build a healthy psyche or build a healthy family. When truth is whatever I want to be the truth, what takes over is not just the amygdala, but the ego.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, that's what I think has happened, is that the ego has landed and is in full force right now. Full force in every area that we can see the egos in feel.

[Father Richard Rohr]

And we're not being political except by effect. We're being just realistic and honest.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, yes, yes. You feel that people today need to win too much, you say, and I think you're so right. I love this line that you have. You say, there is no one way prophecy, no speaking without listening, you say. And he also says, you're reminding me.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Of things I forgot I wrote. Yeah, go ahead, go ahead.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you say the flow must go both ways or it is not a divine flow. Is this what's creating so much of the turmoil that we're seeing?

[Father Richard Rohr]

You think I like your honing in on both ways?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Once you're in the flow, it both flows in with some ease and out with some ease. If you're always putting out and never listening to other people or letting them influence you, that's not true prophecy.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, it's not true prophecy.

[Father Richard Rohr]

No. We've largely neglected the prophets. And that was what led me to write the book that for 37 years out at our center in New Mexico, I taught the Jewish prophets. And each time I'd go through it, I'd say, why aren't more people teaching this? The prophets have had very little effect on Judaism and they're honest about that. As Jesus said, you're going to kill all the prophets and you're going to kill me. And his most quoted line about the prophets is this. No prophet is honored in his own country. You're familiar with?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, yes. Why a prophet knows no honor in his own homeland is how I learned it.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Very good.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Why? Because a prophet is always, first of all, critical of his own self, his own agenda, his own tribe, his own country. And we have a politic that seems to be incapable of self criticism.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So what do you think's gonna happen if you have a. You spoke earlier about the truth and about where the truth is annihilated. The culture and the country becomes destroyed. And you spoke about where we are right now. What do you think is actually going to happen to us?

[Father Richard Rohr]

I can't play the prophet myself, but you can't go on a course this long without self destructing. It's not going to be an enemy from without. It's going to be massive disillusionment from within. Exactly how that's going to happen, I don't know. But we Americans who thought we were so great, and I don't need to tell you, but we were able to do that by denying how we treated the indigenous people, how he treated the black people, while sharing about our democracy. You know, I mean, democracy didn't even seriously begin till the 1960s. That's what happens when you have no healthy self criticism.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You had no democracy before the Civil Rights Act. You had none.

[Father Richard Rohr]

When you can't see your own.

[Oprah Winfrey]

For, for, for all of its citizens of color, you certainly had none.

[Father Richard Rohr]

You had. And see, people of color know that we white guys are the last ones to know it. We really naively presumed everybody was free and everybody was in charge of their own destiny. We can't do that anymore.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And for a lot of people, it doesn't matter if everybody isn't free. If they are. That's, that's the problem we're having.

[Father Richard Rohr]

It hurts too much. Yeah, it's too true.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But you know it's true.

[Father Richard Rohr]

You. Yeah, it's too true.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It doesn't matter if everybody isn't free, as long as you feel that you are. That's, that's what we're seeing.

[Father Richard Rohr]

That's the triumph of the ego.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I thank you so much for spending your very valuable time with us here on the Oprah Podcast. When we come back, Father Rohr shares his wisdom on how to show up for others with compassion.

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[Father Richard Rohr]

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[Oprah Winfrey]

Welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. I am so glad you're here. I. I am talking with Father Richard Rohr. He explains why embracing our tears is essential in order to feel more deeply and to see more clearly. You titled the introduction of this book Good Trouble.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Good Trouble. You know who I got that from?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, from Congressman John Lewis. And you warn about group narcissism. Do you think that's where we are.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Right now in this country? Definitely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That we are in a group narcissistic. Collective narcissistic.

[Father Richard Rohr]

And when you got to a later chapter like Amos.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Father Richard Rohr]

One of the great things I try to make clear in the book, and it isn't hard to prove at all, I'm just amazed more people haven't preceded me, is the prophets localize evil not in individual bad apples, but in the collective culture. Structural sin, institutional injustice, that you're blind to it. Why? Because everybody's doing it. And I've all agreed it's wonderful. And this is key to understanding the prophets.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, so this group narcissism, how do we. How do we break free of it?

[Father Richard Rohr]

You usually. Through grief.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Father Richard Rohr]

I mean, eventually grief hits every life, but you have to taste it. You have to, we used to say, drink your tears.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Father Richard Rohr]

You have to learn its lesson. How can life be so sad? A lot of us experience it. The death of our parents or the death of a child. It always has to be uncalled for, unworthy, unnamed, and then it haunts you for years to come. That undoes the ego. I always say there's two universal paths of transformation, bigger than Christianity, bigger than any single religion. Great love and great suffering. They have the capacity to change every human being. I don't care what your religion is. Great love and great suffering change the soul. Awaken the soul awakens the soul. Yeah. And if you never love anybody or anything, if you never care for anybody enough to weep for them, you'll pretty much stay how you were at 17.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. And also, if you never have any suffering or know any suffering or empathize with anyone else's suffering. Yes.

[Father Richard Rohr]

You named it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Father Richard Rohr]

You named it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You've been critical of your own faith, Catholicism. How do you turn over in your mind and in your heart all the atrocities along with all the good works done by the Catholic Church?

[Father Richard Rohr]

Well, thank God I was educated first of all in the lives of the saints and the good works of the Church. It was admittedly one side of the story. It was later in my life when things like the Inquisition and the pedophile scandal were revealed to us Catholics. So I got a good dose of the positive. Our philosophical tradition, our theological tradition. They held me fast. I, I think I use in the book Oprah. Correct me if it didn't stick with you and my big three level change is you have to begin with order. Then you have to have the courage to admit into your ordered universe that you were given in Mississippi, I was given in Kansas. Yeah, both of us raised nice little conservative Christians. But that stabilizes the psyche. Yeah, there is meaning in the universe. There is order. But then what came along for me exactly at the right time in the 60s was a huge dose of disorder. For us. It was a civil rights movement, the anti Vietnam movement, which began to expose the shadow side, as Carl Jung calls it, the shadow side of the everything. That's another way of saying the tears of things. Yes, everything. And I'm going to say everything has a shadow side. You have the courage to admit that if you've had a good dose of the first good side order. Now, if you can put order together with disorder, guess what you end up with? Reorder. That's enlightenment, where you don't try to eliminate disorder anymore. You don't try to even. It's going to be shocking to a Christian. You don't even try to eliminate sin. You're not surprised at it. It's a universal phenomenon. We hope we'd sin a little less, but when you see how poorly we've localized sin, always in someone else, another group, they're sinful, accusatory and judgmental about other people.

[Oprah Winfrey]

One of the things I appreciated you said that now that you have reached 83, you've learned that you have to forgive almost everything.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Almost everything. It's one big sweep. But not thinking of it is forgiving. It's just a patience with things.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I don't call it forgiving. I call it for me, well, I'm 71. And for me it's not forgiving as much as it is a letting go and allowing, just allowing perfect to letting.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Go and allowing, giving up our control.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Needs, giving up that I have any control over any of it. And Just letting people be whoever they are and accepting them exactly where they.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Are, thinking, I can't love it till it meets my definition of order and control.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's right.

[Father Richard Rohr]

You'll never love anybody.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's right. Unless you allow them to be.

[Father Richard Rohr]

You got it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's it.

[Father Richard Rohr]

I love forgiving everything. Not consciously. It comes naturally. Now, I talked to you in one of my earlier talks about the two halves of life. I'm. Now, this isn't good mathematics, but I'm calling it the third half of life, which there can't be. But the third half of life is just. It's all okay. It's all okay. I can live with it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Somebody was talking to me about yesterday. Way somebody was dressing or looking at. It's all fine. It's all good.

[Father Richard Rohr]

See, you're there at 71.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Made it at 71. Well, we have Richard Rohr here. I knew we'd have listeners who have questions for you around your new book, the Tears of Things. Nick is zooming in with us from Utah High. Nick, I hear you start it. You started a TikTok channel in hopes of helping bridge the divide between the left and the right. Tell us about that.

[Nick (TikTok Creator, Radical Centrist)]

Yeah, no, thank you. And thank you both so much for having me on. I really appreciate it. As Oprah said, I started this TikTok channel called the Radical Centrist, hoping to bridge the divide. Right. I feel like it's gotten to a point where it's. It's. It's really scary. And as I've done this, I've had some success. The left and the right need each other, but without them, we lose the moral friction that makes democracy work. America doesn't need a red team or a blue team. It needs.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Needs both.

[Nick (TikTok Creator, Radical Centrist)]

But the more success I have, the more hate I receive. Right. The extremes really don't.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Right. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The more hate. Did you say more hate?

[Nick (TikTok Creator, Radical Centrist)]

The more hate.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right.

[Nick (TikTok Creator, Radical Centrist)]

So the extreme. Really feel that I'm just enabling evil on the other side.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Both sides feel that way.

[Nick (TikTok Creator, Radical Centrist)]

Both sides, Yeah. I do think it's a vocal minority, but it's very, very vocal. And so sometimes it's. It's really hard to know because these are. In my opinion, they're. A lot of them are just really good people. But. And so. And so it's hard to know whether or not I'm doing the right thing in doing this, saying we should bridge the divide and see the humanity in the other side. So my question for you, Father Rohr, is what advice would you give those of us that are Trying to bridge this divide, whether that's at home, whether it's on a TikTok channel, whether it's at work. And then how do we know if we are doing it in the right way? Because that we don't want to be doing it the wrong way, you know?

[Father Richard Rohr]

Yeah. Let me start with this. I mean, you just set me up for an hour lecture, which I promise not to give you, that the opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certitude. And after the enlightenment, 17th, 18th century, we, even, we Christians felt that our job was to be certain. No, our job is to be loving. That's different now. Once you've localized evil and you've. They are the evil country, they are the evil religion. If it's so bad now, they are the evil gender. You know, we do this to one another. Yeah. You don't want to be disallowed. That localization. I like the way the world is situated. Good people are here, bad people are there. Don't make me change my mind. Do you see the love affair with certitude? It's. It's not loving God. I'm sorry. It's not love. It's certainly not loving your neighbor. It's not even loving yourself. It's loving your ideas about things. And we Catholics made that mistake too long. So we're very impatient with it. When we see other people repeating our heresy, it doesn't make for happy people or content people or alive people. I don't think. Yeah. Am I answering your question at all?

[Nick (TikTok Creator, Radical Centrist)]

I think so. Yeah. No, I. So then if I'm applying that to myself, I have a pretty strong belief that there are good people on both sides. I know Republicans that I love and I know Democrats that I love, you know, for speaking specifically to America. How do I avoid that sin of certainty, if you want to call it that. And yet how do I know if I'm doing the right thing? Those seem to be at odds with each other.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What's at odds? I'm trying to understand what's at odds, Nick.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Good.

[Nick (TikTok Creator, Radical Centrist)]

So the idea. So I need certainty that I'm doing the right thing.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right.

[Nick (TikTok Creator, Radical Centrist)]

So if I'm going to keep on reaching out to the other side or both sides and saying, hey, we need to be kind to each other, it takes a certain level of conviction and certainty to do that.

[Father Richard Rohr]

So is that true?

[Nick (TikTok Creator, Radical Centrist)]

To have that certainty?

[Father Richard Rohr]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Is it okay for him to have that certitude? That the right thing to do is. Is to try to get both Sides to. You know, I think the key is in humanizing both sides. That's good, is in humanizing both sides. When I can see your humanity, when I can see that you feel the same sadness and the same sorrow for the same things that I feel sadness for, you want the same accomplishments, to experience the same joys with your children. There's a commonality that we all have in the human experience. So my. My way through these podcasts and through everything else I've done that also gets lots of criticism, is to actually humanize and to see the other person and the other side as, as. As. As myself, as my equal, as, as. As a human. And I think, you know, you're doing the right thing. If the right thing is coming from a genuine, pure space that is an extension of the love you have for humanity. So you're not doing it because you're trying to get TikTok followers. You're not doing it if you're doing it in any way. Because this has been my experience. I check my ego for all things, right? I don't do one damn thing if I can help it, that I'm acting out of my ego, because I know that's gonna come back to me in an egotistic or a way that is gonna be harmful to me. So I think the part of the answer that you're looking for is to search within yourself for the pure intention and reason why you're doing it. I admire your courage and your bravery because, I mean, I just have, you know, left a lot of social stuff alone and come off social media because the. The. The backlash or the hatred and the vitriol is so. Is more than I can stand. I can't bear it. It's why we don't have comments on this YouTube channel, because you just be fighting all of the negative stuff all the time, the crazy stuff, the conspiracy theories, the, you know, all the. All. All. All that stuff. So I admire you for doing it, but if you're doing it for the right reasons, then it is the right thing to do because the world needs people like you, especially right now. So what is your purest, purest intention in doing it?

[Nick (TikTok Creator, Radical Centrist)]

I mean, it's got. I think it has to be love. It does.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, expand more on that for us. Why does it have to be love? Why? Why?

[Nick (TikTok Creator, Radical Centrist)]

Because anything else is. I can't find a pure force. Right. I mean, anger makes me make a lot of mistakes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Correct.

[Nick (TikTok Creator, Radical Centrist)]

Love is a lot more humble, I could admit when I moved. And then, I don't know I. I mean, I always go back to that. That quote from Martin Luther King. That was love. Hate cannot throw out hate. Only love can do that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, right.

[Nick (TikTok Creator, Radical Centrist)]

I want to be that, but it is hard to say, stay in that space. It's really, really difficult.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And so Martin Luther King didn't have TikTok. Right? He didn't have TikTok. He had all the other haters trying to bomb his house and kill him and his family. But he did. But he didn't have. He didn't have the ongoing visceral reaction every day from people coming at you with their meanness and their intention to take you down.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Yeah. Let me throw this into the mix. It doesn't cover every base, but you first have to succeed at dualistic clarity. Like, it was this same president who said it wasn't Charlottesville. Well, there are good people on both sides. That sounds like fuzzy, soft thinking. So I don't have to take a stand. First you have to say, no, this is objectively good and this is objectively bad. Then you get to what the Eastern religions would call non duality first dualistic. Jesus himself, God and mammon and so forth. He's very dualistic about the big issues. But then when it comes to practical everyday living. You said it a minute ago. The response to both of them, the one you like and the one you don't like, is love. That's the dance that I think an authentic believer has to do, has to not be naive about evil and evil's capacity to hurt people, because otherwise we're going to get in real trouble saying, oh, there's good people on both sides. Well, yes, but a lot of them are doing some bad stuff that must be named. Evil must be named. And that was the genius of the prophets. They critiqued Israel first. They critiqued themselves first. And then they said, but. And they learned this through tears. That's my thesis in the whole book. Through sadness, they move from anger to sadness. That movement from anger to sadness to compassion is the transformative movement of the prophets.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm gonna send you an autograph signed copy of Tears of Things from Fr. Rohr. And I think if you read it and you actually look at many of the lessons from the prophets, because what you're establishing yourself to be, what you are journeying in this lifetime to be, is someone who can moderate both sides. And I think taking lessons from people who've done it over the ages will be really beneficial to you. And I have to say, I admire your willingness to take it on me, too.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Thank you, Nick.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you, Nick. All right. We're going to autograph a book to Nick and get it to you.

[Father Richard Rohr]

All right. Easy, easy, easy peasy.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you, Nick. Thank you, dear listener. I just thank you for spending your time with us here on the OPRAH podcast. When we return, we're going to hear from Jason Wilson. He's the author of the book Cry Like a Man.

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

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[Oprah Winfrey]

I am so glad you've joined me here on the OPRAH Podcast. I'm here with Father Richard Rohr, a New York Times bestselling author and Franciscan friar. He shares decades of wisdom in his latest book, the Tears of Things. Bestselling author Jason Wilson is joining us. Hi, Jason.

[Jason Wilson (Author of Cry Like a Man)]

How you doing? Oprah. How you doing, Father Roy? Good stuff?

[Susie (Listener/Question Asker)]

Fine.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Better now.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay. He once went viral with his empowering message to a young boy when he assured him it's okay to cry. That thing went all over the world.

[Jason Wilson (Author of Cry Like a Man)]

Why you crying? That's what this is about, son. It's okay to cry. We cry as many.

[Nick (TikTok Creator, Radical Centrist)]

Why you crying, though, son?

[Jason Wilson (Author of Cry Like a Man)]

Tell me why you cryin'? It's hard to test for a reason.

[Father Richard Rohr]

But why are you crying?

[Jason Wilson (Author of Cry Like a Man)]

Go ahead, sir.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Because.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What? Because it's hard to.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Okay, good.

[Jason Wilson (Author of Cry Like a Man)]

But you did it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And Jason, you've also written a book called Cry Like a Man, so I know you're going to love the tears of things. What was your question for Father Rohr?

[Jason Wilson (Author of Cry Like a Man)]

My question was, well, before you ask.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That question, I want to ask, how did finally learning how to cry change your life?

[Jason Wilson (Author of Cry Like a Man)]

Well, my tears taught me that I'm human. You know, so often growing up in my community, especially as me and as Father Roy shared earlier, we're trained by misconstrued mantras like, big boys don't cry. What doesn't kill you can only make you stronger. And no pain, no gain. And as a result of that, we repress our emotions. And then, Oprah, when I discovered that tears not only contain 98% water, but also stress hormones that get excreted from our bodies when we cry. So my work with boys, Oprah, here it is. We're telling boys not to cry. And then we wonder why when they get to a certain age that they don't want know how to express themselves. So for me, when I was able to, you know, share the. The misleading mantras and really understand that tears made me human, it finally allowed me to stop my trauma from time traveling and then to grieve without embarrassment, without shame. I was able to finally love myself, my family, and my friends without limits, and most importantly, escape emotional incarceration.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I love that. Escape emotional incarceration. And didn't it open up so many avenues? I mean, I was just having a conversation recently with the gentleman who runs the Hoffman Institute who was saying that he was raised as a young boy not to cry. And that many years later, when his mother was dying and he was crying in the car about that, his father, who had taught him not to cry, said, can you teach me how to cry?

[Father Richard Rohr]

Wow.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Can you teach me how to cry? And he said he did. He was able to help. His father told his father that when he start to feeling the emotion, instead of shutting down, just open up and go into that feeling and allow it to take over. And to know that it's only going to last for 10 or 15 minutes, that it's not, you're not going to be crying the rest of your life. And that his father learning how to cry during the death of his wife that he'd been married to all those years really changed the grieving process, but also opened up an aperture for joy. So I've shared that story with you to just ask that question. Did your learning to cry also open up the aperture for experiencing other emotions in your relationships?

[Jason Wilson (Author of Cry Like a Man)]

Oh, absolutely, Oprah. I often teach my boys and men that I work with that we tend to gravitate toward the eight box of crayons versus the 64 box. And I compare those two emotions that we're both given as being in women, but we're typically as men. As Father Roy tell you, we go towards anger, frustration, and fear. But what about the other emotions? And so being married 26 years now, I had to learn that when my wife is requesting violet, all I could give her was purple. When she wanted lime, I had to figure out a way to make green and yellow match the color. And I said, wait a minute, this is a major issue with communication. And I learned how to not only process my emotions, but become a verbal processor expressing the true feeling behind the emotion instead of always going to the surface emotion, which I call anger. And so I was repressing all of this pain and working with boys. I realized later on why the word thug was really popular. And I made an acronym, because what I saw wasn't a gangster. I saw a traumatized human unable to grieve. And so when I helped them process their pain and emotions and gave them the freedom to feel and show them the power of tears, they were finally able to release and grieve and live better and fuller lives.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Boy, that made my eyes water. Thug is a traumatized human unable to grieve. Wow. That reorders.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Reorder.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That reorders the meaning and definition of that word. Thank you for sharing that. Jason, what was your question? Did you have a question for Father Roy?

[Jason Wilson (Author of Cry Like a Man)]

Yeah, absolutely. I want to ask you as someone who also works closely with men, helping them process their emotions and release trauma. You know, I'm curious because I read some of your work with men in retreats and helping them open up. What practices and approaches have you found to be the most effective in helping men be transparent and emotionally open?

[Father Richard Rohr]

The most universal one, discovered by all of the world, religious, is some form of mindfulness. And you see the games your mind plays. You have to observe it. It sounds so passive. But once you see it, you can't not see it. That you prefer the negative or you prefer problem solving, or you prefer being antagonistic, scapegoating others. Once you recognize your patterns, you see they're everywhere. For years, up at Ghost Ranch in New Mexico, where I live, I gave these five day events called men's rites of passage. And the turning point, I'm not exaggerating, for many men was on the third day, which we call the day of grief. And I had learned this. I'm not making this up, it sounds like a dramatic story, but I visited the Maasai in Africa and the Chief who had read some of my stuff, he gave two warriors permission to walk me around the path that a young warrior had to walk to be initiated. And the most moving part was the caves of grief. And these two tough looking guys with spears and shields and they, they got even soft spoken as we approached these caves. And they said, here, Father, we had to learn how to cry. And I would explain to the group and say the turning phrase was when I would say, many of you thought your father was an angry man, and maybe he was. Many of you think you are an angry man and maybe you are. But now listen closely. They'd lean forward. This is. By the third day, they were teachable. And I said, many of you are not angry, you're sad. And it just. You could see the jolt of recognition. Sadness hides as anger. But once you give permission, a man, at least women have permission already, but we have to give men permission. You're not really an angry man, you're just deeply sad. The whole five day event turned in some ways on that one remark because they wanted to discover the source of their tears. And that led to this book. Tears.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Tears of things. I can see that resonated with you, Jason.

[Jason Wilson (Author of Cry Like a Man)]

Yeah, I, I have so many questions. My male program, I teach boys emotional stability training. It's called the Cave of Adullam. And so when I read about the caves of Grief and your work with the Maasai warriors, that really hit me hard. And I got the name from David when he was ran from King Saul to hide from him because he was trying to kill him. And the history tells us that 400 men came unto David, who was distressed, discontented and in debt. And he became a captain. What's interesting, when you tie this caves of grief in, I always ponder like, well, what happened in this cave. Because those same men came out as mighty men of valor, so they didn't need to train to fight. Because Father more, am I right? They already were warriors. And so you're telling me that these men, they would, they would have to. As a part of the rite of passage, they would have to learn how to cry in these caves.

[Father Richard Rohr]

It felt like that's what they were saying. Now I, I would have then had to ask, how do they do that? Because I know you can't program tears. We in the church tried to do it, but they didn't come from a deep place too often.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Jason, I can see you all could have a conversation all day long.

[Father Richard Rohr]

I need his number.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I could see that that could go on. Thank you for joining Us. And thank you for writing your book.

[Father Richard Rohr]

What a delight.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Cry like a man. Cry like a man. Well, you say in the book human beings are really made of love and for love, and we still don't know it. We are made of love for love, and we still don't know it. Why do you think people still can't get it? I mean, I think we humans are missing the point, especially now and when everybody is just, you know, attacking everybody else.

[Father Richard Rohr]

I thought, wow, most Christians hear self criticism, but I hope you don't hear it coming from a negative place. We substituted a reward, punishment scenario. Apocalyptic dualism. Forgive the two big words at the end of our lives. And it largely created fear of God, not love of God. I don't know if you got to the end of the book. The story of the angel walking through the streets of the world. Yes, Now I'll just finish it. Since I started it, I used to use this in a lot of major talks, and people said they never forgot it. The angel walking through the streets of the world has a pail of water and a torch of fire. And people, of course, ask, what are you going to do with that torch and that pail? And the angel is supposed to say, I'm here to burn down the mansions of heaven and to put out the fires of hell. Only then will we know who really loves God. We've got to get beyond this reward punishment scenario because it makes us think that our job is to decide who deserves the reward and who deserves the punishment. And it makes Christians inherently judgmental. The first 2000 years, society itself was too violent, as we see from our own history of enslavement, to hear that we just couldn't hear it. And feudalism couldn't hear it, and the war centuries couldn't hear it. But there's more and more people who can hear that. That, as you both have been saying, only love wins. Only love changes people. That's obvious.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, I. I don't know what it's going to take.

[Father Richard Rohr]

What's going to take?

[Oprah Winfrey]

I don't know.

[Father Richard Rohr]

A reward punishment system will not change people. It makes them afraid of God and hate their neighbor with impunity. God wants me to hate those people. Whatever those.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Whatever their label is. Yes. When we return, we're going to hear from guests who were personally transformed by Father Richard Rohr's teachings, and he shares advice on how to increase joy in our everyday lives.

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[Oprah Winfrey]

Welcome back to the OPRAH Podcast. I'm glad to be here with you all and glad you're here. This is my third time talking with spiritual teacher and mystic Father Richard Rohr. This time I want to ask him at 82, how does he define a well lived life? Well, Susie now joins us from Dallas, Texas. And you say that Father Rohr's teachings are what actually made you feel loved by God. That is big.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Oh, I hope so.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's big. What's your question? First of all, tell us how his teachings help you feel loved by God.

[Susie (Listener/Question Asker)]

I've been following Father Richard for over 10 years. I really sort of found myself brought to my knees by some things in my life. But personally and professionally, that that kind of happened at that time. And I think intuitively I knew that I needed God and I just, I needed something greater than myself and I just didn't know where to turn. I think I learned of you through Rob Bell. And you know, I read several of your books and I have been getting your daily newsletter and it just always resonates so deeply with me. I, I mean, often your readings bring me to tears because it just touches me in a place that nothing else has.

[Father Richard Rohr]

It says more about you than me. But thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you have a question, Susie?

[Susie (Listener/Question Asker)]

I do. In the book you've quoted in the introduction, you said, my hope is that this small book might accelerate the pace of human and spiritual vulnerability by encouraging each of us to take a first daring step. And so I guess My question for you is what might that step be for those of us outside of organized religion who I don't always feel like I have the words necessarily to speak about faith outside of religion. And how can we help sort of push this forward?

[Father Richard Rohr]

You have to meet a God of limitless love. It has to be limitless, it has to be infinite. But I'm told the human mind, just like it's hooked by the amygdala, it is positively hooked up by unconditional love. And you have to have at least had a taste of that. But I'm told the human mind can't imagine infinite things, can't. So we portion love out who's worthy of it, who's ready for it, who deserves it, who deserves it. When you stop counting, your living not in the kingdoms of this world. The kingdoms of this world are all about counting, measuring, weighing, the kingdom of God as Jesus would call it, the whole game of mathematics falls apart. You, you can't compute anymore. Now if you're not willing to let that be done to your mind, to live in an infinite sea of mercy where all counting is meaningless. Meaningless. You'll never be a mystic, you'll never be a non dual enjoyer. And I believe we have to re situate Christianity and joy, not threat. And that's why I told the story of the angel traveling the streets of the world. A lot of us grew up with threat. Threat does not get you there. But it's the way most of us certainly I in the 40s and 50s in Kansas where I grew up, I had very loving parents, but they did threaten us a lot.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Susie, thank you for that. Thank you for your question and thank you for being a.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

A follower and a reader and being inspired by Father Roar.

[Susie (Listener/Question Asker)]

Thank you, thank you, thank you both.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thanks for joining us. God bless you.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Next we have Lauren, founder of We Grow la, a nonprofit in Los Angeles that builds spaces of access of hope and belonging. Lauren, what's your question for Father Roy today? You look so gorgeous today.

[Lauren (Faith-Based Community Leader)]

Oh, thank you. I'm so happy to be here. I'm learning so much, soaking it all in. My question is, as a faith based community leader in today's society, how do I make sure that I'm a listening ear for prophetic voices in a way that really creates a culture that surrounds truth seeking honesty, prophetic messages, even if it is not consistent with what my original plans are for the organization.

[Father Richard Rohr]

What you have to develop in yourself and in your group is a capacity for positive self criticism. And once you learn how to positively critique your own games, your own shadow. But with the shadow is not evil. We learn this from. Well, Jesus talked about the splinter in other people's eyes and the log in your own. He was teaching us the same thing. But if you don't do shadow work, you end up unself critical. And why would you listen to an unself critical person? Because they'll never see their filters, their agendas, their obsessions. That's certainly much of the first, I'm going to say 45, 50 years of life learning just how to do that without shaming the self, without hating the self, just recognizing. Well, Richard, you've got your own faults too. You've got your own blind spots.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And this is what you need to work on for yourself.

[Father Richard Rohr]

That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Or lens is not clear enough. You've got your Achilles heel looking at.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The moat in your own eye.

[Father Richard Rohr]

There you go. Yeah, it's. This hasn't been taught. You know, I assume maybe you're familiar with St. Paul. In the Scriptures he talks about the second most important of the charismatic gifts of the gifts of the spirit is the gift of prophecy. And we haven't even allowed it, taught it. He speaks of schools of prophets where you have to be trained in how to positively self critique. And if you're politician, you're preacher, priest. If they aren't capable of healthy self criticism, I wouldn't follow them too far down the plank because they're going to lead you to a not very enlightened place. They'll always have localized evil in another race, another religion, another gender, another neighborhood, another. We don't have time for that anymore. We really, we just don't.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Did you get your question answered?

[Lauren (Faith-Based Community Leader)]

I did, I did. It sounds well, how I'm interpreting it is the first thing for me to do is, you know, remain in a self evaluation state.

[Father Richard Rohr]

That's a good word.

[Lauren (Faith-Based Community Leader)]

Yeah. And then also before accepting, you know, messaging from others to make sure that it's identifiable that they are also in that state as well.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yep, you got it.

[Lauren (Faith-Based Community Leader)]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Received it. Thank you, Lauren. Thank you for the question.

[Lauren (Faith-Based Community Leader)]

Thank you so much.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I love how your green matches the plants in the background. That's great. Perfect outfit.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Thank you for a nice smile.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you.

[Lauren (Faith-Based Community Leader)]

Have a good one.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you. So I often end our conversations here with this question. I know for sure. I need to ask you of all people, how do you define a well lived life?

[Father Richard Rohr]

Father Rohr, you know who used the word generative? Was that Eric Erickson? I'm not sure it doesn't matter. But you're delighted when you're around generative people who generate other people, other movements, other things than their own. I was just at a conference in Boston for Champions of Love, a rather pretentious title, but God, was I energized after being with them for five days. They're all doing.

[Oprah Winfrey]

They deserve the title.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Yeah, they deserve the title. And they were just so positive, so loving, even though every one of them was addressing major social ills. Bryan Stevenson, the Lynching Museum Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And I've been there.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I did the first story about it for 60 minutes. It was great.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Father Greg Boyle with the homeboy working with the Hispanic street boys of Los Angeles. God, do we think like. But he's so generative with it. It's the biggest street boy, if I can use that phrase, organization in the world. And that's his, what he's generated.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you came away from these, this conference with all of these people who are generating, who are champions of love.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Champions of love.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you felt championed yourself. You felt inspired, opened up, elevated. Yes.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Loving people liberate you. That you don't feel judged around them. You feel affirmed.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So a well lived life is a life of someone who can generate the kind of love that inspires other people to be more loving. That's what it sounds like you're saying.

[Father Richard Rohr]

And it sounds like a cliche, doesn't it? But it's true.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But it's true. It's so true.

[Father Richard Rohr]

It's so true.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Always a joy to talk to you. Thank you, Father Richard Rohrer. This book is called the Tears of Things. Thank you to my guest Nick and Jason, who could have still been talking to you, Susie and Lauren, for sharing your stories and your thoughtful questions. The Tears of Things is available wherever books are sold. It's a call of action for all of us to love more. To love more. Go well, everybody. Thank you.

[Father Richard Rohr]

You're a delight always.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you. You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.