Sophie Chen Keller: "Little Wonder" | Oprah's Book Club

Summary

The Oprah Podcast – Sophie Chen Keller: "Little Wonder" | Oprah’s Book Club

Date: June 16, 2026
Host: Oprah Winfrey
Guest: Sophie Chen Keller
Episode Theme: Exploring motherhood, music, resilience, and class through Sophie Chen Keller’s novel “Little Wonder,” Oprah’s 124th Book Club selection.

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Oprah Podcast centers around the selection of Sophie Chen Keller’s “Little Wonder” as Oprah’s Book Club pick. The conversation deeply explores the inspirations behind the novel, particularly themes of motherhood, sacrifice, the transformative power of music, and class division, both within the story set in Beijing and Keller’s own lived experiences. Audience members join the discussion to share personal connections and ask probing questions about craft, structure, cultural context, and the realities of parenting and perseverance.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Inspiration: Motherhood and Exhaustion

[00:00–00:40, 10:03–12:23]

• Keller draws from her personal experiences as a new mother to write “Little Wonder.”
• She describes the intensity and isolation of early motherhood:

  “For the first two years of my son’s life, I was just completely consumed by mothering in the very best ways and also in challenging ways." (Sophie, 00:01)

• Motherhood disrupted her sense of self but eventually led her back to writing when her son started daycare.
• Writing became a way to process and reclaim her voice:

  "I just had the sense that my life no longer belonged to me. I missed my old life and my old self." (Sophie, 00:26)

2. Building the Book: Moving to Beijing and Noticing the Invisible

[06:56–09:30]

• Keller moved to Beijing in 2019. Observing daily life there—specifically the lives of countless delivery workers—sparked the backstory for her protagonist, Song.
• She shares a striking memory:

  “I remember the first time I saw a beggar collecting change, not in a Styrofoam cup, but with a QR code, and you would scan it and just send the money directly into their mobile wallet.” (Sophie, 07:38)

• These observations illuminated the disparities of modern China, fueling the class themes in the novel.

3. Music as Identity and Motif

[03:10, 19:33–20:35, 30:30–31:54, 45:25–47:56]

• The protagonist, River, is a piano prodigy who perceives everyday sounds as music notes—a trait reflected in Keller’s own musical upbringing.
• Audience member Shelby, a percussionist, connects with River’s unique perception:

  “I particularly loved and was intrigued by your choice to have River noticing the inanimate objects around him as music notes, like a horn honking at a G flat. That was such a nice reminder... of what a musical prodigy River was.” (Shelby, 02:19)

• Keller’s choice of Tchaikovsky’s Piano Concerto No. 1 as a symbol in the book is discussed:

  “It’s big and sweeping with equally big emotions. And it’s noble enough to feel like a homecoming, but nostalgic enough to feel like a home calling.” (Sophie, 30:30)

• Hidden musical notes on the book cover play the concerto’s melody—an Easter egg for readers.

4. Structural Choices: Braiding Timelines

[35:41–38:24]

• Keller describes her process of structuring the narrative using three strands—Song’s present, Song’s past, and River’s journey—woven together like a braid.
• This approach provides balance, layers emotion, and keeps the narrative dynamic.

  “There are three strands to the story... and I wonder what happens if I just start braiding them. ABCBA... and almost all the pieces fell into place.” (Sophie, 37:38)

5. Sacrifice and Class: Material and Emotional Divides

[15:04–16:01, 20:09–20:35, 32:38–35:06, 39:05–40:17]

• Keller’s own family’s sacrifices are paralleled in River’s story: buying a piano on a limited income.

  “She bought me a used piano for $500. At the time, they were teaching assistants... only making $900 each.” (Sophie, 20:15)

• The novel examines the realities of class in contemporary Beijing: migrant workers in the shadows of the wealthy, and the “parallel tracks” of city life.

  “But they can’t afford to live in it, and they can’t enjoy all that it has to offer... It’s a bit of an interesting perspective, having lived on both sides of this track that otherwise would never touch.” (Sophie, 33:31)

• Keller draws on intimate experience from both sides, aiming to give voice to the overlooked.

6. Perseverance and Healing: Personal Setbacks and the Story’s Arc

[21:03–22:44, 23:07–25:11]

• Keller faced professional setbacks (agents dropping her, a long journey to publication, a cancer diagnosis) but persisted, channeling these experiences into her writing.

  “Each time I was knocked back, I thought about the story I wanted to tell and how I could make it more powerful... The difference between despairing and giving up and persisting and keeping faith was not so much the things that happened to me... but the narrative I could tell myself.” (Sophie, 21:07)

• Her thyroid cancer diagnosis and treatment paralleled Song’s journey in the book, particularly the feeling of “waiting in uncertainty.”
• This authenticity enriches Song’s emotional reality as she searches for her son.

7. The Motherhood Paradox: Fulfillment and Erasure

[27:22–28:19, 41:29–43:28]

• Keller and audience members discuss how motherhood can simultaneously fulfill and erase a woman’s identity, especially in circumstances of poverty and hardship where self-care is a luxury.

  “For Song, this concept of balancing being a mom with having a life outside of the kids is not at all on her mind because her life simply does not allow for it.” (Sophie, 27:22)

• The book explicitly explores different styles of mothering: Song’s warmth is a reaction to her own mother’s aloofness, and later, her yearning to provide opportunities she never had.

8. Universal Resonance: Music, Love, and the Power of Books

[29:56–31:29, 45:25–47:56]

• Oprah and audience members reflect on the universality of music and motherhood—how a story about a boy in Beijing can deeply resonate with a woman in Maryland.

  “That’s the beauty of books. That is the real wonder of books, isn’t it? ... And you would see yourself in that boy’s story. Pretty amazing.” (Oprah, 29:58)

• The book’s ending—discussed without spoilers—delivers a message about the value of growth through adversity:

  “To come home, you have to journey forth... An easy life is not the same thing as a good life... It’s in times of great challenge and great uncertainty and great risk that we can transform ourselves and rise up and do something equally great.” (Sophie, 49:47 & 50:09)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On motherhood and identity:

  “I missed my old life and my old self... You're describing all young mothers.”
  – Sophie Chen Keller and Oprah Winfrey (00:26–00:33)

• On musical detail:

  “That was such a nice reminder throughout the book as to what a musical prodigy River was. And it was in those small details that you wrote that I found the book to be particularly special.”
  – Shelby (02:19)

• On sacrifice:

  “She bought me a used piano for $500... My dad as well, $900 each. And so we didn’t have the resources to spare for things like this, but my mom did.”
  – Sophie Chen Keller (20:15)

• On class in China:

  “It runs parallel to the lives lived by all the migrant workers who built the city. But they can't afford to live in it, and they can't enjoy all that it has to offer.”
  – Sophie Chen Keller (33:31)

• On resilience:

  “In any good story, you have to face obstacles and you have to keep going... and you have to hit rock bottom and you still have to keep going before things can turn around.”
  – Sophie Chen Keller (21:07)

• On the ending’s guiding principle:

  “To come home, you have to journey forth... an easy life is not the same thing as a good life... it’s in times of great challenge... that we can transform ourselves...”
  – Sophie Chen Keller (49:47, 50:06)

• On the wonder of books:

  “That’s the beauty of books. That is the real wonder of books, isn’t it?”
  – Oprah Winfrey (29:58)

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Important Timestamps

• Motherhood’s challenges: 00:00–00:40, 10:03–12:23
• Move to Beijing & inspiration for Song: 06:56–09:30
• Musical prodigy details: 03:10, 19:33–20:35, 30:30–31:54, 45:25–47:56
• Crafting the structure: 35:41–38:24
• Sacrifice stories: 20:09–20:35, 32:38–35:06, 39:05–40:17
• Cancer, resilience, and healing: 21:03–22:44, 23:07–25:11
• Mother-daughter dynamics: 41:29–43:28
• Class/inequality in modern China: 15:04–16:01, 32:38–35:06
• Themes of home, journey, and transformation: 49:47–50:09

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Episode Highlights for New Listeners

• Sophie’s moving reflections connect personal experience with her fiction—especially regarding motherhood, sacrifice, and cultural displacement.
• The episode features heartfelt, insightful participation from readers who see themselves reflected in River and Song’s journey.
• Keller’s candid discussion of her setbacks and recovery from thyroid cancer parallels the novel’s message of resilience.
• The musical motif is both literal (River’s talent) and symbolic—carrying emotional resonance across cultures.
• The program closes by affirming the power of storytelling to bridge divides, offering solace, understanding, and community through empathy and shared experience.

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Transcript

[Sophie Chen Keller]

For the first two years of my son's life, I was just completely consumed by mothering in the very best ways and also in challenging ways. I was sleeping one or two hours at a time, and so I learned just how much exhaustion I could carry around. My son was an intense, sensitive baby. So he did a lot of screaming.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, that's how you describe it.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Okay, okay.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It was intense and sensitive. Yes.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

So I just had the sense that my life no longer belonged to me. I missed my old life and my old self.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You're describing all young mothers.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yes. So I opened up my laptop, opened up a word doc, and I started writing this book.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you did so well. Hi, everybody. It's wonderful to be here with you on the OPRAH Podcast. This year, we are celebrating the 30th anniversary of Oprah's Book Club. Let's just. I'm in awe of that. All thanks to all of you who have been reading with me for now 30 years. And I think that reading is one of the great joys of life. And we have many more fantastic books coming up this year. So much more to come. But it is my pleasure to share my 124th book club selection, little Wonderful, Little Wonder by Sophie Chen Keller. The novel is actually a big wonder, full of a lot of astonishing drama. It's the story of a mother and her young son who is a piano prodigy, and they become separated by forces beyond their control in Beijing, China. It's an extraordinary journey about a mother's love, really. And it's about perseverance and the transformative power of music. Welcome Sophie Chen Keller, to the OPRAH Podcast.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm glad to have you here. So I have to say, everyone in our audience has read the book. I'd love to hear from a few of you. So, Shelby, what did you think?

[Shelby]

Hi, Oprah. Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. Sophie, I loved your book. I could speak forever about how much I loved overall, what you had written, but I actually wanted to touch on a smaller detail that really resonated with me personally. I'm a tap dancer professionally, which means I'm a musician, and more specifically, a percussionist. And so I've often noticed the rhythms in the world around me in a way that maybe others wouldn't. And so I particularly loved and was so intrigued by, by your choice to have river noticing the inanimate objects around him as music notes, like a horn honking at a G flat. And that was such A nice reminder throughout the book as to what a musical prodigy river was. And it was in those small details that you wrote that I found the book to be particularly special.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, you know, I never even thought of that because I'm not, like, musically inclined at all, so I don't know a G flat from a circle. So it's interesting that that's the way you look at the world, too. Is that the way you hear things?

[Shelby]

Yeah. Well, as a tap dancer, I notice the rhythms more so than the notes, so I might notice that we're in triplets. Like, a train track is moving in triplets versus hearing the notes like river does.

[La Fern]

Yeah.

[Shelby]

One enda, two enda.

[Angela]

Really?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, that's pretty cool.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Hi, Oprah.

[Angela]

Hi, Sophie. I loved your book. The character that I resonated with the most was obviously River. I'm a child of immigrants, and, like River's mother growing up, I feel like my mom, who was also a single mother, like, she gave up so much and sacrificed so much that. So that I could grow up with better circumstances than what she grew up in. In the book, river talks about how it only takes two people to make a world. And I found it really meaningful that despite the circumstances of the story and despite how much time they spend apart, the world that Song and River share is made up of, like, love and playfulness and music. So I really love that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, I love the names, too, don't you? Song and River. All right, so let's get to it. You were born in China and raised in California and Ohio.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you grew up with your mother reading to you, and that's what gave you a love for writing?

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yeah. I came to the US When I was four, and so my first language was Mandarin Chinese. I didn't speak any English yet. And so to help me learn, my mom would check out stacks of books from the library, and every night before bed, she would spend an hour reading out loud to me until she lost her voice. And so I grew up loving these children's classics like James and the Giant Peach and Charlotte's Web. And as soon as I could hold a pencil, I was scribbling little stories of my own. If anyone asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up, I said, I want to be a writer. And When I was 13, I wrote a short story about a pedicab driver in rural China. And this story was just plucked out of the slush pile by the editors at Glimmer Train Leary magazine, and that became my first publication.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You were 13? Did you say?

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yeah, I was 13, right at the store. And the issue came out when I was in high school. I remember bringing author copies.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's gotta be just so exciting when you get published.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

I was so excited. And I was handing these issues to my friends and teachers. But then when I went to college, I thought I'd better be practical. And so I majored in economics. And after graduating, I worked for a few years in the corporate world. And before my husband and I were married, we were talking about our dreams for the future. And we thought, why not pursue those dreams today? We'll hold hands and close our eyes and just take this jump together. And so we both quit our jobs, and he went back to graduate school and I started writing.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What his dream was to go to graduate school?

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Well, he worked in finance originally, and he wanted to save the world. And so he went back to graduate school and majored in law and diplomacy and.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yeah. And yours was to write, and mine was to write. It always has been. And so that was, you know, almost 10 years ago. And it all came.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So how did you. So it's one thing to dream, but you gotta eat. So how did you. How did you plan on taking care of yourself?

[Sophie Chen Keller]

It was really. My husband enabled it all. He likes to save. He's German, frugal, so.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, okay. So little Wonder, your second novel. And you started writing this book. I understand when you were in for. You were staying for a while in Beijing.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yes. So in 2019, we moved from New Jersey to Beijing. My son was 4 months old at the time, and we were moving for my husband's work. And when I got to China, this version of China in 2019 was totally different from the China I remembered as a child. The city was super modern and clean and beautiful at the same time. The air pollution was so heavy, you could see it hanging like a thick fog. And I saw lots of very rich people living alongside lots of very poor people. And regardless of their socioeconomic status, everyone lived these technologically advanced lives. You know, they would just leave their homes in the morning with only a phone in their pocket. There was no need for a wallet. Everything was virtually cashless. I remember the first time I saw a beggar collecting change, not in a Styrofoam cup, but with a QR code, and you would scan it and just send the money directly into their mobile wallet.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Is that what beggars are doing now?

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Some of them were. And I was, yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Have you all seen that? I have not. Beggars with a QR Code. Okay. And you scan the QR code to give the.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yeah. And you'll just. Yeah. It's actually very, very easy and convenient.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay. All right.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

So we settled into our new routines there. And as part of mine, I would take my son out for these long walks because he napped in a moving stroller. So I would just walk around for two hours and observe everything around me. And I was struck by just the sheer number of delivery workers that filled the streets. And delivery workers of all kinds. There would be package delivery workers, and they would just set up shop in the middle of the sidewalk, surrounded by all their boxes and their bubble wrap. And there would be grocery delivery workers. There were the food delivery workers. They normally wore bright yellow uniforms, and they would literally sprint past me in the streets carrying their orders. And I was really curious about them. I wondered if they made their delivery on time. And I wondered, were they on bikes? No, on foot. They would hold their bags on foot, literally sprinting past me as I pushed my little stroller.

[Angela]

Wow.

[Shadeen]

Yeah.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

And I wondered where they had come from. I wondered what their stories were and what the job was like and what their lives were like. And so I just followed my wonder. And that was the beginning of who song would be.

[Oprah Winfrey]

He followed your wonder. Is that why it came? That's where the title came from.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

The title actually came at the end after the manuscript was done. And as I was brainstorming ideas, this phrase, little wonder, jumped out at me, because it just encapsulates the way we feel when we're holding a little baby and looking into that little face, it's just full of awe and affection.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So how did the story of the mother and the son come to you?

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Well, at the time, I had just become a mom.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

And motherhood was all I was thinking about. You know, for the first two years of my son's life, I was just completely consumed by mothering in the very best ways and also in challenging ways. I learned just how much love I could carry around. But to go with that, how much worry, you know, everything. I was constantly googling various symptoms, and everything became a potential problem that had to be solved. And, you know, I was sleeping one or two hours at a time, and so I learned just how much exhaustion I could carry around. My son was an intense, sensitive baby. So he did a lot of screaming.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, that's how you describe it.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Okay, okay.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Intense and sensitive. Yes, a lot of screaming.

[La Fern]

Got it.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

And the only thing that consoled him was bouncing on this yoga ball. So I would all day and all night just hold him on my shoulder and bounce him on this yoga ball. And for the first year of his life, he had a cow's milk protein allergy, which meant that I had to cut dairy and soy out of my diet. And so I just had the sense that my life no longer belonged to me. And I missed my old life and my old self where I could eat whatever I wanted. I could use the bathroom by myself in peace. I could.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You're describing all young mothers.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yes. Yeah. And have a cup of coffee without microwaving it five times before getting a chance to finish it. And you know what? As it turns out, time just keeps going on and everything is temporary. Every hard phase passes. And one day, baby is just older. And then you start incorporating elements of the old self into the new one.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

And for me, that happened in earnest when my son started daycare. And I went from having no time to myself to suddenly having this glorious stretch of hours every morning. And so I opened up my laptop, opened up a word doc, and I started writing this book and I got to talk about all those motherhood related things I had been dying to talk about.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you did so well. So how do you write? Do you write like every day or.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yeah, I like structure. So I have a simple routine. I try to keep two. I have a cup of coffee in the morning and then I start writing. And the most important thing for me is that I have no distraction. And so I do my writing from bed because this is the place where no one is bothering me. And I'm totally relaxed and comfortable. I'm not distracted by a squeaky chair or my back hurting or anything. And I can just totally focus on the words on the screen. And the other thing I need is to have a long stretch of time to produce a short stretch of words. I do about 700 words a day, and it takes me five, six, seven, eight hours to produce that. I think my brain is like a slow cooker and it just slowly breaks down the scene and lets the emotions and elements mingle and hopefully deepen.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Every day, though, you do it Monday through Friday. Every day. But I have become less precious about my routine now that I have two kids. When the edits for Little Wonder came in, my daughter was four months old. And so I did those edits with her sleeping on my chest. And I would type one handed on my laptop. I was still in bed. So this was the similar part of the routine.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow. We want to really talk about what the book, the story is about without Giving away too much. So set up the characters for us and the plot.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Sure. So the book starts with a mother, song, and her 11 year old son, river, and he's a piano prodigy.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Did it take you a long time to decide those names or did you just those names come to you?

[Sophie Chen Keller]

They came to me pretty easily. Okay. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yeah. And they get separated in a crowded train station in Beijing over the Chinese New Year. And there are so many people traveling during this period of time that it's been called the biggest human migration on the planet. So the train station is packed and they're not able to find each other again. And so they spend, you know, years of their lives searching for each other while having to make new and very different lives for themselves.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So this is so interesting. When I was reading the book for the first time, I had to Google Beijing train station because I couldn't understand how you could just lose somebody in a train station and then you're never going to see them again. Yeah, it's a big train station.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

It's a big train station. Also, there are just so, so many people and there are like millions of people. Yeah, there are a lot of people. And, you know, so much of this book hinges on injustice and inequality. And that's part of the reason they can't find each other, because Song is who she is. Because she is, in her mind, she's a nobody and people don't care about her.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I didn't understand in the beginning. Why wouldn't they just go on Facebook?

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Well, Chinese. The Chinese do have social media, but they don't have American Western social media apps. They don't have a Facebook equivalent. The way their social media works is in order to find someone, you need to have their QR code to scan, or you need their number or at least be in sort of the same social circles. Otherwise, you know, there are so many people, there aren't that many names. You know, you would never find her. It's like a needle in a haystack.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's why.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

All right. Our listeners tell us that the podcast is resonating with you and is serving as a bright spot in your day. That means a lot to me. So here's the thing. I would really appreciate it if you like and subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube or wherever you podcast. It's just a quick tap of the subscribe button and that way you won't miss an episode in your queue. You don't have to pay anything. I know. Subscribe usually means you're paying something. But this time it means you just are notified when there's something new. There are many more to come that we're excited about, so thank you for watching and listening. We need to take a short break. When we return, Sophie shares about her own experience, healing from thyroid cancer and how it inspired parts of the book. Stay with us.

[Unknown Host/Announcer]

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[Oprah Winfrey]

listening to the Oprah Podcast. I'm with Sophie Chen Keller. She's the author of my 124th Oprah's Book Club pick Little Wonder. Let's get back to our conversation. So readers say that you have this uncanny ability to write from the point of view of the child, especially boys. You were able to do that in your first novel. What is that, do you think?

[Sophie Chen Keller]

There are periods of my life that I remember especially vividly, and childhood is one of them.

[Unknown Host/Announcer]

Really?

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yeah. At the time I was living, we were living in Columbus, Ohio, and my parents are graduate students. So we lived in this housing complex for graduate student families similar to ours. And I remember the friends I made there. And I remember playing with them all day in the summers until the sun set. And I remember catching fireflies. I remember how big the world seemed and how magical these bedtime stories were. And so it was easy for me to access memories of that magical time.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

And actually the first versions of this book had much less of River's perspective. It was mainly Song's journey and Song story. And with each iteration of the book, River's role grew. And that's because Song's life is difficult and her perspective can start feeling quite heavy. But river, as a child, he approaches the world with openness, with more wonder, and so the world takes on this almost magical quality.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And is he a musical prodigy? Because you liked music?

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Exactly. Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yeah. I drew a lot of parallels between my own musical background and River's journey as a pianist.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you grew up with piano?

[Sophie Chen Keller]

So I started playing, learning the piano. When I was seven years old. My mom signed me up for group piano lessons at the local library. And, you know, I enjoy the lessons. And so she found a private instructor for me, and she bought me a used piano for $500. And, you know, at the time, they were teaching assistants. My parents are.

[Oprah Winfrey]

She brought you a used piano? This is important. She brought you a used piano for $500? She was only making $900.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Exactly. She was only making 900. My dad as well, 900 each. And so we didn't have the resources to spare for things like this, but my mom did.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I just wanted to share that because that's a lot of. You're only making 900? A piano cost 500.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

It's a big sacrifice.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Sacrifice and sacrifice and sacrifice for your daughter to be able to have piano lessons.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And I understand, too, that there were a few years ago you had thyroid cancer.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Now you're cancer free.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Happy to hear that.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

It's a very treatable form.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Weren't you, like, when you were first diagnosed with the cancer, you didn't know it was so easily treatable and you had some moments of not despair, but at least feeling not like yourself.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Right?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. And were able to overcome that.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yes. You know, I think that. So with this book, it's been a long journey. It's been a long, winding and bumpy road. My first book came out almost 10 years ago. And in the next few years, I worked on a different book. And my agent at the time, my first agent, he didn't like it and he dropped me. And then I spent years working on Little Wonder. And my second agent saw an earlier version of Little Wonder, and she didn't like it. She dropped me, too. And in the midst of all of that, I was diagnosed with thyroid cancer. And, you know, each time I was knocked back, I thought about the story that I wanted to tell you and how I can make it more powerful. And each time the thought of implementing those changes made me excited. And I kept reminding myself, in any good story, you have to face obstacles and you have to keep going, and you have to face more obstacles and you still have to keep going, and you have to hit rock bottom and you still have to keep going before things can turn around. And so for me, the difference between despairing and giving up and persisting and keeping the faith was not so much the things that happened to me, how many good, how many bad, but the narrative I could tell myself of the things that happened to me and the way I could connect and interpret those events.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And that's how we're supposed to live life. It's not about what happens, but it's your response to what happens.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So every time you were set back, you didn't give up.

[La Fern]

Right?

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Exactly.

[La Fern]

Yeah.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And then I called, oh my gosh,

[Sophie Chen Keller]

I can't believe it's still. I can't believe I'm sitting here talking to you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you've said that. That experience of having thyroid cancer informed the mother Song and Song's journey. Tell us how.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

So when I started writing the book, I didn't know what exactly Song's journey would look like. I didn't have the plot points mapped out and I didn't know where things were headed. I just took it a day at a time. And as I was approaching the end, I felt like it would be bittersweet because a straightforward happily ever after is just not in the cards for someone like Song. But I tried one way and it wasn't working. And I tried rewriting a different way and it still wasn't resonating. And around that time, I went to the doctor for my normal annual checkup. And you know how they feel along the sides of your neck. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

And this time she was feeling and she found a lump and it turned out to be thyroid cancer. And I was totally shocked because I'm in my 30s and I had no other complaints. But luckily, thyroid cancer is very treatable. So as you said, I'm back to 100%. But going through all of that, I understand now what it feels like to.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Did you have to do chemotherapy or.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

No, they do. They remove the thyroid. It's thyroidectomy. And then you do what's called radioactive iodine therapy. Yeah. But I understand now what it feels like to carry around this uncertainty as you're waiting for your diagnosis and you're waiting for surgery and treatment, you're waiting to recover, then you're waiting for your follow ups and you have to do all of this waiting while carrying out your normal day to day life. You have to take care of the

[Oprah Winfrey]

kids and life does not stop.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

It doesn't the kids, anybody who's had

[Oprah Winfrey]

cancer or been ill understands that.

[Shelby]

Yeah.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yeah, exactly. And so I drew on all of that as I wrote Song's journey as she is waiting to find her son while, you know, at the same time trying to build a new life for herself. And I drew on it, especially with the ending, you know, Song doesn't get thyroid cancer, but I hope my specific emotional truth is what makes her journey feel authentic and universal.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's time now for a break. Up next, Sophie Chin Keller answers questions from readers and reveals how her study of music inspired this poignant story. More on that when we come back.

[Angela]

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[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you for listening to the Oprah podcast. We're talking about my latest book club selection, Little Wonderful by author Sophie Chen Keller. Here we go. Well, this entire audience has read the book. That must feel good as a writer, right?

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Oh, it's amazing. This is the first, you know, early feedback. So it's just, it's really cool. The book has been just mine for so long and now it's, now it belongs to us.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So the whole audience has read the book and so many people have questions for you. Julie, what's your question?

[Shelby]

Well, Oprah, if I can tell you first that I've been learning from you since I was eight and you are not only the best teacher that I've ever had, but the greatest influence my life outside of my immediate family. And I just, my goal was to just say thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So thank you, thank you, thank you for that.

[Shelby]

And Sophie, I think you may have touched on my question.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You say eight years old, you've been watching 47.

[Shelby]

Yeah, sorry.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I appreciate that.

[Shelby]

Yes. But Sophie, I am a new empty nester and I am loving this season of life after being a stay at home mom. But I know a lot of other mothers are really struggling with purpose and finding their purpose after their children leave home. And in your story, Song seems to devote her entire life to river and is lost without him. Were you trying to explore the idea that motherhood can both fulfill and erase a woman at the same time?

[Sophie Chen Keller]

I think motherhood can change our lives and ourselves into something different and even unrecognizable at times. I think for Song, this concept of balancing being a mom with having a life outside of the kids is not at all on her mind because her life simply does not allow for it. She spends nearly every waking moment working to survive and support her family. She doesn't have the time or the resources to cultivate a hobby or go on vacation or even meet a friend for coffee. You know her courtship with Blue. They don't sit down and have a meal together or go. Go out and do a fun activity. They are getting to know each other while walking to and from work.

[Oprah Winfrey]

All right, La Fern.

[La Fern]

Yes. Thank you, Oprah. What an amazing story. I never thought when I started reading that I would see so many parallels with my own life. I went back to the days when I started playing piano. I played musical instruments from a young age. My solo mom with my father gave me one of the best gifts I've ever had. And it was an old upright piano and piano lessons. And I heard you talk about how much your mom made and how much the piano costs. And I can remember a season in my own mother's life where she was doing day's work, making $25 a day, and paid $75 for this old upright piano. Fast forward. When I think back to the music and how it makes me remember who I am. After many different life transitions, I decided to gift myself with a piano. And I did.

[Oprah Winfrey]

A few years ago,

[La Fern]

I thought about Tchaikovsky's Concerto Number one and what an emotional piece it is. What made you specifically select that piece to be what I see as the spine of the story?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Mm. Come on, La Fern. Come on, La Fern. And before you even answer that, I just want to say, where were you born and raised?

[La Fern]

Maryland. So I remember you in Baltimore.

[Oprah Winfrey]

In Baltimore in those early days. But I think here's a beautiful Maryland woman who has nothing in common with this boy in Beijing. And the music connects you through the story and the words that you've written. That's the beauty of books. That is the real wonder of books, isn't it?

[La Fern]

It is.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you would see yourself in that boy story. Pretty amazing.

[La Fern]

It is.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

It is.

[La Fern]

It is.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I could cry for you right now, Sophie. It's so amazing, but.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

So there are a handful of concertos that have taken on this mythical status. There are movies made about them. They strike fear into the heart of every pianist. And they're widely regarded as some of the most difficult pieces a pianist can learn. And I wanted to choose one of those legendary concertos to represent this dream of greatness that Song and River have. And I chose Tchaikovsky's first because it felt so much like this book itself. It's big and sweeping with equally big emotions. And it's noble enough to feel like a homecoming, but nostalgic enough to feel like a home calling.

[La Fern]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you. And aren't the book notes hidden on the COVID Yes.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

So those notes on the power line are not just random notes. If you play them, you hear the opening melody to Tchaikovsky's first Piano concerto. It's the melody played by the strings. Oh, now you have to try playing it. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Little secret there. Angela, what'd you want to say?

[La Fern]

First of all, I wanted to say hi.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Hi, Oprah.

[La Fern]

Thank you. And I really, really enjoyed the book.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What did you appreciate about this story?

[La Fern]

I really appreciated the fact that it showed real people meaning, working class and poor people, because there's another, you know, and also that it was contemporary and modern. You know, a song had a really tough life, but there were pockets of joy. I just wanted to know, like, about your class politic and, you know, kind of where. How it was informed and has it changed any in the last few years?

[Sophie Chen Keller]

So growing up, I was aware of the differences between what I had and what my cousins had. Going back for the summer, I would come with a suitcase full of clothes and they would have two or three outfits that they rotated between the whole summer. And I understood that the difference was because I lived in the US and my parents were educated. And as a kid, I kind of just accepted it as a fact. And I didn't have any other reference point. I only lived with my relatives when I went back to China. But then when I moved to Beijing and I lived there as an adult, I saw all that the city had to offer for those who could afford it. You know, the wealthy, the powerful, the educated. And as an expat, I lived in a central location and I lived in a nice high rise compound, and I could go to nice restaurants. I could install heavy duty air purifiers. I could buy imported fruits and vegetables and drink filtered imported water. And that kind of life is. It runs parallel to the lives lived by all the migrant workers who built the city. But they can't afford to live in it, and they can't enjoy all that it has to offer. But I also know life on the other side of that parallel track. My uncle for a time lived and worked in Beijing as a taxi driver. And when I went to visit him, he lived way, way outside of the city, in this area that smelled so strongly of sewage because these homes didn't have flushing toilets. So people would empty their waste and their trash right outside their door in an open canal. And so it's a bit of an interesting perspective, having lived on both sides of this track that otherwise would never touch.

[La Fern]

Hmm.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And so having lived on both sides of the track has given you the, you know, not only the material, but also an understanding of a world that, you know, most people will never see or don't understand. And so you become the voice for that world.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Right. And you really see the distance between them when you've been at both points.

[Oprah Winfrey]

At both points.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Maitesh. Yes.

[La Fern]

Yeah.

[Angela]

Thanks, Sophie, so much for joining us for this conversation today. I really enjoyed following the emotional journeys of Song and River, the ups and downs that they faced over the years. I was curious how you thought about telling this story through flashbacks and in particular, setting the start of it, or rather like the core incident in 2016. As you mentioned, a lot of the things like delivery and the ubiquity of smartphones, that feels like it could have happened today. So what made you want to set it in 2016?

[Sophie Chen Keller]

So China's development is interesting because it went through leaps where it changed a lot in a short period of time. And I got to personally witness these leaps through my visits. Each time I went back to see my family in the Northeast one summer, I would go back and the streets would be made of dirt, and people are using cash, and they don't have so much of it. They're just trying to keep their bellies full. And the next time I go back, those same streets are paved and broadened and landscaped with trees and flowers, and people have more cash and they're buying appliances with it or landline phones. And then when I moved there in 2019, the cash was gone and everything was done on a smartphone. And for the structure and the flashbacks, originally, the story was written in chronological order, and it started with Rivers Birth in the Northeast. And as it was progressing, it wasn't feeling right. It didn't have the right balance. It's like when you're eating a dish of food and it's only sweet or only salty. It gets one Dimensional. But if it's sweet and salty and bitter and acidic and spicy in all of the flavors, each bite is exciting and you want to keep eating. And so that's what I wanted from the structure of the book. And so I started at different points in time, and I must have completely torn down and rewritten the whole book at least three or four times. And one day I was facing yet another total tear down and rewrite when I had this sudden, very clear but very random image in my mind of a braid. And I didn't know what it meant. But then I started thinking, you know, there are three strands to the story. Song Story. In the present, I'll call that Strand a Song Story. In the past, I'll call that B. And river story, I'll call that C. And I wonder what happens if I just start braiding them. A, B, C, B, A, B, C, B. And almost all the pieces fell into place. And I knew that was the way to tell. Song and River Story authors.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What can I say? Wow, that's incredible. That's incredible. A brave vision comes to you.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

It was totally random and I didn't even know what it meant.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, but you knew it meant something.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yes, it was so clear.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I believe that. I do. I mean, but I've never heard that before. I've never heard that before. So Song, the mother, lives in poverty, and after giving birth to river, on page 19, you describe her home life with. Like this, you say she felt like she was lying in a bog, gnats swarming her greasy hair, ants crawling up her sticky back. Whenever she rolled over, she saw her mother crouch at the foot of the bed, cleaning the vegetables or the floor or the diapers, which had been cut out of soft sweatshirts. The village was a mud pit when it rained and a dust bowl when it didn't. How did you know a life like this in such detail?

[Sophie Chen Keller]

I know these homes very well. You know, I know this one room with a gigantic hearth bed and the folding tables you take out for meals. And when the meal's done, you fold it away. I know these little kitchens with the single giant wok and the basin of water for ladling. And I've lived in many of these homes, and that's because I was born in northeastern China in a rural area a lot like Song's lake yard. My great grandparents were farmers and fishermen. My grandfather on one side was a machine repair technician, and on the other side a middle school teacher. And my aunts and uncles were pedicab drivers. They were food cart Vendors. And they. And people like them are the ones who built modern China. And yet so few stories are written about them. And so I wrote this story. I want to let them know that they are seen. And I hope that everyone reading the story will live in these homes with them and will assist them.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, I felt my sticky back in the nets. We did.

[La Fern]

We did.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Oh, good.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Shadeen, you have a question?

[Shadeen]

Yes. First of all, thank you so much for this opportunity and congratulations on this achievement. I'm now itching to read the Luster of Lost Things.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yeah.

[Shadeen]

My question relates to how this book resonated the most with me, which is Song's ceaseless will to want to give her little boy a better life than obviously, the one that she had. And just an undying devotion. And that's because, of course, I was blessed, I am blessed with a mother who fled Iran and she ended up in Turkey, had to pay smugglers to take my brother and I to Greece. And then finally she got a golden ticket and came to Canada. And she certainly achieved that goal. And now I'm a new mother myself. My little boy's a year and a half. And as a new mother, you don't really feel like the world appreciates these moments, the sleepless nights, the postpartum period. And you captured those moments so beautifully. I remember one line about Rivers hand on his, possessive hand on his mother's breast. And it was just very, very palpable, that love. And so I wondered, how did you draw on your experiences as a mother in crafting those moments?

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Right. When I started writing this book, I was so excited to get back to writing and to write about all these motherhood related topics. Those precious, tender, fleeting moments of, you know, snuggling with your baby and giggling together and seeing those little personalities emerge and seeing the world through their eyes. And, you know, there's a scene in the book where Song is eating lunch and she starts leaking breast milk onto her shirt, or in the early weeks where she's still bleeding. Those were physical realities of motherhood that had taken me by surprise. I didn't know about them. And the process of writing all of that was like building a bridge. And it connected who I had been as a writer with who I had become as a mother.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, Song's own mother obviously does not care for her in the same way that Song cares for River. And her mother is resentful, seems to be, and bitter. And what were you trying to show in the polar opposite styles of parenting,

[Sophie Chen Keller]

the way Songs mother mothers is a reflection I think of the way she was mothered and the way Song mothers River is a reaction to how she was mothered. Yeah. She showers river with all the warmth and affection that she had longed for from her own mother and never got.

[Oprah Winfrey]

She's giving what she yearned for.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yeah, exactly. And later in the book, you know, Phyllis offers River resources, mentorship, education. These are things that Song wants to give him. And I think across all three styles, there is love there, even with Song's own mother. But she's just, this is the way she knows how to express it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's now time for our final break, and when we come back, author Sophie Chin Keller talks about why it's often during times of great challenge, uncertainty and risks that we transform ourselves. If you have an avid book lover in your life, go ahead and give a quick tap to the share button and send this episode to the study

[Angela]

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[Oprah Winfrey]

We're back on the Oprah podcast. Author Sophie Chin Keller reveals the inspiring idea behind the stunning finish of her new novel, Little Wonder. It is my latest book club selection. Now back to the conversation. All right, so river is, as we were saying earlier, he's this piano prodigy who starts playing at the age of, what was he, four? Yeah, four. Four. And what is so interesting is on page eight you write, it was obvious at a glance that her son was meant for more. Those ears protruding from the sides of his head, perfectly formed to scoop the music right out of the air. That sink runs water in G, that spoon clattered to the floor in a flat, and that light bulb flicked on in D sharp and that tinker hollered under their window in a horse C while the keys over his shoulder jangled in a brassy F. As we were saying earlier, that's such a descriptive way to explain how the music is in him. Is that also in you? That's how you relate.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

I do not have perfect pitch and I'm not anywhere near a prodigy. But like I said, I started learning the piano when I was 7. And it wasn't until I was in middle school that I became more Serious about it. I saw an ad for the Disney Youth Orchestra, and they were looking for a new pianist. And so I thought, I'm going to be Disney's pianist. And so I started practicing an hour a day or an hour and a half a day, and I filled out an application form and I sent in an audition tape, and I never heard back. But the habit of practicing an hour and a half a day stuck with me. And so that's how I became a decent pianist in a really ordinary way. In high school, I won a local competition, but I wouldn't be able to win anything bigger. And when I went to college, I stopped this habit of practicing every day. And for many years, I didn't touch a piano. And in recent years, I've started getting back into it, just playing for myself and just for fun. And that started after my son was born. I was reading that classical music was good for baby's brain development. And so I started playing him recordings of my favorite pieces back in the day. And I must have been listening to so much music during the day that at night when I woke up, I would notice this ache in my hands, almost as if my fingers wanted to stretch and play those pieces again. And so once life settled down a bit, I bought a third hand Yamaha upright and I dug up my old music scores, and I started relearning some of my favorite pieces. And I started with Hungarian Rhapsody no. 6, which is a piece that river plays. A lot of the pieces that he plays in the book are pieces I've played, not the Tchaikovsky. I can't play that. But, you know, his experiences performing on the stage, I drew from my own experiences performing. And the way he practices, he'll syncopate rhythms, or if he's working on a tricky passage, he'll bring it up to speed slowly, one metronome notch at a time. Or, you know, the way he practices three notes in one hand versus seven in the other hand in La Legarezza. I mean, these are ways that I know how to practice.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, Rivers, there's a little river in you.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Not at all. Not at all.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Solani has a question.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Yes. Thank you so much, Oprah. Sophie, I did not know that a book could make me feel so many things. One moment that stuck with me was when Blue passes away. And Song is trying really hard to cope with this loss. And her instinct to text him and to just believe that he is just far away, like any other migrant worker trying to navigate their long distance relationship was very tough to read. What made you portray grief in this manner when, when Song first receives the news, she's in denial, and then she's in shock. Blue is cut so suddenly and unexpectedly from her life that she knows that he's gone, but she still feels his presence. It's like a phantom limb or something. And, you know, she hasn't caught up with this new reality yet. And so when something happens, she feels this instinct to text him and to tell him about it. And the poignant thing about her situation is that even when she does catch up to this new reality, that new reality is not so different from her old reality because they're used to being separated and going years without seeing each other.

[La Fern]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So we're not gonna give away the nail biting ending, of course, but I heard some of the audience members who read were in tears. Did you always know you wanted it to end that way? Did you know that that was gonna be the ending?

[Sophie Chen Keller]

I didn't. I tried a few different versions, really. But I did know with the ending, you know, there's a line to come home, you have to journey forth. And I knew that was what I wanted. Sort of the overarching message I wanted people to take away. You know, it's easy that you come home, you have to journey forth.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, you have to journey forth because,

[Sophie Chen Keller]

you know, it's easy to choose to stay at home, which is this place where we feel safe and comfortable. But an easy life is not the same thing as a good life. And it's probably the opposite because it's in times of great challenge and great uncertainty and great risk that we can transform ourselves and rise up and do something equally great.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, thank you, thank you, thank you. You did such a great job with this book.

[Sophie Chen Keller]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And thank you to everyone who has read it. And thank you to our readers for your just really insightful, insightful, insightful, terrific questions. And it's my 124th book club selection. 124th, wow. Little wonder is available wherever books are sold. Until next time, everybody go. Well, 1:24. If you like a sweeping story you can really sink your teeth into, you will enjoy Little Wonder by Sophie Chen Keller. It's the saga of this mother and her young son, and it stays with you. You can buy my 124th Oprah's Book Club pick, Little Wonder right now just by scanning the QR code on the screen. You will have it in seconds. Happy reading, book lovers. Our listeners tell us that the podcast is resonating with you and is serving as a bright spot in your day. That means a lot to me. So here's the thing. I would really appreciate it if you like and subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube or wherever you podcast. It's just a quick tap of the subscribe button and that way you won't miss an episode in your queue. You don't have to pay anything. I know subscribe usually means you're paying something, but this time it means you just are notified when there's something new. There are many more to come that we're excited about, so thank you for watching and listening.