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- [00:01]
Oprah Winfrey
We're surprising an author, Tayari, whose book club I picked months before for American Marriage. She doesn't know I'm coming in.
- [00:16]
Tayari Jones
Sarah, you have a guest. Hello.
- [00:21]
Oprah Winfrey
Hello.
- [00:22]
Tayari Jones
How are you?
- [00:23]
Tondo
How are you?
- [00:24]
Tayari Jones
It's great to see you.
- [00:25]
Oprah Winfrey
It's great to see you. I've come to bring good news to you.
- [00:29]
Tayari Jones
Okay.
- [00:29]
Oprah Winfrey
I'm choosing Ken as a book club.
- [00:31]
Tayari Jones
Oh, my. Oh, my. We're a twofer.
- [00:34]
Oprah Winfrey
Twofer.
- [00:35]
Tayari Jones
You're a twofer.
- [00:37]
Oprah Winfrey
This is the thing about it. I just felt like I had taken a trip back home and I knew these women like, as well as I know myself and my own kin.
- [00:46]
Tayari Jones
Our literature has reflect not only who we are, but who we were.
- [00:49]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah.
- [00:50]
Tayari Jones
And so it means a lot to me.
- [00:52]
Oprah Winfrey
Oh, thank you. It means so much to me that you wrote it.
- [00:55]
Tayari Jones
Wow.
- [00:56]
Oprah Winfrey
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
- [00:58]
Tayari Jones
Here we go.
- [00:59]
Oprah Winfrey
Here we go. Hi, everybody. I am so delighted to be here with you on the OPRAH podcast. We're in New York City. With an audience of my kind of people, book lovers in New York City. Give yourselves a round of applause for that. This year we're celebrating. This year we are celebrating the 30th anniversary of the Oprah Book Club, something I am very proud of, because as a young girl growing up in Kosciusko, Mississippi, and later in Milwaukee and then later in Nashville, books were my lifeline. I found myself in books. The first books I remember reading, like Maya Angelou's I Know why the Caged Bird Sings and To Kill a Mockingbird. Those books transformed my life and what I thought I could be in the world. So when I started my book club on The Oprah show 30 years ago, I never dreamed that millions of you, millions all over the world would be reading along with me. So I am truly, I feel honored. It feels like a full circle. God bless moment to be able to say it's been 30 years and. And I hope you stay along with me for the ride and for many more books to come. So today I'm excited for my latest book club selection. I really am. I mean, all the books that I choose, I read personally myself after, you know, I hear about them through many avenues. And I have a wonderful book editor, Leigh Newman, who sends along the books to me long before they are in the stores. And I read a lot of manuscripts and I don't choose anything that I don't really like. But there are some things that I just feel resonate deeply inside that forever will be a part of my book language and vocabulary. And this book kin By Tayari Jones is one of them. I've been so moved by Tayari's writing. In 2018, I chose her prize winning novel, An American Marriage. Y' all remember that. For my 78th book club, I think. And Chayari is just. She's one of those writers who has trained herself to write, but she also has the gift. She's able to allow the divine to come through her and light up the pages with her words. And Ken is a great, great, great, extraordinary example of that. It is the captivating story of two childhood friends, Vernice and Annie, and who both lose their mothers and are raised by extended family. And they take very different paths as young women. Reading it, I felt like I was like, am I back in Mississippi? Am I back in Tennessee? It felt like going home. And I know that there are so many women all over the world who are gonna feel the same, but because Tayari Jones was able to bring it to the page. Welcome, Tayari.
- [04:18]
Tayari Jones
Wow.
- [04:19]
Oprah Winfrey
Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome. You brought it to the page.
- [04:27]
Tayari Jones
Well, thank you so much, and thank you for having me.
- [04:30]
Oprah Winfrey
Well, and this audience has all read
- [04:33]
Tayari Jones
your book,
- [04:39]
Oprah Winfrey
And I want to ask a couple of you what you thought about the book. So, Nairo, what'd you think?
- [04:45]
Julia
I read this book through three lenses as a psychotherapist, as a mom of four, and also as the eldest daughter of an immigrant mother. And I think because of that, my heart felt so heavy throughout the whole thing, just experiencing the longing that both Annie and Niecy had to be known and to know their mothers. And it made me think about my relationship with my mom, which was beautiful, but I began to understand her limitations as an adult and see mine that my own kids are experiencing. But you also illustrated so beautifully the importance of these women who mother but are not mothers. And it spoke to the importance of this collective mothering for wholeness. And it made me so grateful for the women who did that for me and also now who've left that indelible mark on my kids, because as mothers, we're still working through our own stuff as we're in this stage of life. And these women give us a wholeness that's greater than what one person could do on their own.
- [05:48]
Golda
Mm.
- [05:50]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah, I love that, Julia.
- [05:52]
Unnamed Audience Member (Friend)
It really gave me an insight into, like, the women in my life. My mom, my grandmother, my friends, my closest girlfriends, who are my chosen family. And I deeply connected with Annie and her vulnerability, her desire to feel loved, seen. And inherently, as black women, sometimes we carry this Burden in a way of always being strong before we're ever allowed to be soft. And through that, you have to be so much for so many, but really, you need to be enough for yourself. And I wish Annie had that opportunity to find that peace in her own independence.
- [06:37]
Oprah Winfrey
Oh, I love that. I love that. Oh, one of my daughter girls, Tondo's here. A graduate of my school in South Africa. She reads everyone in my book club but pics. And I always just love Tondo's. Take your take on this one.
- [06:51]
Tondo
First of all, I'm a huge fan of Ms. Tayari since American marriage. I've read the book 10 million times over obsessed. I might be biased, but my next of kin picks some of the greatest books I have read. And again, love the story about chosen family. I've been carried on the backs of chosen family my whole life, and so I have great admiration and respect for the idea that people can step in for us and become our family without the bond of blood. But one thing you do, and you did it in American marriage as well. Of course, the letters. And they feel like little memories that you almost want to take out the book and put back in their original envelopes with the torn kind of, you know. And I love the fact that you have us treasure those moments. And they feel so personal. When you read each of those letters, it feels like it's coming directly to you. You almost turn each page, excited to see, did Annie write? Did she write today? So, yeah, since we have you here, I would like to know what that structure looks like, the process of you choosing the letter writing and putting us in a memory box like that.
- [08:06]
Tayari Jones
Well, first, thank you for all of you for such careful and generous reading. Whenever you write a novel, you're asking so much of a reader for so much of their time. You know, we're all so busy, and our attention is everywhere. So for someone to give you the gift of their time to read 300 pages, I would like to start by just saying thank you for giving me that chance. You know, I write letters. I'm a letter writer. And I lament that letter writing is, you know, we're losing it as a cultural form. I have all the letters. My grandfather lived eight miles from my grandmother. And just think, in these days, when people didn't have cars, that was eight walking miles. And so he courted her by letter.
- [08:51]
Oprah Winfrey
Mm.
- [08:51]
Tayari Jones
And we have those. You know, we have that record. My mother has them in her jewelry box. All. It's about 50 letters. And I hate that we don't have that record anymore. So I think that's why the letter form, you know, comes back in my work. It's me trying to. Trying to keep it alive. But also, what we share in writing is different than what we share in speaking. It's also different than what we text or email. There's a certain intentionality because you're putting it on the page for the record. And I was very interested in what these friends and some other characters, what they will say to each other on the record.
- [09:30]
Gayle
Mm.
- [09:32]
Oprah Winfrey
Well, you answered that question. Did you get your question answered? Time for a quick break. Get this. Tayari Jones went to Spelman College when she was just 16 years old. We'll talk about the mentors who inspired her writing next. Welcome back to the Oprah podcast. We're celebrating 30 years of my book club this year, and I'm with an audience of readers and writer Tayari Jones, Author of my 121st book club pick titled Ken. So I read that while you were a student at Spelman College, that there were two women who had a great impact on you. Tell us about that moment.
- [10:06]
Tayari Jones
Well, I will tell you. I went to Spelman. I was very young. I was only 16. And I knew that I liked you.
- [10:12]
Oprah Winfrey
So you were smart. Very smart.
- [10:16]
Tayari Jones
I worked hard. I did. And I like to read. I like to write. But when I was a girl growing up, if you liked to read and write, people did not assume that it meant that you were smart or. Or that you. If you like to read. They didn't think it meant you were an intellectual. They just thought it meant you were a nice girl. Yeah, right. Like you were. That was something your mother didn't have to worry about, because to the best of my knowledge, you know, no one has ever gotten pregnant in a library. Yeah, but I said that once, and a librarian was like, well, actually, in the central branch. But I'm gonna say seldom.
- [10:45]
Oprah Winfrey
Seldom.
- [10:46]
Tayari Jones
But when I got to Spelman College, I met a writer, and she was my teacher. Her name is Pearl Clegg.
- [10:53]
Oprah Winfrey
From An Ordinary Day.
- [10:54]
Tayari Jones
Yes. It's the Oprah's Book Club selection. And I signed up for the writing class even though I was a freshman and freshmen were not allowed to take it. I thought that was discrimination, and I thought I should be allowed. And I didn't know you could learn writing in the classroom. And so I may or may not have approximated the signature of my advisor so that I could. This was before computers.
- [11:17]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah. Yeah.
- [11:18]
Tayari Jones
And so I took the class, and she asked me a simple question. She said, to me, what are you thinking about? And I got ready to tell her, and she said, no, don't tell me. Write it down. And with that, she became my first audience. She took me seriously, so I took myself seriously. And also I was at Spelman. I joined Spelman College in 1987. Spelman was founded in 1881, but it wasn't until 1987 that Spelman College got our first black woman president. We're a Black Woman's College.
- [11:53]
Oprah Winfrey
Dr. Johnnetta Cole.
- [11:54]
Tayari Jones
Dr. Johnnetta Cole, her big voice. Yes. And I had met her at the freshman reception, and she asked what I was interested in. And I just felt inspired. And I said, I would like to be a writer. And then I saw her later on campus. This was the 80s, remember? In the 80s, everyone thought they were going to lose weight by walking really fast and moving their arms. Remember that? Yeah, yeah. So she was doing that, and I said, hello. And she said in her big voice, tayari, the writer. And it was like she. Like she just touched me with that. Like, I said, this was what I was going to do.
- [12:28]
Oprah Winfrey
And she anointed you.
- [12:29]
Tayari Jones
Yeah. And she remembered. And I had to make good on my word. And so then I started thinking of myself as, oh, I'm the one that's the writer.
- [12:36]
Oprah Winfrey
That is great. That is so great.
- [12:38]
Tayari Jones
Changed my life.
- [12:39]
Oprah Winfrey
Does she know that story? She knows that.
- [12:41]
Tayari Jones
She does know that story. And to honor her, I, along with one of my college roommates, we started a fund and we raised a scholarship in her name called Dream the Boldest Dreams.
- [12:52]
Oprah Winfrey
Oh, I love that. And you took an eight year break between an American marriage and Ken. What was happening during that time? Because we've been waiting for this. We've been waiting.
- [13:00]
Tayari Jones
I don't know if I would call what happened to me a break. I feel like in some ways it was the best of times and it was the worst of times in that. With an American Marriage. I don't know if you know this, but it was an Oprah's Book Club selection. Yeah. And that changed my life. It's like I went from being a writer to being an author. I was out promoting my book, talking about my book, doing all these things and not having that quiet introspection. So that took some time away from writing the next book. But I don't regret it because also I was enjoying the fruits of my labor. You know, for the first time, I was being invited places. I was doing things. But so many other things happened. I had a terrible series of losses, deaths in my Life. And that grieving took me away from the page. I had a hard time justifying spending time in my imagination when people around me were hurting so much. And then I myself, I got sick. I was getting better. I was kind of writing, and all of a sudden, I had all these myriad symptoms. I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disorder, graves disease. And I, like, my hand was shaking. I couldn't write. It affected my vision. I used to didn't. You know, eight years ago, I didn't wear glasses, so I had to write this book with a patch over my eye because I was seeing double, and I needed to see.
- [14:20]
Oprah Winfrey
You wrote this book with a patch over your eye?
- [14:21]
Tayari Jones
A lot of it, yes. With a patch over my eye. But I wanted to write the book because by then I. I had fallen in love with the characters, and spending time with them was actually healing for me.
- [14:32]
Oprah Winfrey
And you started while you were sick, you were writing?
- [14:36]
Tayari Jones
I was writing because also, I was, like. I was a couple years over my deadline, and I had promised them a book about. I had thought I was gonna write a novel about gentrification in modern Atlanta. It was gonna be super contemporary. It was gonna be based on my neighborhood. I live in a wild neighborhood. But that is another story. But it was gonna be based on that, and. But I was trying to write that, but it didn't have the magic, the sparkle that comes from creating.
- [15:05]
Oprah Winfrey
So where did this start? I heard that you started. You call it word doodling, that you started writing this book freehand. It's like you were channeling it.
- [15:13]
Tayari Jones
It wasn't. The writing wasn't working when I was trying to write the novel that I had been contracted for. And I said, well, let me just go back to the basics, to paper and pen. Lined notebook paper, ballpoint pen, not even fountain pen, just a ballpoint pen. And I was just writing, just seeing who was out there. And I started writing about Annie and Niecy, and it was the 50s, and I said, well, maybe these are my parents. Maybe these are my character's parents.
- [15:40]
Oprah Winfrey
So this just shows up in your head?
- [15:42]
Tayari Jones
It showed up in my. So I said, maybe this is backstory. Backstory is a thing.
- [15:45]
Oprah Winfrey
Okay.
- [15:45]
Tayari Jones
Yeah. And as I just kept backstory, and it kept growing and growing, and then it got to be about page 150, and it was still like, it wasn't even 1960. And I said, well, I can't carry these people all the way to the 2020s. So I think this could be the story. And it is the first time a story ever came to me. Because I'm sure you talk to a lot of writers and they say, you know, oh, the story just, you know, this is what's sent to me. I always saw those people were being dramatic, but it happened to me, like, this is a story that wanted to be written. This is a story that I was called to write. And I could disobey that at my own peril. I felt that if I didn't write this book, I wouldn't write any book, because this is what I was meant to write. And it gave me a certain humility because it told me that I'm not doing this by myself. I am collaborating. When you do create creativity, it's a collaboration with the creator.
- [16:46]
Oprah Winfrey
I love that. We all love that. I mean, I just love even the title so much. Did you know the title in the beginning or did you come to the title?
- [16:56]
Tayari Jones
I came to the title. Once it was all ready, the book was completely finished. I was gonna submit it. I was already anxious. Cause, as I mentioned, this was not the book that you had paid for. And I had to turn it in. And I could not turn the book in without a title. I felt like that was like, you know, just like going out the house without your hair done. You have to have a title on the book. You can't just say Untitled.
- [17:17]
Oprah Winfrey
Yes.
- [17:17]
Tayari Jones
And so I read it and I thought about it, and I slept on it and I prayed on it. And I knew the title was Ken. And so I saved the file as Ken. And I didn't. I didn't. I was. I submitted this work with such uncertainty. But I just had to say, this book came to me for a reason. This title came to me for a reason. And so I guess when I sent it in to my publisher, it came to them. Yes.
- [17:43]
Oprah Winfrey
I have to say, I don't wanna give any of the book away because those of you who haven't read it, our audience here has read it. But when you read, you want it to unfold for you. So we're not gonna give you any spoilers, but can you give us an idea of what the plot is and how the plot came to you?
- [18:02]
Tayari Jones
Okay.
- [18:03]
Oprah Winfrey
It plotted itself.
- [18:05]
Tayari Jones
Well, it all kind of plotted. I always know. I generally know what the book is about, but I don't know what the people are going to do. But this is a story of a female friendship. And I do believe that as a woman writer, at some point, female friendship, because it's such a part of the fabric of our lives, is a natural. Is a natural. Type.
- [18:25]
Oprah Winfrey
Everybody here has a friend, right, Who's a female.
- [18:27]
Tayari Jones
Everyone has a friend. Yeah, yeah.
- [18:28]
Oprah Winfrey
And you have even you non females too, right?
- [18:32]
Tayari Jones
They're friends since they were infants because neither of them has a mother. Although Niecy's mother is dead, Annie's mother has abandoned her. So Annie has hope that one day she'll see her mother again. Niecy knows she'll never see her mother. So the question is really, is hope a double edged sword? Because Hope's twin is disappointment. And their lives, you know, their lives unfold. They take different forks in a row. One is able to pursue education and the other is living in Memphis, working in a bar, you know, shacking up with a piano player. But their hearts are still connected. They are still dearest friends. And it's really, I think, about also maintaining your friendships despite the fact that your lives are different. Different lives don't mean that you necessarily have different hearts. And you cannot mistake your life for your heart. Those are different things. Wow.
- [19:25]
Oprah Winfrey
Why did you choose this time in American history? Because it's set in the 1950s and the 1960s. The dialogue, the sights, the smells, all of it.
- [19:37]
Tayari Jones
Well, I was curious about growing up in the wake of the civil rights movement because my mother, when my mother was 15 years old, she participated in a sit in movement in Oklahoma City for two years. My mother, her sister, and some other children that went to their school the whole summer, they sat in at a drug counter, drugstore counter, and during the school year, they did it on the weekends. And it was just a part of the fabric of their lives. Part of what I did in this book was really to try to get to know my own mother better by thinking about the circumstances under which she came of age. It helped me understand the way our lives are the same and the ways that our lives are different.
- [20:15]
Oprah Winfrey
Wow. Let's take a quick break. Coming up, readers in our audience say they connected so deeply to the characters in Kin, they were brought to tears. Stay with us. Welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. I'm talking with international best selling author Dear Jones. If this conversation speaks to you, go ahead and share the link with a fellow book lover or your own book club to get the conversation started about Dehyari's book. It is really, really good. It's called kin. It's my 121st Oprah's Book Club selection. And I love this page 11. Just it spoke to me so profoundly. While I was tended to, I was never mothered. Still, the hole in my spirit made me into the girl I was and then the woman that I am. One day I will grow a person within myself and love that little person so hard that it would bind her to me like rich dirt in the corner of a canvas satchel. And you're crying. Why are you crying? Because that was your line, too.
- [21:17]
Tayari Jones
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We lost our mom when we were younger, so it's really spoke to us.
- [21:21]
Oprah Winfrey
It spoke to you, too. Yeah. Let's talk about it. Yeah.
- [21:25]
Unnamed Audience Member
I. I can't believe how well and accurately you captured the experience of what it's like to be a girl without a mom. And every line like, that line was like, yep, my reality. That's my reality. That's my reality. And so it didn't feel even sad. It felt normal reading it.
- [21:47]
Tayari Jones
Yeah.
- [21:48]
Oprah Winfrey
And felt normal and seen and heard, like someone else knows my story.
- [21:54]
Tayari Jones
Yeah. Yes.
- [21:55]
Unnamed Audience Member
Even to say that you accompanied these girls through the story was like, oh, you accompanied me through just the witnessing is so powerful. So one of the themes that really stood out to me is this tension between survival and belonging and how you have to sacrifice part of who you are in order to fit in, because it's not just a being seen and known kind of thing, but am I going to be safe and cared for and protected type of thing? So what was it that you were hoping that people would take away from that tension of when do I. When do I sacrifice myself in order to fit in? Or when do I protect myself in order to survive?
- [22:41]
Tayari Jones
Thank you, first off, for sharing your experience. I think that we believe that we have to sacrifice more than we actually have to sacrifice in order to fit in. You know, a lot of times I think that we capitulate in advance. Like, we anticipate that we will not be safe. Like, I think that Niecy doesn't believe she'll be safe in telling her truth, but she does not know that. Like, that is a risk. I think everyone should take the risk of the truth because you may be accepted and you don't know it because you're afraid. And so that, to me, is what I. The dignity is in the truth. And I think that that's the thing. We have to. We think. We think we can live without dignity. You know, we think I'll do this to survive. Like, dignity is a luxury, but dignity is not a luxury, and you only get it by being your authentic self. I think that's one of the takeaways, and the other takeaway is I really hope that we can stop being so tied to the question of biology. The question of biology is something that is decided for us before we're even born. Like, none of us chose our families. And we, as adults, we as full human beings, should have the right to create a family that works for us. I'm not saying that your chosen family has to replace your family. Family. You can have both. But not to feel like this accident of birth is the determining factor in your life, that you can be loved by someone else, even if it's not your biological mother, your biological father. Someone else's love can be just as significant if you let it. Like, Annie is so committed to the idea of blood that she cannot experience the other love that's around her.
- [24:24]
Oprah Winfrey
But it was right there in front of her.
- [24:26]
Tayari Jones
It was right there. But her commitment to the. It's an idea. Like they say, you know, you could.
- [24:30]
Oprah Winfrey
And then he eventually says he cannot be seen anymore because she's chasing the thing that's already there. She's chasing.
- [24:36]
Tayari Jones
Obsession is never a good idea.
- [24:38]
Oprah Winfrey
It's never. Yes, yes, you've said that writing this novel gave you a deeper understanding of your own mother. Did it also give you a deeper understanding of yourself?
- [24:51]
Tayari Jones
Absolutely, because I came to understand in writing about this previous generation, just how their experiences were so different than our own. Like, there's some things that I kind of blamed my mom for not understanding my life. And I realize now, how could she understand my life? She grew up in a different world. She was born in 1943. How is she meant? I mean, the nature of progress is such that we are each in our modern lives, living unprecedented lives. And you cannot expect other people to imagine the nuances of our unprecedented lives. And that's what I really came to see, that people do the best they can with. With the experiences that they have. And you have to give them some grace and credit for how hard they tried.
- [25:41]
Oprah Winfrey
Wow, that is such wisdom. And I love how you turn a phrase like my. On page 20, you say, my mother. Rough as an emery board. Looks like she was born to die.
- [25:51]
Tayari Jones
Yeah. Poor Hattie.
- [25:52]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah. How did you. I mean, so as you're thinking of, my mother is rough, or my mother is, you know, challenged, or my mother. How does that come to you? Rough as an Emory board.
- [26:05]
Tayari Jones
Some of them come to me right away. But other times, once I'm in the zone, like when I'm in the zone of a book, if I touch something rough, I'll become more aware that I'm like, that's rough. I should use that somewhere. Like, if I'm in the mode I'm looking for metaphors.
- [26:20]
Oprah Winfrey
I'm looking for metaphors.
- [26:22]
Tayari Jones
But we also have metaphors and symbols, you know, all over our lives. But when I'm in the zone, I hear things everywhere. Like, I'll hear a song lyric and it'll remind me of something in the book. Or I also think of ways, how am I similar to my characters? I can never write about a character who has experienced any. The book is not autobiographical. None of my books are autobiographical. But I have experienced every emotion my characters have experienced. And I'm more aware of my emotions and how they feel and where they manifest in my body as I write.
- [26:55]
Oprah Winfrey
I love page 94. Me and Niecy weren't sisters and nowhere near twins. I didn't have what she got, nor the other way round. What you have the same isn't what binds you. Hearts grow strings because of what you know. That's the same. What happened to you, that's the same. And when what you want is the same. Yes. That's what you're saying you've already experienced what these characters have experienced in one form or another.
- [27:22]
Tayari Jones
Yes. And I mean, and even when they've done things that are shameful or embarrassing, I have to remember. And it also makes you humble in writing because you are not some perfect figure moving the people around, making them do what you think they should, or punishing them for being naughty. You have to really think about the times when you were not in the right and how it felt to you, and that you're still a good person. Then they too can be good people. They don't have to do everything right to be worthy of story.
- [27:55]
Oprah Winfrey
After a quick break, Diari Jones reveals how she wrote the heart wrenching conclusion of Kin, my latest Oprah's Book Club selection. We'll be right back. We're back to the Oprah podcast, and I'm with Tayari Jones, and we're talking about her new book, Kin. It's my latest Oprah's Book Club selection, and this is the second time I've chosen one of Tayari's enthralling novels for my book club. I just love the way she tells the story. Here we go. Brianna, where are you?
- [28:21]
Brianna
Hello.
- [28:22]
Gayle
Hi.
- [28:23]
Brianna
Yeah, so I just wanted to say that this book felt tangible. I felt like I could touch it,
- [28:29]
Tayari Jones
I could hear it, I could taste
- [28:30]
Brianna
it, I could smell it. It felt less like fiction and more like a real account of something that happened in the lives of my great grandmothers, my grandmothers, even my mother. And it really resonated with me, Annie and Vernice's predicament, because I also lost my mother as well. And even their friendship resonated with me because I had a classmate who also lost her mother and father that took me under her wing after she found out about my mother's passing and really helped me through. I identify with Vernice's desire to be like Mrs. McHenry and her desire to break barriers and create a different life for herself and her children and her children's children. And in doing that, sometimes you feel like you need to separate yourself from certain people or certain environments so that you don't get pulled back into a place that you're trying so hard to escape from. My question to you is, could Vernice possibly have set better boundaries? Was she supposed to? Would that have saved her and Annie in the long run?
- [29:55]
Tayari Jones
I think, first off, my condolences to you and your mama.
- [30:00]
Gayle
Thank you.
- [30:01]
Tayari Jones
I just. I felt it when you said that. I think that you have to set boundaries with people that are toxic. Annie is not toxic. She's poor. And you can't cut people off for being poor because they don't have the opportunities that you have. Annie is a good friend to her, and Annie needed her help. And you have to help those who need your help if they're your friends, if you're close. And part of reaching across these differences in their lives are remembering what this friendship means. I don't think she should have had, I think, her mother in law, who's saying, you know, you keep the people you used to know far away from you. And she tells her how she even pushed her sister away. I think that was a mistake. You know, if you have a good relationship with your sister. I don't want. I don't want a life that tells me I can't love the people I love. And I think that is the generational progress that I think that Vernice will make and that Mrs. McHenry is saying, you have to cut off your past. And I think Vernice says, or not, I'm not going to cut her off. I love her. And I think that's important, that we have to figure out ways to integrate the people we love into the lives we want. Or else you're choosing between who you love and your ambition. And you shouldn't have to. And you don't have to. You just have to be. I think you just have to be flexible and open.
- [31:24]
Oprah Winfrey
Well, Leslie and Dr. Kelly, thank you so much for that, for sharing that Leslie and Dr. Kelly, in our audience, they've been friends since they were 4 years old. Did I hear friends since 4 years old? Tell us your story. Stand up, guys.
- [31:38]
Tayari Jones
Hi, ladies.
- [31:39]
Oprah Winfrey
Hi.
- [31:40]
Leslie
So, yes, we have been friends since we were 4 and 5 years old. And our parents were members of a black social club, the Consorts. White dresses all the way down.
- [31:50]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah.
- [31:51]
Leslie
And much like Niecy and Annie, we disconnected in our teenage years. But 25 years ago, we were reconnected when my aunt was battling pancreatic cancer and Kelly was on her rotation. So she walked us through the transition, and we have been thick as thieves ever since. Sister friends reunited ever since.
- [32:11]
Gayle
And we've gone the last 25 years. We've gone through the ups and downs, couple of marriages, couple of divorces, and all the stuff in between. And one of the things that really resonated with me about Annie and Niecy's story and is how childhood wounds can, you know, they can't help but to affect us in our lives, but sisterhood can really heal us if we let it, you know? So we collaborated on this question, and, you know, when you think about how women sustain friendships over decades, right. Over. Over time and distance and failures and successes and loves, et cetera, what would you like for readers to take away?
- [33:00]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah.
- [33:00]
Leslie
What do you want all of us to take away from the relationship between Niecy and Annie that we can bring to our relationships?
- [33:07]
Tayari Jones
I think the main thing is to honor your relationships. Your friendships are as important as your romantic relationships, and they're as important as any other relationship in your life. And. And also may last longer because they can start when you're absolutely well. Also, they can get started earlier. Also, what you say, Gayle. But this person who has seen you grow, and there is more of an expectation of acceptance among friends. Like, your friend is not going to get mad at you because you look different as you get older. You know, like, that's just not how friendships work. There is a more of an expectation of an unconditional acceptance. And I think that's the thing, though, is to nurture your friendships and value your friends. So many people, you know, people like this throw their friends away when other circumstances in their lives change.
- [34:02]
Gayle
Can't do it.
- [34:03]
Tayari Jones
And that your friends are your greatest resource. I think that's what I would take away.
- [34:07]
Oprah Winfrey
Well, I was going to ask you, what did you take away? What did you take away?
- [34:12]
Tayari Jones
Do you want to start?
- [34:14]
Gayle
Well, this was just an amazing book for me, isn't Made me call all my friends, actually, and say, you Know what? I'm just calling you because I love you. You know, I'm just calling you because, you know, you were on my mind and it just, it took, it made me take away the value and it made me appreciate the value, like you said, of sisterhood and friendship and, and really what that means throughout our lives. You know, we were different people when we were 4 and 5 years old. We were different people when we were teenagers and we're different people now, but we still have the same friendship.
- [34:50]
Tayari Jones
Yeah.
- [34:51]
Leslie
And for me, it was taking away the affirming, the belief of knowing and being known, the two most important boxes in our human experience, and that we can choose the people who know us and, and we still have a call to share who we are with those that we come in contact with. So it just felt so life affirming and hopeful even in the end.
- [35:17]
Oprah Winfrey
Well, thank you. Thank you Leslie and Dr. Kelly. Thank you, friend, since you were four. Let's hear from Golda. Golda, what do you want to say?
- [35:27]
Golda
Hi, I'm right here. Thank you so much, Oprah. And thank you, Tyari, for this book. I relate very, very closely to the characters in the book. My father was killed when I was a year old, and so I know that sense of longing that comes with losing a parent and wanting to know them, what they sounded like, what their laugh was like, how they walked. And so my question is about that. In the book we see the characters being mothered by people who aren't their mothers. And in my life, I had father figures step in to fill the gaps that my father left behind. But I've always wondered, was I fathered? Is it possible to be mothered by someone who isn't your mother? Or is it just a substitute and never really the real thing?
- [36:09]
Tayari Jones
You know, I think that no one can ever compare to the imaginary parent in your mind. And so no real person can fill the gap of that imaginary person. That's one of the things I was working on in the book.
- [36:23]
Oprah Winfrey
How you so smart?
- [36:26]
Tayari Jones
I do my best. Why are you smart? I do my best.
- [36:28]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah.
- [36:28]
Tayari Jones
But you know, I think about how that's why I have so many people saying to Annie, listen, Annie, I have a mother. And it's not what you think it is.
- [36:35]
Oprah Winfrey
Yes.
- [36:37]
Tayari Jones
That she has and she keep reminding of that, but she is so stubborn. She always says, you know, they keep telling me that I shouldn't look for my mother, but they have a mother. They don't know, but they're saying, actually we have a mother, so we do
- [36:49]
Oprah Winfrey
know we do know, and I think
- [36:51]
Tayari Jones
that that is what's important, is to don't let an imaginary person dominate your life and keep you from having the satisfaction and completion that is available from real people. But real people have flaws.
- [37:05]
Oprah Winfrey
Wow. Thank you so much for that. Thank you. Thank you. Golda. There's a beautiful passage about love that you write where you say we come to love people in many ways. Much is made of the burning love that hits like a smoldering remnant of a star hurled down to earth. I went now, how long it take to write that sentence? Yet this is not the only type of love anymore. Then the camellia is the only flower. There is the love that blooms from decency and from that love passion.
- [37:42]
Tayari Jones
I do believe that. I think that real again, this burning love, that's like a, you know, a star hurled from the heavens. That's that imaginary person. That's that imaginary person. But real people can win you over in a lot of ways. And we can be so married to this other script.
- [37:58]
Oprah Winfrey
Love that blooms from decency.
- [38:00]
Tayari Jones
Decency.
- [38:01]
Oprah Winfrey
And from that love. Passion.
- [38:02]
Tayari Jones
Yes. And you can. Passion can develop, I think. We think, oh, well, if you don't feel it, that first day is never going to be there, or it's not there. But I think that Niecy, with her experience of loss, she is open to different types of love. She even says, I think of another character of Joette, that only she. That's privilege. That makes you think you can only be happy if things work out exactly the way you wanted them to. But there's a range of happiness. And if you can accept that there's a range, there's a way higher chance that you'll find it.
- [38:33]
Oprah Winfrey
How does each. How does writing a book like this open up the aperture of your own life? What happens after you have finished this writing and you send it off to your publisher and you know that you are done? Do you feel more expanded in ways that you were before you wrote?
- [38:53]
Tayari Jones
I feel like every novel I've written has made me more understanding of other people because I have to walk in their shoes. I never write about any character that I dislike. I have. There has to be something about them that I feel establishes their humanity and. And makes me understand that other person's point of view, even if I completely disagree with them. Like, it was difficult for me, you know, to write from the point of view of a madam in a whorehouse. Like that was very difficult for me to write because I.
- [39:26]
Oprah Winfrey
But we ended up having compassion for her.
- [39:28]
Tayari Jones
Yes, we did end up having compassion for her. But we still had baby doll pulling us, pulling our hem, saying, yeah, but don't forget what she does for a living. Yeah, yeah, so. But I was able to understand the way that she understood herself. I think that's the key. And I try to.
- [39:41]
Oprah Winfrey
Ooh, that's so good.
- [39:42]
Tayari Jones
And I try to apply that to other people around me.
- [39:45]
Oprah Winfrey
I was able to understand the way she understood herself. Yeah.
- [39:48]
Tayari Jones
And that's the important thing. I imagine that the characters are reading the book. People say to me, wes, who's your audience? And the audience are the characters themselves. And I want each of them to feel like I did right by them.
- [40:02]
Oprah Winfrey
And you did.
- [40:04]
Gayle
Oh, thank you.
- [40:04]
Oprah Winfrey
And you did. There's a running theme throughout the book that women have to sacrifice in some way themselves in order to survive. What is your point of view on that?
- [40:14]
Tayari Jones
I mean, I do think that. I mean, sacrifice. I just sounds so, like. I don't know, almost like, you know, like in those. Like something someone's gonna do at an altar, they're gonna have sacrifice. But I do think you have to
- [40:26]
Oprah Winfrey
compromise, Give up some things.
- [40:27]
Tayari Jones
Yeah, you have to compromise. But everyone to be in a relationship is, by its nature, a compromise. The thing is that you have to be in a situation where everyone involved, everyone is compromising. The problem comes in when. When only one person is compromising, and perhaps that's when it becomes a sacrifice. But that's the thing. Like, Annie compromises to be in Niecy's wedding, and Niecy has to compromise to remain friends with Annie. Like, they have to give. You have to give. But as long as you get, it's okay to give.
- [41:00]
Oprah Winfrey
Well, I'm not going to give away end of the ending, but, I mean, by the time you get to the end, you are really, like, on the edge of your seat. It is. Yes. When you get there.
- [41:11]
Tayari Jones
I was stressed as well.
- [41:12]
Oprah Winfrey
Were you stressed as well?
- [41:13]
Tayari Jones
I was, like, toward the very end, I was not sleeping. I had moved out of. I have this really cozy writing room with, like, a fluffy chair. It's so cute. But toward the end, I had to move out of the cute, cozy room and move downstairs to the basement to what I call the situation room. Because the story got deep. I had to, like, get down there. This was not a fluffy sock moment.
- [41:34]
Oprah Winfrey
You know, none of us reading it expected it to take us there.
- [41:38]
Tayari Jones
Me either.
- [41:39]
Oprah Winfrey
You either.
- [41:40]
Tayari Jones
I was like, oh, that's. Ooh, yeah. That's how that went down. But I feel that when I get to the end, I look Back at it. I can find places, clues I had left myself that I didn't even see.
- [41:55]
Oprah Winfrey
Oh, I love that. Places.
- [41:57]
Tayari Jones
Yeah.
- [41:58]
Oprah Winfrey
You didn't even see.
- [41:59]
Tayari Jones
I was like, oh, oh, oh, oh, okay.
- [42:03]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [42:05]
Tayari Jones
That's how I feel. But I, I, I, I finished it on a plane. Actually, the very final paragraph or two was written on a plane. I was on my way back from London and I burst into tears. I just burst into tears. And the lady beside me, she burst into tears, but she was drinking. And the flight attendant said, you are both cut off. Which I did not think was right, but it was fine. We were almost there. But I was moved by it. I was moved, and I was grateful that this story had been entrusted to me.
- [42:43]
Oprah Winfrey
Well, you know what is amazing, too, is that the COVID is also so intriguing. When I walked in and saw this cover, I went, wow, what's the story
- [42:52]
Tayari Jones
behind the COVID I love the COVID This was like the sixth cover they came up with. As a matter of fact, that is why I was in New York, because I had to express my concern about the earlier covers. And I came to New York because I wanted to show them that I was a sane person, that I was a sane and friendly person. And right before I got to the offices, they sent me this cover. And I felt seen. I was like, yes, this is the story. This is the honeysuckle from their hometown. I love that the word kin is so big. I like the flowers. I like the softness, the softness of it. Because so often black women's lives are not associated with softness. And so I appreciate us owning those flowers and that word kin. Did y' all find this book at least a little bit funny? I thought it was a little bit funny.
- [43:44]
Tondo
Every reference to Trifling?
- [43:47]
Oprah Winfrey
Every reference to Trifling. Yes. I thought it was funny a lot. I thought their entire experience at the brothel was pretty funny. Yes, yes, yes. I thought that was pretty funny.
- [43:58]
Tayari Jones
You know where I got the idea for the brothel? How I was in Pompeii. Did you know they had a lot of brothels in Pompeii?
- [44:05]
Oprah Winfrey
I did not know this.
- [44:06]
Tayari Jones
Yes. It's like a whole thing like, like how we have cvss, they have brothels, and the tour guide just offhandedly said that the place where the brotheling took place was uncomfortable on purpose so that the people would leave.
- [44:21]
Oprah Winfrey
Really?
- [44:22]
Tayari Jones
Yes. They did not want you, you know, spending too much time lingering, and they would. And I said, that is so interesting. And the next thing I knew, when I sat down the Right there It was.
- [44:31]
Oprah Winfrey
It showed up.
- [44:32]
Tayari Jones
It showed up.
- [44:33]
Oprah Winfrey
And so you were saying that when you're in the zone, when you touch something and it's rough or when you're in the zone, things come. It sounds like at a higher vibration,
- [44:43]
Tayari Jones
higher frequency, I can hear it in a different way. Like, it almost feels like there's an echo. When. When the. When the man said, this is a brothel, it's almost like I heard, brothel, brothel, brothel. And I was ready to go. I didn't need to see anything else. I felt like, you've seen a little bit of Pompeii. You've seen enough. I need to get home and work on my book.
- [45:01]
Oprah Winfrey
And work your book and work your book. And so as a writer, have you always been in observant mode? Do you think you see the world differently than the rest of us because you're always looking for the story?
- [45:15]
Tayari Jones
I don't know if I see the world differently, but I think I do something different with what I do see. You know, I write in my journal every morning, no matter where I am. If I don't have it with me, I'm frustrated and sad and I might just jot down a little something on a notepad in the room. So for me, it's almost like if I don't write it, I haven't fully thought about it. So even when I wasn't writing the book, in all that time, I was writing other stuff that didn't end up being in a book.
- [45:46]
Oprah Winfrey
So is it like a muscle for you? It's like keeping the muscle trained.
- [45:50]
Tayari Jones
I don't think about training because it's not painful in that way. I think it's just almost like one of the things that I do to stay whole is that I do this writing. It does take discipline, yes, but it also, when I don't do it, I can tell there's a difference in the way that I'm moving in the world. I'm less happy. I don't feel like I have purpose in the same way. And I wonder, like, what am I doing? But when I'm writing, I know what I'm doing and I know why I'm doing it. And I feel so fortunate that I figured out that I wanted to write when I was such a little child, that I just feel blessed to have always known what my passion was. And I do feel that if I don't. Almost like, if I don't use it, perhaps, like, it'll be like in the book with Isaiah and sweet, when he feels like my gift has been taken. I feel like if I don't use it in the way it's meant to be used that perhaps I will no longer be blessed with it. Like you have to be responsible with this gift you have. Wow.
- [46:54]
Oprah Winfrey
Well, you are a blessing to us. You are a blessing to us.
- [46:58]
Tayari Jones
Thank you.
- [46:58]
Oprah Winfrey
Tayari Jones. Thank you for this. Really.
- [47:01]
Tayari Jones
Thank you.
- [47:02]
Oprah Winfrey
Magnificent novel.
- [47:04]
Tayari Jones
Thank you.
- [47:07]
Oprah Winfrey
It's magnificent. Ken is available wherever books are sold and I recommend getting a copy for your best friend too or your next of kin and read it together. I'm telling you because you're not gonna wanna give up your copy. So thank you everybody, Tayari Jones and Candy.
- [47:27]
Tayari Jones
Thank you.
- [47:28]
Golda
Thank you.
- [47:32]
Oprah Winfrey
So good.
- [47:34]
Tayari Jones
Thank you.
- [47:35]
Oprah Winfrey
You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks everybod.