Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Oprah Podcast | Episode: Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Release Date: April 22, 2025

Hosted by Oprah Winfrey and presented by Harpo, this episode features Tina Knowles discussing her memoir, "Matriarch." Set in a cozy Starbucks café in her old Chicago neighborhood, Tina delves deep into her personal journey, family legacy, motherhood, and the resilience that has shaped her life.

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Introduction to "Matriarch"

Tina Knowles opens the conversation by welcoming listeners to Oprah's Book Club, presented by Starbucks, highlighting the nostalgic setting of her old Chicago neighborhood. She introduces her memoir, "Matriarch," describing it as an intimate and revealing exploration of legacy, love, loss, and perseverance passed down through generations, particularly from mother to daughter.

Tina Knowles [00:02]: "It's an intimate and revealing look into an extraordinary American life and family. It is a memoir, and it is a page turner about legacy. It's about love. It's about loss. It's about perseverance and the wisdom that is passed down through generations, especially from mother to daughter."

Exploring Family Legacy and Heritage

Tina shares poignant stories about her ancestors, highlighting the strength and resilience of the women who came before her. She recounts her great-great-grandmother, Rosalie, an enslaved woman, and her great-grandmother, Celestine, who bore ten children with her slave owner. This lineage underscores the historical struggles and unwavering spirit that have influenced Tina's identity.

Oprah Winfrey [04:30]: "I come as one, but I stand as 10,000."

Tina emphasizes the extensive research she conducted to uncover these family histories, marveling at their ability to care for their children despite immense adversity.

Early Life and Overcoming Adversity

Tina narrates her upbringing in a modest home in Weeks Island, Louisiana, where her father worked in a salt mine earning $9 a week. She paints a vivid picture of her childhood, filled with love and camaraderie despite financial hardships.

Tina Knowles [07:20]: "Because of all the camaraderie...we just created our own playground, our own world, and I just never really thought about being poor."

A significant moment in her childhood was attending a Catholic school where a nun told her she didn't belong, a comment that has left a lasting impact on her self-esteem and sense of belonging.

Tina Knowles [09:26]: "I was five."

This encounter with authority figures sowed seeds of insecurity but also ignited her fighting spirit.

Tina Knowles [10:34]: "It made me a fighter."

Motherhood and Raising Iconic Daughters

Tina discusses the distinct personalities of her daughters, Beyoncé and Solange, emphasizing the unique nurturing approaches she employed for each.

Tina Knowles [22:39]: "Solange is art. She's not just an artist. She is art."

She highlights the challenges and triumphs of raising two highly talented daughters, maintaining a balance between freedom and structure to cater to their individual needs. Tina explains how therapy played a role in strengthening the bond between Beyoncé and Solange during their childhood conflicts.

Tina Knowles [17:19]: "My fearlessness came from survival."

Personal Struggles and Empowerment

Tina opens up about her marriage to Matthew Knowles, detailing the complexities of their relationship, including his struggles with fidelity. Despite the challenges, she expresses gratitude for the supportive moments they shared and the life they built together.

Tina Knowles [35:10]: "We were a team and, you know, we had kids and we built businesses together."

Her eventual divorce marks a turning point where she prioritizes her well-being and sets a powerful example for her daughters about self-worth and happiness.

Tina Knowles [40:14]: "I'm truly at peace with myself."

She reflects on the importance of self-care and breaking free from self-sacrificing tendencies that overshadow personal happiness.

Passing Down Wisdom and Legacy

Throughout the memoir, Tina emphasizes the importance of embracing one's heritage and the lessons learned from previous generations. She instills in her daughters the value of being proud of their black identity and encourages them to "knock the doors down" in pursuit of their dreams.

Tina Knowles [19:30]: "You gotta knock the doors down and that you should be at home at any space that you choose."

Tina also shares heartfelt moments about her family, including the acceptance and love extended to her nephew Johnny, highlighting the unconditional support within their family unit.

Tina Knowles [30:46]: "Family respected him. And my brothers respected him."

Reflections and Closing Thoughts

As the conversation draws to a close, Tina reads a moving passage from her memoir, encapsulating her realization of self-worth and the peace she has found in her later years.

Tina Knowles [50:51]: "I am 70 and I just learned that I am enough. ... This precious time of gathering memories is closing. It's not an end, I know, but my new beginning."

Oprah echoes the sentiment, praising Tina for her ability to nurture strong, compassionate daughters and for her unwavering strength as a matriarch.

Oprah Winfrey [51:18]: "You're gonna love this memoir. It's gonna open up you to thinking about the matriarchs in your own life."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Tina Knowles [05:00]: "I was amazed by their resilience and their ability to still take care of their kids and make sure that they weren't sold or separated from them."

• Oprah Winfrey [07:06]: "You felt like y'all were millionaires, right?"

• Tina Knowles [09:39]: "It is."

• Tina Knowles [16:24]: "It's a class thing. They felt like their self worth was tied into teaching a teacher's kids."

• Tina Knowles [43:08]: "I just get so full and so proud when they respect people and they do charity or they do, you know, something that's a normal thing."

Conclusion

In this heartfelt episode, Tina Knowles shares her journey of resilience, love, and empowerment. "Matriarch" serves as a testament to the strength inherited from her ancestors, the challenges overcome in her personal life, and the profound impact of her role as a mother. Through her storytelling, Tina offers valuable insights and inspiration for listeners striving to lead their best lives.

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Availability: "Matriarch" is available wherever books are sold, and Tina also narrates the audio version for fans to enjoy.

Transcript

[Oprah Winfrey]

Everybody, it's Tina Knowles. It's Tina Knowles. The beehive is buzzing in here. Y'all doing it. Hi, everybody. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us on this podcast. Welcome to Oprah's Book Club, presented by Starbucks. We're here in a Starbucks cafe in my old Chicago neighborhood. I spent so many mornings and nights, 25 years walking my dogs all around this neighborhood. It feels so good to be back with you all. And I have to say, I love this idea of meeting a friend at your neighborhood Starbucks cafe to connect over a book and a delicious cup of coffee or tea. I think it's a great way to spend a morning or afternoon. And the pairing for my April's book club is the Sensera blend. It's a nice, light coffee. A Starbucks blonde roast with citrus and toasted almonds. Yummy, yummy, yummy. Toasted almonds in your coffee. Don't you love that? And now I'm just so happy to be here to tell you what my 113th book club pick is. It's an intimate and revealing look into an extraordinary American life and family. It is a memoir, and it is a page turner about legacy. It's about love. It's about loss. It's about perseverance and the wisdom that is passed down through generations, especially from mother to daughter. It's called Matriarch, and we have the matriarch, Ms. Tina Knowles. First of all, I was saying this to your editor, that this is a beautiful book. Talking about you can't judge a book by cover. I think you can. This is pretty good.

[Tina Knowles]

Well, I love this artist. He's an African artist in Legos, and I've got several paintings from him, and he always puts cherry blossoms behind it. And his paintings remind me of my mom. You know, I grew up in this little raggedy house, but my mom had the most beautiful rose bushes, and she just had this green thumb and. And there were flowers everywhere. We always had flower wallpaper. And, you know, flowers were so representative of her and her spirit.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, well, you know, you are obviously one of the most recognizable and beloved mothers. So it is no surprise to me that this book hit number one on Amazon charts the moment it was announced. Matriarch is the perfect title for your story. Why were you ready to share it now?

[Tina Knowles]

Well, you know, I thought I'd never do a memoir because, as you know, my family is super private, more so than me. But I always felt like I had to protect everybody and not talk about things. And there have been so Many narratives about me and my family, so many misconceptions, so many lies, that I decided one day, you know, do I want people to tell my story after I'm gone and create their own narrative, or should I tell it? So that was very, very important to me, that I got the story out myself.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, one of the things that I thought you did that was so admirable in matriarch is that you tell your story, and we are fully engaged in your story. And all the people that are in your life, obviously your ex husband and ex husbands and your two very famous daughters, but you also don't expose their lives in a way that it feels invasive to them. You come away with a great sense of how, first of all, you all got to be who you are. And in matriarch, you tell us about the mothers that came before you, and I want to list them. You are the daughter of Agnes and the granddaughter of Odelia, the great granddaughter of Celestine, which was your original name, who had 10 children by her slave owner, and the great great granddaughter of Rosalie, who was also an enslaved woman.

[Tina Knowles]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And one of the most sacred things that Maya Angelou had shared in one of her poems called Grandmother, she says, I come as one, but I stand as 10,000. And in this book, Matriarch, we get to see how you came as yourself, as this fearless woman. But of all the people, particularly the matriarchs behind you, that allowed you to stand, how were you able to discover so much about the matriarchs in your family?

[Tina Knowles]

Well, just research. I was amazed by their resilience and their ability to still take care of their kids and make sure that they weren't sold or separated from them.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, I have to say that the story that your mother and father were from Weeks Island, Louisiana, your father worked in a salt mine making $9 a week. Your parents story was so harrowing. I had been every anytime I asked anybody, I would start talking about this book and I would say, you gotta hear the story about her parents. Can you tell us about your father going to the mine that day? And your father and another man, because they were the lowest on the totem pole in the work order, were carrying the dynamite and there was an explosion, and your father was in the explosion, and the parts of the mind crumbled and they weren't gonna dig for anybody.

[Tina Knowles]

And then, well, they just didn't dig for people. They said there was no way that they could survive. And his brothers were like, we'll do it. You guys don't have to do it. But they put them out, and so they snuck back in after they closed. They blew the whistle at 3, and they dug my daddy and the other man out. So they saved them. And instead of being applauded for it, which you would think that they would have been, they were actually arrested and fired and.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And told that they had gone against company policy by going back to get your father.

[Tina Knowles]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And so then this is what got me. Your father. Then a union man comes along and starts talking to your father about, well, if you had been a part of the union, that wouldn't have happened to you.

[Tina Knowles]

Right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The town owners, the bosses in charge, realize that the union man has been to see your father, and somebody ends up bombing the house.

[Tina Knowles]

Yes. They threw a firebomb.

[Oprah Winfrey]

They threw a firebomb in the house, and your parents had to escape.

[Tina Knowles]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And that's how your parents ended up in Galveston.

[Tina Knowles]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Tina Knowles]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And your father ended up becoming a longshoreman, and your mother was a seamstress.

[Tina Knowles]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. So you're the baby of seven children, and you paint this vivid picture that you said you didn't feel like you were poor, although you all didn't have much. You said you felt like y'all were millionaires, right? Yeah.

[Tina Knowles]

Because of all the camaraderie. Because my sister had eight kids and my brother had four, and they all came to our house. So for me, even though we had this really poor little raggedy house, everybody was at our house. And so I just felt like, how could you feel bad about that? Because we just created our own playground, our own world, and I just never really thought about being poor until, you know, I went to Catholic school, and I was pointed out to me every day how poor we were and how worthy we were.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You and I are born three weeks. I was same age, born three weeks apart, and I was raised in the South, But I got out, my grandmother became ill, and I was sent to live with my mother in Milwaukee just before I started school. Wow. So as I was reading your story, I was thinking, wow. Not being raised in a segregated school is the thing that made all the difference for me. It's the thing that really gave me confidence. Because when I first moved to Milwaukee and I walked into kindergarten and I saw all these little kids reading, learning their ABCs, I was already a reader because my grandmother taught me how to read the Bible.

[Tina Knowles]

Right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So I was like, I'm getting myself out of here. You had a very different story. Your story was, the Catholic Church is across the street from your House and run by black Catholic nuns. And when you go to this school, this is a school that the teacher's kids, the doctor's kids, the people who had, you know, higher paying jobs, could afford to send their children to Catholic school. Your mother, who was a seamstress, had y'all dressed like Beyonce every day. You were dressed like Beyonce and your name was Beyonce. Cause that's your maiden name.

[Tina Knowles]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you go to school as this pretty little curly cued haired girl. And the nun says to you, what?

[Tina Knowles]

On the first day, well, you don't belong here. You know, if you only knew. And I was like, what? What does that mean? I had no idea what that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you were how old?

[Tina Knowles]

I was five.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Can you imagine going to school? And the first. And the. Your first teacher says to you, you don't belong here. You don't belong here. Yeah.

[Tina Knowles]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's a life defining moment.

[Tina Knowles]

It is.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, it is.

[Tina Knowles]

And it was the source of my insecurity. My whole life is not belonging or people making up their mind about you before they even know you. And it's still. I'm 71 and it's still making me emotional right now because it was such a. It's just such a horrible, evil thing to say to a kid. Yeah, because you're already insecure about everything. Yeah, well, but it made me fight, though.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And also, well, it made you a fighter. That's so interesting that it made you a fighter because, you know, when I read that story, I thought I would have shrunk. It would have made me so insecure because I was raised like your mother was raised. I was raised to respect authority. And if authority said this, then you gotta obey and you gotta, you know, color within the lines and not break the rules. It did the opposite to you. It made you fearless and a fighter.

[Tina Knowles]

It did the opposite to me because also My parents were 44 when they had me. And I realized that after seven kids and all the struggles, they were just tired. So I just had this mouth on me from day one. And I remember my aunt used to come over and she would be like that teeny, you just need to discipline her because she has no respect. But it wasn't respect. If she said something, I said, why? I questioned her. And my parents allowed me just because they were tired and I had a smart mouth. And I also realized in this book that because my mother was passive to everyone, I used to get so angry at her for being so passive. And, you know, I could tell her that and my mom would just say, oh, be quiet, Tini. And I remember us going to, like, a young white woman's house. And her calling my mom Agnes. They always called her Agnes. And she said, Ms. Smith, miss. And I was just a little kid, but I would be like, she's younger than you. You shouldn't tell her to call you Miss. Yes. And my mom would say, teenie, shut up. You just got the biggest mouth.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thanks for listening. We'll be right back with more of My Conversation.

[Starbucks Ad]

Come in to your neighborhood Starbucks to enjoy free refills of hot or iced brewed coffee or tea. So stop in and stay a while. Your free refill is ready at Starbucks. Visit starbucks.com refills for details.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Welcome back to More of My Conversation. Several things I thought were defining moments. There is a story where the nun punishes you. And you run across the street to home thinking your mother is gonna stand up for you.

[Tina Knowles]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And instead.

[Tina Knowles]

And instead my mom says. I said, I don't like them. And they're really mean, and I don't wanna go. Cause I thought it was optional. And she said, oh, you don't have a choice. You have to go back. And she brought me back across the street.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, another huge defining moment I thought was. And I couldn't believe this, that your mom didn't stand up for you in this moment. Tell us the dress story. So the nuns.

[Tina Knowles]

The nuns, they came to me and said, oh, do you have a pretty white dress?

[Oprah Winfrey]

It was going to be for some ceremony.

[Tina Knowles]

Yeah. Every Friday in Catholic school during Lent, they would crown the Blessed Virgin Mary. So you get to wear a little dress, white dress, and a mantilla, like you're a bride, and you get to crown the statue. And I thought, oh, God, they like me. So I went home, and my mom. It was on a Wednesday, and my mom went and got a remnant little piece of fabric and made me this beautiful dress. And then I brought the dress back. And they took the dress from me and gave it to Linda Kendison. Now, I'm 71 years old, but I remember Linda Kennedyson, and.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And they said, where's Linda Kinison today?

[Tina Knowles]

And they're like, her mom passed away. And I was very sympathetic, but I was like, I still don't want her to have my dress. Which set up a lot of guilt in me. Cause I was like, you know.

[Oprah Winfrey]

No, it set up a lot of guilt, Tina, because the nun said to you, you're a mean little girl. You don't want to give your address. You don't want to give your dress to her. So, I mean, I think for the nuns to set you up to lead you to believe that you're going to be the little girl that's going to be a part of that ceremony. You come with the dress, and they say, now you have to give the dress to the other person.

[Tina Knowles]

Right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I mean, that is devastating.

[Tina Knowles]

And I felt so guilty because I was like, I should not be. They were like, you're selfish. You're just such a mean, vain little girl.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And your mother says, give her the dress. Give her a dress.

[Tina Knowles]

And I'm like, I don't want her to have my dress. I mean, I was ready to fight her. And my. I was mad at the little girl, which made me feel bad because then my mom said, you still got your mom. We can make you a new dress, but she can't make another mom. So it was so confusing and abusive to a little kid. Yeah, but the lesson in that, that is so memorable for me is that the day she wore the dress. I mean, she wore the dress in crown the Blessed Virgin Mary because she was so happy and it meant so much to me because I did that, you know, and that's what. My mom was so smart because she said, you did that. You brought her that joy by giving her something that was so important to you. So my whole life, if something is really, really dear to me, when I give it away, it means so much more because it's something that I really valued. And it's easy to give away stuff that you don't care about, but it's really hard to give away things that you. That you love. So.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Especially when you're a little girl.

[Tina Knowles]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. But again, I can see where that moment of the nun saying, you're mean and you're so selfish would also instill in you this whole, I'm not good enough. I'm not worthy. I don't belong. Which is the first thing that she was trying to tell you. You know what I thought when I was reading? I said, they knew you were cute. They knew that your mother was a major contributor to the school. And as you say in matriarch, that your parents were like. Your whole family was like indentured servants to the. To. To that school. Everybody's working and cleaning the yard, and your father's driving for them, and your mother's making every single thing in. In. In the church for them. So I think that they were jealous of you. Don't you think that?

[Tina Knowles]

I. It's just.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I think they resented you. They resented you. Was a Class thing.

[Tina Knowles]

Yeah, it was a class thing. They felt like their self worth was tied into teaching a teacher's kids. And they shouldn't have to be bothered with us little poor kids. Like, we just didn't measure up. And so it was a waste of their time. That's what I got from them all the time, for sure.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Let's go to the audience. Like we said, you and I are almost exactly the same age. And from the time when children were seen and not heard, but you made sure that you were heard. Mm. That's how you got your nickname. Badass Teeny B. Yeah. And you write that God had given my mother the most cautious. You said, most cautious woman I would ever know. A girl without fear. So where's Tiffany? Yeah.

[Tina Knowles]

Yeah.

[Audience Member]

And that's what resonated with me as well. My parents, my mom specifically taught me how to respect my elders and everything. But she also gave me a voice. It's okay to question. It's okay to speak out of something as it wasn't right. My question to you, Ms. Tina, was what gave you that fearlessness? What inspired you to want to speak out when things weren't right, not just with yourself, but with people that you love as well?

[Tina Knowles]

Well, I think my fearlessness came from survival. You know, for someone to tell you, I'm going to break the evil spirit in you. And you just vibe. Like, I knew that if I didn't stay stand up to them that they would just really abuse me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Imagine you were five and a nun. A nun, all nun, like, says to you, I'm going to break the evil spirit in you.

[Tina Knowles]

And you're five and vain, they used to always say. And I went home and asked my mom, I was like, what is vain? And she said, it's when you think you're cute. And I was like, oh, I'm never going to have anybody think that I think I'm cute. But I would say in my head, I would call them the B word in my head. Cause I was a little cusser. And I would just think to myself, no, you not. No you not. And stand up to them. I was just so stubborn. I mean, if you talk to anyone in my family, they will tell you how stubborn I was.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So your mother would tell you family stories under a pican tree, which you say nourished your soul. And I love that whole section of the book so much you write. A part of that was my mother making sure that I knew what an honor it was to be black. You've been known to wear T shirts that reads 100% black. And you once declared, I'm the blackest woman you'll ever meet. Yumi in our audience has a question about that.

[Starbucks Ad]

Hi. I was just really struck by that line of I'm the blackest woman you'll ever meet, and just thought about the. Not only the motherhood, but the themes of liberation. In fact, that line of Celestine set herself free and her family free. My mother walked out of a civil war in Liberia and actually resettled in Houston, was a seamstress, sewed all of our clothes. And I just thought about that idea of, you know, when she was teaching you about how your value is tied to your service to others, and you wanted to fight that and talk about liberation.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And.

[Starbucks Ad]

And my question is, what is your advice to black women who are in spaces that are not designed for them or not designed for them to own those spaces? How do you encourage them to own the space and to liberate themselves?

[Tina Knowles]

Well, that's a great question. You know, I've always preached to my daughters that you gotta knock the doors down and that you should be at home at any space that you choose. And, I mean, that was preached to them from the time they were younger, because I wasn't given that. I wasn't given that message all the time from my mother. But what I did get from her is that it was an honor to be black, that it was spicier, that it was, you know, it was strong. It was. It was the best. That our music was the best and our cooking was the best. The way we walked, the way we dressed. I mean, my mom loved dressing, and, I mean, that's such a great thing. My daddy and my mama were sharp. They didn't have any money, but they made sure they're sharp, even if they had to get, you know, goodwill. I got Goodwill shoes my whole younger life because my mom would say, I'm finding you some Buster Browns.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Y'all remember Buster Browns? Anybody old enough to know Busta Browns?

[Tina Knowles]

So I was always taught to be very, very proud of being black.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow. And your maiden name is Beyonce.

[Tina Knowles]

Mm.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And so when your daughter was born, you decided that you would call her Beyonce because it was a way of passing it on.

[Tina Knowles]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Tina Knowles]

Yes. Because, you know, we didn't have a lot of boys, so I was like, the name is gonna become extinct. So I named her Beyonce. Much to my dad, he was like, girl, that baby gonna be really mad at you because you're naming her last name in matriarch.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You also share what it was like raising your daughters, Beyonce and Solange. And you did a beautiful job of letting us know what that was. And I think that what you did so beautifully also was you gave equal billing to both of them. Right. And I know that was important to you, right?

[Tina Knowles]

Yes, it was very important to me to just highlight both of them, because obviously, you know, when I go on shows or I do anything, people, you know, they. They like to talk about one of my children. And so I have to include all of them. Yeah, that was really, really important. It's a constant thing for me to have to fight for.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, what's interesting is, though, that you could see from the very beginning, and all of those of you who are mothers know this is true, that none of the children are alike. They come into the world with their own thing, their own nature, and then there's the nurturing that you all give to them. And from the very beginning, they were so different. You tell us in matriarch, you all learned early on that when Beyonce was a baby, that she could only be soothed with music, and Solange was the opposite. She would be soothed by reading and other things, but Beyonce only responded to music. And you say that Beyonce loved the freedom of your family dynamic that it gave her, But Solange wanted something more practical and more structured. How did you figure that out?

[Tina Knowles]

Well, it was very obvious from the very beginning, because Solange, one of my girlfriends, was very structured, very educated. You know, everything had to be a certain way. Her kids made straight A's, and Solange was very attracted to it. So she was always telling me I didn't measure up to Cheryl. Yeah, in no uncertain terms, you know, And Beyonce loved the freedom of not having a structure. And Beyonce was very much like me. Cause when I never enjoyed school, I don't ever have a good memory other than the talent shows or the black history program or something that was creative, or even home economics, where I got to sew and do things. I'm that creative force. And I think for Bea, in her creative space, I think she was very much like me. So I could really relate to her because she could do the work if she wanted to, but she didn't want to. If she could have skipped school, she would have skipped school and just had her music on.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, and yeah, there was that one time you skipped school, and Solange was very upset. You took the girls to the beach, and Solange was very upset, because what kind of mother would skip. Let us skip school, Right?

[Tina Knowles]

She would say it all the time. She would say it to my friend Cheryl, and she would say it to the therapist. And the therapist is like, you know, solange needs structure. And I'm like, God. You know, it's like, I wasn't a good mom because I love for them to miss school and hang out with me. And my mama loved for me to miss school. She would say, your stomach hurt. Okay, you don't have to go. And so I know that that wasn't the responsible thing. And she reminds me to this day of, you know, she accepts it now Solange does. But when she went to see the therapist, she was like, my mama is so irresponsible. You know, I think this is so.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Interesting that you put your daughters in therapy at a very young age, at a time when it was considered taboo, especially in the black community. I remember in 1986, when I started the Oprah show, everybody was like, I would never go to a therapist. And going to a therapist makes. Makes you crazy.

[Tina Knowles]

That's what happened.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And one of your siblings. You're gonna make the girls crazy. Yes, because they're too young. Something in your instinct said the girls needed to go to therapy. Why?

[Tina Knowles]

I got so scared because they were, like, super close. Then all of a sudden, Solange was going, taking Beyonce's stuff, and Beyonce was kind of being a little mean to her. And I had never seen it before. It scared me to death because I was like, I want them to be close, and I want them to respect and love each other.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Is this after Beyonce started performing?

[Tina Knowles]

Yeah, Beyonce was performing. She was this little local star, and Solange was coming. She started very early too. But it was like, people would. If they saw the two girls, they would say, oh, God, you know, oh, she's so talented. And she. And you know how they do. And then my other child is there, and I'm like, hey, you better tell her something too.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Tina Knowles]

So I didn't have any problem doing that. But I saw this thing, and I think you saw the division started. I saw the division, and also what really shocked me and made me move forward with it was the girls. The group was at our house all the time, and I just noticed they started saying, sit down, Solange. Shut up, Solange. And Beyonce wasn't defending her. So that mama bear, that defender in me said, uh, you gotta protect your sister. She's like, but she gets on my nerves. She's all in my stuff. So that's why I took them. And it was the best thing I could have ever done for them because they got close again. And Beyonce started respecting Solange because, you know, the therapist was saying, you're going to make your little sister, you know, feel very insecure.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thanks for listening. We'll be right back.

[Tina Knowles]

The Starbucks you love is ready.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Our baristas are ready. The world's best coffee beans are ready.

[Tina Knowles]

That feeling that only the perfect sift can give you is ready.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Hello again from the Starbucks Coffee company. Starbucks is a registered trademark of Starbucks Coffee Company. Welcome back to more of my conversation. Let's talk about the discovery of Beyonce. Can you tell us a story about you and your ex husband Matthew watching her perform for the first time when you saw her on Stage?

[Tina Knowles]

She was 7 years old, and she did this parochial. They called it a parochial school talent show with up to high school. And I was so scared because I was like, they're going to ruin her confidence. But she got out there and just turned into the biggest little diva on stage. And she was shy, you know, very shy. That's why we got her into it anyway. And she. We couldn't believe that it was her. And she came off the stage. I mean, she got a standing ovation, and she came off the stage and she was like, I'm hungry. I want to just get my trophy and my money and go. And I'm like, oh, my God. Because, you know, that. That old thing about being cocky or thinking you're cute or thinking you're all that kicked in for me. So I was like, you don't know if you won, and you gotta be humble and, you know. But anyway, it was the best thing that could happen to her because she could turn it off. Like, when she came off the stage, she was just Beyonce, and she's still like that. I mean, she's the furthest thing from a diva that you could be.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's because of the way she was raised.

[Tina Knowles]

Diva? Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, yeah, and we love it. Listen, I play Cowboy Carter every single morning. My alarm is Texas Hold'em. Okay? This ain't Texas. Okay. I have to say, though, that your ability to see the difference between the daughters and make a distinction, I think is what has allowed them to be as close as they are now and also to be respectful of it. I loved in the book where you say, solange is art.

[Tina Knowles]

She is art.

[Oprah Winfrey]

She's not just an artist. She is art.

[Tina Knowles]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, she is.

[Tina Knowles]

Because everything is seen through the lens of art. I mean, sometimes it's irritating because I'm like, girl, this ain't art. This is life. But that's how she sees things, as an Art piece. And it's different. It's really unique.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Let's talk about Johnny or Uncle Johnny. We know him in Beyonce's song Heated. We know that so much of the Renaissance was dedicated to him. He was your nephew.

[Tina Knowles]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But also your best friend. He was your confidant. He was your partner in crime.

[Tina Knowles]

Yes, always.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And I thought it was really interesting that for these times, he was so accepted and embraced in the family.

[Tina Knowles]

Right? Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You say Johnny lived life, which is different from just living. And my friend Paulo and his husband Patrick are here. Patrick, you have a question about this, right?

[Audience Member]

I do, I do. There was actually a line about Johnny that just. I stopped and I had to read it again. And I started to cry because you said Johnny was obviously gay by the time he was 3 years old. And I felt like I already knew the end of the sentence was gonna be about how hard and struggle and traumatic it was. I'm from New Iberia, which is right up from Weeks Island. So, like, I thought of my own experience and how hard it was. The rest, you know, the description would be. But then the second half of the sentence just took me aback because you said, and I never knew him to hide that light. And you describing his gayness as a light just. It made me so emotional because it made me think of myself and look back at the little boy I was and the story I have about how hard and shameful and you had to hide and suppress. And then I was able to really look at myself and see light there. And it just was amazing. It was an extraordinary act of, like, unconditional love. And I just wonder if it felt like that to you or if it just felt normal, like that's how your family was. No big deal.

[Tina Knowles]

It felt so normal to me because Johnny was so special. And I just thought everybody accepted. You know, we just always accepted it. And his mother accepted him, and my mother accepted him. He was, you know, her favorite grandchild. And so people respected him because we respected him.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Clue. That's such a powerful thing. People respected him because his family respected him.

[Tina Knowles]

Family respected him. And my brothers respected him. My brothers were these macho athletes, and my nephews were. But they accepted Johnny. They walked down the street with Johnny and his sharp clothes, and we were proud of him. And so everybody else was.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Didn't they try to get him one time to play ball, some kind of ball?

[Tina Knowles]

They made him play basketball. He didn't like it at all.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And I happened to you, too.

[Audience Member]

Same.

[Tina Knowles]

They were going to macho, but Just to protect him, though it came from a love of protection for him, not from a we're gonna beat you down type way. And they left him alone after that. And they was like, johnny will make the costumes for basketball, but he don't.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do nothing to play basketball. Well, we can certainly see where Beyonce's flair for costuming, because when you go to any of the concerts, it's all about the show and the costumes. It's such a big part of the fantasy that she creates on stage that transforms the audience. And you could. I could see from the first story about your mother and knowing then knowing that your mother came from seamstress and you know how to do it, and that you were doing all the clothes, all the clothes for Destiny's Child and the way you were treated in the beginning by the record company, doing those clothes. So disrespectful. Yeah, yeah.

[Tina Knowles]

Not only the record company, but when I would go to shoots and people wouldn't talk to me or, you know. Cause I was country and I had this big hair, and I never, in the early days, would do myself up because I was so busy all the time. And it was also a thing of not wanting to stand out, I think. You know, I've thought about it many times because I don't have a passive personality. But I would let people say things because I think I thought I deserved to be not on their level back then.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, you don't belong here.

[Tina Knowles]

Exactly.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That none.

[Tina Knowles]

Thing resonated in your brain.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You don't belong here. And so you were doing the clothes, and the record company people are complaining that they're looking too much like the Supreme Court. You're trying to make them look like Motown.

[Tina Knowles]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And then that all changed when.

[Tina Knowles]

Well, it changed later, but it was a fight. The whole thing was a fight for a long time. And then, you know. But people love the costumes. The people love the costumes. The fashion magazines didn't love them. The designers didn't love them. They made fun of it all the time. And even to the point where I remember Beyonce went to the Oscars one year, and I did this fabulous gown with, like, origami. It was black and gold, and everybody was going crazy on the red carpet. And then when she said. Finally felt comfortable to say, my mom did the dress, they said that it looked like I got the. The fabric out the drapes and made it for her. Because it was like, you know, and it was so defeating because I was so excited, because I was like, finally they accept it. And, you know, they Made fun of it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You know, the other thing that was so interesting is that your ex husband, Matthew was able to instill within the girls at a very early age how to protect their money.

[Tina Knowles]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And I think that, first of all, I think you were very fair to your ex in this book. Cause I know there's lots of things you could have said that did not get said in this book. There was a never ending cycle of him cheating. I mean, from the first sentence that you write about that shortly after you all got married, I think the sentence was something like, he had a problem with fidelity.

[Tina Knowles]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And Roshni, you have a question about that? I do.

[Tina Knowles]

I was married six years, divorced for eight, recently remarried.

[Audience Member]

And though there was infidelity in my.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Marriage, the things that existed before I.

[Tina Knowles]

Got married with my husband was very much present in my marriage. I just didn't see it. So the question is really when you.

[Audience Member]

Had the early signs from Matthew, what.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Made you want to commit or move.

[Tina Knowles]

Ahead anyways, but then what kept you there? First of all, I hope that I made it very clear in the book that my whole life with Matthew was not filled with heartache, that there were some amazing moments also.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Tina Knowles]

I also had just lost my mom at 26. He knew my mom, I knew his mom. And what he was, was so kind to my family. My family is everything to me. So imagine you losing your mom at 26. Your brothers and sisters are older, they got their own families, and you feel so alone. And like, that's my best friend, you know? And in a lot of ways he had an issue, but he was so kind to me. And it sounds crazy because that's not kind to cheat on somebody. I think he had, you know, he had an illness. But we were a team and, you know, we had kids and we built a life together, we built businesses together. We connected on so many levels. So I don't know, when I look at it now, I can't believe I stayed there for that long. Self esteem issues, obviously. You know those nuns telling me I wasn't good enough. So I was like, I'm lucky to have somebody that's successful and smart.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Did you ever.

[Tina Knowles]

Better than me? Did you ever, in some ways you think that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Did you ever. I was going to say, did you think it was because you weren't doing enough, that you weren't enough for him? Did you think that?

[Tina Knowles]

Oh, yeah, at times, yeah. I think. I think you do go through that when somebody cheats on you. And it also keeps you in a cycle of it's kind of like somebody slapping you in the face and then you don't get to recover and then you get another slap in the face. You can't really get your strength up, you know, and there were times when I did get my strength up and. But then I would have these kids and I say, you know, I'm going to be by myself for the rest of my life because I'm not going to bring some man around my kids. You know, that was always that fear of protection. And I swear, every time somebody would start messing with me. And he was my protector. He was always a protector. He's still my protector. If something went wrong, I would want him on my team.

[Oprah Winfrey]

How would you describe. How is your relationship today? Because you all are.

[Tina Knowles]

Yeah, we're fine. I say in the book that I still love him as a brother, even though the things he did, I knew that they were out of an illness, they weren't intentional. And that sounds crazy. I know I still sound codependent, but I just know that he would take a bullet for me. And if somebody messed with me, he was right there all the time. He was the person who always told me, you could do anything. You could do anything you put your mind to. You can have whatever you want to have. I mean, he believed in me when. When nobody else did.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Tina Knowles]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And then you married again when you were 61, I think, to actor Richard Lawson and divorce after almost 10 years. And our friend Tyler Perry, in the book you talk about, told you something. What was that? He told you about that?

[Tina Knowles]

He just told me that. I told him what happened and he loves Richard also. And he was like, I'm very sad to hear that. And I said, but, you know, this marriage is not bringing out the best in me. And I have finally found my worth. And I know that I deserve to be happy. I know I deserve to be. For somebody to be happy when they see me and to celebrate me. And it's not doing it for me. It's bringing out the worst in me and it's got to stop. And he said, I mean, he was teary eyed and he was like, I am so proud of you. Coming from a family where women stayed no matter what, and it's taken a lot of courage. I said, I'm doing this for my daughters, too, so I want to set that example for them. And he said, you're not only doing it for your daughters, but you're doing it for your grandson because you think that you're doing something to stay in a Marriage that's unhappy, that you're not celebrated or you feel fulfilled. You are affecting your grandson too, because he wants you to be happy and how he's going to treat the woman that comes along. And I never thought about that, but he was just so supportive of me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, you write something that really, I think helps us to see the kind of woman and matriarch you've been all these years. You say mothering someone is such an important job, you naturally put yourself on the back burner wanting to do so well that you end up losing yourself. You say, I was no doormat, but I was damn sure hardheaded about taking care of everybody except me and yes, getting the praise for it. So what was the turning point that you realized enough that moment where you say to the girls, look, I'm going to start taking care of myself?

[Tina Knowles]

Well, that was after my divorce and I was really nervous about it because I had been so engrossed in taking care of them and making sure that they were okay and not feeling worthy of, you know, just loving myself and taking care of myself or taking a day off. If I was in the middle of something that I really wanted to do and my girls called me, I would drop whatever, whomever and be right there. And so I felt like I had to have that talk with them to warn them. And I was scared of how they would react because, you know, you guys know, mothers are kind of taking. My kids are wonderful, they acknowledge me, they love me, they would do anything for me, but they do kids. It's a kid's nature to be a little self centered. But I told them and surprisingly they said, mom, we so happy to hear that. Because, you know, they were excited for me. They weren't pissed off about it. They were actually excited that I was gonna have my own life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Lindsey, you have a question? Hi.

[Tina Knowles]

Hi.

[Audience Member]

Oprah and Ms. Tina. I met my husband shortly after his first wife passed away. And as someone who's mothering five children, so two biological and three step children, I tend to just doubt myself and constantly feel like I'm not enough of a mother to each of them or my own expectations. And I think that's why I was personally so moved later in the book when your daughters were reassuring you that all your sacrifices had impact and made them who they are. Knowing that and also knowing that you've mothered one of the most successful artists of all time, I'm curious if you still have those feelings of self doubt or regrets or all the things we could have, should have done. Or do you say, you know what? I'm truly now at peace.

[Tina Knowles]

I am truly at peace with myself. I have never felt better about myself in my life. It's something about turning 70, that all of my mistakes and things, the shame that I had about a lot of things, I tell them all the time. And I don't know if I could say this, but I don't give a shit anymore about what somebody thinks of me, what they say about me. I'm just protective of my kids. So I don't want to ever do anything to embarrass them or make them feel bad. But other than that, what you say about me kind of rolls off my back because I feel good about me. I feel good about taking the time for myself to look nice and to dress nice and to take care of me. I don't have any guilt or shame about it. So I feel really good about it. And I know that I made a lot of mistakes. And I think if I had anything that I would do over again, it would be that I would have left the marriage way earlier, because I still feel that I didn't set the greatest example in that way for them.

[Audience Member]

I think you've done a pretty darn good job.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you now have six grandchildren.

[Tina Knowles]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Beyonce's blue twins, Rumi and Sir Solange's Jules and Kelly's Titan and Noah.

[Tina Knowles]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And Clotiel. I hear you have a question.

[Tina Knowles]

Thank you. Yes. So in the. You mentioned that the nun and holy.

[Audience Member]

Rosary stated that you weren't, you know, good enough, basically.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right.

[Tina Knowles]

And there were moments of not belonging throughout the book, but you said, I belong anywhere I want to be.

[Audience Member]

So how has those words played a.

[Tina Knowles]

Role in your success? And how have you been able to pass that on to your children and your grandchildren? It's funny, because my girls will say, mama, you don't always have to have your dukes up. You know, Beyonce tells me that all the time, but I think I had to fight for space. But I think. I don't know if it was the nuns telling me I didn't belong, that I fought to belong in the spaces that I've been in. And I taught them from day one that they deserved to be anywhere that they wanted to be. And that, again, people will not always welcome you, but you gotta welcome yourself.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay. You say that you've been asked many times, what is the proudest moment you've had with your daughters? And what is your answer?

[Tina Knowles]

Oh, God. The proudest moments are when they do something that's not about entertainment. But when they. They do a charitable thing and they are good people, just regular good people and have good hearts. That sounds corny and it sounds like a cliche, but it's really the truth. I just get so full and so proud when they respect people and they do charity or they do, you know, something that's a normal thing.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You got to have been proud. Listen, when it was announced that Beyonce won the album, after all this time, after all this time, I was like. Because I was just sitting there like, okay, who's going to be?

[Tina Knowles]

I know, me too.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Who's it going to be? And I almost peed on myself when it happened. I was just like, oh, my God, it happened. It happened. So that had to be. It had to feel like finally.

[Tina Knowles]

But you know what? It was more so than pride. I felt like it was fair. That was my happiness. I just felt like they gave her a fair shot for the real. You know, she's won a lot of Grammys, but sometimes I felt like some of those were consolation prizes. And so for me, I don't know if I was so much proud as I was happy for her.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Like, finally. Yeah, finally you got the recognition you deserved.

[Tina Knowles]

You got the recognition you deserved, you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Know, for an album that was so out of the box.

[Tina Knowles]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Tina Knowles]

And that. That came from a place of. Of pride for her, because when. When she went to that award show, you know, she was not treated well. And it was very much me back at Holy Rosary with somebody saying, you don't belong here, and, you know, you're not good enough. And that was like saying, I took my seat at the table whether you like it or not. And I deserve to be here. I deserve to be anywhere I want to be.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, anywhere you want to be. You tell the story of. I think it was the first album, and you all walk into the listening session, and there are all these guys around, and they're saying, there's not one single hit on this album. And it turns out, yeah, there wasn't one single Beyonce's album. There was five. There was five hits. That's the best film. But that condescension that still doubting, that still lack of respect that you all were getting when she was Beyonce.

[Tina Knowles]

I wondered about that. Why, but they really set us up. And if I wasn't Badass Teeny B, who produced Badass Beyonce, we would have said, okay, we better go back to the drawing board. But that just made us want to fight, and it challenged her to go and get Jay on the record, which is great. But the sad part is it came because she said they wouldn't do this to Jay. They wouldn't tell him this, but they're telling me this.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. And so from the beginning, you saw this relationship between Jay and her blossoming.

[Tina Knowles]

Not from the beginning, because they talked for, like, a year on the phone. And I was like, oh, God, I don't ever remember talking to somebody for a year on time. Like, this is moving really slow. And so it took them a year to really get together. And when she went to do, you know, the movie in LA was, I think, the first time that they. He had been to our house for dinner. And, you know, but they weren't dating then, and they weren't talking like that. So. Yeah, it took a long. I mean, they moved pretty slow.

[Oprah Winfrey]

As matriarch, having passed on your love and wisdom and nurturing now to your daughters. What kind of matriarchs are they?

[Tina Knowles]

Oh, God, that is. I can't believe how good of a mother they are. All of them. They're just really good mothers that are natural and that they love their kids and they put their kids first. And I'm getting emotional because I feel like I passed that on because my kids were always my priority. Because I did a lot of screwing up when I was younger, and I was a little bit rebellious. And I went through the thing with being mad at my mom. And so all the things that she didn't give me, I decided I was gonna give it to them.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But now you understand. I mean, we understand why you were mad at your mom that moment. You overheard that conversation where you had been taken to the hospital, and you overheard your mom say, after you were examined, was she pregnant or is she pregnant?

[Tina Knowles]

It was the most hurtful thing ever. Cause I wasn't thinking about screwing in, because I was really focused on getting out of that town. I don't know if I'm saying the wrong thing, but I'm just saying, like, I wasn't. And so it was a very painful thing for me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So what it said to you is your mom didn't trust you.

[Tina Knowles]

She didn't trust me. But my mom trusted. Told me eventually it wasn't you that I didn't trust. I didn't trust the world with you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. And that's what I thought about your mom. I thought, yes, she was passive, but she also was fearful, as all black moms needed to be. Because look at what happened to your brother.

[Tina Knowles]

Right?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Your whole family was traumatized for years in that town. And your brother beaten and the family harassed and you arrested and all that. And so your mother had reason to fear.

[Tina Knowles]

And just think about, how could she?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Black southern moms would fear every time your child is out of the house.

[Tina Knowles]

And I'm fearful every time my grandson is out of the house. You know, I'm like, you know, make sure you do this. I mean, we as black women have to teach our sons and our grandsons and our granddaughters because my mom was always saying, you got the biggest mouth and you don't know how to control your temper. And you're so smart mouthed. If somebody stops you, just shut up. Just shut up and make it home. And that's a shame that we have to tell our kids to shut up and make it home.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, I want to end with this beautiful passage in the memoir. Would you read it?

[Tina Knowles]

I am 70 and I just learned that I am enough. I wish I would have realized this at 40 or 50, maybe even younger, but that is why I am telling you I have tried to collect as much of that wisdom as I can to pass on here. This precious time of gathering memories is closing. It's not an end, I know, but my new beginning.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Tina Knowles]

Liberation.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Liberation time. I'm telling you all, you're gonna love this memoir. It's gonna open up you to thinking about the matriarchs in your own life. You did such a great job. Congratulations to you and to your editor and all the people who made this possible who decided. Look at you on here, honey. I don't know if you think you cute, but you ought to think you're really cute. Patriarch is available wherever books are sold. And Ms. Tina also reads the audio version of this book. Thank you so much.