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- [00:04]
Oprah Winfrey
Hey, I'm here with Golly Lamb. Hey, hey, hey. Nice to see y' all. I'm here with Wally Lamb. Are you guys ready? Yeah, I think I'm ready to go. Oh, y' all look so cute. Hi there, everybody. I'm so glad to meet up with you here for Oprah's Book Club presented by Starbucks. We're in Seattle, where we've had such a warm welcome at the iconic Starbucks headquarters and where it's also warm in Seattle and gorgeous, where Starbucks first opened over 50 years ago. And before we get started, I want to say for each of our book club selections, Starbucks pairs one of their crafted drinks. And this month it's an iced horchata oat milk shaken espresso. And it's summer's newest sip, a refreshing non dairy pick me up made with Starbucks blonde espresso roast blended with horchata syrup, which is a fusion of cinnamon and vanilla and sweet rice flavors, and then shaken with ice and topped with creamy oat milk. That sounds so delicious. So now I want to tell you my 115th book club selection is a novel that stays with you in so many ways. It is a timely story of unimaginable grief and loss mixed with hope, some healing, and ultimately, I think, redemption. It is called the river is Waiting by Wally Lam. And I have to tell you, this is the third time I've chosen a Wally Lamb novel for my book club because I just so appreciate his writing mind. And the first was She's Come Undone, and then his novel, I Know this Much Is True, which a whole miniseries was made from that. And now here we are. Thank you for being here. It's just, it's wonderful to see you again.
- [02:05]
Wally Lamb
Oh, my pleasure, too. It's been over 20 years since you.
- [02:08]
Oprah Winfrey
And I talked the first time.
- [02:10]
Wally Lamb
Yeah.
- [02:10]
Oprah Winfrey
So while he was reminding me backstage, tell we're going to share this with the audience. So Alice McGee was the original producer for the Oprah show who introduced this idea of having a book club. And Alice and I, as friends, used to exchange books so long before I had a book club. So the book club started in 1996 or 97, long before I had a book club. Alice and I would just read books and she'd pass off books just like you do with your friends. And it was Alice who said to me one day, oh, you should start a book club and we should do this on the air. And I was like, alice, how are we going to do that? Because you can't talk about novels unless people have read the novels. And she said, ask people to read and then bring the authors on. So, brilliant idea to this day from Alice McGee. But before I had a book club, Alice and I would just read ourselves. And we loved authors so much. And it used to be that in the back of the book, there'd be a picture of the author and the town that they lived in. Yeah, it still says that you live in Connecticut and New York, but it doesn't say the town. Okay. So it used to say the town that they lived in. So Alice and I called information and got your number from the phone book in your town. This is before I had a book club. And we just wanted to tell you that we'd read She's Come Undone and how much we loved it. And I remember this day because when we called and it's like, wally Lamb. Is this Wally Lamb? He goes, yes. And he was like, this is Oprah Winfrey, and this is Alice McGee. And you were like, well, I was just doing my laundry. Let me put my basket down. And we were like, authors do laundry. Do you remember that?
- [03:48]
Wally Lamb
Meanwhile, I thought I was being pranked.
- [03:50]
Oprah Winfrey
Really?
- [03:50]
Wally Lamb
And, well, I almost. I didn't, but I almost said, oh, yeah, you're Oprah, and I'm Geraldo Rivera.
- [03:58]
Oprah Winfrey
Wow. So that was long before I even had a book club. And then later, like, five years later, I called you and said, I want to choose this book for a book club. So now this audience has read the River Is Waiting, and I hear you loved it. Hannah, where are you? I love this book, Wally. And, you know, for me, although there were dark moments, there were tragic moments. What I loved about it was that it really explored the human experience in the rawest form. Sorrowness and sadness is something we all experience. And Emily demonstrated moving on and, you know, lessons learned and. And really how to build a path forward even after a lot of tragedy. So thank you for writing the book. All right. All right. Elizabeth, how about you?
- [04:43]
Audience Member 1
I also really love this book.
- [04:44]
Oprah Winfrey
It definitely was an emotional rollercoaster.
- [04:46]
Audience Member 1
Reading it.
- [04:47]
Audience Member 2
It was a very amazing journey to.
- [04:50]
Audience Member 1
Watch this character and how he developed.
- [04:52]
Audience Member 2
And you really felt like you're rooting for a flawed individual, and, like, it's.
- [04:56]
Audience Member 1
Okay to be flawed, but you still have hope.
- [04:58]
Audience Member 2
So it was very uplifting.
- [05:00]
Wally Lamb
You know, I never know where my story is going. I start with a character that I'm worried about, and so I was hopeful, but I wasn't sure, you know, what his path was going to be. I sometimes envious of people who write novels by starting with an outline, and they know what they're driving toward. Doesn't work that way for me.
- [05:25]
Oprah Winfrey
It doesn't. So you started with this character, but you didn't know where he was going?
- [05:29]
Wally Lamb
No.
- [05:29]
Oprah Winfrey
How did you know this character?
- [05:33]
Wally Lamb
Well, first of all, before I knew the character, I knew the tragedy. I had been thumbing through a newspaper, and I read about backover tragedies whereby a toddler is behind the car and the parent, usually the parent doesn't see him and backed over their child. Yes. And in the article I read, they said that 1 out of 10 kids who are backed over does not survive. Now, at the time, we had our first grandchild who was a toddler, and I was so petrified when I read about that because I had just bought a car that has a backup camera. But. But I knew that my son, the father of this little boy, lived down in New Orleans. And so I called him up and I said, jared, if you come up here, if you fly up, I'll give you my car. It's got a backup camera. And just drive. You can drive it back, and I'll just get another car. And so he did that, and, you know, and I. I felt a little bit more relaxed.
- [06:36]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah. Those backup cameras have made a huge difference. I want you watching and listening to read. Enjoy this utterly compelling book. So we'll try not to give too much away in this conversation, but the story revolves somebody who needed a backup camera. It revolves around Corby, a husband and father of two young children who was just laid off from his job. And he starts drinking during the day and taking prescription pills to deal with the stress while his wife, Emily, is working like crazy to support the family. And I think this is a timely topic for the millennial generation who are facing so many challenges. How does this writing process work for you? You were saying that you'd seen all of these stories about backups, but how did Corby come into your view?
- [07:32]
Wally Lamb
Well, you know, I'm not a. I'm not a very good. I'm not very good at math. And usually with my other books, I made the main character my age so I wouldn't have to do a whole lot of research. But I. This character is my kid's age, you know, and. And so I started with that, and. And I. I just. I began worrying about him. And I know that, you know, lots of times I'm just spinning my wheels when I'm going to write a new novel. And so. But this one sort of, you know, it took.
- [08:06]
Oprah Winfrey
It came because you were reading these articles about people losing their children for lack of a backup camera.
- [08:13]
Wally Lamb
But also with this book, I had just finished up a 20 year volunteer teaching position at a women's prison in Connecticut. And so I had all of their stories in my head too. You know, how. How is it that you end up in prison and what happens to you when you get there?
- [08:32]
Oprah Winfrey
Mm. So for those of you who haven't read, our audience is all read. So let me just tell you. A tragedy occurs while the main character, Corby, is home with the kids. Ultimately, he's charged in the accidental death of his two year old son, Nico, and goes to prison. So you end up exploring the arc of Corby's experience in prison. I was surprised because you've done all of this work teaching, writing at a women's prison that you didn't do a female character who had, you know, was accused. Why did you choose a man's prison?
- [09:08]
Wally Lamb
That was just who came to me, Corby. And, and my rationale was that, okay, men's prisons and women's prisons are different in a lot of ways, but in a lot of ways they are the same. You know, that whole thing of, you know, should prison punish or should it try to rehabilitate? And I think that, I think that happens in, in both institutions that there's.
- [09:31]
Oprah Winfrey
A combination of punishment and rehabilitation.
- [09:33]
Wally Lamb
Right.
- [09:34]
Oprah Winfrey
Is there a lot of rehabilitation going on?
- [09:37]
Wally Lamb
I. One of my, one of my prison students, Tabitha, she had a brother who was murdered, and she went, you know, after she's out of prison, she went to the sentencing hearing and she said to the guy who was, you know, the murderer, she said, when you go in there, she was shaking her hand, her finger. She said, when you go in there, don't waste your time, fix yourself. And, and so I think what I, what I picked up from that is that if you're going to rehabilitate in prison, you got to do the heavy lifting because, you know, there may be. There may be, you know, psychiatrists, there may be know programs, rehabilitative program, but, you know, unless you invest wholeheartedly.
- [10:24]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah, everyone I've ever spoken to who's been in prison ends up doing that for themselves. They have, including Nelson Mandela, who said he made a decision to become a different man in prison. And he had been imprisoned, as we know, unjustly, but that he used prison as a time to work on himself, evolve himself, and become a better man. And so this audience has great questions for you. Wally, Tiana, where are you?
- [10:49]
Audience Member 2
Right here.
- [10:50]
Oprah Winfrey
There you go. Hi.
- [10:51]
Audience Member 2
Hi, Tiana. So honored to be here. Thank you for having me.
- [10:54]
Oprah Winfrey
Thank you.
- [10:55]
Audience Member 2
I experienced a lot of grief and loss in my childhood, and I lost both my parents by age 11. So reading this book, it really brought up reflection on my own journey and seeking enlightenment and just clarity in any way I can. So I was wondering while riding the river is Waiting, did you learn anything new about yourself or the human condition?
- [11:20]
Wally Lamb
I did learn about myself. I learned to be more angry than I had been about, about social injustice. And I, you know, I had always disapproved of racism and social injustice, but I didn't, I didn't invest my anger so much. And then, of course, working for 20 years with the women at the prison and hearing their stories. See, to me, I think the theme is about power and powerlessness and powerlessness and the abuse of power. And I see that whether it's the schoolyard bully or, you know, the abusive spouse or, you know, the verbal abuser or a government can, can abuse power. So I was more emotionally. I am more emotionally invested than perhaps I used to be.
- [12:22]
Audience Member 2
Thank you.
- [12:23]
Oprah Winfrey
More so even than all the years of working with all these women in prison, because as we stated earlier, you had a writing program, volunteered as a teacher for 20 years, teaching, teaching women in prison how to write their own stories. And I would think you would see so much and hear so much in reading their stories, and you would be outraged by the injustices so many of them suffered. And so writing this book was even more compelling.
- [12:49]
Wally Lamb
It upped the ante for me.
- [12:50]
Oprah Winfrey
Yes, it upped the ante.
- [12:51]
Wally Lamb
Yeah. And so, I mean, when I started, I was in college in the late 60s, early 70s, so, you know, protest was a part of, you know, my experience, Vietnam and civil rights and all that stuff. But, but, yeah, I, I get out there.
- [13:07]
Oprah Winfrey
Now you get out there in terms of protest or you get out there in terms of your writing?
- [13:11]
Wally Lamb
Both.
- [13:12]
Oprah Winfrey
Both.
- [13:12]
Wally Lamb
Both.
- [13:13]
Audience Member 3
I know your time is very valuable to you, dear listeners, so I thank you for joining my conversation with the incredible Wally Lam. He's the Author of my 115th Oprah's Book Club selection, the river is Waiting.
- [13:27]
Oprah Winfrey
Coming up, our audience has some really.
- [13:28]
Audience Member 3
Thought provoking questions about justice, addiction, and forgiveness themes. Wally explores so tenderly and beautifully in the writing of this novel. Also, have you ever heard of a silent book club? I'd not heard of this. One of our audience members actually created this idea that has gone global. Stay with us.
- [13:50]
Oprah Winfrey
Say hello to the new iced horchata.
- [13:51]
Wally Lamb
Shaken espresso from Starbucks.
- [13:53]
Audience Member 4
This Handcrafted espresso drink with hints of.
- [13:56]
Oprah Winfrey
Cinnamon and vanilla is shaken with ice.
- [13:57]
Audience Member 4
And oat milk to create the perfect summer sip.
- [14:00]
Oprah Winfrey
Available for a limited time at Starbucks.
- [14:04]
Audience Member 3
Welcome back to Ubers Book Club, presented by Starbucks. I'm with an audience in Seattle talking with acclaimed author Wally Lamb about his new novel, the river is Waiting. This is the third time I've chosen one of Wally's brilliant novels for my book club. I so appreciate the way he writes and the stories he chooses to tell. Our audience read the book, and they have so many interesting questions that may be the same ones, some of the same ones, at least, that you have. So let's get back to it.
- [14:34]
Oprah Winfrey
We have a judge in our audience. Hello, Judge Galvan. And you're in the criminal justice system. And what do you want to say about this?
- [14:41]
Judge Galvan
Well, I do want to say that, for me, the themes that you explore in your novel are what I do every single day. And I think the trying to render judgment within the context of an analytical framework that I'm obligated to do and pass judgment, not pass judgment on somebody's humanity, are two very different things that I hold. But I did have a question for you. The concept of justice was what drew me to the novel throughout it? I tend to avoid these types of novels because of the work that I do daily.
- [15:11]
Wally Lamb
Sure.
- [15:12]
Judge Galvan
But I was fascinated by the context. But for me, I found it difficult. I kept asking myself, where's the river? What's the river? And so at the end, what I drew from it was, it's a metaphor for justice. It's constantly present, consistently flowing, and it cleanses the land and the people around it. And it was such a part of that mural, and. And it is a title. Was that your intent in calling it? That's a.
- [15:38]
Wally Lamb
That's. That's really sharp reading. It was. It was not my original intent.
- [15:44]
Oprah Winfrey
It's sharper than anything I came up with. I'm like. Usually I'm like, really? Is that what the river was? I thought the river was actually the river.
- [15:58]
Wally Lamb
Well, that, too.
- [15:59]
Oprah Winfrey
The river. No, where's the river? Where he put his hands in the water and the whole thing.
- [16:04]
Wally Lamb
Okay, yeah, but. But I. But that's a. That's a metaphor I sort of came up with as I was writing the novel. Yeah. Yeah.
- [16:14]
Oprah Winfrey
So did the river represent all that.
- [16:16]
Wally Lamb
To you toward the end?
- [16:18]
Oprah Winfrey
Yes, it did.
- [16:19]
Wally Lamb
Yeah. Yeah.
- [16:20]
Oprah Winfrey
Wow. Judge Galvan, good. But did you think, as a judge, should he have been in prison for that?
- [16:27]
Judge Galvan
I think punishment is a complex question. I think the ideas of retribution, which is kind of how our system is set up, is very complex. Do we want retribution or do we want to welcome people back into the community? And why would people want to come back into a community that doesn't allow them to get a job, to rent a house, to engage in society fully and fairly? And so those are very difficult questions. Is the punishment fair? Would it have been different if somebody else's child had died? And those are all, I think, questions that we wrestle with, certainly in my work. But I'm really happy that you wrote this because I hope that as people look at our system of justice and form opinions about what we do, that they think that context and nuance is extraordinarily important and so are facts.
- [17:10]
Wally Lamb
Oh, amen to that. Yeah, I agree. We have three sons and the youngest is our adopted son and he has gone to prison. And I remember standing in front of the judge when I was supporting him and I said, judge, your honor, I don't really think prison does a whole lot to rehabilitate people. And he said, yes, but it's also there to punish people too. So I think that balance that. Okay. You know, I tend to be, you know, like, oh, yeah, prison is bad because it doesn't rehabilitate. But it was, it was good to be reminded of that.
- [17:54]
Oprah Winfrey
It's also for punishment.
- [17:55]
Wally Lamb
Right.
- [17:56]
Oprah Winfrey
And what was your son being punished for?
- [17:58]
Wally Lamb
He was there for. He was, he was addicted to drugs and he was there for theft.
- [18:05]
Oprah Winfrey
Theft, yeah. So what made you have Corby have this drinking problem that he was hiding? What was, where did that come from?
- [18:16]
Wally Lamb
Some of that came autobiographically. I was a late bloomer to my problem with alcohol. I went from being an enthusiastic drinker to a problem drinker in my 50s. And so when he begins to work on his rehabilitation, you know, going to. He steps into a 12 step program and then keeps that up when he gets to prison. You know, I've been in those rooms. I've been in those rooms. And so, you know, I was able to wrestle my problem to the, to the ground to this point. But I know that, you know, in.
- [19:01]
Oprah Winfrey
It's an ongoing wrestling. Yeah, yeah. To the ground.
- [19:04]
Wally Lamb
Yeah. But they say, you know, while you're in the church basement, your addiction is doing push ups out in the parking lot. So, you know, you have to be on guard at all times.
- [19:15]
Oprah Winfrey
I'd never heard that before. That's interesting. While you're in the church basement, meaning for AA or whatever, your addiction's out there ready for you, waiting for you when you come out of the door.
- [19:25]
Wally Lamb
Yep.
- [19:26]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah. Corby's wife, Emily, is devastated by the loss of Nico and is left to raise Nico's twin sister, Macy, alone. And we feel Emily's grief profoundly. I mean, I understood it. Didn't you all? And here's what she tells their therapist, Dr. Patel, on page 106. Turning to Emily, Patel asks whether there's anything else she wants to say to me. She nods, turns and looks me in the eye. Her words are more measured now, more sad than angry. People lose jobs all the time without falling apart and causing everything else to fall apart around them, she says, without causing the death of one of their children. I just can't imagine how I'm ever going to be able to forgive you so that we can salvage what's left. And I'll be honest with you, Corby, I'm not sure I want to. I felt like I was in the room with them during that scene. How. How did that scene take shape in your mind?
- [20:21]
Wally Lamb
Well, I work in a writer's group and have been have for years, you know, worked with other writers and I was interested, when I was writing some of the first chapters before that scene was written, that some of the writers were not forgiving of Corby. They didn't like, you know, they didn't like the guy. They didn't think he should be forgiven. And so that's sort of her, you know, her reaction sort of came from them, you know, they were kind of educating me. And these were women in the group who were like, not, you know, didn't think that forgiveness was appropriate.
- [21:00]
Oprah Winfrey
What did you all think? Did you think forgiveness was appropriate? Answer.
- [21:06]
Audience Member 4
That's a really tough one. This actually leads to a question that I had for Wally. But, you know, telling the story from the perspective of the father versus the mother was really interesting to me. In fact, there's a quote in your book that. That really stood out to me. If you don't mind, I'll read it. It's all women visiting tonight. Wives, girlfriends, moms. I think women are just braver than men. They'll put up with the pain of seeing one of their own stuck inside this place out of love most men won't or can't. Instead, they make excuses. And that really struck me as, you know, what is the difference? What made you choose to tell this story from the perspective of a father versus the mother?
- [21:58]
Wally Lamb
Yeah, that's an interesting question for me because when I started this novel in first draft form, like, maybe I had About a third of it done. It wasn't just from his point of view. It was from his and Emily's point of view. And it teetered back and forth. One chapter his, one chapter, hers, and so forth. And then I started working with a really gifted editor and publisher, Mary Sue Rucci. And she was the one who said to me, you know, really, they're kind of fighting each other for point of view. She said, I think it should be just in his point of view, and you could get her from, you know, his perspective. And I remember at first I thought to myself, oh, yeah, sure, I'll just rewrite the whole damn thing. But of course, you know, the next day happened, and I'm like, damn, she's right. And so that's when, you know, his viewpoint took over the story. She gets a little bit at the end, but, yeah, it's primarily his story.
- [23:03]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah. But, you know, I think. I don't know what you all felt, but I felt more empathy for him. As the novel progressed, as we learned more about who he really was, I felt more empathy. But in the beginning, I was very judgmental.
- [23:18]
Wally Lamb
Yeah.
- [23:18]
Oprah Winfrey
I was like, if you hadn't have been drinking, this wouldn't have happened. And you deserved to go. To be punished.
- [23:25]
Wally Lamb
Yeah. And I thought that, too. I wasn't sure. And ultimately, I think I challenged the readers to decide where they land on this. You know, is it. Is it unforgivable what he's done? Despite the fact that, you know, he had a tough childhood, that, you know, that his mother, you know, smoked weed and his father was, you know, kind of unrelentingly, you know, you can't get.
- [23:52]
Oprah Winfrey
Away with hiding the drinks.
- [23:54]
Wally Lamb
Right.
- [23:54]
Oprah Winfrey
You can't. You're not going to get away with it. Eventually, something bad is going to happen.
- [23:58]
Wally Lamb
Yeah.
- [23:59]
Oprah Winfrey
So what would have pulled him up? I mean, what would have turned him around?
- [24:06]
Wally Lamb
Well, you know, because I understand addiction, you know, from the inside.
- [24:11]
Oprah Winfrey
Yes.
- [24:11]
Wally Lamb
You know, particularly alcohol addiction. It's not that easy to say, okay, this is bad for me, it's bad for my family. I'm just going to stop. You know, can't do that. You know, you got to really work at it, and you gotta. You gotta out yourself to other people and say, I need help.
- [24:33]
Oprah Winfrey
I hear you started a project called the Silent Book Club. Is it?
- [24:36]
Audience Member 2
That's what's called.
- [24:37]
Oprah Winfrey
It's true. Yeah. What is that?
- [24:39]
Audience Member 4
So the Silent Book Club, it's a global community of readers. We have almost 2,000 local chapters around the world, 55 countries.
- [24:46]
Oprah Winfrey
Wow.
- [24:47]
Audience Member 4
And groups of People come together, they bring whatever it is they're reading. They meet in public places like cafes.
- [24:54]
Oprah Winfrey
Like a Starbucks.
- [24:55]
Audience Member 4
Like a Starbucks, Yes. Public library, independent bookstores. And they chat about books, they swap books, and then they read quietly for one hour.
- [25:04]
Wally Lamb
Wow, that's cool.
- [25:06]
Oprah Winfrey
Oh, that's like my house.
- [25:07]
Audience Member 4
Yeah. But it gives, you know, it gives people an opportunity to actually get out of the house and to connect with other people who have a shared passion for books. And it really brings people together in a way that. That I think that, you know, we're really seeking now. You know, I mean, I think so many people are stuck to their phones, their screens.
- [25:30]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah.
- [25:30]
Audience Member 4
Social media has actually disconnected us from each other. And so, yeah, the really. The goal of silent book club is to bring people together in person.
- [25:39]
Oprah Winfrey
So you come and you come with whatever book you're reading. Yep. There's not a byob.
- [25:43]
Audience Member 4
Bring your own book.
- [25:44]
Oprah Winfrey
Bring your own book. And there's not a designated book for the month.
- [25:47]
Audience Member 4
There is no assigned reading yet. We say we. There's no homework for silent book club.
- [25:52]
Oprah Winfrey
And you're just chatting. Yeah.
- [25:54]
Audience Member 4
So, I mean, one of the things that I love about it is it's a great place to pick up book recommendations. So much the way that you and your friend Alice started your book club. So this started with just me and my friend Laura. And every time we met up, we would have a book with us. We would share what we were reading. And, you know, and it actually was a book club assignment that, you know, we hadn't finished the book in time and we were worried about, you know, and I said, God, I wish we could just have a book club where we could get together and actually just read the book. But I love it because I always get recommendations of what everyone else is reading. It's like a human algorithm.
- [26:26]
Oprah Winfrey
If I wanted to join, where would I go to silent book club.
- [26:28]
Audience Member 4
So we have a map on our website, Silentbook Club, and there are chapters on every continent except Antarctica. So if you're watching from Antarctica today, please give us a call.
- [26:39]
Oprah Winfrey
Okay. Yeah, they could use some books in Antarctica. Yeah.
- [26:44]
Wally Lamb
And some heat.
- [26:45]
Oprah Winfrey
And some heat. Hello, listener.
- [26:47]
Audience Member 3
I hope you stay tuned because coming up next, we're joined by two mothers who have experienced a similar loss to the tragedy in the river is Waiting. One of the moms, Teresa, appeared on the Oprah show 25 years ago. And when I was reading Wally's story, I kept thinking of her. It's a story that has stayed with me all these years. Teresa and her family are here in our audience and I think what they have to say about judgment and healing and living for today is so profound and it's a lesson for all of us. Talk to you after the break.
- [27:21]
Audience Member 4
Listen in.
- [27:31]
Oprah Winfrey
Starbucks. It's a great day for coffee.
- [27:35]
Audience Member 3
Welcome back, listeners. I'm grateful that you're here for this episode of Oprah's Book Club presented by Starbucks. I'm talking to best selling author Wally Lamb about his new book, the River Is Waiting For. It's the fictional story of Corby, a troubled young father who causes a tragedy that tears his family apart. During our conversation, we're joined by real life parents whose children accidentally died under their care. They are here to share their powerful messages of healing and how to continue to live on after such a tragedy.
- [28:07]
Oprah Winfrey
Well, you know, as I was reading this book, it brought up so many memories of all the real life stories. I remember when I called you, I told you, I remember this grandmother who had backed up in her driveway and killed her grandson and she said I will never get over it, so there's no need to even talk to me about it. Well, there are so many real life moms and dads that I met on the OPRAH show who had accidentally killed their children. Those stories still haunt me. And I have to say that my intention behind sharing those stories then and today was to find deeper meaning in the tragedy and to offer that wisdom to you, the viewers, the audience. And I've never forgotten Theresa Burch's story. So let's take a look. Theresa Burch knows firsthand what it is like to feel responsible for your own child's death. She is sharing her story and the lessons she learned there in hopes of healing other mothers who are burdened with the same guilt.
- [29:08]
Audience Member 1
We had six little children. The oldest was seven.
- [29:14]
Oprah Winfrey
After a family vacation, Teresa was driving her children home to be with her husband, Richard. After several hours on the road, the lines on the highway seemed monotonous.
- [29:24]
Audience Member 1
All the kids had fallen asleep in the car except for Ryan. I knew I was getting tired, but I didn't know it was getting that bad.
- [29:32]
Oprah Winfrey
Fighting sleep. Teresa planned to stop at the next area to take a break. The cruise control was on. All she had to do was steer, keep her eyes on the road and drive a few more minutes. But in the blink of an eye, they were plunging toward disaster.
- [29:47]
Audience Member 1
I dozed off at the wheel. I fell asleep as soon as the wheels left the road. Woke with a start and thought, gotta get the car stopped. Things were so fast they hit the.
- [29:59]
Oprah Winfrey
Guardrail, then catapulted into the air and headed down a ravine with her six children strapped in their seats.
- [30:06]
Audience Member 1
We flew through the air, and as we were flying, I saw water. And I was unlocking the doors and undoing my seatbelt so we could get in and get the kids. And as soon as we hit the water, instantly the water and the current and all that pressure, the windshield broke. It was so disorienting and so fast and powerful. The water actually pushed me through that into the back seat. Our son Matthew, who had just turned 2, was in his car seat. And he reached out and grabbed my arm, unbuckled his car seat and got him out. And then I couldn't get the door open. And I thought in my mind, richard's going to lose his whole family. I thought he was going to lose everyone. I was able finally to get the door open against the current, which I think in itself was a miracle, and was able to get out with Matthew. And I was just screaming, There are five more babies in the car. There's five more babies.
- [31:02]
Oprah Winfrey
After watching an excruciating 20 minutes of frantic work, rescuers reached the two oldest children, Ryan and Julie.
- [31:09]
Audience Member 1
And they weren't immediately conscious, but you could see they were alive. It was like getting too back that I was sure were dead.
- [31:17]
Oprah Winfrey
But three other children died.
- [31:19]
Audience Member 1
I can remember looking up at where my car had come from, saying, I've killed my children.
- [31:26]
Oprah Winfrey
At the hospital, the phone call was placed to Theresa's husband, and I had.
- [31:31]
Audience Member 1
To tell him that his beautiful little Katie with her blue eyes and blonde hair was gone. And Jonathan with his big brown eyes was gone. And Jacob, our little baby, was gone. All Richard said was, are you okay? My husband kept telling me, there's nothing to be forgiven for. It's just an accident.
- [31:54]
Oprah Winfrey
If I had placed judgment at all.
- [31:58]
Wally Lamb
I think it would have just destroyed her.
- [32:01]
Audience Member 1
I think that a huge part of my healing was being able to accept my own humanness, that I'm prone to mistakes just like every other person that walks on the earth. We had a wonderful friend speak at our children's funeral. He said, you could kill yourself if you kept asking, what if? He said, instead, you have to ask, so now what? And we did. When time passed and I started to forget, that was another point of guilt. Dear Katie, I remember so well the way you did.
- [32:33]
Oprah Winfrey
A friend gave them a family journal so they could write down memories of Jonathan, Katie and Jacob.
- [32:38]
Audience Member 1
Weren't we having a good time?
- [32:40]
Oprah Winfrey
Do you remember?
- [32:41]
Audience Member 1
It was very therapeutic and very healing. It's not that we forget them or that they're any less part of our family, but just that we can go on and to have new experiences and that those can be good.
- [32:57]
Oprah Winfrey
Wow. Teresa and her daughter Julie are here along with Richard. Julie is one of the children who survived that accident. It's nice to see you all again. Thank you for being here. It's been 34 years since that happened and 25 years since you were on the Oprah Show. Thank you for agreeing to be here to talk to us today and to show us that healing can occur and that you can. You can go on. How are you?
- [33:24]
Audience Member 1
Well, that was rough to watch.
- [33:26]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah, I can imagine.
- [33:28]
Audience Member 1
But on a daily basis, I would say I'm. I'm joyful. We have a happy life. And I think I. I think part of that, that I mentioned about accepting my own humanness has made it so I have no right to judge anyone else for anything, no matter what I see. It's like we're all human and we all have so many frailties.
- [34:00]
Oprah Winfrey
I heard that it took you two years for you to realize that you didn't need to forgive yourself. But what did you decide you needed to do more?
- [34:10]
Audience Member 1
That I needed to accept.
- [34:13]
Oprah Winfrey
Who I.
- [34:13]
Audience Member 1
Am, accept that people have. Things go wrong all the time. And a lot of times we get away with it. And it was not the case in this situation. And the fact that those three beauties are gone is so hard. But I also had to look forward. Our faith. Our faith has us hope for families being together forever. And our faith. There's a quote in our faith that says men are. That they might have joy. And that kept going through my mind. And I kept thinking, I'm not feeling joy right now. I'm feeling absolute devastation and crushing agony. And yet I could not accept that that joy was just for some future life that was out of my reach, that there had to be a way to find joy. And we kept. Kept believing, kept loving, and we have found joy.
- [35:10]
Oprah Winfrey
And you had more children. We did.
- [35:13]
Audience Member 1
We had three more children.
- [35:15]
Oprah Winfrey
You did. Julie, I heard that you were around six years old when this happened. Right. And you've only recently discovered how the trauma of that day has lived inside you. What have you discovered?
- [35:30]
Julie Burch
Yeah, that. That the body keeps the score, as they say. That is proven true in my life as an adult. Just a few years ago, I decided to do some therapy for reasons unrelated to this, I thought. But through that, through some, like, some NeuroFeedback and some EMDR, like, connections were made. I was able to see connections how this traumatic Experience as a child is affecting how my brain is processing life now. Even, like, to the point, like, I'm a light sleeper and I'm always on high alert and, you know, like, feeling danger when my eyes are closed. I mean, not consciously feeling danger, but that stemmed from this experience or because.
- [36:13]
Oprah Winfrey
You didn't consciously remember the accident.
- [36:16]
Julie Burch
I remember the accident, but I hadn't processed the trauma. Yeah. And I thought because we have our faith, because we. We talk about the kids, like, it's not something that we break down and cry about every time we speak, like it's part of our experience.
- [36:30]
Oprah Winfrey
Yes. And you all grew up talking about Jonathan and Katie and Jacob in the family. They still were considered a part of the family, even though they were gone.
- [36:41]
Julie Burch
Absolutely.
- [36:41]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah.
- [36:42]
Julie Burch
Yeah. And I thought that meant, like, we're good, we're handling it. It's handled. And then as an adult, to make these connections of, like, questioning myself and, like, self doubt and did I do that right? And through, like, almost to a. To a fault, to an ex, to an excess, and then to make this connection during one EMDR session that. That was stemming back to subconsciously this experience in the car. Like, I'm six years old. I'm above the water. I'm not dying, and my siblings are under the water, and should I have helped them? This was not a conscious question that I had ever asked myself or that anyone around me had ever tried to make me feel bad about, but my body had held onto this.
- [37:22]
Oprah Winfrey
That's right. That's right.
- [37:24]
Julie Burch
This question.
- [37:24]
Oprah Winfrey
Because the body does keep this score.
- [37:26]
Julie Burch
It does.
- [37:26]
Oprah Winfrey
I thought it was so striking in that piece, Richard, that you said if you had judged her, that would have been the end, that there was no judgment. You know, this is the kind of thing I did 4561 Oprah shows and did so many stories about tragic things that had happened. And in many, many, many, many cases, actually, most of them where there's been a tragedy like this, people end up breaking up, they split up. The families fall apart. They end up like Emily in the novel. So why was there. You never had any judgment, I guess.
- [38:03]
Wally Lamb
Theresa was my best friend and my sweetheart.
- [38:06]
Oprah Winfrey
Mm. And I. I knew it was something that obviously would not happen on purpose. Yeah.
- [38:17]
Wally Lamb
And I didn't have the right to.
- [38:20]
Oprah Winfrey
Choose or to judge, but to support. And, you know, those children are still part of our lives like they were. And as Julie was saying, and we.
- [38:33]
Wally Lamb
Learn from our experiences, and so don't judge, but live for each day and choose what you can choose to face.
- [38:47]
Oprah Winfrey
Every challenge the best way you can. Wow, that is amazing. That is amazing. Well, we're happy that you were able to move on and have, and have a life that brought you joy. And I hear you're going to now have your 24th grandchild. Wow. Your 24th grandchild. Pretty amazing. Well, Shazik is here and she's here to share the story of her three year old son, Yori, seven years ago when he drowned in a backyard swimming pool. Tell us what happened that day.
- [39:31]
Audience Member 2
It was kind of a day like any other, honestly, and we were going on kind of a play date with some preschool friends and everything just happened so quickly. I have four boys, I had four boys in five and a half years. So we're all, we get there, jump in the pool. And Yori was playing on the stairs. I was with my one year old on the side. There were four adults and seven children between us. There were some adults in the pool and Yori at some point was face down in the water. It was just a matter of not watching. It was very quick, very quiet.
- [40:10]
Oprah Winfrey
And I think that's an important point. It was very quick, but it was also very quiet because everybody always thinks there's going to be a big loud noise or you're going to hear it, you're going to have the thing. And it was very quiet.
- [40:23]
Audience Member 2
It's very quiet face down in the pool. And the paramedics arrived and they got him to the hospital. And you know, you do everything you can but talk about powerless as a parent. And at some point the doctors, you know, said he's, he's gone and he was able to at least donate his organs. But leaving that hospital, I felt so much of Emily's just the struggle. Right. Of leaving without a child.
- [41:01]
Oprah Winfrey
And you, because I saw your TED Talk, were faced with the guilt of it all. You judged yourself for looking away.
- [41:09]
Audience Member 2
Well, for sure. I, I had a life jacket there and I said, hey, I have a life jacket. But he's on the stairs. There's adults there. I'm not thinking to put a life jacket on. If I would have put a life jacket on, my son would still be here. And so, yeah, it's something you think about daily.
- [41:28]
Oprah Winfrey
And you, and you had confidence, like seven kids and four adults and some adults in the pool, you would have confidence that your child is being watched the whole time.
- [41:37]
Audience Member 2
Yeah, that's what happens with water and drownings that happen all the time. Right. You think someone else is watching?
- [41:42]
Oprah Winfrey
Yes. And as you said in your TED Talk, I didn't realize this. Children between what age and what age, that's the number one cause of death.
- [41:50]
Audience Member 2
Yeah. So children one to four, it's the number one reason they die. Actually, it's the number two reason. I mean, I could go on and on with all of the statistics, but it's just something that happens so often. But when you lose children in a way like this, it's not something you go out talking about. You don't want to say, hey, my kid drowned. Don't let your child drown. But that's something that I have done because I don't want it to happen to other families and people because it happens more than, you know, even those safe call, like those close calls that we've all had, you don't talk about it or think about that.
- [42:26]
Oprah Winfrey
You know, I did not know that it was the number one cause of Death for Children 1 to 4. Did you all know that?
- [42:32]
Wally Lamb
That.
- [42:33]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah. Yeah. And it's just because for a split second, you look away and that's all it takes.
- [42:39]
Audience Member 2
Yeah. Well, bathtubs, toilets, we can go on and on.
- [42:44]
Oprah Winfrey
And so you've become a vocal advocate for water safety. Tell us what that means.
- [42:49]
Audience Member 2
So I founded an organization called no More under and simultaneously made a film called Drowning in Silence. Kind of just sharing my story, other family stories. And with no More under in particular, we do advocacy work and also just make sure that children have access to water. Black and brown families, in particular, because of racism, often don't know how to swim and don't have the access. And so we get free swim lessons.
- [43:18]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah. I heard in your TED talk, 67% of Black people don't know how to swim. And that's based on all the generations who weren't even allowed in a public swimming pool for years because of segregation.
- [43:31]
Audience Member 2
That's right.
- [43:32]
Oprah Winfrey
So it's a cultural thing. You come up not being around swimming pools. Swimming is not a part of your culture. And here we are. Yeah. Yeah.
- [43:41]
Audience Member 2
So it's just been, like I said, it's a way to keep Yuri in the world. Like, we say his name. He's helping so many children. We've had thousands of children go through our swim lessons. And I just know his life is making a difference.
- [43:57]
Oprah Winfrey
And his organs. I heard that his organs went to that his heart is in a little girl. Yeah. How does that make you feel?
- [44:09]
Audience Member 2
On his birthday this year, I was driving and I saw, you know, the Northwest Life, the place where we donated his organ. And I just know that I'm supposed to reach out, you know, to Them, but the family's in Portland. We've communicated, but we just haven't met. I think I'm nervous to meet someone that has a piece of him. But it will happen when it's supposed to.
- [44:31]
Oprah Winfrey
Will happen. Will happen. You read the River Is Wading. Were you able to get through it without breaking down?
- [44:39]
Audience Member 2
It was tough. Yeah, it was tough. I just, I related on both sides a little bit, you know. Yeah. Just the realness that you brought to those characters. It was the things that I was thinking so often and I know we're not ruining it, but that end, the ending for me because again, you just, you want your child to live on in any way. And so. Yeah. Thank you.
- [45:09]
Wally Lamb
Thank you for getting through it.
- [45:12]
Oprah Winfrey
Thank you, Shazik, for being here with us and sharing your story. So on page 365, you write, can a man who caused the death of his children atone enough to be forgiven? Is absolution ever possible? What do you think?
- [45:32]
Wally Lamb
I think it is possible. But I did understand Emily's refusal to forgive and also her refusal to bring their surviving daughter to the prison so that he could save. So that, you know, that's partly, I think, her anger, but also, I think.
- [45:58]
Oprah Winfrey
If he hadn't been drinking, she would. It would have been an easier thing. It was just an accident.
- [46:02]
Wally Lamb
Definitely she.
- [46:03]
Oprah Winfrey
Don't you all think so?
- [46:04]
Wally Lamb
Yeah.
- [46:04]
Oprah Winfrey
If it was just an accident. Because you all, because you all feel that way, too. If it was just an accident, you could say, absolutely. Find it in your heart to do that. But the drinking also felt like a betrayal.
- [46:17]
Wally Lamb
Yes.
- [46:17]
Oprah Winfrey
Like, and also the lying about looking for the job. And you weren't really looking for the job. So he turns out not to be the person I thought you were.
- [46:25]
Wally Lamb
Right.
- [46:25]
Oprah Winfrey
That's what that is, right? Yeah.
- [46:27]
Wally Lamb
Yeah, that's right.
- [46:28]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah. Wally Lem, thank you so much. Thank you for this book and all the incredible books you've given us over the years.
- [46:34]
Wally Lamb
Thank you.
- [46:35]
Oprah Winfrey
It's a soul stirring novel and thank you all for your insightful questions and for reading the book. The River's Waiting is available now, wherever books are sold. And before we go, I want to share. I recently published this little. It's called the Book Lovers Journal and it's for people who love to read as much as I do. It's a great gift for the reader in your life. Oprah's Book Lovers Journal is available anywhere you buy books and you're all going to go home with a copy. And I want to give a double shot of gratitude to our phenomenal partners at Starbucks for supporting our community of book lovers. No need to read alone. Head to your neighborhood Starbucks Cafe. Bring your book, have good coffee and good company. Thank you so much, everybody. Go well.