Hour 2: Tim Johnson, Author

Summary

The Paul Finebaum Show – Hour 2: Tim Johnson, Author

Date: July 31, 2026

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Episode Overview

This hour of The Paul Finebaum Show is packed with lively college football debate and poignant historical storytelling. Paul fields calls from a passionate SEC and Big Ten fanbase—covering Tennessee’s make-or-break year, the SEC/Big Ten rivalry, coaching legacies, and Alabama’s future—before welcoming historian Dr. Timothy Johnson. Johnson dives into his deeply researched biography, Robert Neyland: The West Point Engineer Who Built Tennessee Football, offering rich insights into Neyland’s extraordinary dual legacy as both a football coach and a military leader.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tennessee Football: Is This a Make-or-Break Season for Josh Heupel?

[00:59–02:35]

• Caller Nathan (UTK Alum): “I think this is a make or break year for [Josh] Heupel. I think 6-6 and 7-5 is an absolute failure… I was just curious what you think about that since we’re at year six now.” (01:05)
• Paul’s Response: “That number is probably eight [wins]. I think if you go below that… He has to win one of those three games minimum: LSU, Texas, or Alabama at home.” (01:27)
• Notable Quote: “It can slip away quickly if you’re not careful. But I think he’s got enough to hold on and maybe, you know, set it up for next year with a little more veteran quarterback.” —Paul (02:35)
• Vibe: Reflective but urgent—Tennessee’s expectations are high, and the SEC schedule daunting.

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2. Caller Perspectives and College Football Curiosities

Sparks in Alabama: Comic relief with a winding commentary on clock management, Indiana’s coach, SEC nostalgia, and unpredictability—“He [Indiana’s coach] should be a porn star. The little lovelace of college football.” (03:05)

Scissorhands in OKC & Swamp Dog:

• Swamp Dog praises ESPN’s Laura Rutledge but critiques her remarks as fuel for the Big Ten narrative.
• Paul on SEC Defenses: “Every time… if you have to go back, you’re not making a convincing argument. It’s about today… The Cowboys haven’t won anything since ‘95, they’re still the most talked about franchise. That doesn’t make them the best though.” (07:51–08:35)

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3. SEC vs. Big Ten Rivalry – Who’s Really on Top?

[09:14–17:27]

• Jimmy from Shreveport: Highlights coaching trees, questions why Signetti wasn’t picked up by SEC teams, and makes a case for both leagues’ histories.
• Tim from Texas: “Nobody’s lining up to play Purdue, Northwestern, Illinois… Everybody seems to be lining up to try to play Texas, OU, Tennessee, or Texas A&M…” (11:43–12:25)
• Darren from Orlando (Big Ten/OH State Fan): Laments “SEC-only” culture and believes no SEC team can win it all this year. “We play tough nose football in the Big Ten and you can ask Nico with his cracked helmet…” (13:58–15:12)
• Paul: Names Texas and Georgia as SEC contenders, questions depth beyond those programs.

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4. Big Ten Ascendancy & SEC Pushback

[16:28–17:16]

• Parker (Florida): “The Big Ten is the little brother that finally got the first place trophy and was able to take it home and show it to mom… 3 and 13 is what I’ll leave you with.”
• Paul: Dryly thanks Parker for the stat, signaling skepticism toward Big Ten dominance.

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5. Robert Neyland and Tennessee Football's Golden Age — Interview with Dr. Timothy Johnson

[19:52–33:56]

Background & Book Genesis

• Paul introduces Dr. Timothy Johnson, historian and author of Robert Neyland: The West Point Engineer Who Built Tennessee Football.
• Johnson: “I’ve been kind of wall to wall Robert Nealon for the last few years. I wanted to finish this book… for the 100th anniversary of Neyland’s first year as coach at UT.” (20:38)

Neyland’s Dual Legacy: Coach & General

• On Neyland’s Hidden Side:
  “He turned down pro contract offers from Major League Baseball teams because he wanted to be an engineer in the Army… His most impressive portion… was what he did in the Second World War in China and India… he had two careers simultaneously… he excelled at both.” —Johnson (21:46)
• Before World War II:
  “That 38, 39, and 40 team was… undefeated all three years in the regular season. The 1939 team… wasn’t even scored on all year… The Neyland football train… only world affairs could derail it.” (24:06)

World War II Service — Hidden History

• Johnson:
  “He was involved in the supply chain, funneling supplies to China… Neyland is first sent to Kunming, China, distributing supplies mostly to the Chinese forces…” (26:42) “He made Calcutta the most prolific military supply base in the world, literally in 1945. No mention of it in the [WWII] documentary, but… so much of this goes unnoticed… because he was not a combat commander… but Neyland was a logistics and supply guy and his work was extremely important.” (27:53)
• Paul: “You don’t think about [this side of Neyland] when you’re thumbing through your history book in the seventh grade.” (27:41)

Post-War Return & Later Years

• On Coming Back:
  “He was anxious to get back to coaching. He had two down years… Now you know, the fans begin to question… Neyland just proved them all wrong by winning back to back national championships in 1950 and 1951.” (29:42–30:36)
• Why Neyland Retired:
  “His health was suffering… he had contracted hepatitis in China… and it went undiagnosed. His health began to decline by 1950, 51… Still, he was winning championships.” (31:25)
• After Neyland:
  “It’s never good to follow a legend and, you know, too many people have found that out too late… it was tough to walk in his footsteps for sure.” (33:15)
• Book Signings:
  “If people are interested they can go to timdjohnson.com and see where I’m going to be.” —Johnson (33:32)
• Paul’s Endorsement:
  “I just can’t tell you how great it is and how the historical perspective is just so valuable.” (33:56)

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6. Final Callers & The SEC/Big Ten Debate Continues

Sadler (Madison, WI): “The SEC and the Big Ten, they’re going to be going at each other… it’s non stop.” (34:42)

Andrew (Dallas): Probes why Big Ten doesn’t schedule more SEC teams; jabs at Texas QB.
Paul: Suggests Nebraska is close to turning it around... “That’s about the 17th year in a row I’ve said that.” (36:20)

Victor (San Antonio): Pokes holes in Big Ten's run, credits recent championships to “miracle seasons.”

• “Michigan with cheating Jim Harbaugh… They cheated their way… got lucky beating Alabama… miracles are about to run out, and I think the SEC will be back on top very soon.” (36:59)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Josh Heupel’s Tennessee:

“It can slip away quickly if you’re not careful. But I think he’s got enough to hold on…” —Paul Finebaum (02:35)

On the SEC's Present vs. Past:

“If you have to go back, you’re not making a convincing argument. It’s about today.” —Paul Finebaum (07:51)

Dr. Johnson on Neyland:

“He had two careers simultaneously… and he went back and forth between the Army and the gridiron and back to the army, and he transitioned seamlessly. And here’s the thing, he excelled at both. Neyland was not mediocre at anything that he did in his life.” —Dr. Timothy Johnson (21:46)

Big Ten’s “First Place Trophy”

“[It’s] pretty much equivalent to the little brother that finally got the first place trophy and was able to take it home and show it to mom…” —Parker in Florida (16:28)

On Following a Legend:

“It’s never good to follow a legend and, and you know, too many people have found that out too late.” —Dr. Timothy Johnson (33:15)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:05 – Tennessee’s Heupel “make or break” season debate
• 07:50 – Laura Rutledge segment sparks SEC/Big Ten conversation
• 13:58 – Big Ten fan Darren weighs in, sparks cross-conference debate
• 19:52 – Dr. Timothy Johnson interview begins
• 21:46 – Neyland’s dual careers profiled
• 27:53 – Neyland’s role in WWII supply chain
• 30:36 – Neyland’s late career and health issues
• 33:15 – Why it’s tough following a college football legend
• 36:59 – Victor on “miracle seasons” and SEC resurgence

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Tone & Style

• Paul Finebaum: Reflective, probing, wryly humorous, encouraging deeper perspective.
• Dr. Timothy Johnson: Scholarly, direct, lively with little-known historical detail, passionate about his subject.
• Callers: Engaging mix of banter, nostalgia, rivalry, stats, and strong opinions—sometimes tongue in cheek, often deeply invested.

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In Summary

Hour 2 artfully blends the usual fireworks of SEC-vs-Big Ten smack talk with a moving portrait of Robert Neyland—legendary football coach and unsung military leader. The calls and commentary showcase the cultural intensity and historical depth that make college football so impactful. Dr. Timothy Johnson’s interview is the hour’s centerpiece, offering a trove of new insights for both football and history fans.

For more: Dr. Timothy Johnson’s Robert Neyland: The West Point Engineer Who Built Tennessee Football is available now. Signing events and info at timdjohnson.com.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[B]

availability various 18 the pride, passion and pageantry of college football lives here. This is the Paul Feinbaum Show. Our two podcasts. This might be college football. We are back.

[A]

A number of guests will be dropping by.

[B]

We already have a few here.

[A]

We're talking to you right now and we'll check in with Nathan in Nashville. Hello, Nathan.

[B]

Hey, what's up? Paul Motown, fan of the show. Thanks for having me.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Just curious your opinion. We're both alumni of, you know, University of Tennessee, Knoxville. In my opinion, I think this is a make or break year for hypo. I think 6 and 6 and 7 and 5 is an absolute failure despite the portalist or quarterback and things of that nature. I was just curious what you think about that since we're at year six now and I'm expecting for a better but I just don't see it with the schedule. Just curious about your thoughts about that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, Nathan, I think if, I think if he can stay over a certain number, nobody's going to be wondering about his future. That number is probably eight. I think if you go below that and people are going to go, come on. We grant you the Nico Aguilar transition. That was last year, but it is now and you got two stud quarterbacks. You better make something happen. That schedule to me, I like having Texas and Alabama at home. I think that gives lsu. I mean those are three of the toughest teams in the country. But what does he do on the road? Can he get by Georgia Tech? I think he can. Can he deal with South Carolina A and M? I mean, there's just landmines across the board and I think he's going to have to beat lsu, Texas or Alabama at home. There's no getting around. He has to win one of those three games minimum.

[B]

Yep. Must win, put up or shot up in my opinion. Hopefully it works out good.

[A]

Might have to win too, because I don't see him winning at A and M. Frankly, I don't see him being Texas. So it's going to come down to Alabama and lsu. Thanks for the call. Appreciate it. Talked to Hypo last week. He seems pretty confident. I think he's got a lot going for him up there but it can, it can slip away quickly if you're not careful. I think he's got enough to to hold on and maybe you know set it up for next year with a little more veteran quarterback. Sparks is up next. Good afternoon Sparks.

[B]

Hey Paul, thank you. Take my call. Mike will call where I go but it's a little bit more than just rude wall evil and what's that Indiana's coast name. What's your name? Spaghetti. Right. Oh I thought it's like skin Daddy. It's like a porn star. He should be a porn star. The little love lace of college football. Kurt Spaghetti Skin Daddy. Hey, I know Paul, I double tie but a lot of the reason they couldn't run balls he would let that play clock run down to one or two seconds and you know defense would knew that the offense supposed to know have a little bit of a because they were snap jump but they, they were looking at the clock got down two man get ready to go but and I kept playing flying under the radar. Yeah, I like that. And the worst loss before Indiana. Paul, you remember September 14, 1970, I mean 1991, 35 nothing golf just in swamp changed quarterbacks 128 in a row. Maybe that's what happened this time. Yeah but I, I think y' all say devoid doing a whole lot to forward or whatever. He said he's satisfied what he's got and I think they're going to surprise a lot of people may win them all. I'm an optimist but that's what I think, bro.

[A]

Sparks, thank you for the call. Tim is up next in Arkansas. Hey Tim.

[B]

Well, hey Paul. Give me a second. That Sparks just got me off on out of whack here. But you had a caller earlier that said his name was George, he was novel and I've got to give a shout out to him because I was so curious about how Arkansas was going to do this year and now because him I know he's an Auburn fan so you know he really knows what's going on. So that takes a load off my mind, you know and I really like Auburn people. I talked to an Auburn graduate just last week. I was in a drive through and he asked me if I wanted my order supersized and I just said no, you know. So it was good, good to talk

[A]

to you Tim, thank you very much for the call. Appreciate it. Scissorhands and OKC is up next.

[B]

Paul, what's up, buddy? Man, it's getting close to that time, baby. You hear me?

[A]

How can I not? Yes, sir, I hear you. I don't know if he heard us. We'll try. We'll try. Scissorhands, back a minute. For some reason, he is not hearing us. Swap Dog is up next. Hey, Swamp Dog.

[B]

Good afternoon, Paul. Yeah, Old Scissorhands, He's a character now, and you got to get him back in there. But, hey, I want to talk to you about one. One of my favorite people on the. In the sports world, nest, Laura Rutledge. I love Laura Ruffles. He's one of the best in the business at everything that she does. And I. I've seen her for years now, but she did say something the other day to open the door for the Big Ten and for Nettie to say what he said. I get her point about the sec, how hard it is to win in the sec. I just think her choice of words was a little bit, maybe not the open door for them to jump on that. That's all. It was nothing. Nothing against her. She was just.

[A]

Let me get to the. Let me get to it. Listen, nobody needs to proclaim their love for Laura. We all feel the same way. Her work, what she did, though, in that conversation, played into the narrative that the Big Ten was ready to pounce on, and it just happened to be.

[B]

That's what I was saying.

[A]

The worst. The worst possible time. And it's just one more thing. Yeah. And again, you and I have been on the same side of this for a long time, but you just have to be real. And the best way to end this conversation is to quit defending it and just let it go.

[B]

Yeah, I agree with that, Paul. You're right about that. And like I say, I don't hold it up against her. She just said what she thought at the moment, you know, on television with maclean and all that. But, you know, nothing against her, but it did open the door for the big kid to jump all over that, and they did nothing against her. Again, I can say I love her.

[A]

Again, we've established that. Nothing. It's not personal, but that doesn't matter. This is. None of this is personal, Swamp Dog. But every time, you know, so, like the last caller. And I said, well, why is the SEC the best today? If you have to go back, you're not making a convincing argument. It's about today. And I was on the show this morning, and they were talking about 30 years and 20. But in my point, I Don't know if they agreed with my point or not. My point about the Cowboys though. They haven't won anything since 95, they're still the most talked about franchise. That doesn't make them the best though. And I agree. It drives me crazy.

[B]

Hey, can I get you to do me a favor? You got Chris Dorian coming up at five o', clock, man, right this story, right? Would you tell Chris, would you tell Chris that Swamp Dog says howdy? He knows who I am. I call his show too.

[A]

Okay, well, I'll do that immediately, Swamp Dog. I'll make sure that that's the very first thing I say to Dorian. Thanks for the call. Appreciate it. We got guests coming up in a few minutes. More of your phone calls next. 855-242-7285. A busy Friday afternoon.

[B]

You're listening to the Paul Feinbaum show podcast.

[A]

We are back. We appreciate you being here and let me check in with Jimmy in Shreveport. Hey, Jimmy.

[B]

How you doing there, Paul?

[A]

Hey there.

[B]

Thanks. Thanks for taking my call. Talking coaches, you know, I reminded you last time. So you cut me short when I told you how there's gonna beat Alabama and I was really impressed with you admitting that you were wrong in that it was, you know, I told you that they, you know, they had basically substandard players versus them. But the coaching, they're just, there's no holes, but anyway open. They just always did their job. Everybody did it well. But anyway, you know, great coaches always hone good coaches skills in conferences and always have great coaches come up beneath them. You preach is that Sabian 100%. But. And the SEC is just so unproven right now. And it's just like you say, they've got so many green coaches out there. They're just, everybody's learning their mark and trying to make one. And I'm just curious, why didn't any SCTC team go after Signetti? You know, why didn't Arkansas and some of those other teams. I mean I was, I've been watching him for over two years and I mean, last year wasn't the first year I was watching. I was calling my cousins in Indiana. Are you watching your team? I've got three of them watching them. That wasn't even Indiana football fans. But you know, I just don't understand how come they didn't go after him. None of them did. But anyway, I think it's really cool, you know, when you, when you compare the SEC to the Big ten and you know, she was dead wrong when that lady Called in and said that, you know, you take everything from basketball to shoot gymnastics. I mean, they dominate in a lot of areas, but the Big Ten does. But they, you know, it's. They're both great conferences, I think, and with, with extremely great histories and they're in their championships and it always swings. But anyway, I just wanted to point out those few things and tell you I appreciate you.

[A]

Thank you very much, Jimmy. You be well. You take care of yourselves. Tim is up next in Texas. Hello, Tim.

[B]

Hey, Paul. I just wanted to hop in on this sec, Big Ten deal and make a point outside of actually what's happened in the last three years, and that is that nobody's lining up to play Purdue, Northwestern, Illinois, Iowa, Maryland, Rutgers to try to strengthen their out of conference schedules. And everybody seems to be lining up to try to play Texas, ou, Tennessee or Texas A and M to try to strengthen theirs because none of them want any part of the University of Georgia in their out of conference schedules as well. Just a point.

[A]

Yeah, I think it's a good point too, Tim. Thank you. Be well. Take care of yourself. Let's check in with Morehead in Alabama. Hello, Morehead.

[B]

Hey, Paul, what's up?

[A]

Hey there.

[B]

Hey, man. I was just calling in kind of on a different subject about Alabama football. You know, how, you know, everybody's kind of picked them to not farewell, you know, sixth in the sec, whatever, kind of flying under the radar. But most people I talk to say it all comes down to the offensive line, you know, the offensive line, which I agree, I don't care who's quarterback. I think we're fine there. I think our receivers are good, solid on defense, but the offensive line and you know, we have a new coach and I just wanted to know, what do you know about him? I hear that he's a kind of a rah rah guy, you know, kind of, you know, you know, But I don't know that much about him other than he coached for the Patriots. But I mean, just keep counting Bama out. I think we'll be all right as long as we got him and we get that offensive line together. What do you think?

[A]

Well, I do agree with you and I've heard similar things. I don't know a lot about him, but change was needed and if you're coaching that position, you better be a rah rah guy. That's not a subtle position to coach. Darren is up next in Orlando. Good afternoon.

[B]

Hey, Paul, I've been trying to get a hold of you for a long time. I Usually wasn't a fan of your show. I, I can't stand the constant swamp dog this and arguing between each other. But I had a call in when Tammy brought up about the Big Ten today. I'm Ohio State fan. I'm a Big Ten guy and that's the mentality when we move from Ohio to Florida. Everything was SEC and I wasn't used to that up there. We just hate Michigan, but it was only sec. Now if you're whatever team, as long as Alabama won, you win it all and that's discouraging. And also the part that I don't understand is the bowl games when they were beating Big Ten teams meant something. Now that they're losing, oh, we don't really care. We're getting beat up. We play tough nose football in the Big Ten and you can ask Nico with his cracked helmet when Tennessee came up there and played us. It's not a powder puff league. There's five teams that I feel that could win it all this year. Indiana, Ohio State, Oregon, Notre Dame and Miami. There's no SEC team in there that I feel can win it this year. I just wanted your thoughts.

[A]

Yeah, I agree with some of those Big Ten schools, especially Oregon, Indiana, Ohio State, Notre Dame, Miami. I, I think Texas and Georgia are on that list. I'm not sure it goes much beyond that, but I think that's a pretty good list right there. Thank you for the call. Let me check in.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Thank you very much. Ryder is in Savannah. Good afternoon, Ryder.

[B]

Paul, how you doing?

[A]

Hey there. Good afternoon.

[B]

Oh my goodness. I've been trying to get in touch with you for about six months. You're a, you're a hard guy to get in touch with.

[A]

Well, I'm glad you made it.

[B]

I made it, baby. I got a question for you. Where do you, where do you think Seth Williams is going to commit to today? You think he's going to Clemson or to Georgia?

[A]

Ryder, I'm going to defer to you. I don't know. High school football is intriguing. I don't have any inside information on that. What time is he announcing?

[B]

Six o'. Clock.

[A]

Okay, well, one thing I know for sure, 90 minutes from now we'll all know. Thanks for the call. Appreciate it. Let me continue with Parker in Florida. Hello, Parker. Go right ahead.

[B]

How's it going, Paul? Just I wanted to talk a little bit about this Big Ten SEC debacle that's been going on. What I gather from this after watching the Big Ten media days, it's pretty much equivalent to the little brother that finally got the first place trophy and was able to take it home and show it to mom. I'm still looking back to try to see 1SEC Media Day where we saw a national championship trophy on display or it was the biggest narrative to talk about another conference and how they were better than it. I'm not going to sit here. A spade is a spade. Hey, right now they are the dominant conference, but let's not act like they are not just now getting to this party. Paul, 3 and 13 is what I'll leave you with. 3 and 13.

[A]

Parker, thank you for that stat. I don't think I could have made it without it. Let's check in with William in Georgia. Hey, William. Go right ahead.

[B]

Hey, how are you? Hey there.

[A]

Good.

[B]

You know, when you're locked in, focused and fearless. Welcome to the wnba.

[C]

Your vision narrows.

[B]

You can't look away. Every assist, every stop, every logo, three from beyond the logo, every. Did you see that moment? You bet. What records are going to be broken this season?

[C]

All of it.

[B]

Right here.

[A]

Lock in.

[C]

It's the WNBA on ESPN all season long.

[A]

In a sunny Californian suburb, one family's home is unusually quiet.

[C]

When detectives walked into that house, they said that it was like time just stood still.

[A]

It's 2010, and the McStay family is nowhere to be found inside the home. No clear answer where the family could have gone.

[B]

Husband, wife, and two children, all gone. Like, poof. Disappeared.

[A]

The search for the McStays quickly captures the nation. But for years, the search for answers only brings more questions.

[B]

Who's ever heard of an entire family going missing?

[C]

A family of four doesn't just drop

[A]

off the face of the earth with no contact. Is this a family on the run?

[B]

Or is the truth far more sinister? From ABC Audio in 2020, this is

[A]

what happened to the mixed days coming August 11th, wherever you get your podcast or subscribe to 2020 True Crime plus on Apple Podcasts for ad free episodes, early access to new episodes, and so much more. Afternoon.

[B]

I'm doing good, and I'm glad that it's getting closer and closer to college football, sir. I'm just truly happy with it. I'm. I'm a Georgia fan, but I'll root for other teams, too, when I have to. But I'm just. All I got to say and just. I'm glad it's almost here. Y' all have a good day.

[A]

Well, when we say goodbye today, the next time we see it will be in August. And I think everyone knows what that means. Why don't we take a break? We have a special guest coming up here in a few minutes, someone I've gotten to know over the years. And it's one thing just to put a book together. It's another thing to put your entire life into one about one of the most interesting personalities in the history of college football. We'll talk to Tim Johnson coming up next.

[B]

You're listening to the Paul Feinbaum Show Podcast.

[A]

And welcome back. And I cannot tell you how excited I am about our next guest. We met a couple of years ago and have stayed in touch. And it's all been about this one book that has just come out, Robert Neyland, the West Point engineer who built Tennessee football, written by Dr. Timothy Johnson, who is a distinguished historian. He's written a number of books and papers, American history, of course, his specialty. He teaches at LISCOM in Nashville. And Dr. Johnson, we've met. But what a thrill to see you again because I know this is not just some idle thing that you decided to do one night. This has been a project of many, many years. Good afternoon.

[C]

Good afternoon, Paul. Thank you for having me. Having me on. And yes, we've kind of, kind of been in touch off and on over the years. I've been keeping you abreast of this project. But you're right, I've been kind of wall to wall Robert Nealon for the last few years. Really. I wanted to finish this book in time for it to come out in 2026, which, as you know, is an important year. It was the 100th anniversary of Neyland's first year as the coach at UT.

[A]

And Dr. Johnson, there's a, I mean, I've seen attempts at this and, you know, by great sports writers and other people, and I'm sure you've read every word that's ever been written about the General. So there's no easy way to ask you to make it simple for folks who don't know much about him. They know his name's on the stadium and he's a general. So I hate to ask a professor, somebody of such great knowledge to try to make it simple for us laypeople, but give it a shot, because I think we all are fascinated by the subject.

[C]

Well, I mean, you're right. Everyone knows, knows him as this legendary coach at the University of Tennessee. 21 seasons, 173 wins, 4 national championships, and everyone knows that. But here's what people don't know about Robert Neyland. He was an outstanding athlete at West Point he graduated West Point 1916, where he had attended with Dwight Eisenhower, Omar Bradley, and a host of other future World War II generals. But he turned down pro contract offers from Major League Baseball teams because he wanted to be an engineer in the Army. He was sent to France during World War I. He was active duty military until 1936, his first decade in Knoxville. He was still an active duty officer in the Army. And then his most impressive portion of his military career was what he did in the Second World War in China and in India. And most people just don't really know anything about that part of Neyland's career. And, you know, the fascinating thing about Neyland, and what is so impressive with him, is that he had two careers simultaneously. And he went back and forth between the army and the gridiron and back to the army, and he transitioned seamlessly. And here's the thing, he excelled at both. Neyland was not mediocre at anything that he did in his life.

[A]

And, Dr. Johnson, you mentioned World War II, which we all know when it began. But those late 30s, Tennessee was at the epicenter of college football. I mean, you couldn't score on them. They had a season, I believe, once where I don't think they gave up a point during the regular season. So this isn't just some average football coach who then has to go to take a command. It's just in learning and researching and talking to a zillion people. What. What was that period like, especially before the war?

[C]

Yeah, you're right. I mean, 1938, 39, and 40 I describe in the book as the first dynasty in Southeastern Conference history. The conference had been around for a few years, founded in 1933, but that 38, 39 and 40 team was. Well, they were undefeated all three years in the regular season. The 1939 team you referenced a moment ago wasn't even scored on all year. They went to bowl games three consecutive years. I mean, this was. One writer describes this time period as the golden age of football in Knoxville. And it was. And no one could derail the Neyland football train except world affairs. And so Europe went. Went to war in 1939. And by 1941, you know, the war clouds are on the horizon. And the army, he had already retired after 20 years of active duty. He retired in 1936. So he had been just a coach for several years, for five years. Then the army called him back to active duty, and he served in Virginia. He served in Texas doing engineering projects, building projects, strengthening the defenses around The Chesapeake Bay. Then the army sent him to China and then to India. And that's where he made his greatest impact in the war effort against Japan.

[A]

And I want to get to that. His record speaks for itself. I've always been most impressed with his SEC record. We talk about how difficult it is to win in the SEC. His overall record was 103, 17 and 10, just in the SEC alone. But so he comes back from the war, and I want to go back to the war for a second. You mentioned the theater that I'm sure scholars that didn't study under you or with you probably are not that familiar with. Not to give a tutorial here, but we all know about, obviously the theater in France and Germany and throughout Western Europe and Eastern Europe. We know about Japan. But you said India and China. I'm particularly interested as a historical buff. What did the General do there?

[C]

Well, he was involved in the supply chain, funneling supplies to China. China was engaged in a war against Japan on the continent of China. And this was very important to the American war effort because as the US Navy and Marines were fighting their way across the Pacific, it was very important that the Chinese were tying down a million Japanese troops and in China. And so the United States is supplying war material to the Chinese army, supplying war material to the British in Burma and also to American forces in the area. And so Neland is first sent to Kunming, China, where he distributed supplies mostly to the Chinese forces and also to US army air forces that were flying out of southern China.

[B]

But then.

[A]

Go ahead, by the way, keep going. But I mean, it's just like one of those things that, you know, you being a scholar, you don't think about when you're thumbing through your history book in the seventh grade.

[C]

Yeah, right. I mean, people don't really know much about the China, Burma, India theater. You touched on that a moment ago. I mean, we all know about, you know, D Day and what happened in Europe and, and people know about the island hopping in the Pacific, but who, who really knows about what's, what's happening in Burma and, and in India and in China? Not many people do, and frankly, not many historians have, have researched that topic. I, I've recently been watching that World War II series on the History Channel that Tom Hanks narrates, and I've been waiting for a mention of Calcutta. And I thought maybe they'll mention Neyland when he was port commander, because he made Calcutta the most prolific military supply base in the world, literally in 1945. No mention of it in, in the documentary, but that's, that's sort of par for the course. And the reason why I think that so much of this goes unnoticed in Neyland's career is that he was not a combat commander. And you know, people, people love to talk about the battlefield tacticians, you know, the, the Pattons and the, in the MacArthur's. But Neyland was a logistics and supply guy and his work was extremely important. He knew it, his men knew it, but it just is, it's mostly unheralded.

[A]

Well, for what he wasn't heralded at as a military general, he certainly made up for it as a football coach. So let me get to that point. So the war ends obviously in 45, in 46, he returned to Tennessee. Was that, what was that decision like for him? Was it, was it easy to come back after, after being gone all that time? Was he interested in something else? Explain.

[C]

He was anxious to get back to coaching. He had been absent for five years and Tennessee did, did pretty well in his absence. But not, they were not on, on par with, with the Neyland coached teams. But he wanted to get back. He had a pretty good year in 46, but then he had two down years. The two worst years in his career were 47 and 48. And now you know, the fans begin to question, you know, General Neyland is, you know, he's, he's been around a long time. He's getting a little long, little long in the tooth and maybe it's time for a new coach. And he's still running that old, that old covered wagon offense they called his single wing. And then he just proved them all wrong by winning back to back national championships in 1950 and 51.

[A]

Dr. Johnson, I came too late at Tennessee by quite a long time, but thank goodness I was not that sports editor of the school of paper in 48. And I called for General Neyland's firing. I don't know if I could have lived. Because you're right, in 50 they go 11 and 1. In 51 they win the national championship. And there have not been many of those in Tennessee history, as you're well aware. And then he closed out, you know, three consecutive years ranked third, first and eighth. So in 52, a little bit like Saban in his final year, they slipped back. They only went to the cotton ball, had a 81 and 1 regular season. What prompted the General to finally say, okay, I pretty much done it all?

[C]

Well, his health was, he was suffering a little bit from health issues which really originated from his service in China. In 1944 he became very sick and, and was admitted to the hospital and was in, you know, had bed rest for weeks and they didn't know it at the time, but he had contracted hepatitis, infectious hepatitis. And he in the doctors never diagnosed hepatitis and he was never treated for that. And so hepatitis gone undiagnosed can wreak havoc on the liver and the kidneys. And over time then his health begins to decline by, you know, 1950, 51 and by 52. And I've talked with Jim Haslam and Mack Franklin who just recently passed away, but both of those gentlemen were playing on Neyland's team in the early 50s and they indicate that it was pretty clear that his health was not, he was not at 100% in 1952, but he was, I mean he was still pretty active. I might mention that he was a great dancer and he won an Arthur Murray dance contest in 1948 when he was 56 years old.

[A]

That's amazing. I'm not going to tell it all because it's. But so afterwards Bowden Wyatt took over. A well respected former player. He had one big year in 56 when Johnny Majors was his star player. But after that it became impossible. And just like everyone else, following Bryant, following Saban, following the General ultimately was, was a, it took about 40 years to figure that one out.

[C]

Yeah, it's, it's never good to follow a legend and, and you know, too many people have found that out too late. But yeah, it was tough, it was tough to walk in his footsteps for sure.

[A]

We're very late. I know you're going to be in Memphis bookside. You're going to be everywhere.

[C]

Be in Memphis tomorrow. That's right. And I will be. Monday night I'll be in Montgomery, Alabama at the gridiron kickoff with a couple of your friends from espn. And I'll be in Knoxville for four separate engagements in September and October. But my website has all of my book signing events. If people are interested they can go to timdjohnson.com and see what I'm going to be.

[A]

And I've had this book for some time and I just can't tell you how great it is and how the historical perspective is just so valuable. Dr. Johnson, all the very best as you tour the South. The name of the book, Robert Neyland, the West Point engineer who built Tennessee Football, by a very special guest, Dr. Timothy Johnson. Blake Nealon with the forward. We're heading to a Break. We'll be right back.

[B]

You're listening to the Paul Feinbaum show podcast.

[A]

We are back and Sadler is up next in Madison, Wisconsin. Good afternoon.

[B]

Hey, Paul, how's it going? How are you?

[A]

We are doing great.

[B]

All right, well, I want to start by talking about the Alabama Cruiser tie first up. I, I'm born and raised in Birmingham and, but I live in the Big ten, so the SEC in the Big Ten, they're going to be going at, at each other like this for years and years going on. It's not going to stop. It's non stop. Mid 10 sec is right. And to top it off, cousin Nanny, the one that won the title game and Pulpit, he was one of Nick Saban's assistants and he won from one of the greatest coaches there was and that happens to be an sec.

[A]

Thank you Sadler for sharing that. Andrew is up next in Dallas.

[B]

Hey, Paul.

[A]

Hey there.

[B]

He should have followed up with Kurt and asked him, hey, man, if it's so easy to beat all these SEC teams, why don't you schedule some of them out of conference? I mean, I'd love for Texas to play them because I think, I think we got a pretty good shot at them, especially with that gunslinger they got out of Rockwell, Texas. And God, his name escapes me. But you know what, he likes to play fast and loose with that football. So, you know, and when's the brass going to get their stuff together, man? Do they just not care about winning anymore? What's their deal, Paul?

[A]

Well, I think they do care. I mean, I think in Matt Rule they're closer than they've ever been. I mean, don't forget they swung and missed on Scott Frost who was about, about as automatic as you could get. But I think they are, they're just one of the most snake bit programs. I think Nebraska is very close to turning it around now. That's about the 17th year in a row I've said that. Paul is up next in Texas. Hello, Paul, good afternoon. Hey Paul, you there? Victor. Victor is up next in San Antonio. Victor, go right ahead.

[B]

Hey Paul, thanks for taking my call. Hey, regarding SEC versus the Big Ten. Right now, the Big Ten, they're on top. To the Victor go the spoils. So there's no denying that. But I don't think this is something that's going to last for years and years. In fact, I think the Big Ten is the recipient of three miracle seasons by these, by these three schools, Michigan, Ohio State and Indiana. You got Michigan with cheating Jim Harbaugh and cheating Connor Stallion. They cheated their way all the way to a national championship. And, you know, they got lucky beating Alabama. If Alabama doesn't run the worst play in college football history, at the end of that game, we win that game. But don't get me started on that. But. But then you got Ohio State. They. They get hot at the end of the season, and they make an unprecedented run to the Natty and win it. And then you got Indiana, who just. They just plowed through everybody last year. So three miracle seasons by these teams that none of these schools had seen in quite a long time. So in my opinion, I think the miracles are about to run out, and I think the SEC will be back on top very soon. So it's a new season, and I'm looking forward to it, and I'm looking forward to the Big Ten going down this year. Roll Tide Victor.

[A]

Thank you. I love all the. The confidence from SEC land. We'll take a break. We have two hours to go. Chris Dorian joins us, talking about some interviews with various coaches and more of your calls.