B (2:06)

A warning this episode discusses youth, depression and suicide. These topics may be distressing for some listeners.

E (2:15)

What really kind of had drawn me to it was that he looks like he looked like Clark Kent at the Superman in the sky is like just kind of More of a nerdier version of it. And then it seemed like I'm a vibes person, and I don't know how, but I got like a good vibe from the profile. I was wrong about that, but it is what it is.

B (2:36)

That's a former Truman State University student named Tristan Weiser explaining why she was attracted to Brandon Grossheim, whom she met on Tinder. Brandon would soon develop a strange notoriety. He became notorious on campus, tied up in the deaths of four young suicide victims in Kirksville. To this day, many people claim he has blood on his hands. But it's not like he was some sort of sociopath, some sort of monster, at least not outwardly. In fact, he seemed like the opposite of a sociopath. People called him empathetic. He was confident, articulate, cultured. He wasn't a bad looking guy. And until things started falling apart, clean cut and well groomed, he came across as someone capable of getting along with anyone. The upper crust, the working class, the business majors, even the stoners. Most shocking was how people trusted him so deeply, they wanted to share with him their deepest, darkest secrets. The fourth suicide victim, Josh Thomas, told Brandon that he was the person he trusted more than anyone else. That's according to the lawsuit against Brandon. Even after the suicides began, people continued confiding in him and they still somehow trusted him. After he was accused of encouraging his friends to commit suicide, or at the very least, not trying to talk them out of it, I wanted to know why. Why were so many people drawn to this guy? Why were so many people willing to spill their hearts out to him? Unfortunately, we can't get answers from from these young men who died, but we can get answers from the young women he was involved with. Because Brandon dated a lot. Some were proper girlfriends, though. Others were more like romantic flings or even just flirtations. Oddly, Brandon was kind of a player, even while people were dying all around him. And most of these relationships, according to the women involved, were disturbingly psychological. At least one said it was almost like he was grooming her for suicide herself. Almost all of the women with whom Brandon had romantic relationships had something in common. They were in bad places in their lives. You know how some guys have a type? Some prefer blondes, some like brunettes. Brandon's type of it appeared, were girls who were severely depressed. This podcast series tells the story of the most infamous suicide cluster in American history. It's a production of Iheart Podcasts and Cool Fire Studios. I'm your host, Ben Westoff, along with Ryan Krul. This is the peacemaker. One of Brandon's girlfriends was named Casey Menginese, a Delta Zeta who had been dating Jake Hughes right before he died. Jake, you might recall, was Brandon Grossheim's fraternity brother at the Alpha Kappa Lambda house. He was the second suicide victim in our story. The night he killed himself in August 2016, there was a raging party at Alpha Kappa Lambda. Jake and his girlfriend Casey had both been drinking. They were arguing and there was a lot of drama. According to a police report, Jake told Casey that he felt like driving into a lake and killing himself. And so that night, Casey asked Brandon to keep an eye on Jake. But according to Brandon, when he went to talk to Jake, Jake gave him his keys and asked him to drive his girlfriend Casey home. Here's Brandon talking to police. Bobby, give me his keys. Yeah, because he had me drive his girlfriend Casey home. Okay. I was driving around his car. I was taking people home and stuff until around 1:30. When Brandon returned, he keyed into Jake's room and found him hanging from a wardrobe. Everyone was devastated. Jake's family, Jake's girlfriend Casey, the members of Alpha Kappa Lambda. Brandon too. So perhaps they were only trying to comfort each other. But Brandon and Casey got together almost right away. According to a police report, they started seeing each other right after Jake's death in April 2017. About seven months later, Brandon told a counselor that it took a month for him and Casey to become official, but that they had now been dating for a while. If that was working for them, great. But what some people found creepy was that this would not be the first time nor the last time that Brandon was linked to girlfriends of the suicide victims. Brandon also appears to have dated an ex girlfriend of the first person who took his own life, Alex Mullins, and the girlfriend of the third victim, Alex Vogt. What drew him to these women? Why would someone want to date a former girlfriend of a suicide victim? I posed these questions to Rita Laszewski, a suicide prevention trainer based in Milwaukee.

E (8:35)

At the very least, I could say that he loved being in the thick of a situation which he may think he had a small part on. And he didn't want to lose that identity of someone who either precipitated a suicide or else he, he, he wanted to continue on in that vein. Sometimes it is not unusual. You know, we all like the spotlight to some extent. We all like to be titillated by what's going on. And he may have used his reaction.

B (9:11)

Or trying to get in with these women as a way to continue that.

E (9:15)

Titillation and perhaps in nefarious ways, try to manipulate them also.

B (9:24)

And it wasn't just the girlfriends of suicide victims. Brandon had other women in his sights as well. And most of these relationships, according to the women, were extremely manipulative. Let's go back to Tristan Weiser, the former Truman State student who originally met Brandon on Tinder. He helped her with her studies, and they were briefly romantic. Tristan told me she was depressed at the time, and they spoke about dark subjects, presumably. It sounds like he had some sort of obsession with life and death.

E (10:00)

Yeah, I do remember that being something that we did talk about. As I was. I've always been like an alternative person into, like, dark humor and enjoying of that stuff. Like, my favorite movie of all time is Nightmare for Christmas, Afterlife Love. And I was very, very deep into it then. I was also in a darker place, but, like, I was more willing to talk about when I was depressed and things like that. And I just kind of felt. I guess I may have felt like it was somebody from Biden, which is what I needed at the time. He was one of the people that would ask me about it, and that's what had gotten me feel to feel comfortable because not many people were asking me about it.

B (10:39)

At first. She appreciated his willingness to talk to her about her depression.

E (10:44)

At first it was, tell me more, tell me more how you feel, and then, why does it make you feel that? What does it make you think? And it feels like you're being pushed to explore yourself when you're really being pushed to expose your weaknesses.

B (11:00)

And so you think he was trying to exploit those weaknesses?

E (11:04)

Possibly. Very possibly with everything that. Yeah, yeah. I don't see that on any other way. For the way he approached things to have been.

B (11:13)

These conversations between Tristan and Brandon took place after the deaths of the first two suicide victims, Alex Mullins and Jake Hughes. Brandon and Tristan also talked about whether she herself had considered suicide.

E (11:31)

We had talked about my depression and things like that, and I had never thought about that. It never got to that point. I just expressed deep sadness.

B (11:40)

At some point, Brandon started to get extremely awkward. Tristan says.

E (11:46)

I remember we'd only been hanging out and talking for a little while when one of the nights that we were studying, he wasn't studying. He was helping me study. I'd asked him to come over and, like, just in the middle of me writing or doing something, we were sitting on my futon, I think, and he just stuck his hand across my stomach. And I was like, what are you doing? He was like, I wanted to feel you breathe. And I was like, okay, that's definitely not just awkward.

B (12:15)

I wanted to feel you breathe, she says. Brandon said. Brandon, for his part, has said he doesn't remember this interaction. Eventually, she didn't want to see him anymore.

E (12:27)

I slowly phased out even talking to him and eventually tried to, like, actively avoid him on campus because I just didn't want to feel that awkward of feeling again.

B (12:37)

And it wasn't just Tristan. Brandon seemed obsessed with getting together with depressed girls and offering them his twisted form of counsel. Sometimes he presented himself as their knight in shining armor. According to an unnamed young woman interviewed for a New Yorker story, Brandon shielded her from a male student who kept hitting on her at a party. They then went to gross him's room, where she deflected an invitation to share his bed. But here's where it gets a bit disturbing. According to a Truman State employee, this unnamed young woman from the New Yorker story, the one who declined to share Brandon's bed, later told Brandon that she was severely depressed. He then comforted her and said that if she chose to commit suicide, he would support her decision and her family and friends would understand. According to the story, the young woman did not agree that they would understand at all. Grossheim's response to this allegation. He claimed his words had been misinterpreted and that he would, quote, never condoned suicide or encouraged the act. Then there was a different young woman from Kirksville named Lauren George. In 2019, she told a Kirksville television station that following the four suicides, she and Brandon had been, quote, developing their relationship into something more serious than just friends. Lauren, too, was going through a rough time. She didn't always want to talk about her depression, she said, but Brandon insisted.

A (14:23)

With me going through a rough time, there were times that I didn't want to talk about it. And I noticed that during times that him and I would just be having conversation, he'd want to try to talk about the feelings that I was having.

B (14:39)

She worried that had she kept talking to him, she could have been the next suicide victim.

E (14:45)

The downer attitude just I didn't want.

A (14:48)

To be around that.

B (14:50)

Brandon did not respond to a request for comment about Lauren's claims. But others also accused Brandon of playing mind games. One woman says he used psychological pressure to try to get women to sleep with him. This was another young woman featured in the New Yorker story who requested anonymity. She told the article's writer, D.T. max, that Brandon manipulated her into having sex. Grossheim put his head in her lap and Implied that he'd have nothing to live for if she didn't sleep with him. She said. Further, this woman said another woman told her Grosseim had done the same thing to her. Brandon denied these claims, admitting only that he used sex as a coping mechanism. That's possible. It's also possible that, you know, guys are horny, and horny guys are known for using every possible angle to try to score. But I doubt that's the whole story, because according to just about everyone we talk to, Brandon was drawn to depressed people, both men and women alike, and they were drawn to him. I think it's because he actually listened to them. In a world full of social climbers and low attention attention spans and people being glued to their phones, he made them believe their feelings mattered. They poured their hearts out to him. And then he took this information and used it to manipulate them. At least that's what many people claim. But not everyone. One of his defenders has stuck up for Brandon through thick and thin. Her name is Madeline Mazerak, a former soil science major at Truman State. She was dating suicide victim number three, Alex Vogt, at the time of his death, and according to a mutual acquaintance, started dating Brandon afterwards. It was insanely wrong and hurtful to see my friend Brandon Grossheim labeled as a death obsessed frat boy in headlines. She told me Madeline's support shows that when it comes to Brandon Grossheim, there truly is no consensus. For all the people who blame him for the deaths of the four Kirksville students, there are many who believe he was railroaded or that he was a victim himself. In fact, there was one group of people who didn't seem to think Brandon had done anything wrong at all. This group seems to have gone out of their way to make sure he was never made uncomfortable. This group of people? I'm talking about the cops.

A (17:51)

Did you know Tide has been upgraded to provide an even better clean in cold water? Tide is specifically designed to fight any stain you throw at it. Even in cold butter. Yep. Chocolate ice cream. Sure thing. Barbecue sauce. Tide's got you covered. You don't need to use warm water. Additionally, Tide pods let you confidently fight tough stains with new coldzyme technology. Just remember, if it's gotta be clean, it's gotta be Tide. The following ad is sponsored by Pet's Best Insurance Services. You knew right away. He's perfect. The one for you. Those puppy dog eyes, that cute little button nose. You don't even mind the drool. When you find your perfect match in a dog or cat, the love is unconditional Your budget, on the other hand, has realistic limits. Help protect your heart and your wallet with pet insurance from Pets Best. With plans starting from less than a dollar a day, you can get up to 90% cash back on eligible vet bills. Pets Best makes it easy to pick a plan that works for you and your bank account. Find the perfect match for your Perfect match@petsbest.com Pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independence American Insurance Company for terms and conditions, visit www.petsbest.com. policy products are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company, Independence American Insurance Company or Ms. Transverse Insurance Company and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services LLC. $1.00 a day premium based on 2024 average new policyholder data for accident and illness plans. Pets age 0 to 10 I'm here.

B (19:21)

With Spinquest where you can play and.

C (19:23)

Win from the comfort of your own.

B (19:25)

Home with hundreds of slot games and all of the table games you love with real cash prizes.

C (19:31)

Right now, $30 coin packs are on sale for $10 for new users.

B (19:36)

It's all@spinquest.com that's S-P I N Q.

C (19:41)

U-S T.com Spinquest is a free to.

B (19:44)

Play social casino void where prohibited.

C (19:46)

Visit spinquest.com for more details.

D (19:51)

Every story begins somewhere for your child. It could begin with a Guardian bike built right here in engineered for safety and designed for confidence. Kids of all ages are learning to ride in just one day. No tears, no frustration. It's why Guardian is America's favorite kids bike and the New York Times and Wirecutter's top pick three years in a row this holiday season. Give the gift that's safer, smarter and built to last. Visit guardianbikes.com to save up to 40% on all bikes plus a free accessory bundle worth over $1.

F (20:30)

The way it was handled was very Keystone Coppish in my opinion. The fact that they treated it as just a cut and dry suicide from the beginning, cleared the scene, let everybody in. That became apparent that they should have done something different very early on. There's still things that keep coming up that don't make sense. It became really clear that the police had not done the job that they should have.

B (20:54)

That's Melissa Bodorf Airey. She's Alex Mullins mother whom we talked to earlier in the series. She accuses the Kirksville police of mishandling his case. None of the Kirksville police officers would speak to us for this story, but because of public records laws, we Have a good sense of how they investigated the suicide of Alex Mullins and the three that followed. Not everyone thinks the police did a bad job. Louann Gilchrist, vice President of Student affairs at Truman state, told the St. Louis Post Dispatch that she believes the police were very thorough. And I will also say that after reading police logs and listening to hours of the detectives interviews, I sympathize with them. Police investigations are difficult, especially in an unusual case like this with this strange character, Brandon Grossheim, at the center of everything. But the fact remains that they made a lot of mistakes. We're gonna go through some examples where the police seem disorganized and didn't appear to be taking the investigation seriously. And then we'll talk about why that matters. In this audio clip, you can hear Brandon finishing up his written statement regarding one of the deaths and a detective preparing to interview him. Wish I stopped. I've led up to the part where I had a knock on my door and it was, please, that's fine. There's a spot for you to print it. There you go. But the problem is that when the detective starts interviewing Brandon, the detective hasn't even been briefed about the case. Okay, so let's go along. Help me out. Give me this second, because I don't even know what's going on. So I was just sitting at home. They just called me. So who's the girl that's at the apartment? Here's a clear mistake from police. During an interview following the death of Alex Vogt, the third suicide victim, the detective is talking with Alex's girlfriend, Madeleine Mazurek, who's obviously mourning. But the detective gets Alex's name wrong. He calls him Daniel, which is Alex's father's name. So what I want to ask you about is a poster that was found in Daniel's apartment, and they're talking about Dan.

E (23:32)

Veronica.

B (23:33)

Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It was in. Your boyfriend's apartment. Yeah, Alex. Alex. I'm sorry. I couldn't remember his first name and my computer's locked up. The Kirksville Police Department seemed disorganized. Not having your facts straight before interviewing someone in mourning is bad form. And sometimes the investigators seemed extremely casual about what they were doing, like they weren't even taking it seriously. Here's a detective interviewing an Alpha Kappa Lambda member immediately after the death of the fourth victim, Josh Thomas, the openly gay fraternity brother who took his own life. The questions focus on Josh's dating life. You ain't aware of any short term dates? A Lot of gay guys don't. They're a lot more into one night than they are forever. Yeah, I mean, he. I mean, he definitely had those, but nothing like. Do you know anything in the last week where he had a partner? I have no idea. He kept all that very private to himself. And especially if we were all just hanging out, he would have never been. And he said sex with so and so never did sit around and talk like that, huh? Yeah, I'm sure that would freak out all your fraternity buddies pretty seriously. I've known fraternity guys sit around and talk about different women that they were with, but I never. I can. I would imagine that if you came back talking about different guys, you'd be in a whole nother world quick. There were other complaints too. For example, Josh Thomas mother was troubled that an officer ignored her communications for months after Josh's death. But where I think the police really dropped the ball is when it came to the investigation of Brandon Grossheim. Lots of people think Brandon Grosseim should have been charged criminally in these suicides, including family and friends of the victims. He knew all four victims closely and counseled them very poorly in their hours of grief. But Brandon Grosseim was never charged. The police investigated him, but it's not clear when their investigation started or ended. And to be honest, it all seemed rather perfunctory. Take this interview, for example. From September 2019, an officer arrives to the pizza place where Brandon was working at the time to talk to him. When he arrives, Brandon is manning the counter. Hello, Brandon. How you doing today? Good, how are you? Do you have a minute where I can talk to you if you're not in any trouble or anything, and if you want to wait till. Sure, sure. No problem at all. Brandon nervously ducks into the back, presumably to find someone to cover for him at the counter, and then speaks with the officer outside. Like I said, I'm not trying to obviously with this whole. Have you been served or anything yet? I got served on the 14th. That's none of my business, so you don't have to tell me. We've been asked to kind of review some stuff. If you choose not to answer these, you're not in any trouble. I've got nothing against you. Okay? The detective asks him about a couple of mildly conflicting statements Brandon had given police previously about the electricity in his off campus apartment. This issue about the electricity doesn't seem to have anything to do with anything. But then the investigator asks him about something that does seem relevant. It concerns a poster belonging to one of Brandon's neighbors, a guy named Cody. Around the time he was moving out of the building, he had some friends sign the poster as a kind of going away card. Brandon signed it, and then next to his name, he wrote Die Master. Like D, I, E. Master. Die Master. Yeah, Die Master. Dye Master is beer. Dye Master. It's a beer drinking game. Oh, okay. Never heard of it. I guess maybe that shows my age, but it's really popular at akl. I know all the fraternities have their own variations of it, so. Okay, so just a beer drinking game. And obviously you were pretty good at it. If they're calling you the Master. It was one of the. I mean, it's all about hand signation. Throw a die up to a certain height, toss this ceiling, land on the other side of the table. Keep up. Somebody drink. Brandon's not making this up. It's a real game. I heard it referenced by a different Truman State student, but it's still a cheeky nickname to self apply Die Master, especially in these dark circumstances. No, maybe it's just a fraternity thing like he claimed. The detective probably should have probed this more, but he just left it at that and sent Brandon on his merry way. So, yeah, if you need somebody, I'd like to talk to you or something, give me a holler, okay?

C (28:50)

All right.

B (28:50)

Sorry to bug you at work, but thank you. Have a good day. Most of the other police interviews I've heard with Brandon miss the mark. They never get around to asking him the most basic questions, like, why are you so often in the mix when people kill themselves? That's my opinion, anyway. What do you think, Producer Ryan?

C (29:13)

Well, when you dive into just about any police homicide investigation, you know, you're gonna find things that are less than impressive. You know, there's a lot of officers and detectives involved, and a lot of them are just sort of kicking the can. But there's usually one detective who's ultimately like, the quarterback of any particular investigation. You know, other people are just sort of checking boxes and listening to this audio. You know, reading these interrogations. It's sort of like everyone is kicking the can, checking boxes, and no one really takes the lead. And fairness, this is a really unusual case. It's hard to know what sort of crime they'd even charge Brandon with. But, you know, the Kirksville Police Department didn't strike me as being overwhelmed in the way that, like, St. Louis's or Kansas City's police departments are, you know, routinely overwhelmed. You know, KPD could have at least been more direct. They seem weirdly like they're kind of trying to spare Brandon embarrassment.

B (30:07)

That's a really good point. Yeah. Well, thank you, Ryan.

C (30:10)

Sure.

B (30:13)

At one point, police administered a lie detector test to him and Brandon actually failed it. It's not clear why, though. Brandon claimed to have misunderstood one of the questions. Whatever the case, he was not required to take the lie detector test again. And as I said, he was never charged criminally in the suicides. This absolutely incensed some of the parents of the suicide victims. They wanted Brandon Grosseim held accountable in some some shape or form, and so they took action.

A (30:58)

Protect your pet with insurance from Pets Best Plans start from less than a dollar a day. Visit petsbest.com Pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services LLC are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independence American Insurance Company for terms and conditions, visit www.petsbest.com. policy products are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company, Independence American Insurance Company or Ms. Transverse Insurance Company and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC. $1.00 a day premium based on 2024 average new policyholder data for accident and illness plans. Pets age 0 to 10 every story.

D (31:29)

Begins somewhere for your child. It could begin with a Guardian bike built right here in the usa, engineered for safety and designed for confidence. Kids of all ages are learning to ride in just one day. No tears, no frustration. It's why Guardian is America's favorite kids bike and the New York Times and Wirecutter's top pick three years in a row. This holiday season, give the gift that's safer, smarter and built to last. Visit guardianbikes.com to save up to 40% on all bikes plus a free accessory bundle worth over $100.

A (31:59)

The wait is over. The Knicks Black Friday sale is on now@Knix.com shop early and save up to 60% off site wide, plus all kinds of limited time daily deals from the number one leak proof brand in North America. Don't miss your chance to save big on innovative intimates like leak proof underwear, wireless bras, shapewear and more. Everything is on sale. Millions have made the switch to NYX's revolutionary period underwear and there's never been a better time for you to try them too. During the Black Friday sale, save up to 60% on super comfy machine, washable and stylish leak proof undies. Plus shop the best deals of the year on NYX's best selling assortment of wireless bras. Don't miss this chance to stock up on your NYX favorites or try something new during the NYX Black Friday event. That's knix.com the sale ends December 2nd and sizes will sell out. Go to nyx.com that's kn I x.com the holidays usually wreck my skin, but I started using KPS Essentials Kindness Powered Skincare, and it's been doing work. The Renew serum, the texture, the scent, the way it melts right in, it just feels different. And about 30 minutes later, my skin actually changed. Smoother, firmer, brighter. And if you're gifting, spend $200 and they'll throw in a travel size. Renew Eternal youth. It's a $90 bonus. Browse the products@kpsessentials.com.

B (33:39)

Truman State student Alex Mullins was the first to die in the Kirksville, Missouri, suicide cluster. He took his own life at the Alpha Kappa Lambda fraternity house in August 2016. His mother, Melissa Bodorf Airy, raised Alex in the Kansas City area, but she now lives in Florida. When we talked to her, she told us she couldn't escape the feeling that her son didn't have to die, that perhaps there was foul play involved.

F (34:08)

I mean, a lot of things just didn't start adding up.

B (34:11)

For one thing, she couldn't understand why she wasn't contacted until many, many hours after his death.

F (34:18)

The 911 call went in about 12:21, 20 minutes after noon. We were called right after 12:30. So we were called within 10 minutes of him supposedly being found. But then later uncovered phone records that showed a lot of the young men involved had been communicating with each other all morning for hours. They had a. An app that they communicated through as a fraternity, you know. Now, I believe that that's not accidental. I'm sure a lot of fraternities do that. Like, we're not going to use the traceable ways of communicating our good and bad mis things that we do. An app like that, once it's deleted, there's nothing that you can pull from it. Like, it's just gone.

B (35:04)

In 2019, Bottorf Airy and the parents of Josh Thomas, the fourth suicide victim, filed suit against Alpha Kappa Lambda, the fraternity their sons and Brandon Grosseim belonged to. The suit alleged that the fraternity had known of the danger presented by Grosseim and done nothing. In a settlement reached in 2023, Bottorf Airy received $175,000, while the parents of Josh Thomas, Suzanne and Michael received $900,000. We can only guess why Josh Thomas parents got so much more, since all parties involved are sworn to secrecy. Maybe it was because Josh was the final of the three fraternity deaths, meaning Alpha Kappa Lambda had long been aware of Brandon Grossheim's influence by then, but we can't know for sure. The parents also filed suit against Truman State for allowing Grossheim, quote unquote, unfettered access to their sons, despite his potential danger to them. This lawsuit was dismissed. So now the only outstanding lawsuit they have left is against Brandon Grosseim.

F (36:20)

He just apparently had a personality that was the type that was a little bit preoccupied with depression and sadness and suicide, to the point that, you know, he would, from what I found out later, he would tell people that their families would understand, like he would take a vulnerable person and in a encouraging way, like, that it was going to be a good thing that they could end their life and that that would end their suffering and that it's not a sin and that it's, you know, their families would understand and nobody wants them to be in pain. And those were all the things we were told.

B (37:00)

Though Botorf Airy's son Alex was friends with Brandon, she does not believe that Brandon had good intentions with him.

F (37:08)

Do I think Manson had good intentions? No. I look at Brandon in the same light as I look at somebody like that. No, I don't think the intentions are good.

B (37:18)

She believes that Brandon encouraged her son Alex to commit suicide, and that belief is the basis of the civil lawsuit against the him. I spoke about the lawsuit with our producer, Ryan Krull. So help us understand this case. There's no evidence that Brandon explicitly told anyone to kill themselves. Right. So what exactly are the plaintiffs arguing?

C (37:42)

So, yeah, they're arguing that Brandon was aware that these young men were struggling with their mental health, and that made them extremely persuadable and open to suggestions by anyone, including Brandon. But despite that, Brandon nonetheless continued to take drugs with these guys, and he'd counseled them to deal with their depression and do their own free will. And those are basically euphemisms for suicide, is what the suit alleges, at least.

B (38:07)

Okay, but even if that were true, is that illegal?

C (38:11)

Well, Missouri law makes it clear. And this is quoting exactly from Missouri law, and what it says is that anyone who knowingly assists another in the commission of self murder and is guilty of involuntary manslaughter. So, of course the plaintiffs are gonna be pointing to that at trial. But that is criminal law, which is separate from civil. In a civil suit, though, you actually just have to show what's called a preponderance of the evidence, that if it weren't for Brandon's actions, Alex Mullets and Josh Thomas would still be alive today.

B (38:43)

Interesting.

C (38:44)

Yeah. We did talk to Brandon's attorney, Curtis Nywald, and he believes there's problems with the lawsuit. You know, it's very difficult for me.

B (38:53)

To discern what exactly they think my client did wrong. There's nothing that I've seen specific as.

C (39:00)

To what he did to cause these.

B (39:02)

Young men to commit suicide. I can see that argument. Also, it's still not clear to me how you can charge someone for someone else's suicide.

F (39:12)

Yeah.

C (39:13)

So Missouri law actually has changed on this a little bit over the years. Previously, suicide was regarded as a voluntary act, which meant that no one else could be held responsible for it other than the person, you know, who took their own Life. But about 20 years ago, case law actually started to change. Courts began ruling that, like, let's say, if a surgeon botches a procedure so badly that it leaves a patient in such chronic pain that they're driven to end their own life. In cases like that, the patient's family, the deceased's family can sue the surgeon. So now, technically, in Missouri, someone can be held liable for someone else's suicide, but it's rare. And like I said, it's usually a health care provider who's being sued.

B (39:55)

Okay, thanks for explaining that. And then another question. The lawsuit against Brandon Grossheim is federal, right? Why is that?

C (40:04)

Well, originally, it was in state court, and in that situation, the jury pool would have been exclusively people from Adair county or people from around Kirksville. And in that case, you're going to have a situation where the jury's much more likely to have heard of Brandon Grosseim and probably be less sympathetic to him. So I'm guessing that the defense is reasoning that if they move it to federal court, they'll be able to draw from a much wider jury pool. It's literally half the state, the eastern half of the state. So what the defense is thinking is that that jury pool, the larger jury pool, is going to be less biased towards the defendant in this case.

B (40:39)

And then, I know they got hundreds of thousands of dollars from the Fraternity, but why are they targeting Brandon? I mean, he can't have very much money, can he?

C (40:48)

No, not at all. I'm just theorizing. But I bet that because Brandon was never charged criminally, the parents of the victims feel that this is the best way to win some measure of justice in their eyes, to sort of hold Brandon accountable in some way in civil court.

B (41:04)

Okay, great. Well, thank you, Ryan.

C (41:06)

You're welcome.

B (41:08)

But let's not assume that Brandon will be found liable in the civil suit. Because remember, while many people blame Brandon for these suicides, many people don't. And that's in part because, well, Brandon wasn't the only shady character in Kirksville. In fact, there was another man who at the time of these deaths, was right in the thick of things. This guy is actually the father of one of the victims. And some people had some pretty gnarly things to say about him. And so Ryan and I set out to talk to him. That's next time on the Peacemaker. The Peacemaker is a production of Cool Fire Studios and iHeart Podcast. It's hosted by me, Ben Westoff and Ryan Krull. Our executive producers are Jeff Keen, David Johnson and Steve Lubert. Music and audio engineering by Brent Johnson. Executive producers for iHeart podcasts are Katrina Norvell and Nikki Etor. If you or someone you know is having suicidal thoughts, there are resources available to you. Please call the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline 988.

D (42:31)

Amazon Five Star Theater presents Real Customer Reviews performed by Ed Helms. Tonight's review Tactical Jacket. I was living a simple life.

B (42:42)

Didn't get out much.

D (42:44)

Then I bought this jacket and everything changed. Women came flocking to me from lands domestic and foreign. On the 245 day sailboat voyage home, I was attacked by a shark.

B (43:00)

I knew it was the jacket he.

D (43:01)

Was after, giving up the jacket in exchange for my life. 5 stars Amazon Customer 69 Shop the perfect gift this holiday on Amazon.

B (43:14)

Janice Torres here and I'm Austin Hankwitz. We host the podcast Mind the Business Small Business Success Stories produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Intuit QuickBooks.

A (43:23)

We're back for season four to talk to some incredible small business owners.

B (43:27)

The big thing about working at tech is that it's ever evolving, ever changing. Everyone's a rookie. That's how fast the industry is changing. So what I'm really excited about is.

D (43:34)

To be part of that change.

B (43:35)

So listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts, you know what a girl's best friend is not diamonds. Her lawyers.

D (43:46)

From executive producer Ryan Murphy comes a fiery new legal drama.

A (43:50)

It's our own boutique women representing women.

D (43:53)

You can't afford to miss.

A (43:56)

Make it rigged. Showtime, ladies.

B (43:59)

Stand up straight, then breeze into that.

A (44:02)

Room like a storm no one saw coming.

D (44:06)

Hulu Original Series All's Fair now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers terms apply.

A (44:12)

Black Friday is here and Pandora Jewelry is offering up to 40% off storewide and sitewide. Now through December 2nd. Explore jewelry designed to last beyond the season, from classic charms to modern rings, bracelets, earrings and more. Whether you're holiday shopping or treating yourself, now's the perfect time to find something Special. Shop@pandora.net or your local Pandora store. Exclusions apply. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.