← The Person Who Believed In Me
The Person Who Believed In Me
Hollywood’s Most POWERFUL Woman on Overcoming Self-Doubt | Sherry Lansing
01:48:09
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Sherry Lansing. What a don.
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I heard you were the best no in town.
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And if that's true, it's because I empathized.
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And the quintessential powerhouse in a power suit, Kevin Uvain, said she led with empathy, but you knew not to with her.
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Her name is Sherry Lansing.
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Do you remember anything that Dr. Hawes saw in you that you hadn't yet seen in yourself?
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He just kind of believed in me. The head of the studio left. They were going to make somebody else the head of the studio. I don't know what I'll do. And he said, why can't you be head of the studio? And I said to him, oh, there will never be a woman head of a studio. What are you thinking? That was the first time I ever thought about it. He changed my life. And without him, I would never have the life I had. Oh, my God, I'm going to cry. It's my husband, Billy.
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Academy Award winning director and the only
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person that offered me unconditional love. No one's going to remember me. They're going to remember the movies. The only thing that lasts forever is the movies. The best is movies not yet to come because I've lost the love of my life. But it's still damn great.
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I have been waiting to meet God.
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So excited to see you. I really am.
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In this podcast, we sit down with some of the world's most successful people who reveal a person that believed in them before the world did. The conversations are deep, raw and relatable. Special thanks to our friends at Canva for believing in us. Canva has a two part mission. Build one of the world's most valuable companies and then do the most good you can with it. They give their product free of charge to schools and nonprofits because they are on a mission to create equal opportunities that empower people all over the world. And finally, please like and subscribe this video. And if you're listening, please consider rating our podcast. I would like to begin the way we do with everyone else, like this.
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It's Dr. Hoffs. Much younger than when I started seeing him, but the same face and the same warmth. And you can tell just by looking at this picture what a kind and nonjudgmental man he is. And I'm so grateful to him. I get emotional looking at this picture because he's no longer alive. And he changed my life. And without him, I would never have the life I had and have today.
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How did he change your life?
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Well, I grew up with a loving mother and father, but I Grew up in a home where my mother was very critical out of kindness and out of wanting me to have a good life. And I grew up in an environment where a woman or a girl was not expected to work and was expected to get married and have two children. And from the time I was a child, all I wanted to do was work. And I didn't dream about getting married like the rest of my friends did. And so I'm afraid I grew up with a lack of self esteem. And as I started to go through life, I made choices based on shoulds rather than really what I wanted to be. And I remember getting married very young, 19, turning 20 years old, the end of my sophomore year in college, to a lovely man who should have been my first affair, my first love, whatever, because he's a very good person. And then getting divorced. And then I remember thinking, I'm going to make the same mistake again. I'm going to marry somebody who's just going to look different. So I thought out, I said, you say So I sought out therapy and I went to a doctor who was not a good psychiatrist, in my opinion, and in retrospect, I think an even worse psychiatrist than I thought at the time. Because he said to me, and I remember this clearly, when I'm done with you, you won't want to work, you'll just want to bake pies.
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What?
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That's exactly right. What is? I mean, it's shocking when I think about it, but I was young, I was like, yeah, that's the truth. And many other things like that, many other things that were equally disturbing. But when you're vulnerable like I was, and you're getting a divorce and you really don't have a career. I was teaching, but I wanted to be in the movie business. And you really don't have much going for you and you don't have any money and you're trying to find your way. I looked at him like, well, he must know something I don't know. So unfortunately, I stayed there with him, listening to the different things for a year and a half. And that's because I was 24 years old. And so it took every ounce of strength I had to finally stop. But when I stopped, nothing had really changed in me. And I was scared. And so I kept trying to work, I kept dating, and I kept thinking, I gotta figure out why I'm not doing well, why I'm not falling in love with the right people or person, whatever it is. And I went out on a date. This is a Long way of telling you how I met Dr. Oskar. I love it. Long way. And maybe it's too much information, but I don't know how to shorten it. I went out on a date. Someone fixed me up with a psychiatrist, of all things. And I remember thinking, well, this will be interesting because I'm going to hate this man because I didn't like the first guy that was a psychiatrist. But this was just a date. And after a couple of dates, he was just lovely. And I finally told him the story about this psychiatrist that I had gone to. And the look on his face was pretty much like the look on your face. He said, I am not allowed to say anything bad about this person, but you must go to a psychiatrist to correct this image of what analysis means. And he called right in my kitchen. It's a teeny little kitchen. I had no money. I was a substitute teacher trying to get acting jobs, trying to be in the movie business, not doing particularly well. And I went to see somebody who then referred me to Josh office. And I can remember when I walked into his office almost within the first hour, I knew it was different because. Because he wasn't judgmental, because he wasn't critical, because he wanted to help me to be the best me I could be. And so Josh Hoffs is responsible. I'm getting emotional talking about it, and I'm 81 years old now, and when I saw him, I was like probably 30, was responsible for believing in me to be the best me I could be, believing in me enough to let me grow into a person who had self esteem, who wasn't ruled by shoulds, who. Who knew what I wanted to do. And I don't know how to say it any better. I would never be who I am without him. I would never be happy. I would have never had a career. I would have never had the wonderful marriage and friends and just everything.
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So when my team told me that you wanted to talk about a therapist who was a person believed in you, I was a little confused because I was blessed and lucky enough to grow up in an era where that was how most all therapists treated people. And so I couldn't understand why it was so profound. And then I started listening to the book about you and I started to understand your mother's love for you, but her tough love for you. And I started to understand how you were very insecure and you talk about having a low self esteem. And so I want to understand even more because to me, of course, you walk into a room and a Therapist is non judgmental. But how does that. It's really profound what you're saying. How does that end up, that non judgmental zone, end up feeling like a belief in you?
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Well, it is a belief in you. It's a belief that you'll make the right decisions that you have inside of you. Dr. Hoffs once said to me, it's re parenting yourself. That analysis is reparenting yourself. And that's what it was. My mother was. She escaped from Nazi Germany. She only wanted the best for me.
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Margot.
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Margot. And she was wonderful. But she was very judgmental and very critical. And because she was happy as a wife and mother, she wanted that for me. And interestingly enough, my mother, I'm sure she believed in me. But my mother is my first role model and in a good way, because my mother was very contradictory and I think everybody is, but she was especially contradictory. Here's a woman who only wanted her daughter to get. She didn't care if I went to college, she didn't care if I got good grades. She just wanted me to dress nice, to be pretty, to get married, to join the country club, to have 2.2 children. Because that was the world that she grew up in. It was a different time. It really was a different time. But on the other hand, and this is why it's so contradictory and why therapy helped me so much, my mother was also, as I said, my first role model. Now what does that mean? My father died when I was nine years old. My mother was 32 years old. She had sold dresses at Marshall Fields, so she did not have a career. She was raising my sister Judy and me. And I remember this so vividly, I can't tell you that. A few days after my mother died, my father had been in real estate and he owned buildings. And two men came into his office, which was in a room pretty much like this. It was in his case, it was in the basement and he had all these big ledgers there of the. I mean, he was nicely successful, I don't want to exaggerate, but he owned buildings and they had people paid rent and that's how we lived. And these two men came in and they looked at my 32 year old mother who had two children to raise, and they said, margo, don't worry, we'll take over the business and we'll take care of you. And she looked at them and I heard this. I was hiding in the staircase listening because it was like, who are these men that are coming in? And she said, no, you Won't. You will teach me how to run the business and I will take care of my children.
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The woman you just said who wanted to be at home and belong to the country club.
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That's right.
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Said that.
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Said that. So she's very contradictory. So think about that. Yeah. So then she did, and she was extremely successful in running the business. And I would go with her. She was my first role model.
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But she didn't want that for you.
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No. Because I'll tell you what happened. And again, I think it's the time, if she was alive today, had young children. You have to go back. I mean, you have to go back to a woman who escaped from Nazi Germany, who had terrible scars from that, who probably wanted a secure life, a safe life, didn't want to take risks, which I understand, but who also had a great joy of life. I mean, a great joy of life. I mean, I love my mother so much. I can't tell you so. And one of the things that you get through analysis is you let go of any anger you had and you realize that the person was doing the best they could and you love them even more, as I do about both of my fathers. Because what then what happened? And I say both of my fathers. I adored my father, who died when I was 9. But then my mother remarried when I was 12, and she married Norton Lansing, who was a very successful businessman, and she quit. Quit, Sold everything. Or he took it over. He was in furniture manufacturing. But she never wanted to work again. So that was saying, no, no, we only do this if we have to. We don't do it for pleasure. Whereas for me, work is pleasure.
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So then the woman who becomes Sherry Lansing, where do you think that drive you had to get to, where you did came from? Because it didn't come from your mother.
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I'm not sure genetically that it was.
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Could it have been your dad?
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Well, my dad was. My dad just adored me. I mean, my dad had a heart condition. He'd be alive today if, you know, now they put stents in, they do bypasses. None of that existed. He'd be alive today, but unfortunately, he died at 42. Right. And my. All I remember is that my father adored me, which is, I think, how I learned to survive. You know, you have a critical mother, but a father that adored you. But I think my mother had great resilience. Look at what she did. So drive. You can have great ambition, which I think you're maybe born with or something, but if you don't have resilience, you can't make it. Because if you say to me, what are the key traits that somebody who's successful has? I don't know anyone who's successful who hasn't had equal amount of failures as success, maybe more failures, but you learn from those failures and you pick yourself up and you move forward. So my mother's. Look at my mother. 32 years old, and she raises us, my two sisters and then Mary's. And her life was built on resilience. But what analysis teaches you or what Dr. Hoffs teaches me. I mean, just looking at his picture, I hope I can take this, because I'd like to keep it.
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Well, wait, I have.
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You have more?
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I have another one I want you to.
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Oh, wow. Oh, my God. He did not look like. I mean, he's very handsome.
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Very handsome.
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Yeah, he was very attractive. I can't tell you that's what I thought of when I was talking to him. But therapy of any kind, whether it's analysis, whether it's going to a psychologist or even talking to your clergyman or Rabb, whatever is allowing you to dig deep into your own feelings and not to be ashamed to talk about them. Not to be ashamed to say, I want a career. You know, I don't think I want children to say that. When I was growing up, I mean, I thought they'd institutionalize me, saying.
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But that's what I want to draw down on. You're talking about the. This is the 1970s.
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Yeah.
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At a time when therapy was thought to be for mentally ill people.
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That's correct.
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So, Sherry Lansing, the question I have that I've been wanting to ask you is, how did you get past that stigma? You were being an insecure person, which you talk openly about. How did you not worry what other people would think of you going to therapy? Did you just not tell anyone?
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That's a great question. I just think I knew I wanted help.
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Did you tell your mom you went to therapy?
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Yes.
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And what did she say?
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Was appalled. Didn't want to talk about it. Was appalled. And I actually had to work, like, three or four jobs to pay for it. And I asked my father and mother for a loan, and they wouldn't give it to me. They said, come home. You'll be fine. You know, it's because you're in Hollywood. These crazy people, you know, come home. I don't think I kept it a secret from people I was close to. I think the people that I was close to were introspective and maybe analytical and didn't think it Was crazy.
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Where had you heard about therapy being beneficial? You're in your early 30s.
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From my friends.
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From your friends.
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From a very good friend of mine, a man named Ray Wagner was in therapy and I thought he was wonderful. I thought he was so open. He hugged everybody. And I didn't get hugs from my mother. And I hug everybody now. And I hugged him because I never got hugs from my mother. You know, it was hard for my mother to say, I love you. Do you know it was hard for her to be physical. This is not her fault. It's the way she was raised. I really. It's so important to me that you understand how much I loved her and she did the best she could. But I'm telling you, in every meeting I get up, when we met, I got up and I gave you a hug. That's the way I greet people because I wanted it so badly. And I remember this man, and he was in therapy and. And I remember talking to him about it. And of course I had that very bad first experience. So it took me another four or five years till I met Josh. It's really important to me that we destigmatize any association with going to therapy because especially when I look at what's happening with kids today, you know, and the mental health problems that they have. I think it should be a course in school.
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What belief about yourself took the longest to unlearn?
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That I shouldn't be ashamed of my ambition.
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That's good.
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I think that was probably it. I didn't like the way I looked. I was extremely insecure about that, you
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know, so what, may I ask what you didn't like? Because people talk about you as being so attractive.
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I have no idea. I mean, I had no self confidence in my physical looks whatsoever. I mean, there are times I wanted to cover all the mirrors. It doesn't make any difference what anybody else thinks. It's what you think. Unlearning that I probably have never done. I mean, I probably. I was the tallest kid in the class. They called me clausier up there. I was at the time. I'd give anything if this was true today because it's not too skinny. So they called me sticks and bones. I'd give anything for that today. And it's very interesting because I'm probably 10 pounds overweight.
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B
But are you still insecure?
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Of course. But here's the thing. When I finished analysis, I remember saying to Dr. Hoffs, this is it. This is it. I still get depressed. I still have days when I go oh, my God. I can't walk out of the house. But I have the tools to overcome it and to know it's my problem and to go forward. So anybody who tells you that they're not insecure, or anybody who tells you that they don't have fear or that they don't walk into some rooms terrified, I was nervous to do this. I'm not now, because you're so warm and easy to talk to. But I was. I remember last night going, oh, should I do this? What am I going to say? You know, it's normal. But you learn that a. It's normal. You don't have to be ashamed of it. You don't have to be ashamed to be vulnerable. You don't have to be ashamed to be insecure. You don't have to be ashamed to not be the smartest person in the room.
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B
So here's what I want the audience to understand. In this moment, I have no ability to relate to you based on how you became Sherry Lansing.
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Nobody comes in fully formed. You know, you see someone walk in with confidence. They weren't born like that.
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B
Right, right.
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They learned it. I mean, some people are blessed with incredibly loving parents, and some people overcome parents that are in prison, you know, are crack addicts, and they become very successful. So a lot of it is getting help and admitting it. The other thing that I want to say, that analysis or therapy or a priest or a rabbi, because I'm not saying it has to be that, or if you're lucky enough to have a friend that likes to listen to you, you know, two hours a day, which I think most people would get sick of. There are no secrets. Oh, what do you mean? Well, one of the things that I think we all say is, I did this really bad thing, you know, I can't tell you what it is. I'm not keeping it from you. Nothing comes to my mind. But I remember saying, you know, I didn't tell the truth here, or I did this, or, I mean, nothing serious. I don't want to make it. But you learn there are no secrets. Do you know? I mean, you learn that who you are is okay. You know, I was angry at this person. I said mean things or. Okay, fine, you were angry. You apologized, it's over.
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B
Does that mean we share everything? What do you mean, there are no secrets?
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No. You have the right. No, of course you don't share everything. It's your life.
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B
Right.
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And you don't need to overshare. But I think. I think what I'm trying to say is that there's nothing to be ashamed of.
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B
I need to take a moment just to thank Canva for backing this podcast. Their support is what makes these conversations possible. Canva is guided by a clear idea. Build something incredibly valuable and then use it to do real good in the world. That's why they provide their tools free of charge to schools and nonprofits, helping to create equal access and opportunity for people all over the world. Do you remember or RECALL Anything that Dr. Hawes saw in you that you hadn't yet seen in yourself?
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A
He just kind of believed in me. So there was this key moment with Dr. Hoffs that I remember clearly, and it obviously affected my life. We didn't talk a lot about work because mostly we talked, and then eventually we did.
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B
At this point, you weren't Sherry Lansing. You were just an aspiring actress.
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A
I was a substitute teacher. And now by then, I was probably reading scripts for $5 an hour from independent producer. I think I had realized that acting wasn't for me. I was extremely uncomfortable being an actress. I didn't like being anybody other than myself, and I was terrible at it. But I got very interested in what was going on on a movie set because I was fortunate to be cast.
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B
Why were you so terrible at being an actress?
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A
I can't be anybody other than myself. I have a Chicago accent.
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B
They wanted me to talk like this,
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and I just hated being something other than myself. And that was the good news. I mean, I have the most respect for actors and actresses because they can be sitting here having a conversation and someone says, it's time now, and they burst into tears. And I'm going, how'd they do that? And so I had the greatest respect for them.
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B
So you were saying that pivotal moment
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with Dr. Hoffs, the pivotal moment with Dr. Hoffs in terms of a career was the head of the studio. This was what when I was at Columbia. So it was several years into my career, and I was doing okay and happy and really thought, if I never, ever do any more than this, it's wonderful. I'm really happy. So I didn't have a master plan. I never said, I want to be the head of a studio because actually said, I will never be a woman head of a studio in my lifetime. I actually said that, and I believed it. So what happened is that the head of the studio left and they were going to make somebody else the head of the studio. And it was between me and another person. And I said to Dr. Hoffs, you know, Dr. Hoffs, I'm really nervous about this because if they make this X person in the head, I don't want to report to this person. It will be difficult, blah, blah blah, but I don't know what I'll do. And he said, why can't you do it? Why can't you be the head of the studio? And I said to him, oh, there will never be a woman head of a studio. What are you thinking? And he said, I don't know why you can't do it. That was the first time I ever thought about it. Literally first time I ever thought about it. And I didn't get the job. I didn't get it. And I learned how to adjust. And I think it was probably.
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B
How did it feel when he said that to you?
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A
Well, initially he didn't understand the business, that I could never be it. And then it stuck because by then I was starting to believe in myself. By then I was starting to develop self esteem. By then I was starting to open my mouth up in meetings and not even be angry. I mean, there's a famous meeting that was very formative in my life and there were like, you know, six men in the room and I was the only woman. And you were trying to fix a movie. And I gave a suggestion and the producer kind of ignored me. Like, yeah, yeah. And then they went around the room and like the fourth man there said exactly what I said. And he went, that's brilliant. And I looked at it and I went, that is exactly what I said. But I didn't say anything because I think if I said anything I probably would have been fired. But you know, you're questioning the producer. So I learned where to pick my battles. I wanna be clear about that, which is very important. You can't fight all the time, you know, and the world is different now. This doesn't happen anymore. It really doesn't.
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B
I mean, but picking your battles is still a good lesson.
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A
Absolutely, 100%. So I learned to pick my battles and I started to go, well, I was right, so he didn't hear me. And so this person is getting the credit. But you know, it's okay. Cause now the movie will be better, which is really all I really cared about.
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B
So am I understanding you to say that therapy may have helped you to be the great executive that you were?
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A
100%. And I can tell you so many reasons, number one, where to pick your battles. But that's really not the most important, to not be intimidated by anybody because you understand them.
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B
Oh, dive in on that.
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A
Well, so Someone yells a lot and you think. But really, it's just a style, you know, and you start to learn that it's probably based on a lot of insecurity and that they're, you know, maybe yelling because they're insecure, because they had a tough mother or whatever it is. You start to understand people. And if you understand anyone, you can't hate them because you'll understand.
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B
Say it again, because that's so important.
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A
If you understand anyone, you can't hate them because you understand the complexities of what made them.
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B
That's it.
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A
And so for me, that was the key to being a good executive. So when people would come in to pitch a story, I felt their pain when I was saying no, because I'd actually been on that side of the desk, too. But I knew how much it meant to them to get the movie done. So I hope I was never cruel.
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B
I heard you were the best no in town.
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A
Well, that's very kind. And if that's true, it's because I empathized because I had tried to get movies made. I had been a producer before I was an executive. Well, both. I went first as a producer, then as an executive, then as a producer again, and then to Paramount, you know, as an executive for quite a while, I felt her paid. And also, I didn't know if I was right or wrong. I mean, I used to always say to people when I passed, look, this doesn't work for me, but when it becomes a big hit, you can tell everybody what an idiot I was for passing on it. You can tell anybody anything you want. It's fine.
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B
Gwyneth Paltrow said about you, Sherry Lansing changed what power looked like in this business. Reese Witherspoon said, there was only one woman running a major studio when I started out, and that was Sherry Lansing. Jennifer Aniston called you a trailblazer and said you remained one of the kindest and most generous people.
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A
Makes me feel good.
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B
She knew.
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A
Well, that makes me feel very good. I didn't know she said that, but
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B
Kevin Uvain said she led with empathy, but you knew not to with her. And then he said, she always worked really well with really difficult men because I understood them.
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A
I mean, that's the gift of therapy. That was one of the gifts. They didn't intimidate me. A lot of these really difficult men were what I would call mush faces. Underneath, they were really kind. They loved their wives, they loved their kids. Not all of them, but a lot of them. And it was a style in order to get consensus, in order to not compromise what you want, you have to be able to understand the other person's point of view. You. In order to get under it and change it. And if you just dismiss it, then you get nowhere. You have to be able to talk to people who disagree with you, and you have to be able to. When you're doing a movie, it is a collaborative process. You can't just say, do it my way. That doesn't work. I find difficult men and difficult women, because there's a lot of difficult women too. Interesting. I mean, they're interesting people and they have strong beliefs. And you have to be able to understand their belief system and not be intimidated or frightened by it.
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B
I want to talk about one of the men you said is someone who perhaps was the best to you.
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A
Oh, my God, I'm going to cry. It's my husband, Billy. So. Oh, boy. It's funny how you don't believe these emotions are going to come up at this time in your life from, oh, he looks so cute.
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B
So my husband, Academy Award winning director.
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A
Yes, but. But the kindest person in the world, the most brilliant person, a true genius, and the only person in my life that offered me unconditional love.
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B
In what way?
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A
Which is the greatest gift anyone could give you. He loved me no matter what I did. And if you had asked, who was the person that most believed in you after I was successful, because, you know, success, it's hard to sustain it.
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B
Sure.
- [30:18]
A
And successful people all fear the loss of it. They fear, you know, you're one movie away from, you know, being a failure again, you know, whatever. I didn't meet Billy until I was 47. So I had been divorced from the time I was 26 to 47. And I had met, you know, many men. I was single. It was the women's movement. We were, you know, allowed to sleep with people and not marry them. We were allowed to get up and go home, whatever. And I'm not telling you that I didn't love anybody else because of course I did. I had good relationships. But he's the only person I ever wanted to marry because he's the only person that gave me unconditional love. When I was 30 years old, I went to the National Theater in Westwood to see a movie called the Sorcerer. And I went with my best friend at the time, Martha Luttrell. We were both probably working for $5 an hour doing. She was an agent, but, you know, we were making no money. And I thought the Sorcerer was the Greatest film I'd ever seen in my life. I thought you could feel the sweat on the people. And I wanted to make a movie like that, and that was my dream. And it was directed by William friedkin. So I'm 30 years old. I think William Friedkin must be at least 20 years older than me, because why should I be working for $5 an hour? And I didn't really study him. I mean, that's my fault that I didn't study directors. But I guess I was just trying to survive in my job and didn't really think about it until when I was 47, a friend of mine, we gave an Academy Award party and he was sitting next to a girlfriend of mine who was married. And she said, oh, Sherry, you know Billy Friedkin. And my mouth fell open. It was like I had Tourette's. And I said, you can't be Billy Friedkin. You're much too young and you're much too cute. And he said, you can't be Sherry Lansing. You're much too young and you're much too cute. Beautiful, I think, was actually the word he used. And we got married three months later. Now, I had.
- [32:26]
B
That had been a long time.
- [32:28]
A
That's exactly.
- [32:28]
B
You fell in love with him before you knew him.
- [32:30]
A
Well, I was in love with his talent, for sure.
- [32:33]
B
Exactly.
- [32:34]
A
But I didn't marry him for his talent. Sure. I married him for his soul, of course. So, Billy. Well, first of all, I just have to brag on him. He was a genius. He was self educated, he read more books, knew everything about music. He was the smartest person and also the funniest person, and also the maverick of all mavericks, and had a no edit button and would say anything that came to his mind. And sometimes I go, how could you have said that? How could you have said that? Because I'm like the good girl, you know, like, I don't say those things.
- [33:03]
B
Margo's daughter.
- [33:04]
A
Yeah, Margo's daughter. But I loved it. I mean, secretly, I loved it. And what? He's the only man that didn't try and change me, that didn't say. I remember saying to him, I don't like to cook. He said, who asked you to? And every other man said, well, at least make dinner once in a while. Who asked you to? And I said, and I really want to keep working. Great. And every time I would be with somebody, if they were in the business or not in the business, and I'd be working late and I would say, I can't come to dinner. Because I'm working late, I can't do this, I'm working late. They would get angry. Billy would say, of course, honey, just stay as long as you need to. He was not threatened at all. He liked smart women. He was not threatened by my success. I think he thought it was amusing. I mean, he didn't care one way or the other. You run a studio, you don't run a studio. So what does it mean when someone gives you unconditional love? It means that no matter what you do, they will love you. And that, that's like unheard of almost. It means that you have a soft landing. I was never afraid of getting fired because he'd be there, he wouldn't have cared. It means that they're always on your side. They may not agree with you, but they're always going to be there to hold you. They're always going to be there to pick you up. You know, my girlfriend Martha and I used to have an expression when we were dating and we would always call each other the next day. How was that date? How was this date? And there was an expression we used, he won't be there for the chemo, meaning he won't be there when it gets tough. Billy would have been there every day and he was. I mean I fortunately haven't had that experience yet, but he. I say yet and I hope never,
- [34:56]
B
but, but Billy died in 2000.
- [34:59]
A
He died two and a half years ago and, and it's strange to say this, he had an extraordinary life and he was 88 when he died and he had just done a movie which is great, the K. Mutiny Court martial trial and got great acclaim. He did not live to see it, but he had a full life and there was nothing that he was missing on his bucket list.
- [35:28]
B
If he were here today, what would he say about why he loved you so much?
- [35:34]
A
I honestly can't answer that. I don't know.
- [35:38]
B
You didn't hear him say to people,
- [35:39]
A
oh, he would always say my wife. Oh, of course, but I mean, I don't want. I mean of course I would say, but in private conversations, I was the goodest person he knew. He thought I had, was very attracted to me and.
- [35:52]
B
Yeah, but think about, there must have been a moment in your decades long marriage.
- [35:55]
A
He said it to me every day, I love you. He had my baby pictures around the house and used to call me lump head because you know, when you're a kid they put a little lump on top of your head, the picture thing. And he would say, look at the lump look what the lump did. You know, Billy loved everything about me. I was very secure. He gave me what my parents didn't give me. He loved everything about me. I know this. I mean, I never lived in fear. I never thought he was going to cheat on me. I mean, I never thought that he was going to leave me. He literally. I mean, I did not give him unconditional love. I would say, why are you wearing that shirt? You should change that shirt. It doesn't look good. I mean, stupid things, you know. But he never said that. You know, he always thought, oh, honey, you look so beautiful, you know, oh, don't touch your face. Don't do any cosmetic work. You look great.
- [36:49]
B
How old were you when you met him?
- [36:51]
A
47.
- [36:52]
B
Would it have worked if you met him at 27?
- [36:53]
A
No.
- [36:54]
B
Why?
- [36:54]
A
Because I wouldn't have been ready. I wouldn't have been ready. And he would always say to me, I wish I'd have met you earlier. I wouldn't have made the mistakes I made. I said, no, we would have had an affair and we would have broken up.
- [37:05]
B
Bingo. Bingo.
- [37:06]
A
And when I married Billy, I was done with therapy And I called Dr. Hoffs to tell him that I got married. And he knew him.
- [37:16]
B
He knew him.
- [37:17]
A
He did, because Billy knew Dr. Hoff's wife. This is the thing that I found out later and it was just so interesting to me and fits perfectly. Dr. Hough's wife was a director. She directed a producer of a film called Stony island and others. And his daughter, Dr. Hough's daughter is Susannah Hoffs, who's a bangle. And I remember coming in one day and I said, you, daughter's a bangle. You know, I never knew that, but it just made sense that he would raise a creative, free spirited soul like she is. And I don't know her well, but I know she's all those things. And she's married to Jay Rochel with Meyer. And Billy had met them. And when I called Dr. Hoffs and said, I just want you to know I got married, he said, I know him, it's perfect. That is what he said. I remember that.
- [38:04]
B
I'm going to show you these movie posters and I want you to tell me the first thing that comes to mind, right? So imagine the role you were in at the time it came out and just tell me the first thing that comes to mind. Indecent Proposal.
- [38:21]
A
I was a producer who became the head of the studio. The first thing that comes to my mind was, I loved the one line, would you Sleep for a man for a million dollars.
- [38:33]
B
Titanic.
- [38:34]
A
Oh, my God, one of the most romantic movies. And James Cameron's a genius. And there's Leo and Kate, and it was a privilege to be part of that. Forrest Gump. Oh, I saw that movie probably 30 times, and every single time I saw it, I cried at the same place.
- [38:55]
B
And I remember which was.
- [38:56]
A
Was when they're sitting, when she shows him the little boy and he's normal when Robin Wright chose him. And I cried. And I remember Ethan Bobcimec, he said, again, you're crying. I said, I don't know, it just gets to me. I never got bored of seeing it. I just think it's an extraordinary film. And I remember I'm blessed. Billy had two children from previous marriages. And I remember when my younger son, who was Jack, came home from. It was a week on, a week off, and he came home and he says, hello, I'm Gump, Forrest Gump. And he was like doing the Invitation, and he knew the picture was gonna be a hit. There's nothing better when you've given your life to a movie, which you do, and they're successful, and you see there.
- [39:42]
B
Amen. Fatal Attraction.
- [39:45]
A
Well, I won't be ignored, Dan. You know, I mean, it was something that I loved. It was. And I remember Adrian Line and Samantha and I going to the Hamburger Hamlet in Westwood and sitting in the booth watching the lines form for about three and a half months, you know, and then going in the back of the theater in the projection booth and watching the audience reaction. I have a thousand things that come to my mind with that. I, you know, really identified with a woman who lost her self esteem because the guy left her. And that happens to so many people, you know, where you're in a relationship and she wasn't in a relationship, but he didn't, you know, follow through, whatever, and the man or the woman leaves and the other person can't recover, you know, because it's like they took you with them. They took everything. You are Saving Private Ryan, a masterpiece. I mean, just a master masterpiece, A true masterpiece. I remember seeing it the first time and, you know, you're supposed to give notes and I didn't have one note. Just a masterpiece.
- [41:03]
B
Wow.
- [41:03]
A
And then I remember taking myself.
- [41:05]
B
What did Steven Spielberg say to that?
- [41:07]
A
He wasn't in the screening. Keep he. Steven Spielberg is a genius, one of the most talented filmmakers who's ever lived. And he's not here, so I can't say that, but I think was as nervous about screening it for us, as if he'd never made a movie because he cares that much. So that's like the things that people don't know.
- [41:30]
B
Take me into a moment. You're Sherry Lansing. You're the head of the studio. It all hinges on whether you say yes or whether you say no. How do you make people feel at ease in the presence of someone who is seemingly so intimidating?
- [41:46]
A
Who's the intimidating ones?
- [41:47]
B
You. You have the role.
- [41:49]
A
Yeah, but I never think of myself that way. And let me just.
- [41:52]
B
Men must have said, did anyone ever say to you, oh, wow, I'm very intimidating? No, really.
- [41:56]
A
Maybe they were. Here's the thing that you have to understand. When you're running a studio, you are begging for talent to do movies with you that you want to do. You have to understand. Fatal Attraction Brother was turned down by probably 20 actresses before Glenn Close got the part and then turned down by every studio twice. Now, that was me as a producer. Now let's go to First Wives Club. No one wanted to do it, and we had a. A thing of partnering movies. No one wanted to partner. It was, you know, no one thought it was going to do anything. So to me, being a studio head is not where the power is. The power is with the talent. The power is with Steven Spielberg getting him to say yes. The power is with Michael Douglas getting him to say yes. The power is with Timothee Chalamet today, getting him to say yes to your movie. And they're the ones that have the power. The studio executive, in my opinion, and I haven't done it for 20 years, but in my opinion, is trying desperately to get movies that they care about made. You greenlight it, fine, but that doesn't mean that you have the elements to make it. You want a certain director, you want a certain cast. So to me, the only power is with talent. And I say this, it's funny. They're running the Sorcerer at the Arrow Theater tonight, and about four people sent it to me, and they'd run it. The cinema tech had run it at the Egyptian Theater, and it was all sold out. And I know how happy Billy would have been about that. But that's the only thing that lives forever. No one's going to remember me. I was a studio executive. Ten years from now, they're going to remember the movies. The only thing that lasts forever is the movies. The movies, the music, the book. No one remembers the executives. And I'm not saying that they don't have something to do with it. I admire everyone who's Doing the job or who did the job. And God knows we've read books about the original people, the Thalbergs of life, but it's the talent.
- [44:05]
B
Clueless.
- [44:06]
A
I love Clueless. Clueless was just fun. And I remember getting the script from Scott Rudin, I believe, and just loving it. And it was total joy. We didn't have any problems making it one of those movies that was just pleasant. And you know what's interesting is with Clueless, those movies are among some of my favorites. I mean, the movies that were made for young girls, as we call them, honest to God, you know, I was lucky that I could identify with those movies. I mean, I could identify with Clueless, Saving the Last Dance, Mean Girls. Those are some of my favorite movies I was ever associated with. And even though your next character I can see is Braveheart, which is a total masterpiece, and what a joy it was to work with Mel Gibson. He was so gifted, so talented and so open to criticism. I mean, so open. I mean, so he was just a joy. But people don't put Braveheart in the same category as Mean Girls, but in fact, each of them are perfect for what they're supposed to do.
- [45:12]
B
For people who don't know, there may be some watching this who don't understand the movie business. So they may think, well, you were the head of the studio, so you were the one making all the decision, how does it work? Does the studio do the movie? Then you go find a director to put on it. Like people who don't know tell us
- [45:26]
A
each one is different. We as a studio developed a lot of movies. Sometimes the idea would come from us, or a producer or a director would bring in the idea and they do the first draft of the script and we give notes and the second, sometimes the 10th draft, whatever it took. And so those movies were true collaborations. And then I would say to them, okay, I will make this movie with this list of actors, this list of actresses, or this director, unless there was a director already attached. So that would be an in house development, which I think they're not doing as much of anymore. That's what I hear, but I'm not sure. But we did a lot of that. And then there are other movies like Braveheart where Mel Gibson comes in with a script and says, I want to do this, you know, and it was a partnership with 20th Century Fox and you got a script and he'll listen to your notes and listen to your ideas. But you were given a gift. I mean, I can tell you the story of Saving Private Ryan, which was the greatest gift I ever got. It had only happened once in my whole life, career. We had three scripts that dealt with the war and I had said, I like all three of them, so let's see which one comes together first. And usually in order to get Mel Gibson or in order to get Steven Spielberg, or in order to get Tom Cruise, you go to meet with them. They have the power. You don't. You are begging them to say yes. Only once in my entire career did this happen. I'll never forget it. I'm driving home from work and it's seven o' clock on a Friday night and a wonderful agent named Richard Lovett, who was the head of caa, calls me up.
- [47:19]
B
I can't wait to call him and tell him that you sat for this podcast.
- [47:22]
A
I just, I adore him. And so he's one of my favorite people in the whole world. And so I get a call. Hi, Cher. And I said, hi. He said, how would you feel about Tom Hanks and Steven Spielberg doing Saving Private Ryan? And I thought to myself, how would I feel? I said, I feel great. I mean, great. He said, okay, I think it'll happen. And I thought, Richard doesn't do drugs. But he must have done something. I mean, what is he talking about? It's Friday night at seven o'. Clock. I mean, what is he talking about? I didn't bake, I didn't meet with either of them. What is he talking about? We had the script. And so then what happened is I pulled into the house and John Dolgen, my partner's on the phone. Did you get that call from Richard Lovett? And I said, yeah. He said, is he nuts? I said, I don't know. Cause no months of begging, no months of trying to get them to do it. And it was true. He had given them the script and they had said yes. And so it was a co production with Dreamworks and we did the coin. To us, who is domestic, who is foreign, that was the gift. That was a gift that only happened once in my entire career. I mean, Fatal Attraction you put down. I mean, it took us six years to get it made. Forrest Gump was in development for probably a decade.
- [48:36]
B
Wow.
- [48:36]
A
Yes. No one wanted to make it to us.
- [48:39]
B
They now seem so obvious because of how they did.
- [48:42]
A
No, but think about it. A guy sitting on the bench, you know, who's challenged, you know, I mean, these are not. And Mel Gibson and the kilt. I mean, come on, that's not obvious, you know, I mean, it's A masterpiece because of the quality. But they're not obvious movies.
- [48:56]
B
What makes a great actor?
- [48:58]
A
Somebody who makes you believe number one, you know, is a great actor and who doesn't look like they're acting, looks like it's natural. They are that person. I mean, you know, we're all talking about Marty Supreme. I believe if I met Timothee Chalamet, who I never have, that he's that guy. He isn't that guy. I mean, I'm sure he isn't, but you think he is, but then I thought he was Bob Dylan the last time I saw him. Yeah.
- [49:22]
B
What makes a great director?
- [49:23]
A
Director. If someone said to me, you have to direct for one day or sell shoes for the rest of your life, I'd sell shoes. Because I couldn't do it. I mean, I simply couldn't do it. A director has to keep the whole film in their head and know everything. But I mean everything. Know that the script is good, know how to shoot it with the cinematographer. Know where the shot should be, what the lighting should be. The director has to get the best performances out of the actors so that they look like they're not acting. I mean, the director does everything. The director to me or everybody. It's a collaborative effort, so everybody contributes everything. But I'm in awe of directors. I understand.
- [50:13]
B
Was it your dream to be the head of Paramount?
- [50:16]
A
No, I never dreamt about being the head of a studio. I dreamt about producing. When I got the first job, which was to be the head of Fox, I actually turned it down twice. I didn't want to do it. I was in negotiations to be a producer at Fox and Alan Hirschfeld came to me and said, we'd like you to run the studio. I said, no, I don't want to do that. And then everyone involved in the studio kept calling me and calling me. And I actually had a clause that I could quit in a year and a half if I didn't like it. I really didn't want to do it. I wanted to produce. So I did it for three years. And I honestly couldn't wait to leave to produce. And then I produced for 12 and a half years with my partner, Stanley Jaffe. And it is still my favorite job.
- [51:01]
B
Because.
- [51:02]
A
Because you're on the set every day. Because you're involved with every single moment. I mean, that's the kind of producer that Stanley and I were. I mean, we got there, when the crew got there. We were on the set every day. We saw the dailies, we worked on every draft of the script. We were involved. It was like a child, you know? So, no, I didn't. And then Stanley left to run Golf and Western and Paramount was a division. And I told him I didn't want to run the studio. And so I kept producing. And Indecent Proposal was one of the movies. And then I got married. And Billy was a director, I was a producer, which meant that we were on opposite sides of the continent. Often he would go direct a movie and maybe he'd be in New York. And I was producing something in California. And the greatest gift, again, that I got with Billy is I inherited two of the most wonderful children in the entire world. Billy's two boys, Jack and Cedric, from his previous marriages. And I got a chance to be a mother, and I loved it.
- [52:22]
B
Did you want to be a mom?
- [52:24]
A
Not until I met Billy. And those two boys I could not love more than if they came out of my stomach. I mean, they have wonderful mothers, but I consider myself a wonderful mother to them as well.
- [52:38]
B
Speaking of mothers, would you tell the audience what Margo said when you got the job at Paramount? About a husband?
- [52:45]
A
No, it was when I got the job at Fox.
- [52:47]
B
Oh, Fox. Excuse me.
- [52:48]
A
My mother said to me, oh, my God, now no one will wanna marry you. That was what she said. But that was the world then, so. Please, she's wonderful.
- [52:57]
B
No, no, no.
- [52:58]
A
100%.
- [52:58]
B
Listen, you and I are storytellers.
- [53:00]
A
Yeah.
- [53:00]
B
And what Arthur Brooks said in that chair was it's not about having complicated relationships. It's about having complex relationships. And what you had with your mom
- [53:11]
A
was a complex relationship. And every relationship's complex. I think so. And now I had these two children and I loved being a mother. I loved coming home from dinner. I loved Billy's.
- [53:22]
B
How old were they when they came into your life?
- [53:24]
A
9 and 16.
- [53:26]
B
Oh, so they definitely feel like yours. Yeah.
- [53:28]
A
Oh, they are. You know, now they're 42 and 49. They're my children, but they have. Have wonderful mothers as well. And I get along with grandmothers. So Stanley had hired somebody, and for whatever the reason, it didn't work out. And he came to me after I had finished shooting Indecent Proposal and he said, I really want you to run the studio. And I went, I could be home for dinner. And I said to him, stanley, this is a good time for me to do this because I'm. I'd never been married. I'd never been married with children. I wanted to be able to have a consistent life. Because if you're a studio Head. You work very hard. You work seven days a week, but you still are. You travel, but you're still based in a city. You're not on location for four months. And I said, let me talk to Billy. Let me think about it. Billy's attitude was, I don't care. Do it. Don't do it. Do what makes you happy. You know, I don't care one way or the other. And I took the job. And I said to him, I don't want any dinner meetings. I want to be home for dinner. I'll work late. I'll work seven days a week, but I'm not going to have this social life in the evening like a lot of executives do. And Stanley said, who asked you to do that? Just make good movies. And 13 years later, I left for this wonderful new chapter that I have, which is a philanthropist, Whatever.
- [54:56]
B
Do you think you would have gotten the job had you always wanted it and dreamed of it and worked for it?
- [55:02]
A
I don't think that would have been held against me.
- [55:04]
B
No, I know, but I'm just. I'm asking from a social science perspective. Like, some people want something so bad and they're so passionate, and they work so hard, and they don't get it. And then you see other people like you who are wildly successful but are like, yeah, but I didn't go, like, begging for it. Like, it just came upon me, and I said yes.
- [55:21]
A
So let me see. Let me respond to that in two ways. It's a great question, actually. So I loved producing. All I cared about was the movies. That's all I cared about. I didn't care about anything else. And so when I took the job, I thought of myself as an executive producer on every movie that we made. I read every draft of the script. I looked at every day of dailies. I only got to go to the set once, and once I heard them say, oh, here come the suits. And I thought I would kill myself. But it's like I. I only cared about the movies. That was all I cared about. But I have always believed, and I think this is really important, that you have to respect the process. By that I mean, please don't say. Like, sometimes I would interview people and they would say. I'd say, you know, they were young kids and, you know, you. They wanted to be interns or whatever. And I say, well, what do you want to do? And they'd say, well, I want to run the studio. And I'd go, but you're 20 years old. What do you want to do? Next. And so I think the biggest mistake that people make is not enjoying the journey. I loved every job I had. And when I was reading script for $5 an hour in an office that is not as big as this table, I loved it. I loved reading the scripts. And I thought, well, this is my life. I'll be okay. You know, so as long as you enjoy every step along the way, then usually the next step comes when you are skipping.
- [56:59]
B
Oh, that's interesting.
- [57:00]
A
That's big. Skipping all these steps to get to the finish line. You miss life. You miss life. It's the journey, this life.
- [57:11]
B
When you're enjoying the moment and enjoying the position you're in, you're saying the next good, great thing usually comes.
- [57:19]
A
Usually comes.
- [57:20]
B
I feel that.
- [57:21]
A
I think it usually comes. So, you know. No, I didn't ever dream of running a studio. I dreamed of producing movies. But I was very happy reading scripts. And then I was very happy working with the producer who was making the movie and being on the set. I wasn't happy being an actress.
- [57:39]
B
How does it feel to be the woman young women point to as the top of the mountain?
- [57:46]
A
I have no sense of this. You don't see yourself as other people see yourself.
- [57:50]
B
Sure, but you've heard them say it.
- [57:52]
A
Yeah, but you hear it. But I don't hear it. I don't hear it. I don't take it in. I'm sorry. I wish I did, actually. I'd probably be happier. But I don't take it in. I'm worried now. I have this 20 years of, you know, starting my own foundation. Right now I'm worried about, you know, please, dear God, let's find a cure for cancer. Please, dear God, let everybody have a good math and science teacher. These are areas I'm working in. Please, dear God, let's have gone safety. I don't take any of it in. I just don't hear it. I don't know why, but some people
- [58:25]
B
who have been where you were would say and have said, I feel a sense of responsibility to be whatever they feel. The sense of responsibility.
- [58:37]
A
I feel a sense of responsibility to be a good person, to be kind. I meet with anyone that asks me to for advice and help. I enjoy people. I actually love people. I have a very wonderful, you know, life is chapters. Okay. I mean, it's like. And this is one of things that Hoff said to me, also think of your life as a book. When I wanted to leave Paramount, I was done with therapy, but I went back to talk to him about it. And he said, well, think of your life as a book. What do you want your last chapter to be? And I went, I don't want to die at my desk. I want to try and get back to the world. He said, well, then do it.
- [59:17]
B
That lands with me. Wow, that's amazing. Okay, there are some questions here that I really want to get to because the team did a lot of really good research with me. And I want to ask them, what did therapy give you that success never could?
- [59:37]
A
Happiness. I mean, success gives you happiness. Therapy makes you feel comfortable in your own skin. Therapy makes you feel authentic. Therapy allows you to be your authentic self. Success is what is success. It's an external thing. It's people's perception of you. You know, success is ephemeral. Success is in someone else's eyes. I feel very good about my life because the other thing I didn't do is I didn't keep raising the bar. This is another thing that people do who are successful, which I don't understand. I don't have this gene where they run a studio and they are the head of the studio, and then there's the head of the corporation that owns the studio, and they want to be the head of the corporation. I'm going to. Why you got into it to make movies. Now you're just getting further away. So therapy gave me an ability to be comfortable in my own skin, to like myself, to be authentic and to be comfortable with who I am. And not to be greedy, not to be. Not to be envious, not to want, not to keep raising the bar. Just say, I'm happy.
- [60:56]
B
But that's so interesting because most anybody who's been where you have been was continually looking to climb.
- [61:03]
A
And I don't. When I got to a certain point and I remember, I won't say who it is, but I remember. I can remember the restaurant. I remember. And if John Dolce and we're alive, he'd pop right in and say, oh, God, you can't believe what she did. And I remember sitting with another executive who shall be nameless and does not have that gene. And he said he was going to leave if he didn't get. He was running the studio. If he didn't get television to report to him. I said, why do you want television to report to you? Don't you have enough to do making 15 movies a year? He said, no, I have to have that. And then when he got that, then he wanted to be the corporate guy or whatever it is. And it was a man and I thought, why? And when Mel Karmazon came into the company, they gave me all these other divisions, and I wouldn't take them. I said to John, I'm not taking this. Do you understand this? I do not want the theaters reporting to me. I just want to make movies.
- [62:00]
B
I think the fact that you weren't the most ambitious, hungry person in the room probably worked for you.
- [62:05]
A
Well, I wouldn't do the job. I mean, Mel Karpesine, when he sat in the meeting, he said, so, Sherry, the theaters report to you? I said, no, they don't. It's only on a Nordschart. They report to John. And John would say, I keep giving it to her, and she keeps throwing it away. I didn't want it.
- [62:17]
B
How do you know what a story is worth backing?
- [62:20]
A
Well, I always had a couple of things, People that you can root for. That doesn't mean they're good. Do you know, like you rooted for Tony Soprano, you know, it doesn't mean they're good people that you can root. Root for was something that I looked for in a script. And the second thing is it must evoke an emotional response, must make you laugh. It must make you cry. It must involve you. It's not a passive experience.
- [62:48]
B
Did you ever have a movie that you greenlit, that it didn't do that for you, but it did it for the rest of the people in the room?
- [62:57]
A
Yes, but I then didn't green light it.
- [63:00]
B
But what?
- [63:00]
A
But then I didn't greenlight it. But then you. Can you say what many. You know, I mean, I have to be honest. The bucks, the mistakes as well. There's many movies that did not work, that I was part of. Many. And I love them. I still love them. I mean, you know, it's kind of a benevolent dictatorship if you don't trust your own instincts. And if you're going. I listened to everything that everybody said, and if it. If they could change my mind, I would go. Then, of course, I would do it. If someone would say, but you didn't think of this. And I would go, okay. And then maybe I'd read it or maybe add another scene or adjust something that would make it. But I wanted to go down with my own failures. I didn't want to go down because I was doing a movie because somebody else believed in it, and I never believed in it. And then it failed. And it's my fault. I greenlit it. I'm the one that greenlit it, you know, so it was never the filmmaker's fault. It's Never the other executives. The buck stops here. You're the one that greenlit it. So tell me about a movie that
- [64:04]
B
became a big hit that initially you
- [64:06]
A
were like, I can tell you. Movies that no one thought would work that became hits.
- [64:10]
B
Okay. That you greenlit.
- [64:11]
A
Yeah.
- [64:12]
B
But the rest of the group was like, nope. And you said, I'm doing it.
- [64:14]
A
Yeah.
- [64:14]
B
All right.
- [64:14]
A
Yeah. So, I mean, so. And this first one, because it's funny, because it's not a big movie, but there was this little movie which I thought was very good by Betty Thomas. It's a little movie, but I remember the meeting because I would go around and I would ask. There were not green light committees. Now what they're at. The only person that greenlit the movie was the head of the studio. So it was my responsibility. But I would go around and I would ask the creative people, what did you think of the Brady Bunch script? What did you think? What'd you think? And they all hated it. And then I listened, and Betty Thomas was the director. And I said, well, there's, let's say, 10 of them. I said, so there's 10 nos. But there's one person who loved it, and it's me. So now don't we all love it? You know, because. Okay. So then they could all say, sherry's the only one that wanted to make it. And it turned out that one worked. But believe you me, there were plenty that didn't work.
- [65:06]
B
Was there a moment that you realized success no longer defined your worth?
- [65:12]
A
Right away. I mean. I mean, right away. The first time that I felt I was really successful was with Fatal Attraction, because it changed my life. It was a cultural phenomenon, and it had been a very personal thing to me. I had been going with a man, and one day he. One night he told me he loved me, and the next morning told me he wanted to not see me anymore. And so I went, oh, my God. You know, and I was depressed. And we got back together, but that's not the point. But the point is. And why he did is not the point. But it made me kind of obsessed with this Glenn Close story. You know, when James Dearden and I kind of worked on the script together, and he deserves all the credit. But I remember walking in Westwood with a friend of mine and saying, you know, I have no money, and if this movie doesn't work, they probably cancel out, and then I'll probably be homeless and I don't know what I'm going to do for the rest of my life and blah, blah, Blah. And I tripped on a curb. And he said, well, that's not a good sign. He's just a friend of mine. And I tripped on this curb. And I remember thinking, oh, God, my whole life's going to be over. And then, of course, it was this phenomenal success, and it meant that something that I had really believed in, because I. I passionately believed in the story, passionately that no one wanted to make. I mean, as I said, every studio turned it down twice, and no actress wanted to do. I mean, hate it. I hated it worked. And it also gave me financial security. And that changed everything, because, you know, it's not like I was rich, but. But by my value system, if I lived carefully, I would be okay. And if you're worrying about putting a roof over your head or putting food on the table, that has to affect your choices. And I respect that.
- [67:18]
B
You once said, the more power I got, the less I craved it.
- [67:22]
A
I never craved power. I never did. But we don't have power as executives or even as producers. We need to get. We need to get other people to help us do this. The people that have the power are the talent. And if you're a producer, you're part of the talent package. But I can't make Fatal Attraction without Adrian Lyon, who's truly a genius, and it would not be the movie without him. And I can't make Fatal Attraction without Michael Douglas, one of the greatest actors that ever lived, in my opinion, and Glenn Close, one of the greatest actresses. And Ann Archer. You have no idea how many people didn't want to do this movie. And I'll tell you the story about Glenn Close, please. Which you said, when did somebody change your mind? And I couldn't come up with a movie, but I can come up with instances.
- [68:08]
B
Got it.
- [68:08]
A
Okay. So they had this idea of the Glenn Close character. Okay? So now Fred Spector calls, and meanwhile, everyone's turning it down and says, I think Glenn would be great for the part. Now, Glenn had done the World According to Gar. Great actress, but kind of an earth mother, not a sex symbol at the time. You know, that was the part. And I said, oh, you know, Fred, she's a brilliant actress. I think the world of her, but she's completely wrong for the part. And so he said, okay. Next day, he calls, he said, you know, I've been thinking you're wrong. And he keeps going on and on about Glenn. I said, no, please. She's wrong. And I just have to tell you, we need somebody who's more Overtly sensuous, more overtly sexy, more overtly whatever. And I told Adrian and Stanley, and they both agreed no one wanted to see Glenn close. The next day he calls and he said, glenn would like to come in and read. Read for the part. This woman, I think, had been nominated for an Academy Award by then, but certainly was considered one of the great actresses. And I said, oh, please, we're not going to humiliate her like this. She's wrong for the part. The next couple of days, he calls again. She really wants to come in and read. And she's not going to feel humiliated if she doesn't get the part. She's an actress. That is what she does. And she only asked that she read with Michael Douglas. So what are you going to say? So I said, okay. So I said to Adrian, glenn wants to come in and read. He said, well, what have you gotten me into? So I said, I think you should do it alone. So she feels comfortable. So Adrian truly is extraordinary. And Michael says, okay. Michael's an actor. So it was one of the great lessons of my life. They go into Adrian's office. Ten minutes later, he comes out. He says, come in. And I walk into a room, small office at this. And there is a woman with wild hair, a V neck. I remember this vividly black dress, looking like another person. And she read the scene. Are you discreet? You've seen the movie, the scene where she kind of seduces him. And we sat in the corner watching it, and she was brilliant. And she got the part that day. And that was my lesson. My lesson is the actor knows what they can do. And if they won't read, you don't have to cast them, you know, But Glenn, I think it's one of the greatest performances in the history of film. Glenn knew that she was right. We didn't, because she's an actress. We'd only seen her do one thing. That was our problem. We were wrong. I mean, literally, in 10 minutes, we all went like that. And she was the lead. Michael loved her. Adrian, we all loved her. But we would have missed it if I hadn't said yes. And quite honestly, it's not me, it's Fred Spector, her agent, who, by the
- [71:25]
B
way, is still in the game, 90
- [71:28]
A
years old and is sharp and wonderful. And that's the other thing that I think we have to. To really work hard on, is getting rid of ageism. Age is a number. At 90 years old, he's as good as he's ever been. And somebody at 40 doesn't have to be good. So we can't. We have to redefine. That's one of the things I'm working on is with teachers, you know, is redefining ageism. You know, taking teachers, taking people who had a career, and in their third act, they become teachers.
- [72:00]
B
Do you have anybody today who you believe in the way your therapist believed in you?
- [72:05]
A
My kids and Billy? I believed in everything. Billy did everything. I just thought Billy was a genius and I believed in everything. And we had completely different tastes. And he would do films and I would go, really? I mean, you know, really. And then I would see them and I was in awe of them and I believed in my kids.
- [72:26]
B
You have a deep dive on that. What do you mean by that? Right. So the therapist was this non judgment zone. I never thought of therapy the way you. And by the way, I want the audience to understand, you went to therapy three days a week for five. I did years. We're not just talking about some, you know, month long thing you did.
- [72:43]
A
And then I want to say, whenever I had a trauma in my life that I couldn't handle, like my mother's death, I forget. Three days a week. I went every day for months. When my mother was sick with ovarian cancer, I couldn't handle it. I mean, I just kept talking to him and you know, how unresolved issues that I wanted to resolve, all sorts of stuff.
- [73:09]
B
Did she ever give you the feeling she was proud of you?
- [73:11]
A
Yes, yes, very much so.
- [73:13]
B
But could she verbalize?
- [73:15]
A
Yes, she did. She did. She did. The hospital bed, she said to me, I think I can see her now. She was lying in the hospital bed, she was dying. And I. I just didn't want her to die. And I kept saying, mom, I'll do anything you want. This is long before Billy. I wish they had met. She would have loved Billy. And he kept her alive because he was so creative. He always used to talk about my mother. I said, mom, I'll do anything. I'll get married, I'll have kids. Just please, what can I do to get you well? And she said, darling, I don't think you want to get married. And no, you shouldn't have kids. You're very happy.
- [73:54]
B
That kind of acceptance at the end. So when you talk about with the kids, believing in them the way what, what does that. Non judgmental.
- [74:04]
A
I just want them to be happy.
- [74:06]
B
Okay, so how does that show up in their life?
- [74:08]
A
I don't. I don't judge their choices. I just. I don't judge Enough. Judge what they do for work. I don't judge who they go out with. I mean, my son's married, you know, wonderful woman who's been married for over 10 years, 12 years, I think now I try. I just want them to be happy. Their lives do not define me. You know, you see a lot of people, you know, who are saying, oh, I want you to be a nuclear physicist or whatever, you know, whatever. I don't feel that way. I just want them to be happy.
- [74:46]
B
Have you had a good life?
- [74:48]
A
I've had a wonderful life. And I can't say the best is yet to come, because I miss Billy. And that's the only thing that's changed. I still find tremendous joy in life, even though I miss my husband every day. But the lucky thing for me, and I'm just blessed, I feel his presence every day. I feel like he's sitting here with me. And when I go home, I feel like he's there. And I talk to him all the time. So the best is not yet to come because I've lost the love of my life, but it's still damn great. And so I still have a joyous life. I still have wonderful, wonderful family, wonderful friends, male and female couple friends. And I find joy in life every single day. And I feel like he's still with me. So that allows me to do it. Not in a woo woo way. I mean, I know he's not there.
- [75:51]
B
Would you look for love again?
- [75:52]
A
No, I don't want anybody else, which is, you know, I'm 81. I lost Billy when I was 79. That's a really good run. And, you know, people ask me out, you know, and then other people, being kind, say, you know, why don't you go? Why don't you go out? And I go, I don't want to. And again, think of your life as a book. Okay? Think of the chapters. Yes. So you're young, you know, kid, then you go to school, then you date, then you have romances, then you find the love of your life and. And being a widow. For me, this is the chapter of widowhood, so to speak. And there is only one good thing about being a widow that I've come up with, and that is total freedom. I can do anything I want, whatever I want. And I'm blessed, as I said, with a wonderful family, with wonderful friends, couples, male friends, botanic friends. And I'm also blessed with economic security, which I do not take for granted. And so far, you never know. Good health. So I'm very lucky. And I have interesting work. I love the work that my foundation does. I love it. I'm passionate about it, just like I used to be about movies, you know. And I still see a lot of movies. I don't want to make them, but I see them. And so this chapter is about not being alone, but just doing what I want to do. I don't have to worry about anything else. And so it's a very happy chapter too. I would trade it all if Billy would come back, but that's not going to happen. And so when you say date, I can never meet somebody that's like Billy. I will never meet somebody that's like that special. So it would always be less than. And that would make me angry. And I'm not going to give up my freedom for less than.
- [77:56]
B
Have you ever thought of yourself as a teacher?
- [77:59]
A
Well, I was a teacher.
- [78:01]
B
Yeah, I know the substitute thing. But like that was temporary. Are you trying to be.
- [78:05]
A
Yeah.
- [78:07]
B
By the way, if we haven't already, the episode, please pop up a picture of, of Sherry as real love for an actress. Look at those eyes, like gorgeous.
- [78:19]
A
Well, they don't exist anymore.
- [78:21]
B
But my point is, in doing our research and reading your story, there is something about what you have done along the way that has taught people not just through the movies, you tell. That's one thing. And at the end of the day, like you said, people may not remember what you were the head of, whatever, they'll remember the movies. But what I'm going to remember about this conversation is how the young girl who had really no self esteem from Chicago went on to become Sherry Big deal Lansing and over the course of her life continued to seek out improvement in herself.
- [78:58]
A
Thank you.
- [78:58]
B
And that is the lesson I want this audience to take away. Thank you. Nobody's going to be Sherry Lansing, the studio head, the movie. Great. But we all can look at ourselves and say, I had a really painful childhood and I was deeply insecure and I can keep growing, I can keep bettering. And that's the takeaway for me.
- [79:19]
A
And you keep growing and bettering in your 80s and redefining aging. You learn something new every day and you have meaningful connections and the thing that sustains you is your interpersonal relationships. That's success. Yes, that's success.
- [79:39]
B
This has been such a joyful conversation.
- [79:40]
A
Well, me too. I love talking to you. It was really fun. I mean, and I learned things as well, you know, you're just a joy to talk to.
- [79:48]
B
Well, thank you for the time.
- [79:49]
A
Thank you.
- [79:50]
B
Thank you for the time.
- [79:56]
A
I'm Sherry Lansing and the person who believed in me was Dr. Joshua Hoffs.
- [80:02]
B
I thought you might want to know, but this podcast is at the heart of a company I founded called Do Good Crew. I've spent 25 years telling stories. It used to be the bad news and now I want to focus on the good news. The everyday heroes who are doing extraordinary things. You can join us. We do live events, but we also have a newsletter. It's free. You can sign up for it by going to www.thedogoodcrew. this show was created by me, David Vegno. Our executive producers are Ellen Rockamora and Olivier Delfoss. Our associate producer is Griffin Hamilton. Our booker is Sully Block. Director of photography is Foster Parks. Our theme music was created by Slipstream, post production and edit done by Long Wave Digital. This podcast was brought to you by our friends at Canva. If you're interested in more stories about people doing good in this world, go sign up for our free newsletter at www.thedogoodcrew.
- [81:07]
A
Com.