The Cold Pitch That Took Her From UNKNOWN To Hollywood | Ava DuVernay

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Cold Pitch That Took Her From UNKNOWN To Hollywood | Ava DuVernay"

Podcast: The Person Who Believed In Me
Host: David Begnaud
Guest: Ava DuVernay
Date: March 16, 2026

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Main Theme

In this deeply human and inspiring conversation, Emmy-winning journalist David Begnaud sits down with visionary filmmaker Ava DuVernay to explore the pivotal role that belief—especially from others—plays in shaping creative lives. DuVernay shares the story of how a cold, business-like pitch to legendary film critic Roger Ebert changed the trajectory of her career. The episode dives into vulnerability, gratitude, mentorship, the mechanics of breaking into Hollywood, the power of personal storytelling, and the responsibilities of holding the door open for others.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Power of Belief: Roger Ebert’s Transformative Support

• Roger Ebert as Ava’s “Person Who Believed”:

  • Ava discusses how Ebert, a household name known for Siskel & Ebert, fundamentally altered her career by taking her work seriously at a time when her opportunities were scarce.
  • [04:28] Photo moment: Ava recalls meeting Roger Ebert as a child outside the Oscars, a ritual outing with her Aunt Denise who kindled her love for film, not knowing then she would become a filmmaker.

• The Origin of "I Will Follow" and Ebert’s Review:

  • [09:05] Ava describes pitching her debut film “I Will Follow” directly to Ebert, using her publicist experience. She notes the risk, lack of connections, and her “audacious” hope.
  • Ebert’s review was deeply personal and shifted entire perceptions around her film.
  • [11:00] Quote:
    • Ava (reading Ebert's review):
      “Every emotion in this wonderful independent film is one I’ve experienced myself. Grief, of course, but also anger, loneliness, confusion... Above all, urgent conversations you have in your mind about someone who is no longer alive.”
  • [12:11] Ava: “That review put [the film] on the map as if I had been at a Sundance. People were taking notice of the film. My very next film did make it into Sundance, and I believe the buzz from the first one made them take a closer look at the second one.”

• Impact Beyond the Screen:

  • [15:33] Ava on the film’s roots: “It’s about my Aunt Denise and the day that I moved out of a home we shared... She and my mother and my grandmother—raised in this matriarchy... The film all takes place in one day where the main character... packs up and moves out of a home she shared with someone she loved who’s gone.”
  • [14:26] Ava: “To actually send it to this big critic and have him see it and say that it had value gave me confidence to move forward.”

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Storytelling as Healing and Responsibility

• [17:24] Ava discusses the personal and emotional connections behind all her films, even when tackling subjects like criminal justice (“When They See Us”) or civil rights (“Selma”).
• [41:36] Notable Quote:
  • Ava: “Cinema has the power to rewrite memory. When we tell the truth on screen, we make room for healing.”
• [42:21] Ava expands:
  • “Cinema is an expressive force that changes your energy when you watch. When you nourish yourself with images, with stories... things bloom. Cinema is such a powerful force.”

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Building Community & Opening Doors

• Array and Distribution Equity:

  • [19:24] Ava explains how, after facing closed studio doors, she built collective distribution models:
    • “It’s about building community and saying we can do this outside of the studio system... Every film that we show on the campus is free. We see people coming back again and again.”
    • Affirm → Array → Netflix output deal, creating infrastructure for marginalized voices.

• Intentional Inclusion:

  • [18:10] On “Queen Sugar,” every director was a woman by design: “We were just trying to model what hundreds of shows with all men had done... We were just trying to do the same thing.”

• Ava’s Core Mantras:

  • [20:51]
    • “If your dream only includes you, it’s too small.”
  • [34:32]
    • “If you’re in a position to open doors, open the door all the way. Don’t just crack it.”
  • [60:48]
    • “You can lead with kindness and still demand excellence.”

• [21:49] Translating belief into opportunity: “We founded a distribution entity. Not only did Ebert review a film that only cost $50,000 from a black woman filmmaker that had never made a film, but there was no studio. He was also reviewing a film and putting energy into a film that didn’t have a studio. That’s very irregular.”

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Vulnerability, Confidence, and the Unseen Path

• Dealing with Doubt & “Imposter Syndrome”:

  • [31:48] Ava admits she felt the “demerit” of not going to film school:
    • “I was very aware that I did not have all the film school tools of my counterparts... But we always emphasize the things that we don’t have.”
  • [46:22] Ava: “I doubted that I had a filmmaker’s voice. I doubted that my story about me and my aunt, you know, was interesting enough... I’ve since come to know that I am not that unique... If I’m moved by it, someone else [will be].”

• Advice for Those Seeking Help:

  • [58:53] Ava:
    • “I like you to lead with what you’re already doing... People want to get on a moving train. What are you already doing? I can’t start you from a stop. I can push you forward and get you going a little bit faster.”

• Finding Your Calling (At Any Age):

  • [44:22] Ava:
    • “I definitely feel like I’ve found my calling. And that didn’t happen until I was in my 30s. It just proves you can always find it. It’s there if it hasn’t come for you in your early years.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Ebert’s Enduring Impact

• [30:49] Ava: “There’s something very catalytic, very, very, very meaningful about being taken seriously... That act of being taken seriously gave me wings, and that’s why I wanted to talk about him on this.”

• [55:25] Ava, on real support:

  • “If you’re gonna give of yourself, don’t do people favors. Take them seriously... A paying client or the client that you take pro bono should have the same weight. If you say you’re gonna do it, do it.”

Advice & Insights for Creatives

• [26:25] Ava:

  • “I didn’t have an idea of what I wanted to do, and I can do anything. I just had an idea that there’s nothing that I can’t do once I decide what I want.”

• [53:14] On finding a good publicist:

  • “Creativity. You want someone that’s going to look at the show, look at you, and figure out the angles that are the untraditional angles... It is a charisma, a convincing, a creativity in the way it’s pitched and what you’re pitching.”

Paying It Forward

• [50:04] Recent example: Ava shares how a young Black woman from Geneva, Switzerland, inspired by their chance meeting, moved to LA, trained in filmmaking, and now works at Array.
• [56:05] On opening doors:
  • “You have to open it wide enough, make sure that they have the support to walk through, but they do have to walk through on their own... I can’t get you over the threshold.”

Personal Connections & Legacy

• [37:05] Ava recalls meeting Ebert as an adult:

  • “I was able to meet him... at the time that I was able to meet him, he wasn’t able to speak. It was very nonverbal… I spoke at his funeral... and had the opportunity to speak about my experience with him and how that review and his ongoing attention really changed my life. It was just such an honor.”

• [62:52] On kindness and excellence:

  • “True kindness is just a desire to not be sitting at the top alone... There’s so many ways we can be kind. If you’re really being kind, it’s hard to truly be kind. It’s much easier to sound kind.”

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Important Timestamps

• [09:05]: Ava recounts pitching “I Will Follow” to Ebert.
• [11:00]: Ava reads Ebert’s pivotal review.
• [14:26]: The confidence Ebert’s review gave her.
• [18:10]: Ava on only hiring women directors for Queen Sugar.
• [20:51]: “If your dream only includes you, it’s too small.”
• [30:49]: The impact of being taken seriously.
• [31:48]: Ava discusses doubt and non-traditional career paths.
• [41:36]: “Cinema has the power to rewrite memory.”
• [44:22]: On finding her calling in her 30s.
• [53:14]: Advice on hiring a publicist.
• [55:25]: On taking others seriously, not just “doing favors."
• [58:53]: How to approach seeking help or mentorship.
• [62:52]: “You can lead with kindness and still demand excellence.”

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Conclusion

Ava DuVernay’s journey is a testament to the transformative impact of mentorship, self-belief, and the power of one person’s conviction—especially when they have nothing to gain from helping you. From cold emails and “audacious” pitches to building community-wide distribution and opening doors for others, every thread of DuVernay’s story is woven through with gratitude, tenacity, and a relentless desire to pull others up behind her.

Memorable Closer—Ava on Paying It Forward:
“If you’re doing something and you come to me, I’m about to get you through this door.”
[61:03]

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For listeners and dreamers:

This conversation is more than a Hollywood success story—it’s a guide to persistence, community, vulnerability, and using your own belief (and that gifted by others) as armor for the journey ahead.

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Compiled by The Person Who Believed In Me Podcast Summarizer

Transcript

[A]

Your films are provocative, like, very provocative in a meaningful, impactful way.

[B]

I think it's a scary time to have an opinion, period. Oh, it's hard. It's hard right now. And so I think everyone has to decide what's comfortable for them within my work.

[A]

Very well said. Give it up for Ava Duvernay, Peabody and Emmy winning director, a groundbreaking force in Hollywood.

[B]

After I made my film, I, in a very transactional way, sent him a pitch. Okay, I just sent it like I always did, all business. And he says, yes, I'll do the movie at this time.

[A]

That in itself is a bfd.

[B]

And how beautiful of him to say yes.

[A]

Shit. Those boys have been around so long.

[B]

He got it and he got it from a deeply personal place. And that spurred him to continue to talk about it in ways that really changed my career. I look at it now and feel proud of the girl who did not know what the back or front side of a camera was really, and just decided to tell this story. Cinema is a expressive force that changes. Changes your energy when you watch that

[A]

kind of gave me the chills.

[B]

There was nothing he could get from doing that, but he did it anyway. That act of being taken seriously is what he gave as armor.

[A]

If you could speak to the version of yourself before the review, before the review, what would you tell her?

[B]

Hey, how are you?

[A]

Great to see you.

[B]

Good to see you. Such an honor.

[A]

In this podcast, we sit down with some of the world's most successful people who reveal a person that believed in them before the world did. The conversations are deep, raw and relatable. Special thanks to our friends at Canva for believing in us. Canva has a two part mission. Build one of the world's most valuable companies and then do the most good you can with it. They give their product free of charge to schools and nonprofits because they are on a mission to create equal opportunities that empower people all over the world. And finally, please like and subscribe this video. And if you're listening, please consider rating our podcast. This is the person who believed in me. I'm David Begnaud. My guest is Ava DuVernay, filmmaker, Kingmaker. She's got films you've heard of and projects she's working on behind the scenes that you know nothing about. She is constantly working to not only amplify what we see in film, but she's working with people behind the scenes to provide opportunities for people who want to be Ava DuVernay. One day, she was a publicist, a young girl who grew up in Southern California with a big dream. And as you will hear her say, she believed in herself from a very young age and her ability to do exactly what she put her mind to. So if you would, welcome to the program, my friend Eva, it's great to have you here.

[B]

I'm so happy to be here. I remember when there was no here.

[A]

Thank you for saying yes. Well, let's start off this way. You were. Here's why I'm super excited that you're in the chair. You were the first and only person I reached out to when I hatched this idea. And I pulled up the text message because I want to read it back to you and remind you. So I wrote to you and I told you all about the concept. The person who believed in me. Every guest is a big name, but the star of every episode is the everyday person who believed in them before the world did. And you said to me, it's a good idea for a show. It's aspirational and uplifting. We could shoot it as a pilot for your company. She goes by we, I mean you, of course, but happy to be the subject. And then you said you'd have so many high profile folks interested in being featured. As for viewers, it's aspirational. I want to be the person people might think who helps someone like that one day. Wow. That's what you said.

[B]

I did not recall that. I'm glad we had that exchange.

[A]

So thank you for believing in me, in the concept and supporting it by being here.

[B]

Well, and look what you've done.

[A]

Here we are.

[B]

Now we're here.

[A]

Voila. I want to start with this.

[B]

Okay? Okay. Yes. I feel that everyone else's person is going to be a person that might not have been as famous as this person. But I didn't want to change my answer based on. I want it to be based on a person who believed in me. That changed everything.

[A]

Some people might be listening and not watching this, so tell people what we're looking at.

[B]

I'm looking at a picture of myself as a little girl with my thumb in the air, like a thumbs up, standing next to an older gentleman with sunglasses. And that gentleman also has a thumbs up. And it is Roger Ebert.

[A]

And he is the man who believed in you.

[B]

He is.

[A]

How old were you in that photo?

[B]

I don't know. It has to be 8, 9.

[A]

Do you remember even taking that?

[B]

I remember the day. I do. I remember it. I remember the day really well. It was a ritual that my Aunt Denise, who plays a big part in my love of film. My aunt Denise would take me and my sisters Gina and Tara down to the Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles on Saturday before the Oscars on Sunday. And on Saturday is when all of the presenters would come in and rehearse. So every single presenter on the Oscars to this day has to come in the day before and walk on the stage at least once, feel the cameras, feel the lights, and to the public could watch that. They could watch them go in just standing on the street. And so over the years, they put up stanchions and bleachers and risers, and it's become a thing. But back then, my Aunt Denise, before the Oscars, were the huge spectacle that is now. Just a cinephile, just a film lover, knew this. And for years, we would go down and watch the stars go in to the rehearsal, and we would drive from Compton and we would be some of the only black people out there. And I got to see everyone at the time, and I don't know Michael Keaton and just all the people that I'd seen in the movies.

[A]

Were you looking for Roger Ebert?

[B]

I knew him. I knew that he was famous from the TV show. He had a TV show at the time that people might not know.

[A]

Siskel and Ebert.

[B]

Siskel and Ebert. One time, I think it was called at the Movies, but the Siskel and Ebert, the two guys that gave thumbs up. Two guys that would just sit in a theater. Brilliant concept. Sit in a theater and argue about movies.

[A]

I would say, I don't know, I'm

[B]

guessing 10, maybe 9, 8, 9, 10.

[A]

Okay. Okay. So is this girl that we're looking at in this photo dreaming of being a filmmaker?

[B]

No. No, not at all. She just loved movies.

[A]

She just loved movies.

[B]

I just loved movies. And I loved experiencing movies with my aunt Denise. And I talked so much about my aunt Denise. The theater in my. On my campus is named the Amanda Theater after her middle name. She was so formative. She gave me my love of movies. But in talking about her and dedicating the theater to her and so many other other things that I. That I used to salute her, I thought this show would be good to talk about, you know, a couple other people.

[A]

So we're going to wander, but I want to go now to a tweet from March 5, 2011, 1:32pm From Roger Ebert's account. He writes, I love the new indie film I will follow, which opens March 11th in about a dozen big US cities. Here's my TV review. And about, oh, I don't know, 39 minutes later, Ava DuVernay tweets, speechless. Did Roger Ebert just tweet the words love? And I will follow. I am without words, truly overjoyed and so grateful. You remember that day?

[B]

Mm, I do. I do. Big deal.

[A]

What was going through your mind?

[B]

It was a big deal because I had worked as a film publicist before that tweet, and I had interacted with him as a publicist. I. I would. He would book himself. So he. A lot of the big, you know, TV personalities like yourself, you're not taking calls from off the street from anyone. You have people on your team that will, you know, take the requests and consider them and bring them to you as a big TV star that you are. He was also a big TV star, but he was based in Chicago. And this was a different time. I mean, we barely had social media then. It was just Twitter and I think, and MySpace had been there, and it wasn't as, I don't know, kind of digitized and easy as it was as it is now. And I was able, as a publicist to reach him directly. He didn't have a booker. If you wanted to book him to watch a movie, you wrote him. I know. And so I would write. He had a certain theater that he liked in town. He had a certain time that he liked to do it, and it was just his way, and everybody did it. So I would write him and ask him to review films that I was representing, and he would write me back. And it was very transactional. Mr. Ebert, I'm pitching this movie.

[A]

It's about this super unemotional, just like business.

[B]

It's all business. I'm a publicist. He's a critic. This is my job. This is his job. This is the thing. Or, no, I'm not gonna review that movie. Somebody else is gonna do it or whatever. And so I'd had that shorthand. So after I made my film, I, in a very transactional way, sent him a pitch from. For my movie.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I did not put the. I didn't start with, hi, this is my movie. I just sent it like I always do. Here's the movie. This is the screening time. All business.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

And he says, yes, I'll do the movie at this time. All transaction. I'm like, he doesn't even know it's me. Great.

[A]

Okay. That in itself, that I will do. The movie is a bfd.

[B]

Yeah. I'm going to review this film.

[A]

Because it's your first film.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You're still working as a publicist. To make bread.

[B]

Yes. It's barely in any festivals. It's not in Sundance, not in any fancy.

[A]

You had the 50 grand. That was it. That went into a whole.

[B]

That's what I made the movie for, 50 grand.

[A]

And you ask like the critic of our time to say what he thinks.

[B]

That's right. How audacious and how beautiful of him to say yes. He says yes to this. This little movie that's made for almost no money. I remember scraping up money because I couldn't use studio money to get the screening room for him. So I remember thinking, ah, just I'm gonna use all my money to get the screening room for him. That he likes to see this movie. He watches the movie and he writes me back and says, your movie. I watched your movie. I'll be in touch. And I was like, your movie? Does he mean my movie that I'm representing?

[A]

Right?

[B]

Does he mean my movie? Like, he knows it's my movie.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I was going through all this with some friends and they were like, of course he knows your movie. Your name comes up at the end. Right? So I'm freaking out. I don't know what he thinks. Does he feel like I manipulated him? Does he feel like I'm freaking out? Does he? I don't say nothing else comes until the tweet.

[A]

Shit. Okay, so I would like. I thought about this for a moment. I was like, should I read this? And I was like, no, no, no, no. I want Ava to read it.

[B]

The review.

[A]

It's part of the review. Oh, I want you.

[B]

Oh, this is gonna get me. Yeah, I will follow. Doesn't tell a story so much as try to understand a woman. Through her, we can find insights into the way we deal with death in one way or another. Every emotion in this wonderful independent film is one I've experienced myself. Grief, of course, but also anger, loneliness, confusion, and a sense of lost direction. Above all, urgent conversations you have in your mind about someone who is no longer alive. How many people now dead have you wanted to ask questions you should have asked when they were alive? It was a meditation on grief was what the film was. And he, being someone who at the time was battling with a. A life threatening illness, really understood something about it, that it went beyond the excitement of him reviewing the film. He got it and he got it from a deeply personal place. And that spurred him to continue to talk about it in ways that really changed my career.

[A]

Had this review not happened, would you be where you are today?

[B]

I don't think it would have happened. The way it did, I can't say. I do believe that everything happens for a reason. I do believe that what I create for a living was meant to be. And so it might have come through a different track, or it may have been later. It might have been different. But I do know that everything that's happened now and all the steps since, this was a huge first step, because I had applied for Sundance seven times, and with this film, the labs, the shorts, the documentary, everything, this is my first feature film. I applied to be in labs. I applied for the script. I applied for the festival. That film didn't make it into the Sundance Film Festival. So as an independent American filmmaker, that's the huge, huge thing. And after that, it's like, well, I'm on my own. I got to get this film out on my own. So that review put it on the map as if I had been at a Sundance. People were taking notice of the film. And my very next film did make it into Sundance. And I believe the buzz from the first one made them take a closer look at the second one. And there were some key people involved in that. But I know that, you know, I was booked on cnn. I was booked on morning shows. I was able to use his review to get other reviews. Other reviewers had said, no, we will not review the film. No, it's too small. It's not opening in enough markets. You're not in our city, Such and such. But his national review made it of national concern. And as soon as I start to send that review to people, they start to assign reviews.

[A]

I've been telling stories for 25 years, and when I read his review, you know how it hit me was I said, this was a man who was not just entertained by a film. This was a man who was impacted by it.

[B]

I felt like he was moved by it.

[A]

Yeah, you felt like he was moved. He literally wrote that.

[B]

Yeah, he did. He did. I felt like he was moved by it. I thought it was just such a gorgeous review. And as someone who loved him and watched him on television and then as a publicist began to interact with him and really read his reviews and knew his voice, I could tell that that review was one that he'd put some time into and that his heart was in it.

[A]

But also, isn't that what we're after, like you and I? Isn't that what we're after? We're not just looking to entertain. We want to impact.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[A]

And if you can do that to

[B]

a critic, I think so. But also, the Confidence that it gives someone who didn't go to film. I didn't go to film school. I'd never done this before. I put together my own money, a small crew. Everything was borrowed. And to actually send it to this big critic and have him see it and say that it had value gave me confidence to move forward. So I think that in answer to the question of would the career have been the same, I think there's something in the alchemy and the chemistry and the energy of what his attention did that actually changed me in a way that even if other connections had led me to Sundance or something else, his review and what he continued to do about amplifying that film gave me a confidence that I took with me to watch the film.

[A]

I went and signed up for a library card. Oh, yes.

[B]

On Canopy.

[A]

And I. Yes, on Canopy. And that's how I got to watch it.

[B]

Yes. Good.

[A]

And something about the film, what I wrote, which stuck out to me maybe above all else, is that the film shows us how grief not only connects us, but isolates us at the same time. And so, for people who haven't seen the film, give us the Cliff Notes of. Of what it is about.

[B]

Well, it's a little handmade film. I look at it now and feel proud of the girl who did not know what the back or front side of a camera was really, and just decided to tell this story. It's about my Aunt Denise and the day that I moved out of a home that we shared. She was a huge influence on me, really helped shape who I am today. She and my mother and my grandmother. I was raised in this matriarchy, and they were strong ladies. But Denise was a very particular personality. And so when I was already working as a publicist, she was diagnosed with breast cancer for the second time. And by the time they caught it, it was already stage four. She had been told she had about a year. She lived for an extra year. And I said, you know what? Let's just. Just live. Well, so I moved out of my apartment, she moved out of her apartment, and we got a house on the beach in Long beach here in California, in an area that she always wanted to live. And we spent the last couple years doing the chemo treatments and doing all of that, but really knowing that this was an inevitability and trying to live as well as we could during that time. The film is about me having to move out of that house and go on with life and try to figure out how to go back to the life that I had, which would be forever impacted without her and kind of leave that space. So the film all takes place in one day where the main character, who's inspired by my own experience, packs up and moves out of a home she shared with someone she loved who's gone. That's what it's about.

[A]

Does every film you've gone on to create have some personal or emotional connection for you to the film?

[B]

I think so. I mean, I think. I think Selma, in some ways, for hire. Yeah. I have to feel connected to it somehow. I mean, I look at something like when they see us and certainly that's not my personal experience, but those boys were my age. I remember watching that on tv. It was personal because I was experiencing it as the public at the time and, you know, certainly so connected to the issues of justice within it. So, yeah, I feel like. But even. Even in. Or something like Queen Sugar, there are characters in it and things that people say and do that certainly come from me and my family.

[A]

Set in New Orleans, I might add.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

From Louisiana and aired on the Oprah Winfrey Network from.

[B]

Gosh, seven seasons.

[A]

Yeah. I thought it was eight. And by the way, every director of every season was a woman.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Intentionally?

[B]

Yes. Not by accident. Intentionally. Yeah. We were told it wasn't possible. You know what, David? We were just trying to model all the hundreds of shows since the beginning of television that had all men. We were just, you know, trying to do the same thing.

[A]

It's why I believe that your work is about so much more than just telling a story. Right. Like you're not only amplifying things on screen, but there's stuff happening behind the scenes. You know, I want to tell a little story before we jump back in to the, to the Ebert part, which is, you know, he is the star of the episode. But when you invited me to Array, which is your sprawling entity in, what is it, Echo Park.

[B]

Yeah. Historic Filipino Town, which is fabulous.

[A]

And I walked around. Oh, by the way, the people who took me on a tour were people who employed you as a publicist back.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

Now they work for you.

[B]

Well, we work together.

[A]

Okay, fine. But they, they, they help run the non profit. And as I walked around, I realized that like, yeah, you're making movies, but you're also building this entity that is trying to. For people trying to showcase films that otherwise wouldn't be shown. Like, I didn't realize you were doing all that behind the scenes.

[B]

Right, right. Well, I mean, it was really just trying to build community. I mean, Paul and Tammy Garnes. Paul is my producer, so he produced Selma and Queen Sugar, and Tammy is also a producer, and she runs all the education pieces. Tulane Jones, who's the president of the company, has been with the company, I think, 15, 16 years. Mercedes Cooper's been with the company 12, 13 years. It's about building community and. And saying we can do this outside of the studio system. You know, I always tell people, if you're looking to do something, find your tribe, find your clan, find your group, find your family and build that. And I think that that can extend to community as well. We're inviting people in. Every film that we show on the campus is free. We see people coming back again and again. They start to know each other, they start to know their neighbors. And I think there's really something to that, especially in these tense times, convening, being in the same place in person, offline.

[A]

Amen.

[B]

Seeing people more than once, getting to know people.

[A]

Is it true that you have some kind of relationship with Netflix where you can, like, put whatever indie film on there that you want?

[B]

I did for about eight years. We had a deal with Netflix where we had an output deal, so we would choose very handpicked independent films to go on. We did about four a year for about eight years. We just finished that deal last year.

[A]

What a hell of a deal. All right, so I've got some Ava quotes that I want to delve into throughout the episode. One is, you said this was in a TED Talk, if your dream only includes you, it's too small.

[B]

Yes, it's true. It's true.

[A]

I think that kind of defines where you are in life because you're constantly trying to bring in other people to give them a shot.

[B]

Yeah, I think just it's more fun. Why be somewhere alone, you know, why dream and work so hard and build whatever thing is that you want to build, to not kind of share in the energy and success of it or the failure of it or just the experience of it with other. Other people. I know. I found that I have more satisfaction when it's not just me standing there holding the thing.

[A]

So you just talked about building. You talked about belief. I want to go back to Roger. The review really gave you, I don't know, more confidence, momentum. Is that fair to say? Because, I mean, middle of nowhere in Selma came pretty shortly after that. Right. So your voice is louder. It's when people start to hear this name. Ava DuVernay. Right. How did you translate that belief from him into opportunity for others?

[B]

Well, I mean, one of the things that he's talking about in the tweet, when he says it's gonna be opening in several markets, and he continued to tweet about it. He continued to tweet.

[A]

Yeah, he did.

[B]

Continued to amplify. He talked about it on his radio show, on the TV show. And at that point, if people recall, he didn't have his voice because his voice. Because of the cancer, his voice box had been taken away his vocal cords. And so he was tweeting, you know, ferociously. And he had a radio show where there was another. Another person's voice reading his reviews, and he just continued to work. But one of the things he's talking about is in the film was opening a few markets, was through a distribution entity that we founded that we were not released by a studio. So not only did he review a film that only cost $50,000 from a filmmaker, a black woman filmmaker that, you know, had never made a film, but he was also reviewing a film and putting energy into a film that didn't have a studio. And that's very irregular. And so we had put that film out on our own through a distribution idea that I'd had called Affirm, which is all the African American film festivals got together, and they all released a film in their city the same day, which gave it a national release. The African American film festival releasing movement, Affirm, which became Array, which is our organization now, and that begat the Netflix deal. And that's why we're always distributing, because I understand that it's not just about making the film. It's about connecting the film to an audience. And that's something that is a part of what you have to build, because it's not just gonna appear.

[A]

Can I take us down a tangent real quick?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

You introduced me to the name Darren Walker, who's a man who recently ran the Ford Foundation. And you told this, like, almost hard to believe story about being at work. And the phone rings and the assistant says, Mr. Walker's on the. You're like, okay, fine, I'll take the call. He gets on the call. You don't know much about who he is or what he does. And he says, what to you?

[B]

He says that he saw my film 13th at a film festival, and how was I kind of doing my community work? And I said, well, a. I don't know who you are, and this is probably none of your business. I didn't say that. But I'm thinking, who are you? And he says. I say, you know, I Just I make things, and then I put it into my community work. He's like, yes, but how's the money coming? I said, from what I make, and then I do my community programs. He says, you don't have a nonprofit. I said, no, no, I'm afraid of that. I don't want to get into trouble like westnease knives or something. He's like, first of all, Wesley's not to have a nonprofit. Secondly, what's wrong with you? He said, if I hire someone to consult with you and help you be less afraid of running a nonprofit, would you. Would you work with them? And I said, well, absolutely. And he said, and when you do that, and then I can give you some money. And I said. He said, actually, let me just give you some money to start, and then you can have this person. And he just start. He believed in the community work. He saw someone doing work to connect cinema and community. And he. And not asking for anything, and really raised his hand and said, you need to learn that there are organizations that will support this work so you can scale it, make it bigger. And that's how we have the campus, and that's how we're able to show films for free, and that's how we're able to have these. These filmmakers be on Netflix and so forth.

[A]

You want to talk about somebody who believed in you too, Darren Walker? You got a list of people?

[B]

Oh, I do.

[A]

I need to take a moment just to thank Canva for backing this podcast. Their support is what makes these conversations possible. Canva's guided by a clear idea. Build something incredibly valuable and then use it to do real good in the world. That's why they provide their tools free of charge to schools and nonprofits, helping to create equal access and opportunity for people all over the world. All right, here's another Ava quote. I'm not here to make work that is safe. I'm here to make work that moves.

[B]

Okay. I don't remember saying that.

[A]

I love how I'm reminding you of what you said. You don't remember?

[B]

My own thoughts and words.

[A]

Here's. Here's another one. When you're in spaces, you said this to W magazine. When you're in spaces where you're not always represented, your presence alone is an act of resistance.

[B]

Oh, yes, very true, Very true. Well, you know that. You know that from going way back.

[A]

I do, yes. And another one. I didn't grow up thinking I would be a filmmaker. I grew up thinking I could be anything.

[B]

I did. I did. I didn't really feel like I had limitations on it. I didn't. It wasn't really an issue or a thought that there was something that I couldn't do. I don't think I had a I can do anything mentality. I just didn't have a mentality that there are things that I couldn't do. I think there's a difference. I didn't have an idea of. I want to be a.

[A]

Hold on, let me sit with that for a second. Say that again, because that's super powerful.

[B]

I didn't have an idea of what I wanted to do, and I can do anything. I just had an idea that there's nothing that I can't do once I decide what I want.

[A]

What do you attribute that to? The women who raised you? The places?

[B]

Yeah, I think so. I think the women who raised me was my mom, my grandmother, and my Aunt Denise. And then, you know, my father was a huge force in my life, but I think a much stronger, strong, silent type. I mean, you're in a house with these three powerful black women. He was smart enough to be like,

[A]

okay, keep his mouth shut.

[B]

You know what? I'm gonna be strong and silent over here and support in these ways. But I think all of those incredible people in the community that I grew up and my brothers and sisters, there just wasn't an idea that there was something that we would set our mind to that we couldn't figure out.

[A]

You were quoted as saying, I am my ancestors wildest dreams, and I am my own next step.

[B]

Yes. I'm my ancestors wildest dreams is a saying that's in the community that people say, But I think from there, you know, from their dreaming, we have to be active and we have to actually do something to make them come through. True. They don't just materialize. We have to do, lean in.

[A]

Something I know about you is you are not afraid to share your opinion. And I love that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because a lot of. Because a lot of us, as we get bigger in our careers, I think, and I'm going to speak for myself here, I have a little bit more caution about what I say because I don't want to. I'm in a different place in my career. I don't do the news anymore. And so, you know, I always tell people I have a very strong opinion, but I work very hard to keep it to myself because it does nothing to. To. To help me in the kind of impact work I'm trying to do. But your films are provocative, like, very provocative in a meaningful impactful way.

[B]

Well, I'm glad. I want people to think. Think for themselves and be able to take action and learn and all of those things. I think this is a scary time to have opinions that might be. I think it's a scary time to have an opinion, period, no matter what the opinion is. Because we're in such a polarizing time that you cannot have any opinion and there not be opposition to it, no matter what it is these days. And I think it takes a little bit of gumption and gusto to be able to state what you believe and to stand in it. It's hard. It's hard. Right now. People are losing jobs and relationships and all kinds of things around that. And so I think everyone has to decide, you know, what's comfortable for them. Within my work, I feel that's the place where I should and can and want to be able to say what I feel needs to be said.

[A]

Very well said. Back to Roger Eber. After calling the films one of the best films I've seen about coming to terms with the death of a loved one, he wrote his words, reframe the film as intimate and essential. But not small. Right. Small budget, small film, small filmmaker. Smaller. But. But he didn't. He didn't portray it that way. It was intimate, it was essential. And for a critic of his stature to say that, yeah, was huge.

[B]

I think it is. And I think as you say that, it reminds me there's something very catalytic, very, very, very meaningful about being taken seriously.

[A]

Damn right.

[B]

Like when you are speaking with a young person or listening to a friend who's talking to you about whatever's going on in their day, just to be able to listen. People know when they're being taken seriously. When you're tuned in, when you are considering, when you're sensitive to what they're going through, when you're at least even trying to understand. And I think that act of being taken seriously is what he gave me as an armor to go forward. I mean, it's a small film, it's by a woman who's never made a film. There's no studio behind it. But to take your time to a go to the screening room, actually take your notes, actually go home and write it, actually tweet it, actually tweet it again and again and again. That act of being taken seriously gave me wings, and that's why I wanted to talk about him on this, because there are people who are foldable adults who've never heard of Roger Ebert. But for my generation of filmgoers and certainly filmmakers like. That was the review that you wanted.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And for that to happen, it really changed the alchemy within me. For someone who, at times. I don't like that term. What do people say? Not fraud. What do people say? Imposter syndrome.

[A]

Imposter syndrome.

[B]

I don't think I really had that, but I did. I was very aware that I did not have all the film school tools of my counterparts. And for someone to say this film had something in it that's worth a while and keep going was a big deal. It took me seriously.

[A]

You've said a couple of times now that you didn't go to film school. Right. So you weren't. As a. In a way, I would assume that being a director is something you definitely have to go to film school for. But yet you've been so super successful. So to be clear, did you go find mentors? Did you, like. How did you learn? How do you become Ava DuVernay? Because it's not from guessing.

[B]

Wow. Well, thank you. There are many, many of our great filmmakers who went to film school, and there are an equal number that did not.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And so I wouldn't think that there are. I mean, you think of, you know, the history of cinema before they were film schools, there were people making films. Think about international cinema in countries where there are no films, film schools. And so this idea, though, that in American cinema, especially in American independent cinema, at a certain time, it was very much the NYU crowd, you know, the. You know, I mean, Spike, famously, Spike Lee, famously nyu. I mean, we know the schools. And I think that. So for me, it was always a little bit, you know, and you take on these things, you know, you see the imperfections in yourself more than anyone. It was my little demerit, my thing that I thought, oh, this is what. This is what they'll hold against me. Or these are all the things I don't know, instead of embracing. Wow. You actually have been a publicist for 10 years.

[A]

That's what I'm saying.

[B]

You've been on more sets than most people who've gone to film school. You stood there next to Michael Mann, right. You've stood there next and watched Steven Spielberg on a set, direct. You've heard the way they call action. You've watched them block. You've seen the great cinematographers set up. Like you have done something through your practical experience, in your work experience. You know how to talk to actors, you know. You know, because you're talking to them all the time. These are things that you do have. But we always emphasize the things that we don't have.

[A]

Well, and I think, here's why I bring it up. Because over the course of my career, everything I wanted to in some way hide becomes what the whole story is about once you become successful. Because when they write a story of success, they. You know what it leads with. Without going to film school and being a publicist and having only two. Right. That's what the whole damn story's about. Yes, but yet we run away from it in the beginning because it doesn't. We don't think it makes us look.

[B]

Yes, yes. It's great for people to hear. It's great for people to know that you say it so well. The thing that we are afraid of, the thing that we want to hide, is really the juicy part of the story.

[A]

Bingo. No, no, no.

[B]

As storytellers, it is, right?

[A]

Me as a storyteller, if someone. Look, this whole podcast, celebrities like you. I said to myself and I said to my team, I do not want to sit in a chair and fawn over a celebrity. Quite frankly, I don't want to talk about just promoting a movie. I want to talk to them about vulnerability and gratitude and shining a light on someone else.

[B]

That's why this is a good idea.

[A]

I told you, right?

[B]

I told you it was a good idea.

[A]

Another AVA quote. Here we go. Which is perfect for this part of the conversation. You said to the Hollywood Reporter, if you're in a position to open doors, open the door all the way. Don't just crack it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think there are a lot of people doing that. But I also think that in Hollywood, it's a industry that thrives on feeling scarce, scarcity and elite. And this is an upper echelon. And if you're in tv, you're trying to get in film, and if you're in film, you're trying to stay in film. And now you're in this kind of film. But you want to be in an elite film that has an Oscar and you want to. You got an Oscar, now you need another one to show that you weren't a fluke. It's always this chasing kind of thing in order to do that. In order to win a race, you can't really have someone nipping at your heels. It's much better if you're out ahead. And so that creates an environment where let me look like I might be opening a door or say the right things, but not really do it. And I just, I go back to the thing, it's going to be a lot more fun if you, you know, are surrounded by others who are having fun too.

[A]

You know, how I stay ahead is not looking over my shoulder. It's by looking in the mirror. Because I get, I literally torpedo myself if I look at what other people are doing because I start comparing what I'm doing to them. Right. And it makes me unproductive.

[B]

Yeah, well said. Looking in the mirror instead of behind you.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And also in the mirror you can see who's behind you. Technically, but.

[A]

Okay, fine.

[B]

Just saying. I mean, fine.

[A]

I just wanted to point to land.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Thank you. How did Ebert's belief translate into opportunities that you made for others? Right. How did his belief in the little Ava translate into the Ava Empowering Today Women Directors in Queen Sugar Array Indie Films on Netflix. I think you heard me call you a kingmaker and I saw that head go like this, like you know what you're doing and it's with intention to uplift others.

[B]

Yeah, I, I think I do know what I'm doing, but I, I, it's never been calculated. And I, I think that the way Mr. Ebert figures into it is it's simply the act of always having kind of looked out for the next person. I mean, even in stopping on the street and doing this thumbs up photo with a little girl outside the Oscars back in the 80s to stop, there were people that didn't stop, you know, but to stop and to do that, to writing this piece that he didn't have to write, to continuing to tweet about this piece and then to correspond with me about the piece and help me, you know. Do you have a theater in Chicago? Do you need help, you know, to,

[A]

did you ever get to see him? Sit with him?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hug him?

[B]

Yes, yes. Tell me, tell me about that. I was able to, to meet him and, and you know, he was just very kind and you know, at that, at the time that I was able to meet him, he wasn't able to, to speak. So it was very non verbal. I think out of all of the memories that I have of him, their book ended by the first time. I interacted with him at the, on this as a little girl to the last time when I spoke at his funeral. You spoke at his funeral there. Chaz Ebert, who is his wonderful wife, invited me there with a couple of the filmmakers who he really impacted and I had the opportunity to speak a little bit about my experience with him and how that review and his ongoing attention really changed my life. It Was just such an honor.

[A]

But you got to say it to him before he passed.

[B]

I did. Oh, he knew. He knew. I got to email it. I got to say it. I got to. I got to communicate. I think he. He was aware.

[A]

Wow. I wonder how, after his review, your language shifted in talking about films in general. Did it in some way because this mainstream critic had basically just mainstreamed you?

[B]

Well, it did. I mean, it certainly changed. It certainly changed the way I talked about that film and that film. You know, change changed what would go on to happen.

[A]

Were you as confident in talking about the film before his review?

[B]

No. So I would send my little pitch and would be told, no. He says, yes, now I have his review. Oh, you know, I went back. I was like, so he says it's the best film he ever saw. Grief, one of the best films I ever saw on grief. Just wanted to share this Roger Eagle with you. This is the TV version, the radio version, and his 10 tweets. If you'd like to reconsider the pitch now. I mean, I'm a publicist pitching myself. All these people knew me as a publicist, so it was always a little embarrassing to me that I had to pitch myself. But I tell you, there was another woman who had done a review around the same time as Roger, named Kerry Rickey out of Philadelphia, and I had those two reviews, but it was really the Roger review because his TV show and his radio show was national. So now it becomes national. So now there were critics in places that the film wasn't even opening who said, we'll review it. And I was able to book other theaters because of it. And because of the success of I Will Follow, I was able to, in the very next year, we make Middle of Nowhere. I made Middle of Nowhere, and I submitted to Sundance, and on the eighth try, miraculously, it gets in. There was a woman named Shari Freelo who was a big catalyst for me getting in. She's another person that I wanted to make sure I say her name. But I think they were all building blocks on top of another. And when I look at just the trajectory of being able to go from a person who was 32, who had never picked up a camera, to being able to, you know, be at the Oscars with the best Picture nomination for Selma in a very short amount of time, I do not see that trajectory happening the way it did without Roger saying, I will go see this film and I will write about it. I mean, it's a critical turning point.

[A]

All right, I got another Ava Quote. But before I read it, I want to talk about how you and I met. Met.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So I was in Toronto with our friend Oprah, and she had just thrown. Girl, I had the fear. I had FOMO over this. Your birthday party.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Your 50th. And it was in Hawaii.

[B]

It was.

[A]

Well, there were a few, but this was the Hawaii one.

[B]

No, there was only one.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

It was several days long, though.

[A]

I remember seeing the pictures, and I was like, Jesus, Mary and Joseph. And so I say to Oprah, how was that? And she. And before she even talks about how it is, she goes, you should know her. You guys would get along well. Yeah, well, honey, I. Well, took that as my opportunity to slide right into your dms. And I think I said something like, oprah says we should be friends.

[B]

And we take direction very well for her.

[A]

We should meet. That's literally how we met.

[B]

That's how we met.

[A]

Where is that place that we went to in Echo Park? Because I keep trying to tell my partner the food was sensational, but I don't remember.

[B]

It was a little seafood spot.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

What was it? Yeah, I think it's called Found Oyster. I think Found Oyster. I'll check. It was good. We had clam chowder. We ate.

[A]

So good. So good. Okay, this is another AVA quote, which I literally wrote. Wow. And wow around. Cinema has the power to rewrite memory. When we tell the truth on screen, we make room for healing,

[B]

for sure.

[A]

That kind of gave me the chills.

[B]

Oh, well, it's true, though. I mean, I think cinema is an expressive force that changes your energy when you watch. And it changes, you know, when you're watching a film, you are watching images that sit side by side in your head. Memories and movies. Right. At some point, it starts to. I won't say blur, fade, but they start to become. Because the movies, you are on a feeling level, and you watch them on a feeling level.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And the things that you remember, you know, you experience them on a feeling level. That's why you remember them. I think in our minds, we have these two sets of images, the memory and cinema. Images that we watch. Photography, all of that. For some people, it's music. All of this sits in your head, and it starts to create a stew of who you are and how you feel. I mean, art really does that. And so I feel that when you nourish yourself with images, with stories, with music, with things that are health. I won't say healthy, but that are filled with light, even if it's a dark Story. I think Selma is a film that's filled with light. It's a story about a dark time. But there's a triumph within the story that has light in it. And the more that we can kind of allow the light in, things grow from it and things bloom. And so I really feel like cinema is such just a powerful force. I know it is, because we know cinema has been used for propaganda. We know cinema has been used to reinforce the negative things. But also, cinema can show us great beauty. And so when you watch a movie, you should really be aware of its power. You know, when you were watching a movie, you were taking in images into your mind that you may be able to say intellectually, I discern that, you know, this John Wick movie that. Where he killed 113 people in four minutes and just kept going. I know that that's just an action movie, but I think we'd be remiss not to understand the power of some of the things that we allow in.

[A]

You said you were a girl who loved movies, but you didn't, like, dream of being a filmmaker. So I dreamed of doing what I'm doing today. Have you now just accepted, like, this is what I'm gonna do because you've become. Become so damn successful, or are you doing what you feel like you were put on this earth to do?

[B]

No, I definitely feel like I've found my calling. And that's why I think it's important for people to know. And that didn't happen until I was in my 30s.

[A]

Okay, that's important to know.

[B]

I think it's really important people know because you have some people who are very fortunate, like you, who knew really, really early on. I mean, high school, you know, you were on your path to doing this, you know. You know, my partner knew what he wanted to do. His mom says 11 years old, you know, 11 years old. He kind of had this desire for the thing that he loves to do. And I think mine didn't come until I was 30. And there are other people who didn't kind of connect with their calling, if you will, until even later than that. I think it just proves you can always find it. It's there if it hasn't come for you in your early years.

[A]

But I think what's also important to say is that it's okay if it's not like, I always knew. And it's okay if you kind of walk into it or waltz into it. Sometimes you will find it by simply trying different doors.

[B]

And for some people, the calling is the trying. And maybe there isn't one thing that's your thing all the time.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Cause everyone doesn't have that. But it's the trying, it's the checking it out. It's the different experiences. And I think also the calling doesn't always have to be a profession, you know, I mean, there are some people who love to cook for their families, love to garden, love to listen, love to, you know, I mean, it's. What is the thing that kind of makes your heart beat? For me, this is it.

[A]

So I was just about to say the calling is what sets your soul on fire.

[B]

Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed.

[A]

That's the call.

[B]

That's. Could look a lot of different ways.

[A]

And I will, I will say, since we already brought up our, our friend, she said to me, and I'll never forget Oprah said to me, when I see you on television, I realize you were doing exactly what God put you

[B]

on this earth to do. What a beautiful thing to have said.

[A]

I felt, I felt that. Back to Ebert. What? Did you stop doubting about yourself after that review?

[B]

I doubted that I had a filmmaker's voice. I doubted that my story about me and my aunt, you know, was, was interesting enough. Interesting enough to be a film that other people watch. I've since come to know that I am not that unique that the thing that I like, no one else will like. Really, I'm not so unique. That's something that I like, no one else is like.

[A]

Oh, fair, fair, fair, fair.

[B]

I've come to know, in other words,

[A]

it's not all about you, boo.

[B]

I mean, child, if I like it, there's gonna be somebody else there who's like it. Cause I'm not, you know what I mean? I'm not so unique that I like things that no one else in the world likes. If I'm moved by this, I tell people all the time, if you're moved by it, someone else now is it gonna be, you know, marvel level, people going to see it? No, but make your little films tell your small stories, you know, whisper your dreams.

[A]

So how did you start showing up differently after that review? Was it just by more confidence?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And more, more confidence and more belief that oh, my voice like this story.

[A]

I can do this.

[B]

My story about a black woman in her late 20s who nurses her aunt in the last two years before she passes away and moves out of a house resonates with a 60 plus year old man in Chicago who is Dealing with his own, you know, end of life issues, his own mortality. And he can sit there and say, I see myself in this, and I feel connected to it. Just the act of how opposite we were as people in age and gender, in background and all of that. But around grief, it's the great humanizing force. And we. You know, I don't think there's anything that helps people create a more level playing field when it comes to politics or class than to talk about a personal loss, a loss of a loved one, because at that point, everything else strips away and the grief is shared, and we've all felt it, and we know what that is. And so I think that just that idea that he could see himself in that film from a person that was so different from him showed me that, oh, I could reach him. I can reach other people.

[A]

Did Aunt Denise know you were gonna do the film?

[B]

No. No.

[A]

How long after she died did you decide to do it?

[B]

I did not make a film until after she passed away, but I was writing. I wrote Middle of Nowhere while she was alive. And so I was starting to dabble and kind of think about things, but I never made anything that she saw. I think she's up there pulling some strings and making things happen. So I think that she sees everything.

[A]

Did she have kids?

[B]

She didn't.

[A]

Were you like a daughter to her?

[B]

I was me and my two sisters and my two brothers.

[A]

You now sit where others sat in terms of. You can amplify a project with one decision. Right. Like you are now in a place where somebody can say. I've literally had someone say to me, do you think you could get Ava DuVernay to watch this film? That's now where you are. So in terms of paying it forward.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Name a filmmaker you're championing right now and why.

[B]

Wow, that's tough. That's so hard, David. Because if I say one person, it doesn't prioritize them.

[A]

It's an example.

[B]

Oh, don't ask me. I will say that there is a filmmaker that I met. There's a woman that I met. So last year, I made a film called Origin. Yes, of course. And we.

[A]

Great film.

[B]

Thank you. Took that film around the world and was in Geneva, Switzerland, on an invitation to do a retrospective. Some of my films there, and a chance to show Origin in Switzerland. So we go. And whenever you go to a film festival, they assigned you to a person who will kind of take you around, make sure you get to the hotel, get to the screenings, find food. So the woman who Assigned to me in Geneva, Switzerland, was a young black woman. I was like, they found the only. Where'd they get you? Where'd they find you? Okay. But she was a bright, chipper young woman, sister who took such great care of my colleague India and I, who were there, and we loved her. At one point I said, take. Is there a black community here? She said, actually, there is. I'll take you to the few blocks we have. And so we went and she took me around and she said, you know, my dream is to be a filmmaker. I said, well, what do you do for a living? She says, I'm a lawyer. I said, you're a lawyer, but you want to be a filmmaker? She said, yes. I said, well, if you ever decide to actually do that, look me up. Let me know what you do. Six months later, she calls and she says, I took what you said to heart and I've enrolled in a program at ucla. I said, I live in la. She's like, I know. And I just want to let you know that I'm. That I'm doing this and that what you said mattered. And she's now on staff at array. Stop it. She works with us at array. She finished her UCLA program and she's working on the next one.

[A]

That's kind of like Oprah bringing some of the girls from South Africa from the school here to LA to pursue their dreams.

[B]

Absolutely. So she's doing her thing. So her name is Leah and she's an incredible aspiring physician.

[A]

Oh, my God. Shout out to Leia. Before I get to my next Ebert question, I want to ask a very superficial question. Who dresses you? Because every time I see a damn outfit of you somewhere around the world promoting a movie, I'm like, who is dressing that girl? Cuz she is killing it.

[B]

I'm glad you feel that way. It's a very. It's a very lovely woman named Katie. Shout out to Katie, Katie, Katie. Pop. Shever keeps me together. Keeps the waist snatched. David. Gotta keep the waist snatched. But also, I don't like to show my arms. So you will never see me in anything when my arms are shown.

[A]

I didn't notice.

[B]

See, a stylist has to know she doesn't like this. She does like this. He likes this. He likes this. And try to make you seem like normal with all your deficiencies, given that

[A]

you were a publicist. Are you your own now or do you hire somebody to do that for you?

[B]

We take care of all my publicity in house. Pretty much.

[A]

Okay. In house.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Except when we have a big movie. We hire a couple people that we love.

[A]

So I'm going to be hiring a publicist.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So I want to know from you.

[B]

Oh, I have one. This is great.

[A]

Okay. Okay, sure. I'll take a recommendation. That's India in the back laughing like she volunteering people. What is a quality in a publicist that you should look for and or demand?

[B]

First of all, can I just tell you? I loved being a publicist so much.

[A]

Did you?

[B]

If I was not making three movies right now, I would say, david, can I just do it for you? For sure.

[A]

Don't tempt me with a good time. Right.

[B]

I've done that before for Friends and be like, you know what? I'm just gonna handle this campaign for you. Right. Real quick.

[A]

Stop it.

[B]

Let me just call this person, put this together, because I loved it so much.

[A]

Okay, but what should I look for in a public?

[B]

Creativity. Creativity. He wants someone that's going to look at the show, look at you, and figure out the angles that are the untraditional angles, the ways to really, you know, make sure that what you want to say is expressed not just to the usual suspects. Creativity, it's not. It's not. It's not. Here's the list. And call these people and book it. It is a charisma, a convincing, a

[A]

creativity in the way it's pitched and

[B]

sold and what you're pitching and what you're pitching, the way you're pitching it. Making sure that by the time you get off the phone with this person, they're like, I've got to do this. And in order to do that, you have to be creative because these bookers and producers have heard it all. And most of the time, what they're not hearing is any kind of passion or creativity. I watched these last three shows that you did, and you know what? You could. You know what? What really worked? This. My client has this. Or, you know, just finding that way to get it in there.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

We're gonna find you the right person.

[A]

Back to Ebert. What does Ebert level belief look like to you today?

[B]

You know, people going out on a limb for people. I mean, I can't say that he was risking anything. He was so big at that time. But I think certainly doing the extra thing for someone that really have anything to give you back. I mean, a lot of times, you know, a critic might say, I'm gonna do this film that I may not want to do. Or a journalist may say, I'll do it because I, you Know, this studio is big, and they'll give me the next Tom Cruise film or I'll get the exclusive on this. And there's all this bartering and politicking about what stories get done and which ones don't. And I think if you take it out of the realm of the press, ultimately there was nothing he could get from. From doing that. I mean, there was nothing that was gonna come. There was no studio that was gonna give him. There was not gonna be a big ad splashed on Sunset Boulevard with his quote. I mean, he didn't even know if there was gonna be a poster for this thing. You know what I mean? Like, it was just so small. But he did it anyway. And I think that's. That's what I would say is.

[A]

But in the same way, he wasn't doing you a favor.

[B]

No, I don't think.

[A]

And you know, by how he responded, it was just another book of business.

[B]

That's right. That's right. But.

[A]

Which makes it more meaningful.

[B]

That's right. But because he took it seriously.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I really think if you're gonna do something for someone and you're gonna give of yourself, don't do people favors. Take them seriously. Don't feel like, you know, don't. People shouldn't feel like they're owing you shouldn't feel burdened. If you're gonna feel that way, don't do it. You know what I mean? But if you're gonna do it, do it. Give it your all and take them seriously. A paying client or the client that you take pro bono should have the same. You know what I mean? The same weight. If you say you're gonna do it, do it.

[A]

So to that point, when you open a door, right. When you open a door for someone, how do you make sure someone actually walks through it?

[B]

Well, you have to know I've had a lot of. And I've talked with.

[A]

You know where I'm going with that.

[B]

Oh, about the snow. Tell me.

[A]

Well, how do you make. I mean, a lot of times people will open a door.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But there's not a whole lot of help. Help after that.

[B]

Right. It's true. But I think there's also a point where you have to make sure that people can actually walk through it. And in order to do that, you have to open it wide enough, make sure that they have the support to walk through, but they do have to walk through on their own. Like, I've seen people who I've, you know, invited to do things, or I don't Know, if you say, opened a door for that, I can't get you over the threshold.

[A]

I can't step up.

[B]

You've got to step up. Yeah. And I think that when you see someone doing that, that it makes you.

[A]

But you've had the door open, Right? The metaphorical phone call. But it's like there was really nothing after that. So it was like a. A boom, but then it kind of pittered out.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

So I always say, find your people who will walk you, who will open the door, but then help you and check on you on the other side.

[B]

Yeah, I think so. I mean, yeah, it's nice when it happens, but I think there's so many people who are making their way without an open door that even if you get a sliver, you take it.

[A]

Amen.

[B]

And you take it and you run through it. And even if it's just a crack.

[A]

Amen.

[B]

Pry it open more. Leave it more open for the next person.

[A]

If you could speak to the version of yourself before the review. Before the review, what would you tell her?

[B]

Calm down. If. If he doesn't. If he doesn't write back, it's gonna be okay. If he doesn't take your pitches anymore, you know, it was a good run. And you know, and you're not going to be making. Doing publicity for Mary much longer anyway because you're going to be a publicist and you're going to be okay. Just breathe and press send on this email and hope it turns out okay. Because I had a lot of anxiety about even asking him to do it. I think that's a big lesson as well. Like you just have to take the risk to ask for help if you need it.

[A]

It.

[B]

And to do it in a way that doesn't make people feel burdened, but that is offering, you know, presenting a space where they can offer their support. I think that's a big thing, you know, because a lot of people. I am off put sometimes, by the way that people ask.

[A]

Oh, tell me more about that.

[B]

For things that's interesting, you know, with a sense of entitlement, or you should do this, this, or a little too cavalier. I don't like it. I prefer acknowledge that you are asking someone to take time out of their day or do something that they don't have to do that should be acknowledged.

[A]

So frame it for me. How do you prefer people ask something as opposed to how they. As opposed to how they might.

[B]

I like you to lead with what you're already doing.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know, recognize what I Do tell me what you're doing. I can't make this happen for you if you're not doing the work on Queen Sugar. All of those women who were chosen to direct all of those episodes, I handpicked. Each one chose from people who are already doing. People want to get on a moving train, right? If I have a choice and I'm at the station, there are two trains and there's one that's going now, but it's going to be bumpy and we're going to have to go through some snow and there's no food on that train, but it's leaving now. Or this one that I can wait for on the track for two more days. And it's gonna be plush when I get there. I'm getting on and I'm getting out of here. Cause I'm gonna be home by the time you're leaving. People wanna get on a moving train. What are you already doing? I can't start you from a stop. I can push you forward and get you going a little bit faster. But I think it's really, in this day and age, especially in our industry, it's a lot of, help me be like you right now, you know? And I really wanna know, what are you doing? I have people come all the way, come to me all the time. Can I audition for you? I'd be like, well, do you study? Study? I said, are you studying acting? Well, no, I just have natural talent. I said, are you reading any books? Well, no, I'm not reading books. What are you watching? Okay, maybe you don't like books. Maybe you don't have a T shirt. What are you watching? Who do you like? How are you breaking down the performance? If you can't tell me none of that, then, no, you can't audition for me. What are you doing? How are you? What are you bringing to this? And so I think whether it's an audition, whether it's our industry, whether it's whatever it is that you want someone to remember, when you're asking for someone's help, you're asking them to join you on your journey. So you should be on your way somehow.

[A]

Damn, that is good. Think about it like, that's some helpful stuff you just dropped right there.

[B]

Because that's attractive.

[A]

There was one more Ava quote that, I mean, I circled.

[B]

It's like 99 papers, just looking at them, like Einstein.

[A]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. And it is this one. You can lead with kindness and still demand excellence. How do you do that? Because some people struggle with that.

[B]

Yeah, I think I struggle with that. I mean, I try to. I feel like I have a kind heart, but I have a sharp manner. And so I have. I'd say I have an exacting manner. And so I think that for some people who may not be used to the way our industry works, you know, we talk fast, we talk kind of sharp, like we get things done, but there's a. It's all towards the end of making something great. And it's all towards trying to have respect for the other person. And I think. I think kindness. I've heard people say things that sound syrupy and sweet, but they're not kind. You know, just because it's saying, being said softly or even if it's being said doesn't mean that anything's actually going to happen. I think there are a lot of veils around our words and the way that we. What we say and what we do. And so I think my kindness really comes from what I do. I may say it in a bit of a clip sharp way, but my intention is always to help to open up a space, to try to include more people. And I would just warn people to. Just because something sounds good doesn't mean it's good. Sometimes the things that sound a little more rough around the edges, like, don't come to me unless you're already doing something. Right, That's a little sharp. But underneath it is, if you're doing something, you come to me, I'm about to get you through the store. Right? And so just be aware of that idea of kindness because some people use it as. As a disguise. Like you said, some people will open the door only halfway. That's not kind. You know, open it and give people what they need to come through. I'm saying you have to have some velocity to get to the door. But you know, really that idea of kindness, it is. It is a tricky space. And I think true kindness is just a desire to not be sitting at the top alone or to not be sitting anywhere alone to make sure that other people are being treated well. To see someone say something to someone and know it's not right and do something. And your do something may not be get up there and fight with the person who did the wrong thing, but to just put the hand on the person who's been injured or just to check in the next day. There's so many ways we can be kind. If you're really being kind, it's hard to truly be kind. It's much easier to sound kind.

[A]

That was profound. May I end by saying it is a pleasure to know you.

[B]

I'm so glad we took Oprah's advice and got to know each other. I thank you for reaching out on her instruction. I think you are a singular individual. I don't know anyone like you. I so enjoyed and I hope on this show somehow you get to tell your story. If you ever need somebody coming to interview you, count on me. But I think you're in the exact right place. I feel like you're an independent voice and I hope that this grows for you. I think this is the first show of many and I'm glad I got to be around for the beginning.

[A]

What a game gift. What a gift. Ava DuVernay, ladies and gentlemen. I thought you might want to know, but this podcast is at the heart of a company I founded called Do Good Crew. I've spent 25 years telling stories. It used to be the bad news and now I want to focus on the good news. The everyday heroes who are doing extraordinary things. You can join us. We do live events, but we also have a newsletter. It's free. You can sign up for it by going to www.thedogoodcrew.com. this show was created by me, David Begno. Our executive producers are Ellen Rockamora and Olivier Delfoss. Our associate producer is Griffin Hamilton. Our booker is Sully Block. Director of photography is Foster Parks. Our theme music was created by Slipstream, Post Production and edit done by Long Wave Digital. This podcast was brought to you by our friends at Canva. If you're interested in more stories about people doing good in this world, go sign up for our free newsletter at www.thedogoodcrew.