How Companies Are Quietly Robbing You! With Lindsay Owens

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Personal Finance Podcast

Episode: How Companies Are Quietly Robbing You! With Lindsay Owens

Host: Andrew Giancola
Guest: Lindsay Owens (Executive Director, Groundwork Collaborative)
Date: May 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the rise of “surveillance pricing” and dynamic pricing models powered by AI, revealing how companies are using personal data to charge consumers different prices for the same goods and services. Host Andrew Giancola and guest Lindsay Owens discuss real-world examples (like the recent JetBlue incident), the legality and ethics of these practices, which industries are most affected, potential consumer strategies, and what needs to happen on a policy level to protect shoppers.

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Key Themes and Segments

1. The JetBlue Incident: Confession in Plain Sight

[07:21–09:07]

• A viral JetBlue customer service tweet advised a frustrated customer to use incognito mode to avoid being overcharged—an unintentional admission that customer data directly affects airline ticket pricing.
• Quote, Lindsay Owens (07:59):
  “The customer service representative at JetBlue [was] basically tweeting a cold-blooded confession saying, look, if you don't want us to rip you off, try tricking us, right?... It was really a stunning admission.”
• JetBlue later claimed it was an error, but the underlying issue is that companies are using consumers' own data to tailor prices, often at the consumer’s expense.

2. What is Surveillance Pricing?

[12:16–15:17]

• Surveillance pricing is defined as “the practice of spying on you in order to better overcharge you.”
• Companies collect mass amounts of data: location, purchase history, device usage, even mouse movements and browser behaviors.
• With AI, companies can now predict an individual’s willingness to pay with surgical precision (“individualized demand curve”).
• Memorable analogy, Owens (14:12):
  “Thousands of years ago… we haggled... But for 150 years now, we kind of cut that shit out and we got a price tag… It is really, I think, unsettling and creepy that it seems to be eroding right before our very eyes.”

3. How Widespread is This Practice?

[15:17–20:25]

• Over 250 companies (across airlines, groceries, rideshares, retail, etc.) use dynamic AI pricing tools (FTC findings).
• It’s most prevalent and easiest in e-commerce due to individual customer isolation and the ability to experiment with A/B pricing tests.
• Example, Owens (15:59):
  “My organization ran an experiment… that exposed the fact that Instacart was running experiments… The result was that some shoppers were being charged up to 23% more for the same item as other shoppers.”
• Even brick-and-mortar giants like Kroger generate significant revenue from selling loyalty program customer data.

4. Are Any Companies Still “Good Actors”?

[18:36–20:25]

• A few exceptions exist, such as:
  • Savannah Bananas (flat pricing, no junk fees, tickets by lottery)
  • Costco (cost-plus pricing, transparent membership models).
• Good actors are rare, and even these sometimes use variable pricing in limited, transparent ways.

5. Dynamic Pricing in Physical Stores: The “Digital Shelf”

[21:05–27:59]

• Walmart and others are piloting electronic shelf labels—price tags that can change instantly, remotely, store-wide.
• Ostensible benefits include labor savings and food waste reduction, but the infrastructure enables rapid, possibly individualized, price hikes.
• Quote, Owens (22:14):
  “...The flip side of discounting that bread right before expiration date is they could also hike up the cost of the ice cream when the temperature hits 90 degrees.”

Hypothetical Dystopian Scenarios

[24:26 and 27:00]

• Algorithms could use real-time factors: weather, local events, in-store inventory—potentially even change the price of an item while you stand in front of it.
• Analogy, Owens (26:46):
  “It feels like you're in a sort of perverted nightmarish game of the Price is Right... and Bob Barker is... messing around with the prices.”

6. Transparency, Regulation, and Consumer Response

[31:59–36:40]

• Most of the surveillance pricing practices exist in a regulatory gray area.
• Companies often claim data is only used for offering discounts—but “if you get a discount and I don't, I got charged more than you.”
• When caught, firms (like Wendy's or Instacart) often walk practices back in response to backlash.
• Consumer strategies (32:29):
  1. It shouldn’t be the consumer’s job to “bob and weave and duck and dodge” to avoid getting ripped off.
  2. Blow the whistle: consumer backlash can force companies to retreat from bad practices.
  3. Update how you comparison shop: compare not just across stores, but within stores, between apps, websites, and multiple user accounts.
  4. Try incognito mode, dummy accounts, alternate browsers—but these are limited and burdensome.

7. Why It Hurts Everyone—Especially Bargain Shoppers and the Poor

[42:41–50:45]

• Lack of transparent, stable pricing undermines consumers’ ability to budget and erodes mechanisms that keep markets competitive.
• Quote, Owens (44:06):
  “Bargain shoppers are good for the economy, right? They play a really important role in keeping businesses honest, in keeping prices competitive.”
• The burden of dynamic pricing especially hurts the most desperate—those unable to plan or wait, who face “usurious” rates in credit markets, or must buy essential goods when prices surge.

8. What Data Are Companies Using?

[45:25–47:55]

• First, proxies: zip code, device (i.e., Mac vs. PC), etc.
• Next, fine-grained behavioral data: loyalty programs, purchase history.
• Now, increasingly, direct interaction: conversational chatbots (e.g., Walmart’s “Sparky”), which can extract intentions and willingness-to-pay directly from the consumer.
• This powerful mix allows for real-time, highly individualized pricing experimentation.

9. Policy Efforts and The Need for Change

[51:01–52:02]

• Several US states (NY, CO, HI, CA, MD, TN, PA) are working on laws to limit or ban surveillance/dynamic pricing, with disclosure requirements for algorithmic pricing.
• Consumer activism and public backlash have proven effective in stopping or slowing some of these practices.

10. Competition and Consumer Pushback as Remedies

[52:30–53:53]

• When consumers and competitors (e.g., American and Southwest vs. Delta over dynamic ticket prices) push back, companies adjust.
• Exposing these practices publicly is key—“once you expose it... consumer backlash and regulation... can start to take root.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the erosion of fixed pricing:
  “For 150 years now, we kind of cut that shit out and we got a price tag... It is really, I think, unsettling and creepy that it seems to be eroding right before our very eyes.”
  — Lindsay Owens (14:12)

• On consumer responsibility:
  “From the bottom of my heart, I do not believe that it should be each consumer's job to bob and weave and duck and dodge and figure out how to beat the machine to not get ripped off.”
  — Lindsay Owens (32:29)

• On AI’s growing influence:
  “A big part of the AI race is how to monetize AI. And shopping and commerce will be a big part of that.”
  — Lindsay Owens (47:20)

• On the impact to budgeting and fairness:
  “Not having posted prices, predictable prices, stable prices, undermines our ability to budget.”
  — Lindsay Owens (43:25)

• Re: JetBlue’s revealing tweet:
  “If you don't want us to rip you off, try tricking us.”
  — (Paraphrasing JetBlue’s exposed logic, 07:59)

• On the “good actors”:
  “One example I like to use is the Savannah Bananas... another company that I like is Costco.”
  — Lindsay Owens (19:05)

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Episode Timeline / Timestamps

• 07:21–09:07: JetBlue incident and direct admission of price manipulation
• 12:16–15:17: Surveillance pricing explained; historical context
• 15:17–20:25: Prevalence of dynamic pricing and Instacart experiment
• 21:05–27:59: Digital shelf tags, Walmart, and real-time price changes in physical stores
• 31:59–36:40: What, if anything, can consumers do? Whistleblowing, comparison shopping, and system workarounds
• 42:41–44:26: Dangers to budgeting and loss of market competitiveness
• 45:25–47:55: The layers of data used in dynamic pricing
• 51:01–52:02: State-level regulatory efforts
• 52:30–53:53: How competition and backlash can discourage bad pricing practices
• 54:03–57:39: Lindsay Owens’ forthcoming book "Gouged"—what she wants readers to take away

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Suggested Best Actions for Listeners

• Stay Informed: Awareness is the first defense—recognize where dynamic pricing is happening.
• Comparison Shop Smarter: Check prices across platforms, in and out of accounts, and with different devices.
• Speak Out: Consumer backlash works—publicly expose unfair pricing, contact companies, and press for regulation.
• Support Policy Change: Push state and federal lawmakers for price transparency laws and restrictions on surveillance pricing.
• Protect Your Data: Where possible, limit data sharing (loyalty programs, logged-in sales), use privacy tools and browsers.

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Closing Thought

Companies’ push for AI-driven, individualized pricing is rapidly reshaping the consumer landscape—often quietly, behind the scenes, and at the expense of individual fairness and transparency. Owens and Giancola make clear: unless consumers, lawmakers, and regulators push back, the era of the fixed price may soon disappear, replaced by a world where everyone pays a different—and potentially arbitrary—price for the same product.

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Preorder Lindsay Owen’s book "Gouged: The End of a Fair Price and What That Means for Your Wallet" (releases Sept 29, 2026) at your preferred bookseller.

For more information, advocacy, and to follow Lindsay’s work, visit Groundwork Collaborative.

Transcript

[Andrew]

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[Lindsay Owens]

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[Podcast Host]

Why don't you just go and look for the flight in incognito mode and you'll be able to save yourself 200 plus dollars. So can you kind of talk through this whole situation? What did JetBlue quietly reveal? Your data being used and your prices could be changing over time and it could be just a huge shift in what you're paying compared to someone else. Is this something that is even legal? Are they operating in a gray area right here or what is. What are the laws around this? They're just going to get better and better at shifting these prices based on what we are willing to pay. And I think that's the concern that I think a lot of us consumers have because if it get too good, it's going to be one of those things where I feel as though we could be overpaying in a lot of different categories than what we actually originally would pay. Over 250 companies are using these AI pricing models or tools with firms like MasterCard, McKenzie, Accenture and a bunch of other companies that are out there. So are these tools kind of now everywhere? Are you seeing this across the board with a bunch of different companies? Uber did things like they raised prices on folks who had low battery and Orbit's raised prices on on hotels or people who, you know, had MacBooks. We just get used to this like we get used to dynamic pricing and a sudden this becomes a way of life. And then we're

[Andrew]

on this episode of the Personal Finance Podcast how companies are quietly robbing you. Oh what's up everybody and welcome to the Personal Finance Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew, founder of Mastermoney Co. And today on the personal finance podcast, we're going to be talking to Lindsay O. About why companies are quietly robbing you. If you guys have any questions, make

[Podcast Host]

sure you join the Master Money newsletter by going to MasterMoney Co newsletter. And don't forget to follow us on

[Andrew]

Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or whatever podcast

[Podcast Host]

player you love listening to this podcast on. And if you want to help out

[Andrew]

the show, consider leaving a five star

[Podcast Host]

rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite podcast player.

[Andrew]

Now today we're going to be diving into one of the scariest things that

[Podcast Host]

I have seen as of recent, especially for as consumers because companies are now

[Andrew]

using AI powered tools to charge you a different price than the person standing next to you. And this is going to be based

[Podcast Host]

on your own personal data.

[Andrew]

Now this is something called surveillance pricing

[Podcast Host]

and it's already been used in over

[Andrew]

250 companies across industries like airlines, groceries, rideshare and retail. And JetBlue accidentally just blew the lid

[Podcast Host]

off this entire process where they were charging a customer over $200 more for

[Andrew]

the same seat and they gave him

[Podcast Host]

some tips on Twitter on how to avoid those charges.

[Andrew]

And so today we're going to be diving into some of the crazy price

[Podcast Host]

fluctuations that we could see over the course of the next couple of years.

[Andrew]

Especially in the day and age of AI, this is getting wackier and wackier.

[Podcast Host]

In fact, Walmart has these new pricing

[Andrew]

price tags that are dynamic in store

[Podcast Host]

now that they're going to be testing out on customers. And the weird thing is a lot

[Andrew]

of these companies are saying actually we're

[Podcast Host]

just doing this to help you save money. But in reality, we know these for profit companies are patenting all different kinds of technology that is going to help them dynamically price things based on who is actually looking at that specific item. Now the scary part about this is is all of this is happening legally

[Andrew]

and this is a gray area that

[Podcast Host]

has not caught up to regulators yet.

[Andrew]

This is why I brought in today's

[Podcast Host]

guest, Lindsey Owens, who is the executive director at Groundwork Collaborative and is one

[Andrew]

of the leading voices in exposing for

[Podcast Host]

corporate pricing manipulation in America.

[Andrew]

And she's going to break down exactly

[Podcast Host]

what's happening, who is doing it and

[Andrew]

what you can do about it. This is an episode you do not want to miss.

[Podcast Host]

It is fascinating what is happening across

[Andrew]

all retailers across the board, including how you shop online.

[Podcast Host]

So without further ado, let's welcome Lindsey to the personal finance podcast

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[Podcast Host]

the Personal Finance Podcast.

[Lindsay Owens]

Thanks so much for having me. Really looking forward to the conversation today.

[Podcast Host]

I Think there is a ton of great things that we're going to be able to talk through today because there is a big shift in the way that consumers are going to have to think about pricing and some of the things that are happening right now. And I want to kind of start this off by talking about the JetBlue incident that just happened over the course of the last week or so, where a customer was kind of tweeting out how they were frustrated with JetBlue and the pricing changes in just one day. And JetBlue kind of responded to that tweet with a comment that said, hey, why don't you just go and look for the flight in incognito mode and you'll be able to save yourself 200 plus dollars. So can you kind of talk through this whole situation? What did JetBlue quietly reveal?

[Lindsay Owens]

Yeah, this was just an incredible story. I mean, by the way, the guy who tweeted was trying to get to a funeral and was trying to book his flight obviously was a must buy ticket. Didn't want to miss this important moment. And you know, the customer service representative at JetBlue basically tweeting a cold blooded confession saying, look, if you don't want us to rip you off, try tricking us, right? Try logging out of your browser, going into incognito mode, clearing your cookies, and then maybe we won't gouge you or overcharge you on the way to a funeral. It was really a stunning admission. Of course, you know, JetBlue saying that the tweet was an error. But you know, really the only error was, was that they got caught with their pants down here, admitting that they use your data in setting pricing. And if you don't want your data used in pricing, you're going to have to bob and weave and duck and dodge and try to figure out a way to hide from their new pricing software.

[Podcast Host]

This has got to be one of those things that for me as a consumer, I just keep looking at this and it honestly kind of scares me because it's one of those areas where you think about your data being used and your prices could be changing over time and it could be just a huge shift in what you're paying compared to someone else. Is this something that is even legal? Are they operating in a gray area right here? Or what is, what are the laws around this?

[Lindsay Owens]

Yeah, I mean, this is what economists call price discrimination, right? This idea that, you know, you might be willing a little willing to pay a little bit more than me and therefore I should charge you a little bit more than me, or maybe you are a little more expensive than me, and so I've got to charge you a little more to clear my costs. You know, price discrimination is not new. We're really used to price discrimination in certain settings. Right. When we buy car insurance, we know that we're going to get charged more if we're, you know, a bad driver. It used to be the case that health insurance companies could charge you more if you had a family history of illnesses because they thought you were more likely to need more medical care. Of course, you know, during the Obama administration, Congress passed the Affordable Care act and said, actually, no, we're not going to let health insurance companies charge you more than me if your family history suggests that you're more likely to need medical care than me. So we've had price discrimination in a whole host of industries for a long time, but what. What we're seeing now is something really different. We're seeing price discrimination used in all sorts of settings in which there's no plausible business case for it. Right. It doesn't cost, you know, J. Crew more to make your sweater than my sweater. They just think you might be willing to pay a little more for your sweater than I'm willing to pay for my sweater. Although if they're any good, they probably know that you are. You are really good and are probably going to get less, you know, pay less than me. Right. But, you know, this is. This is starting to seep into all sorts of commerce areas. You know, it's been with us for a long time that companies used our data in advertising. Right? We've all had that experience where we hovered over a swimsuit on Instagram, and then the next day, you know, every other ad was the swimsuit being served back to us because they thought, oh, you know, she was really close to buying it. We'll just send it to her one more time. Right? And, um, but now it's not just sort of the surveillance advertising where they're tracking what you might want and sending it back to you. They're also tracking what you want, how much you might be willing to pay for it, and sending it back to you at a price point. Tailored, bespoke, just for you. And so that's really the difference here.

[Podcast Host]

And that's the fascinating part about this. It feels like this is the beginning of a shift in the way that things are priced. And I want to kind of talk through some of these scenarios that you're alluding to here, because I think there's some really interesting stuff that's happening that most consumers don't even know is going on in the background right now. And one of them that you mentioned is surveillance pricing. I think surveillance pricing is something that, you know, can you kind of walk us through how this works? Because does someone like Target know that you're sitting in the middle of a parking lot right now and they're going to, you know, shift the pricing based

[Andrew]

on that or what?

[Podcast Host]

What is surveillance pricing and how does this kind of work?

[Lindsay Owens]

Yeah, put simply, surveillance pricing is the practice of spying on you in order to better overcharge you. So things Americans love being spied on, being overcharged. That's why we all hate this. I mean, it really is kind of this intersection of the worst of the worst. Right. But the idea is that companies are able to collect a lot of data about us. Sometimes we give it away freely. Right? We log in to the Starbucks app before we buy our Starbucks. And so we're ponying up all sorts of data, our location data, what our favorite items are, that we have a sweet tooth, and so we get a cookie with our coffee at 2pm Right? We're giving them our history freely because we're logging in. Sometimes they're partnering with third parties and buying data about us. Sometimes they're collecting data that we don't realize we're giving away freely, like tracking our mouse movements, looking at what we hover over, and they're amalgamating all that data and using it to basically create a sort of individualized demand curve for us to estimate with some level of precision exactly how much we're willing to pay for an item so that they extract all of what economists call the consumer surplus. Right? If you are interested in a sweater, and I'm a jian the sweater, and you're likely to pay 20, and I'm likely to pay 30. You know, they could set the price at 25 and see if you'll come up to 25. But why on earth would they set the price for 25 for me, if they know I'll pay 30, they should go to 30. And so what they're able to do with this data is get closer and closer to finding out exactly how much we're willing to pay for every single item in our grocery cart, every single item we purchase online, sometimes even in store, and then charge us the most possible for each of those items. And that's really what the kind of future, the dystopian future of surveillance pricing, you know, really suggests, by the way, you Know, a long time ago, thousands of years ago, this was sort of common practice as well. We haggled, right. We went to the marketplace and the, you know, the guy who side of sized us up and said, oh, like she's in a nice tunic and some gold sandals. We'll charge her a little more. Right? But, you know, for 150 years now, we kind of cut that shit out and we got a price tag. Right? Right. And the price tag was a posted transparent price that was fair. And you and I paid the same amount if we bought the same thing at the same time. Right. You know, absent a coupon, we basically paid the same amount. And that really, you know, there was no law that that required it per se, although, I mean, there, you know, some laws around posted prices, but no law that required us each to. To pay the same. But it was just sort of a norm in the marketplace, a norm in our society. And it is really, I think, unsettling and creepy that it seems to be eroding right before our very eyes.

[Podcast Host]

It truly is. And I think that's the fascinating part. Especially in the age of AI, they're just going to get better and better at shifting these prices based on what we are willing to pay. And I think that's the concern that I think a lot of us consumers have, because if it gets too good, it's going to be one of those things where I feel as though we could be overpaying in a lot of different categories than what we actually originally would pay. And I think this is something that's interesting that, that has been talked about a couple of times, but the FTC just kind of found out that over 250 companies are using these AI pricing models or tools with firms like MasterCard, McKinsey, Accenture, and a bunch of other companies that are out there. So are these tools kind of now everywhere? Are you seeing this across the board with a bunch of different companies, or are there certain industries that you see this more often than maybe others?

[Lindsay Owens]

Yeah, well, look, in E Commerce it is easy as pieces to set up a scenario in which you and I are charged differing amounts for different items. There are a few reasons for that. One, you know, if we were standing in line together as we were checking out with the same item, and you were charged more than me, and you know, I was sort of, you're sort of bagging your groceries and you see that the. The ticket rings up lower for me, you'd be like, what the hell, right? And I actually would probably be mad on your Behalf, too. We would look at each other and we'd look up at the, at the cashier and say, hey, you made a mistake here. You overcharged him. But of course, when we're, you know, when we're atomized, isolated, alone, it's very easy for them to charge us different amounts because I have no idea what you're. You're being charged for in a given item, right? So E commerce is easy. It's also really easy in E commerce settings for companies to run experiments to sort of a b, test different prices and sort of calibrate exactly how much they can charge for any given item. My organization participated and ran an experiment that exposed the fact that Instacart was running experiments on American grocery shoppers online, testing out different prices. And the result was that some shoppers were being charged up to 23% more for the same item as other shoppers. And it was just Instacart kind of treating us all like, you know, lab rats and their giant, you know, online maze. Right. And testing exactly what they could get away with, pricing wise. So, yeah, I mean, I think it is really widespread. The question to me is really, you know, how many companies are doing this without our knowledge? How much is this happening that we're unaware of? Because it's hard for us to track. It's not illegal yet in many settings. And so, you know, it's hard for us to know when we're being, you know, the victim of different forms of experimental pricing or surveillance pricing.

[Andrew]

It's so true.

[Podcast Host]

And I even see it across the board sometimes where I will try to kind of play with different platforms that I go on, whether it's Amazon or Target or Walmart or wherever else. And I would kind of see online that the pricing shifts over time for certain items. And I've tried to use tools like Camel, Camel, Camel, or there's other tools out there like Keepa, where you can kind of figure out what the pricing is, you know, previously on Amazon and what the pricing has been for other folks. But it still isn't as accurate as I would like it to be. But I can kind of see this even happening across the board with many retailers online in my own experience. And so you've got all these companies doing this, companies from airlines to groceries, we've seen it across from ride sharing to travel booking. Are there any industries that aren't doing this that you've seen in your research, Todd?

[Lindsay Owens]

You know, I don't know that I've come across a ton of companies that aren't using data, right? And increasingly, you know, even brick and mortar grocery stores like Kroger, a big book of business for them is actually selling your data. Kroger's data arm is, you know, very, very revenue positive because people use loyalty programs at companies like Kroger. You know, they collect a lot of data on you and they sell it. So I mean, online, brick and mortar happening everywhere. You know, I recently wrote a book about this topic and I forced myself to think through some of the better actors in this space and I came up with a couple of examples. Not very, it was, it was tough. One example I like to use is the Savannah Bananas, which is, you know, kind of a fun family friendly baseball league. They have said kind of outright that they have a fans first kind of flat pricing model. No junk fees, no add ons, no, no dynamic pricing. Right. If you don't pay five times as much for a Savannah Banana seat if you get the last ticket, right. They lottery off tickets and everyone has an equal chance of getting a ticket at a, at a good price. Another company that I like is Costco. I think, you know, they have a cost plus pricing model, right? This idea that they keep the plus part of that they cover their costs of course for selling the items, but they keep the plus to, you know, try, try to keep it to 15 or less. So, so that's a company that I like. Although they do have some variable pricing in their membership model. Although at least it's transparent, right? You know what you're getting if you pay for the premium membership. Yeah, but yeah, I don't, I don't have a lot of good examples, sadly.

[Podcast Host]

Those are some great ones. And I've even seen like the Savannah Bananas founder kind of talking through that. I think they eat a bunch of taxes and stuff like that too just from the way that they sell their tickets. So it's a really interesting model and they, I, I've heard him say we lose, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars every single year. And it's still one of those things that we are willing to do because we want to put our fans first, which I think is very cool. And one of those things that is a, is a very cool story. Now another thing I want to talk through is Walmart and this digital shelf idea because I want to think through kind of, this is one of those areas that I heard you talk about this and it just blew my mind because I never heard anybody else actually kind of talk through some of this stuff. So can you kind of explain what the Digital shelf is first for listeners who have never heard of this.

[Lindsay Owens]

Yeah, so digital shelf tags, electronic shelf labels are relatively new to the United States, but they've actually been in Europe for a really long time. And, and basically it's just, you know, an electronic price tag that's on the shelf in front of the item. You know, just a little sort of pixelated screen where the company can, you know, change the price effectively remotely. Right. HQ can set a price and send it to any Walmart store in the United States. And you know, companies use electronic shelf labels for a whole host of reasons. One reason is to save on labor costs. Right. It's cheaper to automate pricing than it is to have humans doing pricing. Another reason that they might use electronic shelf labels, and this has happened in Europe, is to cut down on food waste, right. To say, okay, we've got a bunch of bread that expires tomorrow, let's lower the price quickly to see if we can get as many loaves sold tonight so we don't have to throw them away.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Lindsay Owens]

So there are some good reasons or maybe some business reasons to use electronic shelf labels in stores. But of course the flip side of discounting that bread right before expiration date is they could also hike up the cost of the ice cream when the temperature hits 90 degrees. And they know people are going to be coming in for, for popsicles and ice cream and ice cold Coke. Right. And so it really does build the sort of back end infrastructure to be able to deploy dynamic pricing in brick and mortar stores at scale. And when Walmart announced that they were going to be moving in this direction and electronic shelf labels in every Walmart store by the end of the year, I think, you know, consumers rightly started to get really worried about this. And you know, Walmart swore up and down that they wouldn't do dynamic pricing. But you know, when you interview people like supermarket guru and folks like that know it's only a matter of time before, before they unwind that promise. And you know, the other thing we know is Walmart has been building all sorts of new dynamic pricing technologies, applying for patents on those dynamic pricing technologies and receiving patents for those dynamic pricing technologies. So for me personally, I'm, I'm very skeptical that that's not where we're headed here with stores like Walmart. And I think it's sort of beggars belief that there's deploying a technology like this, patenting, you know, systems to exploit a technology like this and then saying that they don't actually plan to use a technology in this way, if history

[Podcast Host]

ever repeats itself, we know, well, they're going to just slowly start to shift that over time where we all forget that promise that they made. And there's going to be just a shift in some of this pricing. So I agree with you. I think that's one of those areas where it's hard to be optimistic about them keeping that promise long term. Especially, you know, someone like Walmart who has been a powerhouse for, for so long. So the way that this works is basically, hey, we have these labels on the shelf and do they adjust? Like, for example, like if I went and bought something, you know, and then you came along five minutes later and bought the same loaf of bread, the same example, would you pay a different price than I would? Based on this dynamic pricing, and especially if they're using things like AI, would this kind of just shift in real time?

[Lindsay Owens]

Yeah, I mean, look, we don't know exactly how this is going to play out, but I'll give you some hypotheticals. You know, the first thing that I think is really interesting is a lot of this price adjustment could happen with no human intervention at all. Right? You can create a model, an algorithm that says, hey, when there are four cans of soup left on the shelf and it's a snowstorm, juice the price by x percent, right? When it reaches 90 degrees, juice the price of ice cream by x percent, right? You could do all of that remotely. It wouldn't even require, you know, human intervention. Right? You got a computer algorithm. It's checking the weather, it's keeping up to date with, with supply in the store. It has a good sense of how much supply there is in each location. It adjusts accordingly. Of course, it doesn't have to operate that way. We know in some of our European examples that there are companies that don't adjust prices dynamically using electronic shelf labels during the day. They only adjust it at night when the store is closed so that, you know, shoppers won't experience what you just described. This, this idea that you and I come in, you know, like I get stopped at a red light and you don't, and all of a sudden your, your basket of groceries is $20 less than me. I mean, that feels really, like vexing. Just the idea that it is so out of your control, right? Just like by mere minutes, you missed a deal and I got screwed. Right. So, you know, doing something overnight I think is one way to avoid that. We also know there have been proposals for, you know, suggesting that when we do use Dynamic pricing technologies. We do them in a really transparent way. So we only adjust the price once a day and we, and every store does it at 6am and then, you know, for the next 24 hours, the stores have to compete against each other based on who put the lowest price up at 6am Right. So I think there's a whole host of ways we could see this going that, that maybe is less frustrating. But yes, I think the possibility for pricing to shift at a moment's notice is real. And, and I mean, I think the even weirder possibility is that the price changes like while you are standing in front of the shelf, right. You're sort of choosing between the Campbell's soup and the rall's soup, and all of a sudden the Campbell's price ticks up and, and you take the rals or something. Right. So it's, you know, it feels like you're in a sort of perverted nightmarish game of the Price is Right or something. And Bowed Barker is like, you know, behind the refrigerator door with a cigar, just kind of like messing around, messing around with the prices. Right. It, it is a really scary thought.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, it is. And it makes me think of a couple. And another, like, funny scenario with that is like, what if you pick up the item, the price is one thing, and by the time you get to the register, it's already shifted by the time you kind of are starting to check out. I think that's another interesting part of the dynamic. And it also makes me think about, like, I live in Florida, for example, so here when we have hurricanes coming, people have a mad scramble towards food and towards water and those types of things. It reminds me of also, like Covid, we had some weird toilet paper raid for some reason that the whole country kind of went after toilet paper and they could dynamically price some of that stuff. And that stuff could be really expensive and people just kind of panic buy in some of these situations. And so it's a very interesting thing to kind of see what is going to happen going forward with some of this stuff. What are some of the regulations going to be or how are stores going to make sure that, you know, people don't just freak out or get, you know, frustrated based on some of these prices changing. I think that's going to be a very interesting thing to watch. So how does Walmart kind of justify some of these new technologies? And you know, is this something that they're using right now? Are they already using dynamic pricing on some of their shelves right now?

[Lindsay Owens]

Yeah, look, we don't know a ton about what's happening under the hood at Walmart, right? We're piecing this together from public announcements, from our analysis of their patent applications and the patents that they've been granted. And we also listen really closely in on their earnings call. Right. And often, you know, CEOs tend to be a little too loose lipped on earnings calls. I think for their own good. They're, they're often sort of boasting to investors and shareholders because, you know, they like to juice their stock price on earnings calls because their compensation is often tied to the stock price. But then sometimes they say things that consumers aren't so excited about. We were listening in on the, the most recent earnings call at Walmart and they were really crowing about how much revenue Sparky is driving. Sparky is the new kind of AI bot embedded in the Walmart website and app where you can ask Sparky questions. And, you know, it sounds like Sparky is getting really good at closing deals and making sure you check out with everything in your cart. Right? And so they're saying, you know, 30%, 35% boost in revenue for shoppers using Sparky compared to shoppers who are not using Sparky, for example. Right. But look, you know, we don't know exactly what they're doing, but when we study these patents, you know, look, they are building a machinery to collect legions of consumer data. And they also have a data side just like Kroger that is very lucrative. I think it's called Scintilla, is their, is their data arm at Walmart. And they're collecting data from browsers on Walmart.com and in the In Store app, they're collecting data about what you put in your cart and don't purchase what you hover on and don't click on what you buy together. At the same time, people who buy X also buy Y, right? All of those things, they have your geolocation because when you're logged in in an app, you're often, you know, they're often tracking your location. Similarly, your IP address when you log in on the website. All of that is being used, they're saying, and some of the patents that it's being used to predict, you know, sort of demand, like how much they should be, you know, using it for basically supply chain management, right. How much they should be stocking for any given item. But it's not hard to see a world in which that will be ported over and used for pricing. They're also saying right now that they're primarily using it for personalized offers or discounts. This is really interesting because it's something that companies, when they sort of get caught in the surveillance pricing, you know, when consumers catch them doing surveillance pricing, they often say, oh, it's just going to be for discounts. Or, or when they are doing, like when Wendy's rolled out electronic shelf menu boards at the drive thru, they said, oh, we're just going to do discounts. But you know, the truth is, like, if you get a discount and I don't, I got charged more than you, that's, that's price discrimination. Right? That's surveillance pricing. And if they're using that information to say, hey, I think she's a sure thing, let's make sure we don't send her a discount. And, and you're offered a discount, you know, we're off. We're, we're paying different amounts. And so it, there really is kind of a distinction without a difference here whether or not they're using the surveillance pricing for discounts or for upcharges. And the truth is, anyone who's using surveillance pricing for discounts is probably mere minutes away from flipping the algorithm in reverse and seeing what they can capture on the upcharge side as well. So this is what we know they're up to. This is what they're applying for patents for. And you know, the other thing I'll say that these patents suggest is that they're getting, they're spending a lot of time on building new technologies for pricing. Right. And this is a big book of business for the company. And, you know, they're not just spending time designing these systems. They're, they're patenting them. They're protecting their intellectual property, which to me suggests that they see that it could be quite lucrative for them.

[Podcast Host]

Exactly. And it's just one of those areas where, you know, you have one bad quarter or something like that, and this is an easy switch to flip on where you can have that dynamic pricing increase revenue dramatically. So I think it's a huge, huge thing that we see looming overhead for sure. And I think it's one of those areas that we just got to keep thinking through. Is there anything based on some of the research you've done or what you've seen thus far that you think consumers can do to avoid being ripped off by some of this dynamic pricing? Or is this just one of those things that our hands are kind of tied and we just can't really shop at that location if we don't want to be dealing with dynamic pricing.

[Lindsay Owens]

Yeah. I think there are three things. The first thing I'll say, I always say when I get this question, and it's not meant to be a punt, but from the bottom of my heart, I do not believe that it should be each consumer's job to bob and weave and duck and die and figure out how to beat the machine to not get ripped off. I think markets work better when they are fair and honest. When prices are transparent and predictable, it allows for comparison shopping, it keeps prices competitive, it allows for budgeting. And I think lawmakers should step in and kick this shit to the curb before it gets any more widespread. The second thing I'll say is one important thing consumers can do is blow the whistle. These companies do respond to consumer backlash. And we have seen a number of times over the last few years when companies got caught engaging in these practices and consumers balked, they rolled these practices back or put them back on the shelf. And throughout history, consumers have actually been a really good bulwark against some of the worst excessives of corporate pricing practices. And I'll give you my favorite example, which is in the 1990s, the CEO of Coke, the Coca Cola company, his name was Doug Avestor at the time, gave an interview to a Brazilian news outlet in which he said Coke was piloting installing thermometers on vending machines so they could hike prices of Cokes on hot days. And this is before things went viral on TikTok. And still it was the shot heard around the world. It was on the front page of every major newspaper from Honolulu to Philadelphia to the Wall Street Journal. Not exactly a consumer, you know, paper. Right. It's really usually on the side of business saying, this is outrageous. I can't believe this happened. And Pepsi weighed in and said, we would never do that. We're in the business of quenching thirst, not exploiting it. And Coke had to very quickly walk back their. Their plans, you know, oh, we were just. It was just a hypothetical. We're not actually working on this. We would never do this. Right. So I do really think, you know, shows like this, people who pay attention to shows like this, who weigh in on issues like this, that is just actually a really important part of the process. Like in the absence of. Of laws in the space which we need, that's a good option. You know, so short of calling your lawmaker, what can you do, you know, offer two kind of tips? Again, I wish that you didn't have to do this, but, you know, here we are. The first is, I would say just kind of update how you think about what it means to comparison shop. So it used to be that when you comparison shop you, you picked out something you wanted like a TV and you looked at store A and store B. You compared across stores or you compared two TV types. Now you also have to comparison shop sort of within stores. So look at how much it cost in a brick and mortar store. Look at how much it costs on the website. Look at how much it costs on a third party website. Look at how much of it costs if you log into your app and purchase it. Ask your husband to log in and see if he gets a better price, right? So I think just sort of updating your, your model of comparison shopping is one good option. And another good option is kind of, you know, they figure out what you're willing to pay by experimenting on you. You know, one option you have is to try to experiment a little bit on them, right? You know, get a few friends in a room before you order an Uber, figure out who gets the lowest price, go with them, right? So there are sort of, I think ways to try to at least get a little bit, a little bit better data yourself about where better pricing might be. And then look, you know, you can try all of the things that you mentioned. You can try incognito mode, you can try, you know, creating a kind of dummy account and coming into a shopping scenario fresh, right? So you don't have, so there's not sort of a paper trail on you. You know, you duckduckgo different types of browsers that offer more protection. But it's really tough out there for consumers. And it, and I don't think it should be.

[Andrew]

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[Podcast Host]

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[Andrew]

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[Podcast Host]

And it's one of those things too, as you, as you think through this, that a lot of consumers right now, you know, you have the, the JetBlue example that just happened where a lot of folks were in uproar because, you know, this happened on X. It happened, you know, in front of people. They could actually see the response.

[Lindsay Owens]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And in reality, a lot of people kind of pushed back on that. They, they did not want this to happen. And the fear that I guess have is that over time we just. This muscle, we just get used to this. Like we get used to dynamic pricing and all of a sudden this becomes a way of life and that we're all standing here. So this is why I think it's really important to, to spread this message now is as this is currently happening, we kind of have to, you know, make our voices be heard early on in this process. Otherwise everyone's just going to kind of get used to this and we may just be, you know, in this new world of dynamic pricing that we have to kind of figure out how to navigate through. And I completely agree with you. I feel as though, you know, markets who have fair pricing, you know, are transparent about that pricing. And I think this is something where, you know, we really do have to think through this process and make sure we make our voices heard. So I think it's really, really important. And an example, another thing you were talking about earlier was Instacart and how instacart was changing prices for other people. And they had this dynamic pricing where some people were paying over 1200 bucks more in a given year than, than other folks who were ordering through Instacart. And so if folks are kind of quietly going through this process, they're quietly being bled through every single purchase. Is there any way that they can calculate what the difference is or is this just something that we have to kind of continue to see what happens first?

[Lindsay Owens]

Yeah, look, I will say one of my biggest frustrations. Well, I have two big frustrations about this type of pricing, aside from the obvious, you getting ripped off, you getting spied on, that's ridiculous. But I have two additional concerns. One is bargain shoppers are good for the economy, right? They play a really important role in keeping businesses honest, in keeping prices competitive. And so when we can't comparison shop, and in particular when the army of people who are extra good and extra focused on comparison shopping can't, can't maneuver and can't do their thing, we all lose, right? Because the mechanisms for keeping pricing competitive fall away. The other thing that's really frustrating, which I think gets to your question here, is not having posted prices, predictable prices, stable prices, undermines our ability to budget. And look, you know, it is one thing to not know how much income you're bringing in in a given month. A lot of us are lucky enough to have a salary or a guaranteed number of hours. We have some sense of how much income we're likely to bring in or minimum amount of income we're likely to bring in month to month. But increasingly, it is very difficult to discern how much money you're going to have to spend. Spend how much money is going to go out month to month when prices are fluctuating. Obviously, inflation played a role here, but now dynamic pricing, surveillance pricing has sort of upped the level of complexity and such that you can't actually know what you're likely to spend on something as basic as groceries from one week to the next. How can you budget? How can you know if you're going to bring in enough money to cover your outlay is if you don't know how much something is going to cost from one week to the next.

[Andrew]

Next.

[Podcast Host]

Agreed. And I, I think that's the most difficult part about this is, is it's very hard to kind of, hey, you set up this grocery budget ahead of time and you're trying to make sure that you are doing the right things with that. Then all of a sudden the prices shift and you, your budget gets all out of whack. I mean, it's very difficult for consumers to kind of navigate some of this stuff. And so I think you're completely right. It's, it's one of those things that we're going to have to kind of see what happens here and create some sort of, some sort of voice, some sort of fair pricing model that we're talking about here. And I think, you know, we've talked, you've talked through some of these companies and some of the things that they were doing. One of the interesting things that I saw also was that Uber did things like they raised prices on folks who had low battery and Orbit's raised prices on hotels for people who, you know, had MacBooks. So what are some of the data points I guess some of these companies are looking for? Is it, is there a through line here? Is there something that they're actually looking for? Or is it just, hey, MacBooks cost more than a Windows PC and so overall they're just going to charge more because they know that person may have more disposable income than someone who doesn't. Is that kind of what they're looking at?

[Lindsay Owens]

Yeah, I think of this as happening in kind of three waves. The first wave was the sort of old school surveillance data. Right. So they were looking at things like your zip code and using that as a proxy for how much income you might have. Looking at things like what kind of computer you had. If you're a Mac or PC user, using that as a proxy for how wealthy you are or how price sensitive you are, then over time now consumers can, or companies can collect, you know, real data about your spending purchases. Right. You log in using a loyalty program. They know exactly what you'd like to buy every week, what kind of cereal you buy, things like that, or they buy third party data that is specifically pegged to you as a consumer. So they know a lot about your purchase history. They're, they're less reliant on these sort of big proxies like zip code and getting more and More granular to you particularly. But all of that data is behavioral, right? It is, it is proxies for your likely future shopping based on your past shopping or things that we know about you demographically. Now we're entering this kind of third wave or sort of third set of data that is, I think, the creepiest and the scariest, which is this idea, and this gets back to our point about our good friend Sparky, this idea that now because of conversational LLMs and chatbots, instead of just relying on behavioral data about you, they can just ask you what you want, right? And then use your answer in their price setting. Whether you give that freely within an app like Walmart and Sparky, or whether you're, you know, a big part of the AI race is how to monetize AI. And shopping and commerce will be a big part of that. And we know, you know, Google earlier this year announced their universal commerce protocol for shopping in Gemini, and they're planning to try to be, you know, the first mover and the big mover in the commerce setting. So the idea would be you would fire up Gemini and you would ask your chatbot to go shopping for you. Basically that's a place where they can, you know, ask you quite a few questions about how much you really need to buy something, what your intentions are and things like that. So we have kind of crude, kind of guesstimate behavioral data. We have really fine grained behavioral data because we're tracking you closely and now we actually have data on your intentions potentially because we could just, you know, technologies can just ask you what you want and then exploit that.

[Podcast Host]

It kind of reminds me of like a way more advanced, you know, process where, like if you go into a car dealership to buy a car, what is the first person thing that the car salesman at the car salesman asks is they ask, hey, how much can you afford every single month to pay for this car? And if you give them that information, you are already losing the battle of this negotiation. Usually when you're having that conversation and it kind of reminds me of that, like when you're Talking to these LLMs and having these conversations, it's going to be one of those things where you got to kind of be very cautious about how you're answering some of this stuff if you do go that route, because it is one of those things, if you give too much information, they could take you down a rabbit hole is the wrong direction that you want to go in, which I think is very interesting. Who gets hurt the most in these Situations, you know, I, I think about folks who are lower income who are just trying to get by, is this type of pricing sensitivity. Does this kind of try to squeeze every single dollar out of folks like that? Or who do you think maybe in your opinion would get hurt the most by some of this pricing?

[Lindsay Owens]

Yeah, I mean, look, I think there is this kind of nice fantasy that price discrimination in its purest form could have a sort of Robin Hood effect. Right. You can overcharge the, you know, the rich asshole who always flies first class and use it to subsidize the, you know, kids who are really wanting to go on spring break. Right. You know, who don't have any disposable income. Right. But, you know, in my experience, the American economy doesn't really work that way. There sort of end up being a lot more kind of robber barons than Robin Hoods. Right. And the truth is, often, as we know from the credit market, you know, the poor pay more in part because they're desperate, Right. So they have to take on credit at usurious interest rates or, you know, they, they, they shock week to week, right. So they don't have the opportunity to, you know, they only, they only can afford to buy food for one week, and so the next week they have to buy food. They can't wait if the price has gone up. Right. They got to buy food again. Right. So I think, you know, there, there's a nice kind of fantasy about, you know, overcharging people who are less price sensitive, and surely that will absolutely happen. People who are not price sensitive. If these algorithms are working well, you'll get hosed. But I, I don't know that, you know, poorer people will always benefit because I do think, you know, one thing that these algorithms will be able to take advantage of is desperation, right. How much you need something. And, you know, this takes us back to this JetBlue example where this guy was really frustrated that the price had had skyrocketed 200 overnight, but he was desperate because he's going to a funeral. And so it, you know, it seems like he would pay it. Right. And as they know more and more about how much you need to buy something, that will factor in as well.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. And so you've been kind of fighting, you know, all of this at the policy level for years. And while we're kind of thinking through and waiting for regulation, is there anything that the individual can do to kind of help some of the things that you're doing right now? Is there anything, is this kind of Waiting for some of these policies to go through.

[Lindsay Owens]

There are some amazing state efforts happening across the country. New York State is on the verge of passing a ban on surveillance pricing. They already passed the nation's first disclosure law, requiring companies to tell you if they're using, if. If the price that they give you was set by an algorithm using your data. Colorado is on the precipice of signing into law legislation to ban surveillance pricing. There's some worry that the governor will veto it. So I think if you're living in Colorado, letting the governor know that this is something you support, good idea. But, yeah, there are movements afoot in Hawaii, in California, in Maryland and Tennessee, really, Philadelphia or Pennsylvania, really across the country. And so I think asking your electeds at the local level to move on legislation like this is actually, I think, a great place for folks to start.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I love that. And I think that's one thing, again, we have to. We kind of have to speak up early, I think, in. In terms of making. Making some of these shifts so that we can get ahead of this before it gets worse and worse and worse. And, and really, it's. I think that's very important. Now, you've taken on some big companies. You've taken on companies like Delta and Hertz and FIFA and Google. Are there any of those that have been kind of the hardest to crack going forward? Or is this one of those things where each one has their own individual, you know, difficulties that you have to kind of work through?

[Lindsay Owens]

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I do think consumer backlash is the tool that is most effective at bringing these companies to their heel. So when Delta got caught last summer bragging about their relationship with Fetcher, this is really artificial intelligence company that was helping them jack up Delta prices. You know, the backlash really helped, you know, Delta back off some of what they were planning with Fetcher. And look, the other thing that really helps is competition. Right? That's why it's good to have competition in markets. The, you know, CEO of American Airlines and Southwest Airlines jumped into the fray and said, hey, we're not going to do what Delta is doing. We think that's creepy, right? And that is a really good disciplining force in the market to sort of root out some of the worst practices. So, you know, consumer backlash, healthy competition, those are. Those are good ones. Obviously, it helps when you have attorneys general weighing in. The New York attorney general immediately signaled that she would be taking a close look at Instacart. And I think that was obviously very helpful in Getting them to back off their pricing experimentation. But I don't know, they're all kind of equally difficult in their own way. I think the hardest part is exciting, exposing it. Once you expose it and put the sunlight on it, then the sort of process of consumer backlash and regulation and enforcement can start to take root.

[Podcast Host]

And you wrote this book called Gouge that you kind of mentioned earlier on in the, in the interview as well. If someone goes through that book and they reads that book, what. What do you want them to feel when they put that book down?

[Lindsay Owens]

Yeah, well, it'll be out on September 29th, so you can pre order it, but you won't be able to read it for a little while. But it is written, it's finished. So I can tell you what I. What I hope. I mean, look, I think, you know, it is a little cliche to say that Americans are worried about how high prices are right now and how things are unaffordable. But my sense is that most of us are upset not just about the fact that prices are high, but also about the fact that pricing just feels more deceptive, more unpredictable, less transparent. And I think if you have felt that way and kind of wondered if something had changed and wondered if something was afoot, you know, I think when you read this book, you'll feel really validated. You know, I was right. Like, they were up to something like that. Price did change between this week and last week. My husband did weirdly get a better deal than me. Like, that wasn't an accident. Like that was by design. You know, I think the other thing that I hope the book will lay out is, you know, it doesn't have to be this way. And we know because we changed it once before after thousands of years of haggling. It was actually the Quakers in Pennsylvania, in the United States, who said, you know, this price discrimination thing is super unfair. If all men are created equal under God, like all men should pay the same price at the checkout line and they move to a standardized price. And then John Wanamaker, the Philadelphia merchant who had a new department store, Wanamakers, said, you know, I think I agree with the Quakers on this one, and I'm going to put price tags in my store. And he brought the price tag to the US Retail setting. And it wasn't just that the price tag was more fair. There was a business case for the price tag. Haggling takes a lot of time. And, you know, you're at a department store, you're going to buy some pantyhose and some lipstick and a blazer. Like, you don't want to be haggling over each of those you want. People linger in buying things, not spending all their time at the checkout line. And so it was kind of a win win for Wanamaker. It was something that was fair and consumer oriented, but also good for his bottom line. And I think, you know, we've really gotten away from that kind of bedrock equal pricing standard over that that we've had with us for 150 years now. But over the last 10 or 15 years, it's, it's slowly eroding. And so I think, you know, giving readers a sense of that history and, and an understanding that, you know, it's time for a fresh look. It's time to really rewrite the bargain between shoppers and retailers for the digital era. There are some things that maybe weren't, weren't in law, but they were norms in our society, kind of normative cultural values that we all kind of all depended on. I think it's time to bring those back. And just because you're shopping online doesn't mean you can't be treated fairly.

[Podcast Host]

Absolutely, I totally agree. And I think that is one of those things where you think through, you know, haggling through every single purchase that you make. That sounds exhausting to me. That's of those areas where I'm exhausting enough trying to make choices. So ex. Yeah, exactly. So it's one of those things that I think, yeah, for sure is, is something I'm, I'm so glad you're spreading this message because I think it is such an important thing to talk through. Well, Lindsay, thank you so much for coming on the show today. Where do you want people to pre order the book? Where can they find out more about you, your work and everything else that you're doing?

[Lindsay Owens]

Yeah, you can buy the book. It's gouged the end of a fair price and what that means for your wallet. You can pre order wherever you get your books, your local bookstore, you can go to Amazon, you can go to Penguin Viking, the publisher, and buy direct.

[Podcast Host]

Awesome. And we will link all those down below in the show notes. Thank you again so much, Lindsey, for coming on here.

[Lindsay Owens]

Thanks for having me.