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The Personal Finance Podcast
How to Find Your Purpose And Build A Life You Love With Jordan Grumet
00:46:17
In this episode of the Personal Finance Podcast, we're going to Jordan Grumet about how to find your purpose.
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- [00:01]
Andrew
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Jordan Grumman
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Andrew
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Jordan Grumman
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Andrew
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Jordan Grumman
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Andrew
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Jordan Grumman
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Andrew
See store online for details on this episode of the Personal Finance Podcast how to find your purpose with Jordan Grumman what's up everybody and welcome to the Personal Finance Podcast. I'm your host Andrew, founder of MasterMoney Co and today on the Personal Finance Podcast we're gonna be diving into how to find your purpose with Jordan Grumman. If you guys have any questions, make sure you hit us up on the Master Money newsletter by going to MasterMoney Co newsletter. And don't forget to follow on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube or whatever podcast player you love listening to this podcast on. And if you want to help out the show, consider leaving five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite podcast player. Now today we're going to be diving into how to find your purpose with Jordan Grumman. Jordan wrote this fantastic book that just came out called the Purpose Code and if you are someone who feels lost with your purpose, this is the episode for you because we're going to be diving into a bunch of different topics, including how to find your purpose, Some of the tips that Jordan gives you to figure out what your purpose might be, how to find more happiness out of life, how purpose and financial independence are intertwined. And there are so many great messages here that fall all the way back to financial independence and financial freedom that I think this is one of the most powerful things that most people can do. So if you are somebody out there who just does not know what your purpose is, you feel lost, like you're swaying back and forth and you have no idea which direction to go. This episode is going to help you out and I think Jordan's book is really going to help you out as well. Jordan's book has some fantastic exercises at the end of each chapter that I really, really enjoyed going through. And we'll talk a little bit more about that in this interview. But I really enjoyed going through those exercises. So this is something I think most people can benefit from. Really, really excited for you to check out this episode. So without further ado, let's welcome Jordan to the Personal Finance podcast again. So, Jordan, welcome back to the Personal Finance podcast.
- [03:52]
Jordan Grumman
Andrew, I'm so excited to be here.
- [03:55]
Andrew
We are so excited to have you back. You're one of the few two time guests that we've had on this podcast. And I'm so excited to talk about your book today because you wrote this book called the Purpl Code and you kind of lay out this framework that I think is so important for people nowadays. Most people kind of navigate through life and I think they have stress and anxiety around. They really don't know what their purpose is. And they look around and they see, you know, on social media they see all these various people who seemingly know what their purpose is because they have this facade up and it looks like they know what the heck is going on. And what we really know is that a lot of people are kind of faking it till they make it and try to figure out what their purpose is. And they need to actually kind of figure that out before they can kind of move forward in life. And so I'm really, really excited to talk through this today. But for you specifically, what inspired you to write the Purpose Code and how does it reflect on your own journey of finding purpose?
- [04:43]
Jordan Grumman
So interestingly enough, when My father was 40 and I was seven years old, he died suddenly and he was a doctor. And I thought the way I was going to cosmically make up for all of this because I was a seven year old, right? So I thought everything in the world had to do with me. And clearly if he died, it had something to do with something I had done wrong. I thought, well, if I could just become a doctor, too, everything would be fixed. And so I did that. And it was very joyful and purposeful for me at the beginning of my life. But as I became a doctor, I found it wasn't fulfilling me. And in fact, I got so burned out, I was like, look, I need to get away from this. I need to make enough money that I can leave medicine totally. During that time, I discovered the personal finance world. I started writing a blog about my finances and realized I was financially independent and could leave that world. I was really excited. I was jumping into my finances, and I started a podcast where I was talking to all these entrepreneurs, business people, financial independence people. We were talking all about money, and they could tell me everything about how to make money. But a lot of times when I said, what does enough look like? Or what do you want to do with that money? What is your why? I got a lot of blank stares. I realized that the answers to these type of questions was coming from a very strange place. As I left medicine, I kept one thing. There's one thing I loved doing, and that was hospice medicine, dealing with the terminally ill. And I found that when I would sit with them at bedside and we'd talk about their lives and we'd talk about regrets, they actually had a lot of answers that I couldn't find in the personal finance world about why. And what would you regret if you were on your deathbed and you never had the energy, courage, or time to do what? And those type of questions were questions I really thought the personal finance world needed to hear. So I wrote a book called Taking Stock. And the main premise about that book was that we have to put purpose first. I didn't even think twice about this. But then I went to go market that book, and I would give talks, and people would come up to me angry, and they'd be like, will you stop telling me to find my purpose? I've been looking for my purpose forever. I have no idea what it is. I can't seem to find it. I don't even think there is a purpose. Stop telling me to find purpose. That, of course, made me do a huge deep dive. I looked at all the data I could find about purpose, and I found two contradictory things. One, having a sense of purpose in life, that's what the researchers call it, is associated with health habits, happiness, and longevity. Very clearly, tons of studies very well studied. On the other hand, I also found that up to 91% of people at some point in their life have something called purpose anxiety. It means that the idea of purpose really frustrates them. And so what I realized is we have this paradox. And I set off to use all my experience as a hospice doctor, all my knowledge from running a mastermind in coaching and writing my first book, and try to answer this question, how do we resolve this paradox? And what I realize is that we fundamentally get purpose wrong. We think of it as one thing, it's probably two things. And one of those is associated with all those great things like the health, the longevity and the happiness. And one is probably associated with anxiety.
- [07:45]
Andrew
And it is so important to have this conversation because I think one of the biggest struggles that most people have is they don't know what enough is. And the reason why they don't know what enough is is they really don't know what their purpose is and kind of what they want to do within their life. And it's kind of beginning with the end in mind, which I think is so incredibly important. For me specifically, I' struggled with this for years, is just kind of figuring out, you know, especially in my 20s, kind of what I wanted to do. And it kind of caused that purpose anxiety that you're talking about here, where I'm kind of stressed out, like am I really doing the right thing? Is this what I'm supposed to be doing? How do I even know if this is what I'm supposed to be doing? And you kind of COVID that in the book, which is what I absolutely love. But why do you think so many people feel stressed when they're trying to discover their purpose and how can they overcome that?
- [08:28]
Jordan Grumman
I think most of us have no idea what purpose should be like in our life. And we've been taught throughout our lives that purpose is this really big audacious thing, right? In America they say if you can think it, you can build it. And so we're like, there's this really important thing I'm supposed to be doing, I don't know what it is. So let's look around and see what other people's version of purpose is. So we go to social media, we go to Instagram, we go to TikTok and we see these people like having six pack abs and traveling the world and running seven figure businesses and we co opt their version of purpose. We're like, that looks good, that should be our version of purpose. And it's not just social media, it's also marketing, right? You watch these TV commercials and it shows you this beautiful life and these great vacations and all these images are set to convince us that that should be our purpose so that we can buy the thing they're selling or we can follow the influencer. The problem is most of us don't actually have the agency to do things right? To have six pack abs or to run a seven figure business. You've usually gotta be the right at the right time, saying the right things with a lot of good luck and the right genetics. And the truth of the matter is, especially with what I call big audacious purposes, a lot of times these things just don't align. Not everyone can be a billionaire, not everyone can be president, not everyone can travel to the moon. If that is your version of purpose. Most people are going to fail and it's going to leave them frustrated. So what's the answer? The answer is instead of trying to co opt someone else's version of purpose that they're trying to sell to you so that you'll buy their thing, we've got to think about what fills us up inside and then build. And I'm going to say this again, we have to build, not find a life of purpose around those things that light us up. So remember I mentioned that there's two different types of purpose. Big P purpose is that kind of big audacious, goal oriented purpose, right? So it's all about the goals and it's usually really hard to reach and so it feels very scarce because not many people are going to get there and everyone else is going to fail. Very easy to fail. Very all or nothing. What I tell people is we should really be focusing on little P purpose, not goals oriented. It's process oriented. What are the things you could do that light you up? These are very abundant. Think about the millions of things I could do that excite me and then let's build a life of purpose around them. And so I think that's really the answer.
- [10:46]
Andrew
I couldn't agree more. And I think that's partially what I did even on my own personal journey is I try to focus on those little P purpose, the things that actually light me up and those things that I can do day in and day out and figure out, hey, what are some of these things that I could do that I enjoy and how can I help more people with that and how can I do the things that kind of bring me joy and happiness as I start to go through this process? And I think that is One of my favorite parts of the book is when you talk through the big P and little P purpose, because I think that will kind of unlock in some people's minds just how to get started where you can even start to move the needle towards what you're trying to do. Now, you share so many different cool stories in the book, and I love the way you kind of frame all of this out. What are some of your favorite stories or what is one of your favorite stories in the book of someone that had the most impact on you?
- [11:28]
Jordan Grumman
Well. Well, here's the story I really love to tell. And the reason why I love to tell it is one of the biggest criticisms I always get about little P purpose versus big P purpose is they say, well, that's great, but little P purpose is kind of selfish. And look, I want to have impact. I want to have legacy. I want to change the world. So I need a big, audacious version of purpose. And so I tell them the story of my maternal grandfather. It's one of my favorite stories because I never met the man. So he died in the 1960s. I was born in the 1970s, but our story really begins in the 1950s because my maternal grandfather loved math. That was his version of little P Purpose. He had no major goal with it. He just really loved it. And so he decided to become a CPA. And so in the 1950s, he would put my mom on his lap when she was a little girl. And back then, they didn't have computers. So when he was looking at all his mathematical calculations, he had these big handwritten spreadsheets with all these little boxes, and he would fill out each box, and my mom would sit on his lap and watch, and she would see him lit up by this activity that he loved. And so, like all kids, she tried on that identity for herself and realized, hey, his version of little P Purpose, I kind of like it, too. So she ended up loving math. Eventually, she became a cpa. All of this happened before I was born, but I was born, and I had a learning disability and I couldn't read. And so when the rest of my friends were learning how to read, I was coloring in coloring books because I couldn't keep up. And I would have probably felt lost, except I was exceptional at math because, like my mom and my maternal grandfather, I loved math. I tried on that same identity. So I was at the top of the class when it came to math, even though I couldn't read. And that gave me the confidence to really work towards getting better at reading. I, of course, eventually became a doctor, a very mathematical field. And one day at the beginning of my career, I was rounding in the hospital, and I saw this guy who kept on getting admitted to the hospital dehydrated, like, right at death's door. And we'd hydrate him up, he would leave, he'd come back again looking horrible. And I recognize a mathematical connection between two of his lab results, and realized that he probably had this really rare disease. And we actually eventually diagnosed him with it. And it was one of those diseases. We actually gave him the right medicine. He stopped being dehydrated, stopped coming into the hospital. But here's the thing. He was a pastor at a local church, and he took in homeless kids and got them social services. And if they were old enough, he'd get them a job and give them food. And so let's look at this story. My maternal grandfather, who died in the 1960s, who I never met, pursued his little p. Purpose. And 60 years later, hundreds of miles away from where he lived in New York, I'm in the Chicagoland area, some kid is getting help, Some homeless kid is finding shelter. Because of my maternal grandfather. Not because he set out to change the world, not because he wanted to be in the record books, not because he was even looking for impact or legacy. He just pursued what he loved. It lit him up, and it changed everything. And so whereas a lot of people are looking at purpose and they're like, I gotta change the world. I gotta fix things. I gotta make a huge impact, I say, no, you've gotta be the best you that you can be. And if you do that and act intentional and do what lights you up, it's gonna change the world whether you mean to or not.
- [14:49]
Andrew
Absolutely. And that is. I couldn't agree more. And kind of, when I read through that, I was like, that makes so much more sense. Because I think this is kind of what a lot of people, when they find their purpose, when they go through the process of doing that, they kind of just stumble upon it. But when you actually think through that, if you become intentional with what really lights you up, it's going to end up doing so much more for other people in the long run, if you're doing it the right way. And I think that is just one of my favorite parts that you kind of talk through when you go through it. Life's extra fees at the movies, airline tickets, or concerts can hold you back. And that's why chime makes financial progress easier. With no maintenance fees, fee free overdraft up to $200 and getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. With Chime, there are no overdraft fees and your next deposit is applied to your balance plus over 50,000 fee. 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I think a lot of people are struggling with the idea of, you know, they want to achieve more and they want to kind of do more in life and they're trying to figure out how to do that. And you kind of talk through something called the achievement treadmill and you talk through what a lot of people are going through this process of the achievement treadmill. And if you're someone who is really ambitious, like I'm someone who wants to always try to do a ton of different things and I want to achieve all these different goals. And probably sometimes I run on that achievement treadmill too. To be honest. It's just one of those things that probably my personality starts to kind of move in that direction and I have to always remind myself, hey, you got to enjoy this if you're going to be doing this kind of stuff and enjoy the process and love what you're actually doing. So how can someone pursue ambitious goals without falling into the trap of the achievement treadmill?
- [19:57]
Jordan Grumman
So the first thing I want to say is I don't think goals are bad. So I talk about Big P purpose and it's bad because it's goal oriented. It's not that goals are Bad it's that if we're doing the thing just to meet the goal and we don't enjoy the process of doing it, then we're kind of wasting our time. So I always tell people we should be more goal agnostic, but not goal phobic. So you can have huge audacious goals. But if your joy in doing the process of the thing goes away, if you don't reach the goal, then it's probably lost. Or if you're doing lots of things you don't like in service of this goal, you're going to spend a lot of time doing things you don't like, just for those few moments where you feel excited by the goal. So the achievement treadmill is difficult because a lot of us are achievement oriented. That's why we got where we are today. To really understand how to work on the achievement treadmill, you have to understand the difference between meaning and purpose. So I always tell people, happiness is made up of meaning and purpose. You need both of them. People think they're the same thing, but they're actually very different. Meaning is about our past, and it's our cognitive thoughts about our past. In fact, it's the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. And meaning is a journey to feeling enough. So happy people tend to tell themselves heroic stories about their past. They say, boy, I went through these hard things, I had this trauma, I had these setbacks, but I was enough and I got through them and I'm enough today. So the likelihood is in the present and future, I'm going to still be enough. Unhappy people tell themselves a victim story. They see that they were thwarted in the beginning. They had these traumas, they had these setbacks, they were never able to recover. They still feel thwarted today, and they think they'll be thwarted in the present and future. In other words, they don't feel enough. Let's contrast that to purpose. So meaning I said was about your past and it's about your thoughts. Purpose is about your present and future, and it's about actions. It's doing the things that light us up. Here's where people on the achievement treadmill get it wrong. They think they can purpose their way to happiness and they can purpose their way to enough. In other words, their sense of meaning is more of a victim story. Or at least they don't feel like they were enough in the past. And instead of going back and working on that, they figure, if I just achieve enough in the present future, all of a sudden that emptiness, that hole of not feeling enough is Going to go away. The problem is it just doesn't work. We know this. If you look at pop culture, look at all these really unhappy billionaires. I think Steve Jobs was a perfect example of this, Was the most amazing guy, created some of the most amazing things, created a huge amount of wealth. But if you look at his life story, he was not the nicest guy and seemed pretty unhappy. Probably because he was trying to purpose his way to enough. And what he really needed to do, for instance, is go back and start thinking about, well, I was adopted and how did that affect my stories? I told myself about myself, about being enough and about being loved. You could say the same thing about Elon Musk. There's tons of people like this who've achieved things that we all are just in awe of, and they don't particularly look happy. The reason why is they're on the achievement treadmill and they think purpose is the answer. The real answer is to go back to meaning and tell yourself better stories about yourself. Like, why is it so important that I succeed? And what do I think it'll prove? And even when I get there, how come it doesn't make me feel better for very long?
- [23:17]
Andrew
I love that. And I think that is just thinking about. Again, thinking about what you're doing day in and day out and how you can actually enjoy that process is going to be a big portion of this. And that's kind of a big shift into kind. Kind of how I think about my days now, even after writing or reading the book, is like, you know, during this process, and if I have these big goals that I set and I set to achieve these bigger goals, what that really means is big, huge goals. You have to trickle it down to, what are you going to be doing day in and day out to take steps towards that goal? Well, if you look at what you're doing day in and day out, to take steps towards that goal, you have to be enjoying that process and going through that. Otherwise, every day of your life is just going to be miserable because you're trying to achieve a goal. You can't achieve a goal without doing stuff day in and day out. And I think for a lot of people, they just need to think through that process and kind of backtrack and reevaluate how they're actually going through that. So if someone is looking for, say, a bigger goal and they want to achieve that goal, how do they find joy in the process rather than just the outcome? Like, how do they actually think through that and how do we Shift our mindset to appreciate that journey.
- [24:15]
Jordan Grumman
So what you're really asking, I think, is, how do I, quote, unquote, find my purpose? And I say this all the time. We don't find our purpose, we build it. But it is true we need these inklings and beckonings to build a life of purpose around. So instead of starting with the goal and working backwards, I think what we should actually do is start thinking about what are purpose anchors in our lives, what we enjoy doing. And then once we start thinking about those things, if we really want to build in some goals, we can then build in those afterwards. So the bigger question is not how do we find our purpose? It's how do we become aware of our purpose anchors? How do we realize what lights us up? And I know this confuses people, like, I have no idea what lights me up up. But the truth of the matter is, most of us actually have a really good idea. And in the book, I talk about a series of exercises you can do to get there. And I'm going to very quickly run through just a few things we could do to find our purpose anchors so that we can build a life of purpose around them and then maybe even set some healthy goals. So how do you find your purpose anchors? Well, a great way is regret. So I deal with the dying, and the dying often do something called the life review, where they talk about their lives and a lot of them talk about regret. Like, what did I. I regret never having the energy, courage, or time to do well, what if we could start asking those questions now when you were young and healthy and not dying? And then we could take that regret and turn it into a purpose anchor. So I know for me, five years ago, if I never traditionally published a book, I would have regretted that it was like a dream of dream of mine that I never had the courage to pursue, and I was even scared to talk about. But when I did my own life review, I'm like, that would be a major regret. So what did I do? I turned it into a purpose anchor. I'm like, okay, writing is really important for me. I want to traditionally publish a book. How then can I reverse engineer as you were talking about, say, well, okay, that's what I want to do. How do I reach this goal of traditionally publishing a book? And then I could think about the steps and decide whether those steps would light me up or not, or at least find a joyful way to do it. So regret is a great way to start thinking about purpose anchors. Another one is the joys of childhood. What lit you up when you were a kid? When no one told you any rules and you weren't worried about goals, you were just going out and playing all day and forgetting that dinner was coming. A lot of us had stuff we loved. Sometimes it was sports, sometimes it was collecting, sometimes it was building the fort. Whatever that thing was, go back to your childhood room. What were the posters? What were the drawings? What were the medals? Think about. Maybe those could be some purpose anchors for you. Another way to find purpose anchors is what I call the art of subtraction. I always tell people, do this at work. Take all your roles and responsibilities at work, write them out, and then start slashing everything you don't love and see if there's anything left over. I did this as a doctor, and I realized I didn't like having my own practice. I didn't like seeing patients all day. I didn't like working nights and weekends. I started slashing everything I didn't like doing. But there was one thing I would do even if you weren't paying me for it, and that was hospice work. So the art of subtraction taught me that hospice was something that was a purpose anchor. And even though I don't even identify as a doctor anymore, I still practice hospice medicine. I'm still working five to ten hours a week week doing it because it feels so purposeful. And last but not least, if all that fails and you're still looking for purpose anchors, try the spaghetti method. Throw a bunch of spaghetti against the wall and see what sticks. That means saying yes to people you normally don't say yes to, doing things you don't normally do, maybe doing something that makes you feel a little uncomfortable for a few hours. And if at the end of the day you're like, that was cool, or that was worthwhile or enjoyed the process of doing that thing, maybe that could be a purpose anchor for you. So those are some really quick, easy ways. And then after you've developed those purpose anchors, hey, for me, I loved as a kid baseball cards. So I could use the joys of childhood to remember that I loved baseball cards. If I had a lot of free time, I could start building purpose around that. I could start a blog, I could start a podcast. I could start going to baseball card shows. I could start hanging out in baseball card shops. I could start a fan club for my favorite baseball player. Now, if I wanted to build some goals into that, I still could, like, hey, maybe I'd like to make this a side hustle. And make some money. So I'm going to start buying and selling baseball cards online. But the key is this. My enjoyment can't be the goal. I want to make $10,000 a year, $20,000 a year. If that's it and I don't like the process of buying and selling, then I've kind of lost. But if I love buying and selling and it lights me up every time I see a good deal on a baseball card, then I meet the goal. Great. I don't meet the goal great. I've still built in some real purposeful.
- [28:30]
Andrew
Activity into my life and I love that. And the coolest thing about your book, and one of my favorite parts of it, is at the end of each chapter for those listening, if you like those exercises that we were kind of just talking about there, he has different exercises that you can go through to kind of figure out what your purpose. And I went through a bunch of those just to kind of think through on my own. And it helped me kind of open my mind up to a bunch of different ideas. And even for someone who's a business owner, I even did the artist of traction. I was like subtracting all the things that I hate when I went through that process. I was like, like, hey, I own some of these businesses. I love operating and owning these businesses, but I hate this stuff. How can I find somebody else to do this stuff for me? So I'm not doing this day in and day out so that I'm not doing something that I absolutely hate every single day. And there's so many different use cases, even for some of the exercises that you talk about, where it's going to unlock so many different ideas for a lot of people. And I think that is what is so incredibly powerful. And most people need to kind of go through that process, which I love. So now one big thing is is it possible to balance purpose, happiness and ambition or is there always just a trade off? Because most things in life have trade offs. Is there always just a trade off or can you balance all three of those?
- [29:31]
Jordan Grumman
I think you can balance them. I mean, I'm a really ambitious guy. I mean, I left medicine where I was working 60 hours a week and I was stressed out and not sleeping. And over time after I left medicine, I've built in so many things in my life that are just so joyful and I love doing that. I'm actually sleeping less and working more than when I was a 60 hour a week doctor. But I'm not doing it for money. And I'm not doing it for accolades. I'm doing it because I'm deeply interested in these things. Hey, I am out here pounding the pavement trying to get people to buy this book. I would love to be a New York Times bestseller. USA Today bestseller. That doesn't mean that if I don't get there, I'll be totally upset. It just means that, hey, I've got ambition and it feels good to dig into this beautiful goal. I've just set up my life such that the time I spend with you on this podcast, even if nothing ever came of it, even if I didn't even sell one single copy of the book. But this is a really enjoyable hour that I'm spending with a friend, someone I care about doing something I'm deeply passionate about. That's good enough. But don't get me wrong, I'd love a bunch of people to listen to this and go out and buy the book. It's just my version of happiness doesn't depend on it. And I think that's the balance, right?
- [30:42]
Andrew
That is the balance. And I think that's kind of a great way to put it is finding that balance in that way. And for a lot of people out there who are ambitious, I think you can find that balance. And that's what I think is most important. Because some people think there's just full trade offs where, you know, you have to start this business, you have to grind through it. You can't be happy as you go through this process.
- [30:58]
Jordan Grumman
You know what really helps with it? That when you stop trying to prove you're enough through achievements, that's usually the problem. The reason why we are so busy trying to do these things, even to the point where we're unhappy and not taking care of ourselves and not giving enough time to the people in our lives we love, is because deep down inside we're trying to prove that we're enough. And if you remember, purpose just doesn't do that. And so if you're trying to do that, you're going to find yourself unhappy. But once you get to that point where you're like, okay, I'm enough. I could die tomorrow and I don't have to prove myself anymore. I've done all the great things, then you can jump into purpose joyfully and then you can set goals joyfully, but you've got to believe you're enough. Otherwise it becomes that treadmill and you just get more and more tired, but not necessarily more happy. You're not necessarily going any farther. You're just running in the same place.
- [31:52]
Andrew
And that is the most powerful spot you could be in, is figuring out what that enough is. And I think for a lot of people, if they feel lost or overwhelmed, they're listening to us right now. They're like, I want to find my purpose. I want to be able to go through this and find my purpose and really find more joy in life. What is the first step they can take to start creating their sense of purpose?
- [32:11]
Jordan Grumman
I think actually you should start with meaning and then move to purpose. So the first question is, why do you not feel enough already? What are the stories you've been telling yourself about yourself your whole life? Especially, what are those negative narratives, and can you go back and reassess them? My negative narrative was that my father died and it was my fault. And so I figure I could fix this with big, audacious purpose. I'm going to become a doctor. I'm going to walk in his shoes. I'm going to undo his death. And GUESS what happened 20 years later? I was a doctor, and it didn't solve anything. So what did I have to do? I had to go back to that narrative and say, you've been telling yourself for years that becoming a doctor would fix this horrible thing that happened to you. And I had to say, you know what? You weren't responsible for this. You were a good kid in a bad situation. Life events happen to you, and look how heroically you still ended up being successful, had a successful career, got married, had kids, had friends. And so when I changed that story from being a victim to being a hero, I could finally relieve myself and say, I don't have to prove myself enough anymore. I don't have to make up for my father's death. Once I was able to do that, it was so much easier to walk away from medicine, which wasn't serving me me, and start doing things that truly lit me up, like podcasting and writing and public speaking. All these things. I always had the inkling that they were important to me, but I never gave them the place in my life they deserved because I was too busy trying to meet the sense of big, audacious purpose, which was impossible. It was never going to happen. My dad was always going to be dead. I was never going to fix that. And so I had to rewrite that narrative. So I think the first step is to try to understand why you don't feel enough and rewrite some of those old narratives. And sometimes you need a therapist to do this. Sometimes it can be very difficult. I think once you do that, you start identifying purpose anchors in your life, and then you can just joyfully move forward, not worried about proving yourself anymore, and just start doing stuff that lights you up. And here's the magic. When you start doing things that light you up, people are attracted to you like a moth to a flame. People want to collaborate with you, they want to learn from you, they want to teach you. And so the teachers and the students in your life come to you. It's like this happy side effect. Because truthfully, happiness. I talk a lot about how purpose is associated with happiness, but I'm going to give away the secret of the book. I don't even think purpose causes happiness. I think it's interpersonal connections. There's some great data about interpersonal connections, community, and how that causes happiness, but I think little P. Purpose is a great conduit to those things, because when you do what lights you up, other people can't help but be attracted to you. And that's where we connect when we're being our best self. When we're being most lit up, is when other people are going to really take notice.
- [34:55]
Andrew
I love that. Is to find your meaning first, and then, you know, the purpose will follow. I think that is just a really powerful statement. And a lot of people, if they start there, they'll be able to kind of go through that. And like you said, you know, if you do things that light you up, a lot of times, like on this podcast, for example, people will be like, you know, in my normal episodes, I'm kind of talking louder and I'm. It sounds like I'm yelling almost. People like, why are you yelling? I'm like, I'm sorry. I'm just so excited about this topic and talking through finance that it just. It just really lights me up and kind of gets me going. And I really just love thinking through that process of someone, you know, somewhere who has $0 to their name, and they're just trying to figure out how to manage their money. And, you know, I want to be that inspiration to them, to help them to kind of get to that next step and. And be able to build wealth over time and become a millionaire one day and kind of grow from there. And that kind of stuff just lights me up. And I think for most people, if you can find that, you know, finding that meaning first is going to be so incredibly important and then kind of moving on, you'll find your purpose is going to be so, so powerful. One thing that I think is super interesting as a hospice doctor is that you've heard probably a bunch of different deathbed regrets, and you could probably write a whole book just on some of those conversations that you've had with people. And so what do you think regret teaches us about living a purposeful life and how can we use it as a guide rather than a burden?
- [36:07]
Jordan Grumman
Yeah, I think regret, again, is a great way to frame your purpose anchors. And so we don't want to be the kind of people who wait until a doctor like me walks into your room to start thinking about what the. Those important things in your life were and why you didn't achieve them. And I get it. The deeply important things in our life, they're scary, for one. They make us realize life is finite. Sometimes we put them off because we're like, if I don't start working on this, there may not be enough time. That stresses me out, so I'm just not going to work on it. But the other thing is, it's about the courage to face failure. If this thing is really deeply important to me and I face it, I might fail, and that'll be crushing. So I'm not even going to try. Here's the thing. I've sat with a lot of people on their deathbeds, and a lot of times they'll tell you, I had enough time. I just didn't pursue it. And a lot of times they'll tell you if they did try to do that thing and they failed at it, they still revel in the attempt if they feel like they did everything they could. And so we create all sorts of reasons not to do these deeply difficult, uncomfortable things. And yet they will be the things we regret.
- [37:17]
Andrew
100. And I've talked to a lot of people who, you know, are in their 80s or 90s, and I've had conversations with them. And a lot of them, their biggest regret they had conversations with me were they didn't try. They didn't. They just didn't try specific things. And so when I heard that, I kind of listened to that and I said, listen, I'm gonna. Anything that I think, you know, I want to do in life that's going to bring me joy and happiness, I'm gonna try. I don't know if it's going to be successful, but I'm gonna find out, and I'm gonna find a way to. To kind of see, you know, what's going to happen there. And I think that is really, really cool. Cool to even be able to have some of those conversations and. And kind of just see what People regret in life and kind of making those adjustments. And I think there's a lot of. A lot of wisdom in that. How do you see the relationship between finding your purpose and financial independence? For a lot of people, most people who start on the financial independence journey, maybe they're learning more about financial independence. They don't really realize that it's almost a philosophy more so than anything else, because you're trying to find your enough number and you're trying to find. Find your purpose. So how do you kind of see that relationship?
- [38:11]
Jordan Grumman
So I think a lot of people mistake the connection between money, wealth, and happiness. And so money is a great tool, but a horrible goal. And it's a horrible goal because basically what we're saying is when we make it a goal, we're saying what really lights us up is some electronic number in our bank account. We all know that's not true. That's not deeper inner fulfillment. That's just saying, boy, I accomplished something really. Ultimately, we want money to be a tool that helps us live the life we want to live. So first and foremost, we have to decide what is the life we want to live. And that all gets, again, back to things like little P. Purpose, what lights us up? And then how do we use money as a tool to either buy the things we need to do those things, or more importantly, to support ourselves and clear our schedules so that we can actually spend more time doing those things we want to do. And so I think that's the important part. Now, there's a caveat. One of the big mistakes people make is they say, well, I never really pursued purpose because I didn't have enough money. And so I want to remind people, money is a great tool, but it is only one of many tools. And so we not only have money, but we have our youth, our energy, our skills, our passions, our communities. And those are also tools. So if you're like, boy, I'm 22, and I'm working in this job that I hate, but I'm barely paying the bills. I don't have time for purpose right now. I would tell you, it's true you don't have a lot of one tool, but at 22, you have a lot more energy than I do at 51. You probably don't have a mortgage. You probably don't have any kids. You could work on building purpose in your life. Maybe on the weekends, times when I'm carting the kids to practices or I'm doing the lawn or doing all the million things I have to do as a 51 year old, you, at 22 might not have those responsibilities. And so you can use the tool of your energy and your time, for instance, to start something purposeful and passionate on the weekends. And hey, maybe even that purposeful, passionate thing is a side hustle and you make a little money and maybe that gives you a little margin in your life that you can stop working as hard at the job you don't like. And maybe you go from five days a week to four days a week. And so not only have you added something purposeful into your life, which is a win because you added something purposeful, but now you've subtracted something you don't like, which has gotten rid of some of your work. And so you're winning the game at 22, even though you don't have a huge amount of tool of money that we all talk about is all important. The key is you really want to use money as a financial framework to live the life you want to live. But if you don't know what the life you want to live is, that's the starting point. Not how do I make tons of money, not how I become a millionaire. The starting point is who do I want to be and what lights me up. And then let's start thinking about the finances and see how we can work that in, in a very manageable way.
- [40:52]
Andrew
I love that. And I think that's where the true connection is, is, is figuring out that purpose and that meaning first. And then you can figure out, you know, exactly how to intertwine all of that with your finances. I think that is so incredibly powerful for most people now. Last thing is the book kind of emphasizes leaving a lasting legacy. What do you hope your legacy will be? After writing this book and kind of going through this process and thinking through this in a deep way, what do you want your lasting legacy to be?
- [41:15]
Jordan Grumman
So I'm good friends with J.L. collins, and if you guys don't know who J.L. collins is, he wrote the Simple Path to Wealth. And here's the thing about the Simple Path to Wealth. A lot of people thought investing in financial independence was the most complicated, difficult, pie in the sky thing. And a lot of people never pursued it because they're like, I just have no idea how to do this. I don't know what the first steps are. I don't know what to do. And then they read his book and they were like, oh, like, this is what financial independence is. This is what investing could look like. This is exactly how I do it. And my stress and my anxiety are gone. It might be hard. I might have to work a lot, I might have to save a lot of money. It might not be the easiest thing, but it is simple and I know how to pursue it. I hope my legacy, especially from this book, is that I do the same thing with purpose. Because I think right now a lot of people see purpose as this pie in the sky, ephemeral, difficult thing to reach, and they have no idea what the steps are. And the truth of the matter is I don't think anyone's really laid it out very well for us. And so my hope is that you can get the same feeling after reading the purpose code that you got after reading the Simple Path to Wealth is, oh, wow, this is manageable. There are steps I can take. I now know how to start thinking about purpose and building it in my life. And that would be a wonderful impact and legacy of my work.
- [42:31]
Andrew
I think it truly does. And I think when I read the book originally, I was like, man, some of this stuff I did and I didn't even know that I was doing it. And then some of this stuff as I went through this process, I'm like, oh, I missed out on some of these pieces and just loved going through the exercises and actually, actually kind of seeing these steps laid out in this way in such a simple way. So I think it is so powerful for folks to read this book for sure. So I'm going to shift gears to some of the questions that we ask. You know, I think you've gone through a lot of these and we'll ask these questions to you as well on like a rapid fire way to go through and see what you think on these. These are some of my favorite questions to ask. So what part of your work or life makes you come alive?
- [43:07]
Jordan Grumman
So here's the exciting part. Almost everything now. Now if you go back 10 years ago, it was the moments that I stole away to wr public speak or do those kind of things. And that was a tiny, tiny piece of my life. I'll tell you now, most of the things I do light me up. So I love my hospice work, ultimately love it. Even if they stopped paying me for it, I'd still do it. I love podcasting and I don't make much money doing it, so pretty much I'm doing it for free. I love writing books. I really, really like public speaking. And so I would tell you. And those are like the bigger things. I also love exercising, so I take a long walk most days around the lake Because I live right by Lake Michigan. I love reading, I love reading crime novels. I spend a lot of time doing that. And, and so I've pretty much tried to maneuver my calendar so that most of the things I do on most days light me up. And I'm a heck of a lot farther along in that process than I was 10 years ago.
- [43:59]
Andrew
That's amazing. What is your biggest fear when it comes to money?
- [44:03]
Jordan Grumman
Oh, I am a human being and I have my own generational trauma. My grandma, for instance, grew up during the Depression and she lived in an orphanage. My mom lost her spouse right in his prime money making years. So I will always be afraid of running out of money no matter how much I have. The difference is I don't spend a lot of time worrying about it anymore. Sometimes when I feel or hear that anxiety coming up, I kind of accept it and say, okay, this is a story you've been telling yourself your whole life. It's a story that was passed down from generation to generation. I'm probably not going to make it go away completely. Instead, I accept it and I say, okay, that is my emotional irrational side and I'm going to accept it, but I'm not going to act on it.
- [44:43]
Andrew
That's a great approach because I have always have the same fear I think most a lot of humans do. And that's a great approach. I'm going to try that out on myself as well. What is the best money advice you've ever received?
- [44:54]
Jordan Grumman
Put purpose first and then build a financial framework around it. I think basically, unless you know your why. I know it sounds corny, but unless you know your why, you're going to just jump right on that treadmill. And even when you get to the million or 2 million or financial independence, you're just going to keep going because you don't know what else to do with it.
- [45:10]
Andrew
You just keep going and going and going if you don't have that purpose. And I think that's so powerful. Last one is, what does wealth mean to you?
- [45:19]
Jordan Grumman
Wealth means looking at my schedule every week and knowing that I put everything there and that I can get rid of any of it at any time on the drop of a dime if I decide I don't want to do it. Look, I put out a podcast two days a week tomorrow, if I decide I don't want to edit it and I'm not going to put Thursday's show out, I have complete control over that. And that feels wealthy.
- [45:41]
Andrew
Absolutely. I think that is one of the best places you could be in life. And it's the most satisfying feeling for sure. 100%. Well, thank you so much. This has been just so awesome. Absolutely loved your book. Everybody listening needs to go out and get your book. Where can they find more about you and your book, your podcast, everything else?
- [45:56]
Jordan Grumman
The best place to go is jordangrummit.com that's J-O R-A-N G-R-U-M E T.com There you can see both of my books and purchase them taking stock as well as the Purpose code as well as see as all the places that I create content. Currently the places I'm most often am at are the Earn and Invest podcast and the Purpose code substack. All those links are@jordan grummet.com Perfect.
- [46:17]
Andrew
Well Jordan, thank you so much again for coming on. This was absolutely amazing.
- [46:20]
Jordan Grumman
It's been a blast man. Thanks.