The Spanish Civil War Episodes on Targeted Subjects (Updated) w/ Karl Dahl

Summary

The Pete Quiñones Show

The Spanish Civil War Episodes on Targeted Subjects (Updated) w/ Karl Dahl

Date: August 5, 2026
Host: Pete Quiñones
Guest: Karl Dahl (author of “Faction with the Crusaders”)

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Episode Overview

This extensive set of episodes features author and researcher Karl Dahl, whose deep study of the Spanish Civil War, including work with Spanish primary sources, informs a wide-ranging conversation with Pete Quiñones. The series draws parallels between 20th-century Spain and the modern United States, focusing both on historical analysis (especially from a right-wing and revisionist perspective) and on organizational lessons applicable today.

Major thematic arcs include:

• The neglected complexities and suppressed histories of the Spanish Civil War, especially in English-language sources.
• The nature of both the left and right coalitions in Spain — how they organized, collaborated, or descended into factionalism, and what that tells us about present-day political divides.
• Rich details on organizational methods, military logistics, arms, revolutionary tactics, the role of faith, and the social/cultural fabric upended by the war.
• Deep dives into the ideological and material roots of the Spanish left, especially anarchism, syndicalism, and Marxism, including key personalities and texts.
• How propaganda, myth-making, and historical memory were formed — and weaponized — during and after the conflict.
• Direct analogies and warnings about the contemporary West, especially the U.S., springboarding from Spanish history.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Understanding the Spanish Civil War Matters

• Both speakers emphasize that the Spanish Civil War offers vital warnings and lessons for America today, highlighting the "rhymes" between Spain’s late 19th/early 20th-century decline and current U.S. crises.
• Dahl: "It is, in my opinion, the closest model to what we could see here in the U.S. if tensions go hot... People think ‘Civil War’ and jump to the Bolshevik model, but the Spanish situation is a lot more comparable." ([74:41])

2. The State of Scholarship & Suppression of Truth

• English-language literature on the war is dominated by leftist or Anglo-centric narratives, leaving out both primary Spanish sources and non-left interpretations.
• Or, as Dahl quips: “What does the average person know about the Spanish Civil War? Franco, scary mustache man, something something George Orwell, and they haven’t even read Orwell!” ([04:26])
• Pete notes: “If you want to try to find a copy of Kemp’s book or anything not from a leftist, you’re looking at $300–400.” ([05:42])

3. Organizational Competence: Lessons from the Right’s Victory

• A defining difference: The Spanish right, especially the Carlists and Falange, set aside differences and unified organizationally before the shooting started.
• Dahl: “The time for politics and petty differences was over. Everyone knew it was time for war. They joined the units that they could—in the Carlists, the Falange, or the Army—or they didn’t. And if they didn’t, they didn’t matter.” ([146:14])
• Key insight: “Even the anarchists in Catalonia—when they had actual success it’s because they chucked ideology and organized, hard, with hierarchy. The right’s organization was weaponized tradition.” ([07:35]/[12:00])

4. The Carlists: Faith, Memory, and Resilience

• Dahl, on the heart of Carlist resistance: “Their whole model was to keep trying again, through unending failures, partial successes, and always holding on to tradition—duty, privilege, faith. It’s why they survived.” ([09:45])
• Discussion on their organization — e.g., the 10-man decuria cell structure, pre-war drilling and military preparation, and why without them, the nationalist uprising would have failed. ([125:43])
• The attack on faith was central: “Ten thousand clergy, nuns, monks, and laypeople killed in 3 months...This was not some abstract revolution or a fight for political points. These people knew they were up against outright evil.” ([14:04]/[17:19])

5. Propaganda, Atrocity, & Historical Memory

• Both note the deliberate suppression and inversion of atrocity narratives by victorious left-leaning historians and propagandists, particularly regarding the Red Terror versus the “crimes of the right.”
• Pete: “If you look at the numbers, in 3 months the left executed more clergy and laity than were executed in the Inquisition in 350 years!” ([17:19])
• Dahl: “They always want to frame it as spontaneous, brief, just the beginning and then reined in. The truth is, it was the central feature of their side from the start… and covered up ever since.” ([36:00])

6. Parallels to Contemporary America & the West

• Ongoing theme: structural and spiritual analogs between late-imperial Spain and today’s America:
  • Loss of unity, decentralization, “collapsing empire” mindset, incompatibility between inherited traditions and imposed liberal/left norms
  • The failure of liberal-conservative “peaceful turn” arrangements, and why they simply delay but cannot prevent crisis
• Dahl: “If the U.S. right ever has to organize as the Spanish right did, it has to understand the same thing: unity over difference, organization over ideology, and the black pill is just a stage you pass through.” ([83:50])
• Pete: “You look at Spain’s history—decentralization might sound good, but it’s what left them open to subversion...You go region by region, it’s a pattern you can see again, including here.” ([47:14])

7. The Spanish Left: Anarchism, Syndicalism, Marxism, and Internal Conflict

• Deep dive into the intellectual roots of Spanish anarchism (Proudhon, Bakunin, Bookchin), why anarchism became Spanish, and why the anarchist-communist marriage was doomed.
• Key segment: The left’s “glory years” organizationally—how the CNT-FAI’s cell structures and federated models worked, what went wrong (lack of central vision, internal purges, betrayal by communists aligned with Moscow).
• Pete: “They really leaned into principle, refused to collaborate, right up until it was too late. Thank God they did.” ([162:21])
• Dahl: “The right could organize because they saw enemies who wanted to kill them. The left, as soon as the war turned, started killing the anarchists first.” ([166:15])

8. Arms, Logistics, and Material Reality

• In-depth discussion of small arms, machine guns, logistics, and how both sides sourced and maintained their arsenals. The Carlists’ preparations put the right at a massive advantage; their networks hijacked or redirected shipments, and parallel economies flourished.
• Key segment: The dangers, successes, and limits of artisanal weapons—especially explosive devices. ([204:11]–[214:13])
• The Nationalists’ capture of manufacturing hubs and military logistics was decisive. The Republic relied on Soviet and French imports, leading to logistical nightmares.
• Dahl: “The real achievement was organizational and logistical, not just winning in the streets.” ([275:54])

9. The Role of Faith in the War

• Both speakers return again and again to Catholic identity as a force multiplier—practically and psychologically.
• Emphasized in reading of Warren Carroll’s “The Last Crusade” describing the Alcazar siege, martyrs, and the battle to preserve Spain’s Christian heritage:
  • “Never since the Moors were driven from Spain has there been such a Catholic army... This is not a civil war. It is a holy war, a crusade. These are not soldiers. They are fighting monks, Knights, Templars.” (McCullough, [300:38])
• Dahl: “If you want to know how you survive a 700-year Reconquista, it’s faith—a willingness to move the line three feet at a time, die a martyr, and let your kid advance it another mile.” ([346:15])

10. Practical Lessons for Organizing in Hostile Conditions

• Dahl repeatedly details lessons from CNT-FAI cell structures, leftist operational models, and right-wing militia organization that apply to modern activists concerned about regime hostility.
• Segment on “community watch” principles, intelligence-gathering, and the importance of granular local knowledge.
• Main thesis: “The future belongs to those who show up—it’s not about individual guns or beliefs, but organizing, discipline, leadership, logistics, and the resolve to act together with people who want the same outcome.” ([146:14]/[81:20])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“What does the average person know about the Spanish Civil War? Franco, scary mustache man, something something George Orwell, and they haven’t actually read Orwell.”
— Karl Dahl ([04:26])

"If I don’t have something compelling behind what I’m writing, if there isn’t some big thing I’m trying to convey, I’m just not going to be successful at doing so."
— Karl Dahl ([06:40])

"Ten thousand clergy, nuns, monks, and lay people killed in the first three months of the war. And that was what they were all about: la revolución social."
— Karl Dahl ([14:04])

“They always want to frame [left atrocities] as spontaneous, brief, and then reined in. The truth is, it was the central feature of their side from the start—and covered up ever since.”
— Karl Dahl ([36:00])

"The right was extremely organized, they had been trying for a very long time… By the time the civil war kicked off, it was all ready to go."
— Dahl ([08:30])

“On the left, which is lions led by donkeys, you were always at risk of getting purged. On the right, differences didn’t matter as much as survival.”
— Pete Quinones ([88:00])

"When it comes to partisans, I'm not affected by it."
— Pete Quinones, regarding religious faith and fighting spirit ([327:25])

“The time for politics and petty differences was over. Everyone believed it—if you’re going to win, you surrender your ego for the survival of your people, and your civilization, period.”
— Dahl ([146:14])

"There isn't a scenario in which the anarchists—their successes didn't come from pure anarchism, it came from organization, hierarchy, coordination."
— Dahl ([162:50])

"Classical liberalism is the enemy. Sorry."
— Dahl ([473:31])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:13 | Karl Dahl’s background; why he wrote on Spanish Civil War | | 04:09 | English-language literature & leftist domination of the narrative | | 09:45 | Carlists’ organizational genius & emotional roots | | 14:04 | The intensity and atrocities of the Red Terror | | 17:19 | Comparing left atrocities to historical Inquisition | | 36:00 | Propaganda and “spontaneity” myths about the Red Terror | | 47:14 | Decentralization/centralization analogies to U.S. and Spain | | 74:41 | Why the Spanish War is a better U.S. analogy than Bolshevik Russia or Yugoslavia | | 81:20 | “You have to understand your situation & become resolved to deal with it.” | | 125:43 | Carlist militia organizing—“citizen army” by 1936 | | 146:14 | Unification on the right, Franco, and the April 1937 Falange-Carlists merger | | 151:28 | Deep dive: international brigades & role of ideology in the leftist volunteers | | 162:50 | How anarchist ideological rigidity led to their destruction by communists | | 204:10 | Artisanal weapons; anarchist/Phi bomb manufacturing | | 275:54 | How Carlist pre-war organizing “stands out,” lessons for modern logistics | | 300:38 | Excerpt — Irish volunteer: “This is not a civil war. It is a holy war, a Crusade.” | | 346:15 | Faith, martyrdom, Reconquista, and generational struggle | | 473:31 | “Classical liberalism is the enemy.” | | 479:45 | Dahl: “Post-ideological means asking who do you want outcomes for? It’s not theory.”|

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Additional Sections: The Spanish Left, Ideological Roots, and Lessons

The Intellectual Roots of Spanish Anarchism

• Segments [355:00] onward.
• Explains why Spain embraced anarchism: unique blend of federal traditions, “decentralized liberty,” yet explosive social resentment.
• Bookchin, Proudhon, Bakunin, the International Workingmen’s Association, and the importance of 19th-century international radical circuits.
• Fractionalism typifies the left, while right-wing “fascist” groups often learned their tactics by copying the left’s organizing genius (Sorrel, syndicalism).

Applied Lessons for Today

• “Read what your enemies write and plan—study their successful models while being ready to discard every failure.” [81:20/466:40]
• Don’t let ideology prevent practical tactical unity.
• Be ready, psychologically, to move from black-pilling to effective black-pilling: see the system as illegitimate, then choose action.

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Where to Find Karl Dahl

• Substack: karldahl.substack.com
• Twitter: Search “Karl Dahl” or link via his Substack
• Books: Faction with the Crusaders & Faction (both on Amazon)
• Merch: Franco-themed and other right-meme shirts (linked via Substack)

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Final Takeaways & Warnings

“Everything that happened in Spain—the fake legality, the pretend moderation, and then the terror beneath—could happen here. And if it does, the best-prepared, most-organized faction will decide the outcome, not the purest or even the loudest.”
— Karl Dahl ([71:24], paraphrased)

Key lesson: History doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes. The Spanish Civil War’s lessons—tragic, bloody, and deeply human—hold a mirror up to the present West, warning against spiritual acedia, organizational laziness, and the fatal hubris of thinking “nothing can happen here.”

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“You have to start with your house, then your street, then your town—then you can talk about the future of your country.”
— Karl Dahl ([81:20])

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[END OF SUMMARY]

Transcript

[Carl Dahl]

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[Pete Quinones]

everyone back to the Picanono Show. I'm here with Carl Dahl. How are you doing, Carl?

[Carl Dahl]

Doing well, thanks.

[Pete Quinones]

Pete is, I assume Dal is proper. The proper pronunciation. Right? The. That is correct.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah.

[Pete Quinones]

Yep. Okay. Yeah, it doesn't. It's not specifically D O L L but it's going to sound that way to people anyway, so. All right. Tell everybody a little bit about yourself. Sure.

[Carl Dahl]

I am an author and shitposter. I'm the author of Faction and Faction with the Crusaders. The latter being my most recent novel that came out couple months ago which is about, you know, fictional events within the reality of the Spanish Civil War from an American perspective. Because as, as an American it's much easier to tell stories that are informative and interesting from a point of view that you yourself can. Can relate to.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, that's interesting because I think the first book I read about the Spanish Civil War was Mine Worth Trouble. And that's. Yeah, that's coming from a British standpoint. And then there's really the most famous books out there are pretty much from British standpoints. The ones that are in English, the ones that are Spanish.

[Carl Dahl]

The most challenging thing with this topic is just the lack of material in English or it's super, super laser focused on, you know, certain aspects of it. You have, you know, you have good old George Orwell who frankly in Homage to Catalonia explains that he knows nothing about Spain and nothing about what's going on there and nothing about the political parties. But he's a, you know, a libtard. So he stumb in and manages to not die when a Carlos recite shoots him in the throat and stumbles out and you know, escapes from the NKVD in Barcelona. So yeah, it's a. It's it's kind of fraught with that. And the, the material is also very limited that we're exposed to a lot of the good stuff. I heard, I've heard your whole series that you did with Thomas 777 and you make references to some really good source material that's a little bit older, you know, beyond the kind of Hugh Thomases of the world. And that's it's really important to kind of, you know, expand and not just take what the current like supposed authoritative material is off of the shelf so that you can get some insights into a topic that's a lot more complicated. Stanley Payne, specifically, I know that you've mentioned, and he's like the English language specialist on this topic. And very few people have read Stanley Payne, which is a shame.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. Bevor, even though he has obvious leanings towards the left and especially the libertarian left in Spain, he does a really good job of laying out the facts of what happened. And then obviously Paine is the pain is the guy.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah. And it's funny. Have you ever seen any of the, the interviews that are online from students of his, you know, especially as time went by later into the, into the aughts. They're really funny because you have these, you know, basically libtards who know nothing, who are college age who assume that because he is a professor in good standing at University of Chicago and you know, it's talking about. He's like one of the biggest experts on 20th century fascism. Right. As well as the Spanish Civil War. And they're just befuddled because he's like correcting them on. No, I don't really think that, you know, Franco was a, you know, according to Hoyle, fascist. And they just lose their minds when people who are actually informed on these things talk and you know, what does the average person know about Spanish Civil War? They're like, Franco worked with Scary Mustache man and they got rid of a republic, which is bad. And something, something George Orwell. And they haven't actually read George Orwell.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. Or Ernest Hemingway. And everything basically comes out of the left. And if you want to try to find a copy of Kemp's book, and if it wasn't for Mystery Grove and places like that, republishing them, we wouldn't, you know, you're paying 2, 3, $400 for them.

[Carl Dahl]

The nice thing is a fair bit of the old Spanish material is becoming available online or you can order it for pretty cheap. The problem is most people don't speak Spanish or read Spanish I do not. Super. Well, I'm a lot better at it than I was, you know, five years ago because. Little timeline for how I ended up writing this. I've been working on. I've been writing for a long time, but I had to kind of go through the crucible, as it were, personally and grow up so that I could write anything that meant anything that I felt was, you know, worth putting out there. And I had a project that had been sitting there forever, which is my first book, Faction, which is. It takes place in the 90s. It's about a. Essentially a. A family involved in the peripheral world of espionage. You know, semi unofficial, you know, CIA cutout type. The people that are, you know, ex. Ex CIA who administer the. The things from like private companies and stuff like that. You know, the. All the. The dirty tricks and. And black. Black off books things and the kind of. The scion of the. The family who started this whole deal got a start in the Spanish Civil War. And I kind of came up with that a long time ago and I don't know why. And in reality, I didn't know that much about the Spanish Civil War other than like one or two general histories and, you know, Orwell and that BBC documentary series, which is very good. I definitely recommend that people watch that. It's out on YouTube as a. As a, you know, initial toe wedding or if they're just not familiar with it at all. And then after I published that book and I was thinking about what I was going to do next, I was like, I really want to do a prequel, but I. And I think it'll be about, you know, Joseph Shea in the Spanish Civil War. And so I had to get to, you know, get to work researching. And Minor of Trouble was just re. Released by mystery grove in 2019. I think I got the book in 2019 and it was pretty new. And when I read it, it helped me connect emotionally with the story or personally rather with characters and, you know, local color and people. Whereas most of the material is pretty, you know, pretty dry when you're looking at histories and everything like that. And it's interesting to people like us, but how do you create a story, a compelling story out of that? And what I figured out for myself is if I don't have something compelling behind what I'm writing, if there isn't some big things that I'm trying to convey, I'm just not going to be successful at doing so. And so that's what I really needed. That helped me connect and what it really did is get me diving into the Carla recites who I feel like were the most interesting faction of, of the war and their history and most importantly, how they kind of survived as, as a movement over time, you know, failures. And let's try it again. Let's try another, you know, another war failure. Let's try it again, you know, partial success. And then everyone goes into the. The 20th century and is kind of stumbling around and it's just so analogous for our, our current situation. Very different in a lot of ways. And part of what I ended up doing when I was writing this is leaning into those elements where, you know, unfortunately, as it is right now, you know, people on the right, especially online, say, oh well, we would just automatically win a civil war because we have all the guns and because Franco won. And it's like, well, the, the right was extremely organized and they had been trying for. They had been doing this for a really long time by the time the civil war kicked off. And, you know, it's anathema for the right to organize in America now, like in their DNA. You look at libertarians and such and like you, I'm a former libertarian, although I was former earlier than you were. And yeah, it's just like they're completely allergic to it in a fundamental fashion. And even the anarchists of Spain, there's any successes that they had in Catalonia, which they were very successful in my opinion, at least in getting going before their, their beliefs kind of put the brakes on any success they might have. They basically said, let's throw elements of our ideology out the window and let's organize and let's have a hierarchy. And because the. Basically they used to always try to do the old, you know, we'll start a general revolt and then the people will rise up and then we'll win. And that just didn't work. And they finally kind of admitted that to themselves and put into work a very serious effort. And so I have a couple articles about that actually that are on my sub stack as well as in the appendix of this book. One is about how they created the, the Phi bomb, the FAI hand grenade. That shows up a lot in Orwell's work. They have like 35,000 of them. When the anarchist the Darudy column went up to defend Madrid from, from Franco's, you know, oncoming forces because they had spent so much time and effort and money into building as many of these as they could for their pending revolution, which they used the military uprising to kick that off. There's also information about their Organizational structure because I found some really good books on the subject that, that are very obscure because they're, you know, anarchist books and people on the right don't read their enemies works and it would behoove people to do so because there's some really great information in there that would be particularly relevant to. To the. The current age. And that's all I'll say.

[Pete Quinones]

Oh, question the interest in the Carlos. Are you Catholic? Are you Catholic?

[Carl Dahl]

I am, I am Christian, but I'm not Catholic.

[Pete Quinones]

Oh, okay. I was just wondering.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah.

[Pete Quinones]

I.

[Carl Dahl]

Let's just say this awakens some. Some interest in things and I was. When I looked my German side of the family I found were. Were Catholic right up into the 1800s and then became prats along with so much of America in, in the mid-1800s.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. The. For. For those who are Catholic, a really good book on it. I don't know. Did you read the Last Crusade by Carol?

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah, it's in my bibliography that's. That's on my sub stack as well as in the appendix of. Amazing book. So moving. Yeah, it. Just because it was.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. I was. There were. There were times when I was reading it where I got emotional. Yeah.

[Carl Dahl]

I, I had to put it down quite a bit. I lent it to my mother, which wasn't probably the greatest idea because she just said it made me so sad. And I was like well that's, you know, the reason I gave it to you is because she had the whole. Well they overthrew republic and that's bad. And I'm like Nope. They killed 10,000, you know, clergy, nuns, monks and lay people in the first three months of the war. And that was what they were all about. The la revolution social and the social revolution. That's. That was the anarchists. That was the communists. You know the, when you, when you read the why We Failed the. The anarchists actually there's a huge body of work of the Spanish anarchists who went into exile afterwards. The, the people that were involved in all kinds of levels of leadership and it's really interesting stuff and they talk about why they failed and other times they'll refer to it as the necessary defeat of. Of May 1937 or is it possibly July 37 when the. Basically the. The communist central government, the army especially took over Catalonia from the. The anarchists and the CNTFAI decided that they would purge all the. All the various, you know, socialist and anarchist groups that weren't going to cooperate with the central focus of the war. They've written reams of material on this. And it's never the problem. The ideology is never the problem. It's always well, we wanted the social revolution, which was what it was really all about. And it was overthrown by those mean Stalinists. Whereas the Stalinists were like we needed to actually win the war or it wasn't going to go anywhere. And both of those things are true. But they were also horrible evil people and deserved everything they got and more.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, that's one thing that people don't want to hear is when you. One of the reasons why I believe that the so much propaganda around making the Republicans and their faction into the victims of all this is really to just cover up their crimes because 100%. Yeah, yeah. On the right there were some really, there were some. There were crimes that definitely needed to be dealt with especially from some of the folks from Morocco and Northern Africa.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pete Quinones]

But when you come. But when you really compare. I mean right from the beginning. I mean I think we talked about this in our series that looking for

[Carl Dahl]

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[Pete Quinones]

In the span of three months they killed three times more just Catholic clergy and laity and seminarians then were killed in. Were executed in the Inquisition over the span of 350 years.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah. And you know the, the counter to that is because they, they talk about the Red Terror, right? And then there's. And I show some of the Red Terror in the book like one of the main characters before everyone knows what's up with him, he, he has to make a choice when he's on the. The front with the anarchists in AR and they, they're basically going to execute a American volunteer who ended up on the line because he went to Barcelona for the, the People's Olympiad which was scheduled to start the day of the military uprising. It was the, you know there's this whole thing where you know the 1936 Olympics, you know that was when you know, Jesse Owens like defeated Hitler according to television which is silly because that you know Hitler didn't disrespect him or anything like that. It's all this, this post post war cope. But anyway there was an alternative because the USSR boycotted the, the Olympics and they, they hosted a communist international. You know, alternative in Barcelona.

[Pete Quinones]

That.

[Carl Dahl]

And there was instantly like a whole bunch of international fighters that were anarchists and socialists and communists in Barcelona because of this event. And a whole bunch of them ended up on the line, you know, because after capturing Barcelona and Catalonia around it, they started pushing north to Aragon because they wanted to fight the Carlists out in the countryside as well as to just terrorize, you know, all the, all the locals wherever they could. And the Carlists stopped them in kind of southern Aragon. And so this volume, this American volunteer who goes there and because it's an adventure and you know, doesn't really know much in this kind of apolitical, is going to get executed because some of the, the communists taking over the front, you know, they have the army, they have the, they don't have the numbers because at the time all the little local militias were running things and but the, the, the central government's army was being communized. They had the red star on their uniforms for officers and they had commissars and everything like that. And it was being basically managed by the NKVD as well as a huge inter, you know, Soviet international group. This is independent of the International Brigades, but there were a whole bunch of internationals involved as quote, unquote, advisors with the, the Spanish army. And so they're going to execute this guy because he wears his grandfather's crucifix and he's an American and he doesn't really understand what's going on because they're like, oh, well, we're fighting fascists. So I made him kind of a naive college student, right? And so the main character has to make a decision because he's going to get executed. There's a sham trial. The anarchists support him because they were with him. You know, he, he came to the front with them and they like him and everything like that, but the hardliners want to kill him. And so during a Carlist attack on their, on their mostly crappy positions, he, he dips out with the guy, he rescues him in a, in a fun little violent bloodbath and ends up, tries to like, go back to being a, a reporter, you know, which is kind of his cover. Ends up in Madrid and is taken to a checa as soon as the Darudi column gets up into that area and starts spreading information about, you know, their various suspects in all these areas. And so at that point he has to make a, make a choice like, I can't be undercover anymore. I have to do something different. And it's crazy because when, when you look into the, the realities of what was going on. The, the Red terror was horrific and it was going on for a very long time. And the cope is always, oh well, it was at the very beginning and all these disparate groups got out of hand and then the central government tried to rein it in and get control of it. And the truth is there was a fair bit of that on the right as well, but it wasn't nearly as bad. And the big numbers that they bring to the table from the rightist groups committing atrocities are like you said, the, the Moroccan army of Africa troops. So there are some atrocities, but that was nipped in the bud. And you'll notice that there isn't a great deal of information about how it was nipped in the bud. Essentially when you dig into it, some examples were, high profile examples were made that this was not going to be tolerated. They did a lot of looting also. And so that got reined in. And basically after the drive to Madrid and that, the front's kind of stabilized and Franco, you know, things really centralized and Franco really got control over everyone because beforehand it was, you know, you were under your general and that was it. And because they didn't really know exactly who was going to be running things at any given point, it was just a rampage. And then as they consolidated the, the, you know, Franco side of things, they had actual standards of behavior that people would be held to and they, you know, they had trials for these people. Now in fairness and, and I show this in the book as well, the, the general rule was when they captured the, the internationals, they would just execute them, whereas the Spaniards would be triaged, put into camps where maybe they were going to go into a labor battalion, maybe they were going to stay in a prison camp because of atrocities that they committed. They would be investigated. A decent number of them were executed, like, rightfully so. But the vast majority of the people that, that were captured as POWs by the nationalists actually spent very little time in prison camps and in labor battalions. By the end of World War II, they were pretty all out. And in fact, the vast majority of them were out by the early 40s. Because the general policy was if you were, if you were just a volunteer or you were just a libtard, but you didn't commit atrocities. You know, you, your, your service was over in a couple years. You were basically, they guaranteed that you didn't by investigation, that you didn't involve yourself in atrocities and they just put you to work because they needed to bring the country back they needed to dig themselves out of the huge hole that they were in, and they weren't. You know, there's plenty of people now who will criticize that and say that, you know, Franco didn't do enough because look at Spain now. But he wasn't really in a position to do that because of the. The nature of the types of diplomatic conversations that were taking place with the Americans and the Brit. There's a. There's actually a really good book on the subject that's mostly focused on World War II and the. The British kind of maneuvering. Oh, here it is. It's called a balancing act. British Intelligence in Spain during the Second World War. But one of the things that comes out of that is a lot of these conversations happened early in the actual Spanish Civil War because people might forget this, but the nationalists were receiving American trucks and fuel from American and British companies on credit. And so there was a. There was a wink and a nod by the governments of the UK and the US because the British essentially figured out very early that, you know, it would be better to have the nationalists in charge than communist country, you know, in Western Europe. And the other aspect of that is that American intelligence operations were joined at the hip with the British for a very long time, as shown by Bill Donovan, who created the oss, who shows up in this story because coincidentally, he. He was in the same town for conferences as my character when I was doing some research, and I was like, holy. So I. May I make. I make some things happen there? Because Bill Donovan was. I wouldn't say that. Basically, the OSS as it came to be, would not have existed if it wasn't for British intelligence people that he had been working with for years and years, because there was no American civilian intelligence organization. The Secret Service did a fair bit of foreign intelligence, but Bill Donovan worked with FDR because they had both. They were class college classmates, and, you know, he trusted him. And he was a World War I vet. He was in international business. He had gone to. Gone to Russia during the Russian Revolution to. To do intelligence and had been traveling around. And in fact, Mussolini liked him and respected him and allowed him to go to Ethiopia to check out what the Italians were up to there. And so he was literally just like, filing these reports for, you know, the US Government with, you know, Mussolini's blessing, essentially, because he thought he was, you know, a cool guy with a firm grip and who looked you in the eyes. And it's, It's. It's all very interesting how, how personality driven that stuff. Was. But yeah, they had been negotiating with Franco's people forever. And so there was going to be no situation where there was some, you know, insane bloodbath. It was. And I don't think that that was like in the character of Franco either, when you look at what they actually did. I think you mentioned Bevor's book where he has a lot of great numbers and he has the updated kind of Spanish academic official position on a lot of things where they've gone back and they've said, oh, well, we figured out that Aguernica wasn't 1200 who died. There were maybe like a hundred and some. And you know. But it was also really bad. But it wasn't as bad as we think it was because now we know that there was a combat operations taking place. And so, you know, it's. It's all this really interesting stuff where every time you look at something that the right does that is vilified and you examine it, there's all these qualifiers that make it look like stuff that's. Well, this, you know. Yeah, sure, there were some situations where, you know, they. A. A phalangest executed a poet who was a communist, a gay communist or something like that. But does that make up for the fact that they were slaughtering people over here or. Yeah, we know that there was this atrocity in literal combat situation where they shot like the nationalists shot like 1300 people in a bullring over time because they didn't know what to do with all these POWs. And it's like, that's bad. But is that worse than going around and murdering priests and destroying a third of the churches in Spain and, you know, starving people out and, you know, raping nuns and stuff like that? So it's, it's.

[Pete Quinones]

I was just, I was just recorded the other night with J. Otto Paul. I don't know if you're. If you're familiar with Jonathan, with Otto, and he's. His specialty is on basically persecution of Germans in Soviet Russia.

[Carl Dahl]

Ah, interesting.

[Pete Quinones]

And I mean, you don't have to be in wartime. I mean.

[Carl Dahl]

Oh, yeah.

[Pete Quinones]

This is stuff that happens in wartime. I mean, during the terror, they were like 40,000 Germans who just were diaspora Germans who were in the Soviet Union. They just put bullets in the back of their head.

[Carl Dahl]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Pete Quinones]

So it's. Yeah. And, you know, reminder, you know, what side, what side was the Soviet Union on in, in this, in this fight in Spain, obviously. You know, one thing I like to talk about is I call this. I call the Spanish Civil war. World War I and a half. Yeah, because. Yeah, it's just so obvious that if, if Spain, if the, if the Nationalists lose that war, basically the, the bottom half of the peninsula belongs to Soviet Russia.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah, exactly.

[Pete Quinones]

So, I mean, you're going to do anything you can to, to win. And yeah, it's, it's always the, you know, I mean, we can call this, oh, imagine if the roles were reversed or, you know, pointing out hypocrisy, but it's because of who controls the press.

[Carl Dahl]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Pete Quinones]

Who. Whose crimes are. Whose crimes are magnified more than any other.

[Carl Dahl]

You know, it's, it's interesting that you mentioned that because you're reading Blockade right now, which is outstanding and, and I just want to, I want to compliment you on, on what you're doing, reading all these old works that, that address things that people just don't think about. Millions of people died of starvation for no reason. Well, not for no reason. We know why they died of starvation. It was because they had been targeted for death because of who they were, not anything that they did. And, you know, that's, that's not cool, man. The. The. I mentioned Guernica. I mentioned Guernica and this plays out in the book a little bit. Kemp talks about it. I take a. I take a different position than Kemp. It is Ryan Seacrest here. Want to bring a little Hollywood excitement to your day. Take a few spins with Champa Casino's brand new game. Ryan Seacrest 10k ways. It's free and features 10k, 10,000 ways to play, giving you non stop action, including thrilling bonus respins and cascading reels. Every spin brings something new. So step into the spotlight, enjoy the excitement and play today@chumbac casino.com no purchase necessary vgw group void where prohibited by law. CTS&C is 21+ sponsored by Chumba Casino. My position on Guernica was that it was a combat operation that, you know. Yeah, there was a lot of confusion, but it was a combat operation that was exploited for propaganda and it was literally just the very first time something that became basically old hat to the whole world was employed, which was the. The bombing of a civilian population in wartime. And in fact, it's far more justifiable because of the nature of what actually happened, you know. Yes, there's evidence. There was evidence and testimony from eyewitnesses that the retreating Republican forces, particularly the more far left ones who were not Basque, were involved in, you know, doing what they do, which is demolishing buildings and stuff on the approach to, you know, leave rubble, to slow the nationalist advance because they were moving towards that position and were on the ground within a couple days. And so, yeah, it was exploited. It was, it was actual combat. Yes, it's bad when aviation is used to, you know, bomb an area where there's a civilian population. But it was literally just the first time something that became totally normal happened. And so by vilifying someone for it and then you just. World War II, you firebomb, you know, capitals that it only serves to wipe out the. And terrorize the civilian population of a place. It's just that whole, you know, accuse the enemy of doing what you're doing kind of a situation. And in fact, there's another aspect of this that you don't see talked about in English language material. There's a Great website called recites.com it's all Spanish language, but it's basically hardcore traditionalist Catholic guys in. I think Navarre is. The main guy is. Was in Navarre and I've archived it because it's been up for a long time and there isn't that much new stuff that happens to it. So I'm concerned that it'll go away. But it has thousands and thousands of pages of personal testimonies of people who are involved in the Carlist recites and the war in general. And I found a couple books through there that I was able to track down. And one of them was from the guy that was essentially the founder of the. The Rakute militias and the Navarre Brigades. He created essentially their secret army, their, their first militia that was built out in the early 30s because during the Primo de Rivera dictatorship, you absolutely were not going to be getting away with, nor was there a need to get away with creating an illegal mass militia for a right winger. But that was something that was reactivated under the Republic because the Republic was.

[Pete Quinones]

So

[Carl Dahl]

sometimes they'll use the term openly secular and which is really anti religious. Right. Because they were, they were passing laws that were. That outlawed the church essentially that nationalized all church buildings. And then they had to start paying taxes to the state and rent to the state. They banned religious education in a country where pretty much all of the education for the masses was religious in nature. So you would have to basically shut down every school and if you got a school after that you would have communist teachers. Looks familiar. And the, the other aspect of it also is no public expression of religion. No, you know, no parades. They're doing something similar in Poland. Didn't they ban public display of the cross or something like that recently, which is insane.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. In a. What is it, 95 Catholic country.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah, exactly. So, so the, you know, they, they spun up up in the north. And one of the things that isn't talked about that much is that the, it was easy for the, the Carlist recordes to recruit conservative Basques to join the nationalist forces. There were quite a few that were under arms, you know, in the, in the republican militias at. Well, the Basque militias, not the super hardcore lefty Basques like the scudi. And I'm probably mispronouncing that, but, but a whole bunch of the people that were essentially conscripted went over to, to the nationalists, including the guys who designed the, the Iron belt, the defenses of Bilbao. They just went right over to the nationalists and handed the plans over. Here you go. But one of the, one of the decisions that was made after the, the bombing was that because of the fact that not only civilian populations, but a lot of their Basque heritage was being destroyed in the war, the, the Navarre brigades essentially established a policy where they would not tolerate aerial bombing of populated areas. And so they made themselves shock troops and they essentially sacrificed themselves to save the civilian, to reduce the casualties against the civilian population. They took massive, massive casualties in the war in the north. And yeah, sure, there was still aviation bombing, but it was, it was much more coordinated to where they were essentially only approving certain kinds of targets. And there's actually a decent amount of evidence for this and in the testimony in these books. The Navarre Brigade Carlists went into Guernica and established a line around the. What do they call it? The Tree of Guernica, which was outside of their, their hall and was very important to them. They had been essentially giving the law and the, the kings of the Basque regions would be crowned under the tree. And anytime their legislature which had been, would went back a very, very long time under their, their old fueros, their old rights and privileges and the, the legal code that, that they had in place for themselves, which was the whole reason that they had a kind of separatist movement anyway, they, they guarded it with their lives. And there was, there's a story of some, some phalangests from other parts of the country going up there with, with axes to cut down the Tree of Guernica. And the, basically the colonel from the, the Navarre Brigade had a fist fight with another officer in front of it after calling his mother a whore and just like beating each other in front of this, this tree to stop them from destroying Basque heritage. And you Know, it's, it's just not something that's talked about because it was supposedly this thing where, well, the Basque were, you know, with the republic. And it's like, no, that the Basque were hugely Carlist. The north going republic is because they thought that they would get some autonomy out of it and they had some element of limited autonomy under the republic after the war started. But most of the people pushing this were local libtard politicians. And in fact there is a, there's a fellow and let's see if I can, instead of stumbling over my words, I'm going to, I'm going to pull it up myself. But essentially there was a republican politician, AKA Communist, who had always opposed any of the autonomy movements that were going on there. And there was. So his name was Prieto. So Indale Theo Prieto. He was the finance minister and a Basque member of the Socialist Workers Party. And his position was, and I quote, well, I quote a translation is that the Basque Navarre country autonomy campaign underway in the early 30s was merely a front for sedition by Alphonsists heimists, which is the Carlists, nationalists and Jesuits against the republic. And then he essentially dictated that they shut down almost every single Catholic newspaper in northern Spain. And any right winger who was, you know, had ever written a quote unquote intemperate editorial. So it's like this was a clash of. It was a fight for their civilization. And you know, it wasn't some, you know, dictatorship, you know, with a capital D that was imposed. The dictatorship happened because it was a fight to the death. And then it immediately, you know, what happened immediately at the end of the war, World War II happened. So a lot of the things that, you know, when they're, when they're bad jacketing Franco and, and you know, the Spanish nationalists, they say, oh, well, look at the fact that they had food rationing, you know, well into the 1940s. And it's like Britain had food rationing until 1954. Are you kidding me? Like, look at what the rest of Europe looked like. So it was, you know, it's just one of those things where you, you put your time into researching it and it's so obvious what the truth is. And so here I was thinking I'm gonna write something fictional. It has to be focused on, yeah, sure, there's adventure and there's interesting historical elements to it, but there's a greater capital T, truth. And so if, if I'm not addressing that in a way that, you know, not necessarily a polemic you don't want to be people over the head with it, but you want them to come to the same conclusion as you, as if it was their thing that they arrived at themselves. Right. It's propaganda, let's be honest. But, you know, I feel like that's. That's what we have to be doing. There is this great. The earliest reference to Rakute's to reference a Carlist militia is in the early 1900s, and they wrote fame propaganda, which is Catalan for let's do propaganda. And I just loved that so much. I'm like, if I say femme propaganda, it looks like femme, right? So English speakers are going to be like, what the hell is that? But I'll talk about it, but I'm not writing it because people immediately say, that sounds gay.

[Pete Quinones]

One of the things I wanted to go back to is you talked about Prieto and talking about the autonomous zones. I've always had this idea about Spanish history that one of the main reasons why you having autonomous zones and not centralizing power always just seem like a really bad idea. Make it easy for subversives to go. To go in there. Easy for subversives to start working in different areas. And I just don't after. And still you, you know, you look at Spain and it's like, okay, this is still autonomous over here. Autonomous over there.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pete Quinones]

I mean, I just is. As much as I would love to see, like, as much as the idea of decentralization sounds good to me, when I look at someplace like Spain, I'm just like, they should have centralized the power there centuries ago, and a lot of this could have been avoided. Do you agree with me on that?

[Carl Dahl]

You know, it's. I think it's more. I think it's. It's complicated because there's this really cool book from the 60s called A Society Organized for War, Medieval Spain. And I think you can. I think I downloaded it for free online. But it's. What it addresses is the fact that medieval Spain, because of the Reconquista and Thomas talked about this a little bit in one of the episodes that you were. You guys were discussing. Their overall thing was that they. It was a. It was a coalition, right, of all these different, you know, Visigothic lords, frankly, who were feeding the. The whole system, got organized into fighting against the Muslims. Right? And so when. When you look at the history of Spain, I. It's hard to talk about this topic without putting on your Putin hat and saying, you know, we have to go back to the time before the ocean strank. Atlantis and the rise of the sons of Arius. Right. It's. You have to go back and if you look at the settlement of Spain, you'll see essentially that there was a. The. Under. Under. It was a bunch of different ethnic groups, right. In different areas. And under the Romans. And the Romans. It took some time for the Romans to conquer all of the Iberian Peninsula. I. Here it is. I have some maps that I found that are super interesting about this topic. But essentially what happened was there was this old kind of Carthaginian area along the, you know, Mediterranean coast. That was the first area that the Romans took over. And it was a. It was a much more cohesive kind of, frankly, slave plantation area. Without mincing words. The. The Romans directed all kinds of Visigothic groups, the Suebies, the. And brought them in as Federat to govern Hispania, right. And also to get them out of the areas where they were causing trouble. So by kind of the collapse of, you know, the Western Roman Empire,

[Pete Quinones]

there

[Carl Dahl]

was a Swabian region, there was the Basque region. In the north, there was a big Visigothic region that there was a huge sweep of, like the central part of the country from east, from west to east. And then down in the southern areas, which was like Khedive and Malaga and Cartagena, and out into the Balearic Islands that remained part of the east that was controlled by the Eastern Empire. And down in that area there they had the basically slave plantations. And one of the. One of the biggest problems, one of the biggest social problems was that in the north they. They ruled under kind of Germanic legal structure and governing theory that was codified in the fueros, you know, during the, you know, the first millennia A.D. which has noblesse. Oblivious.

[Pete Quinones]

Right.

[Carl Dahl]

Not down in the far southern areas, which were then conquered by the Moors and stayed under the moors for 700, almost 800 years in some places. They never had noblesse oblige down there. And so you had this huge propaganda issue in the 19th and 20th century of the landless peasants, you know, down in the southern areas, who were essentially treated as slaves. Let's not kid ourselves. It was not very pleasant for them. And the thing is, the rest of the country could be traditionalists, like the Carlis could be traditionalists because they had the old rights and privileges that their lords had going back, you know, 1500 years because. And they could all kind of be semi independent because for conquering the whole country, you didn't want to alienate your allies. And if the lord from the northwestern you know, old Suebi provinces, you know, holds his line against the Moors and sends you treasure and troops for your incursions to, you know, move the conquest farther south. You don't really care that they have these old ways of doing things. So, you know, it did shift a little bit over time, but you, you had these different traditions and they didn't really care as long as they were accomplishing their main goal, like the central government. Well, even before they had a full central government under, you know, my brain is blanking out right now. What's her name? 1492 people, you know what I'm talking about, my brain. Isabella, thank you very much. They didn't really care. And so there was a certain level of independence. And then after 1492, they kicked the Moors out, they start going overseas, they start spreading. And because of, you know, the, the nature of who they, you know, the royal family married into and the various holdings that they had, they had people all over the whole world. They were very influential in Europe. So you have this heat sink at this point where you're not too worried about public uprisings in Spain for a couple hundred years. If people have issues, they can go overseas. So it's this big heat sink where people can raise themselves up. You don't really worry about social problems so much because you can just send people to the New World, they can engage in wars in Europe, they can go to Asia. There's all kinds of outlets for these sorts of things until the empire collapses. And then when the empire collapses to your point, you have this precedent that everyone really likes, right, that, you know, they like to have their own independence and their own way of doing things and you don't have a tradition of anything else. So that when you go to the nobles and you try to, you know, impose a little bit of some restrictions on them, they fall back on tradition and say that there's no precedent for that and I've always been loyal and etc. You know, you get to the 19th century and the central government is, becomes liberal, right? That you have that whole succession crisis because of the fact that they put Queen Isabella on the throne instead of Infante Carlos. And the people who supported Infante Carlos did it because they were traditionalists. They see France next door and they say if we liberalize, if we move towards atheism, if we move away from like the system we have, our heads are on the chopping block, they're destroying our religion, they're slaughtering anyone who goes against them. So of course they're Going to have uprisings against the central government. It's, it's one of those things where, you know, when you look at what would have been better, the, the problem is, as you go back, you understand how it arrived at that point and almost how it would have been impossible or it makes sense why, why it ended up that way. And it almost, to me almost seems like an inevitability, like Spain becoming a disaster. Makes sense to me because of the nature of what was going on. Like, look at America. There's been no attention paid to domestic, the domestic situation, you know, they'll talk about it a little bit in political campaigns, but it's to their, like, client groups. Right. And mass immigration, etc. So they, they just undermine, you know, the, the native stock to the point where they have no standing with us anymore. They can't get us to do anything. Even if they, you know, decide that they're going to allow Trump to be president, to have a big digression in this conversation, that's not going to change people's minds. He's not going to be able to be like, oh yeah, we're going to have a war and it's going to be great. Like, I just don't think that's going to happen for the people that are the target demographic for that kind of a talk, you know, in their teens and twenties. It's just, it's just not going to happen. Even, even if on paper it would make sense to do it and it would have been better to do it. It's easy to understand. The easiest choice is always the path of least resistance at any given point in time. Right. Yeah.

[Pete Quinones]

I don't know. It's, it's something I think about because in studying this, you know, I really go back all the way to 711 and just see the progression and see how things work.

[Carl Dahl]

Oh yeah.

[Pete Quinones]

And then you have, you have the golden age. Golden ages are going to end and you know they're going to end. So what do you do? How do you set it up? Everything seems to be working perfectly fine. The ink. They get rid of the Inquisition. As soon as they get rid of the Inquisition, you have three. You have the three Carlos wars almost in a row.

[Carl Dahl]

Yep.

[Pete Quinones]

And it's, it just built and built up to it and built up to it and it's just. Yeah. You try to look and you're like, okay, so what could they have done? I don't know if there's anything they could have done because it just, it seemed like an inevitability especially when like in 1860, 68 finale shows up, you know, bringing Bakunin and bringing Bakunin, Bakunin as Marxism with him and you know, Andalus, Andalusia. See, you know, just open arms, just adopts.

[Carl Dahl]

Absolutely.

[Pete Quinones]

You're just like, okay, well we know what's going to happen. And within what from 68 you're looking at there's a. 60 years.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah.

[Pete Quinones]

And.

[Carl Dahl]

And Asturias, like Astorias, the Asturian miners were some of the best paid people, you know, who are non nobles.

[Pete Quinones]

Right.

[Carl Dahl]

There were some of the best paid working people in Europe for quite a long time and they completely embraced anarchism. They, they were the most feared sappers and, and forces in general in the, on the republican side, in the civil, they understood explosives and tunneling and everything like that. They were organized and they would organize to accomplish things and, and they had just, they had shed religion and gone all in on this seething anarchism in the 19th century. And they just kept at it and kept at it and kept at it. And that's where that 1932 was it 32. Was the failed uprising there or was it 34? I'm trying to remember. I think it might have been 34, but. Or there were multiple ones actually. Yeah, just, just it, it plants the seeds and they, they go bananas. That's another element is like in. In Basque country the looking for a little Hollywood style fun. Check out Ryan Seacrest 10K Ways exclusively at Chumba Casino. There's 10,000 ways to play get spinning for free at champacasino.com no purchase necessary vgw group void we're prohibited by law CT's and C is 21 plus sponsored by Trump A casino. The people in the countryside and the small towns were in. The wealthier people of course were going to be more conservative and there was a huge amount like the big push for anarchists and socialists in Basque country were from people who emigrated from other provinces into the cities to work in the cities, to work in industry. Because people say, you know, Spain never industrialized. And it's like no, they were. They just industrialized in pockets like Barcelona and coastal Catalonia had a fair bit of industry. And up in the Basque country there was a great deal. And then Asturias there was a lot because of the mines up there and the, in the ironworks in Oviedo and Gijon. Yeah, it's. It's one of these things where you see that, you see the patterns that show up elsewhere and it's. It's just so tough because it's kind of. They had to go through it themselves just like everyone else. And sometimes you just end up in a situation where this, it just explodes because of the, it was just unreconcilable at a certain point. There's this great, I can't remember what book I read it in, but there was a great observation by a guy after the war who, he was either on a train or a tram, or he was a tram conductor, I can't remember. And he said that it was springtime in like 1935. And he said this absolutely beautiful like 20 year old upper middle class gal gets on the tram and he said she was just jaw droppingly beautiful. And this worker sitting next to him was just seething, looking at her, saying, that disgusting rich pig. And he said, if a guy cannot like just sit back and appreciate, you know, a beautiful woman like that, it means you have major, major social problems.

[Pete Quinones]

Well, you know, people don't want to hear this because you're, you know, people in Europe knew what these communists did during the Spanish Civil War.

[Carl Dahl]

Yep.

[Pete Quinones]

People in Europe knew about the Red Terror, knew what was going on there, knew that Germans were being killed, that Latvians were being killed, that Poles were being killed by the tens of thousands. They knew this was happening. When I say people, I'm talking about leadership. Yeah.

[Carl Dahl]

Yes.

[Pete Quinones]

How do you react to that? How do you react, you know, how do you react to that? When you know it's coming for you, what do you do? What do you do?

[Carl Dahl]

Well, the, you know, conservative elements within the army had been organizing for a long time since before the establishment of the, the Republic. Because there had been coups, quite a few coups in Spanish history. As, as, you know, 19th century was just like war, coup, war, coup and military dictatorship. You know, in the 20s, you know, primo diver. Primo de Rivera is essentially appointed dictator with the blessing of the king. Because the, you know, the, the Cortez and everything are just a disaster. Just, they just need it. There was street fighting all the time between socialists, anarchists and especially the Flange, but also the, the Carlists. And a lot of these kind of like car youth groups ended up serving as essentially self defense forces for, you know, Catholic traditionalist events. They would be patrolling the areas around, you know, traditionalist events to protect them from attacks from anarchists and communists. Sounds familiar. And the, in the. I forgot. Exactly. But as soon as the Republic became a thing, which is kind of, it's pretty illegitimate the way that it was arrived at essentially there, there was, there were Local elections, where the, it was framed as a mandate in the press for the establishment of a republic and the tossing out of the old system. And so it just kind of happened and, and it, and there's, there's sort of a parallel when you look at what happened in Russia where people just lost confidence in the old system and so they waited too long before the White army like asserted itself again. The, the advances of the, of the Reds were, were massive because a lot of people kind of bought the propaganda that they were going against the failure of the old system instead of it actually having a very clear goal. Right. When you look at the memoirs of the people in the Republic, the people in most of the political parties, they didn't believe in a republic. The, the conservatives certainly did not. The, the traditionalist commune or, or however you want to translate it, the, the, the Carlist political party and parties because there were a bunch that kind of fell under that bucket. They never ever communion traditionalista. They never ever believed in the Republic because they felt that it was a race to the bottom right. Like most people's opinions, they don't belong in determining how you, how you govern and you can be manipulated too easily. And so they only ever like in their own language and terms, as they always say, oh well, we're participating in Parliament as a means of political mobilization and to maintain momentum and visibility and to organize ourselves, to prepare ourselves for when there's going to be violence, whether we start it or someone else starts it. There was a Carlist politician who said the principal Carlist tool when striving for political power has always been a rifle and not a ballot paper. And it's just, you know, it's just charming with, with how direct it is. But the, the Socialists and Communists that talk about the Republic, they were insane. They were bloodthirsty lunatics and it shows through and everything. And like you said, the leadership of Europe knew what was going on. And for quite a while, like the very beginning of the war especially, that was the message even in the American press. I mean there was of course, you know, there was a big sea change as we went into World War II. And in, you know, essentially what happened there where a huge falling away of kind of traditionalist right wing viewpoints because of just the nature of the coup that happened during World War II and the quiet overthrow. But there was a lot of very candid talk about what was going on there. And even, you know, the British government knew that they were better off working with the nationalists than, than the Republic. Although they would later use, you know, the whole Hitler thing, you know, to their advantage when talking about, you know, and negotiating with, with Spain for, for their own purposes. But yeah, it was absolutely people, plenty of people knew what was going to happen there. There was no scenario where had they won, it wouldn't have been Russia all over again and establishing a strong foothold in Western Europe. And, and might I add, might I add that at the time of the Civil war, the French government was under Bloom and his socialists and they too achieved their electoral quote, unquote victory by using the Popular Front model, which is exactly what the so called Republicans did in 36, early 36, before they went nuts and just started, you know, rounding up politicians and having government officials execute them and stuff like that, which caused, you know, the jump off of the, of the army revolt to happen.

[Pete Quinones]

Well, let's cut it right there and I invite you to come back anytime. Let's continue this conversation because this needs to go on. This is. Am I wrong in saying that what we see happening in the United States could be, especially in certain regions, would be closer to the Spanish Civil War than anything else?

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah, I, I agree with you with that. I know that Matt Bracken, who, who I respect has, has said Yugoslavia times, Rwanda, but, and there's a lot to say about that, but I honestly think that the Spanish Civil War model is closest to it. And again, everything that I write an article about, either on my sub stack or that's in the appendix of the book. And any story that happens in the book, you know, even though it's a fictional, a fictional telling in a real setting is there for a reason. And that main reason is I think that this is coming and we have to be ready for it and we have to stop fooling ourselves because I honestly think that this is happening sooner rather than later.

[Pete Quinones]

Well, that's a good warning. All right, tell everybody where they can get the book about your sub stack and everything and we'll end this great

[Carl Dahl]

faction with the Crusaders. Available at Amazon. You can check out my substack at Karl Dahl. K A R R L d a h l.substack.com I sell silly T shirts. Like I have a Franco, Franco, Franco T shirt on there that I just dropped last week trying to do some more cheeky stuff, but it keeps getting banned by producers. So trying to work through that, but thus far, Franco, Franco, Franco. Staying up. I'm on Twitter. I do a very bad job of engaging with Twitter because frankly, I don't like Twitter. Tired of shadow banning and stuff like that.

[Pete Quinones]

Nobody. Nobody likes Twitter.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah. If you look for Carl Dahl there, I won't give you the name because I had Cowdeo doll and then it got scrambled by. By Twitter's account name set up. So just look for me there's also.

[Pete Quinones]

All right, Carl, I'll talk to you again soon. Thank you.

[Carl Dahl]

All right, thanks a lot.

[Pete Quinones]

I want to welcome everyone back to the Picanha Show. He is back, and we're going to talk more about the Spanish Civil War. Carl Dahl. How are you doing, Carl?

[Carl Dahl]

Doing well, Pete, thanks. How are you doing?

[Pete Quinones]

Doing good, man. You reached out. You said, I even have materials to share with people talking about. I guess we talked last time, and I guess one of the biggest points you tried to make was that what was happening before the war closely resembles the kind of tensions, the kind of situation we have now. And then you said, well, maybe it's a good idea to talk about how the right factions came together. Because just as in this country, the right factions are split, some hate each other. People are quoting me now saying, the left gets their radicals elected, the right cancels their radicals. Yeah. So, yeah. Where do you want to start?

[Carl Dahl]

I think we can take it from the top with my little slideshow, so it's not just a little speech. Thank you, sir. Yeah. Just to reiterate, I have a lot of material that I'm going to be talking about or referring to out of my substack, which is karldahl.substack.com you can see me on Twitter. Also, I have two books that are published. One is Faction, which is adventure story in the 90s. That pertains to the prequel, which I released this year, which is Faction with the Crusaders, where the elder statesman of the Shay family gets involved in the espionage business during the Spanish Civil War. So the, you know, I was working in my elevator pitch for why we talk about the Spanish Civil War.

[Pete Quinones]

Right.

[Carl Dahl]

And you already alluded to a couple of these details here. One is that it's the conflict. You know, again, as they say, history doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes. It rhymes the closest, I think, to what we're likely to face here in the United States. I'm also fond of Matt Bracken's Yugoslavia Times Rwanda. Although external intervention is a big detail there. It's a big detail in the Spanish Civil War. But I think in terms of the way things play out, it's pretty similar. And let's be honest, one of the reasons, One of the key reasons why it's the Spanish Civil war and not, for example, the Bolshevik Revolution. And it could be wishful thinking, but I don't think that that's the case. I believe pretty strongly in, you know, a lot of the population here acting and reacting instead of just passively watching the communists get all the, you know, get the, get the ball rolling. You know, in the Bolshevik Revolution, the, one of the biggest problems was that the establishment were so much like the GoPE in terms of like just letting everything happen and they were completely just controlled opposition. That was absolutely not the case in the, in the lead up to the Spanish Civil War. And we'll talk in detailed fashion about that here in just a minute. And the final point being, you know, we've heard the death rattle of the myth of the 20th century, deliberate, you know, illusion there. But the lesser known battles of the interwar period are back on the table for study. People have not studied the Spanish Civil War in English, hardly at all. They typically have like a very basic meme level understanding of it. You know, the English, I've talked about it incessantly. You've talked about it. Thomas has talked about it, the English language material. There aren't that many good sources for it, but there are good sources and we want to point you guys towards that. So when we talk about why the Spanish Civil War in the United States, you know, stuff happening, rhymes or could rhyme, what those parallels are. So in Spain, the empire collapsed. America, we're still, you know, in that kind of height of empire as things are crumbling around us, right? So like the empire is, seems invincible or has seemed invincible, but the cracks are everywhere. And in fact, I would say the past two years we've seen the cracks more than to the point that it's undeniable, especially when you look overseas. People were really, really worried in 2020, like we're in this like invincible empire. Our enemies are implacable. We're going to have to, you know, just go underground. You know, every fight is generational. You know, there's, there's no final victory except in Christ. But politically in the world there's no final victory. It's a constant effort. But I think we're seeing that the empire is much weaker and in fact the consensus has broken. I think think you've talked about it a lot. 2020, 2021. A huge percentage of the population sees our system as completely illegitimate at this point. So I have this bullet point down below delegitimized political systems. We'll talk about the Spanish experience here in a few minutes because it's different. It's different than ours, but it relates to the deep divisions inherent to the population, which we'll touch on shortly. And we've talked about extensively. Like, one of your key points is Spain was so decentralized, and it was just because of the nature of what was needed during the Reconquista. And then post Reconquista, that was the tradition, you know, the easiest thing to do is to do nothing. There was. There were attempts at centralization in the 19th century that were really more clashes between liberalism and tradition than a centralization of people who are on common ground. So, you know, the centralization based on common ground is a big struggle. But we will talk about that in more detail here shortly, because that's a really important thing to understand about how the Spanish dealt with it, because, again, that's the main thing I want to talk about here. The Spanish, right, united constantly at every turn. And I think we'll see some very clear parallels. I will be specific about parallels and observations that I have about, like, current discourse as it relates to that. You know, Pete, hop in it at any time to share your thoughts on that as well. And then finally, a tradition of violence. Yes, sir.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. I think it's interesting that Paul Fahrenheit and I are doing a Spain, Golden Age of Spain, and we're recording last night. And is one of the things that we brought up last night was that the decentralized nature of Spain during the Reconquista, it was almost necessary because then you could build up certain areas and then you can come together finally. And really, it was only really Castile and Aragon that came together to do it. Yep. But then after the Golden Age, after everything starts to fall apart in the late 1600s, then you have the divisions again and you have the autonomous zones. And, you know, I've come to the conclusion that the only way that Spain can survive as the Catholic nation it's supposed to be is as an imperium. It can't be these autonomous areas.

[Carl Dahl]

Yes, yeah, absolutely. And I, you know, one of the big themes in America that we talk about and you. I mean, I heard you talking about it yesterday when I was listening to. Oh, gosh, it's been so many episodes lately is there's the decentralization, there's the independence movements, there's. Or just kind of a soft breaking away. You know, if the, the, if the state is weakened or if the state is hostile to you, you create parallel institutions. And so that's how you deal with it. We will talk about that. Here as well. And because the Spanish did exactly that. And again, this is about not just a historical, a thing of historical interest. We all love history, but we are talking about history because it's so relevant to our current experience, whether it's in America, it's in the uk, it's in Ireland, you know, our cousins are fighting it out. And I will have some editorials about the not very accurate observations people are making about what's going on over there and its implications. So the final point, you know, talking about violence is that Spain and the US have, they're founded on struggle and conquest. The, the niceties of political debate. There's, there's, I would say, for example, if you, if you were to talk about the Netherlands right now, the people, and this isn't an insult and it could be inaccurate, this is me observing as a dumb American who's been there. But the Netherlands is a nice country based on, you know, that that has a very vibrant military history, but there is a cooperative, monocultural element to it that makes it a little less inherently dedicated to, you know, violence. That's not the case with America, that's not the case with Spain. Things are more likely to go hot in places that don't have hundreds of years of peace, like the UK for example. There wasn't a battle fought on the British Isles for hundreds of years. If you, if you really think about it, it's been a very, very long time since there were actual battles fought there. And you can talk about, you know, the IRA doing bombings in London and stuff like that. I think that's a little different. It's still important to think about, but that's a big thing in America is that we had a civil war not that long ago. So our, you know, anything that happens now is going to be different than that. But we also have, you know, we're filled with veterans of the global war on terror, Vietnam, etc. And so, and as well as just general crime has been at the point where there's a huge percentage of the population that is just completely assuming that they're probably gonna have to kill people to survive, especially now as things are ramping up. So very, very important to understand. So again, we're here to talk about three keys to the Spanish rights success. This is a big one and it's really important. And I think a lot of people, when they talk about getting red pilled is you have to understand your situation and you have to become resolved to how to deal with it. We talk about the red pill and we talk about the black pill. We don't want people black pilling. My opinion, having gone through it, is that you have to get black pilled on the current system and then come through it. Kind of like the litany against fear. You have to emerge from the fear and the black pill to be like, okay, what are the ramifications of the situation? And then there's people who just dwell in the hopelessness, nothing ever happens, etc. Other people are like, well, actually, now that I understand the situation that we're all in, what do I have to do in my life to make my situation better? And then build on top of that? And you have to start at your house, in your household, before you can go to your street, before you can go to your neighborhood, before you can go to your town or city or county and go up from there. So you have to understand your situation and then you have to be resolved to deal with it. And the Spanish right was always ready for that because they were anti Republican. We'll talk more about that shortly. They were opposed to the system that was being forced on them. They prepared for war with the same degree of commitment and effort as the left did. This is different than individuals having lots of guns. Individuals are. And their own guns are important, but it's less important than a mass of individuals who are friends, working together and having guns and logistics and plan and training and discipline and leadership. And then finally, which is the key focus here, although the above pieces will be talked about pretty extensively, the Spanish Right set aside their factional differences before the war had even begun and unified at every turn. I started to say the Spanish left, the Spanish left was fragmenting pretty much right away between the anarchists and the other groups. And then the communists asserted themselves and became dominant and started snuffing out anyone who opposed them. So you were always afraid of the people that you were associated with on the left, whereas the right, that was not literally not a problem beyond people who were, you know, huge problems that had to be dealt with. We'll talk about that here shortly.

[Pete Quinones]

So, yeah, I hope people get that from the reading of Last Crusade that yes, the left, the left was, they were not unified. The anarchists, the anarchists wouldn't obviously want to do their own thing. The communists, the Republicans, the ones who were basically statists, I mean they all three of them were constantly, constantly in battle against each other. And yeah, I mean the right, they figured it out right away, if we're going to beat this evil, we're going to have to come together and just put all this crap aside.

[Carl Dahl]

And one of the things that makes it a little challenging in retrospect for people is that these groups seem really different. You know, the. The Carlists, it seems really weird because there's this whole royal succession argument, and it seems so quaint and weird to people in the current age that almost doesn't matter. The. The Carlists, that line of the Bourbons, the House of Bourbon, they were the leadership. They were the. They were a symbol for the hardcore traditionalists who preferred the old Deal, which was basically pre medieval about you had duties and privileges in this stated charter, and there were defined class relations and the church and the local legal system were joined at the hip. And any issues that you had, you had support from your class, from your family, from your community, from the church to negotiate these things. Whereas under democracy, you're on your own. Right? And again, democracy versus republic. It was a republic through which democracy was enacted. That whole. We're supposed to be a Republican, now democracy is bullshit. Stop. All right, okay, so key point. This is a image from Navarre in 1936 in Pamplona, which was the heart of the Carlist uprising and organization. This is a scene where, if you look closely, and it's going to be hard for a lot of people, but if you kind of squint, you'll be able to see what I'm talking about. You'll notice over here that these guys have flags that appear black. These guys have white flags that have. It's actually a red bar. It's kind of like the Stars and Bars, but it's just a solid kind of a jagged red. That is the Carlist flag of the House of Bourbon. Bourbon over here. These are the Falange, the Spanish Phalanx. And they're typically referred to as fascist. And these guys are traditionalist royalists who are also called fascists by the Spanish left. And Bubba Wallace here from 2311 racing on the track. My car's looking look is everything but today I'm talking about more than just paint schemes. I'm talking about my favorite games at Chumba Casino. Check out exclusives like Stampede Fury and

[Pete Quinones]

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[Carl Dahl]

It's just as wild as my car looked in Texas. With over 200 games and new ones weekly play for free at chumbacasino.com let's Chumba. Sponsored by Chumba Casino. No purchase necessary. VGW group voidwear prohibited by law. 21/members and conditions apply. Lib tarts everywhere. And you will notice there aren't that many of these guys, but there sure are a heck of a lot of these guys. They didn't care that they were mustering under these separate units. They would muster side by side. They were plugged into the military uprising and the logistics provided by the army barracks in Pamplona under General Mola. They didn't really care because they had all been talking to each other for a while and they were fighting the same enemy. So, heck, why would I care if this guy likes slightly different optics and talking points than me? Very key understanding here. They unified. They set aside their differences. People make so much of their differences and they unified. Didn't matter now. They did have some challenges and some struggles for power later. Who cares? Let's talk about before the war. So this will be really familiar to people who, especially people who are around, you know, mine and Pete's ages. If you were ever observing anything related to the Irish Republican army in Sinn Fein or however they pronounce it. I'm not Irish. I don't speak Gaelic. Every political party, when you study this period, if they survived, they had multiple elements and structures in it. And I've written some articles about this. I have an article about the CNT faith and their structure and the way they organized. We'll talk about that in a little more detail later. But the long story made short is there's an electoral party. They have newspapers that, that are associated with that party or faction. There's. They're tied into labor unions because again, this is about organizing and mobilizing people socially and on the ground and also that feeds into financing them. There's also student and youth organizations and that's where a lot of the energy comes from, these groups. One thing that will be very interesting is anyone who was in Boy Scouts of America is going to be familiar with this concept. The Boy Scouts of America, when you achieved the rank of Eagle Scout, if you joined the military, you automatically became a corporal when you finish boot camp because you already had this paramilitary training and leadership training. And typically what would happen is like in boot camp you would assert that, right? Like you have these organizational skills and this basic knowledge of, you know, rucking and, and all this stuff. And so this is where you get the energy. Old guys, you know, with beer bellies at the range shooting their 1700 dollar twenty twos are not the core of a militia. And they will, they won't make up the core of a militia, but they can train the like 17 year olds, your Kyle Rittenhouses of, of the world to Become radicalized and become the militant underground. So to become a paramilitary or a street fighting force or a self defense force that will go out and defend your faction when you're attacked by these other groups. We'll talk more about who all these parties are in a second but I want you to kind of familiarize with these with the optics on display here. It's pretty obvious what's going on here. So there's. It's really important to understand that I. Oh my goodness. I corrected the. The content of the slide but not the title. It's the Second Spanish Republic. My apologies everyone. Spain is now in the current. In the Third Spanish Republic there were attempts at republics. Only one succeeded officially in the 19th century for not very long period of time. So 1931 was when the Second Spanish Republic was proclaimed. Essentially they had been trying really hard, the libtards had been trying really hard and pushing really hard in the 19th century to establish a republic in Spain. And there were three wars by the traditionalist groups against the various factions that were involved. One of the key factions being a liberalized like constitutional monarchy and a parliament that was representing the like public political orderly fight between the traditionalist royalists and the everyone else basically liberals, whatever you might want to try to call them. The street fighting in and general uprisings. Because of the failures of all these things, because of all the social turmoil that took place in the early 20th century. It got to the point where there was a dictatorship that was a military dictatorship that was established with the blessing of the king, in which a military general, Miguel Primo de Rivera was appointed dictator for a period of seven years. And a bunch of the kind of right wing factions or what would eventually become the right wing factions in the Spanish Civil War were working with the establishment to tamp things down through officially or through local militias that were semi legal etc. The essentially there that. But the overall mood got to the point where there were elections in 1931, where the, the republican elements, which was where these vast coalitions of communists, anarchists, socialists and various types of supposedly moderate republican anti anti monarchists won so much in these local elections. And the most importantly the press had been saying and again the press is associated with political parties and people with lots of money. The press declared oh well, this is a essentially a peaceful legal uprising against the monarchy. We all want the Republic. The King fled the country and the second Spanish Republic was proclaimed. I am hand waving slightly. It's not really worth diving into extreme levels of detail here. So you're like Oh, a republic. That's great. Just like America. It's more like the, the quote unquote Republic of France. And that's not even quote unquote. I should say think of the murderous uprisings in, you know, the French Revolution and the republic that was proclaimed there. It was anti monarchist, it was anti church, it was anti tradition. Basically, long story short is the leftists went wild, burning churches, murdering right wingers like crazy. When you see again, this is the. According to the libtards that there was religious and land reform, well, what that meant was they essentially overnight said, well, you don't own more, more than like 32 acres of land. And so the idea there was like small holders, you know, like the middle classes and peasants theoretically wouldn't be impacted by this and only the large landholders. In fairness, and I always add this caveat because I agree with the Falange and the a lot of the Carlists, which is that there was a system, especially in Andalusia, where there was essentially a landless peasant slave labor situation on the Latifundia, which was a system of vast estates that went all the way back to at least the Romans and probably predated the Romans, that had never really been reformed. Even after the Reconquista. There was never a route of noblesse oblige, there was never the fueros, as you saw in the north, where all the different classes had these clearly defined rights. It was this kind of tragic situation that wasn't addressed after the Reconquista. Call me a libtard if you want, I don't care. I'm in good standing with some of the hardest core motherfuckers out there, including Francisco Franco on the subject. Francisco Franco did away with the system. They removed that because it was not morally cool. And it also took away a weapon from the future left. So as you can imagine, people don't like having their land taken away. They don't like having the chaos that comes with that. And keep in mind, it didn't mean that this happened overnight because people would still have to go out, take the land, take over it, start running, running it, kick people off, whatever. It was a lot of conflict. The religious one was even worse. And the religious one is what really radicalized, quote unquote, or made people wake up on the right. And that's where they basically banned the church. And Spain is Catholic Spain. There were no schools or almost no schools that weren't given to people by the church. There was almost no education, there was almost no charity. There was almost no distribution of resources for the poor that wasn't associated with the church doing it. The church is very important. They didn't have counselors at the time. They didn't have psychology and psychiatry outside of the cities. You talked to your priest. The priest helped with everything. Remember me talking about the fueros and how the church intervened in legal disputes and helping settle on what's appropriate punishment for people and sentences and you know, resolving local situations between great landholders and poor people and working people. The church and the libtards said, nope, no more church. Bye bye. You couldn't even have a religious procession in public. In fact, in many cases it was interpreted as you couldn't even have the cross displayed outside. The churches were nationalized. The beautiful cathedrals of Spain, of which there are many and they are awe inspiring and moving were nationalized and had to start paying rent to the state. They started killing people. You couldn't have a school unless you had an approved libtard teaching you, which meant that you had a communist. Yeah, people did not like this at all. So in 1933, lawfully, legally, the right wing won electorally like crazy. Now here's the important thing to keep in mind. The Republic would not appoint the. They would not follow their own rules as it related to the way that they should have behaved during this election. Because the conservative Catholic party Seda Ceda won a majority of house seats or parliamentary seats. But the President of the Republic Azania refused to appoint the head of Seda, Jose Maria Gil Robles or anyone from Ceda as a prime minister. You know, they, they, they had a majority, refused to do it. So he appointed this guy, Alejandro Le Roux, who was a old school political operator from this party all the way over here at the right that's in a box. The Radical Republicans. They're important to understand because they were a thing for quite a long time and they essentially disappear by 1935, end of 1935 I should say. So here's the head of the government essentially whose own party is and who is assembling, you know, a coalition government with as many leftists and quote unquote moderists and centrist conservatives as he can, trying to deny the right wingers, Seda Communion traditionalista, etc from having actual party party power. Excuse me. So the, one of the concessions is that the head of say the Gil Robles was Minister of War. So he was connected to the military, which was actually convenient. They kind of thought that that was a joke because they're like, well we're going to be doing the Social Revolution and all these other, other parties. So who cares what the military does? Because the military is this decrepit organization in mainland Spain and all the hardcore right wing fighters are across the water in Morocco and the Canary Islands. So who cares, right? Pretty funny. That bites them because they're arrogant libtards. So anyway, 1934 there is a quote unquote response, a reaction to the reactionary is getting all this oppressive power and they're so worried that fascism is. Is rising, right? So there are general strikes and uprisings. There's a big revolt in Asturias with the miners where the army has to go in, including Francisco Franco. The Republic sends the army in to deal with this stuff because these guys are out of control. And then they're like, oh crap, we got to send the army like militants off somewhere. So they sell. Send Franco to the Canary Islands where he can't bother anyone, they think. And then they send Mola to Pamplona because they're like, that's a backwater. No one cares about Pamplona, the Carlist heartland anyway. So you'll see that I have the words at the polls and in the streets here. So. So the parties at bottom, there's the Republican Left, which is a Zionist party. And they are basically like the democrats now where they are very radical, but they have all these trappings of the processes and everything. And then you'll see there's Republican Left of Catalonia, which is associated with them, kind of like DSA types, but Catalonians, so separatist and Catalan. The Republican Union is their national group. It's a.

[Pete Quinones]

It's a.

[Carl Dahl]

Again a bunch of libtards. The POUM are Trotskyist communists, so less international, or at least not Soviet aligned. And then there's the PCE, which is the Communist Party of Spain, which is 100 aligned slash controlled by the Soviet Union. They're rising in the streets. They're getting people riled up. End of 1935, LaRue's coalition Government coalition collapses. New elections are called for a zanya. Still the president. What happens all these parties on the left. The Republican Left, the Republican Left of Catalonia, the Republican Union, poum, PCE and a bunch of other parties. Not the anarchists, though I'll point out. The anarchists are like, we don't want to have anything to do with the electoral process. We don't want to give our consent to this oppressive system. They unify in a Popular Front. The Popular Front is a electoral strategy that was created by the Communist International as a tactic in the 1930s and saw pretty great success in Spain and in France. France had a Jewish left wing Socialist president, Leon Bloom, right about this time. So the Popular Front fortifies the election, which means they stole the election. Just like in 2020, the radical Republicans aren't radical enough. So they go away, they cease to be a power. This is not taken well by the right wingers who see this continuous escalation. They see the Republic is attacking them and their way of life and their religion and everything that they believe. And when they go out to vote, they are suppressed ruthlessly at the polls. Ballot stuffing, ballot harvesting, all the tricks. And so they're like, this system is illegitimate. So let me step back a touch and talk about how we got to this point. This here is the, the Seda symbol. And again, this is the mainstream right wing, mostly monarchist political party. This is the Carlist. They were represented by the Communion Tradition Traditionalista, which was their electoral party. But they were never about voting. Their whole thing was, we will participate in elections to improve our position for the inevitable war to come, because we know what's coming. And then right here is the symbol of the Falange. And the important thing to understand is the creator of the Falang was General Miguel Primo de Rivera's son. And when, from the moment the second Spanish Republic is proclaimed, you need to understand that the right wing parties were not pro republic because they saw democracy as a deterioration of authority. They felt that their old deal was better. There was the situation, particularly in the cities, where as the cities grew and industry developed, especially in Catalonia and up in the north and Basque country, and you had these deracinated elements leaving, you know, where they were from to work in the cities. And they became deracinated because they were in an alien environment. You had in the north, non Basque from, you know, all over, kind of the areas ringing, ringing Basque country. Who would feel alienated in the cities working in industry? Very similar story to what you see in the US in the, in the 19th century with like, how the Irish responded, you know, the perfidious Irish who became left wingers. That's me slightly teasing. I love my Irish brothers and sisters, but you know what I'm talking about, about the left wingers, because you live in the cities, so they fall for all the tricks. But you can also understand it because you're essentially deracinated and weakened. You're a, you're a weak individual serving as labor for the, the capitalist classes. So the falling gay was a, an Attempt to mitigate that in, in the kind of. In the tradition of the fascists and the National Social Socialists, which is like, we need to have a system that considers like all classes and brings them together. Whereas the traditionalists are like, we have that system. It's the old system. It didn't really work out that way though because these aliens would pop in and they were like almost classless labor class. So anyway, November 1931. It doesn't take long for the anarchists and the communists to say, hey, under this supposed Spanish Republic, there's not a lot of authority. There's no one putting their boot in our face as we so rightly deserve. Let's have general strikes and attack our political enemies. Violence skyrockets. Just from this point on, it's completely banana. December 1931. The Spanish Republic passes the radical anti Catholic constitution as I was talking about before, essentially banning the church as much as they could. And the right wing says, forget it. The Carlists form their own political party. Yes.

[Pete Quinones]

Even though it was pretty much written down, it was more of a de facto.

[Carl Dahl]

Yes, that's a very good point, Pete.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, it wasn't de jure. It was. It was de facto. It was like, you know, are you still going to church? You know, and they probably wouldn't say anything to grandmothers. Yeah, grandmothers. It's fine. They're not, they're not a dangerous to anyone. Let them go and do their thing, yada yada. They're going to die soon anyway. But you're going to get pressure at this point upon the youth.

[Carl Dahl]

Yes.

[Pete Quinones]

And that's, that's, that's the most important thing to take away from this anti Catholic constitute. Not. Not only. That is. Well, you can see five years before 1936, July to December of 1936, that this, this Catholic hate and the, the murder, the murder of clergy and the burning down of churches. This wasn't something that just came up.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah, very good way to put it. Let me read something very briefly. That is from the. At the time, a moderate Republican. When LaRue in 1906, he. Remember at this point in time in the 1934, he becomes the kind of reactionary coalition creator for the Republic to tamper the, say, the victory. So this is the moderate, the future moderate larue speaking in 1906, quote, young barbarians of today enter and sack the decadent civilization of this unhappy country. Destroy its temples, finish off its gods, tear the veil from its novices, raise them up to be mothers, to viralize the species. Think about what that means. Hello, it is Ryan. And we could all use an extra bright spot in our day, couldn't we? Just to make up for things like sitting in traffic, doing the dishes, counting your steps, you know, all the mundane stuff. That is why I'm such a big fan of Chumba Casino. Chumba Casino has all your favorite social casino style games that you can play for free, anytime, anywhere with daily bonuses. So sign up [e-mail] that's chumbacasino.com no purchase necessary VGW Group void we're prohibited by law 21 terms and conditions apply. Break into the records of property. Make bonfires of its papers. The fire may purify the infamous social organization. Enter its humble hearths and raise the legions of proletarians that the world may tremble before their awakened judges. Do not be stopped by altars nor by tombs. Fight, kill, die. That's the republic. So the conservatives are like, we don't want anything to do with this.

[Pete Quinones]

Do you know the fascists in 1936, all they did was overthrow a republic.

[Carl Dahl]

I know, exactly. So here's a really important thing to understand that happens at this point. So think about it. Unlike this is very unlike today. Unlike today, there aren't people, there aren't old people remembering fondly a republic and though. And the orderly nature of things. That is something that is very different. So the, the, the olds were always, they were either super libtards who had been like, you know, think of the old libtards that you know, who are seething with hatred. I'm not talking about the grandma in Iowa who's like nice and, and votes Democrat because that's what her family's always done. You know, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the seething gross old communists that you knew. I mean, I knew them. I had some teachers that were like that. The other like normal people were not like that at all. They were always opposed to this. So when their sons would say, you know, I really hate this system, I want to oppose it, they, they would be much more inclined to be like, I think it's a wonderful idea that you're joining the recite militia, my son. So, so what happened at this point is that the political, like the, the electoral political parties especially say that they start having a lot of their energy, go into these underground militias that they're associated with SEDA and they, they had a youth movement that was very radical. They used a lot of very aggressive language. The Carlists had their rakute which they started, like, really seriously arming and organizing at this point in time, although they don't really go fully ham with the weaponry until 1934 and then the Falange appear. So in August 1932, General Sanjurjo, which is a wonderful name to pronounce when you look at it and don't speak Spanish. The sun hor hada coup. I like it. He attempts kind of a quiet coup where the military is like. Some of the military goes in and says, and we're not cool with this. They get sentenced to death, and then it gets commuted to, like, life in prison. And then San Jorge just gets exiled and he goes to Portugal because the. The Republic is kind of like, we want to, like, neutralize this, and we don't want him to be able to do another coup, but we don't want to him and have, like, half the country rise up. So we're gonna. We're gonna moderate. Like, they were willing to moderate. They weren't that there. There were. They were still allowing, like, their street fighters, like, their. Their antifa troops to, like, go crazy in the streets, but they weren't gonna publicly do something that would radicalize the. Their opponents. They wanted to take their time. Time. So in 1934, remember I mentioned that, say the electoral victory, but I call it here Pyrrhic, because it's like it was the end of their party. They. They won, and then they were completely ignored. And. And maybe that's not like the most appropriate use of the term Pyrrhic, but I still feel like spiritually it is because they win this electoral victory, they get nothing. And then they're especially their youth movement and their future growth just ends because all those people who actually believed in it radicalized. And their youth movement in particular, starts going over to Jose Antonio Primo de Rivera and his Spanish Phalanx. And then the. With the uprisings among the historians and the general strikes across the country by the anarchists, those don't do very well. And that leads the anarchists to learn that they need to actually organize. They also begin to see themselves as somewhat as more at odds with the Republic. And they're like, let's not cooperate as much as we thought might be tactically sound early pre. Especially pre Republic, the Carlists, basically. And say. The both say, all right, it's time to put most of the money that we collect for dues and memberships and donations and everything into arming and training the recites and arranging a real. To prepare for a real military Coup. So the conservative electoral parties are basically, you have people hanging out in parliament, but at this point they're like. Like only violence is going to be the way forward. So that's where we need to focus. So in 1935, the Carlis and the Fange start training militarily in Italy. They start doing a lot more stuff that again, it's underground, but they're. They start taking a lot of risks, acquiring like thousands and thousands of weapons. The street violence goes parabolic, as I say here. There's way more street violence of leftists attacking right wingers. And the phalange start like assassinating people and stuff like that. So there's that February 1936 election that the libtards just blatantly steal. And then July 13, 1936, Dolores Ibarudi announces in the Cortez while Jose Calvo Sotelo is giving a speech. This is your last speech. Officials from the Republic's. My brain is blanking. Sorry. That basically their assault. Guards, excuse me. Go out. Arrest Jose Calvo Sotelo. They attempted to arrest a falungist who wasn't there. And then they also attempted to arrest another politician. Jose Salvo Calvo Sotello was at home. They take him for a ride. He basically tells his wife that he knows he's going to his death. They kill him. That is the thing that clinches the nationalist uprising.

[Pete Quinones]

So

[Carl Dahl]

this is a view of the three key right wing factions that are left over. So remember I was talking about those political organizations. The Fongay is small, but grows like crazy during the war. They kind of represent that fusion where they're trying to get people whose sympathies might be more left wing, that are more working class. They're popular with the urban middle class. On the other hand, in the middle are the Carlists. We'll look at them in detail here in a second. They're hardcore Catholic traditionalists, mostly rural, but of all classes. And then at the right there's the army. And this is the organizer of the coup that one of the chief planners, which is General Mola. Notice that it is not Francisco Franco. So again, let's talk about the Carlist recites a little bit. They are my favorite. They are the heirs to the Carlist uprisings of the 19th century, which mostly took place in the north and the east. That's Catalonia, that's Navarre, that's Basque country, that's Aragon. They're anti liberal, anti democratic Catholic traditionalists. They prefer those old class relations. Their terminology was the fueros. You had Duties and privileges. It's a lot like the Magna Carta. Read the Magna Carta. It is a totally different deal. It's a better deal in so many ways than gay shit like the Constitution. Their electoral representation was in the communion traditionista. But they never believed that this was their path to getting what they wanted. They always knew that it would be war. They're spread all over the country. Like I said, they're really focused kind of in the north and more and more rural areas. But they also were very important in Cordoba, Sevilla and Cadiz. And what they did is they were able to help the army and working with phalanges also secure these cities so that there were toeholds when the army came. We'll talk about that more later. Their preparation resulted in having a front line, 10,000 man, well armed, well trained citizen militia. By spring 1936 they had 20,000 auxiliaries, which meant that like July 1936, they had 30,000 men ready to go. They were at 85,000 recruits by the end of 1936. This uprising never would have happened if the Carlist recites did not organize their militia. If it was just the army, it would not have happened. Take that as you choose to organizing and training. In 1932 they, the Carlisle had had these like youth and social organizations that they named in various terms. I have an article about it on my sub stack, highly recommend it. But the Youth Auxiliary, using the old name for an old military unit. I have to revise an article because I found the real original origin of the term rakute, the Juventuda. They were organized community defense and street fighting against leftists. When they would have their religious marches, when they would have funerals for their people, when they would have church and they were getting. People were getting harassed, like you said, Pete, to not participate in church events. The juventudhynista were the ones killing people or beating them. They were flyering, they were postering, they were doing marches in uniforms, wearing masks. 1933, 1934, an army officer who had been a mustang, a very accomplished guy who was basically a spec ops dude. Jose Enrique Varela gets the alias Don Pepe, hence Pepe. There he was sneaking around in the north, organizing training and arming the recites into 10 man decuras. So that's a non military like local defense organization. Because again it's. They were thinking defensively at that point. Late 1934, they shift after the Estorian uprisings and all the violence to say we are going to become a military unit. We are going to be trained militarily. We're going to have military rank. We're going to think militarily. We're going to send people to Italy to learn to use automatic weapons and mortars and grenades, and not just rifles. They are heavily armed. By July 1936, the Spanish military's conspirators, the the coup planners describe the Recites as the only genuine citizen army that's capable of coordinated tactical military operations. Everyone else, their militant wings were street fighters and assassins. You still need street fighters and assassins. Lessons. So the Falange Espanola de la yons is that's Jose Antonio up there in the corner. It's really hard to talk about them because they went through so many iterations in, in a couple of years. They had so many writers, they incorporated other groups. A lot of them were way more radical. You'll notice I have anti clericalism strike through down there. One of the first things that they did is when Jose Antonio went to work with monarchists and other people is they said, you got to get rid of some of these guys or we're not going to work with you, we're not going to finance you anymore. So that was a constant struggle as a lot of their, like, modernist futurists people were anti Christian from that whole, like, it's exactly what you would expect these days where they're like, oh, Christians are weak and like, we need to, you know, whatever. They had to get rid of those people because of. Or at least those people had to shut up and it had to not be part of their core platform. So that took place. Their goal, though, was not to just be reactionaries. And they wanted to appeal to the. They wanted to appeal to the people that the left were appealing to. They wanted the communists and the anarchists to be in a nationalist pro family, pro future, non Bolshevist system. And that actually attracted the urban middle class, the people that were right wingers, that were voters who were radicalized by the republican leftist violence. People get bogged down in the details. You'll see people blogging about how Jose Antonio betrayed the. The revolution and all this stuff, but it's a bunch of crap. They were guys who wanted to find a spot and they became a fusion of a bunch of different things. And they had all kinds of people writing for them. And none of those visions were going to win out in Spain because Spain is Catholic. SEDA's youth wing, the Juventus des Action Popular, they funneled into the Falange in 1936 like crazy after the elections. So they were never very big. There were like maybe 10,000 of them in night up to 1935. They exploded in growth in 1936. They were outlawed in early 1936. Most of the leaders were rounded up and arrested. Most of them were martyred, like within a couple months. One of the really interesting things is that one of their kind of nerdier writers and theorists, Rafael Sanchez Amadas, the guy who wrote Kara al Facing the sun, their song, which is an absolute banger, he actually is one of the only members of the old shirts who survived the war through all kinds of luck and blessings from on high. So one of the more tricky groups to talk about because they were, let's be honest, they were incorporated and used for their optics and their ideas, but were not as influential as some nerds. Like, who cares? That's not the point. The point is that they survived and they saved their country. So, last faction to talk about Nationalist army. And again, this isn't the whole Nationalist Army. This is primarily officers of the army. Some people in the navy, of course, immediately start having informal, casual discussions about, hey, what, what if we had a coup? Like, what are the conditions of that? Who would be involved? So remember I pointed out in 1932 there was a, a coup. In the twenties there was a very successful coup that had Primodo Rivera in charge. So this is not like a new thing, like in Spanish speaking countries. Coups are not a shocking development. So the key thing in bold, right there in the middle is that General Francisco Franco, who was cooling his heels down in the Canary Islands, he did not join that conspiracy until after Jose Calvo Sothello was assassinated by the Republic's assault guards. He was also reassured of how many people were ready to roll all over the country. If the militias had not been organized, Franco almost certainly would not have joined the rising and it would have failed like the 1932 attempt. Very important. Franco does not show up as a savior. He becomes the natural leader several months into the war, because he's an elite, hardcore guy who trained an awful lot of the younger officers who were hardcore who are involved in the conspiracy. People trusted him and he was a incredibly shrewd guy. He was not elected. He was not chosen in advance. There wasn't an uprising under Franco. There was a general uprising under people's individual factions.

[Pete Quinones]

Well, and let's, let's face, let's face the fact that he is the archetype Spanish Catholic.

[Carl Dahl]

Yes, yes.

[Pete Quinones]

I mean, there's reports that he would go to mass Every day. He would take the Eucharist every day.

[Carl Dahl]

Intensely devout. And I did not mean to stop sharing.

[Pete Quinones]

Go right ahead and share it again. I'll get it up there.

[Carl Dahl]

My bad. So, yeah, devout, devout Catholic. So here we go.

[Pete Quinones]

Also, he had the. He was well known in the army. He was. He had the respect of many.

[Carl Dahl]

Many.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. So it's. It was going to come down to him. It was going to come down to him. I don't think there was. I don't think there was anybody else, and I think anybody else who would have been chosen, we would have seen a different outcome.

[Carl Dahl]

Yes, I agree completely. I agree completely. So we have all these factions. What happens in war? What's one of the. What is the important thing that people always talk about in. Who are military veterans? Well, their shoot, move, communicate. With communicate being very, very, very, very important. But then there's also an old term or old saying, if you don't have logistics, you don't have nothing. And so these various factions who rise up that are part of this general conspiracy, logistics are a challenge. You can capture weapons, but the army has control of all of the logistics. So the militias plug into the army logistical chain. The, the Carlists had a slight advantage in some ways because they were associated, or many of them were associated with the Navarre Brigade up in the north under Mola. So they're plugged into that military chain of command through that channel in the army of the north. But it's a little chaotic. They all have their own officers and, and things like that. And that is a challenge in and of itself. But the. What happened was, you know, shrewd. Old General Franco basically says, here's what we're gonna do. All of these various parties, all of these various groups are, you know, plugged in. They're now consolidated down to where you're in the army already. You couldn't like, join the Army January 1936 and go to boot camp. Like, it took them a while to, one, have control over military bases on the peninsula, but you could join the militias immediately like that and good luck, you know, learn on the job. Right. So what. What Franco and the state did was they said, well, we have two political parties that are part of this fighting force and they're already plugged into the military logistical system and we're going to unify them under our command. What we'll do is we'll make allowances for their symbols and, you know, so that their. Their flags and some of their ranked stuff. Although what they did is they incorporated elements of both into the army. But like the Carlos could keep their berets, they could keep their flags, you know, the Falange could keep their blue shirts. And then we'll make sure that you have, you know, your 7 millimeter Spanish Mauser rifles instead of a hodgepodge of stuff that you acquired before the war. And you know, we'll plug you into this whole system. Another thing I like to point out is that the Nationalists had American trucks and fuel and tires from American companies on credit and the British had signed off on this huge advantage. And you don't get that if you're in the militia, you know, on your own and not plugged into the army. So because the state spoke for Spain and the Carlists or the Falange were not the state. So April 19th, interesting date. 1937. One party, one army, one state. So there's one official political party left and it is the Falange Espanola Tradicionalista y de las Juntas de Offensiva Nacional Syndicalista. So that is a mouthful. But what that does is it combines the following day and the Carlists into the one political party. The head of it was Franco. You know, he had people in the state, he had people in the junta who were from both parties. These units still fought under the command of their own officers. They generally maintained their pre existing like organizational structure, but they were always under the primary leaders of the army and under the authority of the army from this point in time. So why, how did the consolidation work? And like I said, post war struggles are excluded from this commentary. Ideology is excluded. The time for politics, talk with the enemies and petty differences between factions was completely over. And everyone believed that. They believed that it was time for war. They joined the units that they could join if they wanted to fight, or if they felt they had to fight, fight. The most extreme parties established large, well organized and relatively well equipped parallel institutions. So they could not count on the institutions of the Republic. So they created their own. They had their own political and local organizational groups and they created militias to defend themselves and to prepare to fight. The future belongs to those who show up. The other rightist faction, which is the Nationalist officers, they were either already associated with one of those factions like the say that went away. So you were either Falange or, you know, part of the, the Carlists or you didn't care. You're like, I'm part of the state, I'm part of this operation. This is a non political thing, so who cares? I feel like that is going to be one of those things that's going to catch people by surprise. And when you look at the debates that take place now in our space, that's one of the hardest things for people to settle on is they want to hold on to their old beliefs. And a lot of those are legitimate. I'm not going to tell anyone to vote or not to vote. I'm not going to tell anyone who to support or not to support. But my general thinking is like the time for like differences are over and if you're essentially allied, allied with one another, like why not just become

[Pete Quinones]

a

[Carl Dahl]

one bundle of sticks with an axe head sticking out of the top of it, right?

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, yeah. You know, you know, people are. Are.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah, exactly. But you know, when bullets start flying, you know, the talking stops. So anyway, couple of quick slides here and I'm not going to spend a ton of time talking about like the political and you know, tactical and strategic system here. But I'm showing this because I want to show you the territory that was held primarily by the militias, everyone's militias, including the leftists Kariz and Sevilla especially and Cordoba. Yeah, army barracks were important but the militias the following day and the Carlist militias helped secure these areas. All that swath of territory up in the north. That is because of the militias, citizen militias. Another element to this is that the military uprising, the success of the military uprising in specific units and barracks often came up to the like individual courage of an individual officer who would walk in and basically say you're under arrest to you know, or he'd say you're joining us or you're under arrest. That is ballsy. And that's how that happened. Way less official you know, involvement in, in claiming the land and the land that's being controlled here. So very important thing to understand. The rising is most successful in the conservative parts of Spain and a couple military strongholds and often squashed in street fighting by leftist militias as in Barcelona. Santander. Hey guys, it's Ryan. I want to tell you about my new pastime, Chumba Casino. Chumba Casino has been around for over a decade delivering the most fun you can have online play social casino style games for free, anytime, anywhere. So sign [e-mail] no purchase necessary bGW group by law see terms and conditions 21/ Toledo and Madrid. Toledo with a big asterisk except for the Alcazar, the heroic Alcazar. And so with those holdings this is March 1937. But an awful lot of this was like by. More like October, November of 1936 because of the land held by the militias or by these individual garrisons or whatever. Especially the containment around Madrid by the Carlist militias, largely the army of Africa and the, you know, the Spanish Legion coming across the medicine was able to expand these territorial holdings again because of the militias. Another key thing is that the Republicans had quote unquote secured military support from the Soviet Union. The Soviets had huge shipments of weapons going to Spain within days. And the. The International volunteers under the International Brigades that was arranged by the Soviet International which meant that those were communists. The vast majority of them were Communists. Something like 40% Jewish. Just as a note up to. I should say there's in my appendix of my book and then I have a note an article with the source material. There's a very interesting article in there about the legwork a Jewish communist did improving how important the. That Jews were to the International Brigades. At the very least it was like the majority of their officers were Jewish. Big surprise.

[Pete Quinones]

Almost all of the. There was 3,000 volunteers from the United States and almost to a man and woman they were all. Yes.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah. In my book one of the first things is they. In the first chapter they. They take out a. A couple positions of International Brigades and. And our guy who's an intelligence officer is going through all their documents and it's like little David from Brooklyn and stuff like that. It's.

[Pete Quinones]

It's.

[Carl Dahl]

It is what it is man. It's. I. If someone writes this down, I believe it. So yeah. All right. So very brief notes on a successful leftist organization which is the CNT fai. And I am sharing this because it's educational. There's an article about it on my sub stack. I got this material from by reading a. First I read it in Spanish and then I found an English translation. Anarchist sites have. They're one of the anarchist websites are a key source of really good information especially about the. The real anarchist stuff what was actually going on in Catalonia. They have translations of all of these books written by these anarchist leaders who ran away after the war talking about what they were actually doing and a lot of their organization but Spanish other Spanish folks have helped crack the code. Like some weapons collectors cracked the code on where the FI bomb, the grenade that the FAI created, where that came from through a untranslated memoir of a Spanish slash Argentinian anarchist who was involved. I think we talked about him a little bit last time. But there's all kinds of material that's. That's coming to Light, when you read the libtard summary of this stuff, they always leave out what the true believers will tell you completely openly. So I completely advocate reading communist and anarchist material on any subject touching on them because they will just tell you what their goals were. Whereas if you read a summary, you read a, you know, a academic analysis of something, they will not do that. So the FAI was the militant wing of the cnt. The CNT was an anarchist labor union slash political party. I mean, they're anarchists, obviously. You know, you're going to have a labor union that people join because they kind of feel like they have to, or you know, social pressure or whatever. But then the true believers are ripe for joining, you know, more militant organizations who actually want to see anarchism, you know, in, in their lifetime. And after the 1934 Astorian uprising and when the, the Spanish Republic cracked down on that uprising, because you have to, when people are just being murdered in the streets, like aggressively, the, the FAI organized and they said, you know what? And I don't have the quote handy, there's a quote in this article, but it's basically the same thing that an anarchist antifa guy told me in a. I will not be specific about what city it was in, in a, in a thing they were doing in a city when I happened to be working downtown and kind of naive and considering myself a libertarian with theoretical anarchist leanings, that if they start smashing windows and then the cops attack peaceful protesters, that the people will rise up and overthrow the government just like spontaneously. And the FAI said, you know what? You can't spontaneously be competent. It's like anything else, you rise to the level of training that you have so you don't rise to the occasion, right, and be good. So anyway, so what they did is they created a cellular structure because they were illegal and outlawed and for their own protection they operated in cells. And the idea was that they would have a six man team, a six man cell founded by and led by, not really led, but organized and coordinated by the secretary. So the secretary works with other people in the hierarchy, he organizes the cadre, he communicates and coordinates their training and their operations and the intelligence that they gather. And the secretaries try to create as many cadres as they can eventually once they're up to the task, and then they also have a person. And again, this is just a group of people who decide they want to be part of an organization and to do something. So like maybe lawfully, legally, let's say you have a community watch, you know, in Your in your neighborhood. Just think about how this might be helpful for. So you can call the police about stuff. And then you have a person who's, what they call the police, the people investigator. And so he identifies and documents basically enemies and what you can find out about them. So the people in their assigned precinct, names, addresses, ideological affiliations, personal habits, details, their danger level. This would apply to military police, clergy, officials, capitalists, politicians, you know, etc. And then there's a person who's a building investigator. And so their job is to go check out and learn about buildings that are in their zone. And that's for tactical purposes. That's for while the people investigator determines that someone lives in this building, the building investigator will go check the building out because maybe the people investigator will have been seen following the guy or whatever, right? So what they then do is they write up like who lives there, what stuff is in there, where's the military barracks, where's a police station, where jails, where churches and monasteries, where, you know, employers, where's fortifications, things of that nature. And then they have a team member who gets trained in identifying and developing basically strategic areas in the zone and how you would fight there if you had to. Bridges, street intersections, underground passages, drained sewers, what, which of these houses have flat roofs, according to the building investigator. How do you get from place to place to place without being, you know, on the street, etc. And then you have a team member who checks out public works like electricity, water, where garages, you know, where's tram depots, where's the metro? Like check out the metro transport routes, vulnerability to sabotage or seizure. And then finally you have a team member whose main job is money, weapons and equipment, stealing it, buying it, trading for it, private homes with weapons, banks, loan offices, food and clothing, warehouses, et cetera. And again, this is from the point of view of anarchists in Spain in the 1930s, but at the same time it's interesting. So the idea is these people get together and they train. They get trained by other people in the organization who are specialists in these areas, who will they, they will never interact with again in person, because that's a security, you know, risk. And then they get together with their group to train in hand to hand combat, group tactics, weapons, propaganda, learning about special equipment, learning medicine. When they start out, they learn about the basic strategies and priorities for how they do their jobs and how they work together. And then moving forward, they share the information that they discover. Sometimes they'll work together on certain jobs and then they collect all that intelligence, they send it up the chain. You don't leave it lying around, you know, written in maps. You have to stash all that stuff. And their. Their job is to gather that intelligence to help grow the organization with people who are reliable that they can recommend to the secretary who will then arrange it for that for everyone, and then they won't be a part of it so that there's less security risk there. And then their real job is that when something kicks off, they control their assigned district in the uprising. And that is how they secured Barcelona, that is how they secured Valencia. That's how they secured so many areas, is that they had trained and planned in advance. The Carlists who are in those hardcore, heavily trained units did essentially the same thing, but there was less of. We don't have documented evidence of exactly how they thought about it. But yes, they secured their immediate areas first. They dealt with anarchists and communists in their immediate areas first in the same fashion. And I guarantee you, especially if you live in a heavily leftist area, there are people thinking this way right now, especially if you're in an unfortunate situation and you have like a bunch of antifa around you because you're near a college or something like that. So. So be aware of that. That completes my TED Talk.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, the. I love that you ended on this because it really goes to show that there, there were people on the left who were. Who were planning, who were. Who were organized. It's. And because most of the anarchists were. I mean, you could see it through the books you read.

[Carl Dahl]

Yep.

[Pete Quinones]

I mean, they're anarchists. They called. I mean, I mean, they really lean into that, didn't they?

[Carl Dahl]

They very much did, yes.

[Pete Quinones]

It's like, okay, well, it's like. And it's like Lober. It's like so Lalbert. Where it's like, okay, can't you guys just realize what you. What's going on here? You have to organize. You have to. Have to. If, if we do this, we can have, you know, we can have this. But no, no, they have to. They have to hold to their principles. And thank God they did.

[Carl Dahl]

Yes, exactly, because they were extreme. Like I said, they were extremely successful because this was a compromise that they made in the uprising. And then the next compromise that was made is that like the Darudy column who were the, the. They came up out of this FAI group. They were the hardened killers. They were the, the shock troops who went up to Aragon to, To confront the Carlist recites because up by like Zaragoza and stuff where there Were there were a fair amount of anarchist CNT and CNTFAI guys up in some of these like slightly industrial areas and some of these larger cities and Aragon in the, in the interior. And they were rushing up there because the, the car lists were cracking down and taking out because they knew who everybody was, right? So they, the Daruti column were the first group of the anarchists to say, and their terminology is always interesting is that they would say we have to put the revolution on hold. And that was their thinking, is that you think that the fighting would be the revolution. To them the revolution was going around and murdering the like regular people and destroying the churches and like restructuring the way, you know, work happens and stuff like that. To them that was the revolution. But they how to have fun anytime anywhere. STEP 1 Go to chumbacasino.com chumbacasino.com Got it. STEP 2 Collect your welcome bonus. Come to papa. Welcome bonus. Step 3 Play hundreds of casino style games for free. That's a lot of games all for free. Step 4 Unleash your excitement. Ch ch ch. Chumba. Chumba Casino has been delivering thrills for over a decade. Decade.

[Pete Quinones]

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[Carl Dahl]

Visit chumbacasino.com no purchase necessary vgw group void we're prohibited by law 21 terms and conditions apply. Put the revolution on hold to fight the war. And they allied with the communists and ultimately came under the, the leadership of the communists. They, most of them. So Daruti actually got. Got killed in the defense of Madrid in 1936 because they, they went up to Oregon, that front stabilized and after like two months when the army of Africa and the legion, you know, Franco were, were headed that way, they made a mad dash to get to Madrid to defend it. And Daruti got killed. They have these conspiracies about it, but the long and the short is he said we're gonna work with the communists until the war is over. And what did the communists do is they killed the hardcore political, the best leaders from among the anarchists so that they could consolidate their own control over, over the republic. So though,

[Pete Quinones]

wow, what a shock learn that. Yeah. They couldn't have Learned that from 1917, right?

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah, that's exactly what they did. That's exactly what they did. And these quote unquote people, you can't ally with someone who wants to kill you. And that's the difference. The right wingers, they had had ideas that were different, but they didn't hate each other. And this is something you have talked about a lot, which I think is probably like one of the most important points that you have made is, okay, you don't have to agree with someone in power about everything, but if they don't hate you, they're much better than someone who hates you. And so to, to not look at the landscape and say, here's my choices and if I go with group A, I have a chance to have a say. And in fact, as things radicalize, as everybody gets, as everything gets crazier, I'm going to seem pretty reasonable to people who right now, like, they, they certainly wouldn't agree with me on these things, but they don't hate me. Fundamentally, you have options there. You don't have options with people who want to destroy you, who want to torture you, who want you to suffer, who want you to be humiliated. You cannot negotiate with those people and you can't work with them. Them. And there's nothing that you get like, you don't get like, Hitler doesn't come back if you support the, the guy who blows horses or whatever his name is. I can't think of his name. He's gonna be gone in a couple weeks anyway. I can't. I mean, I don't know that they might just be throwing in the towel on this one, but like, this is going to be hilarious when they go to Chicago.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, it's wild. You know, Charles Haywood said something the other night on, he was on with Buck Johnson. He was on Buck Johnson's show and Buck was talking to him about the PayPal mafia and everything. Stuff that I've been talking about.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah.

[Pete Quinones]

You know, and I've said, and I've said, you know, they're not our guys and you know, but they, they don't hate us. And I, I really like a lot, a lot of what Heywood says. I've met him. He's a good, I think he's a good man. He said if they are serious about defeating this enemy that they want to take on. Yeah. They're gonna have to, they're gonna have to become our guys.

[Carl Dahl]

Yes. Yes.

[Pete Quinones]

If they don't become our guys, they're gonna lose. Yes. And then what? And then what does that mean about me, you know, saying that, hey, maybe we should look at these guys and maybe we shouldn't counter signal them. I'll just say I was wrong. I was wrong. Yeah, they, you know, they tried. They didn't know what they were in for. I was wrong. I still told you to build locally. I still told you to, you know, make your income mobile. I still told you to plant a garden. I never told you that they were coming to save us. Yeah, but if they are, if they want to defeat the enemy that, that they're talking about defeating, they're going to have to become argos, if you want.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah. You have to go to war with the army. You have to defeat an enemy.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. So, you know, someone said a long time ago, may you live in interesting times. And we unfortunately certainly do. But we know it comes after interesting times.

[Carl Dahl]

Yes.

[Pete Quinones]

Let's cut this. And you're to come back soon and we'll talk about something new. But remind people where they can find everything, including. I had somebody on Facebook who was asking for your merch the other day. So if you had any merch sales, it may have been coming from Facebook and me sharing your links.

[Carl Dahl]

Cool. Yeah. So, yeah. Carldahl.substack.com is where you can see most of my writing. I have a sample. The first chapter of my newest book, Faction with Crusaders. I'm gonna to. To appease my. My friends in the firearms autist community. I'm gonna do an article pretty soon about the books. Excuse me, the Guns of my. The Weapons of my first book Faction. And I think I. I owe Twitter a thread on that. My. My old social media manager got. Got his account banned in January of 2021 for some reason. So I have to put a fresh thing up there now that I myself am in control of my own account. Yeah, books are on Amazon, but I also have links to those extensively from all those articles and everything in my substack and then also to my merch, my. My spicy shirts and stuff like that. Main thing is I. The only way that this is really monetized for me is through book sales and the shirts and stuff. I was thinking of monetizing my substack. I've had like six or seven people offer to pay for that and I'm like, just, just buy book, give book to friend. Things like that. That's my. My main thing. Maybe I should expand it, but that's. That's how I'm doing it. And, and thanks again.

[Pete Quinones]

I'll include all the links like I did last time. Thanks a lot, Carl. Appreciate it.

[Carl Dahl]

Thanks, Pete.

[Pete Quinones]

I want to welcome everyone back to the Pete Quinones Show. Carl Dahl's back. We're going to keep talking about the Spanish Civil War. How you doing, Carl?

[Carl Dahl]

Doing well. Thanks, Pete.

[Pete Quinones]

All right, so I thought we should follow up the last episode we did, which was much talked about how the right wing factions came together, but maybe a little less serious this time. And like, something that I really enjoyed talking about. So I reached out to you and said, hey, I know that you're obsessed with the guns of the Spanish Civil War, so why don't we talk. Why don't we talk about them? So, yeah, when you, when you started going down the Spanish Civil War route, were you. Had you already looked into the guns or was this just stuff you picked up as you went along?

[Carl Dahl]

I'd looked into it a fair bit. I'm an old. And so in the 90s, there were Astra 400s all over the place. And, you know, Spanish firearms were very affordable well into the 90s. And then all the companies folded, all the, I should say all the commercial manufacturers that were exporting to the US which were generally high quality, although there was some, you know, cheap, you know, minimum, minimal quality required stuff as well. And so I was always interested in guns and small arms. And so I was well aware of that without having, you know, really gotten into the meat and potatoes of the war and, you know, other stuff would percolate up. So a lot of it comes through in the work that I've done and that I've published, but I also enjoy writing little articles and threads on, on the topic as well. So, yeah, I put my, you know, thinking cap on and said, let's focus as much as we can on small arms of the, the Spanish Civil War and really talking about, you know, really focusing on the Spanish, like domestic weapons, but also the fact that, like, how the militias got weapons and then the, the post July 1936 arm packages of the left. So the stuff that came from the Soviet Union and France and then their commercial. Commercial areas mostly focusing like almost entirely on individual weapons, but I did throw on some notes about some game changers, so Cool.

[Pete Quinones]

All right, you have something on the screen you want me to share or

[Carl Dahl]

what do you want to read? It's ready to go.

[Pete Quinones]

Boom. There you go. Boom.

[Carl Dahl]

Thank you, sir. So just reiterating Karl Dahl substack to book by book, middle one. I had some people notice and say, hey, is that Owen Broadcast? And yes, Owen Broadcast did do that. The COVID of my first novel, Faction. And then Bradley Burris is a very talented painter who did the portrait of the main character on the right hand side looking war weary by the time he's with the Spanish Legion in faction with the Crusaders. So I'm gonna kind of take this from a couple angles. First of all, this is an overview of the basic presentation. So the weaponry of the Spanish Civil War falls into a couple of buckets and those buckets are Spanish military or national law enforcement arms, militia acquisitions and then post July 1936 arms packages. And again, like I said, we'll focus on what came in via the Soviet Union in France and which includes kind of like commercial transfers from arms dealers. I'm kind of light on text in this one and I'm going to be referring to some notes off screen because if we tried to cover everything, it would be just exhausting. So in the background is a beautiful Astra 900 broom handle copy made to an extremely high standard of finish. So we'll be able to talk a little more about that weapon. There weren't tons in the war, but there were, there were thousands of them utilized, but it wasn't like a primary issue weapon. We'll, we'll get into some of the details on that here shortly. So, so I'm going to start out with a very, very, very simple high level overview of the Spanish domestic arms industry, specifically excluding military arsenals here. We'll talk about the military issue weapons later and the government also, you know, including law enforcement weapons as well. But we're really going to dive into like the Basque country arms manufacturers because they were a huge player in this war and then the artisanal weapons. So again, this is fairly high level. There's a ton of information online on this stuff, but it's dispersed. I talk a lot about it in faction with the crusaders as part of the narrative, the way that it flows nicely. But there's some good material. I'll put some. I'll do a thread today with, with some links to, to interesting information. So the. Sorry I said.

[Pete Quinones]

Cool.

[Carl Dahl]

Okay, cool. So the Spanish arms industry is very interesting. This is a photograph from Besiigui Hermanos, which was a manufacturer and I bar and if you look closely you'll see that these all look like broom handle Mausers. So the Spanish arms industry has been around for a very long time, especially up in the Basque country, centered in Ibar and Guernica for many centuries. They were largely export focused. Of course there's a domestic industry, you know, arming people locally. The, the Carlists got a lot of their arms through like sneaky diversions of weapons coming out of these factories for a long time and right before the Spanish Civil War, but largely export focused. So it's really common for late 19th century, especially in the United States. There's some older stuff. Most of it went to Europe. Europe and over in like Asia and Central America. But in America and Canada and the uk you will find a lot of Spanish copies of different weapons. And a lot of times they were made on contract for say the British government or the French government. There's also just straight commercial stuff. And so the idea is all this kind of like a cottage industry model where a whole bunch of different suppliers and manufacturers all over Basque country, but mostly concentrated in these river valleys where they had a lot of power and steel was coming out of the mines or it was being brought over from the northwest of Spain, like Asturias, over into Basque country for manufacturing. And so huge industry for a really long time. I'll throw out some names. Yama and Star Astra. Those are separate. One company named Star One called Astra. I know, go figure. Astra means star in Spanish. But anyway,

[Pete Quinones]

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[Carl Dahl]

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[Pete Quinones]

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[Carl Dahl]

Next time you're stuck in the slow lane, speed up with Chumba play [e-mail] let's Chumba. Sponsored by Chumba Casino NO PURCHASE AS NECESSARY VGW GROUP VOID where prohibited by law 21 terms and conditions apply. And lots of little family companies that would just be building weapons, copying weapons, doing some original design, some of it very innovative and just putting them out there. And generally their commercial stuff would be available for offer for less than, you know, the commonly manufactured stuff, stuff from like say FN or you know, American manufacturers or what have you. So that was their niche. They would also make whatever was popular and they would be able to turn it around really quickly. We'll get into some examples of that here shortly. But one of the really kind of big influences on the relevance of the Basque country manufacturers in Spain as it came to arms was a deal that went down in 1950 between the French government and an ibar arms company, Gabilondo y Uresti, which became Llama or llama to produce a 32 ACP pistol for trench warfare. So there's an image of it behind here and you'll notice that proportionally it, it looks more like something that you're starting to see now with, with modern weapons where you'll have a full size grip and a slightly shorter muzzle for concealed carry purposes or just ease of carry while giving a full grip. Right. So a lot of times these 32 automatics will, you know, you'll have two fingers on it and your pinky will be kind of hanging off and you'll have a, a little pinky extension on a magazine or something like that. These, these guys, these brothers and friends who only employed a couple dozen people at the time, made this design that the French government who were desperately needing handguns for, for World War I because entrenched warfare, the old model, where, you know, you would have your, your armies and, and officers and maybe NCOs would have handguns. And it was mostly a symbol of rank and authority as well as to enforce discipline. Right. The handgun was as much for using it on your own troops or like putting down horses and stuff as it was for actual combat. So they really needed everything that they could get their hands on for, for World War I. And so the French began ordering in mass numbers. So the, the first deal with Gabalando Y Uresti was 10,000 pistols a month, and then it became 20,000 and then it became 50,000. And so they kind of, of threw their hands up and came back with an amendment to this deal and said, as long as we are doing quality control and you know, our plan is to meet this, is to farm out the manufacture of these weapons to subcontractors. Okay? So they started out, you know, with this acceptance with like five subcontractors, and then it eventually became dozens. Because what happened was these individual subcontractors would sub out like, you know, trigger action components, you know, while they focused on the slide in the frame, or they would have different people doing the barrels, or they would do the barrels and then do the rest. So it became dozens and dozens and dozens of variants of these weapons. These were all in the days of hand fitted weapons. And one of the problems with that is that a pistol might be perfectly reliable with its issue magazine or at least the magazine that was made for it. But once it gets into the military system, you have all these different pieces. And one of the old issues with reliability of semi automatic handguns as well as semi automatics in general, was the magazine, right? Like the number one thing that you'll find with older guns is that the gun might be great, but like, you have issues with magazines and like aftermarket magazines don't really work or you have to hand fit every magazine, you adjust the feed lips, all this stuff to get it to be completely reliable. So that's where some of the reputation issues came with these pistols. And then there were also some things like problems with the steel, you Know, specifically around the metallurgy, they wouldn't be hardened properly. They were using cheap materials because they're just like, hey, these are all going overseas and we get paid the same, so let's see what we can get away with. So anyway, they eventually, you know, through this system, over 750,000 of these were made specifically to this ruby format and shipped to France. Some of them went to Finland too, and I think the Russian. The Russians got some as well. And at this point, Spain is like flooded with not only 32 ACP handguns, 765 millimeter, but also people who can make these. So when the war ends, you know, this boom kind of comes to an end, and then all these manufacturers are like, what are we gonna do? We have all these now highly skilled and, you know, makers and then, you know, these factories. So like, let's look at this picture again. That's a lot of guys. They're making stuff to a very high standard. They have all this equipment for making stocks and doing barrels and all the sub components and all that. They need jobs. They need a market, right? The market will find a way. So China, China is in its warlord era in the 1920s, right? So I'm not gonna do charts and graphs of the whole story behind this, but China is entering this period of, you know, struggle where, between the. Their nationalists and all the kind of countryside, little warlords and, And a lot of it is, it's not only regional, but it's kind of ethnic. If you really know anything about China, they'll have this big bucket where they call everyone hyp. But when you drink. Excuse me, when you speak different languages, when you're scattered all over this vast country, you come from different kind of ethnic stuff because of history. And you have these supposed ethnic minorities, but it's like literally, you know, 30 million people. They're sub nations, right? They're all kind of vying for autonomy. You know, there's. There's that whole autonomy discussion again, Pete, as well as just kind of control over their areas and, you know, really their, their futures. So this is a huge market for the Spanish arms manufacturers as well as, you know, the rest of the world, right? So in this picture, you'll see in the bottom left, you'll see these guys, they have these pouches that are for Mauser broom handles, for stripper clips or magazines. At this point it's going to be stripper clips. You'll see almost all these guys have a Mauser broom handle in its wooden holster on their, on their belt. And then down here, this is really interesting. You'll notice these light machine guns, these are Swiss light machine guns that were very, very advanced for the time. They, they make the, the bar, you know, the American bar light machine gun or automatic rifle rather look kind of simple and not, not super robust. So the industry of the world is cranking out advanced weapons in this lull after World War I where you know, some European countries are starting to arm up and European countries are starting to think in terms of having like next generation weapons after World War I. And basically China and its insatiable appetite for advanced weapons are giving them a huge market as well as, you know, an area to, to try all these out and see, see what works. You'll also notice here on the right hand side, this is actually from World War II, but you'll see all these Chinese fellows with broom handle Mausers. Some of them are semi auto, some of them are machine pistols. We don't really have a way of knowing but looking at their gear and the pouches, those appear to be removable magazines of 20 rounds plus some other stuff they can top off their one or two magazines they have with stripper clips through the stripper clip guide in the bolt, you know, on top of the weapon they're guarding these Japanese fellows who have surrendered. And at this point, so that's decades of familiarity with the, the broom handle pistols and machine pistols. Up here you'll see an Astra with Chinese markings on it on a machine pistol copy of the broom handle that was, that was made in Spain. So the Spanish are sending. Because here's, here's the key thing to keep in mind. You're seeing a lot of advanced weapons down here. Japan is controlling access to the Chinese market and so they're trying to keep you know, on paper military weapons away from the country. But there's a loophole and this, this was also something that Germany exploited. Germany was restricted due to the Versailles Treaty to certain like sizes of weapons and types of weapons, which is where you get the Bolo Mauser, the broom handle with the slightly shortened grip and barrel that was extremely popular with the Russians and communists in general as well as in China etc because it would, it was compliant with the Treaty of Versailles but still a very capable weapon. And then not in you know, 9 millimeter because of caliber restrictions. It was 762 by 25 Mauser or maybe a 763. Excuse me. And anyway, so the same thing is happening in China. The Japanese are not letting or restricting, you know, arms of Specific types, automatic rifles, heavy machine guns, bolt action rifles, etc to restrict them to only certain government organs. But handguns are okay. So there's tons of 32 caliber handguns flooding from the Spanish factories into China. And also these broom handles. Astra and some other folks went out because China's consuming all these weapons. They went on a trade mission and saw that the broom handle Mausers were incredibly popular there because it was a light carbine, semi automatic, light carbing pretty good, out to like 150 yards or so. And they were just gobbling them up. So the, the copies began fast and furious. And almost immediately, within like a year, Astra had developed a copy. And then other people in the Ibar area we're copying them.

[Pete Quinones]

So 32 ACP out to 150 yards.

[Carl Dahl]

32 ACP as a handgun. 763aMauser in the broom handle out to 150 yards. And they often had very, very confident sight markings on these things, you know, going out to like 500 yards. So it's like you have a wood stock on a pistol with like a seven inch barrel, but it's a pretty hot cartridge. 763 Mauser. Right. It's like the Tokarev cartridge, pretty good submachine gun cartridge out to I'd say 150 to 200. You can do it. It starts losing energy and stuff at that point. But short range, it's incredible. Great for street fighting and stuff.

[Pete Quinones]

Cool. Keep going.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah. All right. So Soma Tenes y Cindicalistas so the, the Basque arms manufacturers start doing their own thing and copying different designs and trying to, again, still trying to find markets because you have all these people that are really skilled and they're like, we have a domestic industry, although there's you know, gun control or regulations for access in Spain. A lot of stuff going to China. But they're also trying to capture contracts in Spain and then, you know, in Europe, elsewhere, etc. And so all these 32 automatics become really popular with the syndicalistas, the kind of the, the communist and anarchist extremists who are assassinating people in Spain. And that results under the, the 1920s dictatorship of General Primo de Rivera of some harsher restrictions on access. So all the way here on the right hand side there's an advertisement for Soma tennis. And you might remember this, the Soma 10 was a, essentially a citizen militia that was under the control or guidance of the, the dictatorship of Primo de Rivera, the, the military dictatorship and the Military government that allowed citizens who were, you know, vetted and like politically reliable, usually people who are, you know, established parts of their communities to own certain kinds of firearms. Bolt action rifles, shotguns, you know, handguns. And so this is an ad for an Astra Model 400 pistol. And this ad is from the 1920s, appealing to the Soma 10 militiamen in one of their own, you know, magazines or newspapers and talking about how, hey, in 1921 and 1922 and 1923, the, you know, the army, the carbonary, the prison corps, the civil guard and the navy adopted this pistol. Pistol, or accepted it, right, As a, as one of the weapons that you can own. Because a lot of times the officers would have an approved weapons that they would acquire privately as kind of a traditional European thing. So anyway, so they were advertising this specific 9 millimeter Largo pistol. We'll look at it a little more detail soon commercially again to this kind of restricted population.

[Pete Quinones]

I saw one at a gun show recently.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah, they're. They're great actually.

[Pete Quinones]

He had the old boxes. He had the, he had the old boxes to the ones that are stamped on the bottom.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah, that's really cool. There's a lot of these in the United States. And like I was saying before, a lot of them came in the 80s and 90s, they were really cheap at the time. A lot of times there, there wasn't the, the ammunition wasn't that common. 9 millimeter largo, it's 9 by 23, but it's like a, it's not like a 9 by 23 Winchester, which is pretty hot. It's like. Which is. It's like a.38 Super, a rimless.38 Super. It's not that pressure. It's like the old.38 ACP lower pressure. And so people thought they were unreliable because they didn't have the correct cartridges for it. It. They would try to shoot 9 by 19 in it, which is a little too hot and it's short, you know, it wasn't calibrated for the, the right springs, spring tension. There was a 9 by 19 parabellum version made for the. The Germans and the Bulgarians during World War II. They sold a lot of those. That's the Model 600. Perfectly reliable pistols. Straight blow back, really, really heavy spring. And they have a really low bore axis, so they shoot really nicely. Again, if you have the right cartridges for it, you could get conversion barrels for a 9 millimeter Luger. Feeds out of the same magazines just fine, although the, the German ones had A spacer. And I should say that the 9 millimeter Luger proper ones had a spacer in the magazine just for, for optimal feeding. But really nice pistols made to a very high standard. Kind of weird ergonomically, but there's some really neat ergonomics as well. Like the grip angle is great. So the middle commercial reflects

[Pete Quinones]

a.

[Carl Dahl]

Under the Spanish Republic. It makes reference to the second decree of 13 July 1934, which restricted people from being able to buy pistols of any kind, of any caliber under the Republic because things were getting out of control. So it's a little more modern star pistol. It has a barrel length restriction, it has to be a little longer. You see this in the like Canada and Europe a lot. And the specific, it's the specific information about the, the arms restriction is that you have to have authority, you know, for, for self defense weapons issued by a competent authority. So like a chauffeur for people in government can have a pistol city like municipal agents.

[Pete Quinones]

This sounds like New York. Like New York City.

[Carl Dahl]

Exactly, exactly. Guards and people transporting prisoners and stuff, commercial guards. So like, or like guarding a store or a bank or industry. So it's restricted to individuals who go through, you know, screening or these individuals are screened. And then like a company can have a certain amount of pistols, you know, that only certain people have access to. So there's still this kind of industry for these, these weapons in here, but it's like more restricted. But what's important is that while a lot of this is for overseas use, the factories are still there. So that'll come into play during the war.

[Pete Quinones]

All right.

[Carl Dahl]

And then the other category of the weapons in the small arms in the Spanish Civil War are artisanal weapons. And artisanal means in Spanish and French use, the same as the way we use it, which is boutique, small batch, locally source, handcrafted items made by highly skilled artisans with love. And so these are some. A great example of like a very sophisticated version of this is in this picture here. This is where you get grenades and stuff. So when you read about the extremist attacks in the teens and the twenties and the thirties in Spain with grenades, they're making these themselves. And a lot of them are literally just like a tin. Yeah, a tin can filled with explosives and maybe some nails in it with like a wick that you light. But some of them are very sophisticated. This is the Phi bomb. We talk about this a little bit. The last time we chit chatted. This is what Orwell talks about. So the CNT FAI militia. And in the bottom right corner, these fellows here are the, some of the hardcore guys in the Darudy column. They're just terrorists and, and assassins. Basically. They're a, a. They're a strike force heavily armed with these grenades and then small arms. When we were talking about the FAI cellular organization structure, do you remember me talking about the people who are responsible for sourcing equipment?

[Pete Quinones]

Yes.

[Carl Dahl]

Including weapons. Well, they had whole groups of these cells that were just, just making these grenades. So they had a. It was first built. I have an article on my sub stack about it. It's really interesting. It was first designed. Well, they got the outline of the design from Ramon Franco. Is it Ramon or Raul? I think it's Ramon Franco who was a pilot and an anti monarchist, but not like an anarchist. But he was, he felt like we need to move forward in, in the, in the twenties when they were, when these anarchists and other people were plotting a lot. These, this one guy went undercover and claimed to be kind of like a, kind of a semi conservative, like middle of the road anti Monarchist. And he was saying, you know, he goes to Ramon and he's like, hey, you're in aviation. You know, I know that you're an anti monarchist. So and so, you know, made the, the introduction for us to chat. Could you help us like using your info, your knowledge about like aerial bombs and stuff to, to create a, they call it a hand bomb, Bulmas de Mano AKA a grenade. And based on, you know, what you know about aerial bombs. So he created an impact fuse detonated hand grenade. He kind of sketched the, the basics out. He let these guys inspect an aerial bomb and a design for an aerial bomb. And then this anarchist organizer who was the publisher of this Tierra e Libertad. Libertad, you know, Land and Freedom anarchist magazine to design this weapon. He got an Asturian miner who was an explosives expert, who was a member of the, the fai CNT Faith like extremist group to do the actual. Converting this kind of bomb, aerial bomb into like something that they could actually produce that would be useful. Now you can see in this picture, it doesn't look huge, but it's, it's on the big side for like what a hand grenade would be now. And it's blocky because it's, it's a, it's cylindrical and although it has these cast kind of cells in it, that wasn't originally intended necessarily because they thought that it would fragment like a pineapple grenade design that was actually to make it easy to grip. We, we know from analysis and, and the reason you see the smooth looking fragmentation grenades now the, those perforations are on the inside. The way the explosive works, like it actually fragments better that way. They didn't know that at the time. And part of it was just to make it easier to grip because it's big. So anyway, this puppy weighed a kilo and they were like this will be a good compromise. And what they found was the problem with a big fat hand grenade like this is that, you know, a kilo is 2.2 pounds and it's really hard to throw this the kind of distances that you need to throw where you don't have fragments going through your head. It also has this spring loaded impact fuse that if you know anything about like springs and inertia and inertially activated items, the act of throwing it alone can cause enough inertia for the firing pin to hit the detonator. So this became known as la parcial because it was like impartial as far as who it would kill. It would maybe kill the thrower, it would maybe kill the people in his crew because he couldn't throw it far enough to be outside of the lethal range of the shrapnel. This is what we call a defensive style of grenade in military terminology, which means that like you throw it from behind, cover and take cover because the fragments are going to get you. If you don't do that still hell on wheels in street fighting and for assassinations like incredibly effective weapon. One thing I'll also point out Pete, is that you'll see this band here that's wrapped around it. It, they would wrap a cloth streamer around it. And the idea was that it was an extra form of safety to hold down the lever. And you'll see that this is like a pin, like a cotter pin, like you have in like an American style hand grenade. This would make sure that the, the safety lever didn't fly off accidentally because like a pin got worked loose or whatever. And so that was an extra safety measure that came from the, their Lafitte hand grenade which I'll show you later. But it would also have this streamer effect so that when you threw it it would orient this, this firing pin in kind of inertial system so that it would, when it hit the ground it would land on the firing mechanism. It didn't always work out that way, but it was a, it was a very effective weapon. Especially at the beginning when they needed anything that they could get and they made tens of thousands of these things like even before the war kicked off. And then they were manufacturing them in factories that the, the anarchist like local council took over in Catalonia. And I think I told you this, they had 35,000 of them in trucks when the Daruti column went up from Aragon, the Aragon front as well as Catalonia up to Madrid to defend the city against Franco's oncoming army of Africa. So very, very interesting and effective weapon. Although again not something that lasted. They, they phased it out in spring or summer ish 1937 with a more kind of traditional style of, of grenade that I actually didn't do much dive into. I'll just show the kind of military issue ones but you get the idea. It's a, it's crazy but pretty sophisticated shop made weapon that was very influential especially at the beginning of the war, especially right at the uprising. Because if you have you know, hundreds of hand grenades in your crew of, you know, 50 guys, you can do a lot in street fighting even if you're not super well equipped.

[Pete Quinones]

Otherwise imagine knowing how sensitive those are and being the guy that they're like hey, climb in the truck and drive that, you know, 200 miles up to Madrid.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah, there's, there's design elements in the Lafitte that like take that into account that I'll cover in a second. But yeah, I think I mentioned this too. So this was first. Hey guys. It is Ryan. For years Chum has been setting the bar for online social casino fun. And it just keeps getting better. With new games released every week and daily bonuses to collect, the fun never stops. So claim your welcome bonus now@chumbac casino.com no purchase necessary Terms and conditions 21/ like refined in Argentina So a crew of anarchists in Argentina were building them and they were working or they were going back and forth between Argentina and Uruguay and they were, they were involved in local shenanigans in, in Argentina, attempted uprisings there. So there was a bomb factory there and the, the main manufacturer crippled himself. And of course you know, because a bomb went off basically or he was testing it and got hit by it. He wasn't killed but he had to sit there because again you can't take a guy during a military government, you know, dealing with an anarchist uprising who has like grenade injuries. You can't take him to the hospital. So this poor guy is just lying, you know, Scumbag. But still, you know, my, my Christian love is feeling compassion for all living things. This scumbag is lying there like Wrapped up, up, you know, explaining people to people who are less experienced how to make these things, these incredibly dangerous grenades with, with injuries from it. That's, that's dedication. You have to, you have to, you know, tip your hat to that level of dedication. Oh my goodness.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, that's. I immediately think to myself, well, he's an anarchist.

[Carl Dahl]

Yes.

[Pete Quinones]

Too bad he didn't get taken out. Yeah, yeah, that's my cat. That's my Catholic side saying, die commie scum.

[Carl Dahl]

Yes, of course, the, the other, the other famous self own with la impartial was this guy named Braulio who was again when they went back to Barcelona and they were manufacturing these in earnest because again you have to get out of, you have to get out of South America when they're on to you and you know, the, all these weapons there. I believe there was a failed uprising. A bunch of the weapons got captured and then the, the, the factory got captured. I found the original article in Spanish of course. And so it got captured along with the main bomb maker who was all crippled. And they're describing the scene, you know, these low level people. But then the masterminds got out of there and went back, back to Spain. So they're in Barcelona making these things and one of the main manu manufacturers, one of the main makers of this, blew himself up during testing. When they're out in the mountains northwest of Barcelona, if you've been to Barcelona, it's like coastline and then it immediately becomes mountainous, you know, low mountains, like high hills. But they're back in the forest there and so they just buried him there, there. And yeah, this fellow Braulio. So yeah, it was very famous for killing the people, making and using them. Good times.

[Pete Quinones]

So who's the, who's the tall drink of water next to Franco?

[Carl Dahl]

Oh that's. Oh my gosh. Why is my brain not working? General, the, the crippled guy. General Crippled guy. Is it Ariel Oriel?

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, yeah, I believe it's Oreo.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah, I think, I think it's Ariel. Yeah. So he's in a, he's in a movie about like right when the uprising happens and they. Gosh, I, I'll have to. I had someone ask me about movies about the Spanish Civil War and it was a very unsympathetic portrayal because he was really just a military man who was all about order. Like he co founded the Spanish Legion with Franco. They were best pals and yeah, very, very interesting fellow, but a key ringleader in the, in the, in the uprising. So we're going to look, it wasn't

[Pete Quinones]

Jose Milan Australia, was it?

[Carl Dahl]

It was Australia, Yes. I'm sorry. Yeah, Austre.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, okay, no problem.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah, thank you for that. So the Superlative Spanish Mauser 7 millimeter Mauser is such a nice little sweet spot. And a lot of like heavier weapons are, are coming back to this kind of 6.5 millimeter to 7 millimeter sweet spot. That was figured out like at the end of the 19th century with the first. This is a first generation smokeless cartridge and it's a very, very nice cartridge. The rim size is the same as. 3006 and 308. It's, you know, dimensionally it fits right into that, you know, nice, you know, nice middle range cartridge, High velocity, modest recoil, flat trajectory. They started out with kind of the long round bullet of like 170ish grains. No metric, sorry, euros. 139 grain Spitzer bullet at 2800 FPS. About 2400 foot pounds of energy. Plenty, plenty powerful flat shooting. This is the 1916 short model which became their standard carbine. Like 23 inch barrel, ish. 22, 23 inch. About 6 inches less tube out front than the original longer variants which were still used very heavily in the war that during the Boer War the, the Boer Republic employed similar Mausers 1893 and 1895s and 7 millimeter Mauser. They rocked the British so well that the British in the, in the 18 late 1890s that the British military like re evaluated their small arms theory and you know, really amped up next generation iteration of the 303 to, to meet that kind of capability because it was so flat shooting and so easy to hit and so easy to operate that they figured out like we're behind the times, like we need to, we need to get with it. The US Military also went toe to toe against the Spanish in Cuba and in, in the Philippines and then later in the war in Mexico, 1914. So in the Mexican Civil War the US intervened a little bit and if I recall they called it the Spanish Hornet because it was high velocity and would just rock you. They were using the 1873 Remingtons in 4570 as well as like, like the 3040 crag. And after they went up against the Spanish with the Crag, they were like yeah, we gotta, we gotta do something different here. Which is why we went to the, the 1903 Springfield, which if I recall correctly is a Mauser pattern action or am I thinking of the Enfield? But I'm pretty, I'm pretty Confident. It's, it's very mauser action esque in 30 06. So very. This was the main weapon. There were like 500,000 of them in Spain at the time of the. The war. You know, when they were first, when Mauser Paul Mauser developed this rifle and he actually got a military, Spanish military medal of merit and medal award for, for developing this weapon because the Spanish felt that it was such a, like a next generation piece of equipment for their military. Yeah. So they were actually manufactured in Oviedo up in Asturias for decades and that was like the main arsenal that was producing these rifles. Although during the. That was kind of redistributed as needed based on, you know, what was under control. The La Cruia also far up in the, the northwest of Spain, the La Coruna arsenal became a weapons manufacturer as well because the, the nationalists controlled it. Funny story, funny story. So in Asturius, you know, I was just talking about the Asturian, an Asturian miner that made this grenade design. Right. So Asturias was the center of the, the militant anarchist miners who were sappers and you know, dynamiters. Dina Mentaros and so they were really crucial shock troops for the, the, the anarchists in all of their attempted uprisings. Etc. Well, as well as resistance to the, the army uprising in 1936. So funny story. I'll write about it sometime soon. But funny story is that the, the military governor in the area, again under the Republic, but still a military governor because of the, the Oviedo factory and everything like that, swore up and down that he was loyal to the Republic. And you know, so when the uprising happened, this, this colonel said to these Asturian miners, hey guys, here's, you know, you can take some weapons, but I think you need to go to Madrid because the, the government needs to be protected. If the city falls, like, you know, we lose to these, these horrible fascists. So like 4,000 Asturian miners, like most of the, the left militants in and around Oviedo left and headed southeast. They got, they got blocked at the passes like going into Castilli Leon and got stymied there. And then the colonel said, psych, we're with the, we're with the nationalist uprising. And so they were able to hold the city and keep the, the factory even though most of the areas around them were were captured by Republicans and anarchists. So good times.

[Pete Quinones]

All right, so that looks like. Yeah, I've seen. Yeah, those are the exact boxes that this guy had at, at a show.

[Carl Dahl]

That's awesome. Because it was, that was the, that was the main way you could get this cartridge until like the, I know there was some commercial manufacturer, but it was, it was like well into the, the 2000s. I think before you could find anything other than this, you know, Spanish flag, you know, military arsenal produced ammunition, which is great ammunition. So. Astra 409 millimeter Largo. Astra is a Basque country arms manufacturer. They won this contract to make the pistol for the army, for the navy, for a bunch of, you know, government, law enforcement organizations, you know, carbonary equivalents, etc. Straight blowback, extremely heavy spring, long barrel, very low bore axis, Very nice shooting pistol. Very accurate because it, the, the barrel, it's not fixed like where it's pinned into the frame like on like an FN 1922. But it fits in with grooves into the receiver and so you can pop it out and clean it really easily. But it's like fixed in place. So very, very accurate pistol with a nice recoil operation. It's kind of weird because it's this long heavy spring thing. Really interesting ergonomics. It has this kind of like raised here on the, the, the grooves for the, the, the cocking grooves. It kind of swells out so that it fits your finger for like a pinch grip. It's really, really neat pistol. Down here on the right hand side, there's a comparison shot. This is 9 millimeter largo. So it's 23 millimeters long. It uses, it's basically the equivalent of a 9 by 19 millimeter in pressure. Maybe it's slightly lower pressure because it's an older cartridge. It has this crazy, crazy like long groove. Some things I've read about it is that some of this is based on a theory of cartridge layout for to work with a blowback pistol. And again lower pressure than like 9x19, which requires a locked breach. Although they were able to adapt this pistol just fine to use 9x19. Over on the right hand side is we have more modern cartridges. I believe the one Right here is 9x23 Winchester, which is very high pressure and very modern. And I believe that this is a 38 Super Rimless, which is basically the 38 super, but with a, a recessed rim rim. So these are very hot. Way hotter than 9x23 Largo, which is an early 20th century, you know, standard pressure kind of pistol. So very cool pistol, very basic. And it was the, the primary handgun just because again they made so many of them for government use. They were also available commercially, so plenty were privately owned commercially, etc and it was the main, it was the standard military issue handgun. The Republic made copies of them in Valencia and Barcelona. Was it Valencia? Yeah, Valencia and Barcelona. I think Valencia again. At these old arsenals they were able to. Government arsenals, they were able to reproduce them using the factories there. So I'm keeping this like platoon slash company level in terms of the weaponry. So the, these are very interesting and strange looking to us, but this is a tonalete hand grenade. It is, was a Spanish army issue hand grenade. They had a little wire loop for sliding it into your belt or mounting it on a, on a belt or hanging it on a bandolier or something like that. It was a cast iron, very small, like very throwable hand grenade. They had a rubber cap over the top and you would pop the, the rubber cap off and there was a little recessed area in this kind of whole top end here because there's essentially like a wall here. It was black powder. So it was a very old basic design that had Rosen in it I think to, to make it a little more weatherproof and less shock proof. So it was essentially a casting. It was liquid and then they would pour it in and it would harden while still maintaining its explosiveness. So like a low order explosive because it's black powder based, but it actually worked very well. It was a defensive grenade, but it had a small blast radius because it was black powder. And so it was actually very popular for that reason. They made this like in through the Civil War and there were, so there were copies of it. It. And it was lit with a wick. So it was a, a wire. So if you, if you've ever seen like, like on a, on a Zippo lighter, there's like wire structure.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. Take it. I've taken them apart and put it back and put them back together numerous times. Yeah.

[Carl Dahl]

So, so that it can, it can kind of hold and, and be a little more robust. And then there was a piece of, of a, like a little shard of like flint or something like that to be used as a striker. So flint and steel. Right. So you, you would strike it on the body of the grenade itself to light it. And it was actually very popular because it was very safe and it was reliable. Like it would light in rain and stuff like that. If you didn't like soak it in puddles and stuff like that. And it was not super dangerous for the user. Now it's slow. Like obviously that became very obsolete. But this design was copied extensively throughout the whole country and all these little small Again, artisanal shops or like naval arsenals were a big builder of this kind of weaponry. All throughout the country they would retool to copy these weapons. And this one is actually a variant that was made in Madrid. Again during the siege of Madrid. It became, you know, they started making these in their, in their particular style. So you saw these with militias and you saw it with the Republic and with the Nevada nationalists. This here is a really weird looking grenade called a Lafitte. It was a, originally a French design, but it was a Spanish issue offensive grenade. Meaning that it has a cast, not a cast, but like a sheet metal body so that it doesn't fragment that much. Like of course when it explodes the mechan, all the pieces will go flying. But the idea is an offensive grenade is you can throw it and assault into it. So like the German potato masher is an offensive grenade. They made them later where you could put a sleeve, like a fragmenting sleeve over it. But the idea was that this one also has a really weird fire control mechanism and it had a streamer to orient because it was also an impact fuse, but it was more like inertial. So there's this percussion system in here and then the detonator and the safety, like it had to be jostled with enough pressure with the safety mechanism removed that the, the spring would be able to hit the detonator. And then it was filled with like a liquid. A liquid or sludgy plastic explosive. So a high, a high explosive. So again offensive grenade used for, you know, you can throw it and it'll have like a 3 to 4 meter blast radius so you can charge into it. Like it's great for trench warfare and urban fighting, but kind of odd. It also had that streamer effect. And again the streamer would retain this weird sheet metal pressure plate that held down that like safety mechanism. And you would pull, you would pull this pin system and it would have to pull all the way out. So like three and a half, four inches before this plate would be loose so that it could, you could then throw it. And so like you would have it still be partially wrapped with a streamer so that you threw it it before the whole thing fell off. So you couldn't cook it like a percussion style grenade with a spoon, like the American style, you couldn't cook it off because there's no timer. You just threw it. So, and then over Here is a 50 millimeter trench mortar called the Valero that was manufactured by Esperanza Ethia. So Esperanza Co. Up in Basque country in a, in a smaller town. But they've been making these based on like World War I, like little like platoon level mortars and stuff. This is the precursor to like grenade launchers and stuff. So this was something that you saw like the Japanese knee mortar is really well known. It's basically most of the time you see it with just the body and you put it down on the ground and you don't fire it off your knee, you kneel and you, you lay it down and then aim it. But this one was done. You would lay this. The. One of the heaviest parts was the base. You'd put it into the ground and then aim with it lying down on your stomach while someone else loaded it and stuff, stuff like that. So very, very interesting and typical of the, the interwar period. That kind of weapon stuck around into World War II, but then it very rapidly went away with kind of miniaturization. Like you could move up to a 60 millimeter mortar or have grenade launchers and rifle grenades and stuff. All right, speaking of rifle grenades, I don't have anything in this here, but by 1938 there were, there was some use of rifle grenades by the nationalists using German rifles in 8 millimeter, using rifle grenades because the, you know, the Germans had used those in World War I and then they kind of redid them for World War II. And so some of the testing of the, of these weapons was done in Spain. So it is not me making stuff up when I have people using those in, in my book again at the very end of the war. All right, so again, keeping this mostly small arms, but I'm about to diverge from that in a second just because it's interesting. But Spanish medium and light machine guns, the Spanish had military liked the Hotchkiss, so French design and they used these stripper clips to feed from. So not belt fired, they, they went towards belt fed weapons later. But in the war they really modernized. You'll see this slash 38. They really modernized as the war went on because they had to ramp up the manufacture because they didn't have that many machine guns. They had the medium Hotchkiss over here, the 1914 that had proved itself in the Rif War. They used the 1922 which they adopted and made themselves under license beginning in 1925. That one also used these stripper clips. So here's the thing to keep in mind. You know, World War I to World War II, there were still a lot of these kind of old style of weapons that Phased out because we found things that worked better. Militaries tend to be really conservative and so if you think about it particularly like a good example is the. The Spanish Rift War. So they're running around in North Africa in horrible conditions and the supply lines are really long. And these stripper clips are easy to keep clean and dry. And you know you don't have cloth getting wet and rotting and you don't have have these super complex links that get all clogged up and everything like that. Like logistically like you can carry these stripper clips in bags and boxes and everything like that. And these are crew served weapons. They would have a sex session of six men. Right. That's like your fire team level. But it's also and like half of them to make a. You know, they make a full squad. Esquadra. Hey it's Bubba Wallace from 2311 Racing. You know what feels like forever

[Pete Quinones]

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[Carl Dahl]

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[Carl Dahl]

Sponsored by Chumba Casino NO PURCHASE NECESSARY VGW GROUP VOID where prohibited by law 21/ terms and conditions apply of 12 men. But you would have six men supporting each of these weapons later in the war. The light machine guns they reduced the number of guys supporting it a little bit. And part of that was in 1938 when they started building this weapon at La Coruna. They. They went towards the top magazine fed style. Only the Spanish and the British acquired the Hotchkiss and license for elements of the. The design of the Hotchkiss with a top magazine feed that the British used it for their trials where they ultimately adopted the Bren gun which is a cz, right. So it's a. It's a Czech design but they really liked this style and the. The Spanish nationalists move towards this top magazine fed version eventually. All right, so those were reusable. You know link systems are an issue because you, you know the links are everywhere this way. It's really easy to keep things like logistically simple, they last longer, etc. So very conservative thinking it. But it also kept the rate of fire down which meant the, the barrels lasted longer, you know, you kept your ammunition around more, etc. So anyway, just, just a basic philosophy. This was the beginning of the end for, for this these kinds of designs that this was one of the last usages of them anywhere. All right. And my, my only departure from small arms here is around armor. So the Spanish army had a handful of these Renault light tanks which were from 1917 or 1918 I think was the design. They liked them. They, you know, it took like two men to operate them plus, you know, your support team, you have the driver and the gunner. And it, they had variants with a light gun like a 37 millimeter and then another one with, you know, the same light machine gun we were just looking at. The idea was, is that it would be fairly fast to get, get around but be protected from small arms fire. It was completely obsolete by the time the war started, but it did. The reason I bring it up is because we're going to look at some stuff that, that they got, that the, the Republic got from the Soviets that's just super next generation. So anyway, wrapping it up there, they only had a handful of these things. They were imported. They had factories that were making some types of armored cars and stuff like that and tanks and repairing these. But there, there weren't that many. It was pretty new. So when you hear people talk about how Spain was the testing ground for a lot of the weapons used in World War II, it's kind of true, but in a lot of ways it was just because Spain didn't have much of this sort of thing. So when the Italians and Germans and, and Soviets brought them in, they, they would use them. But to be candid, the, the nationalists captured and used a huge amount of the, the Soviet weapons as well, just because they never had many of these Renaults and they didn't last long in the war. All right, so I mentioned. So that was the army and now I'm going to talk about like the Guardia Seville and then like one of their subgroups, which is the Cuerpo de Seguridad y Assalto, which is the assault guards. The assault guards were a specialist crew that were selected because they were very hardcore pro republic zealots that were very loyal to the government. When the war kicked off, the Guardia Seville as a whole split almost 50, 50 between the nationalists and the Republicans. A lot of it depended on where you were at or it come down to individual officers. But also like as things split up they, they tended to stick with whoever the local authorities were. So, but again the assault guards were arch libtards. So they, a very long time ago they started acquiring 4440 Winchester 1873 and 76s that were copied up in Basque country and then they had this very popular copy of the 1892 that was adopted in 1915 for the Guardia Seville and some like forestry officers and stuff. And they were very popular in civilian use. Over a million of them were made by the time the war started. A lot of those were shipped to like, like Central and South America. But there were a lot of them in the war. So you'll see especially at the beginning of the war you'll see a lot of pictures of militiamen with the, with this rifle or carbine. They also used, you know the Hotchkiss 1914 and 1922. Again this is military style police. They have heavy weapons. They also used the Mauser rifles. They had Approved the Astra 400 but they also adopted the model A which is very 1911 style in layout and look and feel in 9 millimeter Largo. So they didn't. They authorized usage and purchase of the 400 but they issued the model A in Largo large numbers. And then in 1934 the assault guards needed a new weapon. They had trials for machine pistols because they wanted to take advantage of this big industry up in the north where they were making copies of the Mauser broom handle with automatic fire and removable magazines. And so they had 9 millimeter. They adopted this the, the Astra Model F and 9 millimeter Largo. In 1934. The, the. The arms factories up in the north were captured by the. By the Basque authorities who were aligned with the the Republic. And Astra alone contributed several thousand and machine pistols and semi automatic broom handles to. To the war. A lot of them were in 763. And so they ran into logistics issues. The, the Nationalists as they captured them, they, they were trying to stay on top of and stay resupplied through commercial arms dealers bringing ammunition in and stuff like that. And they had some of that but the, the Nationalists actually used a whole bunch of them in 763 because they would just order from. They would get the ammo from the Germans. So. Right, it makes sense. All right, so that covers the official government. Most of those weapons that you saw were the core weapons used during the war. Militia acquisitions were different. This is a picture of Carlist militia in late like December 1936 kind of in that Aragon front up in the mountains there. You'll see some interesting weapons they have. They have Spanish Mausers, but then this is a Solothurn light machine gun. And they acquired a couple hundred of these before the war started. Specifically financed by their own acquisition group and brought in in Europe or from Europe, I should say. So they had some decent weapons, and this was kind of the model for all the different militias.

[Pete Quinones]

So

[Carl Dahl]

the key focus, like pre war jump off. They would typically have commercially available weapons. And that would mean either they purchase it legally, it came from seizure of weapons that were purchased legally from individual owners, or raiding depots or gun shops, you know, warehouses, or another thing that they would do is they would be redirected from exports. So again, the commercial manufacturer was mostly focused for the export market. And there were a lot of shenanigans where they would like, do the old switcheroo with shipping manifests. Again with a wink and a nod from people who were sympathetic to this and, or, you know, they would. These big industrial concern guys would arrange a order through an arms dealer in like, Belgium of Mauser broomhandle copies, and then at the same time, they would order a shipment from Ibar of like, hardware to, you know, Navarre or something like that. This is a specific example that happened. They switched around the shipping manifests and then shipped all the Mauser broom handles to Navarre, and all the hardware went to their complicit arms dealer in Belgium, clandestine purchased overseas and smuggled in. Up at the very top is an Arasaka rifle that was captured by the Russians in the Russo Japanese war. And the. A bunch of them got dumped onto the commercial market by the. The Soviet Union selling them after the civil war kind of settled out because they were kind of useless to them. They didn't always keep everything that they acquired in it for redistribution of their own, but they. They tended to use these obsolete weapons to. To arm. Arm different groups that they wanted to support. But a lot of that stuff was smuggled in in various ways, again through various trickery or just brought over the borders. Okay, so I'm not gonna. I was thinking about this, and this could have gotten too broad. We would have been looking at like, you know, German and Italian small arms and tanks and everything like that until our eyes bled.

[Pete Quinones]

Oh yeah, there's. There's tons.

[Carl Dahl]

There's too much.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, yeah.

[Carl Dahl]

So I decided to focus on what the Republic was getting. The, the shorthand of it is the Soviet Union supplied a large force of modern vehicles and advisors along with small arms. And the small arms were a mixed bag. We're gonna, we're gonna look at that in a little more detail. Those began to go through.

[Pete Quinones]

Have you ever looked at. Have you ever looked into the list of names of the advisors?

[Carl Dahl]

Yes.

[Pete Quinones]

Have you ever gone to their Wikipedia?

[Carl Dahl]

Yes. Did I ever look at their early life.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. How like almost every single one of them.

[Carl Dahl]

Yes, yes.

[Pete Quinones]

And also, isn't it, Isn't it interesting how when most of them got back home, they were no longer Soviets or alive?

[Carl Dahl]

Yes, yes. It's very strange. It's.

[Pete Quinones]

It.

[Carl Dahl]

I think it's. It. I should do a deep dive on this subject because it's. I think it's very important to understand that like Stalin was. I'm not going to do the whole, Gosh, what's the, what's the term, the nickname that people have? Nazbo. I'm not going to do the whole nationalist, national socialist, Bolshevik thing. Like, it's. But it is really interesting how these kind of internationalist shock troops very much were sent out to agitate elsewhere and not, you know, not be around the Soviet Union as much as possible.

[Pete Quinones]

Right.

[Carl Dahl]

I think that's the, the briefest way to describe it.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. And one thing that I didn't realize until I had jaw out a poll on was that he. Stalin really wasn't extremely. He really didn't care about that one certain group too much.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah.

[Pete Quinones]

He cared more about groups that were like diaspora groups, like polls or Germans who were, who were in there, who could, who could collude with their home countries. Yes. Those are the ones he went and executed.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah.

[Pete Quinones]

It wasn't until Israel became. Started to exist that he. That there was a certain focus because. What is it now? Now this is the diaspora group.

[Carl Dahl]

Yep.

[Pete Quinones]

That. That can be a threat to the Soviet Union.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah. Because he could. He could control or direct their energy again, just like you said, send them in the international brigades or as quote, unquote advisors out into the world to do their thing again. They're. They're their own kind of group. But as long as they're doing the work that he wants them to do, they're like not a threat. Threat.

[Pete Quinones]

Right. Or.

[Carl Dahl]

And. But at the same time, the whole cleanup that took place is very interesting and it seems very nuanced. Like, could the. Could these people. These people kind of have an esprit de corps and it's. It's its own thing. And then they come back and they could be a separate faction. And I don't want a separate faction going on in, in my country.

[Pete Quinones]

Tree.

[Carl Dahl]

So it's interesting.

[Pete Quinones]

Or there could be, you know, the thing of. Well, you lost.

[Carl Dahl]

Yes, that's true. That's true.

[Pete Quinones]

I mean, and I'm not saying that what you were talking about was. I'm saying all of it. You know, why not both?

[Carl Dahl]

Yes, yes. Why not?

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah, why not both? Porque no los dos. So it's really interesting because Tyler redick here from 2311 Racing Victory Lane. Yeah, it's even better with Chumba by my side. Race to chumbacasino.com let's Chumba. No purchase necessary VTW Group void where prohibited by law CTNCs 21/plus sponsored by Chumba Casino so when in July 1936 when the, the military uprising happens and it takes a little, you know, it has its fits and starts the, the Soviet Union already had international like internationals lined up and organizing and they had all these weapons ready to go and they were arriving almost instantly. And so you know, for, for there to be a reaction and for something to spin up from nothing like it really shows and goes to emphasize the fact that, fact that they, the, the Soviet international had plans and had connections with all these different, you know, people in government and all these other countries and they, they expected this to happen at any point because they had ships loaded with weapons and ammunition and vehicles and fuel headed straight to Spain. Like right away they were, they were landing the, the turnaround time for this like you never would have. For you to believe that this, they just reacted to this is hilarious. And you see this all the time in the, in the lefty write ups on the subject. It's so obvious that they were ready to go that now in fairness to get the international volunteers spun up up logistically that took a while but they were arriving at the same time. So you know there were a lot of people that didn't volunteer until like a couple weeks after the, the uprising happened and this and the civil war began and they already had systems to plug into to get to Spain. How coincidental. And a lot of that came through France. Paris was the headquarters for the, the Soviet international that was managing the international brigades. Officially like most of the, the brigades were going through France. So France was, France downplayed its, its participation. Their big thing was administering armship shipments and people and aircraft and fuel. They were providing a lot of their air force's aircraft and fuel and bombs and ammunition and stuff like that. But their most important role was just facilitating the flow through. They would open it up and close it off and there's all this stuff in you know, Libtard and you know even Beevor Bevor talks a lot about like the party line of like oh France, you should have helped the Republic more. But they were getting a huge amount of pressure. There was this whole non intervention pact element and stuff like that. France was breaking the Rules, you know, that everyone had agreed on. Soviets were, the Germans and Italians were right like the Americans and British were allowing, you know, trucks and tires and fuel to go to the nationalists. So it's everyone lying and pretending that they're following the rules just like happened so often in the 20th century. So let's talk very briefly. Soviet armor, huge game changer happens. And like a lot of firsts happen in 1936 in Spain, or at least supposed firsts. So the up at the top is a BA3 6. It's a, it's an, a Soviet armored car that has a turret, the same turret as the T26 tank turret and gun I should say, and the same Turret as the BT5 down below, which is a light tank. So if, if everyone remembers correctly, so under the Treaty of Versailles, Germany couldn't develop certain kinds of vehicles and military weapons or build them. And so you may or may not know that they were doing a lot of development work in the Soviet Union because the Soviet Union was also under certain types of sanctions and restrictions at the same time. So the funny mustache man and even people before funny mustache man in their military were doing these secret, the secret work in a quote unquote tractor factory in the Soviet Union. So a lot of the development of these weapons was kind of collaborative between those countries, but they ended up going into, in, in some pretty different directions. The armored car up at the top was based on, I believe it was a Ford, a Ford design that was being manufactured. They provided it as aid and then they, then it turned, was turned into an armored car. Anyway, the Soviets built a lot of these things and so between the two it's like, like the, the tank is the most flexible in terms of the terrain it can go over. The armored car is best on roads, but it can go a lot faster, lighter armor while still having a fair bit of firepower. So these, in the battle, like right before they got to Madrid, so north of, north of, you know, the battle of the Alcazar, they start the army of Africa starts running into these, these tanks and armored cars. The kind of the southern periphery of the plane that Madrid sits on in the very middle of the country. And so you get the first, supposedly the first Molotov cocktail deployment by nationalists, you know, fire bottle style. I'm skeptical that that was the first time, but the name Molotov cocktail came out because General Molotov was, you know, said hey, we need to have this be like kind of a standard plan for urban warfare and anti tank stuff. The general idea Was that the, if you throw burning fuel on top of the kind of the air intakes for the engines for these tanks, you can, can slow them down or disable them. So lots of crazy tank battles, they don't have good anti armor weapons. They eventually get the Germans and the Soviets make them available and it's literally just these like tank guns 37 and 40, 45 millimeter I think on the, the German one but. And then the Germans of course go full retard with like exotic optics and the Soviets just use basic iron sights that are fine for the ranges that are involved. So the general decision that the nationalists came to was that in general the Soviet ones were better because they were simpler and they were just as good. So important thing to think about I think. So anyway that was the only departure that I really wanted to have with small arms. The other thing that the, that the Republic gets is cast offs from the Red Army. So the Red army if, if we go back to World War I again, I'm not going to put on the Putin hat, but if we go back to World War I, there were a couple things that were going on as the, as the Russians, the Imperial Russian army was gearing up again massive army. They were going all over the place to acquire as much as they could get in terms of firearms for their army and any equipment as was, as could be had. This is an interesting picture because we have here a modern Czech or Polish egg style fragmentation grenade that this guy's throwing and he's using a French like really crappy obsolete single shot 8 millimeter rifle from the previous century. And I think that's a Polish helmet. So that the Red army had this thing where as they went through all this World War I weapon weaponry, some of it was stuff they had captured captured. Some of it was stuff that they captured in the, in the 20s, right in the late teens and the 20s as they were running around Eastern Europe. Others were these old weapons that the Imperial Russian army acquired to gear up just to have anything. The left hand side here is one of my favorites and one of my characters uses this rifle. So this is a Winchester 1895. The Imperial Russian army went to America like went up into like Connecticut in, during the war and said we need 760 2x54 rifles. Like Westinghouse and Remington were building the Mosin Nagant for them to their standard. A whole bunch of those got surplused because they were rejected by the Russian Imperial inspectors because like the wood wasn't pretty enough and stuff like that. It's totally bizarre, but they got several hundred thousand of these 1895 lever actions in 760x54. They're fed by a stripper clip through the top. Beautiful, long, cool rifles. Very nice. But the Soviet army was focused on standardization and modernizing. They didn't want to use old worn out rifles. So what happened was kind of people on the outskirts of the Soviet Union were getting these rifles so they were using them in uprisings in, in Finland and in the Balkans and the Baltics especially. And they sent like 34,000 of them to Spain. And there's a whole bunch that the, the Spanish government released in like the 60s and 70s, I want to say onto the US market through interarms. So some of the best we have intelligence documents and photographs that are available online that I'll put a link to that the, the nationalists did during and especially after the war where they were accounting for like everywhere all these weapons came from because that, what they wanted to do is figure out where these weapons were coming from, who was supplying them because they were appealing to like the British and Americans and plus these non intervention groups, you know, these governmental organizations that are multinational organizations to monitor this stuff because they wanted to cut down on the amount of weapons that were coming in. So anyway, so they were documenting where all this stuff was coming from. So we know that this came from the Soviets. We know these Lebel rifles and stuff were coming from the Soviets from again these old World War I stockpiles. They also had arms dealers who were sending Polish bars to the Republic in 1936. Enfield rifles that had been captured by the Germans that had ended up like in, in weird, in weird spots with arms dealers somehow like the Germans and maybe unloaded them or put them in warehouses and they weren't found until later like Ross rifles from Canada from World War II or excuse me, World War I that somehow ended up in Belgium and, or in France. They had Lebel rifles, they had Bergmann light machine guns coming in in 792. They had 8 millimeter man literature like all this Austrio Hungarian stuff was floating around and so they were shipping it there like all kinds of crazy calibers. And Then so the Berthier 8 millimeter labels, all this crap that no one wants and they're getting ammunition with it, but that's like all the ammunition that's available. So you know Pete, when you know there isn't much like World War I and World War II stuff that still shows up on, on the market commercially, but when it comes in like it usually comes in with like all the ammunition they have in that caliber. And then it stops like you never see it again. So you have to order it from, you know, these European small manufacturers for like $30 a box for 20 rounds and stuff like that. That was what logistically was taking place with all these old random weapons except 762 by 54 Mosin Nagant and Maxim machine guns. Like this old worn out stuff. It was obsolescent but still good quality stuff. The Red army had moved on. They were focusing on building new stuff and going in different directions. So the old stuff was going to spam. These pictures are from the battle of the Ebro or around the time of the battle of the Ebro. And at this point all those old weapons had. And all their ammunition, like all the weird French stuff, all the weird Austrian stuff, like most of that stuff had been used up by the time of this battle or it was being held in reserves. They were really logistically like the 762x50 54 Soviet stuff was the big focus in that war or that part of the war additionally with that commercial acquisition and aid. So this is a, a check, a check. Mauser in 8 millimeter. There was a bunch of that too. And then our friend the FN 192232 automatic. The International Brigades and a lot of the Republican forces that you'll see in this battle of Ebro, they have 8 millimeter. For the, the main guys on the offensive they have 8 millimeter Mausers and 8 millimeter Bars and 8 millimeter Bren guns. You know the, the Czech ones. Bubba Wallace here from 2311 racing on the track. My car's look is everything. But today I'm talking about more than just paint schemes. I'm talking about my favorite games at Chumba Casino. 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[Pete Quinones]

The,

[Carl Dahl]

you know, all the, all this kind of like random stuff where they have the logistics for it. They kind of dial it in to where they're by unit. The units are using the same weapons and they're as standardized as much as they can. But they have to use what they have. And you'll see tons and tons and tons of the architects, officers, whether they're international units or they're the, the Republic's officers with FN 1922 pistols because of huge acquisitions of those that were all down there hanging out in like Catalonia, ready to go. So again, another weird thing that happened is like Mexico, which had a socialist government at the time, sent a whole bunch of Mosin Nagants they had acquired. They had bought a bunch of those, the American made Mosin Nagant and used it themselves like during their civil war and you know, in the 20s. And then they shipped a ton of them over. They sent a whole bunch of 7 millimeter Mauser rifles because they were kind of going in a different direction. There were sanitized Polish Mausers, so the Poles were selling them just for money and sanitizing them by like milling out the markings in the crests that showed that they were Polish. And then again, like I said, those Czech commercial weapons and stuff like that. So it's this crazy time. There's all this World War I surplus, there's all this other, even pre World War I surplus, all the stuff captured in World War I flows through different arms dealers. And a lot of it is because the Russians are doing, the Soviets are doing an awful lot of that. Like the real bulk, huge orders of stuff were coming from the Soviets, but there was some interesting, like pretty high end new stuff coming from, from Poland and the Czech Republic as well. So that brings us to, you know, like, let's cement this in time. We're done with my gun autism and you've seen me share this map before, but here I have a slightly different talk track. So as you'll remember, the military uprising, so the nationalist uprising is most successful in the conservative parts of Spain. And as well as like military, certain military strongholds, it was often squashed in street fighting by leftist militias. So like Barcelona, Santander, Toledo and Madrid, control of the arsenals and factories absolutely critical. So if you have control of those domestic sources, of those weapons, that makes the difference between being able to field people for actual fighting as well as continued production. So that logistical nightmare, the, the nationalists did a much better job of securing the arsenals in the factories. And so the Republic was left on the back foot where they ended up, you know, like I showed they had like small and local manufacture of stuff, but like Barcelona, like 2 million cartridges being produced was this big deal. Like 2 million cartridges is nothing in a, in a, in a real war that was like the best they could do. So they were super dependent on imports. And again, so that's why I emphasized the, the Republic's imported weapons. So again the left militias were largely equipped by what they brought, what they could bring to the, to the fight. All those random like small weapons or stuff that was smuggled over, handguns, grenades, they made unless they could capture arsenals or persuade the Republic to release weapons. Like in Madrid there's this whole drama of the back and forth for like months before the. At least a month before Azania releases the arsenal to the leftist militias and then they're able to actually fight at that point. So yeah, that wraps up what I had prepared. Hail Franco, Hail Victory.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, it's I think the most. The, the CAR lists having been so organized before the war even kicked off.

[Carl Dahl]

Yes.

[Pete Quinones]

Really stands out. And then the Republicans having everything ready to go. You know, it's almost like the, it's almost like the Carless. The Carlis knew before and were better equipped for what was coming than any of the other groups on the right.

[Carl Dahl]

100%. Yeah. Even the military in a lot of places like the, the, the military's weaponry, it was so dispersed and the CAR lists just came loaded for bear with. Do you remember me talking about their military advisor Don Pepe, who was running around and equipping them? He had been, he was basically a spec ops guy who was. Who was running around Europe for. During the 20s and in the 30s even under the Republic, learning about state of the art military organization, structure, employment and then the advanced weaponry. So he was advising and helping direct that. Which is why the Carlists had the latest stuff. They had old stuff too, like they have art in a lot of cases like Arasakas and stuff. But they also had. Had tons of light machine guns to, to start off, you know, relative, relative to everyone else. So yeah, they were ready to go. And again going back to that map, which I will go back to here, that's how they secured this huge swath. They split the key Republican zones because this is where so many of the weapons were manufactured. You'll see a corunia and then Oviedo is an. Is an exception. It's in blue because it's nationalist. Yeah. So very, very important, important thing to think about again as we look at the theoretical like nothing ever happens type. People like you have to have plans and you. And you have to think, think at what's been done in the past and what's worked in the past and, and think. Think about logistics. It's not just, it's not just fun with autism, although I love that stuff. I would also say again, I highly recommend that people check out my article on the. The commercial or military and artisanal hand grenades of the Spanish Civil War. On my substack it goes into detail about the. The CNTFAI production and that whole history there. There's almost nothing in English on that subject until like very recently I've seen some translations of Spanish stuff go into like wikis, like little tiny blurbs. But that's another thing to think about when you're thinking of lawfully legal fund theoretical educational activities.

[Pete Quinones]

Well, awesome, Carl. Of course I'm going to include the links, but remind everybody else where they can find. You've already mentioned the substack. Give me address and everything.

[Carl Dahl]

Yes, Karl Dahl. K A R L d a h l.substack.com I'm also on Twitter, but just look for Carl Dahl and you'll be able to find me that way. I have one of those unfortunate names because Twitter is evil. So

[Pete Quinones]

I appreciate it. Thank you.

[Carl Dahl]

Thanks, Pete.

[Pete Quinones]

I want to welcome everyone to part seven of my reading of Warren H. Carroll's the Last Crusade. And for the first reading of this series that I've been doing, my sixth book, I have a guest, Carl Dahl. How are you doing, Carl?

[Carl Dahl]

Doing well, Pete, thank you.

[Pete Quinones]

When I had John recently, your. Your knowledge of the war, the fact that you learned a lot of Spanish so you can read books that aren't available in English. I think that that impresses me. It's impressing a lot of people. And as I said in a substack that I did this week, I think that we really need to study this. Study this topic for numerous reasons. One that I will just throw out there right off is that the good guys won and the good guys really only won twice in the 20th century. And the other one you don't hear about because it happened in Finland.

[Carl Dahl]

Yes. No, that's a really good point. And you're talking about the first time around. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. So. All right, yeah, let's get this going. You've. If you've heard any of my read alongs with other people, you know that jump in and stop me anytime.

[Carl Dahl]

You got it?

[Pete Quinones]

See, we're going to spoil people with this one. I want people to know my readings, the readings I've been doing are literally me just because. Because I have an hour somewhere and I have nothing to do. And it's me jumping in and saying, hey, let's read this, let's get this done. I don't plan these at all. This is actually the first one of these six books that I've read in a row that I planned and I wanted to have someone on because. Well, first of all, like I said, your knowledge of the is far beyond mine. And it's just. I think it would help a lot of people. I think it's, it's that important that people, other people could come on and comment. But right up front, Carl knows more about this than I do right now. I'm going to ask him to give some background on Largo Caballero. Don't get spoiled. This isn't going to happen all the time. All right, people. So, Carl, the first two letters of this, this chapter, the first two words of this chapter are the name Largo Caballero. What do you know about Largo Caballero?

[Carl Dahl]

So his name, it's funny, his name translates as long night. Like caballero is a knight, caballo is a horse. So, you know, horseman. And it's kind of interesting because the old culture of Spain was largely rotated around the nobility, the, the caballeros and all, all over the Western hemisphere, a caballero. It's a respectful way to refer to a friend or something, calling him a gentleman or sir or something like that. Right. Largo Caballero was a piece of garbage. He was a. Well, his party, he was more radical than his party position. So, so his party and, and sometimes I don't get the. All the different kind of like sub communist, non Bolshevik, you know, national communist groups nailed perfectly. But he worked very closely with the Comintern. He was essentially a stalking horse for the Communist Party when he was in prison. I'm trying to remember if it was under the. It may, it may have been in the 20s. He was imprisoned for a bit under

[Pete Quinones]

the

[Carl Dahl]

excellent dictatorship of Primo de Rivera. And he read Lenin and got extremely radicalized. So he would say completely insane things about wanting to eradicate hate, the, the religion of Christianity and the Church, you know. So one of it, it's as you keep re. Reiterating something that I always reiterate, which is that the republic was not, you know, lowercase r. Well, we're supposed to be a republic, not a democracy that people say in the United States all the time. It was a. It was a frame up to get rid of the old system, the monarchy, to basically throw out the Cortez and have people's revolution in whichever flavor the various parties wanted. The various left parties wanted, I should say, you know, anarchists, rabid socialists, you know, all kinds of communists, whether they be national or non. Largo Caballero essentially handed over his government to the, the most insane people. And he was one of the most rabid enjoyers of, of violence that there was. So they'll talk about it here in his relationship with a Zanya and, and all the, the various flavors of things that, that they do. And so yeah, he was the first to include like literal communists in his cabinet because he was technically again not a Bolshevik Communist Party member. But that's really what he was.

[Pete Quinones]

All right, here we go. Largo Caballero set up his new government on September 4. Lasagna gave his full consent even after Largo Caballero had set as a non negotiable condition of accepting the position of Prime Minister that he be permitted to include communists in his cabinet, which no country other than the Soviet Union and communist ruled Mongolia had ever done. One of the communist ministries was most significantly Education. The minister was Jesus Hernandez. The other was Agriculture under Vincente Uribe. But there was also a third communist in Largo Caballero's government in the highly important position of Foreign Secretary Julio Al. Julio Alvarez. Excuse me. Sorry guys. Julio Alvarez Del Vallo, a close and obedient collaborator with the Comintern, though not a listed member of the Communist Party. Can you quickly. Yep, go ahead. Yeah.

[Carl Dahl]

All right. So I want to point something about, about all these different ministries that were handed directly to the communists. So there are elements, when you read the more detailed histories where the anarchists are involved and you know, some of the other parties a lot of times while they're, they're anti anti Christian and stuff, they're, they're a little less psychotic. But when you look at the ones that the communists were in charge of, that's education. And as you pointed out, Pete, before this education was basically delivered to anybody who wanted it it via the church. So if kids in remote villages were getting any education, it's because the church was providing it to them. If people were getting any kind of charity, it was generally through the church. There were, almost no one else was doing anything of that nature. So education handed to the Communists. Agriculture. What do we know about the Soviet Union collectivization of agriculture. The, you know, the kulaks were eliminated. You know, you have the holodomor in Ukraine again, that was all under the auspices of agricultural departments. And then finally the Foreign Secretary, the Foreign Secretary, Alvarez Del Vallo is the one who handed control of the military essentially to the Comintern, AKA the Soviet Union. I'll hand it back to you.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. And I want to make a point Because a lot of conservatives and Republicans and libertarians will talk about the failure of communism, how they can't feed their people. They don't talk about how that's done on purpose.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah, exactly.

[Pete Quinones]

How certain groups are targeted to not get food.

[Carl Dahl]

These crazy liberals.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. What are they thinking?

[Carl Dahl]

They're so stupid.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. Don't you know that if you control prices, you're going to have shortages?

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah, that's the idea.

[Pete Quinones]

Salvador de Mariaga calls his appointment a clear sign of the rising power of Moscow in Spanish affairs. Communist Party members Hernandez and Uribe accepted their two ministries from Largo Caballero only after being specifically instructed from Moscow to do so. From the time of its establishment, the Largo Caballero government was committed to, quote, exaction of revolutionary justice and recognition of, quote, people's courts. In other words, to a continuation of the massacres and martyrdoms that had reddened the six weeks in republican Spain since the military uprising. Other important cabinet appointments were Prieto as Minister of Navy and air. Navy and air. And Juan Negren as Minister of Finance. Largo Caballero had tried to persuade the anarchists to join his government, also not so absurd an idea as at first it appeared for a substantial section of the anarchists, led by Juan Garcia Oliver now advocated such participation. However, contrary to their theoretical position, at this time, the majority of Spanish anarchists and their leaders were not quite ready to do it. But on September 26, anarchists led by Garcia Oliver accepted the ministries of war, economics, supply and public health, and a new local government in Catalonia set up by the supple Luis Campinas. How do you. Do you know how to pronounce his name properly? Companies. Okay. Yeah.

[Carl Dahl]

And sometimes you can put a little spin on it because it's a. It's a Catalan name. That's what. That's one of the things that you'll find is the really wacky names are. Are Catalan or Basque, generally, the ones that are hard to pronounce. Harder to pronounce.

[Pete Quinones]

Okay. That's where Basque is. Where, you know, when you do the DNA test and shows up and they give you the first. Like the first section of the country that you're. Yeah, like the most. Yeah. Minus Basque.

[Carl Dahl]

I'm not. I'm not terribly surprised by that, but I. I've. I've had too many conversations about racial purity with. With Latin American hueros. 1. One super quick thing, Pete, that I want to point out, and I'll try not to too much because otherwise it'll take us an eternity to get through this.

[Pete Quinones]

No, well, well, here's the thing. Here's the thing about this. Remember what you're going to say. This can do a lot. This one episode can do a lot. We can cover a lot of the background of a lot of people and then I can just go on with the reading. Reading from here.

[Carl Dahl]

Awesome. So there's, there's really subtle things in here that it takes a lot of reading, a lot of it not in English to get like good details on. You can have a general, you can catch it from general histories like Beaver. You know, I'll add one more thing. If you're reading general histories about the war, ignore Preston. He sucks. He's. He's a commie. He's a, he's a piece of garbage. And everything that he does is. He makes excuses, he makes excuse after excuse. Here you've just read in just a couple paragraphs the, all these ministers of the government where they essentially sanctified, you know, in a communist sanctification, you know, blasphemous definition. Of course the, the chekas. So all of the crazy revolutionary people's courts where they're running around Madrid and blasting people. That's official policy where they're just executing people in these prisons. I, I want to say it was, what was it, 6,000 in the first couple months in Madrid that they just had summary executions of like minimum. That, that was official government policy of the republic. So when these apologists make excuses for these people that, I mean that's, that's what the thing is. The last time we talked, we talked about Prieto a little bit because he was a, I mistakenly called him a Basque socialist politician. He, he was actually, his family was a. From Asturias and they had settled in Basque country to work in industry there. And so, so that was when I was talking about how most of the time the socialists and leftists that were in Basque country had migrated to the cities to be the working poor from other parts of Spain. Whereas the locals generally tended to remain traditionalist Catholics even if they were like pro separatist Basques versus the nationalist aligned Carlists. And a lot of the former were incorporated into the car list units very smoothly. So they had a huge, a huge amount of recruiting out of the, the Basque traditionalists who had started out as republican republicans under arms, so navy and air. So again that's, that is just a conduit with the Soviets and the French to a lesser degree. They always downplay the French French supplies by their socialist government. Juan Negrin, as Minister of Finance he shipped all of Spain's gold and silver reserves to France and the Soviet Union. Three quarters of it, I think, went to the Soviet Union.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah.

[Carl Dahl]

A quarter went to France and so very important. So. So they drained the coffers in exchange for military aid. And it was actually one of the worst deals in human history because they went from the country, they were among the top countries in terms of gold reserves held by the national banks to having nothing. So they went full fiat currency with no monetary, no, no, you know, hard currency backing it.

[Pete Quinones]

It's.

[Carl Dahl]

It's only literally whatever the Republic said that they have and so like, immediately became valueless currency. Outside of republican controlled areas where they were issuing script and stuff like that, people were still using the old currencies because they had precious metals in them. So they were inherently valuable. And you could take them to foreign countries if you were a refugee or if you wanted to buy, buy hard goods, weapons, whatever. That's that relationship that happens there. So you've gone through people who completely betrayed the country of Spain and handed it over to outside forces basically immediately. I'll stop.

[Pete Quinones]

Well, and, you know, I mean, we're in that situation now.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah. Oh, of course, yeah, yeah.

[Pete Quinones]

A friend had contacted me today and asked me about. Do you have an opinion, a quick opinion on Jose Maria Gironela? The Cypresses believe in gods, fame and the evil of the Civil War. Are you familiar?

[Carl Dahl]

Oh, gosh, I haven't read it. I haven't read it because what I do is whenever I'm writing, I don't read fiction of any kind. So I haven't read literally any fiction about the Spanish Civil War because I don't want it in my brain when I'm writing.

[Pete Quinones]

Because you're writing fiction about Spanish Civil War.

[Carl Dahl]

Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yep, Yeah, I get it.

[Pete Quinones]

All right. Onward. Largo Caballero called his new regime a government of victory and named himself a minister of war as well as Prime Minister. He immediately replaced the exhausted and ineffective Detective General Rickel, may I believe that's how that's pronounced. Is that close enough? Yeah, yeah. In command. Yeah. I'm the one here with the Spanish last name. And I'm asking it.

[Carl Dahl]

I took it for four years and Latin. So I should be better than I am.

[Pete Quinones]

So did I. I took Latin too. All right. He immediately replaced the exhausted and effective General Recalme in command of the central front, the approaches to Madrid, with Jose Asencio, just promoted by Largo Caballero general. The young 44 brilliant Asensio was one of the few regular army officers who had served in Morocco to stay with the Republic.

[Carl Dahl]

Ryan Seacrest here. Every great barbecue has one secret ingredient.

[Pete Quinones]

Patience.

[Carl Dahl]

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[Pete Quinones]

Champa Casino Largo Caballero sent him to meet Yagwe and his nationalist striking column in the Tag Valley near Talavera de la Reina, which the Nationalists had just taken. Asensio's force was supported by the first foreign volunteers to go into the battle for the Republic. Italians and French. After a hand fought battle, Yagweh broke Asensio's men and the inadequately trained volunteers and they fled the field. But Yagwe's men had suffered significant losses and needed some rest to recover from the rigorous of their tremendous march under the summer sun of southern Spain. So the nationalist advance halted for the time being. The Yagwe did send a detachment north to firm up a link with General Mola's men at Arenas de San Pedro in the Greedos Mountains. Over the next two weeks, the main column advanced only 25 miles.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah. So a huge difference. Difference compared to their pace before. Think how worn out they would be. Think how much of a problem water would be. Because that, those mountains in that part of Spain are very arid in the summer. There's just, there's very little water. If you've ever seen the area around Madrid, it's like north, north of the mountains. You know, it can, it's greener, you know, it's Espana Verde like farther up once you get past the, the high plains. But down in that area it is extremely arid. So that's, that's not surprising. They, they won, but they were super worn out. And that's something that kind of shows the, the relevance of the, the militias who, who were able to capture and hold territory and, and take, you know, huge casualties. You were reading last time about the, the rakute and the advances that they made in capturing territory. But it's, it's a huge logistical effort to actually make strong advances, especially in, you know, with this thing called weather. So anyone who's been in the mountains knows how much water that you drink when you're, when you're hiking. And that's. That's not even like digging in and engaging in combat around anything.

[Pete Quinones]

On the nationalist side, the Crusade was more than ever a reality. Just as Communist volunteers from other nations were now arriving to fight for the Republic, Catholic, Catholic, foreign volunteers were arriving to fight for the Catholic Nationalists. The Irish were first in the field on the Catholic side. It's funny, they said they sat out so many wars, but, you know, just. Yeah, yeah. The leader of the 1st Irish Volunteer Battalion, Francis McCullough. I believe that should be pronounced. It looks like McCullough to me, wrote during September to President Eamon de Valera of Ireland, quoting, I am in Spain. I see Spain all around me. Excuse me a second. Sorry. I am in Spain. I see Spain all around me. I live and move and breathe in the shadow of the greatest horror that has befallen Europe since Sevisk drove the Turk from the gates of Vienna. Not a Spaniard in my company has not had a sister outraged, a father murdered under circumstances of indescribable barbarity, or a brother butchered because he was a priest or a novice in some monastery. A very striking feature is the number of religious emblems the officers and soldiers wear. Pinned to their breasts are little red cloth badges of the Sacred Heart of a kind very common in Ireland, and holy metal. While around the necks of many hang rosary beads, scapulars of the Virgin del Pilar, and that cross whereon the Reds delight to trample. Never since the Moors were driven from Spain has there been such a Catholic army in this country as there is today. This is not an army. It is the Church militant on the march. It is Catholic action personified. This is not a civil war. It is a holy war, a Crusade. These are not soldiers. They are fighting monks, Knights, Templars. And like all good monks, they are cheerful. Never was there such a singing army. Whenever one wakes up at night, one hears the singing soldiers go past. What then has caused this extraordinary outburst of piety? In my opinion, the principal cause is the sacrilegious fury of the Reds and their diabolical hatred of the Cross of. Of Christ. That fury and that hatred convinced the Catholics of Spain that they had to deal with the forces of Hell itself. The Spanish Catholics were not frightened by the foul and cruel murders which deprived them of their wisest and gentlest counselors. On the contrary, they were strengthened, for many of those victims died like veritable saints of God. And the Catholic army now sees them standing outside the limits of space and time. Immortal, immortal, invulnerable. Far more potent than than they were on earth, interceding, assisting, encouraging from the courts of infinite wisdom and infinite strength. End quote. On September 14, speaking to a group of several hundred Spanish refugees post PI Pope Pius XI that post Pilate Pope Pius XI declared that a truly satanic hatred of God God had been displayed in the Spanish Republic. What had happened to so many of the Spanish clergy was what was he said, quoting Martyrdom in the full, sacred and glorious meaning in the word martyrdoms in which were sacrificed the most innocent lives, the lives of old and venerable men, youthful lives still in their flower, martyrdoms of which the victims in their generous heroism have gone so far as to ask for a place in the vehicle of along with those whom their executioner is taking to their death. But then he went on, as it is ever a Pope's duty to do, to caution the defenders of God and religion in Spain never to forget that their enemies were still their brothers whom they must still try to love and not to give away to vengeful fury. He may already have heard of the massacres inflicted on helpless prisoners on the Spanish Balearic island of Mallorca by the man who curiously emerged as his governor after a nationalist force took the island from the Republic on September 3, an Italian fascist officer named Arcano Arkanovaldo Bona Corsi. That, that sounds German to me. Well, how's that Italian whose bloody reprisals turned the profoundly Catholic French writer Bernanos against the Spanish Crusade in his sad book the Great Cemeteries under the Moon. He was in Majorca at this time and never saw any other part of Spain during the civil war. So the Pope said, quoting it is only too easy for the very ardor and difficulty of defense to go to excess. Intentions less pure selfish interests and mere party feeling may easily enter into cloud and changed morality and responsibility for what is being done. What is to be said of all these others who are also who are so near and never cease to be our sons, in spite of the deeds and methods of persecution so odious and cruel against persons and things to us so dear and sacred, we must love them with a special love born of mercy and of compassion.

[Carl Dahl]

And the non compassion Catholics, non Christians will fixate on stuff like this and say, well, you're just creating the conditions for the future. It doesn't matter. You cannot. There, there's, there's no scenario. Well, let me rephrase the. The path that the Spanish took is very understandable given their religion, unfortunately, you know, but, but I'll add, but I'll add the unfortunate outcomes that we see in the present. Doesn't you know that religious sentiment doesn't preclude working harder than they did to establish the conditions to maintain what they created. It was, it was a failure of imagination and looking to the future and still giving people, quote, unquote choices when they could have directed them better to make better choices. Just an observation.

[Pete Quinones]

At the end of the month, in a pastoral letter entitled the Two Cities, Bishop Plaidaniel of Salamanca, in the heart of this nationalist zone, glorified the recent martyrdoms of bishops, priests, monks, virgins and children and declared that Christian civilization and its bases, religion, fatherhood, fatherland and family, must be defended against those without God and against God. God and specifically called the war a crusade, as Bishop Olakia of Pamplona had done the first the previous month. The Carlis above all had seen the war from the beginning as a crusade and essentially nothing else. Their commitment to it remained so complete as to be a marvel to all who observe them, not for them. The disquiet and even exasperation with which some Spanish nationalists greeted Pope Pius XI's caution against excess and hatred of the enemy in his September 14 allocution to the Spanish refugees. On September 10, the Carlist nationalist war Hunta issued a statement firmly asserting Carlist opposition to every form of totalitarianism, including fascism. The new state to be established in Spain, they said, should be limited to essential functions that would not interfere with the just and necessary freedom of the people.

[Carl Dahl]

And where people get confused about that is that they're still talking about essentially a thousand year old system with which they were happy, which would be called fascism today, which was essentially, you know, the white male patriarchs are the only people who have a say. You have an appeal through your social groups to, to justice based on their old fueros. It's, it's much like you'll find in the Magna Carta in terms of just class oriented, class oriented rights and privileges. Duties and privileges actually is more like it. And so you know, you have it. You have arbiters of justice through, through courts as well as the Church managing everything. So again, that would be fascism. They were specifically talking about a secular, a secular system as well as any kind of system that was un Spanish and uncathal Catholic.

[Pete Quinones]

In the course of the month of September, the Carlos Riketis secured the Basque border town of irun on the 4th, where heroic General Beorgy Legi fell mortally wounded in a last engagement with French communist machine gunners on International bridge. On the 13th, they took nearby San Sebastian, where they learned that their leading writer and theoretician, Victor Pradere, had just been murdered by his revolutionary captors. On the 16th, another raquete force commanded by Luis Redondo, took Ronda at the opposite end of Spain in Andalusia, bringing his victorious Tercio to Sevilla. A few days later, Redondo dedicated it to the Blessed Virgin Mary in a striking ceremony in the plaza before the residence of Cardinal Seguro, who blessed the men and urged them to carry on the crusade. Afterwards, de Tercio entered the great cathedral of Sevilla to venerate the image of the Blessed Virgin carried on the saddle of the canonized Crusader king of Castile, San Fernando iii, when he completed the reconquest of Sevilla from the Moors in the year 1248. At the Alcazar of Toledo, the relentless Bombardment by the besiegers 155 millimeter 6 inch guns began to show substantial effect. By the early days of September, with the north wall collapsing into rubble, the cannon were turned in force upon the northwest tower. On the second, two days later, it came crashing down with its crowning spire pointing east, east from an enormous heap of stones toward the gorge of the Tagus, like a giant spear. Now the cannon, now the cannon were turned on the northwest tower, while attackers from the Santa Cruz Museum set fire to the already badly damaged Gobierno building, which finally burned down. That day. The revolutionary militia occupied it, but in small numbers. It was hardly a safe place to lodge. Late the following afternoon, the 5th, a brilliant counter attack from the Alcazar led by Captain Vela regained the ruined building, now little more than large pile of ash covered debris. On Sunday the 6th, another Nationalist airplane appeared overhead dropping aluminum containers. Two fell into the city and were picked up by the militia, but the third reached the Alcazar. It contained a letter from General Mola stating that the nationalists were advancing in both the north and south, and the Yagua's column had just taken Talvera de la Reina. But this heartening news soon met a grim counterpart. After an hour of listening at the floor of the Alcazar's lower cellar with his stethoscope, Engineer Lt. Barber reported to Moscudero that the enemy was digging not one tunnel into the fortress, but two. The excavation was making rapid progress and both tunnels must be expected to remain reach points directly under the Alcazar in about eight days. Largo caballero had not lost confidence in his newly appointed General Asencio. Despite his defeat near Talavera he sent him to Toledo to take command of the siege of Alcazar, with the instruction, once and for all, the Toledan nightmare must be ended. Asensio's first task was to establish better discipline. So far, the siege had mostly been conducted by militia, ardent and brutal, but largely untrained. The only Republican general involved had been Rike Elme for a few days at the outset of the siege in July, before he went up to the Guadarrama Passes, and then again for a few days at the beginning of August.

[Carl Dahl]

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[Pete Quinones]

went south to fight Yagweh, Asencio was a man of determination and ability, though widely suspected of lack of sympathy for the kind of men he mostly had to command in this war, an attitude he later firmly disavowed, though one would wish, for the sake of of a brave man's reputation, that it were true. In any case, Asensio was a formidable opponent, resolved to gain victory at last for the Republic. In the last fight at the Alcazar, the day after his arrival, the northwest tower fell under the incessant cannon fire, leaving only two of the lofty structures at each corner of the square fortress still standing. Horns brayed in triumph in the city, and the immense cloud of dust arising from the ruins covered the sun and coated every exposed surface in the fortress. At 10:30 in the evening of the 8th, Major Vincente Rojo, an officer serving the government of the Republic who had taught military history at the Alcazar Academy and so was personally known to Moscow. Moscardo hailed the Alcazar on a megaphone from the Plaza de Cappuccinos. It's so funny that that's the way that's pronounced, actually.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pete Quinones]

Capuchinos. On the opposite side of the fortress from the ruins of the gobierno and the two wreck towers. He asked for an hour ceasefire at 9 o' clock the following morning so that he might meet with Moscardo. After five minutes of consideration and consultation, Moscardo agreed. And do you guarantee my personal safety? Rojo asked. Moscardo's inner fire blazed up. Did this man question his word of honor? We are gentlemen here, he answered heatedly, not like your republican trash, you may have an hour. Largo Caballero had ordered Major Rojo to undertake these first negotiations with the defenders since the siege began, because the worldwide press attention now being given to the siege and the growing admiration for the magnificent courage of the defenders, even among many supporters of the Republic, made it desirable at least to try to get the women and children out before the mines were exploded in the tunnels. And as nearly everyone believed, they would totally destroy the Alcazar. In the morning of the 9th, Major RoJo presented terms in writing signed by the Defense Committee of Toledo, but obviously authorized by the communist premier. Freedom for the women and children. Trial by the People's Court. For all the fighting men in the garrison, the wives and children at the Alcazar were literally to purchase their lives with the lives of their husbands and fathers. For at this point, no reasonable man could doubt for a moment what the verdict of the People's Court on its defenders would be. The dark eyes burned in Moscardo's haggard face as he received this proposal. Quote. We are willing to let the Alcazar become a cemetery, he said between his two teeth, but not a dung heap. Then he wrote out his official answer on a scrap of paper, quoting. Concerning the conditions for the surrender of the Alcazar presented by the committee, it gives me great pleasure to inform you that from the last soldiers as a commander, they reject such said conditions and will continue to defend the Alcazar and the dignity of Spain to the end.

[Carl Dahl]

How great is it that the. Basically the medieval style, honor, culture, they would. They would have never behaved this way in the old days, you know, in terms of the what? The way they threatened to treat, you know, a honorably defeated enemy. You. You know, even a foreigner that's hated like there. There was always room for, you know, a gentlemanly, you know, surrender and letting people go. But in a quote, unquote, democracy, you know, it's slaughter to the last man. And here are these traditionalists saying, you know, with great diction and poetic language, that they're. That they would rather die. I mean, we were. We would prefer that it be a cemetery than a dung heap. By giving you your conditions, Major Rojo, which means red, which was their term for the. For the. The communists. So, yeah, great stuff, yeah.

[Pete Quinones]

Major Rojo felt a surge of sympathy and admiration for his old comrade in arms rise up and grip his throat when he entered. Moscardo had refused to shake his hand. Now he had turned his back on him and was walking toward the door of the office of the superintendent of the academy where they had met. Suddenly, Rojo cried out, is there anything I can do for you? Moscardo turned back, his expression unchanged, his voice unsoftened, utterly unyielding. He was a crusader who had lost his son and watched the blood of a hundred martyred priests redden the cobblestones of Toledo, the city of saints and Catholic kings. Yes, he said. Yes, he said, like steel on iron. You can send us a priest. We want nothing else from you. And he walked out of the room and closed the door behind him.

[Carl Dahl]

Look at this. This is the kind of competent person in. In the military that will be doing the things in a. In a theoretical future event, knowing, like, feeling shame and knowing that he's doing the wrong thing. But he took the coward's way of saying, well, you know, because of my normalcy bias, I'll stick with the government and probably cowardice as well, because he wasn't willing to stand up and assert himself, you know, like a man when the uprising happened. Because, again, normalcy bias. He's like. Like that's not normal. His government isn't behaving in a normal fashion. He probably thinks of himself as the only sane person there. And then this happens.

[Pete Quinones]

Some men who are in leadership position are just followers.

[Carl Dahl]

These are the choices that we have to make, will have to make, and we do. Every day you make small compromises. The. The earlier you. You stop making small compromises, the better your chances of not making big compromises.

[Pete Quinones]

Some of the officers of the garrison now crowded around Rojo, with whom. Whom most of them knew because he had taught there, trying to draw information from him about the plans of the procedures and the prospects for relief. He told them little, but he sensed. But they sensed his sympathy. Finally, one of them asked him to join them. Them. Rojo cast down his eyes and did not answer immediately. He made no indignant repudiation of the suggestion, no declaration of loyalty to the Republic. Eventually he said, if I did this very night, my wife and children in Madrid would be killed.

[Carl Dahl]

And he probably just realized that, yeah,

[Pete Quinones]

he left his pouch full of fine tobacco for them. And as he blindfolded, and as he was blindfolded, preparatory to be led out, he suddenly cried, viva Espana. When he reached the outer gate and the blindfold was removed, his escort saw that there were tears in his eyes. At that last moment before his departure, he bent over and murmured to Captain Aleman, standing beside him, for the love of God, keep hunting for the entrance to the mines. Inside, Moscardo was pacing a corridor an aisle. At an aide at his side. For a long time he was silent. Then he said, I just can't understand why a man of Major Rojo's integrity did not remain with us. The aide said nothing. Minutes later, Moscow burst out again. Do you think it would have been proper if I had shaken his hand? I wanted to do it, but I couldn't. At the post office, Rojo handed over to Major Luis Barcelo, head of the Defense Committee, the scrap of paper containing Moscardo's defiant reply to the surrender terms. Marcelo was a maximal revolutionary. He had been in charge of the execution of the nationalist officers captured at the Carabuncle barracks in Madrid in July, and at the end of the war was to fight his own commander, Colonel Sigismundo Casado, for days when ordered to surrender Madrid, until Casado captured and shot him. Flushing with anger as he read Moscardo's words, Barcelo lunged for the nearest telephone. Artillery batteries. Good. This is Major Barcelo. Fire night and day on the alcazar. Erase it. Leave no stone longer than my little finger. At 10:45 in the morning, the artillery fire resumed. At almost that very moment, the wife of one of the soldiers of the garrison, named Valero, gave birth to his first child on a table in the electrician's workshop. Workshop shop in the north cellar. He was named Restituto Alcazar Valero. The castle restored.

[Carl Dahl]

How great is that?

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. The next evening, at 10 o', clock, the besiegers of the alcazar sent another message by megaphone to the defenders. Major Rojo had arranged to honor Colonel Moscardo's one request. The next morning, a priest would visit them as they had asked. Canon Enrique Vasquez Camaraza was no ordinary priest formerly attached to the cathedral in Madrid. Once his title of canon, his reputation as one of the most progressive clergymen in Spain had saved him from the fate of hundreds of his brother priests. From the. From the fate of hundreds of his brother priests in the capital city. If he ever helped or interceded for any of them or expressed any regret for their faith fate. History has not recorded it. Approaching the Alcazar, where he was met by Major Barcelo, he exchanged a revolutionary clenched fist salute with the militia on the battle lines.

[Carl Dahl]

I. I prefer the open hand personally.

[Pete Quinones]

His instructions were to take advantage of every possible opportunity to persuade the garrison to surrender. At the bees, at the bizarre gate. Gate of the fortress cannon, Camarasa was met by Captain Sans de Diego, who had been acting in the place of A priest for the garrison since they had none. He had lost an eyes to a shrapnel wound suffered while conducting a funeral service. He conveyed Colonel Moscardo's word that Camarasa would not be harmed and would be allowed to leave within three hours. Then he blindfolded him and led him inside the building, where he took him roughly by the shoulders, shook him a little and stood, said, can you say mass? Frightened by the physical contact, Kamarasa muttered, all right, if you wish. Sensing his fear, one of the men standing nearby said with a twist of his lips, don't worry, it's only the crowd out there that murders priests. He's not a priest since I, I,

[Carl Dahl]

I, I. Rainbow flag outside.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, I'm not, I'm, I'm not allowed

[Carl Dahl]

to say that I am, I'm a prophet.

[Pete Quinones]

Thought. I'm not allowed to say that officially. Since Camarasa had just hailed, had just been hailed by the. That crowd out there that struck, that thrust, struck home. The defenders of the Alcazar of Jeleto were not fools. They knew very well what kind of priests would be the only priests allowed by the besiegers to visit them. Some of them surely recalled, for Spaniards knew, know their own extraordinary history vividly. How more than a thousand years before, King Pelayo, standing at Covandonga with his back literally to the wall, a giant rock wall, hundreds of feet high, ruling a realm 20 miles by 20, facing an empire that stretched from his valley to the borders of China, was urged by a bishop named Opas to surrender because his prospects were hopeless and he would enjoy many benefits alongside the Moors. And how Pele had answered him. Our hope is in Christ. This little mountain will be the salvation of Spain. Which it was. Here was the. Yeah, yeah. Here was the new bishop, Opas. And they intended to give him the same name Pelayo had given Opas, the same answer Pelayo had given Opas. But it was not for this that they had brought a priest into their stronghold. Camarasa was taken to meet Colonel Moscardo in his office. Major Rojo had known what manner of man he was dealing with. Camarasa did not. He began a monologue about the happy life in Madrid. Yes, it was true that all the churches were closed, but at least they were no longer being burnt down. Priests loyal to the government were quite safe. Why? His own house was protected by an anarchist guard. It was plenty of food and water. It's hilarious that he thinks this is going to appeal to. I know. I mean, this is this is just how clueless leftists are. Always have been. Oh, yeah, it comes to.

[Carl Dahl]

When it comes to partisans, I'm not affected by it.

[Pete Quinones]

The consent Moscardo felt must have been almost tangible, but it was contempt for the man combined, as only a true Catholic can combine it, with reverence for the office and the powers he held from Christ, despite collaborating with his enemies. Soon the Crusader commander had had more than enough of Camarasa's talk. Did you come prepared to confess us and celebrate Holy Mass? Moscardo demanded. That's all we want. Camarasa nodded dumbly. At the southeast corner of the cellar, an altar had been prepared, its platform covered with a rich carpet upon which the royal arms were stitched in purple and gold. The only light came from the dim and flickering animal fat lamps. The homily was Kamarasa's opportunity. He expounded at length on the hopelessness of their struggle. In a few days, if they did not surrender, the Alcazar would be blown to be bits and all of them with it. God would judge the men who allowed this to happen as the murderers of women and children who would die in the explosion. Hear this. I mean, this is just. But this right here. I mean, right wingers pick up on this.

[Carl Dahl]

Yes, exactly.

[Pete Quinones]

Will say like this, yeah, because they're.

[Carl Dahl]

Because they're libards for Trump.

[Pete Quinones]

He went on and on in this vein. Some of the women began to sob. Some of the men were shaken. He talked so long that he had no time to hear individual confessions, but could only give a general absolution. But he did finally say the Mass, baptized Restituto Alcazar Valero, and brought holy communions to the seriously wounded lying in the infirmary. Then he went again to Moscardo's office, asking to speak with him privately. He pressed the argument that he was sacrificing the women and children to his own stubbornness and vanity. Even if he would not surrender himself, he should let the women and children go. Surely they wanted to. No, Senor, Moscardo said then, his voice rising as Camarasa went on. No, senor. No, senor. Unable to penetrate the Crusader's armor, Camarasa now began implying that he was keeping the women and children in the Alcazar by force. Moscardo called in Carmen Romero de Salamanca, daughter of one of the principal officers and wives of the. Of a Civil Guard lieutenant of the. And. And wife of a Civil Guard lieutenant of the garrison, and told her this priest was saying that women of the Alcazar were being held there. Against their will. All the fires of the mothers and wives of men who fought 722 years to reconquer Spain for the infidel was her answer held here. That's a lie. I've talked with every woman in the Alcazar and all of them think as I did. Either we will leave here free with our men and children, or else we will die here with them into ruins.

[Carl Dahl]

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[Pete Quinones]

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[Carl Dahl]

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[Pete Quinones]

yeah. After that there was nothing more to be said. Moscardo coldly ordered Camarasa escorted out. Two weeks later, Kenan Vasquez Camarasa left Spain forever and showed up in France where he told the newspaper reporter that he had played no part in Spanish politics. Six months later in Paris, he wrote an article stating that his proposal to Moscardo to evacuate the women and children from the Arc Lazar was totally was entirely his own idea. Since Largo Caballero was known to have been trying hard to get the women and children out. This self serving declaration was, to say the least, open to serious doubt. Camarasa also said he admired the heroism of the defenders of the Alcazar. He survived the war in Nazi occupied France and died in 1946, despised by both sides. The ancient fate of traitors. But he had said the only Mass celebrated in the Alcazar of Toledo during all the days of its siege. And that is what men remembered for many years. Yeah, yeah. I mean, People have a lot to say. Like people Catholics. Look at your Pope. You don't think we know?

[Carl Dahl]

Oh, yeah, sure, yeah, absolutely.

[Pete Quinones]

Look at the history. I mean, there have been bad popes. We know. That's not the point. Let's see, where was I?

[Carl Dahl]

And the Alcazar will be remembered for a thousand years.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, let me see. But he said the only Mass celebrated. But he said the only Mass celebrated in the Alcazar of today, though, during all the days of its siege. And that is what men remembered for many years. So long as General Franco lived and ruled. The site was marked by a plaque in the cellar corner where the mass was said, reading, here the divine king visited our heroes. On September 13, the Chilean Ambassador obtained permission from the government to make a last attempt to persuade the defenders of the Alcazar to surrender. After five hours of argument, he induced Major Barcelona and his defense Committee to guarantee the lives of all the garrison if they surrendered for whatever their reluctant promise was worth. Forever. For whatever their reluctant promise was worth. It did not matter because Colonel Moscardo refused to receive the ambassador, believing that any further peace negotiations at this critical moment would break the morale of the garrison, shaken by the steady approach of the tunnels, which they had no way to stop. The next day, the two tunnels reached the walls of the Alcazar and the sounds of the miners could be heard by everyone beneath the cellar floor. No longer did Lt. Barber need his stethoscope. Moscardo moved everything away from this part of the cellar, strung barbed wire around it and set up a small chapel with the statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary at the edge of the wire. Outside, the militia chanted over and over, send out the women. It will soon be too late. Send out the women. It will soon be too late. On the 15th, a four hour bombardment of the Alcazar produced a long vertical split in the east wall. Five of the garrison were killed and four wounded, bringing its total casualties to more than 40 killed and over 200 wounded. During the bombardment, the defenders could clearly hear the miners enlarging the tunnels below them. Lt. Barber tried to make a countermine, but his men were too debilitated by the poor food and lack of sleep. Printing nearly two months to be able to make significant progress into the hard rock with no miners. Explosive charges available through the day of the 16th, small detonations continued in one of the mines, but none were heard from the other, causing Lt. Barber to conclude that it had been completed. About noon, nationalist bombers struck the city, showing the defenders they were not forgotten. That night, under the shadow of the impending detonation of the mines, Lieutenant Fernando Barrientos deserted. He was the only officer to desert the Alcazar during the siege. It did him no good. A militia patrol in the city picked him up, tried him on the spot, and shot him good. By sundown, September 17, all sounds of movement and activity under the Alcazar had ceased. The mines were ready, each of the two tunnels packed at its head with two and a half tons of tnt. Newsmen from all over the world encouraged to come by Largo Caballero's Government had gathered to see the explosion which would bring down the battered fortress.

[Carl Dahl]

Isn't that insane?

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. Good.

[Carl Dahl]

Think about it. There's no strategic value in capturing the Alcazar for the Republican government. It's strictly to just impose their will on them. They bring in, like, media from around the world to watch it get destroyed.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. It's just a symbol.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah, exactly.

[Pete Quinones]

That's what communists do. That's what radicals do. They have to destroy all your symbols.

[Carl Dahl]

This is your symbol. We're going to destroy it and destroy you. And this is what you get for defying us.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. Major Barcelo, fearing that a large part of the city might be damaged when the Alcazar was destroyed, was trying to evacuate all the remaining inhabitants, but many refused to go. Two attack columns were designated to strike the Alcazar 10 minutes after the explosion and overwhelm any surviving defenders. It was still summer on the high plains of Castile and the night was warm, especially in the cellars of the Alcazar, into which the day's heat had penetrated through the gaping holes left by the constant shellfire. In his windowless room in the center, Colonel Moscardo bent over his daily log of the siege, barely able to see it by the faint flickering light of the little lamp, fed only by the stinking fat of the horse they had killed that day for meat. Moscardo's tall, gaunt, bearded figure could have sat for one of the world famous portraits of Toledo supreme artist El Greco, with his strange elongated faces and forms. The. The guttering light threw the shadow of Moscardo's head and shoulders on the wall like some dying giant. He was totally alone. The Alcazar was deathly silent. Beneath his feet, five tons of high explosive waited for detonation. Moscardo had finished his entry in the log. His pen hovered above over the paper, and he lowered it to write one last sentence. All things possible having been done, we now commend ourselves to God. It was what he had told his son Louise to do in the face of certain death. Under the word he drew a thick

[Carl Dahl]

black line and it. Carol is such an excellent writer, but all this stuff is extremely well documented as having taken place. I just want to point that out.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. Having done all to stand, St. Paul had written to the Ephesians 830 years before the siege of the Alcazar of Toledo in 1936, Raymond of Toulouse, the supreme crusader who led his men to Jerusalem when all others had given up and took the holy city for Christ, his lord and king, by storm in the year 1099, had suffered mortal wounds when a burning roof fell on him him in Castile, in Castle Pilgrim, which he had built under siege by the Muslims. Presuming he reached the the heaven he sought, perhaps Raymond of Toulouse asked God that night for the lives of Jose Moscardo and his Crusaders. At 6:18 in the morning, all firing on the Alcazar stopped. Everyone inside and outside it knew what that meant. The next 13 minutes crawled by unleadened fear feet. At 6:31, the mine on the southwest side of the Alcazar exploded with a thunderous roar. Heard in Madrid, 40 miles away, the southwest tower, 100ft high, rose up toward the sky like a rocket, then crashed to earth in a gigantic stone avalanche. A nearby truck was hurled 500ft into the air. Its engine tore loose from the truck body and fell through the roof of a house. Half a mile away, the whole city of Toledo disappeared from view in an enormous rolling cloud of black smoke. At 6:45, the main attack column, headed by 600 picked assault guards, charged from Zoar Square Square, shouting we've killed the dogs. At them. Where the long defended walls had been, they found great mounds and mountains, masses of rubble, looking for ways through them, sure of their victory. Suddenly they heard. Suddenly they heard a totally unexpected sound. Ahead of them, the high, clear notes of a bugle. The 15 year old trumpeter of the Alcazar was sounding the call to arms within. The shock and deafening roar must have been, for the first minute or two, totally paralyzing. But then, in every part of the cellars where the defenders had stayed that terrible night, they opened their eyes, looked around them and saw that they were still alive. And so were almost all of their companos and even a newcomer, a baby girl delivered immediately after the explosion and named Jose Josefa de Milagra of the miracle. The enormous adamant adamantine crag upon which Salado was built had proved tougher than anyone had imagined, confining the effects of the explosion to the area immediately above the mine. A later count showed that only five of the garrison died in the explosion. And the second mine in the northeast quadrant never did go off. First scattered, then, growing to a crescendo, came shouts of Viva Cristo Rey.

[Carl Dahl]

Hail Christ the King.

[Pete Quinones]

The officers, knowing an attack must come quickly, ordered the bugler to blow and sent the men to their posts, or to where their posts had been, since no one yet knew what was left outside. Rushing through the courtyard, some of the defenders stopped in shock and horror at the sight of what appeared to Be two severed heads in the middle of it. But they were not severed. They belonged to Teresa Gonzalez, the meat dresser, and her husband, buried up to their necks in rubble, but miraculously only slightly injured. Teresa cried heroically to them, them don't bother with me. The Reds are attacking. And so that's. I mean, this is all footnoted. Yeah. And so the defenders ran past her to their posts below in the cellars next to the smoking crater where the mine had exploded. Several of the women hurried to the shrine of the Blessed Virgin Mary, where Colonel Moscardo had. Which Colonel Moscardo had put there. Her statue had been blown over, but was only slightly chipped. They knelt in prayer to thank her for their deliverance. Soon Moscardo himself joined them. There above, the revolutionary assault force, still struggling to penetrate the piles of rubble, saw the defenders appear above them, sighting and firing their rifles with deadly accuracy, hurling grenades down the jumbled slope of stone. Amazed by their survival, the attackers hesitated and fell back, waiting for reinforcements, while the defenders swiftly began building battle barricades. Nothing was easier with rock fragments everywhere to cover the openings in the rubble. When a tank emerged from behind the Santa Cruz Museum rumbled across Zucadovo Square and smashed the iron gate of the Alcazar, knocking over a truck beyond, loaded with stones. The defenders responded with one of their few bombs. The tank was undamaged, but it start. But it startled crew backed it away. In any case, it was not clear clear that there was room for it to get through the rubble. Meanwhile, the other column of attackers was ambushed by three defenders with a machine gun and stopped in its tracks. But a group of about a dozen men found a blind spot, entered the Alcazar on the second floor from outside, and opened fire on the defenders below, raising a red banner on a girder. The effects of the explosion had left the defenders no access to the second floor. But if they could somehow dislodged these men from their apparently impregnable position, the Alcazar was doomed. Lt. Benito Gomez Olivares, commanding in the room below, took charge. Its ceiling, which. Which was the floor of the second story, had several large holes in it due to shellfire and the mine explosion. But they were 25ft above him. The longest ladders in the Alcazar were barely half that length. Gomez Oliver. Lash sets of two ladders together, set them against several of the holes and led his men in climbing them. The ladders never designed for such use, twisting and bending under their weight. But they stayed up. Gomez Alevares and his men emerged shooting on the second floor, killed all but two of the attackers, and tore down the red flag from the girder. It was 10:20 in the morning of September 18, and the Alcazar of Toledo still held out in their Fury. The besiegers fired 272 shells during the rest of that day, the most of any day in the siege. The cannonade continued on into the night. Moscardo and Lt. Barber surveyed the damage. The explosion had been concentrated in one place, and most of the fall of stones had been in the west, away from the interior. There was little damage underground outside the area, directly over the end of the tunnel, which Moscardo had enclosed in barbed wire. That night, the defenders were served a special festive meal, luxurious for them, of rice, beans, and sausage. It was much cooler. There was a touch of autumn in the air. Maybe we should stop right there.

[Carl Dahl]

What a crazy story, huh? It's. It's when you read. When you read the general histories and they talk about it, it. They kind of, A lot of times they kind of make light of how legendary the. The Alcazar is to the right and how, how much of a big deal they make about it. But when you actually go and tell the story, you see how heroic it was, and you see, it's the perfect illustration of what the struggle is over. It's. It's people who 100% believe in what they're doing from a faith perspective, and people who 100% believe in what they're doing from a hatred perspective.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, yeah. You know, and, you know, it's. It's like historians have said, there's no way you survive a Reconquista. You don't fight it for 700 years unless something holds you together. Yeah. And what holds you together is your Catholicism and, you know, your faith and your, you know, in your family and

[Carl Dahl]

your people and willingness to die like a martyr to move that line three feet to the south so that in 20 years, your children can move it three miles to the south and so on.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, yeah. People just don't think about that anymore.

[Carl Dahl]

And that's how we have to start thinking.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, yeah. It's. When you talk about, like, localism, people just don't get it.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah.

[Pete Quinones]

People don't get what. What you're saying when you start, when you're talking about that, you know, they didn't try to take back the country all at once. It was little by little, you know, province by province.

[Carl Dahl]

You have to secure those toll holds or you have nothing, you know, and it's it's great to network with people around the country. It's great to have those connections while you. While you have them. But it doesn't really mean anything unless you secure your local area. And you do that by being pro social, being in a place where you can move the needle, networking with people like you. And even times that's people that don't think they're like you or you might think they're not like you, but they're like enough. You don't have to be a spurg and tell them all your wildest fantasies. You can get a lot done by just being a good neighbor and building from there and turning it into real things.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. Social capital concern is a civilizational capital really quick. And at this point, at this point it has to. All right, well, I appreciate you doing this with me. Let people know where they can find your stuff. I hear you have a really nice like cool T shirt that you just came out.

[Carl Dahl]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So carldall.substack.com is my main headquarters. Even though I post in various areas, I'm on. I'm on Twitter. I. You know what? I think I need to reconnect my Twitter account to my substack so people can see that there, because that's for shit posting. But the, the sub stack is where I do most of my. My real, my real writing. I'm trying to put articles of interest, mostly still focused on the Spanish Civil War up. I have a link to my little shirt spread store from there via an article. I have a nice. There's this, there's this famous quote quote that General Francisco Franco repeated several times in various forms. But it, I was, I was puzzling on how to. How to describe it. And it's. You've seen the meme where it says there will be no communism. And the real quote is. All I know is wherever I am, there will be no communism. So I have the original. I'm basically made like a fash wave edit where he's wearing, you know, razor sunglasses or whatever they call them pit vipers. Generic, non. Branded, non patent and trademark violating images with the original Spanish quote with a nice, nice logo there. And it's, it's already. People are already buying it and I'm like, I gotta order some for myself, so. And myself son. So yeah, it's pretty spicy, but yeah, that's the main thing. Author of Faction with the Crusaders. I have a, the, A sample. This, the first chapter of the book pinned on my substack also. You can get it On Amazon. It's as you, as you can tell, the. The autism required to write a nearly 500 page novel. Large, you know, pretty big. Pretty big book with to the level of detail required to be accurate historically and such. Took years of research. Last Crusade, the way I always put it, is what unlocked the door for me for having a personal connection to the Spanish Civil War so that I could write about real characters was Peter Kemp's Mine were of Trouble. But the Last Crusade by Warren Carroll is where I took the most like spiritual inspiration from it and told as many of those kinds of stories as I could. Because to me that's where everything is. It's, you know, you go in as a naive adventurer, you become a crusader when you see the crusaders around you and what motivates them. So the Sacred Heart of Jesus patch is on, on mine and my son's plate carriers for, for a good reason, because that's what the, the Rakutes would do. Their mothers and sweethearts and grandmothers and sisters would embroider them on their shirts that they bought themselves to prepare for war and marched into almost certain death because of this spirit, it. Which animated them. So I would just urge everyone here, you know, like Pete said, the Spanish Civil War is the, the real story of the 20th century. It is also, you know, elevator pitch wise, probably the most analogous situation to what we face, at least in a way that you can wrap your head around, around Yugoslavia times, Rwanda is, is very scary. But honestly, I feel like that's. The Spanish Civil War is where it's at. And like Pete said, the good guys won. So you have to understand that to understand the 20th century and you know, all the, the lies that were told about that or the misunderstandings or the spins and you know, really what's going on as people are awakening to these things. You need to know these real histories and you need to realize what we're facing. And then my final point in my elevator pitch for why the Spanish Civil War is important is because it tells you about how the right actually won. It was no individual monolithic thing that did it. It was the. The following gay it. They played an important part, but not nearly as big a one as they're credited with. The Carlos recites played a massive role in it. And that was literally a civilian militia spun up in just a couple of years. And then of course the, the military, the military elements and their uprising, you know, and what it was was it was a coalition of people who really focused on what connected them more than what differentiated them. From other people in terms of what they wanted for a future for their country and their people. And it's really important that we think that way instead of spurging out. It's important to be accurate. It's important to have correct information and to make sure that people have that correct information. But there's a certain time when you have to let bygones be got, bygones, and focus on what you have in common and unite. So thanks a lot, Pete. Thanks for what you're doing here. It's. It's a great series, folks. Listen to all of them, share it with friends. It's the way Pete is doing this is very accessible for people, and I think it's really important. So thanks for what you're doing, Pete.

[Pete Quinones]

I appreciate it, Carl. Thank you. And, yeah, till the next time.

[Carl Dahl]

Thanks, man.

[Pete Quinones]

I want to welcome everyone back to the Picanones Show. Carl Dahl is back. More Spanish Civil War on deck. What's going on, man?

[Carl Dahl]

Doing well. Happy Martin Luther King Day Jr. And Inauguration Day Day. Spicy day.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, yeah. It's been interesting so far. Yeah. The. But nothing ever happens, so.

[Carl Dahl]

Nothing. Nothing ever happens. Last time we recorded, I. I just realized this this morning is. We recorded the. The day after the election. So we're on it. We're on a pattern, man.

[Pete Quinones]

We're on some kind of schedule here, so. All right, so I think last time we talked, I. I mentioned. What the hell's his name? Finelli. Yeah. And, well, you were like, okay, well, let's put something together. And so you are here to talk about the other guys.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah. So, you know, one thing that people have pointed out is that I always, just. When I speak about the Spanish Civil War, despite my knowledge on all the various groups and subgroups, I always just call them libtards. And I do that deliberately. And why do I do that deliberately? Because I am very well versed in these people. I've been, you know, around their ideas for a long time. I'm tired of them, and I want to dismiss them, however, so it's useful to explore what they actually believed. But I'm also, you know, not going to enshrine them with too much legitimacy. Although, in fairness, I will say that there are. There are good critiques that you will find from the left. Like one of the things, Pete, that keeps coming up when. When you and Thomas talk, because you guys are both actually knowledgeable about the subjects that you talk about, you're not doing the, you know, the James Lindsay of the world. You know, you're woke because you know, because Marx said something ever so slightly similar. Or we're going to trick everyone because we're going to, you know, quote Hegel and Marx was a Hegelian and therefore you're a communist. If you publish something, it's really retarded. And we don't want to be retards. We want to be very well educated in reality and we don't want people to be, to be conned by the, the fake framing of whether it's a leftist position or it's a, you know, to repeat ourselves, a mainstream, you know, conservative or, you know, really liberal psyop operation. So we want to know what kind of libtards the various apostles of atheistic materialism were in Spain when we talk about the Spanish Civil War. So this scene here is cntfai. You can tell by the red and black, the classic anarchist colors. This is CNT FAI in Barcelona right after they suppressed the military rising and they began their, their little revolution. You'll notice the long 1893 pattern Spanish mausers and not the later slightly shorter 1916 carbines, which are great rifles by the way. So I'm going to proceed and we're going to learn a little bit about the ideological roots and some of the, the standout folks in Spain. Why did Spain, why was Spain so heavily anarchist compared to other parts of the world when they had these various uprisings? What are some of the tensions between the, the anarchist and Marxist positions plus the kind of mainstream liberal groups? And, and we're also going to address some of the kind of foundational concepts that you need to understand when you're looking at leftist critiques and factionalism. What do these things actually mean? I will continue to dismiss them as libtards, but I also want to prove here that I know what I'm talking about and I highly encourage everyone else to, to examine, you know, what your enemies say. So, so I'm really leaning into two primary sources here in this little talk if you want to understand like the top level ideas that are coming from here. These are two great books. They're both available in English. I just grabbed the Spanish version Spanish edition title for the second book. The Spanish Anarchist by Murray Bookchin has the bulk of, of what you need here. There's other material that I sourced for this, especially some of the more niche elements of the conversation that we'll get into.

[Pete Quinones]

One of the good things about reading Bookchin is, is that he's sympathetic.

[Carl Dahl]

He is. And he, he, he also, if you're looking at his name and you're saying, hey, I noticed something. You'll you. You were accurately identifying something. But he's sympathetic.

[Pete Quinones]

Oh, as someone who came out of libertarianism and narco capitalism and has studied agorism, I know exactly who Murray Buckchin is.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah, he's a very intelligent guy. There's a really interesting thing too. Since you're educated on this subject as well. You'll notice that there was a huge lull in anarchist oriented material until really the very end of the 60s or really it took off in the early 70s when there was kind of a revitalization and there's a bunch of arguments behind why this, this pattern happened. But frankly a lot of it was during the Cold War. The left either went anti communist leftist or Marxist slash Marxist, Leninist, Maoist, right. And then in the kind of post 60s and I suspect a lot of it has to do with kind of 1968. You know, post 1968 there was a big shift into people exploring anarchism and a bunch of it also was kind of the evolution of what we know about the counterculture in the 60s and 70s that where there's a fair bit of that, but there was a real serious academic interest in anarchism and historical anarchism at this time and re examining things not just through the lens of the, you know, communism versus capitalism discussion. I don't know if you have anything to add there. Ready to put a little spin on your day? Then check out Chumba Casino's new online social casino game. Ryan Seacrest 10k ways. It's free and packed with 10,000 words. Ways to play [e-mail] no purchase necessary. VGW Group Void we're prohibited by law. CTS and CS21 plus sponsored by Champacasino no, no.

[Pete Quinones]

Okay, keep going. Great.

[Carl Dahl]

So one of the neat things about the anarchists is that they actually follow through with, with what they believe. And what you'll find is that if there's an anarchist book that's in English or even other languages, you'll find probably be able to find it online for free because they're giving it away. And if you're buying it, it's because you're paying to print it. I raised my hand and acknowledged that I was a person who used to go to an anarchist bookstore when I was an edgy teen. And I was exploring these things. And what I would say is anarchist Library, libcom and of course archive.org have a lot of great material. The the Communist, Libertarian Communist and Anarchist websites have tons of great material on the topic of the Spanish, the Spanish Civil War and just the general topics of anarchism, communism, etc. And all the, all the debates. You can find all this stuff online for free. Don't pay money for it, just go out there and read it.

[Pete Quinones]

It.

[Carl Dahl]

There's a lot of great material. Marx is actually extremely interesting and he has some very good critiques and we're going to talk a little bit about that here. I'll be talking about other books that you guys can check out or just topics to start with. The Spanish Labyrinth by Gerald Brennan is another book that is a sympathetic and very interesting book about the, the environment of Spain before the war. Especially like the, the 19th century because really all of, all of these things when you're talking about these, these movements, you have to understand, you know, the causes and conditions as I always point out. And they both do a really good, good job of exploring that. Bookchin really leans into one of the main narratives of the, you know, when you look at how did Spain develop this super deep rooted anarchist, anarchist core? And that legend is around what we'll call Finelli's mission. So in October 1868, a tall, heavily bearded Italian revolutionary arrived in Barcelona by train. Giuseppe Finelli was a. We'll look a little more into who he was in just a moment, but all you need to know is that he was financed and directed by Mikhail Bakunin who was. I'm going to pronounce it that way, I know I'm probably butchering it, but he was the standout representative of the anarchist faction in the International Working Men's association, which was also known as the First International. So Finelli made contact with Spanish radicals that were known to this faction. Even though he did not speak Spanish, he spoke French and Italian. And from this contact arose the largest and most consequential anarchist movement in history. So 1868 is a very important year. There's a reason that this happened in 1868. To date, Spain and Portugal were seen as the most isolated and least contacted parts of Europe in the 19th century. Karl Marx himself stated, there's perhaps no country except Turkey so little known to and so falsely judged by Europe as Spain. Now why 1868? So let's look at a super quick timeline as to what happens to create this environment where the, the prominent anarchists in the world are understanding that they need to reach out to Spain. So French revolution happens in 1789. France is right next to Spain, right? So while this is a huge deal In America, in world history and American history, because of our alliance with, with France, as it coincides with our own war for independence in the early years of, you know, our young nation. This really set a lot of things off, because the Peninsular War, the war in Spain and Portugal that happened 1807-1814, was really critical in terms of establishing the base for the kind of foment that was taking place in 1868. There was a fair bit of assistance by the liberalizing forces in Madrid, like the bureaucrats and the, we may say, petite bourgeois or bourgeois elements in the government who were Frenchified is one of the terms that they would use. They followed French, you know, styles and fashions and, you know, ideology and everything. And they wanted to liberalize Spain. There was an element of this that at play when they essentially placed a new king in the throne, creating a war that involved the Spanish and the French and the British to retake the country of Spain from French dominion. Because Napoleon's brother was made king. There was constitution that was instituted in 1812 with liberalizing elements that essentially got tossed out when there was a restoration with Spanish victory, but it still left an imprint that was always referred back to for the rest of the century. The first Carlist War took place in 1833-1840. And this is again traditionalists fighting against the central force, the central government's liberals. So the fueros, which is the old rights and privileges particularly relevant in the northern parts of the country and Home Rule, were abolished tactically where it would be least disruptive and would help the central government the most through the rest of the century. So first in Navarre, via the Compromise act of 1841, after the Carlists were defeated. So the idea was, you know, this is one of those things that you and I have talked about, Pete. There's the traditional Spanish rights to kind of self government in their own provinces and districts, but this allows rebellion against the central government. And so this was abolished in Navarre, which was again one of the Carlist homelands, although they were also huge in Basque country also, and a fair bit in Catalonia. So it was the Second Carlist War, 1846-1849, because they were not happy with this arrangement. They wanted, you know, a full restoration of their rights as well as to defend against the early liberal, liberalizing influences from the. From the government. This coincides with Europe's revolutions of 1848, which really change everything in terms of propagating all of these liberalizing ideas around the world, especially in the West. And also another thing that Happens is when these revolutions fail all around the world, whether it's Germany, whether it's France. And when I say Germany, you know what I mean? It's in the German principalities in various areas. So all these people have to go to different areas to hide out and a bunch end up up in Spain and other parts of the world. And here and here.

[Pete Quinones]

I mean, they fought, they came here, they became mercenaries in a lot of places. They fought in this, they sp, they fought in our civil war.

[Carl Dahl]

I have, it's funny, I, I had a bunch of German ancestors come here in the 1840s and at one point I was like, I gotta look at these dates again because I'm a little nervous. And I was happy to see 1841 and 1842. I was like a few because it certainly, it certainly wouldn't comport what I know of them. You know, in the businesses that they were in, they were just, they wanted to get away from that kind of stuff, obviously, but they weren't revolutionaries themselves. Phew, wipe the brow. But yeah, so it was, it was a huge spread of all these ideas that were associated with that. We'll talk about what some of those ideas are shortly. Again, this is a super high level survey. So really another critical foundational element, especially coming after the Revolutions of 1848. I'm talking in extreme shorthand here. I definitely encourage people to read more material about this. Check out Pete and Thomas's shows about Marx. You'll get a lot of information about that that I'm. This is total shorthand. The First International, which is the International Working Man's association, is founded in 1864. And what this is is a group of, you know, international radicals, but mostly from just a couple of countries in Europe who start saying we need to not only network internationally, but we need to start establishing ties with one another to actually do things. And we need to kind of determine what our ideology is going to be. And immediately different factions start forming. We'll talk about that shortly. One of the factions here reaches out to Spain because in 1868, Queen Isabel II was overthrown and what is described, described as the Glorious Revolution, which ushers in the Cesenio Democratico, which is a democratic or revolutionary, depending on who you talk to, six year period. So the Cesenio Democratico was a huge shift in Spain because it was the very first time that a system was, was developed which lasted for the next several decades. That was really critical in forming kind of the political nullification of a lot of the revolutionary energy. While Also definitely moving the needle in terms of liberalizing influences through the formal government. It was a very open period with the least formal repression of ideas and organizations, political organizations, radical organizations in this initial period. Now what happened was the Conservative and Liberal parties worked out a system that the largest establishment parties developed, what they called the peaceful turn Alterno pacifico. It was informal, but it was agreed upon where they would determine in advance the results of a general election. So when, when, when you have a, when you have a kind of constitutional monarchy, you have the monarchy, which is the symbol of order and continuity, but then you have the Cortes, which is where the, the various political parties do their business and actually run the government. And they worked out this system where they would just alternate being in power with one another. So this had a, again, like I said, a kind of de. Radicalizing effect where it pushes the extremes to the edges. And really fundamentally what it would look like is if you go to, let's say, any, any site or Wikipedia and you look at who the prime minister of Spain was, you'll notice there were just a handful of generals and politicians that were just switching off, and there were several people who were prime minister five or six times in this period, going all the way into the 20th century.

[Pete Quinones]

So can I ask you a question about the cartoon that's up there? Yes. The guy up top has interesting physiognomy.

[Carl Dahl]

I Honestly, I'm not 100% sure. I can't remember who he was, but he was essentially a. He was a little worm. I don't think he has that physiognomy because I believe that he was a genuinely. Well, now that I think of it, him being an actual Spanish politician wouldn't necessarily do anything, but it was a. Here's our solution. And moray and Mora. You know, these are, these are representatives of liberals and conservatives switching off between each other, but also speaking from, you know, saying the exact same thing and, and running the system and that this is the big solution by Mr. Political Operator, but I'll check that out. That's. That is an interesting observation. So into this environment comes Giuseppe Finelli. He was a Neapolitan Italian Republican. So, so remember, Italy was not unified until later in the 19th century. So he was from Napoli and he was a veteran of the 1848 Revolution in Italy. He was a veteran of Garibaldi's Sicilian Campaign of 1860. Remember, Garibaldi was a, was seen as a great unifier of the nation of Italy. Finale was a member of an organization called Young Italy, which was one of the primary Italian nationalist organizations that Finelli was a honcho of. Mazzini is another name that you will recognize associated with young Italy if you ever dive into it. It's really interesting because again, they're unifying the country, but there's all these various political channels. So he also participated in a Polish uprising in 1863, just as a radical revolutionary. And again, who was Poland fighting against? Consider the third Italian war of independence against Austria in 1866. So remember, for Italy and Austria, Austria, Hungarian empire. If, if you look at anything in the 18th and 19th century, you'll see that a lot of Italy was under the boot of the Austrians and they had a lot of influence through the rest of the peninsula because of that. A lot of commercial sway and finances. I'm far from an expert. I need to stop talking about it right now because I'll start saying dumb things right away. But that's where a lot of the struggle was in Italy. And Finelli was a veteran of this. And again, he had been a revolutionary for several decades at this point in time. He was elected to Italian parliament in November 1865. And this is kind of, it's going to sound quaint now, but as an Italian parliamentarian, he could travel by train for free in multiple nations, not just Italy. So he, he could travel all over Italy for free. There were some, there was some arrangement where he could go through France essentially for free. And so he became. This gave him a huge leg up for spreading the word. He tied in with Bakunin at some point, meeting him in a summit in Italy in the 1860s and possibly having corresponded with him for a while before that. Because again, here's this Republican, you know, political leader who's fighting against the kind of regressive elements, you know, in, in his thinking in Italy and especially against the Austrians to try to free his country. And radicalizing continuously through this process. And ideas were getting more and more and more radical in Europe at the time. So he ties in with Bakunin through the IWA International Working Men's association and is charged with proselyzing their libertarian vision in Spain. So again, he spoke only French and Italian, but the. All the. This, the records and testimonies of Spanish anarchists who met him said that, you know, they were able to figure out through his passion, like, almost like an electric rod, the spirit of what he was saying was communicating with him. Them.

[Pete Quinones]

Well, what would you, how would you define libertarian here? Because, you know, libertarian nowadays pretty much means globalist, Free market. Globalist.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah, that's a good, that's a good point. So libertarian originally meant essentially anarchists anarchism with personal freedom versus collective anarchism, especially as it relates to people voluntarily organizing themselves as well as having a little. There's more of an allowance for personal property to a certain degree. And we'll get it, we'll get into where some of these arguments were coming from. But that was the basics, the basic idea. It's not centralized, it's not based on, you know, a temporary state as Marx advocated, and it's not necessary. There's a lot of arguments when it comes down to it with anarchists about, which is why there's so many kind of versions of them. And we'll talk a little bit about where those ideas come from. But broadly that's, that's the basic idea is that it's, it's, it springs forth from an individual person. It isn't, it isn't theoretical, it isn't philosophical, it isn't historical and scientific. It's a, an individual spirit longing to be free.

[Pete Quinones]

Gotcha.

[Carl Dahl]

So this is a really critical, you know, point to make, which is that the International Workingmen's association, which again established in 1864 and ended depending on, you know, de facto and de jure 1872 or 1876. And so again, this is a post 1848 International Congress of the broad left, broad coalition of mutualists, anarchists, socialists, secularists, republicans and various radical leftists. So founded 28 September 1864 in London by an international group which was largely British because it was in London, but there were French, a big French faction, Irish, Polish, Italian and German delegates. And one of those delegates from Germany was then obscure journalist emigre Karl Marx. He, he was very obscure. In 1864 he volunteered to draft documents and help put together the formal plan. And this is really important because he became automatically extremely influential. Everyone was like, oh, he's, he's excited to put together, you know, all the boring details that other people, other people wanted to talk to each other about, like abstractions. And Karl Marx says, I'll put together the formal program, which gives him a huge leg up. So the first thing he drafted was the address and the provisional rules of the International Working Men's Association.

[Pete Quinones]

So

[Carl Dahl]

they developed parameters out of the gate initially for trade unions and defined what we see as like progressive government policy on education and labor regulations. So there was a pragmatic element of what they were doing and then there was like a more philosophical considerations taking place plus an awful lot of politics Taking place internally like how would they relate to the rest of the world. So there was a split. Almost immediately the the fractures started showing. But it wasn't a formal split between the statists which was essentially the. The Marxists who believed in a you working with the state as well as, you know, post revolution there being an element of a state before they achieve, you know, a utopian anarchist scheme. And the anarchists who are like we have to be principled and we're only going to fight for what we want, which is the annihilation of the state and no replacement of the state with another state State. So that formal split really happened in 1870 and then there was a full schism by 1872. The symbol at right is the Spanish anarchist leaning chapter of the International Working Men's association which they called the Spanish Regional Federation of the iwa. Its initials were F R E A I T. The very first congress in Spain was in Barcelona. Again with that nucleus of people who had engaged with finale. And so going into this iwa, the Spanish representatives of with the iwa their formal people were almost entirely anarchists at this point when finally went around the country and some others went around the country as well. But the. Hey guys, it's Ryan. I want to tell you about my new pastime, Chumba Casino. Chumba Casino has been around for over a decade delivering the most fun you can have online play social casino style games for free, anytime, anywhere. So sign up@chumba casino.com Purchase necessary loss in terms of conditions 21 plus their anarchist message really resonated with real radicals. And again remember this is a period where the more state oriented and progressive, you know, slow evolution type liberal and socialists are seeing working in that system as being the way that they're going to get what they want. Whereas the IWA is outside the system and the anarchists are the biggest faction by far in Spain. So how quickly did they grow again? 1869, 1870 there's this formal organization and then by 1873 there were 29,000 formal dues paying members in Spain. There were never more than 200 members of this, of this organization in Madrid which is the seat of government of Spain. So there were anarchist factions in Madrid, but Madrid was primarily non anarchist in in terms of what the program was for, how people were seeing the future. This is also considered. This Spanish group that's associated with IWA is considered the predecessor to the, to the cnt which is the largest anarchist organization and political party and labor union in Spanish history. So you've got aids AKA the International alliance of Social Socialist Democracy. So we were talking about Finale. Right, right. And how influential he was and how much his message resonated with the Spanish. Finelli was just a member of an 18 man nucleus of anarchists that were a faction within the IWA headed by Binin. And they sent many, many representatives to Spain because of the revolutionary foment taking place there and because they wanted to head off the Marxist tendency within the IWA at the past. So it was not only to get buy in in Spain, but it was also to recruit formally people in Spain who would want to engage with the IWA as well as they knew, with contacts that they had, you know, through these established networks that had been developing especially since 1848, between Spain and France in particular, but just the, the general international socialist and, and leftist bent as it was maturing. And so this was their opportunity. So they actually sent quite a few people into Spain. And this is a photograph here, probably taken in Madrid with Giuseppe Finelli right here. Fernando Garrido Aristide Ray, Eli Recluse and Giuseppe Finelli, like I said, and then Jose Maria Orense. So these are a couple of Spanish representatives who become very important to this organization in the, in the Spanish, the Spanish group associated with the iwa. So there were, among the travelers, there were several. Oops, sorry. There were several Italians and a Russian, Leon Meshnikov and Elias, Elias Recluse was a Frenchman. So it's a very interesting group of people. But they. Recluse understood some Spanish. He'd been in contact with some Iberian dissidents for some time. And this is really interesting when you look at some of the, the records. Recluse wrote a history of their trip at the time, which I believe is not available in English. I wasn't able to find a copy of it. I've seen translations of it. I think it's only in French, in Spanish, although I could be conflating it with something else. But it's very interesting because they talk about these other folks, whereas most of what you hear when you read about this, this trip is just about Finelli's mission. So as finally was working with this core group of people in Barcelona and Madrid and a few other places, these other guys were spreading all over Spain and they were even participating in some of the actual uprisings that were taking place, particularly in the, in the south of the country around Andalucia. So Recluse had been a member of the International Revolutionary Brotherhood, which was a, you know, this kind of foundational group that, that Bakunin was associated with since 1865. So his book is called Recluse Impressions of a Trip Through Spain. And so he was the one who identified these other foreign radicals and revolutionaries that were, that were part of this conversation. And it's interesting because apparently hardcore Spanish anarchists get annoyed by the focus on finale. It could be just, you know, you know what these spurts are like. I know more than you do. So they like to get passionate about it. So I thought I'd share that. That. So now let's talk a little bit about the history of the Internationals. Because when, when we talk about the Internationals they're really, really important in Marxism and anarchism. And this will kind of help with the continuity of, you know, we're Talking about the 19th century, but a lot of it is because of the results that, that end up later on in, in history in the 20th century. So the first international was kind of the label given to the International Workingman's association as I pointed out, created 1864. In 1872 it really split formally into competing anarchist and like state socialist internationals. And then it was essentially dissolved because of that faction factional split. 1889 was an attempt to get it back together again. The Second International saw the anarchists rematerialize as some people were trying to reconcile these groups with one another for various reasons. But the infighting was such that the anarchists were officially excluded in the 1893 Zurich Congress. The 1896 London Congress saw anarchists such as Erica Malatesta, who's a name that if you're familiar with anarchist history will sound familiar. He challenged their expulsion at the London Congress which was a failure. And so essentially at this point the, the Marxists were, were essentially running the show Alth. There were still non Marxist social state socialist groups still participating in the second or international nationalist sentiments which arose during World War I. Essentially saw the end of the Second International and then 1919 the Communist International was spun up again. This one was expressly Marxist and not only that, but was an organ of the Soviet Union proper. So it was more like Marxist Leninist, which is a. Something that I won't spend a ton of time on, but I know that you and you and Thomas have talked about it. So that's a, that's another. Again, listen to those shows folks. So you know, it sounds petty but it's, it's worth talking about the kinds of things that were going on in the IWA Congresses before this. The Spanish Mission in 1868, 1869 so the Geneva Congress of 1866 saw something that we will all be familiar with, which was the formal announcement that one of their primary goals would be to establish a universal eight hour work day day, which they were very successful at. This idea really came through the iwa. So when you see it around the world, you know, that's a thing that they accomplished. I'm not going to do the James Lindsay thing here. I think that that's a perfectly reasonable expectation. As a fan of the bundle of sticks approach with the axe head sticking out of the top, I, I think it's perfectly reasonable to take you know, these kinds of ideas and you know, adopt them in a pro social fashion. Take that Vivek. So then in 1867 in Lassanne, which is in Switzerland, very pretty area in French speaking Switzerland, there was the goal of a free compulsory secular education which again was largely based on the, the Prussian model. But we saw this spread around the world. Consider at the time, like in Spain, the free education that was available was from the church. It was not compulsory either. So people could just bail whenever. And this was again instituted specifically explicitly as a secular compulsory state run thing because that would put the libtards in charge, right? Like obviously you, you educate the people, you, you know, you control their ideas total, totally in line with a Marxist position and effort. But there were plenty of other people that agreed with it, including the United States government. And then another one that's kind of interesting. The very first time that they made a stated a goal that was for collective ownership of anything was state collective ownership of transportation companies. I was the first formal support for the principle of collective ownership. So in 1868 in Brussels, serial, excuse me, serious conflicts arose regarding methods and goals. And so when you look at all the different versions of socialism and anarchism and communism, it's all about like methods and goals. And so there was a statement for global solidarity and a formal anti war stance again. And this arose in the context of pending conflict between France and Germany. It's 1868, right? So what kind of debates took place? So the, the formal statement about this anti war stance is explicitly and, and I quote, the congress of the International Workingman's association assembled at Brussels records its most emphatic protest against women war. It invites all the sections of the association in their respective countries and also all working class societies and all workers groups of whatever kind to take the most vigorous action to prevent a war between the peoples which today could not be considered anything else than a civil war. No more brother wars. Right. Seeing that since it would be waged between the producers, it would only be a struggle between brothers and citizens. The Congress urges the workers to cease work should war break out in their respective countries. So big challenge. Right. And this is the first time we see this sentiment publicly stated in the world. We hear a lot more of it in World War I as really as part of the Second International as well. Well, so what are some of these other debates that start taking place here? It's really factionalism and the kind of ideological disputes. So Pierre Joseph Proudhon was kind of a founding father of anarchism and just kind of socialism and leftism in the 19th century. He had had this goal of mutual exchange banks, which are, you know, it's a, it's a liberalizing concept to, to free people from the, you know, the ownership of banks by capitalists. But the Marxists disdained it as they stated that it possessed a commercial spirit and it wasn't sufficiently anti capital capitalist. Right. The idea was like by moving away from the current banking system and having a mutual exchange bank there, you could leverage with labor, you could negotiate with labor and not just capital. And the Marxists were like, well, that's negotiating with capitalists instead of just defeating them. So we oppose it. However, rather than this, this argument being something that they would state formally as a goal or say it wasn't a goal, is they essentially said, ah, we'll talk about it in the next Congress because we, we want to resolve this with ourselves. The next one which is going to sound really quaint is about machinery. Right. So the, the laborers, you know, a lot of them saw machinery and mechanization as bad because it takes, takes work away from workers. However, it was also seen as necessary to create the desired material conditions. You know, from the Marxist perspective particularly, that would allow, you know, basically, you know, super cheap, easy, you know, post scarcity life. Right. Because a lot of people were thinking it, you know, let's not think about how things are exactly right now. Let's think into the future. Where are we going? Machinery isn't a bad thing if it leads to this world without want. And so there was a whole argument about, well, machinery is good theoretically because of this, but it should be in a collective ownership, etc. Again, these, none of these were settled, but we are starting to see these arguments that you will recognize if you, if you really know anything about the history of labor relations and the ideological arguments there. And then finally the other argument that really broke out at Brussels was around ownership of land and Agricultural production. Because again, getting back to Prudhon, they had seen a lot of failures in France of, you know, collectivization and the fact that generally, you know, tragedy, the commons is a real thing. But then it gets comes down to it can't be compulsory, so it's volunteer. Is it done individually, is it done collected collectively, etc. Who owns the land, who's responsible for it, et cetera. So again, maturing these ideas and all these different socialist isms are starting to refine and define themselves at this point in time. Again, right, when these guys go to. Go to Spain. So I mentioned Pierre Joseph Proudhon. He lived from 1809 to 1865. He's seen as the father of anarchism by a great many people. He was already heavily networked in Spain at this point. It. During the 1860s because he was a member of.

[Pete Quinones]

Is that because he was a member of French Parliament?

[Carl Dahl]

Yes, exactly. Member of French parliament. And again, remember, the liberal bent in Spain was very French ified. They were very tied into the French government. So in the Spanish government, among the liberals, morals, this level of thinking was very deeply rooted, essentially, essentially anarchist. Again, these people are in government, but they're seeing this as a goal, right, which we a lot of times see as like a Marxian type thinking. But it was, it was all over the place. It's this a progressive, you know, goal that they would get, you know, however they could get it, whether it was, you know, procedurally and slowly or arrived at via revolution if the conditions are right for it. And Prudhomme, I always thought it was.

[Pete Quinones]

I always thought it was funny that he. You get left, right, from the French Parliament. Yeah, the. The liberals, the more liberals were on the left and Friedrich Bastiat, the current, you know, the current crop of people who call themselves libertarians, they would trace their lineage back to Bastiat. And he sat next to Proudhon on the same. On the same side.

[Carl Dahl]

Exactly. Which is. That's why sometimes, every once in a while I use intemperate words to. To talk about libertarians. Because. But, but I will say this, I will say this. I think. I think thinking evolves over time and it really comes down to who you think your enemies are. But when, when I look at people and I determine whether they're my enemy or not, I look at whether they're a friend or an enemy. Right? Not. Not based on what they believe or what, you know, whatever, as much as do they see me as an enemy. And Proudhon was. He was a product of his time, you know, post French Revolution France. He described the liberty he pursued as the synthesis of community and individualism. Which sounds pretty good, right? Like I think that's the balance that everyone, one really has to consider when you, when you look at these things. But he also stated that property is theft. So what his key works, there's what is property? Or An Inquiry into the Principle of Right and Government. Very quaint phrasing for a title. And he also wrote another very influential work called the System of Economic Contradictions or the Philosophy of Poverty. Now his, he dealt a lot with feelings and philosophy and looking at the way things were. Karl Marx wrote a response. He, he had been kind of proudhon was very influential and in, in the left especially, you know, 1848, all these times when, when Marx is coming up and Marx is a product of his time. Another thing that was taking place in the 19th century, 18th and 19th century is there's kind of a split between science and philosophy. And making your argument scientific became really important. And Marx. One of the key things to understand about Marx is he always felt that his approach was scientific and not philosophical. And he wrote a response to the philosophy of poverty titled the Poverty of Philosophy. And in that he basically says the, There will be all these problems with anarchism and the Prudonian element, you know, and not so many words. But I'm just going to put it that way because it's non scientific. And the problem with philosophy is that it doesn't, it isn't as logical and it doesn't have this, you know, know this method being applied to it to prove the accuracy of its statements. There are these, there are these ideas that are felt but does that make it something that can actually exist in the real world? Which I think is a fair, a fair critique. Remember that Marx was trained in like a Hegelian model which again I'm not an expert on Hegel. There's way better people to think of than Hegel. I have to sit down and read Hegel. I've, I've determined that this is going to be one of the things that I'm working on this year because there's a, there's a basic concept that Hegel outlined which is thesis, antithesis and then you establish a synthesis and that's kind of how ideas and things progress over time. And that's, it's, it seems, it's a major, a major understatement to say that that's the way thinking progresses but at the same time like it's, it's a fair point. Like you have these two things that are in opposition with one another and to make progress you have to come up with a synthesis of them, kind of like the ideologies that we're talking about here. And so, so Marx felt that you have to come at these arguments in a very logical, systematic way to prove them and do proofs of statement, which is what you see in Marx's work. Whereas Proudhon tends to be more like, this is a fact. And therefore, rather than arguing through, you know, the nitpicky elements of it and worrying about super detailed argumentation. So one of the really interesting things is that there's a really good chance that Marx's early contention with Prudhon was rooted in the fact that Marx was

[Pete Quinones]

very

[Carl Dahl]

domineering and totalitarian. Like personally, it started out in a softer version of that because he was less established. But if he didn't like someone, he would just, he would dismiss them ideologically. And there's a fellow named Carl Gruen who had been in circles that Marx was a part of, of in Germany. Marx bitterly disliked him and Carl Gruen had been translating Proudhon's work into German. And so Gruen was kind of an early, he was influential in these, in these circles that Marx traveled in in Germany and there. A lot of the kind of philosophical arguments that Marx came out of it landed upon, I should say, came out of him disliking these people and arguing with them about it. So like for example, Gruen argued in a very Proudonian way that humans are material beings. Again, not spiritual, not metaphysical, but material beings, which is something that Marx would agree with, with who are by nature social. They need the community of others to survive. And so he called for a philosophy of action. He felt that spiritual alienation of humanity took place in religion. So, and that's a pretty typical strange spin that atheists would make, which is that religion spiritually alienates humanity. You know, okay, so you do away with it. What are you going to replace that spiritual element with? Oh, with, you know, society coming together.

[Pete Quinones]

He says, I always love the argument that oh, humans are material, but they're also social. Okay. I swear that's circle.

[Carl Dahl]

Exactly. Why is that? And, and, and you know, they make their arguments about it, but it all it does is always just proves that they, that they chose a side. And remember also in the 19th century that atheism was the side that you would take if you were the scientific cool guy, if you were a cool liberal. Liberal. Right. And so they just automatically say oh well, the church is false. I'll talk a little bit more about some other arguments there in a second. But that, that was where this, this position came from. They would just say, oh well, it was false and it was man made because, you know, atheism is obviously correct. And so they just frame it based on that and just are dismissive of all spiritual elements whatsoever. And the fact that people have these experiences, they, they just dismiss it. So this Gruen fellow saw parallel and complementary development of socialist theory in France and the revolution of critical philosophy in German Germany. Whereas Marx, who's using what is essentially critical philosophy but claims that it's science. Right. And so a lot of it is just like really nitpicky and silly and it's, and it really comes down to people arguing with each other for whatever their, whatever their reasons are. So this is, Marx is coming into this world of these other ideas through the iwa, these really influential French people who are very powerful in, in terms of like their standing at the time. And he's a young guy coming into this, you know, seeing what's happened in France. And so, so how does he argue against philosophy? Because, you know, the, the, the philosophers are the ones who are most influential in this group. And he says philosophy gives undue priority to ideology over material substructure. I think there's something fair there. But at the same time this is just a route between the two because he's talking about like, you have to be really scientific, even if what he's really doing is just advocating his own philosophy and claiming it's scientific and not philosophical. So I apologize for that long digression. But it's really important to understand because it's really the core argument between the anarchists. And in this case I'm just embodying them in Karl Marx on the left, left and Mikhail Bakunin on the right. Mikhail Bakunin being really the inheritor of Proudhon's standing because Proudhon died in 1865. And so Mikhail Bakunin, who was a Russian anarchist, became the leading international voice for that orientation. And Tyler redick here from 2311 Racing. Game night's fun until someone spends five minutes lining up one shot. Chalk.

[Pete Quinones]

Breathe.

[Carl Dahl]

Rechalk still aiming. While they figure it out, I fire up Champa Casino. I can spin anywhere, anytime. And there's always a new social casino game every week. Spins happen way faster than that shot. Play now at Chomp of the Sea casino.com Let's Chumba. Sponsored by Chumba Casino. No purchase necessary. VGW Group voidware prohibited by law 21/ terms and conditions apply. What it comes down to is Karl Marx believed that materialism and process, like these historical processes, were scientific and they could be proven scientifically. And then therefore he could make his predictions because he's a man of science and logic and he's looking at the material conditions that everything are rooted in and how they develop. So he was a historical materialist. That's, you know, the basic way of describing him. He saw societies as developing through material development and class conflict, with specific preconditions required to make that progress. He had the same goal, supposedly of a stateless system. However, Bakunin argued that Marx was a statist and an authoritarian, both in his theory, you know, which is rooted in the concept of the dictatorship of the proletariat, where there has to be some sort of state, you know, as an interim, where the proletariat makes its assertions and develops the system of, you know, socialism, state socialism, and then communism over time, where they will eventually arrive at the same desired goal as the anarchist, whereas the anarchists saw that as something that would deteriorate into totalitarianism. And who's that Jewish linguist? I can't think of his name all of a sudden. The anarchist that everyone knows about. The libtard.

[Pete Quinones]

Oh, Chomsky.

[Carl Dahl]

Chomsky. Thank you. Noam Chomsky stated that Bakunin's prediction that Marx's dictatorship of the proletariat would deteriorate into totalitarianism is. Totalitarianism is the only or one of the few accurate predictions in the social sciences that ever took place. So he, he calls Mikhail Bakunin a social scientist, even though he was just a really, a passionate, idealistic revolutionary. And Karl Marx would turn over in his grave, which I hope he does constantly, to see someone make this statement that Chomsky made. Thank you. So I want to also point out a couple of things about Bakunin. One of the things is when you look for material to read about Bakunin, there's, there's, there's not tons of it. He has lots of incomplete little writings.

[Pete Quinones]

Well, I think there. Some people may assume he is part of a certain tribe, but he certainly wasn't. He was actually Russian. Like his dad was a Russian diplomat.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah, they were.

[Pete Quinones]

They lived nowhere near, near the Pale. I mean, they were, they live right near Moscow and they had servants and. Yeah, I mean, this is a guy who. He's a Russian. Russian who actually came from, from some considerable means.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah, he was, he was Russian nobility and he was one of the things I remember constantly reading about but not seeing a lot of proof of it when I was a young man and I wasn't quite as wise to the, the wink winks in this area. I'd be reading material about anarchism and about Bakunin and Jewish writers who would describe him as an anti Semite. And really what he was talking about a lot of the time is Karl Marx who, who will also sometimes see described as an anti Semite even though he was the, the grandson of a, of a long line of rabbis and then his father wasn't a rabbi. His father supposedly was baptized and, but raised Karl Marx primarily, you know, non, non religiously. Bakunan, you know, when, when you look at your, your series that you're doing with Dr. Johnson right now, about 200 years together, Bakunin was coming out of Russia, you know, in the 19th century, seeing the way that Jews behaved commercially and so on, and was commenting on it. And that makes him an anti Semite. Right. That's really where that, that criticism of Bakunin is, is that his anti Semitism was based on real things that he saw taking place. And if your concern is the peasantry and righteousness, you're not gonna to defend the, the Jews of the Pale. It's just, it's, there's no scenario in which that would happen.

[Pete Quinones]

Oh, you're allowed to celebrate certain behavior. If you criticize it, that's when it becomes a problem.

[Carl Dahl]

Exactly, exactly. Whereas Karl Marx, you know, I don't have prepared statements on this topic, but his, his critiques of, of, of Jews that are described as anti Semitic are more about the, the religious practices and, and organizations and as well as a lot of the kind of the, the, the commercial behaviors. Again, fair, fair critiques as a Jewish person himself. But you know, it's, I, I think they make too much of Bakunin supposed anti Semitism. It's just people that Jews don't like are anti Semites. Is, is where that comes from. But I don't like Mikhail Bakunin. He was one of his most famous statements from his posthumously published God in the State, which is basically a fragment of a, of a book that was kind of put together from a bunch of his writings. He was a really disheveled man, as you can see on the right. He would sit down and scribble things out on whatever he could, whatever he could find to write on and other people would put them together for him. He was very passionate and reactive like that. He made us the. He stated if God really existed, it would be necessary to abolish him. And then, you know, here's another one that'll sound familiar. You know, Saul Alinsky said essentially the same thing, saying that this was the belief of, of the Jews. But this is Bakunin, the supposed anti Semite saying this. But here steps in Satan, the eternal rebel, the first free thinker in the emancipator of worlds. He makes man ashamed of his bestial ignorance and obedience. He emancipates him, he stamps upon his brow the seal of liberty and humanity in urging him to disobey and eat of the fruit of knowledge. However, so this is a classic libtard, you know, position, right? Anti anti clerical, anti religious position. However, he also was very critical of the, the revolutionaries themselves and really the concept of power. And I think this will resonate. You'll understand what he's saying about Marx and Marxists is true, but it's also a. Something that we should examine within ourselves. Have we internalized this thinking too much? Like with, you know, libertarian priors? Quote, if you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the czar himself. So he had this extremely revolutionary framing, but he was constantly critiquing the danger of the revolutionary state in particular, care particular. So this is the push pull between these two men in particular not just the ideologies, but a lot of it came down to the men disliking each other. Marx was pushing for the international, the iwa to develop a single platform. And he wanted to require the establishment of workers parties in each country that would follow the same program. The really communist International. That's what he wanted all along. Whereas this organization was originally supposed to be just everyone spreading their ideas and the best idea would win. Right? So that is what's driving Bakunin and his people to make contact in Spain. It was to spread the ideas in Spain, but also to get strength in this international organization for the anarchist idiom. So that's a lot of, that's a lot of background. And what I want to do is I want to point out where you get a lot of these, the, the factionalism and all the different sub isms and the modifiers, the adjectives that are applied to various ideologies from the, from the left. And this is just real basic. So obviously you have the three key strategies that are big differentiators between these different groups. And you'll see that in these arguments that are taking place and where people kind of bucket themselves or they apply these modifiers to themselves. So obviously you have the revolutionary, and I have this on, on the far left side for good reasons. You have the revolutionary leftist strategy, which is that you don't legitimize the regime regime by participating in the formal political process. So you organize solely to develop alternatives and ideological institutions that are under your control outside of the existing system. You advocate violence against both the state and your political enemies, which also includes like, you know, clergy and so on, and they use inflammatory rhetoric. The pragmatic strategy is that you engage in collaboration with the government if it achieves your goals, but you're generally revolutionary. You organize to both develop alternative institutions as well as to mobilize politically, like legally in the. In the system. You seek the appearance of legitimacy. And internally these people are conflicted about the use of state power against other radicals. Like they want to suppress the. The other radicals that oppose them, but they also understand that that could be used against them. They have inconsistent rhetoric. And then there's the reformist tendency or strategy in leftism. They primarily work toward their goals through the legal political processes, whether they do everything legally. When I say legal political processes, I just mean the formal state. It's like the democrats now, they, they violate the law all the time, but it's done through the state. They organize to engage primarily with the legal political process. They condemn violence, right, but accept the use of force against radicals. So they talk all the time about, you know, peaceful legitimacy, legitimate, you know, authority and. Or legitimate processes and democracy and all that bullshit, but they accept the use of force against their enemies and they use careful rhetoric. So I point that out because when you look at all these different parties, you'll notice a lot of the argument is about not about what their goals are, but about how they get there. And so after this mission to Spain and the. The IWA starts grouping together these Spaniards and figuring out where they're going to have a congress, where their headquarters is going to be, kind of what their program is going to be. They end up focusing on Barcelona, and it's because Barcelona embraced this program, you know, fully. And so they. Their first workers Congress was 1870 in Barcelona, and it was seen as a victory of collectivist anarchism and apoliticism over state socialism as it relates to Spanish participation in the international. So essentially the IWA congress in Spain is, Is not working with the Spanish government. It's excluding altogether the, the. The Marxian and the collaborationist groups in Madrid. And they're just not interested in it. And because this message has come through to them. So why Anarchism and not Marxism. Right. So the way that these ideas spread was through and engagement with the IWA was spread through these anarchist oriented groups. And there's this really interesting concept from Anselmo Lorenzo and some other folks. Anselmo Lorenzo is the man pictured here. He's seen as a godfather and really like a historian of Spanish anarchism. He and a collaborator named Tomas Gonzalez Morago, who owned an engraving shop and publishing house, which was interestingly in Madrid. But they were sending material all over the country of Spain in Spanish. Whether it's their works, whether it's works coming from Bakunin and other people, a lot of it was actually Spanish anarchist material. Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest here. And if you're looking for some serious fun, head over to chumbac casino.com@chumba casino. You can play all your favorite social casino style games for free, anytime, anywhere. It's the most fun you can have on your phone or computer. No purchase necessary. Terms and Conditions 21 they, they arrived at this idea where they would say let's explain our own history and our own beliefs. And Gonzalez Morago and Anselmo Lorenzo stated that anarchism and choralism were expressions of the same Spanish feeling. Again, it's not this scientific process, it's this feeling in the Spanish that they felt in common. And while they were enemies because they were split on the really around the Church is the biggest split between them, they felt. And their way of trying to argue and get people to come over to their side is that they're saying we hate political farces like the Carlists. We have a longing for a richer and deeper social life. Life that you still see in some parts of, you know, Spain, especially Carlos Spain. You still see this in the towns, you still see this all over the place. But we want to see social moral reform just like them. Except for for the anarchists who are focused in the cities and Andalusia, where they feel like that the people on the bottom of the totem pole get the a raw deal. Theirs is a totally different mission and they feel that there the Church is suppressing these people, while the Carlists embrace the church as supporting them. I've talked about this a lot. You have noblesse oblige of Christian feudalism in the north and in the, in the southern areas and in the cities. You don't have that. They felt that liberalism and state socialism were strengthening the bourgeoisie and the central government to the detriment of the working classes. So Gonzalez Morago, who was again the Publisher who was spreading a lot of this information. He was a delegate from the Spanish Iwa group. He was expelled from the International in 1873, executed by the organization's general counsel. And because it was. He was an anarchist. And so this absolutely cemented the Spanish orientation with the international anarchist groups and not associated with the Marxist group groups. The Marxist groups did really well with these state socialist and liberal groups that were in Madrid, but not as a part of their organization. And the real revolutionary foment ended up with these. These anarchists. All right,

[Pete Quinones]

that makes. That makes a ton of sense. I mean, yeah, it actually really does.

[Carl Dahl]

And that's why I wanted to walk through this. It's. It's a little. It's. There's a lot of stuff and there's a lot of details, but this stuff really has to be understood. And like I said that the. The two books that I recommended at the beginning, the Spanish Anarchists, the Heroic Years by Book Chin. Great book. And he's a really good writer too. He makes. He makes a really sympathetic case, and he's really sympathetic with the Spanish. Even framing his presentation on the Carlists in a really sympathetic way. Like this resonates with him. Or at least he states that it resonates with him, which is really interesting to think about. He became. He became part of that, that, that. That kind of wing of American anarchists that essentially became less political and more like focusing on localism and environmentalism as. As he got older. And it's agorism. Yes. Yeah. And. And so it's an interesting. It's an interesting position. And I think that the overlap with that. I think a lot of people who describe themselves as libertarians, you know about this overlap. A lot of them don't. So it's, it's interesting. It's interesting. And people, People should. People should read. People should not watch TV nearly as much as they do. Probably shit Post less, which is why you don't see me posting a whole lot, because I'm reading so much right now. But it's like this stuff is all very interesting, and it helps you to have an informed position on these things and then also step back and compare it to your own situation, especially as it relates to when you're organizing. You know, what are the kinds of things in factionalism that you see? So what was the influence of the Mission to Spain beyond what I've talked about in Spain, when we step back and we come and look at the impact to the actual IWA congresses after the Spanish Mission? So the first one after the Spanish mission was The Basel Congress 1869, which had its first delegates from Spain and they were both Catalan anarchists, Rafael Farga y Pelethere and Gaspar Centenion. And then also the very first delegate from America came to the Basel Congress of 18 1969, Andrew Cameron from the National Labor Union that the National Labor Union evolved into the the Knights of Labor and then also the American Federation of Labor, AFL from AFL CIO the the Hague Congress of 1872. So this is after the Paris Commune, which is really important. The Paris Commune is a whole thing that we should probably dive into sometime and I'd be happy to put something together for that. But in the German French War 1870, the Socialists and anarchists of Paris barricade the city and defended against the French while also fighting against the, excuse me, to defend it against the Germans and then also end up fighting with the state. And this is a huge thing because the kind of slow evolution socialists and Marx and everyone has to respond to this and they have to have their own hot take on what took place. And you have your argument for this is how things should evolve. But also here's this really important thing that that worked for a short period of time and then failed. And so you have to react to it. You have to have your own take. And so this is where everyone had their hot takes on the Paris Commune, including Marx. And his take is really interesting because you can see that kind of balancing of. Of his own framing. But what happens at the Hague Congress, Bakunin and Guillaume, you know that the two most notable anarchists who are big supporters of the Paris Commune are expelled from the iwa. And the anarchist wing of the IWA is reconvened at Saint Saint Imier, Switzerland and declares itself to be the true heir to the International the Spanish. The Spanish F R E A I T their own delegate get they formed the largest national chapter at of the anarchists at the iwa. There were dozens upon dozens of them and they were on fire. They were ready, they were ready for revolution. So what's taking place in Spain during this critical time? The split split of the IWA. So 1873 to 1876, I call it a swing and a miss. So despite the Bourbon Restoration, El Torno Pacifico, the peaceful term that I was talking about before, where there's the two major establishment parties, conservative and Liberal, had this system where they said we're going to determine, we're going to easily manage these general elections, were going to switch back and forth with one another. It had a powerful moderating effect upon the like legitimist Spanish political life for the remainder of the 19th century. In 1873, the First Spanish Republic was proclaimed and it fell that same year. The president was Catalan, Federalist Republican and anarchist Fronsec P E Margal. And we're going to look a little more about who he was. Again, basically an anarchist was put in charge as president of the first Spanish Republic because that's where the energy was at the time. It sounds wild, but it's very important to understand this stuff. The Bourbon Restoration took place in 1874. Again, constitutional monarchy is implemented. This tempers the Restoration, but it also moderates the extremists by giving them an outlet in this constitutional monarchy. And that, that whole deal, that tourno pacifico, the peaceful turn, peacefully switching back and forth between establishment conservative and establishment liberal parties, where they have alternating periods of power, you know, as facemen, as face fags. The radical parties are implicitly suppressed through this process, if not explicitly done. So the fueros and home rule are abolished in Basque country now. So again, remember, two decades before, it was maybe three decades before it was abolished in Navarre and now it's abolished in Basque country. This is a liberal victory. The Liberals always saw home rule as being a. Like a tool of the Carlist, the traditionalists, the monarchists and Catholics against the central Liberal government. So this is. This is a big deal. It's not a republic, but it's probably even more moderating than the Republic would have been. And then Mikhail Bakunin dies in 1876. So let's talk a little bit about Frank Pe Margal, the first president of a Spanish republic which only lasted for less than a year. So he was Catalan. He was a republican politician for a good 50 years, 40, 47 years. He was a theorist and a publisher. He was constantly writing, majorly influential despite his politicism, as they would describe it. He was participating in the political process. But he was fundamentally an anarchist ideologically. He owned several newspapers and journals. Here's an interesting one. La Razon, the Reason was published in Basque country and distributed in the rest of the country. Part of the reason the fueros were cracked down on at the time was because it allowed some level of home rule where people could publish in Basque country until that was shut down by the Liberals in the central government in the 1870s. And then he published the Discussion, La Discussion. He was the principal translator of Proudhon's works and he published his own book called Reaction and Revolution, which is seminal Spanish leftist material and anarchist material in 1854. I describe it as Hegelian Prudonius and it's reaction and revolution. It's this whole thesis, antithesis, synthesis approach. So it's really influential. It's very interesting. I highly recommend it. It's not super long. You can find it in English online. And it's worth reading to understand this mindset because you're like, but wait, I thought the anarchists didn't want to be part of the state. He was a face man in the establishment political process, sharing these ideas. Another concept that's really important to understand in Spain and France. Another element of Prudonism, Prudhonian thought, is fundamentally Spanish. Pete, you will totally get this. Federalism was the form of the First Spanish Republic which lasted only 11 months. It consists of largely autonomous territories, a multi state nation.

[Pete Quinones]

So which existed de facto.

[Carl Dahl]

Exactly.

[Pete Quinones]

For centuries.

[Carl Dahl]

For centuries. It was the Spanish way of doing things. So this was baked. Baked into their thinking. It was baked into this counter that it's this push pull of Madrid with these other groups. And again, the first Spanish republic was quashed and replaced with a system that the Madridians preferred, which was less autonomy. So there's a contemporary historian whose work is interesting. I'm going to buy his book on Largo Caballero. It's called the Spanish Lenin. It's only available in Spanish. It's not available online. I couldn't even find an E version of it, which facilitates my retarded Spanish reading because I can paste it into a translator and then look up the Spanish words, you know, and do that whole back and forth. I'm gonna have to grind it out. But anyway. Hey guys, it is Ryan. For years, chum has been setting the bar for online social casino fun. And it just keeps getting better. With new games released every week and daily bonuses to collect, the fun never stops. So claim your welcome bonus [e-mail] no purchase necessary. BGW terms and conditions 21 plus he's interesting and he notes that related to federalism, the federalists reasoned in reverse that the afranthados, which is the Frenchified Madrid liberals and moderates who made the state the cornerstone of their moderate modernizing project, did so to the detriment of the sovereign nation, because they considered the nation would only reach the fullness of its existence if the unitary and centralist state. And again, when you say the unitary and central estate. I'm going to preface the dash which he fills in. This is the existing like creaking groaning, cobweb covered super state in Spain that had grown up during the Spanish Empire and become decrepit and corrupt. So it's the existing tax structure, the quintos del Rey, quinto estel rey is an old rule which is that 20% of all the loot, the treasure finds or the mining going to the king. That 20%, 20 to the king, the forces of order, the government ministries and the monarchy, if all the, all of that was conveniently scrapped, thus proposing a kind of nation without a state. So again, the idea for this first Spanish republic was a very weak central state that would essentially be unable to deal with the problems of the whole nation baked into the cake, as you say, de facto what they had for centuries, a millennia. And, and it was seen as kind of the natural way of doing things in Spain, which was its greatest weakness. Right, so absolutely. So what happens, what happens with Spanish anarchism during this period, the 1870s to the 90s, 90s? It's kind of a radical bomb throwing period for anarchists all over the world, including in America. Although in America the anarchists were a problem well into the 20th century. Foreign anarchists, not American anarchists. I'm looking at you, Italians. I'm just kidding. Not really. So what happens? Because there's the moderating influence of that torno pacifico with, with the central government, with the official institutions, etc. Well, what are they doing? They are living their beliefs. They are developing parallel institutions. So here's some examples. Francisco Ferrer is a hugely influential Spanish anarchist and Spanish educator and organizer. Kaiser, very influential in Spanish history. He develops the modern schools, which are schools not run by the church, so they're secular schools. And he has money because people love this system and they're donating money to him. Very wealthy liberals are supporting him. So he develops a network of schools and a publishing house that spreads their ideas all over Spain. And people start implementing these things because they have resources to do it. And kind of the, the fragmented like exploration of these liberal ideas is taking place all over the country. And then additionally they're developing these federations of workers associations and labor, labor councils, which is essentially a form of syndicalism, which I'll explain here shortly. On its own slide, they're forming their own leadership class. So through these processes, developing their own schools, developing their own libraries, developing their own kind of parallel institutions, their labor parties and councils, they're becoming very influential in their communities and they are developing their own leadership class. People coming from the working class and peasant backgrounds. It's less these sympathizers that are coming from the nobility and the. And the like bourgeois classes. It's their own class of leaders and thinkers that are very revolutionary, fundamentally and possessed imbued with massive amounts of class consciousness and frankly seething resentment. But they're building this instead of being like, let's rush to revolution.

[Pete Quinones]

It's.

[Carl Dahl]

Let's establish our own thing. And it's not to step out and live free of the existing institutions so much as it's to happen. Have their own institutions with which they can actually challenge those existing institutions when the time is right. So the Federation of Workers Associations and Labor Councils called itself variably the Federation of Workers Societies of the Spanish region. They adopt the strictures of predecessors and these ideas that are flowing from the IWA and the International and all these anarchist thinkers and really become really strong through the 70s and into the 1880s. And they begin to ride a wave of general strikes all around the country. Valencia, Sevilla, Saragossa and other anarchist strongholds holds in Andalucia, town after town would be going on strike and demanding communist liberty. Communismo libertario. So like a collective, a communal libertarianism. There were minor insurrections all over the place. And the movement in the countryside continued for several years. Did not come into an end until 1905 when famine in the south because of the weather literally starved them into submission. So the agitation has spread all over the place going into the 20th century. These ideas are deeply rooted and it's multi generational at this point. Syndicalism. Remember when I was talking about how strategies and tactics of how you get things is one of the key differentiators of like leftist thinking and all these little dash isms. Anarchist syndicalism.

[Pete Quinones]

More pragmatism.

[Carl Dahl]

Yes, exactly. Anarchist syndicalism was a revolutionary movement that was also fairly pragmatic, that had a goal of transferring the ownership of and control of the means of production and distribution to workers unions. And so that was always their goal. This was a hugely Prudonian concept. And then late in life here I have Jacques Sorel or Georges Sorel, excuse me, who was a French social philosopher who vacillated all over the place.

[Pete Quinones]

Place.

[Carl Dahl]

He's really interesting guy. Thomas has talked about him on your show a bit. I think it was on your show. Maybe it was one of his.

[Pete Quinones]

We did a couple episodes on him. He very inspired the radical right or the. Not the radical right, but the socialist right in the early 20th century.

[Carl Dahl]

The socialist right. And this is the reason I'M showing Sorrel and talking about this way is because if you think about it, it's, it's a very interesting idea. The fallen gay were, you know, the Spanish phalanx, the, the quote unquote fascist group in Spain. What they were really doing is they were saying let's take the ideas for organization and what motivates people, you know, the, among the poor and the working class in particular. And let's, let's use that for our own purposes because we do acknowledge that we have social problems. And Sorel, it's really interesting because there, there were people who describe, just in some describe his, his position as really not changing but like redirecting his, his thinking and his orientation as like a revision of Marxism that like breaks the link between revolution and the working class and replacing it with like the national community, which was, which again Sorrell passed away I think in the, in the 20s, but.

[Pete Quinones]

In the 20s.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah, but this idea and the way he described it really, really made the, a lot of the radical right groups sit up and take notice because they said, oh my gosh, look at how powerful these things are. This, this form of organization as well as the fact that it really does mobilize this, this group that has been radicalized and we can use to our own ends, you know, to support our nation rather than it being this international and anti national effort effort that would be directed towards destroying the nation itself. So the strategy was one, you unionize workers and you advance your demands through strikes and other forms of direct action. But then there's an inherent dilemma to that which is that workers become de. Radicalized as they get reforms over time. Right. Like you get better pay. And the, this is something that's huge within the CNT and that CNT FAI kind of sub faction. And even in the Spanish Civil War the CNT is a less radical but anarchist, but also used to working with the central government and used to working with business owners and negotiating and getting things for their people, but that can de. Radicalize them. And in fact when, when you have that whole argument around putting the revolution on hold for the purposes of focusing on the war and getting along collaborating with the second Spanish Republic and the, and the Marxists and the, and the Soviets so that you can get arms, that's deep, you know, that's counter revolutionary to the anarchists. And so it's this whole push pull that becomes a big thing. But the point is that this method allowed them to build massive organizations that were incredibly powerful, powerful in getting there, in getting their way, as well as mobilizing them for, for the war that was to come. So to wrap things up here, I just want to show this model and I think it's useful to consider this. And Sorrell, IWW is trash. The International Workers of the World were trash. There's a monument not too far from where I grew up, up to them now, which disgusts me because the people that are honored there were rightfully dealt with by American patriots after World War I in some, some group violence that they were trying to instill because they love their, they love international Bolshevism. But the organizational method is very interesting and it's. This is very similar to the model utilized by the cnt, the Spanish cnt to mobilize and organize. It's a little more centralized form of syndicalism, but is still considered under the blanket of a voluntarist type of organization in the, in the kind of anarchist and socialist milieu. So the idea is that you have this structure of these councils, these work councils and representatives engaging with one another. And the cities have their own councils that are broken up by these shop unions and they have delegates that go to other cities and to other unions and they go out to the individual. They're organized at the like, office level and you know, the specific industry that are people in, people are in and everything like that. And this whole structure allows them to organize and be able to communicate with vast sweeps of the culture. And that is really an incredible model. And again, I'm not saying we should become syndicalists or anything like that, but I say it's an incredible, incredible model for organizing people in like a pragmatic way that Sorrell saw and the more radical right saw after the left had been using it as something to consider. And when you are in the position we're in, which is that, you know, we've been essentially denationalized and you know, de. Racialized. We need to reconsider the ways of organizing. And you at least have to be open to exploring things that have been successful in the past and taking what's useful Bruce Lee style and discarding what isn't. And the, the anarchists, despite the, the poverty of their, of their philosophy, were, were very good at doing this. And this is some of the methods that they used. So that concludes my, my TED Talk. Thanks for your time. And I have some articles about this topic out of my substack. I don't have articles about this specific piece, but I think I'll do some threads and Probably a support article with some links to the various works that I cited because they're all available out there for free online. And so I'll get that up with a link to this recording when it's, when it's in the clear for non subscribers to Pete's podcast. But thanks a lot, Pete. Appreciate it. And I'm glad we were able to do this.

[Pete Quinones]

Oh, not a problem at all. This was great. It's always. You always want to know what the conditions are that allow something like this to arise.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah.

[Pete Quinones]

And yeah, the conditions were ripe and it was just one of those things, you know. Know, I have a tendency to look at what happened in the 19th century and how so many things were happening in so many different countries. Some might say, oh, well, all of this was planned internationally. No, a lot of this stuff was happening organically at the same time.

[Carl Dahl]

Totally.

[Pete Quinones]

And I think that that has a lot to do with the spirit of the age. And I think you have to look at that, you have to drop your materialism and, and start looking at that from a metaphysical standpoint.

[Carl Dahl]

I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. And that's why I dove into the iwa, because it wasn't just about the ideas. Right. The ideas were there. The, the, the natural inclination of the Spanish corresponded, I should say, of the revolutionary Spanish, specifically correlated to the, to the anarchists. But part of it was this struggle for the, the argument, the international argument against the Marxists. And frankly, the anarchists lost the argument, or again, because of the nature, the nature of their, of their beliefs. They kind of had to remove themselves from the way that the Marxists were playing and the Marxists took over the international socialist movement, even though it was wide open at the time. So, yeah, it was the spirit of the age. Absolutely. And it can be hard to talk about too, because I was talking to someone who's a mutual of ours on Twitter recently and he's in the UK and he was saying that he, he isn't as radically anti international brigades as I was, or he, he has some sympathies to them. And, and I stated essentially that I understand that given that again, the conditions on the ground were different for them than they are in America, but they're also different than they are in Spain. And you really have to be, you have to be open to reading these things and reading things that offend you to, to, to understand where, where people are coming from so that you can understand your enemy. And if we listen to the, I mean, none of us are listening to James Lindsay. No one who's going to be listening to this thinks that guy's worth a. But those voices, these, like, let's, let's ignore the reality of what we're actually talking about and let's make claims, names that are totally ahistorical and not based on fact whatsoever to, to control the argument and control the debate. Like, we need to, we need to not only call those people out and ignore them, we need to share real information and we need to, like, engage with the material and ours is the winning argument. Like you were saying before, you pretty much have to become our guys to survive. And I think, you know, we're in a very interesting time right now. No one knows what's going to happen with the Trump administration. You know, he was sworn in today. He made some very, very strong statements about what, you know, his priorities are going to be. And I just don't think, think that you're going to be able to reconcile this James Lindsay and, you know, rufo, kind of moderate 90s leftism with what's being, what has to be done and the mission ahead and the threats and who the enemies are. They're not going to be able to reconcile it. But you can reconcile it with left, like our beliefs and our positions.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, you can't. The, the atmosphere and the, the ideology, the strict ideology that allows subversion as such, as we've seen, is not going to. It's an ideology. It can't change.

[Carl Dahl]

Yep.

[Pete Quinones]

So it's not going to be able to initiate any change and it's not going. I remember one time he said, classical liberalism hasn't even begun to, you know, begun to fight kind of thing. And it's like, all I see is like, real classical liberalism has never been tried.

[Carl Dahl]

Exactly.

[Pete Quinones]

And it just doesn't. It's not, it's not understanding the spirit of the age.

[Carl Dahl]

Classical liberalism is, is the enemy. Sorry.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, I experienced this on Twitter 5, 6 days ago, I posted up from 1938 was a speech Hitler gave and he described what he, what socialism meant to him. And I just asked a couple people, I said, you know, what do you disagree with in the statement? Nobody would answer the question. They would go into like, I mean, it was like someone wrote like a paper or copied and pasted a paper talking about how Hitler was a socialist, he did this, this, this, this. I'm like, answer the question. What do you disagree with in the statement? Well, there's this, this. I'm like, are you so locked into your worldview of, of Socialism. This is my meaning of socialism. This is my, this is how I define it.

[Carl Dahl]

Yeah.

[Pete Quinones]

There's no other possible way of defining it. So when you, when I see something that goes up against the grain, I have to answer with my no. What do you disagree with in this statement? Oh, you can't answer. You, you're not my, you're not on my team.

[Carl Dahl]

Exactly, exactly. I, I think the most important thing for us to think about is when you, you have to look at what you actually want. What outcome do you want? Like outside step, outside of ideology. I, I feel like I've become post ideological, although I'll, I could also. There's also ideologies that people could say that I have and they are the ones that are essentially third position. Although I also understand the argument that there's no such thing given America 2025.

[Pete Quinones]

Right.

[Carl Dahl]

A totally fair argument. Which is why I ultimately say I'm post ideological and that I step back and I look at it like this. What outcomes do I want and who do I want them for? It's like, it's like things that happen to people. And what people do, I care about. What people do, I don't care about, like, I don't have any hostility towards people in foreign countries, but I, it's not my job to lift them up. And in our country, I care more about, you know, good people and the people in my family, for example, or people that are like me and want the same outcomes that I want than other people who are. I'm not interested in sucking up to. And so it's like, if you look at it from that perspective outside of ideology, who gives a shit? I mean, if it's so easy to see, like you were saying that socialism in contexts means different things and he specifically used that word because it one meant something in German. And it also stole that argument away from his enemies. It stole the. This is socialism. This is, this is caring about society and like social, you know, the social good. Good. It, it became his. He owned it at that point because he said, no, that's nonsense. I can reconcile these things and neutralize my opponents. Because it isn't what you say it is, it's what I say it is. And that resonated with people. He didn't say it that way. He just said this is what socialism is to us. And that's incredibly powerful.

[Pete Quinones]

Powerful. Yep. Yeah. People, people have a tendency to look at ideology and think that that's exactly how it's going to be. It's going to be right down the, you know, we get it implemented. This is exactly how it's going to work. Nope, that's, that's not how it works at all.

[Carl Dahl]

It's not how it works.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, you created it, you created it in a lab and, and you haven't introduced it to human beings yet. I will introduce it to human beings. You're going to find, you're going to find out that it's. If it works, it's not going to be, it's not going to be exactly how you want it. And you're going to have to start with the trade offs as much as that's going to be painful.

[Carl Dahl]

I was reading, I've been reading something over the past couple days. I've been about dirty. Who was the. Basically the anarchist. Anarchist militant, like military leader during the Spanish Civil War and all these arguments about the collaboration of the cnt, like councils with these other groups and Dirudy's position and whether or not we have, you know, real, real transcripts of this really important speech that was broadcast on radio in, you know, in Barcelona and all this and all these things. And, and it's so funny because they, they veer between the practical and the ideological so much and the way people talk about these things that it's, it's just another form of, of obfuscation that takes place or people or, or it's really rooted in a, an argument that people are having now. Like there, there's, there's anarchist groups, there's a CNT political party in Spain right now and all these other groups that like call them like traitors and betrayers of the, of the anarchist, you know, ideology and the people. It's, it's all this classic, this classic argumentation that, you know, is totally familiar to people who've studied this stuff. And, and, and it just comes down as so petty and pointless that the last thing we should be doing is engaging in that stuff. You know, call, call out your enemies when they claim to be on your side and aren't. But other than that, just like move forward. Stop worrying about ideology. Start thinking about results.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, yeah. And if you're, if your enemy takes out another, you know, it does something that neutralizes, doesn't have to be death, but neutralizes another one of your other enemies. Okay, that's something to be celebrated.

[Carl Dahl]

Yep.

[Pete Quinones]

I had someone on, I had someone on Twitter this morning who was like, just mad because it's like, well, we can't celebrate that person because he's not on our side. We can't celebrate what happened. Because that's not. Well, fuck you.

[Carl Dahl]

Oh, that's ridiculous.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, you don't want. You don't want to win. You just want to be right. There are people who want to win, and there are people who want to be right. I'm not really interested in the people who want to be right.

[Carl Dahl]

I am. Yeah, I am. I'm very tired of engaging with those people because it's. It's just a waste of time.

[Pete Quinones]

All right, I will link up to everything here. Carl doll, substack.com your Twitter, and also I have a link for your merch. Thank you. In the show notes. Yes, sir. And until we. Until we find another subject on this to podcast on. Because it's endless with.

[Carl Dahl]

It's endless. It's endless. Absolutely.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. All right, Carl. Thank you.

[Carl Dahl]

Thanks, Pete. Hey, it's Bubba Wallace from 2311 Racing.

[Pete Quinones]

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[Pete Quinones]

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[Carl Dahl]

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