The Dulles Brothers and the Founding of the CIA w/ Philos Miscellany and Stormy Waters - Complete

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Pete Quiñones Show

Episode: The Dulles Brothers and the Founding of the CIA w/ Philos Miscellany and Stormy Waters - Complete
Date: August 9, 2026
Host: Peter R. Quiñones
Guests: Philosopher ("Philo") and Stormy Waters

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Main Theme / Purpose

This two-part episode takes an in-depth, revisionist look at the Dulles brothers—John Foster Dulles (Secretary of State) and Allen Dulles (Director of Central Intelligence)—and their formative influence on US foreign policy, the CIA, and the broader structure of American power from the 1940s through the 1960s. With a critical review of sources and a willingness to challenge both conventional and leftist narratives, Philos and Stormy, alongside Pete Quiñones, interweave little-known historical details, personal ideologies, the postwar intelligence landscape, and the legacy of elite American networks.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Dulles Brothers: Family, Background, and Philosophies

• WASP Aristocracy: Allen Dulles's lineage (Presbyterian minister’s son, aristocratic family, elite education at Princeton) predestined him for positions of power ([07:13–08:00]).
• Networking and Early Intelligence: His early career in post-WWI Switzerland involved building international networks that would later support both diplomacy and intelligence work ([08:00–12:30]).
• Sympathies with National Socialism: Both brothers are described as Nazi sympathizers, with business and political ties to German industry throughout the 1930s ([13:47–16:40], [20:32–25:33]).

Quote - Stormy:
“Allen Dulles was. And John Foster Dulles was National Socialist sympathizers and American heroes. And we can take it from there.” (05:41)

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2. Sullivan & Cromwell: Legal and Financial Empire

• Economic Ties to the Third Reich: Through their law firm, Sullivan & Cromwell, the brothers facilitated American investments in German industry (e.g., IG Farben, Krupp Steel) and maintained lucrative business connections even as the Nazis came to power ([13:47–18:27]).
• Moral vs. Economic Calculations: The brothers’ focus was on American and client interests, with ideological alignments sometimes subordinate to business priorities ([25:33–26:31]).

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3. The Bank for International Settlements and Postwar Ratlines

• BIS as ‘Nazi Bank’: The Bank for International Settlements (BIS), run by Dulles ally Thomas McKittrick, operated as a sovereign entity aiding the movement of Nazi assets and, according to Stormy, facilitating the escape of Nazi officials after WWII ([30:01–35:53]).
• Operation Paperclip and Beyond: The CIA’s rescue and utilization of Nazi officers, scientists, and intelligence operatives went far beyond Paperclip, preserving Germany’s power structures for Cold War purposes ([34:01–35:53], [42:35–52:15]).

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4. Institutionalizing the CIA: Structure, Power, and Methods

• Dulles's Blueprint: The Dulles-Jackson-Correa Report: This foundational document outlined how the CIA would become the president’s principal instrument for covert power, bypassing traditional military and diplomatic chains ([83:05–90:25], [142:11]).
• Legal and Illegal Operations: The CIA established both "legal" (overt, with diplomatic cover) and "illegal" (clandestine, without official sanction) networks at American embassies worldwide ([144:53]).
• Recruitment and Overlap: The Agency’s core staff drew from elite Ivy institutions as well as the military, cultivating a self-replicating, closed establishment ([126:38–156:46]).

Quote - Philosopher (Philo):
“The Dulles-Jackson-Correa report was the CIA’s Mein Kampf. Dulles describes exactly how he’s taking this from a low-key intelligence coordination center to a major power center in the U.S. government…” (87:49)

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5. Cold War Logic and Global Covert Action

• Anticommunism above All: The Agency’s guiding ideology was relentless anticommunism, leveraging ex-Nazi expertise and conducting regime changes as a matter of operational routine ([98:27–100:24]).
• “Constant Enemy” Doctrine: The need for an existential threat fueled perpetual intervention and just-in-time intelligence requests ([98:27]).

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6. The Angleton Question: Israel, Internal Subversion, and JFK

• James Jesus Angleton: The mysterious CIA counterintelligence chief serves as a throughline for Agency intrigue, suspected Zionist subversion, and the Kennedy assassination ([55:39–71:09], [160:07–164:07]).
• Zionism vs. Communism: Guests suggest Dulles was ultimately undone by infiltration from Zionist-aligned interests, which they see as more dangerous and subversive than Soviet communism ([157:51–164:07]).
• Kennedy Assassination Narrative: They argue Dulles was not complicit in JFK’s murder, but was instead removed from power by hidden hands within or adjacent to the CIA, as part of a larger struggle over nuclear weapons and US policy toward Israel ([174:26–188:19]).

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7. Regime Change, Colonialism & U.S. Foreign Policy Ethics

• Debating Colonial Models: Stormy and Philo defend American intervention in the 1950s–60s as less destructive than other colonial empires, arguing that it ultimately forced organic, anti-communist resilience ([109:18–126:38]).
• “Test of Antifragility”: The US, they claim, repeatedly toppled Latin American regimes until a system resistant to communism evolved—a harsh but necessary form of rapid evolution ([119:19], [124:43]).

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8. CIA Internal Dynamics and Elite Networks

• Class, Loyalty, and the Ivy League: Discussion of how shared elite backgrounds facilitated trust—and blind spots—within the Agency, as exemplified by Angleton and Dulles's inability to detect class traitors like Kim Philby ([162:01–166:26]).
• Navy and Military Intelligence Rivalries: The Navy’s persistent influence and parallel intelligence apparatus are noted as a sometimes-overlooked counterweight to the CIA ([151:09–157:06]).

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9. Contemporary Reflections & The Intelligence Legacy

• Modern Geopolitics: The discussion closes with current power plays regarding Ukraine, Iran, Israel, and China—arguing that intelligence community priorities still supersede electoral politics, and that military and intelligence factions within the US government sometimes act independently ([227:49–254:28]).
• Ethics, Dehumanization & Spiritual Decline: The hosts lament the loss of metaphysical seriousness among US elites, contrasting past intelligence chiefs’ perceived moral weight with the cynicism and amorality of today’s policymakers ([256:46–264:35]).

Quote - Philosopher (Philo):
“When you kill someone, or when you order someone’s death, you need an answer beyond deflecting... It really rubs me the wrong way that people can lie while wearing a cross.” (263:30)

Quote - Stormy:
“You don’t watch the dehumanizing of someone else, large amounts of people, without being dehumanized yourself. We are all less for what has been happening…” (261:20)

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Memorable Moments / Notable Quotes

• [20:32] Pete: “Allen Dulles met with Hitler in 1933, one of the few Americans to do so, and said that he came away impressed.”
• [26:31] Philo: “Alan Dulles met face to face with Hitler in Hitler's Berlin office in March of 1933... particularly interested in determining what the rise of Hitler meant for his law firm's corporate interests.”
• [34:01] Stormy: “Paperclip was just a drop in a bucket of what he was doing. We didn't just take scientists. Thanks to Alan Dulles, we took hundreds of thousands of people out of the Third Reich before the Soviets put them in camps and shot them.”
• [55:39] Stormy: “Shortly before JFK was murdered. JFK did not have any...beef with Dulles or with the CIA [over Bay of Pigs/Vietnam]. ...All of the guns that were supposed to be going to the bay, to the Cuban resistance fighters, were actually being stolen for Israel.”
• [114:07] Philo: “That's [IMF/World Bank neoliberal policy] actually significantly more harmful in the long term than a short term regime change that the Dulles brothers were doing.”
• [167:22] Stormy: “Allen Dulles shaped world events, historical events, far more than anyone in Congress, Far more than any individual army officer. General doesn't fucking matter. Any president doesn't matter.”
• [264:35] Stormy: “Do your actions honor God? That's the end right there.”

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Key Timestamps

• [01:29–02:07]: Episode setup, introduction to Dulles brothers.
• [05:35–14:11]: Dulles family background, Nazi sympathies, start of career.
• [14:17–20:32]: Sullivan & Cromwell, Nazi affiliations, business dealings.
• [30:01–35:53]/[35:53–42:19]: Bank for International Settlements, laundering Nazi wealth, postwar ratlines.
• [42:19–52:15]: Reinhard Gehlen and CIA's use of Nazi intelligence networks.
• [55:39–62:02]: Angleton, JFK, Bay of Pigs, US–Israel–nuclear nexus.
• [83:05–90:25]: Dulles-Jackson-Correa Report, CIA structure and “Mein Kampf” analogy.
• [98:27–102:38]: Cold War logic, CIA regime change philosophy.
• [109:18–126:38]: Justification for US interventions, comparison to other colonial models.
• [144:53–156:46]: Agency organization, legal/illegal networks, class dynamics, recruitment.
• [160:07–166:26]: Angleton, Philby, the peril of class and trust in intelligence.
• [174:26–188:19]: JFK assassination, Allen Dulles’s exit, relationship with Israel.
• [227:49–254:28]: Reflections on modern US foreign policy, contemporary intelligence battles, potential for major conflict.
• [256:46–264:35]: Spiritual and ethical degeneration of American power.

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Conclusion

The conversation closes on a somber note, with a sense of spiritual dread about the contemporary decline of American power and conscience. There’s a repeated call for moral seriousness, a recognition of the enduring legacy (and dangers) of elite, opaque networks formed in the Dulles era, and a warning about ongoing “wars within” US government power structures.

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Further Reading / Referenced Works

• The Devil’s Chessboard by David Talbot
• Gentleman Spy by Peter Grose
• The Secret Team by L. Fletcher Prouty
• Tragedy and Hope by Carroll Quigley
• The Real CIA by Lyman Kirkpatrick
• The Arms of Krupp
• Cultural Cold War by Frances Stonor Saunders

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Note: Significant advertisements and non-content sections were omitted from this summary.
Language and tone: Consistently irreverent, direct, and rooted in dissident/right-wing critique.

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Transcript

[Stormy]

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[Pete Quinones]

Today I want to welcome everyone back to the Quinones show. Oh, we have a treat here. Two guys that love to do the deep dives. So let's try to keep this under three hours. Gentlemen. How you doing, Stormy?

[Stormy]

Doing well, Doing well.

[Pete Quinones]

What's going on, Philos?

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Everything's good in the hood.

[Pete Quinones]

Who wants to go first? We're. We're going to talk about a. We're going to get controversial again, but. And probably piss a bunch of people off. But, you know, I think that's what this show's for. So who wants to start this off?

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah, I'll just play it straight. So the essential information to know for the Dulles brothers is John Foster Dulles was an American Secretary of State and Alan Dulles was the Director of Central Intelligence from 1953 to 1961. That was concurrent with the time that J.F. dulles was Secretary of State. Now, you might assume that two men being brothers in high positions of power in the federal government would exercise some kind of undue influence on the foreign policy of the United States. And you would be correct. To go into the life of the Dulles brothers is to understand the trajectory of both the foreign policy of the United States from about the 40s through the late 60s, early 70s, but also to understand big changes, sweeping changes that occurred within the internal structure of the government. So I guess on this stream I'll kind of be the straight man presenting information from primary sources. I deliberately tried to stay away from especially very convoluted elements like Alan Dulles appointment to the Warren Commission, as well as the ultimate culpability upon him for the Bay of Pigs. But other than that, I'm happy to just kind of go through his life, the source material, to keep it short and not overwhelm the conversation. I was very fortunate to come across a trove of primary sources from the Deputy Chief of Staff for Logistics in the Military Assistance and Advisory Group. And that individual was the head of Walker Air Force base in the 1960s. And as we go into Al Fletcher Prouty's book, the Secret War, one thing that you'll understand is that the CIA had an extra component and that was its Defense Department, not so much equivalent, but its partner and how it conducts operations. So having a lot of these primary sources from a side of that organization that's intimately involved in the story is a bit of a treat. Very briefly, I'm just going to outline the sources so you know what I'm referencing, and these will come up again. For the early life of Alan Dulles, I'm citing Gentleman Spy by Peter Gross, as well as the Devil's Chessboard by David Talbot. For my more esoteric sources, I also have the Secret Team by L. Fletcher Prouty, as well as the Secret War by Sanchez de Gramont from 1962. I have a 1970s book, the man who Kept the Secrets about the CIA. I have Donovan and the CIA, which was the CIA's first external biography of itself and the OSS. And I also have the absolute classic and privilege of a first edition, first printing copy of Carol Quigley's Tragedy and Hope, which outlines the overall United States foreign policy in the 20th century. So those are my sources for this stream, and I'm happy to get into it.

[Pete Quinones]

You want to add anything before we. Before we start? Stormy?

[Stormy]

Yeah. Allen Dulles was. And John Foster Dulles was National Socialist sympathizers and American heroes. And we can take it from there.

[Pete Quinones]

All right, go ahead, philosopher.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Sure.

So in getting into the early life and biography of these men, and to be clear, this stream is primarily going to be focused more on Allen Dulles than John Foster.

But in looking at them, we also

have to consider that most biographies that are highly critical of the Dulles brothers and their activities are written by leftists. So the most recent and prominent of these biographies, the Devil's Chessboard, asserts that Alan Dulles is a pro Nazi sympathizer, which is true. And that he didn't do enough, even though he knew about the Holocaust, to stop German activities against Jews and so on and so forth. And if you're very sympathetic to that cause, then that book will be very enlightening. But if you're on our side of things, there's a trove of information within that book which suggests many more unknowns than are available in other conventional sources about the Dulles brothers. So I'm going to start with one book here, Gentleman Spy by Peter Gross.

So I guess you have to start

first off with Alan Dulles. His early life is straightforward wasp. He's one of five children of a Presbyterian minister. He is part of a very blue blooded aristocratic family. There's Wikipedia articles back, I think, four generations about his family. Stormy, you might know more on that. His maternal grandfather was Secretary of State. His uncle was Secretary of State under Woodrow Wilson, and Dulles went to Princeton University. So already starting out, he was destined for big things. Initially, his career began after he exited Princeton by a brief stint in Vienna, I believe, eight months, and then transferring over to Bern in Switzerland. And Switzerland is going to be a theme that pops up a bunch of the time in which he goes is immediately following World War I. And there's an issue of national displacement after World War I in Europe. So while he's at both Vienna and Bern, he starts interacting with people from all over the world in his capacity as a, I believe his technical title was a foreign service officer. I'd have to double check that. But going into it, his job is to gather and collect intelligence on the surroundings. He's collecting information upon people, dignitaries that are visiting the embassy. Since he's working for the State Department, he's primarily assisting people with things like immigration claims and that his function as the Foreign Office was that, you know, he'd have to occasionally help Jews. So very often there's very wealthy and powerful Jews. This was something pointed out in the Peter Gross biography. An interesting little anecdote that Dulles like to tell throughout his life was that he missed meeting Vladimir Lenin by just one day when Lenin was the leader of the Bolsheviks. So right before Lenin left for the Finland Station, he had arranged a meeting to come to the United States Embassy and have a meeting with Dulles. But Dulles, I believe, had some other obligation. Dulles loved that story, which is that you should never pass up an opportunity to meet people. And that's a theme that's going to happen again and again. Dulles is very good at his job. Well, he starts off as kind of a basic secretarial role. He quickly, in the State Department, rises to a position of prominence. I believe he's the second in command at this embassy. And his dispatches are of a significantly higher quality than his peers. So at this point in time in the. In 1918, 1919, Walter Lippmann has started reading the reports of Allen Dulles. This is right on the collapse of the Central Powers. And these dispatches stand out to Mr. Lippmann because the clarity and the insight that Dulles is noticing in the people and the circumstances around him. So Lippmann resolved to keep his eye on Dulles. Many things are happening at the conclusion of the war. On previous podcasts with Pete, I've brought up how Edward Bernays went to the Paris Peace Conference and, you know, a multitude of other diplomats and people that were responsible for World War II ultimately as well. Bernard Baruch goes. Colonel House also goes to Europe as well. And, well, Dulles, I don't think he's actually present at the Paris Peace Conference. But the information in the dispatches that are going from Dulles to Lippmann are used by Lippmann to persuade Colonel House that the collection of intelligence is an urgent priority and that if conventional diplomats don't have much interest in pursuing it, then there needs to be a shift and a change in how American intelligence operates. So I just want to very briefly elucidate the concepts of what intelligence is to help people understand what makes Alan Dulles role so special. So the way the intelligence process works is that you have a central mission, and in that mission, you have to collect data, you have to process and exploit it. You have to analyze and produce it, you have to disseminate it and to integrate it, and then that follows with planning and direction. So the role of Mr. Dulles as he's going and he's talking and he's meeting to people, these aren't casual acquaintances. Dulles is setting up a network within Switzerland that he's going to lean on in the 1920s and 30s as he goes through his career.

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[Philosopher (Philo)]

And let's see here. I have to. My sources are a little bit jumbled here. Other stuff. Do you want to take over for a minute, Stormy, or Pete?

[Pete Quinones]

Go ahead, Stormy. If you don't have anything, we can just wait for a minute.

[Stormy]

No, I was doing the thing where you talk into your microphone but don't realize that you're muted.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, that's sure. Professional. Every professional podcaster does that. Thank you.

[Stormy]

I am a professional now. I finally had my cherry popped. I didn't like it. So my. My knowledge of Dulles, Alan, and really John Foster happens when it starts when they get home from the Paris Peace conference. World War II is. Or, sorry, World War I is a distant memory. And they are at the law firm Sullivan and Cromwell. So I don't know if Philo is where you're going next, Sullivan and Cromwell, or.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

No, that's correct. But finance isn't really my area of expertise. I only know that he was generally pro Nazi. I have some other specific little anecdotes

[Stormy]

from that, but did you find your source? Yes, I have jump in there, take over, and I'll take it. In the post war years.

[Pete Quinones]

Oh, yeah, I found my source. Good job there.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

So he's at Sullivan and Cromwell, and at this time, he is making network connections to the Nazis. So the Nazis seize power in. In 1933, and. Let's fuck. I'm sorry, I'm screwing this all up. I'm looking through a source that's, like, totally jumbled.

[Stormy]

We should just wait and make it super awkward.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Okay, so here we go.

[Pete Quinones]

Here we go.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Found it. Found it. So Dolos is in Bern in Switzerland. And the reason that that matters is because both in World War II and in the interwar years, Dulles is making connections financially as well. So the Dulles brothers, their Wall street law firm is Sullivan and Cromwell, and that sits at a connective node between all these different international banks, investment firms, and industrial conglomerates. And During World War I, the German economy is totally devastated, and the rebuilding of that falls to these banks and industrial companies. And so there's a lot of US Investment that begins to go into German industrial giants like IG Farben, the chemical conglomerate, and Krupp Steel. There's a great book out there called the Arms of Krupp, which, to summarize, like, 2,000 pages of this history, this German steel company, it's entirely centered within the Ruhr, and they are producing the best quality steel in the planet for hundreds of years. So after World War I, US investment goes into Krupp Steel, which is an economic powerhouse for Germany. And because it's in the Ruhr, it requires French and British involvement. So the profits that are generated by these investments then go to France and Britain due to the Paris Peace Conference and the Versailles Treaty, These flow back in the form of war reparations and then also back to the United States to pay off war loans. And so Alan Dulles, his brother John Foster Dulles, he it's very, very lucrative to have these investments within Germany this summer.

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[Philosopher (Philo)]

and even after

Hitler takes power in the 1930s, John Foster is continuing to work with and do business with German companies like IG Farben. And he's donating money to America first, which is a isolationist party. Stormy, you've touched on it in other streams. Charles Lindbergh was kind of their avatar. And many Americans at this time, very prominent WASP Americans had a positive opinion of Hitler's Germany. And Foster refused to shut down the Berlin office of Sullivan and Cromwell in the 1930s. And he, he ordered the attorneys at this at his firm to sign their correspondence with Heil Hitler until His business partner, who's also his brother, Alan Dulles, grew increasingly worried about a public relations disaster. And then at a 1935 partners meeting at 48 Wall Street John Foster agreed to remove the Heil Hitler from the letters and apparently was so devastated by this that he broke down in tears because, you know, there's a lot of severing of German connections that have now been built up in the business world over the last 15 or so years since the end of World War I. And not all of the individuals that are working with the firm are being cut off intrinsically. It's still prior to World War II. So there's not as much of a need at this point. Prominent society people are still entertaining the Nazis. You have to remember also that for Most of the 1930s, the Nazis were very well received in the United States, like the Hindenburg. I mean, up until the disaster in 1938, it was this huge, positively received public gesture to see the Hindenburg flying with a huge swastika on its tail.

[Pete Quinones]

Let me. Let me jump in here for a second, because I told Thomas we were doing this, and he. He threw this in there. He said that Allen Dulles met with Hitler in 1933, one of the few Americans to do so, and said that he came away impressed.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

That's right. And that fact he kept secret from the successive director for the Central Intelligence Agency until he was on his deathbed, a guy called Richard Helms. So he kept it very private after the war that he had made and known so many different Nazi connections. And that's also why there's a huge gap in all the primary sources during the early Cold War. None of it. And I've looked through all of the sources in reference for any kind of German connection that was known during the early Cold War. The only thing that I was able to find was in a book detailing the rise of the OSS and wartime activities in World War II. There's a very brief footnote mentioning that at one meeting, Alan Dulles had to be away because he was negotiating with German diplomats. And that document, that primary source used in the book, was part of the Truman presidential archives and was marked as top Secret with compartmentalized clearance. And that was the one. That book itself was from the official history of the agency. So all of these other publicly accessible sources are included. But the CIA went through that book specifically with a fine tooth comb to remove any reference to any of the German dealings. So most of the references come from things that are way after the early

[Stormy]

publications about the history when was the book published?

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Donovan, the CIA? That is from 1980.

[Stormy]

And so after Kennedy.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah, the more recent one that reveals a lot of his German connections. That's from 2015. That's the David Talbot one about Devil's Chessboard.

[Stormy]

Yeah. What you want to do is check the Rockefeller archives for sure. That's where you'll find a lot of the German stuff. Because he and his brother only had one main client that they focused on. This is why the. The lefties hate him so much. Because, you know, if some pissant government of some pissant South American country wants to get uppity and nationalize a bunch of United Brood or Standard Oil stuff, the CIA would take time out of their day to you in the ass and take it all back and probably, you know, do bad stuff to you. So the lefties kind of give him all this because, like, oh, he was, you know, you know, a servant of, you know, capitalism or whatever. Now, he was a lifelong friend with David and Nelson Rockefeller and a lot of the business relationships between Standard Oil, which there are many, and the Third Reich. Bringing IBM in to the Third Reich, bringing Ford and General Motors in. A lot of the companies that you saw in the Third Reich got there because two of the top lawyers at Sullivan Cromwell and their largest client, John Rockefeller, wanted them there. It wasn't just John and Alan having these sympathies. This was the sympathy. I mean, Pete, you remember our episodes in the Robber Barons. And I think it was like second or third when we go through who all aligned against. I mean, this is shortly after FDR was place in power. But you had the entire upper crust of American society, Democrat and Republican, trying to tear this out of the office, including the guy who was the president of the Democratic Party and the previous presidential candidate, the guy that just put him in there because of who he brought with him. The communists, literal Communists, Jewish communists, underneath his little wheelchair. So it was vital for the ruling class of America while they were still ruling. It's not more than just kinship. This is a similar struggle. They viewed it as in their interest domestically to strengthen Germany domestically.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

And I have some. I have some evidence for that. Let's see, 1937. He says John Foster was impressed by a man who, from, quote, humble beginnings, has attained to the unquestioned leadership of a great nation. He also stated in 1939, Foster did, that Germany's position is morally superior to that of the Allies. Alan Dulles met face to face with Hitler in Hitler's Berlin office in March of 1933. He was ostensibly on a fact finding mission to Europe for President Roosevelt, but was particularly interested in determining what the rise of Hitler meant for his law firm's corporate interests. I disagree with the author on that. He probably already knows by this point what the firm's interests are in Germany, if he's been doing business with them for years. He was also impressed with Joseph Goebbels.

[Stormy]

Okay, so Pete, remember when we talked about how a lot of the people behind the American Liberty League. So this would be Henry Ford and. Jack Morgan and Irene dupont. Iree dupont, a longtime funder of hard right politics in the United States. Right. This is the businessman. This is like right at the time of the businessman's plot, so to speak.

[Pete Quinones]

Right.

[Stormy]

When these men, the Ro. The. And the Rockefeller brothers, obviously these men were also. What I mean, like these men. So like Morgan, Ford and. What's his name? Townsend? No, Thomas Philo. You found the. The. I remember after talking to you about this gentleman, Tom Lamont. There we go. Anyways, these men were sending several fact finding missions to three of the fascist nations at the exact same time. So I would be disappointed if I found out that Alan Dulles was on a state funded fact finding mission, you know, in the Third Reich and he was not also doing the exact same thing as in, you know, legal capacity, even though he was there at behest of Franklin Delano Roosevelt and the administration. He was also. The attorneys for a lot of these men and representatives and sorry, was their representative of their interests in Europe. Anyways, so to think that Allen Dulles was not on a similar fact finding mission in relationship to how these fascist governments came about, how they thwarted a communist revolution and instead brought in something new. Because at the same exact time, Morgan and Iri Dupont are spending six or seven million dollars, the equivalent of, you know, at the time, four or five billion dollars today, sending, you know, groups of people, all with varying expertise, historians, linguists, not like propaganda and like media wasn't a thing yet. So you got like, they sent writers, they wanted, like messaging, like these guys were actively studying fascism and how to bring it about. At the exact same time as Alan Dulles is on a fact finding mission in the Third Reich, the lawyer that represents all of these men in their business capacity back in the States. There's no way he was not doing the exact same thing. I'm sure he told Roosevelt he was fact finding some other shit.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

What do you know about the bank for International Settlements?

[Stormy]

A lot.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Okay. Because that's, that's coming up next is that I Bet it is that. One of Dulles most important contacts was a guy called Thomas McKittrick who was a Wall street friend of his who was the president of the bank for International Settlements.

[Stormy]

What was he the president of before that?

[Philosopher (Philo)]

I'd have to look it up. If you know offhand

[Stormy]

a bank

[Pete Quinones]

and

[Stormy]

financial institution you'd have heard of.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Let's see here.

[Stormy]

I don't know if he was president of

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Lee Higginson and Company.

[Stormy]

Yes.

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Okay.

[Stormy]

Which would now be C and Company. So bank of International Settlements, my friends, is a sovereign nation. They issue their own passports. They have diplomatic immunity. They have diplomatic cable immunity. They are, for all intent and purpose, diplomatically and otherwise, a sovereign entity. They're as much of a country as Liechtenstein is, even though they're just a building, like 14 or 15 floors. So they get to do, you know, diplomatic stuff, as in, like, move people to places. Move things from place to place with. Without them being interfered with. The bank of International Settlements got a lot of the Nazi leader, the person. I can't prove this, but I believe like my favorite, you know, SS Upper Crustman Bober Group and furor. Hans Kamler, the man that was in charge of the Kamlo Stadt, the 50 square miles in Poland that Los Alamos and the Manhattan Project and later DARPA were based on.

[Pete Quinones]

Right.

[Stormy]

His. The. The accounts of his death are really, really, really, really sketchy. But I know a lot of other Nazi leadership below Han over group inferior. They got out of the country through the bis. This is actually where the fondness for Argentina came from is the bis. I believe they were restructuring the Central bank of Argentina at the end of the war anyways. But between that and Dulles work in Italy with propaganda due Ballpark. We're talking about thousands of Third Reich officers and bureaucrats of various levels, like actual party people got out of the country because of Allen Dulles.

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[Stormy]

a drop in a bucket of what he was doing. We didn't just take scientists. Thanks to Alan Dulles, we took hundreds of thousands of people out of the Third Reich before the Soviets put them in camps and shot them. So for anyone that says that Allen Dulles isn't down for the cause, at great risk to himself, both physically in post World War II Berlin and professionally, he made it a priority of Sullivan and Cromwell and all of the businesses that Sullivan and Cromwell represented that were in there. I know it came out that a lot of. I think it was like four or five relatively high ranking, not super duper high rankings. Again, those people are all on lists. Came out when IBM pulled its people out. And I believe the same for Standard Oil. He was also the one that set up, that leaned on Rome heavily, using the BIS because the BIS was doing the banking for the Papacy, I believe, at the time. And through the leverage provided, or basically through the leverage that the BIS had over Rome made the Catholic Church down for the cause, even though they weren't super down for the cause. But yeah, BIS is, is, is a diplomatic entity. Follow. Now everybody thinks it's just a bank.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah, I can go a little bit more into their specific operations leading into World War II. So they were five of its directors for BIS were later at the end of the war, charged with war crimes. That was IG Farben and one of the one. Let's see here. The secretive BIS became the crucial financial partner for the Nazis. The vice president of the Reichsbank, Emil Poole, who was a close associate of McKittrick, once called bis the Reichsbank only the only foreign branch. It was responsible for a lot of the Nazi gold management within Switzerland. One thing is that BIS is located within Switzerland. That's not a coincidence. All the kind of. That kind of like trite frame that like all phrasing that all the Nazi gold is in Switzerland accumulated during the war. I would presume that that's because of BIS. Dulles is very, very close to McKittrick at the start and continuing through the war. And Both Dulles and McKittrick are not popular with either FDR's inner circle or FDR's Treasury Secretary, Henry Morgenthau. And there was a time where the Roosevelt administration moved to block bank for International Settlement funds within the United States. McKittrick hired Foster Doulas as the legal counsel who successfully intervened on the bank's behalf. Morgenthau was outraged in the winter of 1942 when McKittrick made a business trip to the United States and was warmly welcomed by Wall Street. These are the executives of several corporations such as General Motors and Standard Oil. They had profited from doing business with the Nazis. And a banquet was held for McKinrick's honor at the New York University Club on December 17th. Morgenthau then tried to prevent McKendrick from exiting the United States to return to BIS headquarters in Switzerland on the grounds that the bank was very clearly aiding the Nazi war effort. Vice versa. Alan Dulles came to McKittrick's rescue and was able to get him on an April 1943 flight to Europe. If you know about aviation at the time, it is very, very hard to fly transatlantic during World War II. You need a lot of permissions to do that. Dulse and McKittrick continue to work closely for the rest of the war. They what is this project? Safe Haven. Morgenthau's Treasury Department, which was trying to confiscate a lot of the wealth of the Nazis. Dulson, McKittrick within OSS and BIS respectively worked to protect Nazi commodity interests after the war. And Dulles believed that a lot of these powerful German figures should be returned to political power within the post war period. One interesting thing at the end of the war as an anecdote is that Alan Dulles when, when peace with Germany, when kind of the overall this is like after the war, but pre Nuremberg. Dulles is advocating for a restoration of many Nazi officials within Germany. He doesn't want the Germans to unconditionally and fully surrender and then be for whatever we're criminally charged, which at Nuremberg is just bullshit. A lot of, you know, McKittrick and the bank of International Settlements had a lot of problems with Morgenthau essentially looting Germany. And my earlier stream with forestall on, you know, Morgenthau wanted Germany left destitute. It's obvious that Morgenthau's treasury was going to seize that wealth for Jewish interests away from major German corporations. So throughout the war it seems that there's this, this kind of behind the scenes financial war between BIS and other banking interests behind the Roosevelt administration.

[Stormy]

That's interesting. I wonder if any of that gold that they would have tried to take would have actually made it to the destination as they said, or if it would get lost. Because I've for a long time basically viewed it as Morgenthau's attempt at trying to get at the gold just to be another looting attempt that these people are quite famous for. Because at this point the Germans have accumulated quite a Bit of gold and quite a bit of property as far as rare art, things like that. The BIS was actually kind of critical in keeping a lot of that stuff hidden. Majority of the gold never got. Well, I'm assuming maybe CIA has it, I don't know. But Dulles is. I mean, so often. And not just Astral. Hope he listens to this. It's not just Astral I have to constantly argue this point with, but I have to argue this point with a lot. Like a lot of accounts. There are people that refuse to believe that this guy was anything other than a shitlib at best and a regime collaborator at worst. I mean, is that that point is untenable. I don't know what your thoughts are, Philo, but is there any way to read what the documents that you've gone through and remotely see Alan Dulles as anything other than extremely sympathetic, if not outright supportive of the Third Reich?

[Philosopher (Philo)]

I don't think there. So I mean, there's not another way to look at it. Especially with this, this David Talbot book. If I didn't have access to the other sources, it would be a little trickier.

[Stormy]

But what about Reinhardt Galen? Let's talk about him.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

I'd have to look him up.

[Stormy]

Hold on, I got you. Reinhardt Galen was the head of Nazi intelligence.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Oh, I have something on him.

[Pete Quinones]

I hear.

[Stormy]

Yeah. Reinhardt didn't just preserve Galen. He didn't keep Galen out of the noose. He kept the entire National Socialist intelligence apparatus intact because he said he needed a fight. Because now, like Patent. Like patent had already figured out before him. Actually not. It's not that. Oh, we found out later that we were going to be at war with the Soviets next or that the Soviets weren't our friends. And this was a surprise. Almost everyone in the American establishment, the military and defense establishment, they knew this from the beginning of World War II. What they couldn't stop is an administration that was sympathetic to the communists. At no point in time did we think that you were either a communist collaborator inside the US government, which Roosevelt, and it really stims his whole team very much was, or you basically knew that these people were going to be our enemy immediately afterwards. And by afterwards, I don't mean the end of World War II. I mean as soon as we can get this guy FDR out of office.

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[Stormy]

I think there was absolutely no illusions of that. So the entire administration. Hold on one second.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

I have a source pulled up for Galen. When Stormy's ready.

[Pete Quinones]

Cat removal.

[Stormy]

Exactly. Cat removal. She doesn't get to hang out anymore. She's lost her inside privileges. I was told that like that men that have cats are men that get women and men that don't, don't. I surely Hope so because 100% opposition is significantly diminished.

[Pete Quinones]

If that's not the case, it's absolutely 100% true.

[Stormy]

I think so.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

I have a wife and a cat, but they were a package deal.

[Stormy]

Oh, so you're actually lucky then.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

I wouldn't say it was luck.

[Stormy]

Well, I mean I, I would because you didn't have a cap before, so you obviously didn't understand women. So I said I would say luck is probably accurate that, you know, she was dumb enough to marry you. You're a very lucky guy.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

I would say that.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

I'd agree with that. Yeah. Richard Galen.

[Pete Quinones]

I have a little.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Reinhard Galen. Excuse me. So funny little anecdote about him. He was at the 1951 World Series with his CIA handler and he went there because one of his advisors was some kind of autistic savant who had memorized all these different baseball statistics and, you know, understanding Reinhard Galen. So during the war, Galen had served as Hitler's intelligence chief on the eastern front of the flamed here Aust apparatus. They were looking for weaknesses in the Soviet defenses. Let's see here. Most. So he was in charge of extracting a lot of the intelligence out of the Soviet prisoners of war. And he eventually rose upward to become a major general. The big deal with him was that at the end of the war when he was realizing that things were, you know, that the Germans were beat, he concluded that the U.S. soviet alliance that was temporary during the war would split and that some of the Nazi hierarchy would be able to survive by journeying forces with the west against Moscow. That's very common. A lot of Germans, very intelligent. There's a story about a, a fighter pilot, a German ace who flew into a American air base in Germany as the Americans controlled parts of Germany. And a lot of high ranking people would much rather work with the Americans than get killed by the Soviets. That was the blunt alternative of it. Because he went around the Bavarian mountains at the end of the war, he was able to bury cases of microfilm containing Nazi intelligence in the Soviet Union. He then leveraged his expertise and connections within Eastern Europe built up during the Eastern Front offensive, to convince US military officials that he was indispensable. So he, unlike other German captives who get temporarily interned within the US Midwest, or worse yet, sent to BS tribunals, he got transported out on a DC3. And he was moved into comfortable quarters at Fort Hunt, Virginia. And there he was introduced personally to Alan Dulles, who decided on the spot to bring Mr. Gellen into US government operation. So they were then sent back to Germany in the service of the United States. And they were centered in Pulak, a village near Munich. And that began to lawson into the Gellen Organization, which was then West Germany's principal Intelligence Agency in 1948. The CIA then takes over the supervision of the Gellen organization from the U.S. army. And it becomes very clear, you know, Gellen promised the army officials he wouldn't hire anybody from the SS or Gestapo. But of course, as it grows and you need the most competent people, Those are the most competent men. So he hires all these different SS figures, and especially as they're starting to get released from U.S. army detainment after the war in the late 1940s, they're getting hired. Some people within the CIA wanted to liquidate Gallon's operation, but it was shielded by Dulles. His backing was primarily from the dulles faction in 1948. You know, the person directly put in charge of monitoring all of Gelin's activities at the CIA in Munich was a direct appointee by Dulles. And that this individual concluded that Gallen's intel organization is performing phenomenally with 200 top staff and their wives and children living in this intelligence compound outside Munich.

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[Philosopher (Philo)]

And it the decor of the. The main facility had a lot of, you know, Nazi adornment on the building, which, if you know anything about the denazification programs, that was like exceptionally Rare they went throughout Germany destroying every Nazi symbol they could find. And the Germans and Americans that were working together at this installation in the early history of the CIA grew very close. The Germans and Americans working together there, their families were going on skiing trips in the Bavarian Alps. And let's see, where do I go from here? His overriding goal, Galen's goal, was to rebuild the Nazi power network and return Germany to a dominant role on the European stage. One interesting thing to know, as Thomas brings up occasionally, is that it was made illegal to be right wing after Nuremberg in 1945, and it was exceptionally illegal to be a Nazi in Germany. Let's see, what am I else? Everybody. All the Americans, from what I can tell in the CIA documentation that worked with Gellen had very positive opinions of him to the point where they facilitated him going to the 1951 World Series because they, Gellen's aid liked baseball and what else is there? The 1951 trip to America was. Gallen was given the codename Utility, which I think is very interesting. So he's, he's very good at what he does.

And he also.

On October 8, 1951, during this trip to the United States, Gellen also attends a private dinner club with Germans and several CIA officers as well as Richard Helms, who had run the US intelligence operations in Germany after the war and also succeeds Dulles up after his resignation in the early 1960s. Let's see. Yeah, all of. So Dulles, interestingly enough, had invited Galen to all of his different clubs. The Metropolitan Club, the Chevy Chase Club. Any time that the German spymaster visits Washington, Dulles has this kind of open door policy that's not unique to just his relationship with Gellen. He's also, like throughout his life, Dulles is very open with how he's meeting people. What happens to this gellen organization in 1955? They are, let's see, late 1954, Dulles gets Gellen's eldest daughter into a good US college and then so she gets admitted to Hunter College in New York City. This is like totally unprecedented for the time to have this tide of a relationship. In 1955, as the CIA prepares to transfer the Gellin organization back to the West German government, the agency generously gave him enough money to buy a lakeside estate. And they Gellen purchased, allegedly, it was probably more likely a gift of about a $50,000 estate. Gelin's codename for Dulles was the Gentleman. Gelin wrote in his memoir. In all the years of my collaboration with the CIA, I had no Personal disputes with Dolan. He pleased me by his air of wisdom born of years of experience. He was both fatherly and boisterous. And he became a close personal friend of mine. What other items are here? Whenever Gellon saw that US government policy about the Soviet Union was beginning to soften or weaken in its rhetoric, the Gellen organization would decry it. And you know the Soviet Union. Gellen said that the Soviet Union enticed you with this and that, but underneath its skirt one will see the cloven hoof of the devil. What else is there? Alan Dulles had a soft spot in his heart for the good Germans. J. Edgar Hoover was also present. What other items are there? I think that's kind of all that I have to say on Gellen, other than he was extremely active as a West German spymaster and that he was worried about kind of the softening also of Germany.

[Stormy]

And his intelligence reports. Because let's keep in mind, the after rose and I think again, the more and more I think back and I. I tie back different things. Like I haven't thought about Gelin in forever. But it reminded me that the CIA, ever since Dulles was pushed out of the agency he created by a man by the name of who I've been screaming about for some time, but has now recently come back into the spotlight with the JFK document releases one James Jesus Angleton. If you want to know who pushed Alan Dulles out of the CIA, it was James Jesus Singleton. Shortly before JFK was murdered. JFK did not have any JFK's beef with Dulles or with. With the CIA had very little to do with Dulles, had nothing to do with Vietnam or the Bay of Pigs. Even the Bay of Pigs wasn't a failure. All of the guns that were supposed to be going to the bay, to the Cuban resistance fighters, were actually being stolen for Israel out of a shipping

[John Daly]

and

[Stormy]

whatchamacallit company, import export company out of. Out of Virginia. And Alan got word of it, literally, I believe, I think the night before, the day before, and went to Kennedy with it. So Kennedy knew why the Bay of Pigs was a failure. He didn't. Neither of them knew in time to stop it. But guess who was in charge of the Bay of Pigs? James Jesus Angleton. Along with all the other stuff that he did when the f. But not to get sidetracked. Like there was no daylight really between Dulles and jfk. Except for nuclear disarmament. He went way over the top, really. To be honest, I don't think a lot of Us today realize how much we probably would have disliked JFK if he had lived. He probably would have gone down as a, as a Jimmy Carter, but dumber. He was so serious about nuclear disarmament. After the Cuban Missile crisis, he was having back channel conversations with Khrushchev about, about both countries nuclear disarmament, you know, intentions.

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[Stormy]

both men agreed that the priorities of the Soviet Union and the priorities of America needed to be nuclear force reduction and eventual disarmament. And Khrushchev obviously saying he's going to get a lot of pushback and whatever. That's why they had to use back channels, just the two of them. So not Soviet back channels and not like American back channels, but like jfk, familial relationships talking to Khrushchev. Familial relationships outside of their own intelligence agencies and national apparatuses. Kennedy was going to start disarming first as a show of goodwill, like, oh yeah, well, let's get rid of our nukes and that. That's how you'll know we're, we're legit. If you have trouble selling it to the rest of the Politburo, it'll be much easier when we just get rid of our own nukes. And Alan got wind of this and so did the Pentagon type people. And basically that's where the static came from, which is also where a lot of the static between JFK and David Ben Gurion came from. Because, you know, trying to disarm the Soviets only to find out that nuclear armament, rapid armaments happening in Israel from all the shit that they stole from you. So that's where the beef was. All of the stuff that you've read about Douglas and the njfk, dear listeners, is bullshit almost in its entirety. Because if you talk about nuclear, if you talk about what the real disconnect was, you're going to land on Israel because it's all about disarm. It's all about nuclear non proliferation. Sorry. Corey Hughes's book is probably the best on it. I think he did a recent podcast with Astral and the one he did with Jake Shields is really good, at least like the last 15 minutes. Talks exactly about what we're talking about now and cites all the sources. And his research is really impossible to argue with. And he basically tells you exactly what the relationship is with Douglas and jfk and it's not what you're told. This is also why he went on the Warren Commission, right? So like after the death of JFK and Lyndon Johnson. All right, so if you're Ellen Dulles, the guy that's been openly supportive of the Third Reich. You and your brother openly hostile the state of Israel. You and the now previous dead president were in the process of trying to stop nuclear armed proliferation by the state of Israel that stole the nuclear materials. Like there's like 10 guys that know what the actual story is. And the guy with all the political power, JFK is dead and an a person who is an actual traitor and pussy whipped by a urgun terrorist is in the White House and Jewish power has just like wiped off the face of the earth jfk.

[Pete Quinones]

And

[Stormy]

very little attention gets given to outside of JFK and RFK about the, I don't know, dozen and a half, two dozen other people that were in lower positions but also had all of the same information and the same exact idea of like oh this needs to be stopped. There's probably about 20 assassinations in the JFK assassination. So if you're Allen Dulles and you're in your 70s or like late 60s, what the fuck are you going to do? You're going to be an old man that has an accident. Which is what I'm assuming he was told. Because the day after JFK's assassination, Alan had already been pushed out of the CIA by a, whatever I'm trying to think of the term for it. If it was geopolitical I'd call it a false flag. But planting of evidence and fuckery by Angleton, his subordinate, he basically set up a little mini private CIA out of his living room with all the guys that got pushed out by Angleton and a bunch of guys still at the agency trying to figure out what the had happened. And as soon as LBJ got into that White House, somebody apparently had a conversation with Alan and he closed up shop immediately. So it's not like, it's not like they didn't know what's happening. It's not like they didn't try and push back. But at that point in time they have all the cards. Like you know, at that point in time resistance to organized Zionism was impossible.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Well in the building up of it as well, like if you recall from the Forrestal stream, LBJ met with Forrestal in the mental hospital along with all the other pro Zionist elements that were in Truman's administration at the time. That was in 1948, 1949.

[Stormy]

Oh yeah, it was open season on anybody that was against the Zionist agenda. And they had all the political power to basically. And you had what's his face in the, in the Supreme Court like they could basically torment you out in public and there was nothing you could do about it. That was a real dark period of time.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

There was an interesting.

I guess there's many.

There's three different angles. I could kind of go. I'm going to start with the Angleton one and then go into Israel and also nuclear, I suppose, to know about Angleton. He was.

[Stormy]

Did you ever find that monument I told you about?

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah, I have it. I pulled up as you were talking about it. Yeah, I can tell you.

[Stormy]

Isn't that fucking weird?

[Philosopher (Philo)]

All right, so for those who don't know within. So it's located at Lechov Belay at Yemen. Moshe. So this is a place that is immediately adjacent to the King David Hotel, which I think is very strange. It's in the. It's located in all these key like. Like a park complex very close to Mount Zion and also next to like these large. The Menachem Bacon Heritage center, which is interesting. But he has this little corner in this park and to know about it.

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[Philosopher (Philo)]

The park is located in a spot. I'm getting this off of the Jerusalem foundation website. The park is located in a spot Angleton visited and admired in the early 1960s when it bordered on the barbed wire fence that divided the city. The project was initiated by the then mayor of Jerusalem, Teddy Kollek, the Defense Minister, Yitzhak Rabin, who later became the prime minister and then was assassinated, and also the head of the Shin Bet, Amos Mano. And the Shin Bet is the. That's like the FBI equivalent within Israel. So there's the Mossad, which is kind of the CIA equivalent, and then the Shin Bet is FBI. This little corner for Angleton is one of four small memorial gardens. Another one is the Rothschild. Rothschild sitting corner. So the location there is very. Is very telling. I mean, it is like it's the nearest park over to the King David, which if you know about the history of Israel, that was where the I think the Ilgun blew up the hotel to kill a lot of British soldiers prior to Israel being created. Yeah.

[Stormy]

And they're big into something called a practice called geomancy.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah. Yep, yep. This is true personal experience on this. Like, there's. There's four. Without getting to a cult, there's four cities within Israel that each correspond to elements and the mysticism there. And they're like,

[Stormy]

yeah, demon shit.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

But I don't want to. Anyway, the last thing I'll say about. I mean, kind of the first. There's so many things to say about this. The joke in Israel when I was there was that there was a textile factory in Dimona, and that was code for the nuclear site. So it's an open secret that when Israel was getting its nuclear arsenal that was set up at Dimona in Israel. And then, golly, okay, so that's the Israel stuff. That's Angleton.

[Stormy]

I can kind of go, who was. Who was the person that got caught, but whose apprehension was deliberately thwarted by one. James uses Angleton. Right. So the. One of the interesting intelligence documents that came out that I didn't know because I knew about, like, all the Angleton stuff just from, like, you know, like, stories I would hear. And what I did not know is that James Jesus Angleton without. I'm. I'm almost. I can guarantee that Alan Dulles was unaware of this, but James went to the FBI and told the FBI that Allen wants him in charge of everything, Israel and Israeli intelligence, because at this point, and that everything that the FBI collects should be brought to him directly, not through, like, the other official channels, because the FBI had channels with the CIA. And if they, you know, we're working on, you know, come across some counterintelligence stuff, like, oh, FBI thinks that, like, these people are a bunch of spooks. Okay, we'll go tell the guys that are our spooks, okay? Like, they have official channels for that. Angleton wanted it to. Not like that. He said, on orders of Allen Dulles directly from the top, we're not to bring any of the Israel stuff and any of the stuff that you guys find on, you know, any suspected Israeli intelligence agents operating in the US that needs to come directly to me, and I am going to bring it right to Alan directly because we think there's a mole. Well, so what was. What was James Jesus Angleton's job? He gave him this free reign. Why, like, why was he this person with that, you know, out of pocket

[Philosopher (Philo)]

all the time, was the principal agency liaison for the Foreign intel services.

[Stormy]

Yeah, but he was also the per. At the time. At the time, the CIA knew that they had a mole and someone was giving something to the Soviet. It was somebody was giving information to the Soviets. Guess who?

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A.

[Stormy]

A person other than Alan Dulles. But I believe a genuinely good person, not an evil person. Suggested one James Jesus Angleton to be the person that finds the mole. Except for James Jesus Angleton was an asset for Israeli intelligence. Like, well, that's not Soviet intelligence, is it? Except it was. We didn't have a Soviet mole. We had an Israeli mole. And Israel, the nation, was our Soviet mole. Because James D. Z. Engleton, at the end of every single day, would spend two hours talking to a florist that had a. That whose shop was on his walk home every. Nobody suspected it. Like nobody bothered to hey, there's a florist owned by a foreign national and the mole hunter of the CIA hunting. He stops by this same florist and talks for two hours every day. And James doesn't have any fucking flowers. He doesn't even have plants at his house. Where the fuck is he talking like, nobody asked these questions, but anyways. So the person who he was talking to, I can't remember his name, but I believe he would later become head of Israeli intelligence for a period of time. But the person that got. Sorry. Was the person that almost got arrested by the FBI, but James Jesus Engleton stepped in and stopped the FBI arresting him. When caught stealing Krytron triggers from, you know, the naval docks in California, Southern California was one Bibi Netanyahu, Young BB was the person that stole the other half of the nuclear bomb. And he would have gotten caught because the FBI had him pretty well stitched up. They also had Demona pretty well stitched up. And the only reason Benjamin Netanyahu wasn't on the front page of every newspaper in the country was James Jesus Angleton. Kind of like your. Your little quip about, like, oh, and there was a time like, you know, I should have taken that meeting. I would have saw Lennon and I could have put a bullet in. Imagine what the world would have been like if Benjamin Netanyahu was still rotting away in some fucking Gitmo place. And the last, I don't know, 20 years, 30 years didn't happen.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

It's hard to tell.

They wouldn't have the resources to pull a Jonathan Pollard and get him extradited. That whole ability to do espionage would be neutered. I, I can I flesh out. I'm a little more stuff for Would

[Stormy]

have lost their guy.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah.

[Stormy]

Anyways, sorry, I think it's, it's interesting

[Philosopher (Philo)]

because what was the party. I don't want to screw up with my Zionist history here, but there's a reason, I think Yitzchak Rabin commissioned a statue when he was defense chief, not Prime Minister, Defense chief of England.

[Stormy]

A political party in Israel. Likud.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Shit. Is that. Yeah.

[Stormy]

Or are you talking about the opposition party that was only in office one time?

[Philosopher (Philo)]

So generally it was like broadly leftist. Until 1977 it was Mapael Vada and then they switched in 1977 to Menachem Begin and they've been like pretty much solidly liquid ever since. So yeah, Rabin is.

[Stormy]

Yeah, it's been a one party state ever since.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah, they, they, they split hairs domestically about this. But yes, for the purposes of the coalition, it is a one party state.

[Stormy]

Is that any different than what they do in the United States?

[Philosopher (Philo)]

No.

[Stormy]

What really is the difference between a Democrat and a Republican? What really is it like? Oh, these are the things that we're going to debate fiercely on and make it look like we hate each other and we disagree about everything, but in fact we agree about everything and we pretend to disagree loudly about this thing and we only do it in front of you.

[Pete Quinones]

At least the Reich didn't fake it. At least they said all other parties are illegal. You're either with us or you're against us.

[Stormy]

Because it always devolves down to this.

[Pete Quinones]

Always.

[Stormy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

I'd like to flesh a little bit more circumstantial stuff about Angleton and then get into like agency structure. Angleton was put in charge of the CIA's relationship with the FBI. There's a big rivalry at this time between FBI and CIA. Angleton was also pursuing a CIA partnership with the Mafia. Who are some of these people that we're getting involved with? According to this, Angleton's work also brought him into close contact with the agency's rougher characters, including Sheff Edwards security cops who helped install his bugs, and Bill Harvey, who was prominent in a number of the agencies assassination jobs. Angleton. Shortly after Fidel Castro took power in Havana, he summoned two Jewish CIA officers, including Sam Halpern, who had been assigned to the agency's Cuba team. And the other one isn't mentioned. And then both of them were flown to Miami and set to meet with Meyer Lansky, who've been forced to flee Havana ahead of the revolutionaries. Lansky was part of the Jewish mob, but had close business ties to the Italian Mafia. Angleton told Halpern and the other Jewish CIA agent to see if they could convince Lansky to arrange for the assassination of Castro. It's.

It's kind of overblown at this point,

but people like to talk, especially in the left, about how many times the Agency tried to kill Castro by, like, pouring stuff in his drink and giving him an explosive cigar or whatever else the deal was. But I did not know that Angleton was so prominently involved with this.

[Stormy]

Yeah. Corey Hughes also documents kind of conclusively that all of that stuff about us trying to assassinate Castro was bullshit. If you hear the. I mean. And when he says it, you're like, that's not true. And then you think about it. If you know, like, anything about how propaganda works, you're like, oh, fuck. God damn it. Like, whenever you hear public like that, there's. I mean, if it's like a cultural meme about, like, the silly cartoonish Looney Tunes Acme fucking exploding cigar things that the CIA tried to do to kill Castro, that should tell you that the CIA is lying to you.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Stormy]

Just off. Off, R.I.P. they were the CIA after Dulles. I mean, they made it illegal to be right wing after Nuremberg and after Dulles, they made it policy in the CIA. The only reason that fucking bearded fuck lived as long as he did is because of the CIA. They've been a fucking leftist institution ever since. Ever since Dulles. Once the WASPS were purged, everything in that involves foreign policy out of the United States is leftist. If it's an institution that deals with anything outside of our borders after Dulles, and I guess you say maybe, maybe no. Even. Even. Still no after Dulles and the executive branch is already fucking compromised. Second, Nixon starts to try and do his own foreign policy. Nobody told. Nobody gave him an update, like, oh, by the way, we only do leftist shit internationally. Second, he tries to conduct his own foreign policy. You gotta go. It's. It's been a leftist institution ever since. CIA is basically a total loss. Now,

[Philosopher (Philo)]

is this a good time to bring up Secret Team by Fletcher Prouty?

[Stormy]

It's always a good time to talk about the Secret Team.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Okay, sure.

[Stormy]

It's an important thing for people to know, so everyone should pay attention to this bit because it still applies today. Just because a person is doing fuckery out of Agency X does not mean that they are an Agency X person. And that is an Agency X agenda. Sure. They may be from somewhere else.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

So there's. There's two interesting points before I start here. The first is that like something you can Google when you find the CIA reading room is that there's a reading list for all of the different, you know, introductory officers to the Agency.

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[Philosopher (Philo)]

And that they have to read a lot about the Agency's history and, but particularly they have to read about the oss. And if you know about the oss, you'll know that there is a bit of a delineation between like intelligence collection that the Agency is doing and covert operations that the OSS is doing. And another thing to bear in mind about this information, because the book I'm referencing was published in 1970, is that prior to the mid-1970s, the agency did not button up all of its top secret information as tightly as it does now currently. You know, if something is classified within the Agency, you're not going to ever get your hands on it. But back in the day, in the 40s, 50s and 60s, because there's this big confluence of different agencies and the CIA is still forging its identity and clawing resources away from other federal departments, there's kind of missed overlaps of compartmentalization for security or clandestine reasons.

So that's how

someone like L. Fletcher Prouty can exist. And also that he can present the information that he does in a way where it's not censored. So to understand who this man was, L. Fletcher Prouty worked as the focal point officer for contacts between CIA and DoD on matters pertaining to the military support of the agency's special operations. He personally worked with Allen Dulles and John Foster Dulles. He recommends a series of books. I have some of them, not all of them, but he says that there's only a handful of books that really tell the true story of the Agency. There's an interesting inference to one of Dulles famous quotes starting right off the bat from Prouty. The first is that Alan Dulles is quoted as saying that intelligence is about 10% real intel and the other 90% or so is clandestine operations. What that sets up for Prouty is that Dulles believes that the Agency is operating around the world all the time, countering all aspects of the invisible war. What this means is essentially intervening in the internal affairs of other nations without their knowledge or their permission, beginning in both Berlin and Iran in the late 1940s and continuing all the way through until Vietnam. That, Prouty argues, began as a major intelligence operation. Much of what this Central Intelligence Agency, as it is today, has become because of Alan Dulles. So to understand the overall function of it, one document in my research that I pulled up was something called the Dulles Jackson Correa report. It's from 1949, and it follows the official creation of the Agency after the national security Act of 1947. That's the document that formally creates it, but it's very specific. It's very compartmentalized in the functions that it grants for the intelligence operations. Previously, it was something that was done under direct supervision of the. Under the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Go back to forestall. You'll see that the intelligence capacities of the War Department were very explicitly by Forstall recommended as Secretary of Defense, to be directly supervised by Joint. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. What this Dulles Jackson Correa report that primarily Dulles writes and has put out on January 1st of 1949, is that this is like the blueprint. How I, as head of CIA, am going to set up, design and internalize the agency's responsibilities for it to function in exactly the manner that I wish it to function as, not as it is explicitly set up in previous government documentation in the national security Act of 1947. Just make that complex point very simple. The federal government in the late 1940s, after World War II, transitions from OSS to CIA through it. It goes through a series of bureaucratic processes. It gets stymied, it gets changed. Congressmen at various points, edit it, alter it. The Agency is in a big period of transition. So there's four directors of Central Intelligence before Dulles, but it's essentially this underutilized government agency.

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[Philosopher (Philo)]

until Dulles writes this plan, publishes it in 1949, and that as he presents it to Truman, it's essentially. Your audio is coming through Stormy.

[John Daly]

My bad.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

It's all good.

It's all good. The Dulles Jackson career Report then comes out. It's now Dulles, his agency, he is appointed after Korea, after the Korean War, is kind of an intelligence failure to run and oversee this. And that is where. Sorry, I'm like really over complicating this because there's just so much detail. So, okay, the Dulles Jackson Correa report was the CIA's Mein Kampf. Dulles describes exactly how he's taking this from a low key intelligence coordination center to a major power center in the U.S. government. And he can therefore position himself as the closest advisor to the President. So the function of this secret intelligence organization is to have a top echelon operations facility at the White House level, a hidden infrastructure throughout other departments and agencies of the government, and also the greatest operational capability all over the world. So when you read about cold war era agency facilities, they're located everywhere on the planet. And so how this comes to be done from Dulles is that in the report in 1949, he recommends a daily 24 hour briefing being presented to the President and that the best information and actionable and operationalized intel should be collaborated on and presented solely by the CIA for the reception of the President. Now, why something as bureaucratic as that matters is that the agency has direct control over what the President sees. And therefore they are the only organization in a position to set forth the response to the intelligence. So intel comes in, the CIA produces it, they recommend a plan of action to the President, the President signs off on it, the CIA executes it. It's a cycle. And that is what establishes the agency into the most powerful organization in the United States government outside of the DoD. Because the DoD does not have such direct access to the President. They have to go through the Joint Chiefs of Staff, which is much more of a council and which is much more hierarchical and is generally presumed to be and assigned to be nonpartisan. But the CIA has no such limitations.

[Stormy]

So

[Philosopher (Philo)]

let's see here. What is there to glean from this? Rowdy is monitoring the agency. So, okay, so you've created all these different departments and the agency has control and the ear of the President. But what happens when the President wants to derive information from dod? Well, the agency can just put somebody in the dod.

And if that sounds Insane.

I'm going to give a real world example. The way that the Agency operationalized its offensive capabilities was by working with a rowdy as a focal point officer. So he has to sign off on all the special operations and the agency itself, yes, it can purchase planes. But imagine if you have a CIA pilot, a CIA, you know, team of operatives.

You have a CIA electronics warfare or

like decoder on that plane and that

plane gets shot down.

Well, now you're fucked because the enemy country can look at it and see that, you know, you can't have an ID in one of those guys pocket that says CIA. It has to have something else. So they would either use foreign governments or they would use DoD. Now for the DoD to have fake members created for the agency, that requires DoD approval of the creation of those operatives. So the way that the US government and in particular the CIA conducted offensive operations was they would have this like, like a DC6 or like a DC3, a Douglas aircraft, which is a fairly large aircraft at the time, propeller driven. They would make everyone in there a member of the Department of Defense. They would have id, they would have rank, they would have uniforms. They would have all U.S. army or U.S. air Force weaponry and paperwork, but they would be Central Intelligence Agency. That would just be a cover. And the agency realized that if it

could operationalize all these people all over

the world to do everything from reconnaissance to regime change to covert operations, whatever espionage function, guiding and training local militias in country, why couldn't it just. You know, if you have a colonel flying the plane of a CIA aircraft and that man is a CIA agent, why couldn't you just have someone in the Pentagon who's CIA? So I know that this is one of your core points, Stormy, with how the Agency puts agency people in various positions of power. So do you have anything to add on that point?

[Stormy]

No, that was extremely detailed and not being facetious at all, that was actually great. Yes, I can there's anything I could

[Philosopher (Philo)]

add to that so I can add on that?

So like.

Okay, so one other thing. Give me. I'm just going to turn the lights on here. Just perfect. Okay, so page 148 of.

[Pete Quinones]

So.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Okay, so Prouty's in this position and he's seeing all these DOD guys getting flown over the world that he knows are CIA. And ultimately it becomes a point of contention because at the time I think he's a. He's a colonel fullbird kernel. And I think you said something very interesting on your last podcast, Stormy, which is that colonels are the ones who really, really make happen within the US Military. Generals are much more of like a, a political role. But if you want something to actually get done.

[Pete Quinones]

Right.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

I think both you and Pete have talked about this. Like, there's, there's Colonel McGregor, there's that other colonel who was also featured on Tucker talking about the Ukraine funding. So a lot of these on the ground guys are going to be lieutenant colonels and colonels. And so he sees this stuff on the ground and what he's, let's see here. I'd have to pull a good point, so I'll pull this as a direct quote so it's more coherent. During the past 20 years, there have been many times when the Secretary of Defense or other military official has stated that the United States needed to go ahead with the development of a new bomber, a new submarine, or even a new missile system because intelligence had acquired information which indicated that the Russians had such a bomber, submarine or missile. And if they develop it, then of course we find that we're behind the times. So very, very seldom are these facts about military information revealed to the public, even to congressional committees, and huge expenditures have been made on partial information. Why do I bring up that kind of institutional point? Well, because a lot of the information that guides procurement in Congress or guides DoD experimental technology development, like Trump just announced the F47. Well, for some accounts, it's been operational for the last five years. DoD developed it because probably at some point someone in the intelligence community wrote a briefing saying that the Russian and Chinese are developing more advanced fighter aircraft. Right. So DOD would not have made that decision without agency advice. So to understand how the agency operationalizes its own intelligence, it's that there's monumental amount of raw political information out there. According to Dulles. In Tragedy and Hope, Carol Quigley writes that Dulles said 10% of agency information is actually legitimately classified. 90% of it is open source intelligence information. So that's all stuff that you can publicly see through, like reading newspapers or you know, just pulling a poster off a wall or reading a, a political dispatch or something in a government office, for the most part, like declassified information is what it works in. So if that is the case, using that information as a machine, as a function to turn it into eventually an ask with that like very small amount of classified information to become like a DoD weapon system that requires the selective release and control and analysis of information. If, let's see, it's Grace Jackson report. As General Dolovant Donovan and Alan Dulce had proposed the very success of secret intelligence would from time to time create its own requirements for subsequent clandestine operations. For no more reason than the intelligence input had detected something somewhere. The legislators knew that clandestine operations would grow out of the findings of secret intelligence, whether or not there was any national plan or policy to carry out in the first place.

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[Philosopher (Philo)]

This is why the Donovan Dulles Clifford school of thought requires the existence, real or imagined, of a constant enemy. Communism with a constant enemy. Every bit of secret intelligence that reveals the existence of communism is its own reason for the development of an operation. Then the counterpunch becomes the action of a machine, not of minds. So I bring that up because the modern conception of how the US conducts espionage overseas and how it carries out covert operations is that the US like systematically went to every left wing country in Latin and Central America and Eastern Europe and just. And Africa and just like knocked them over needlessly. A lot of that was on clear intelligence of communism. And because this is very key and it, it speaks to like the, the anti communist, like pro Nazi element of Dulles. Like the guys at the top were looking at the United States as the most powerful country in the world which had poached the best possible espionage operatives from the Nazis and were now tooling them against the Soviet Union. So if you have the most powerful country with the best people, you would want to leverage that as strongly as possible against the Soviet Union. And if you have the biggest stick on the block, why wouldn't you use it on every possible instance of communism that you could find in the world? The next part I would talk about would be the Guatemalan United Fruit Company stuff. I was wondering if you had any thoughts on that, Stormy, but that's a bit of a subject change.

[Stormy]

Yeah, we might have to save that for another day, to be honest. That's a whole other tangent.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Sure.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, that's a. I mean that's a series unto itself.

[Stormy]

Yeah, I think it's a good series because I think it's the last time the CIA was actually doing things that were for America. And anybody that thinks that it's just for, like, oh, rich people and their overseas possessions, they don't understand how power works.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

I have a good, very specific incident on that point. There's a good inside look at the agency from the mid-1970s. It's a biography of Richard Helms. At one meeting in 1961, this special group at the Agency discussed an incident in Singapore in which two CIA technicians had been arrested while trying to polygraph a potential recruit in in Singapore's Special Branch of the National Police. The polygraph operator had literally tried to eat his graphs when he didn't like the result. So the prime minister at this point, the brand new Lee Kuan Yu, was furious. And his anger only increased when an attempt was made to bribe him with $3 million in cash to drop charges against the CIA people. And there's a back and forth between at the time, Bundy, who's Secretary of State. Sorry, sorry. George Bundy Kennedy, Special Assistant to this title, Special Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs. Very arrogant guy. More State Department than agency. He got into an argument with Dulles over this incident. Bundy wanted all future agency operations of this sort to be cleared in advance with him. Dulles refused to agree. This was CIA's province, the very heart of its expertise. Bundy was in effect proposing that he be put in charge of foreign intelligence collection and that he was about to be entrusted with the identity of just about every agents in the CIA employ. Dulles was not about to explain his objections to this young man. He just said no. Dulles tone was almost courtly.

See?

So Bundy says to Allen, you must realize this has a political aspect to it. Dulles tone was almost courtly, his voice soft, each word distinct. Yes, Mac, I do understand that there are some political aspects to this. Thank you very much for pointing this out to me. But Dulles knew how to say no, and Dulles won. But that only brushes the surface of Dulles underlying Flint. He was a hard man. He did not shrink from ordering the assassination of foreign leaders. He, and as a general rule, his charm, but not his power, stopped at the water's edge. At a State Department meeting about how to deal. How to deal with Jamal Abdul Nasser. That's in the Egyptian president, I think around 1956 and 1957, Dulles told a State Department officer, if that colonel of yours pushes us too far, we will break him in half. The threat was not an idle one. Other national leaders who elicited the anger of The Dulles brothers did not survive. Mohammad Mossadegh of Iran and Jacobo Arbenz of Guatemala. For those who don't know, in 1953, the CIA overthrows the Iranian government because Masadeh nationalized Anglo Iranian oil company. And I think they used Roosevelt's cousin or something for that one. There's. There's so many other sources with this. Like, I haven't even touched tragedy and hope as well as shit. What's the other one? There's a couple other little, like, stories I have about the Agency. Kind of funnier, lighter ones. Sukarto was, I think, the president of Indonesia in the 1960s, and the agency wanted him removed. And the Agency thought that the best thing they could do at the time was make a sex tape of Sukharto, because if they showed this sex tape to the Indonesian public, they would be scandalized about it because they were, like, a majority Muslim nation. So they got. They got this, like, fat Mexican guy who looks like Sicarto to, like, fuck a prostitute. And then they took that recording and they sent it to Indonesia and, like, publicized it there. And the Indonesians thought it was Sukarto. But in Indonesia, you're, like, a big man if you're, like, promiscuous. So the popularity for Sukarto actually increased in time and was another anecdote about the agency operations.

I want to, like, quickly illustrate the

difference between, like, how the United States and how Israel does things specifically.

[Pete Quinones]

Let's. Let's do a part two.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah, sounds good. I know this is, like. This is a lot. This is a lot of topic.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. Because we're gonna. We're gonna jump into something else, and. And we could be. Like I said, I think I started this off by saying, I have a feeling we could go three hours, and if I don't cut it off now, I think we will. And Stormy has to jump, too, so I will. Yeah, let's do that. Thank you. Philos. Do a quick plug. We'll get out of here.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah, I have a YouTube channel, Phyllos Miscellaney. Not really active, but that's my plug.

[Pete Quinones]

All right, Stormy, you want people to

[Stormy]

follow you on Twitter, follow me on Twitter. That's the only thing I have. And next time, I will budget at least two hours.

[Pete Quinones]

All right? Yeah, I think we're going to need it. All right, guys, I think this is enough for people to chew on for right now.

[Stormy]

So it's important for people to know how, like, intelligence actually works, because it's such a meme that I Think is kind of hurts people's understanding when they try and, you know, figure out what's going on.

[Pete Quinones]

All right. All right, guys, have a good night. Thank you.

[Stormy]

All right, boys, good night.

[Pete Quinones]

Want to welcome everyone back to the Pete Quinones Show. Been waiting for part two. Glad we could do it now. Stormy, how are you doing?

[Stormy]

I'm doing fantastic. It's a pleasure.

[Pete Quinones]

Philos, how are you?

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Also doing excellent. It's great to be here.

[Pete Quinones]

Awesome. All right, part two. Talking about the Dulles brothers and the CIA. And, Philos, you remember where we left off, so please just jump right in.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

I do. So where we left off was we were going through the early 1950s in the CIA and how the US military had been infiltrated by the agency and how a lot of these different points of information that we have access to today are because there's a lack of classification over them, and there's a few kind of smaller stories about their activities. And a big takeaway also is James Jesus Angleton. So just to kind of jog the audience's memory, there pretty obviously associated with Israel and all the different operations. So there's many different angles we could work on today with this. I'd like to still keep going through the 1950s in the agency and talking about a guy called Lyman Kirkpatrick. But before I get into that, there is another subject I want to talk

about, which is,

how do I kind of couch this in reading about the Dulles brothers? There's all of these lefty and progressive sources that are written describing these men as fascist and authoritarian and oppressive for going around the world knocking over native governments and causing regime change. And I wanted to just very briefly address some of the more critical perspectives against the Dulles brothers and against the CIA in the 50s, because so much of what we know nowadays, so much of our perception of these men and their activities, is colored by a bunch of lefty academics. So if you two are cool with that, I can kind of go through a few academic presuppositions and I guess kind of debunk them.

[Stormy]

I'm cool with that. I'm also cool with my intelligence agency toppling Nicaraguan, Guatemala, and Honduran governments whenever they want to fuck with United Fruit or Standard Oil.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

So this is where it. This is where I imagine we're going to find some agreement. So the first critical lefty presupposition that you find in guys like David Talbot in the Devil's Chessboard or the Chomsky angle of things is that all colonialism that happens in the world is bad or evil. But rather than calling out these other systems, like the Chinese system or the Russian system or the British system or the French system, they'll go after the United States. Because the way that the United States conducts colonialism is, I would argue, actually more beneficial than all of those other systems. Something that's curiously absent from most progressives is criticizing other forms of regime change and economic dominance. I would argue that the Dulles brothers going into Guatemala and Nicaragua and a lot of these other CIA activities, even the Cuban Revolution, it's actually much more benevolent and respectful of a culture's autonomy than other countries conducting colonialism. And how can I possibly justify that when there's people getting killed? Well, what the Chinese do when they impose colonialism on a country is, is they take out a 100 year lease on infrastructure development for ports and highways and wholly cut out the native population. They conduct widespread economic exploitation of whatever country in Africa or Southeast Asia or Latin America that they go into, and a similar system with the Russians and the Soviets. They would come in and impose their ideological change, but generally, as long as a country was nominally communist, they wouldn't care as much about the economic production that's going on there. And before I try and really defend American colonialism, I have to describe the British and the French background here a little bit. So the world in which the Dulles brothers are operating is the beginning of the post colonial world in the 20th century. Prior to the 1960s, most of the world was directly administered in a colonial fashion. And most of that was done by the British or the French or the Americans. And the British system was they would pick a country and they would establish a cast of people within that country. They would point to them and say, this group is whiter or more Anglo or more ready to be Westernized than another ethnic group. And then that first group would receive power, and then they would totally dominate the second group by using British colonial administrative structure with, like, a nominal overcast of British administrative officials. This is why the British promoted the caste system within India. And then conversely, you have the French system, and in the French system, you have a very strict colonial apparatus. Particularly this was in French West Africa. And the French would come in with their system of Napoleonic Code and their departments, and they would entirely staff the colonial regime on an indigenous meritocracy within that country. And it's very unpopular nowadays to defend that kind of Western colonialism against its alternative forms. But one thing I kind of arrived at when researching the activities of the Dulles brothers, I sort of realized that the modern liberal calculus of just economically desecrating countries and having the IMF and the World bank go around and crater world economies in the 1990s and 2000s by allowing Jewish international capital to buy like a native state owned enterprise.

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[Philosopher (Philo)]

That's actually significantly more harmful in the long term than a short term regime change that the Dulles brothers were doing. That's a pretty controversial statement. So do either of you have any thoughts on that?

[Pete Quinones]

Go ahead, Stormy.

[Stormy]

I do actually. So first off, in this analysis,

[Philosopher (Philo)]

they

[Stormy]

are basically weighing one thing that's not real and is never going to be real, and then what we do. Because if I am, let's say like an alien civilization and I zip up and I find Earth and let's say I find Earth 6,000 years ago, I have. I'm. Everyone would expect me to just take whatever the I wanted and that, that is the things that would naturally happen, right? So there is not like an alternative, not an actual real politics where we just come across either strategically valuable real estate, whether it be location, or in minerals, resources, whichever, that we can leverage in actual life or death competition with the other developed nation states. Right? It's a, it's a game. It's. Geopolitics is like the fucking Highlander. There's only going to be one, and when there's not, there's going to be great struggle. And eventually we hope that some of these struggles balance each other out and it's just infinity stalemate. But any one of those participants, their aim is not infinity stalemate. Their aim is survival. And the only way to ensure a nation's survival is to crush its enemies. Politics is what it's friend and enemy. So there are no neutral countries. If you're undeveloped, you don't get to be neutral. We have no reason to recognize your sovereignty. You have something that is valuable, you are unable to stop us from taking it. If we don't take it. Our enemy will take it and use it against us. So that's the actual alternative. Like there is no alternative reality where we just go, oh, this is the Suez Canal. This may be really important. Well, these guys don't look like they can get their shit together. So I guess we'd set the fuck off home then, huh? Like that's not a reality. So the reason the lefties criticize only America is because we're the biggest and we're the best and they hate greatness. Right. If another country was the biggest and the best, they would hate that country more than us. They need to align themselves with the victim. Therefore they cannot align themselves with the hegemon. So there is no non colonial eventuality. So that's, I think, what needs to happen. As far as any type. Hold on one second. I have a screaming cat that's about to get tossed outside for being a brat. Take it from there, Philo.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

It's just something that came up as I encountered this strange olive mirrors, especially when reading the David Talbot book and Chomsky, because it looks at, it looks at like a very small Latin American or African or Southeast Asian country and says they are just one western educated communist away from being a utopia. You know, especially when they're talking and we'll get into Guatemala a little bit later. But the way that they refer to Guatemala is that even though this country since, and most colonial powers since really the year 1800, since the industrial Revolution, there's just been, even in the era of like after bolivar in the 1820s, there's continuous regime change between what is at the time very far right and very far left regimes. The overall cycle of regimes within these different countries far outpaces anything that the United States is able to even really conceive of.

[Stormy]

Okay, real quick, real quick, let me interject. The reason why the, the reason why the. You. The easiest way that you can defend the US system of colonialism versus any other right is simply because we are going to keep toppling. So why did we rebuild Europe? Why was that important to us? It wasn't because we particularly love French people and we know how the people that were running the show felt about German people at that time. Yes, there was people that did not feel that way. Q. Allen Dulles and John Foster. But we rebuilt those nations at considerable expense because there is not more fertile ground. More fertile ground does not exist anywhere in the world for communist revolution than a bombed out shithole. Bombed out shithole is about as good as it gets. It is A revolutionary's wet dream. And all the countries in south and Central America at the time were bombed out shitholes. Either bombed out by themselves or just shitholes de facto. Either way it's fertile ground for a communist revolution, as you can see, because communism just catches very, very quickly. So if we are in a life or death struggle against the Soviet Union, we have two options. I think Thomas lays it out great, Pete, When I think you guys were talking about Vietnam at the point in time that you're talking about. Philo. In the 50s and later in the 60s, the US was losing to communism. Communists were chalking up W after W after W all across the Eurasian landmass and in Africa. So the we just don't fuck with these countries in our own backyard is not an option. It's not right. We're not going to become a garrison nation. And no leader, no responsible leader of the American nation would in any good conscience do that or allow that to take place. If there's any place that needs to be toppled, it's the one in your own backyard. If there is a country full of resources or just really real estate, that is the country that you can't turn around and just, you know, let them exist. However, it's the one that is directly connected to you via land. The reason that the US is in the defensible position that it is is because the people that hate us happen to have an ocean in between us and them. So creating a situation where they no longer have an ocean between us and them isn't simply not allowed. So we didn't go impose some harsh caste system like Philo mentioned. We didn't do the terrible French way, which I mean still goes on today, by the way. Everybody should check out the West African. Frank. We didn't do any of these. We just did a test of anti fragility. Philo, like Philo just said, we're going to keep on toppling these until you can fucking build one or assemble one that is resilient to communism. And you're going to try and it's not going to be resilient. And then it's going to be taken over or begin to be taken over by communists and then we're going to topple that one again. And eventually you will have a government that's able to defend itself from communism that you built yourself. Right? So we are forcing them. The US is acting as the rapid evolutionary forcing function for resiliency. Like yes, US companies will do business there. The fact that there are U.S. companies that do business there is actually what stops the communists from invading or trying to take it over. The same reason that Trump's like, yeah, I'm not going to try and put troops in Ukraine, but I'm going to put businesses in Ukraine. I think it's a dumb idea because fuck Ukraine, frankly. But if we're talking about Monroe Doctrine like my backyard, then I do care, right? But putting businesses in Ukraine is his way of not putting troops.

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[Stormy]

It is as much of a tripwire, right? So once a US business is there in Ukraine, if Putin comes in and tries to take it away, it gives you the diplomatic leeway to act the same way as if you had troops there. So the population, since the hypothesis of us not taking them in a colonialist effort does not exist. In reality, we have two options. We either station troops there or pour capital into the country. No matter how many troops we station there, that's never going to develop the country anymore. We'll take what we want, but there will be no knockdown. There will be no second and third order effects that benefit anybody else there. So business is always going to be better than bullets. And rather than imposing a form of government, we will allow one to form organically. And if it ever ceases to be, you know, able to defend itself against communism, we're going to knock it over again and we'll keep knocking the sandcastle over until they build one that works. But the key factor in there is they built it, not us. So just on its face, the US's form of colonialism is the best. If we're, if we're viewing the, you know, happy feels of the natives as the prime judging mechanism. Personally, I think other forms of colonialism would have been a lot more easy to administer because none of that optionality would have been given to the native population, nor would anybody care about their feelings. But if we're judging by the feels of the brown people in these places, then the US is by far the most superior and the non colonial option doesn't actually exist. It's false.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Exactly. And there is not a peep about the Chinese exploitation of Sri Lanka, and that's a very niche example. But everywhere that China goes and does business in an undeveloped country, it will build extractive infrastructure. And when it can, it will not interact with the native populace at all. It will not give them a dime. And the people, the Chinese nationals that exit China to go live in a place like, you know, wherever in Africa to go, mine resources and put them on Chinese trucks, on Chinese highways, to go to a Chinese port in another country, when you ask them, where are they in the world, they will look at you and tell you, china. And there's a reason for that. There's. There is no autonomy or sovereignty with any other model of colonialism. That's a very. It's a very interesting distinction there. I'd like to pivot back to the Central Intelligence Agency and the Dulles brothers. Let's see here. So there's something to point out. Very recently to tie it in. Trump recently appointed all of his cabinet level officials. They all went through Congress, most of them got approved, and they were all sworn in on television. And usually when someone, a cabinet level secretary, is confirmed by Congress, they give a brief speech after being sworn in by the President of the Congress, in this case, J.D. vance. You know, usually it's about five or 10 minutes, there's some media appearances, and then they get to work. Well, the current Director of Central Intelligence is a man named John ratcliffe. And so J.D. vance gets up there before the swearing in, and Vance says, quote, normally after I administer the oath, I would invite the new guy to say a few words. But given that he's the leader of the CIA, John Ratcliffe is not going to give any remarks because every piece of knowledge in his brain is actually classified. So he's going to head straight to Langley and do the job that the American people need him to do. That's a very interesting position. How could a cabinet level official in front of the Vice President, say no words, give no speech, be accountable not at all to the media, and simply walk out of the room at the behest of the Vice President? That is because, as I explained, the position of the Director of Central Intelligence, it will be very clear that this is depending on who you ask, the second or third most powerful man in the country, period. And that all begins with Alan Dulles. The question has to be asked, who is the Director of Central Intelligence who staffed the Central intelligence agency between 1947 and 1961, that such a man of such power could come from it and enter into a position to run it. Well, there's three generations of men that are present in the Central Intelligence Agency at this time. The first is a senior group. These are American military men and corporate men, either in finance or law, that generally served in World War I and who had vast foreign contact networks. These men I found in reading biographies and direct histories of the Agency are exceptionally competent, worldly and political. The second generation of men were the World War II OSS guys. These are highly plugged into military. They are extreme experts in the state of global affairs and also covert operations. To them they are the hammer to which every problem is a nail. And the third group, the group that begins to come into the CIA as it is set up is the new recruits. These are the people that are enrolled in the Junior Agency office training program. According to Lyman Kirkpatrick, this training program rivaled the executive. The best executive development programs in the industry, Procter and Gamble. When someone in the late 1940s and early 50s goes into the Central Intelligence Agency, an entire year is devoted to formal training, followed by three years of control and guidance by the Office of Training. And what kind of people are recruited into the Central Intelligence Agency? According to a 1951 House Appropriations meeting, some of the most recruited quality men in the CIA are, were actually FBI agents and military officers and men from corporate fields. That I think is very interesting that the CIA would be going into all other government agencies and poaching their best people. And I want to elucidate an example of a man who is detailed by Al Fletcher Prouty. And that man's name is Lyman Kirkpatrick. Because I think the trajectory of his career really shapes out how the Central Intelligence Agency is taking shape at this time. He why should you care about him in relation to Dulles? Well, he was the executive assistant to the prior Director of Central Intelligence, Gender General Walter Bedell Smith, and he was also the Inspector General of the CIA appointed by Dulles. This man also created the Defense Intelligence Agency and he also wrote the Keystone Report on the Bay of Pigs invasion. So the reason that you should give a shit about Lyman Kirkpatrick is that he is the highest authority in the Central Intelligence Agency that wrote a detailed primary source book after his service. And he's also one of the very few men, one of three that Al Fletcher Prouty believes realistically depicts the inner functioning of the CIA. And we'll start off with how he was recruited into the Agency prior to the 1970s. Really intelligent people would be recruited on merit. It's kind of the opposite today. It takes about two years to get into the Agency. Kirkpatrick was recruited. Okay, so I'll just give a brief exposition of his life. He wrote a book in 1969 called the Real CIA, where he details all this. So Kirkpatrick graduates from Princeton in June of 1938, and he was urged by his boss, a former naval aviator, to apply for a commission in the Naval Air Intelligence. He gets rejected by the Navy for being mildly colorblind in May of 1940. And through a friend, he's introduced to Wild Bill Donovan. At the time in 1940, Donovan is heading up the Office of Coordination of Information. Based on the interview, Donovan really, really wants this Kirkpatrick guy on board. Kirkpatrick knows this because as he is hanging around federal buildings trying to get a job after being rejected by the Navy, an agent comes up from the Civil Service Commission, flashes a badge. Kirkpatrick looks at this badge, and he realizes that this is a fake person. And if you recall, during part one of this series, the Central Intelligence Agency and also the OSS was very adept at getting fake people created to staff government agencies and the military. This is a tool that they're able to use to get information out of people.

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[Philosopher (Philo)]

This man who walks up to Kirkpatrick does not actually work for the Civil Service Commission. He knows the investigator is obviously a little new, and he's investigating on behalf of Donovan's organization to try and find out Kirkpatrick's background. Kirkpatrick knows this because the investigator mistakes him for his boss. And so this man comes up to Kirkpatrick and says, you know, what's, you know, are. You know, do you work with Kirkpatrick? And he goes, well, yeah, you know, where's this going to go? The first question is, did Kirkpatrick's attitude towards the war change any after Russia became involved? This question was asked in right after, I think, Operation Barbarossa in early 1942. And why would a spook interviewer's first question be about Russia in 1942. Why wouldn't it be some kind of allegiance towards the Nazis or some kind of overall sympathy with Communism? I'm reminded, Stormy, of your point that all of the really involved players in World War II were concerned about the Soviet Union right from the start. So he goes through this brief questioning process, and then he doesn't really think much of it. He's being vetted at this point by several government agencies. He then gets a call, very mysteriously, from the Secretary of the Navy himself. So at this point, Kirkpatrick isn't in any government agency or service. He's just agreed to work in Donovan's department. And the Secretary of the Navy asks this, basically this, nobody, come into my office, and you and I are going to have a talk. So he comes in, and very quickly, he's singing, sitting in front of the Secretary of the Navy, and the Secretary asks him, how would you like to be commissioned tomorrow as a Navy ensign? And Kirkpatrick says, no, I've agreed to join what will become the oss. And the Secretary of the Navy leans over his desk and he says, don't go into that crazy outfit because there's no rules and there's no regulation. So Kirkpatrick, again, similar to the fake military personnel, gets a direct commission in the army, even though he's not in the military, and he was rejected from the Navy. So he has a very illustrious career in World War II. And as a fake army lieutenant, he is personally advising General Patton and General Bradley. And then through his meteoric rise, he eventually becomes the number three man at the Central Intelligence Agency. So why. Why does this matter? Why does this one man, his trajectory matters. Well, it's sort of an archetype for how the Central Intelligence Agency could orchestrate control over different aspects of government in order to bring the most meritocratic person to their operation. And this was the thrust as the organization was beginning to coalesce together after the war as well. And I want to bring up, to contextualize Dulles, I want to bring up briefly the previous Director of Central Intelligence, and that is a man named General Walter Bedell Smith, who was DCI from October of 1950 to February of 1953. Interestingly, when Dulles replaces him as DCI, Smith goes on to join the board of United Fruit Company. Very interesting little fact there. The mood at the time when General Smith was DCI was that the Korean War was the final blow needed to force the United States to revitalize its defense establishment and also to build a modern intelligence system. And at Smith's right hand is Alan Dulles. So General Smith arrives in D.C. in October of 1950, and he calls Dulles at his law firm, Sullivan and Cromwell, and he says verbatim, you wrote the report on the CIA. Now come to Washington and help me implement it. At this time, in the Central Intelligence Agency in 1950, there are two units operating overseas. Clandestine collection is by the Office of Special Operations, and the covert operations are conducted by the Office of policy coordination. The OSO has elements of State Department and DoD, but the Office of Policy Coordination is just agency. So under Dulles, his direction, he consolidates these two halves. And that's where the, the recruitment of people to sort of act as fake military members or government officials becomes entirely the purview of the CIA. So to make this make sense, Moto

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[Philosopher (Philo)]

Today he is removing administrative control from non CIA departments in order to create more ambiguity about getting people involved overseas that represent those departments. Because you don't want somebody who reports into State Department saying, hey, there's a guy walking around here who's claiming to be a member of the State Department. You know, do you have him on record? Well, no, he's actually Agency. That no longer is a problem. So General Smith is initially opposed to wanting both of these things combined, the Special Operations and the policy coordination combined into one organization. But Dulles has been pushing for this since May of 1948. And in June of 1951, he combines the Latin American divisions of these two departments as the first keystone move. Now, early in his career, Dulles had manned the Latin America desk of the State Department. And that becomes very critical as you start to get into the United Fruit Company and Guatemala later on.

Let's see,

the CIA then begins under Dulles. And there's a few interesting facts here. So the CIA is formerly under Dulles control from February of 1953 until November of 1961. And according to one of his successors, Richard Helms, the National security act of 1947 gave Dulles authority over the entire intelligence community. It's been claimed that Dulles was, you know, threading many different bureaucratic parts within the agency. But honestly, a more objective look, and this is according to Richard Helms personally, that all that Dulles ever gave a shit about was operations. He cared about how to recruit KGB officers. He cared about the vulnerabilities of uncooperative foreign governments, how to get information from friendly intelligence services. And he didn't really care about the line items of multi billion dollar, multimillion dollar budgets. And why does he have this free bureaucratic movement? Well after Eisenhower created the President's Board of Consultants on Foreign Intelligence Tech Activities, Dulles suggests, you know, he creates this board to consult on these activities. Every single person, all 10 members of this board are handpicked by Dulles. So they have complete control over him, over the activities of the committee. And they're trying to also pat him on the back. They're putting him, Dulles, more and more into the White House. And the other close coordination that Dulles had to access at this time period was his brother, John Foster Dulles is Secretary of State and he wants an activist CIA. So Dolas himself is very, very good at conducting these operations. But there's a vulnerability, there's a setback. And this is from Lyman Kirkpatrick, who he has a meteoric rise in the Central Intelligence Agency. He would have been director, but he contracted polio on assignment in southeast Asia in 1952. And this precludes him from really being able to rise to a position.

The

Kirkpatrick writes that in early 1954, McCarthy is continuing to attack the Central Intelligence Agency because supposedly there's a whole bunch of Communists that are present. This is something that comes up very frequently with McCarthy. His tactic is to point to a government administration and say that there's a secret cabal internally that is a group of Communists that's all working to advance the communist agenda. Now, for the most part, that's completely accurate and true, but it's not true for the Central Intelligence Agency. And Dulles takes this very personally. He's extremely anti Communist. The unbeknownst to McCarthy, and according to Kirkpatrick, the CIA had been completely and thoroughly investigated after World War II for communist activity, regardless of employment or the security clearances that anyone within the Central Intelligence Agency had held. So Dulles knew that for the most part, everyone at the CIA was pretty clean in terms of communist activity at the time, according to Kirkpatrick. But Dulles goes further. He sits down at a meeting. I wouldn't call it a meeting. It's more of a convention. He puts 600 agency employees in a room with him, and he says to all of them directly that he will fire anybody who goes to McCarthy without his personal authorization. Dulles also notes in a different source that quote, since I have been with the CIA, a mountain of hard evidence on communist intrigue has passed over my desk. Soviet spies have been operating in the United States for more than 40 years and the apparatus all over the world went into high gear for the Cold War. So that explains the emphasis on the anti communist tendency within the Central Intelligence Agency. And they would end up doing much more like pro lefty activities after the Dulles brothers are outed. But there's another quote here that is from a book called the Cultural Cold War, which claims that the CIA influenced and infiltrated the cultural sphere of the left wing progressives and bankrolled them. Everyone from Isaiah Berlin to Jackson Pollock to Bertrand Russell to Sartre, they were all on the CIA payroll. And while people might associate that with Dulles, that's actually not quite true. In the book it says about men like Dulles that these men like Dulles, quote, schooled in the principles of a robust intellect, athletic prowess, politess, noblige and solid Christian ethics. They took their example from men like the Reverend Endicott Peabody. Trained in the Christian virtues and the duties of privileged, they emerged believing in democracy, but wary of unchecked egalitarianism. Reversing. This was the elect that had not been elected. So a lot of the other. I'm gonna, I guess I'm straying a little bit, but basically these guys were extremely motivated, internal to their own agency, to get rid of the communism that was present and how they actually conducted these operations. Well, okay, they had a legal network that was also present in the agency. It was very limited in its scope and its manpower. Right. This is the more espionage side of the house. Every important American embassy and consulate has its quota of CIA men who are given a cover rank but whose work escapes diplomatic discipline. The CIA legal operative reports directly to Washington. His job, like his Soviet counterpart, is to recruit illegal agents, build up contacts with non governmental forces in the country and collect information through sources not available to the regular embassy staff. So this begins to create kind of an elite class of people within the CIA. So you have the analyst side of the house, which is usually you have a country desk where you have anywhere between half a dozen to a dozen experts on any given country. They all have a specialty area for that country. One person is very, very knowledgeable about the economics of a country. The other knows a great Deal about the religion. Another person knows about the recent history and political situation of the country. And those people form an analyst collective about the country, which then will create intelligence reports based off of mostly open source intelligence information and sometimes clandestinely gathered information like satellite activity. I should also stress that this is prior, for the most part. I think Stormy can correct me. This is prior to a lot of the psychic activities that were going on at the Agency. I know that they had MK Ultra and I. I listened to Astral's episode on that, but I'm not an expert in that area, so I'm not going to overextend myself on that front.

[Stormy]

I started in the six, in the. In the late 60s, early 70s.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Sure. Okay. So it also.

[Stormy]

It also came. Out of. It also came. Another thing is that while this is happening in the CIA, another thing that you. Another group that you will butt into when you butt into the CIA, which is a lot harder to find anything on, frankly, is the Naval Intelligence.

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[Stormy]

And so Naval intelligence kind of sits in the background. Right. So in the. As he's describing all this, keep in mind that all of the branches of the military have kept and grown their own intelligence off agencies internally. And they're the only people with equally as unlimited and equally as unchecked and equally as classified budgets. So sometimes these groups will overlap. Remote viewing, I believe, came out of the Pentagon first.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

And it would kind of track with the overall trajectory of the intelligence community. Because this number three man at the CIA, Lyman Kirkpatrick, he founds the Defense Intelligence agency in the 1950s. He's responsible. He's called the father of the DIA by people within that community.

[Stormy]

And yeah, there's not much Defense Department in the Defense Intelligence Agency, though.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Sure. I mean, it's. It's mostly. I'd have to like double check the information there, but it's. It's a lot of O and I.

[Pete Quinones]

Right?

[Stormy]

Yep.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

I mean that. Because that makes sense because the office prior to I have a book on the origins of the oss. It's the big internal CIA one that had to be gone through twice before they were able to publish it by Troy Baker.

[Stormy]

I think that one, a good example is like the Defense.

[Pete Quinones]

The.

[Stormy]

Both the Office of Naval Intelligence had their own, I guess, Warren Commission that was strictly internal for them. And you still can't get declassified. Not even a single freaking page of it, including the Trump administration. Can't get it.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

I know that they were the dominant intelligence force in the country prior to World War II.

I mean, they.

[Pete Quinones]

That. That was it.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

There was. And also, if you look, you know, I think kind of the hidden story about Kirkpatrick's recruitment is that. And it's very interesting. So there's this unspoken subtext of a relationship between the Navy and the recruitment apparatus within the oss. Right. So the Secretary of the Navy, Knox, he knows. I mean, he is informed the next day, you know, because he calls this candidate, this Kirkpatrick guy, because if OSS wants him, he's been rejected to be a Naval candidate. The only, the only way he can secure his loyalty is, you know, he says, hey, do you want a commission tomorrow? I mean, that's, I mean, and that sounds. People might not appreciate just how major of, like, that doesn't happen.

[Stormy]

Like the President calling you.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Exactly.

[Stormy]

It would literally be like the President of the United States calling you, saying, hey, do you want a job tomorrow?

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Right. So there's, there's, there's, there's many things going behind the scenes.

[Stormy]

And who knows, Universities, too, man. If you notice, all the CIA guys tend to come out of where the CIA leadership.

[Pete Quinones]

Right.

[Stormy]

So I guess you can say, like, the class structure within the CIA, so to speak, at the time.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

They're all coming out of Yale and Princeton. Yeah.

[Stormy]

Yep. How come you never see, like, West Point or any of the other military academies, which are far harder to get into than Yale, I would imagine those guys mentioned.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

My guess is that they've already been indoctrinated with DoD thinking, the. The methodology of, of war gaming things. And, you know, they've also been trained very hierarchically and within a legacy, man.

[Stormy]

Oh, yeah, these are all the most important thing.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

There's a great book called Wise Men by Walter Isaacson. It details how all these guys, you know, all the World War I guys, there's also a huge thing for Navy intelligence. So Kirkpatrick's boss was a naval aviator. And all of the people that founded early Naval aviation and Navy Intelligence that were working in that field, these guys had, like, all of the powerful connections that are going on and I mean, it's. It's still the case. Like, it's, you know. You know, find me a very interesting parallel today is if you look at all the people that are in charge of the Department of Defense, like the Joint Chiefs of Staff, they're all fighter pilots, but also overrepresented is like, the Navy's opinions. I mean, the Navy really runs the show when it comes to the bureaucracy in D.C. nowadays. And also, like, basically, like throughout American history.

[Pete Quinones]

Yes.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

You know that the army is out in the 19th century fighting the Indian wars. The Marine Corps is deployed, you know, all over the world to, you know, the big.

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But.

[Stormy]

Yeah, the Marine Corps. The Marine Corps is under. Who now at the time and still are technically under the Navy.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah, exactly. And so all these naval personnel are in D.C. and all the admirals and all the general staff. And if you look at Trump's changes, you know.

[Stormy]

Well, here to give you just a real quick example that everyone at home can Google right now. You can do it. Too far. I'd love to actually hear your opinion. Type in Pentagon militia destroys, Kills whichever. Pick an adjective. CIA militia.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Okay, stand by here.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, I remember this.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

I remember what had happened. Los Angeles Times article.

[Stormy]

Yes.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Oh, man, I could tell you about this one.

[Stormy]

Yes. The CIA was trying to. At the behest of. I guess you can call it at the behest of Zionism. This is the thing is that I didn't want to interrupt you, but Alan Dulles was right about communists. He just didn't really understand communists all that well. You could hate communists and be very anti communist and not understand communism in, let's say, the way the three of us understand communism. Right. We understand communism a little bit differently, and we understand that there's no difference between that and Zionism. Right, guys? So he may have had a blind spot, because the reason why Allen Dulles couldn't figure out how the Soviets kept on getting all of their shit was it never occurred to him that it was Israel giving all of the materials. The mole that James Jesus Angleton was commissioned to find. This Soviet mole wasn't, in fact, a Soviet mole at all. It was a Zionist mole, and he was it. James E. Zelton was the guy that he was supposed to find. But who was Zionism at this point? Find me a Israeli prime minister who's. I have to caveat this because I could just say every Israeli prime minister was a former member of the Soviet intelligence apparatus, but then I have to caveat that because Benjamin Netanyahu exists and he's Just the son of two Soviet intelligence officers.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Well, all of them are Haganah, Irgun, every single prime minister.

And they were also.

[Stormy]

I mean, organized crime and intelligence go like, hand in glove, right?

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah, absolutely. With Angleton as well. There's some little interesting anecdotes about Angleton.

[Stormy]

I try and tell people like the Mossad existed before, long before the state of Israel.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, reference the previous, previous streams on forestall and, you know, just the. The prevalence there. Like Angleton. Angleton, as deathbed said, you know, he said, I'm going to burn in hell for all eternity for what I'm. What I've done in my life. And there's some very. There's some. I mean, he had some realizations. Well, you know, and it's interesting reading the David Talbot book on him because, you know, the reason Dulles didn't suspect Angleton is because they were very close. You know, there was a huge amount of trust that Dulles put in Angleton. And I'd have to pull up the

[Stormy]

source here, but it's the same thing that always gets them. Why would a Princeton guy. Why would a man of my class possibly. This is how everybody miss Kim Philby. There's no daylight between champagne socialist and communist and all these little posh boys, their life kind of lacks a certain type of excitement. And being a double agent is pretty exciting. I believe Dulles missed Angleton for the same reason that everyone missed MI6, missed Kim Philby. Because for him to throw in with the communists would be so unimaginable. Because glaring in the face long before national betrayal would be class betrayal. So why no one saw fdr? All of the people that were aligned to try and oust the recently elected fdr, a lot of them had the last name Roosevelt. Nobody ever sees class betrayal coming.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah, not all of them betrayed either. Like, Kermit Roosevelt was involved in the Mossadegh, Standard Oil, the Iranian action.

[Stormy]

100%. Like, dude, Roosevelt's entire family was like part of the campaign to oust fdr. Like, the level of betrayal. They were the most vehement, like the most venomous. Anti Roosevelt people were members of the Roosevelt family because of that betrayal. It caught them so, like, they couldn't. They couldn't imagine it. I imagine that this is why Dulles couldn't imagine class betrayal. Let's put it this way, what you said, it may sound really corny, but the quote that Philo just read out earlier about what these men were actually like, what their values were like, what their religious Faiths were like. And the type of priority and prominence these men put into matters of faith, it leaves them open for this type of thing. Because it is physically impossible for a man like Allen Dulles with the values and beliefs that he has. It's his whole paradigm, right? It's not like, oh, these are my values and they're like this line item list. These are my bullet points right here. These are all the things. That's not how it works. All of these things are part of his paradigm. They physically represent the way that they physically are not represent. They are the lens in which he views reality. He lives through those. He analyzes all information through those. He experiences life through those. He understands the options that are available to him at any given time through those. Which is why the class traders always get through. Always.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

There's a very interesting. There's two very interesting elements to Angleton. The first was that when he was in school at Yale, he founded a very modern avant garde literary magazine and was very into modernist poetry, which later became the Beats and everything else. And they got a lot of CIA funding from that. So Angleton, there's a very interesting thing which is that he was exceptionally interested in the metaphysics of assassination. And people that worked with Angleton said one did not always have to agree with him to know that he possessed a unique grasp of secret operations. As a friend remark, he had the ability to raise an operational discussion not only to a higher level, but to another dimension there. It is easy to mock this, but there is no one within the agency with whom I would rather have discussed a complex operational problem than Angleton. Angleton's activities ranged from opening the mail of U.S. citizens to wiretapping the bedrooms of CIA officials. It was his job to be suspicious of everybody and he was keeping a treasure trove of sensitive files and photos in the locked vault in his office. Every morning at CIA, he would personally report to Dulles on the results of his, quote, fishing expeditions, as they called his electronic eavesdropping missions, which picked up everything from gossip on the Georgetown party circuit to Washington pillow talk. As Dulles was well aware, Angleton had even tucked away explosive secrets about the CIA director himself. That is why Dulles had rewarded him with the most. Well, I disagree with this. That's not why Dulles rewarded him with the most sensitive job. It's not like blackmail. It's because he had like really full trust of Dulles. He also, like a lot of Angleton's co workers, were all Ivy League graduates. Angleton was a huge Fan of Britain and had attended the upper crust British boarding school Malvern. And he worked a lot with British secret intelligence. And what else was there?

[Stormy]

Also, why he didn't see Kim Philby coming.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah, so Philby is a little interesting.

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[Philosopher (Philo)]

What can I find about Philby? Let me zoom in here. So

[Stormy]

they're like, just for the listener, these people sound irrelevant, but these people have far more to do with the

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[Stormy]

With history being created, than really anybody in any elected or visible position of power in either of these governments or any of them, frankly. Allen Dulles shaped world events, historical events, far more than anyone in Congress, Far more than any individual army officer. General doesn't fucking matter. Any president doesn't matter. Matter. These are the men that actually create history. This is why it's important to know them.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

And it's even more interesting because generally, most people are aware of the fact that Eisenhower is not personally going around approving all these foreign government interventions. I mean, it's pretty standard knowledge nowadays that Dulles and the agency were wholly responsible for all of this. But there's this weird cognitive dissonance over the fact that something similar could be happening today, that the people not in power.

[Stormy]

Eisenhower was the compromise between military intelligence and civilian intelligence. Because who was at the height of their power after World War II? The military. They frankly run American society. They run the American political apparatus. He was the compromise between the two factions.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Exactly. And the CIA took a lot of ground from the military element because of the Korean War. And, you know, initially off the bat, the. The military intelligence component of it really dropped the ball on it because the Koreans had been building up their forces for months before the invasion. But back to, like, Phil B. And Angleton. Um, yeah. Phil B. And Angleton were both British schoolboys. You know, they were. They. They grew up together and their families hang out and would do dinner parties all the time. And one thing that was Richard Helms was like a party to both of these people. And he commented, I have no doubt that the exposure of Kim Philby was lodged in the deepest recesses of Jim's being if he were the sort of. Oh, that's a separate part. Angleton told a friend in British intelligence after the betrayal, quote, I would kill Philby. The betrayal was painfully intimate. Let's see, you know, there's a separate point. William Colby, who was the guy who finally terminated Angleton's tenure in 1975. So Angleton's like active for a very long time. The guy who terminated him said, quote, I couldn't find that we ever caught a spy under Jim. So Angleton, you know, was the mole hunter for decades within the CIA and he never caught a spy. Crazy, crazy. He operated, quote, a virtual CIA within the CIA, reporting in only to Dulles himself.

[John Daly]

See,

[Philosopher (Philo)]

big alcoholic. Angleton was very much into art and what other stuff was there? He said, he said as part of his testimony before the church committee in the 1970s, quote, it is inconceivable that a secret intelligence arm of the government has to comply with all the overt orders of the government. CIA overseers were a priestly caste that must be allowed to operate unfettered and above the law. What other stuff was there? I don't want to like tread on ground from the previous stream, but he worked on pursuing a CIA partnership with the mafia, with Cold War countries. France, West Germany, Turkey, Taiwan and Israel. He had a special bond with the Israelis.

[Stormy]

And that's probably where you want to go next, bud, because next comes the Kennedy assassination.

[John Daly]

Yeah.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

So let's see. I'd have to pull up. I listened to the astral stream. I didn't do too much research. Interesting.

[Stormy]

With Corey Hughes.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah, that's right.

[Stormy]

Yeah. Corey Hughes is an animal. He is probably the best on this. Dawson is really, really good, but I don't think anyone is able to put it together as linearly as Corey has.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah, I'll have to, I'll have to go through it because I didn't, I didn't quite understand the, the references in there to MK Ultra and Oswald. Like, I can understand the idea. Like it fits very well into the picture that, you know, Oswalt is not only a patsy, but perhaps could be

[Stormy]

used for something else. Right. He doesn't have to be involved to be a patsy, bro. Yeah, no, I mean, I think Oswald belonged, was being groomed for something else by another intelligence agency, probably the Pentagon. Related.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Well, the framing is that he would, he would infiltrate the Soviet Union. That was to be his assignment, to get closer within those communist circles. You know, they kind of made, as I understand it from the stream, they made up afterwards that he was a Communist. That's all bullshit. And almost everything about his life and his biography is contrived.

[Stormy]

Yeah, there's multiple ones, but it's basically a project that got started very, very, very young. So they were creating fake Oswalds when he was still finishing grade school or elementary school or, sorry, high school, I can't remember which.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

And then his mother worked for like, the Navy Intelligence or something.

[Stormy]

Yes, Naval Intelligence. A lot of the people associated in adjacent. Like. So if I want to. If I am in a rivalry. Right. And I want to, like. Because the DoD did not want Zionism.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

No. And how could you blame them? I mean, Zionism whacked the first sect. Death.

[Stormy]

Yep, exactly. So if you're going to. Again, Oswald's purpose has nothing. Oswald no knowledge. You can literally watch in the video of when basically somebody asked him about, like, literally when he's being carried away. You could see it dawn on his face that he got set up. Right. Somebody knew who Oswald was and picked him as the patsy. He doesn't have to know he's the patsy.

[Pete Quinones]

Right.

[Stormy]

So if I'm going to burn somebody, why would I burn one of my guys and I can burn one of yours?

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah, let's. I'm trying to just find a good section on it.

[Stormy]

Remember, I'm hanging the. And this way, if anybody looks into him, they're going to bump into your. Not mine, Uh,

[Pete Quinones]

the.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

So I'm. I'm looking through the Talbot book for the JFK assassination stuff. Problem is, is there's just so much material on it that it's hard to, like, find good quotes.

[Stormy]

We don't have to go into the assassination, but we should go into how Dulles exited the CIA, why, who exited him, and what was immediately done after he exited. And what did Alan Dulles do once he figured out what had happened?

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Sure, yeah. I think you'll probably have to take

over the lead for it because most

of the rest of my research is on the coups in Congo and Iran and in Guatemala. So I, I kind of left the Kennedy assassination stuff. So if you want to cover it, I'll.

[Stormy]

We've thoroughly so in. In James Jesus Angleton's tenure, Right. Of not catching spies. He did, however, have a interesting relationship, which apparently no one bothered to look into, with a florist that he would stop in every day on his way home and talk to for two to three hours. The FBI knew this, but in some of the recent documents that have been declassified and released will be James Jesus Angleton going to the FBI, saying, at the direct request of the Director Dulles, anything that has to do with Israeli intelligence or Israel whatsoever needs to come directly to me and only to me. Nobody else in the CIA. Bring all of the Israel to me. And this is exactly what Alan Dulles wants, I promise. At the same time as the FBI is noting that the CIA guy, he doesn't have any flowers, doesn't even have a garden, but day in, day out, he stops by the florist on the way home and chats. Or two hours, sometimes three. Usually more than one. And we never find out who owns that florist. Not that it would matter. Not that it would be a real person. Not that it would lead anywhere. All right, so we'll never know who was in that florist that he was talking to. Right. But what was James Jesus Angleton's relationship with the state of Israel, Philo?

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Well, as we. As we covered in the first stream, he was extremely connected with the Defense Secretary as well as the head of the Shin Bet within Israel. I mean, and he was. That's where he was.

[Stormy]

The Shin Bet.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

The Shin Bet is Israel's domestic intelligence service. And there are.

[Stormy]

So both foreign and domestic intelligence.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

That's right, yes.

[Stormy]

Okay. So basically, Guy is a. And a asset of the Israeli intelligence agencies. Right. So I don't know what it is that James Jesus Angleton thinks he's rotting in hell for, but again, keep in mind that James Jesus Angleton does. Does not need to know the intentions of the Israeli state to be helpful to the Israeli state. Just like Oswald, who put it together, literally, as the journalist is like, when did you decide to kill Kennedy? And you just see the look on this guy's face like, oh, I'm being set up. I know what this is. He was clueless. He had no idea what those reporters wanted. He had no idea about anything. Right. James Jesus Angleton didn't need to know that he was helping a foreign government kill his president. All he needed to know was that he's helping a foreign government. Probably thought he was helping a foreign government for whatever reasons they told him. But basically. So just because he is involved in the Kennedy assassination does not mean he knew what was happening. He did know what happened afterwards. But then. Are you going to run and say anything? No. Because you're basically sworn to secrecy, whether you like it or not. Because to not be sworn to secrecy is to effectively indict yourself for treason, and especially right after the President got killed, your ass would be shot. You wouldn't Have a trial. You wouldn't have any. You would have an accident or a suicide or something like that. Most cases of treason don't involve a trial or a tribunal or anything like that. When it comes to intelligent stuff, that person just dies, however mysteriously or unmysteriously it happens. And that's what would have happened to Angleton if he were to have said, like, oh, shit, I think that I shouldn't have. I was giving these people information thinking it was for this, but turns out it's actually for this. And I think I did a bad thing. That's never going to happen. He's going to have to live with that every day till they dies, which it sounds like he did. Unfortunately for us, he didn't die sooner.

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[Stormy]

What did Ellen Dulles do? Because he was pushed out of the CIA, right? And like. Like Philo said, the man was running an intelligence agency inside the Central Intelligence Agency. Mr. Mr. Engleton, very busy guy. And according to two of the sources that he referenced, he had material on Allen Dulles himself, the head of the CIA. So between running an office inside an office and having material on the current head of the Central Intelligence Agency, if there's anybody that could have pushed Allen Dulles out of the agency he created, because there's no way in fucking hell that he would have decided to leave without being pushed out. So who pushed him out? I don't know. Maybe the guy with a secret folder full of shit on him. Probably a good place to look. So what did Allen Dulles do after he got pushed out during the. Everyone's like, oh, well, he. Allen Dulles was on the Warren Commission. No shit. No shit. He was on the Warren Commission. That doesn't make him complicit. And you can be on the Warren Commission because the nation knows that you're the intelligence guy. So if someone's going to make something believable, right? Or actually, because the Warren Commission, what's his name. Two members of the Warren Commission came out and said that their investigation was deliberately derailed. And there's parts of the Warren Commission that's still classified you ain't heard about Moto Casino.

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[Stormy]

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[Stormy]

Right, so these guys, just because somebody's on the Warren Commission. This is the thing about people need to be way. When you look at stuff like this, anything intelligence related, anything like this, you have to be way more fluid, right? You have to basically take everything that you see and then you look at it from every single angle. Is it possible to be on the Warren Commission and not be involved in the Kennedy assassination? Yes, it is. What was Alan Dulles doing? Well, I believe in the book, what was that book that you mentioned, Devil's Chessboard. I believe they document Alan Dulles after being pushed out and immediately after the Kennedy assassination. Basically recreating a mini C CIA in his living room full of only people that he trusted. Imagining after just getting pushed out of the Central Intelligence Agency. That was a very small list of people. But what were they investigating in Allen Dulles living room each day, all day, probably piecing together what the fuck just happened. Because if you just got pushed out of the CIA and you know enough to know enough that some CIA people were involved in this or at least adjacent to it, you would probably try and get to the bottom of that at least. If no other reason than to make up for being ignominiously thrown out of the thing you created and shamed. But probably for other reasons. I mean literally, I mean John Foster was. A part time Protestant theologian and John Foster's son is a very prominent Catholic, was a very prominent Catholic bishop and eminent theologian. Like these men took their religious stuff very seriously. So if somebody just kills the President, you're going to try and get to the bottom of it like you're not a fucking heathen. You know, it would be a, it would be a call to action for a man like Alan Dulles. So why didn't anything happen with that? Like why did Alan Dulles just, just stop? Well, at that point in time, the, the man who was having an affair with the Israeli Iron Terrorists, right? And member of the Stern Gang, right. I can't remember her name. But that guy is now in the White House. He's the President, the Israeli asset. Now very, very, very guilty, feeling very, very, very, very nervous, probably very, very, very, very twitchy. James Jesus Angleton, the guy that pushed you out, is now running the CIA. So if the President is near as makes no difference in on it and the guy that's run CIA now is near as makes no difference in on it. And you're just an old man without a job, you know, playing CIA in your living room, it doesn't matter what you find because someone's going to come up to you and have a conversation with you that says, hey, like you need to just go be an old man now or you're going to die. And that's what he did. He died shortly after anyways. So I really think it's, I really think the whole CIA killed or was involved in any capacity officially as in like, officially as in like the organs of the CIA was involved in the Kennedy assassination needs to be put to bed. Alan Dulles being an evil man and involved in some way in the Kennedy assassination needs to be put to bed.

[Pete Quinones]

Right?

[Stormy]

The reason, I don't know if we talked on the first episode about the Kennedy and Dulles beef. Philo.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Kennedy and Dulles beef.

[John Daly]

Yeah.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

I mean Dulles hated Kennedy.

[Stormy]

Yeah, Kennedy hated Dulles. But why? Nothing to do with the Vietnam War, right? Everything that we have from Kennedy, both internal White House transcripts, right, Recorded phone calls and official statements of Kennedy is that, that are now declassified. He was ramping up. Vietnam. Kennedy never wanted to pull out a Vietnam. That's a made up. That's, that's, that's made up. Because you would need a reason for the beef, right? You need to point the finger somewhere else. Those calls.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Kennedy, Kennedy, yeah.

[Stormy]

Huh. Let me tell you exactly what he was naive about. The one thing that after the Cuban Missile crisis, nuclear, this is actually where why he, Kennedy was as committed. Besides the fact that, besides the fact that his father, Joe Kennedy had a run in with the focus group in the UK prior to the outbreak of World War II and was roundly squashed and thrown out of his ambassadorial position by fdr because Joe Kennedy was screaming like, hey, why aren't the British doing peace? Why are they taking his offer? Like we're going to start another world war, we're going to do it all over again. And the focus group was like, yeah guy, that's the fucking point. And turns out Joe Kennedy found out that FDR was already in on it. They were, they're about it. So Joe Kennedy, like in his last years had a tremendous amount of resentment towards particularly the Zionist outfit in the United Kingdom, right? The focus group that basically, I mean he would actually send letters back and communications back saying that he thinks that they were trying to poison him. At one time he actually gets deathly ill and almost dies. He comes home to America shortly after he legitimately thought they were trying to kill him. Because Joe Kennedy was not on Team let's go World War II. He was on team let's not do World War II. So Jack Kennedy had no real love for the Zionist cause to begin with, but he's rather indifferent about it until the nuke stuff happened. Like, I mean, Jack and Robert Kennedy literally took their kids to mass on Sunday at the height of the Cuban Missile crisis, made sure every single one of their kids got communion. And funny enough, Khrushchev's son will tell you that his dad did the exact same thing. Because both world leaders were thinking, there's a fucking very, very, very high probability that we're going to go like everything's. We're all going to go to hell, like now, nuclear hellfire tomorrow. And after that passed, Jack became very, very serious in his nuclear anti proliferation. Like, you know, as I imagine, taking your kids to what you think was going to be their final communion will probably be a formative experience in a father's life. I don't know. I think so because Jack Kennedy was literally going to the Soviet union, his friend Mr. Khrushchev, and saying, like, we need to do total nuclear disarmament. Khrushchev at this point in time now getting significant pushback from the Soviet defense establishment. Khrushchev was on board, but Khrushchev couldn't. Well, let's put this. The Soviet military apparatus at this point in time is starting to have a lot more power than Mr. Khrushchev. And Khrushchev was not able to move the ball down the court. And I think you can look in the conversation, what you call it, the telex stuff, I can't remember. It's either the transcribed phone calls from the recorders in the White House or the telex, I can't remember which. Whatever. They're going back and forth. And Kennedy, Jack Kennedy's like, hey, so how about we just start disarming first? And that way you'll know that we're serious about it. And that way you can go back to the military guys and say, look, there's. The Americans are serious about it and Alan Dulles and the Joint Chiefs of Staff found out about this. And they are not naive. They're like, are you out of your mind? Like you're talking about, like you're going to try and, you know you're going to destroy some of our missiles in hopes that the Soviets do the same. Like, I'm Sorry, this is where the beef came between the two. It had nothing to do with the Bay of Pigs. The whole Bay of Pigs conversation. As Corey Hughes documents extensively, the reason the Bay of Pigs failed had nothing to do with the CIA, nothing to do with John F. Kennedy, had everything to do with those arms never fucking making it to Cuba in the goddamn first place. Where did they go? The arms that were supposed to go to the people in the bay that would be doing the Bay of Pigs never made it there because with the help of James Jesus Angleton, they were going through an export import business in Virginia, which I cannot remember the name of, but again, Corey Hughes documents extensively and being shipped to Israel. Those guns were going to Israel and unfortunately none of them ever made it to Cuba. And that's why the Bay of Pigs failed, because every fucking bullet and every gun ended up in the Levant and not on the shores of Cuba, which is where they were really sorely needed. So it wasn't the Bay of Pigs either. It was the nukes. Kennedy in his naive little lefty brain. Because don't get me wrong, if Kennedy didn't get his fucking top blown off, every single one of us would have hated him as much as we hate fdr. The only reason that we have any nice things to say about him is frankly because our opinion, you know, killed him. And B, we, at least me, I love America enough to where nobody gets to fucking kill the President, no matter how fucking left he is. Sure as hell not some piss ant state in the Middle East. But we would have hated jfk. Like he would have been like, we would have looked at him like a disaster. He was a naive leftist. He literally thought that, well, I think we could just make nukes go away. I think we can uninvent them and the Soviets are going to do it with us. Totally. This is actually going to happen. And someone like Allen Dulles and someone like the guys in the Joint Chiefs of Staff would have thought that this man is absolutely insane. And that's exactly what they thought. And they sabotaged him every fucking chance that they got. And they did sabotage him several times. Some of them leading to rather embarrassing moments. And that's why Jack Kennedy says, I'm going to break the CIA into a million pieces. Because shortly before then they just made him look like a fucking. In front of the Soviets while he's trying to do this crazy idea of his that like we're just going to wave the magic wand and the communists are going to make all the nukes go away and we're going to make all the bars go away. So the whole. That's, that's the Dulles JFK beef has nothing to do with Vietnam, has nothing to do with the Bay of Pigs. The Bay of Pigs has everything to do with somebody else. And it had everything to do with nukes, which is the same reason JFK was losing his fucking mind at was. It's Menachem Begin. I always get. I always get them confused. Is that the one or is it Ben Gurion? Ben Gurion, right.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Well, Menachem Begin was a member of the Irgun and prime minister in the late 70s. And

[Stormy]

who was the one in the 60s? Who was the one that. The Kennedy letters, or I think they're called like the. Is the Israel letters or the Kennedy letters or whatever.

[Pete Quinones]

The.

[Stormy]

Basically the telex fight that he was having with the Israeli Prime Minister at the time about the nuclear sites in Dimona when he basically says, yeah, we know what you did.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

If, if you give me a year, I could tell you.

[Pete Quinones]

A year?

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah, like when the phone call happened. Sorry.

[Stormy]

Oh, no, no. Like this would be. Oh shit. Pete, do you know when the Kennedy assassination took place? I can't believe I'm fucking blanking on that.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

This.

[Stormy]

I thought you literally back to me.

[Pete Quinones]

It was in. It was in 63. But wasn't Ben Gurion Prime Minister at the time?

[Stormy]

Yes. So anybody that can go search the. What is it the. What's the office? What's the place? What's the. It's not the Library of Congress. Who's the people that keep the presidential records?

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[Pete Quinones]

The office of the historian. Yeah, the office of the historian holds letters. They have the. It's number 308 letter from Prime Minister Ben Gurion to President Kennedy, June 24th, 1962.

[Stormy]

Yeah, they have a whole bunch of them. This letter war went back and forth and back and forth. And anybody that reads those letters, if you think that these two men, you know, I would say that as much as I think JFK hated him more than Donald Trump hates Benjamin Netanyahu and that's Quite a lot. I don't, I don't think there was a relationship, a diplomatic relationship that John F. Kennedy had with any other world leader that was as hostile as it was with the Prime Minister of Israel at the time because of nukes. And that's also why, I think, I don't know, Philo, would you say like that's the prime reason why that he got assassinated by them?

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Well, I mean, it's interesting because the whole talk of nukes and the President, you know, Angleton being interviewed in 1975 in the church community, he's, he's bringing up Israel, he's bringing up nuclear weapons. I mean even, you know, at that point, 13 years later, it was still like the highlight of the congressional investigation into him. So I think there's, there's very good supporting evidence of that. And also you have to track like the global trajectory of the acquisition of nukes. It's been, it's been a hot minute since I've researched this. But first off, it's the United States and then later the Soviet Union, I mean, leaked through, I think a British commie spy, a scientist was how it got to the. It was 1949.

[Stormy]

I know the person. Was it the Rosenbergs?

[Philosopher (Philo)]

No, it was.

[Stormy]

Or they were the person that found. Or they were the person that was running the cell that this person, person that was working at Los Alamos operated out of.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Something like that.

But I do know that there's a lot of other atomic stuff going through them. But then anyway, I think it's. It's Britain and it's France and then Israel. One, one interesting.

[Stormy]

Stole it from us too.

[John Daly]

Yeah.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

One interesting thing from the 1975 interview is that Angleton says that right around the Suez crisis he's having talks with. Fuck, I have to pull up the damn source. He's having talks on with like scientists that are, that are working on like

development of nuclear material within Israel.

Because there's like a dynamic of. He's getting intelligence about the Soviet Union from the Israelis and then there's, there's other nuclear related information that passes through Israel as kind of a conduit. So a lot of internal speeches within the Soviet Union in the mid-50s are going through Israel. He's talking about.

[Stormy]

Yeah, because the intelligence apparatus was literally, you know, these were, these were former co workers.

[Pete Quinones]

Right.

[Stormy]

Granted the Soviet Union would later turn on Israel.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Oh totally. And Israel also was playing both sides. Like in Israel. I learned this, I learned this. That like that was, that was not mindset.

[Stormy]

Right. Just type in now today, just type in Pentagon or US Military. Pick an explicit word that's similar to angry, whatever Israel. Or type in just Israel sells US Military blank and then hit enter.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

And less known than that is Israeli.

[Stormy]

This is how the China's, this is how the Chinese got a hold of the F22, right? The only people we ever get like the F. The F35 is the, is the down syndrome, you know, baby, that came after the F22. Any fighter pilot that you know has any experience will tell you that the F22 is, is the real deal. The F35 is a nightmare and a joke.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Did you know that the, you'd like this one. The F35 has an I variant within Israel where they, they have their own aircraft, where they fit it out with all kinds of Israeli developed avionics and

then send them back to the United States.

[Stormy]

Do you know why they're not allowed to have the F22 anymore?

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Probably because they sold every part of it to China, I would guess. Yeah, to China, Yeah.

[Stormy]

So even Popular Mechanics talks about it. Popular Mechanics got invited to Beijing to witness this amazing fifth generation fighter that the Chinese had built. And what amazed Popular Mechanics the most was, was this plane, this plane's avionic system. It wasn't the fact that it looks identical to the F22, literally identical. It was that the avionics equipment was still in English. We only gave, I think we only gave one or two and I know we took one back, so I don't know where the other one went and I don't know what Israel got in return, but I imagine quite a lot.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah, I mean there's a good rabbit hole is the Israeli weapons industry and China and no one, no one knows about this, but it's, it's openly discussed over there like that that was touted as a, as a big, as a big fact was like the, you know, like, because that was a big deal at the time for the three years

that I was there was, you know,

Israel receives this F35 and ostensibly DoD tasks them to develop all the avionics within their own F35I variant that they're going to keep, but then send some of their tech back to the United States to help, you know, further develop this technology that's going on within there.

But

[Stormy]

you know, it's a pox on both our houses. Sorry, China pretty much.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

There's also like, yeah, there's a lot of, a lot of work within China that Israel's doing.

[Stormy]

And so think about this, think about Pete, you would probably know this. Do you remember, what was it called? I can't remember what the gate was. It happened shortly after the. Or shortly before the Lewinsky scandal.

[Pete Quinones]

It was the bombing of the aspirin. This would be after the bombing of the aspirin factory in Africa.

[Stormy]

I can't remember. I think, I think. No, I was talking about like the ak, the Chinese guns that were being. That they got caught importing into the United States. Like this is like a big deal deal. Like there was like some mil. There was some Chinese. It had to do with that guy that. The guy that was running it at the time, the guy that was deeply involved in it, was the same guy that killed himself by tying himself to a tree and then shooting himself in the. Shot in the chest with a shotgun twice.

[Pete Quinones]

I don't remember.

[Stormy]

It's like the. It's like the most famous Clinton suicide here. Hold on. Clinton? Yeah, like I. There's just too much in my brain. 1996 campaign finance controversy. Yeah, campaign China gate, it's called. I'm so dumb. God damn it. Oh, man, that's hilarious.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

I have a quick side note on that earlier point. I'm looking at the 1975 church thing. Angleton says, quote, you know, I'm talking about, in terms of Israel, talking about the signal intelligence. Most of the information that we gained from the surface to air missiles which had a direct bearing on you using B52s in Vietnam, we gained through Israel. We could read a whole lot of the computerizing and so on of those SAMs. And therefore we were prepared to give highly sophisticated equipment to Israel to work against the Russian business in order to transfer the knowledge to Vietnam. And so this goes back, you know, 60 years of kind of two way, five way street or whatever.

[Stormy]

I wouldn't even say it's a five way street. That sounds like somebody's gassing up a bunch of senators that don't know any better.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Maybe. I mean, yeah, it's. He's, you know, the, the senators are

[Stormy]

asking, why are these guys involved? Well, here, let me tell you why Israel is just so important. Like, you know, I'm sure I don't. I would love to hear what the senator's question that prompted that was.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Oh, yeah, let me, let me find it for you. Are you saying in effect then that any questions he raised with you about the transfer of visual material or deeper technology or manpower for that matter, to the Israeli government was couched in circumstances.

[Stormy]

Who is who?

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Who is who, Senator?

[Stormy]

No, as in, like you said, that Any, Any intelligence or any. Anything. Here, read the. Read that first sentence again.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Senator Tower to Mr. Angleton. Are you saying in effect then that any questions he raised with you about the transfer of visual material.

[Stormy]

He? Who is the he?

[Philosopher (Philo)]

That is Mr. Schwartz.

[Stormy]

I bet it's Dulles.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah, there's an individual named Mr. Schwartz. This is talking about Israeli government technical

assistance in the Suez war.

[Pete Quinones]

Schwartz is Irish.

[Stormy]

Irish.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Irish.

[Stormy]

I wonder if he's a flower shop patron.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Did you confirm to Sol.

Did you. Different guy.

During the late 50s subsequent to the Suez War that the CIA made available to the Israeli government technical assistance in the availability of one or more distinguished nuclear scientists or physicists for the purpose of developing atomic weapons. Mr. Angleton, that is completely false.

But we know it's true.

[Stormy]

Oh, so it wasn't. It wasn't. I guess they couldn't. Even after they stole the uranium and stole the. The. By the way, Benjamin Netanyahu, everybody makes his first appearance. His first time to the US was not unfortunately to testify as a Iranian nuclear weapons expert like he does in his role of prime minister every 10 minutes. And not his appearance on the howls of. On the floor of Congress as a terrorism expert as he did shortly after 9 11. And also a terrorism expert before he was even Prime Minister. He was the terrorism expert after WTC the first time. 93. But his first escapades in America had nothing to do with lying to our Congress people, which is seemingly his career now. It was stealing Krytron triggers which are the triggers for nuclear weapons in the naval facilities in California. At the same time, his co ethno religiousists, I would say co ethnics but depending on who you ask or when you ask, it's a religion. So cover all my bases. While they were stealing nuclear material out of the naval facility in New Mec, Pennsylvania. So between the two, you got both halves of a nuclear bomb. And it was actually the mob, the guys like Meyer Lansky, that made sure that nuclear material made it out of the United States. I mean when you find out how they were shipping it, I'm sure a whole bunch of random nice people got radiation poisoning mysteriously. It was really fucking gross. Don't expect mobsters to take a lot of precautions. But anyways, do you have a source? What you're telling me is that even with those two things they still couldn't get it to work. And James Jesus Angleton had to make sure that they got nuclear experts too. So this is after jfk. This is after. So why would the Israeli nuclear program and James Jesus Angleton and the Suez crisis be relevant at all to the Warren Commission. Unless nuclear weapons. The Israeli nuclear weapons program was not very, very, very important. Important to the Kennedy assassination. And I think you will get the impression when you read those letters back and forth between Ben Gurion and jfk, you come away with an idea that the Israelis already planned or they already knew who they were planning on using these weapons against. And I think that was the Egyptians. They were going to nuclear first strike them. Instead they did a surprise attack like hey, we're not at war. Oh, surprise. You're at war with us today with fighter jets. That's the only reason that Israel didn't get wiped off the face of the earth by the Egyptian army, which it actually still very well may by the way, was because the Israelis, without declaring war or really any hostilities or any real intent whatsoever, decided to just send literally every fighter aircraft they had and surprise the the Egyptians and shoot all of their planes while they were still, you know, not at war, hanging out on the ground. I don't think that was the. Because they didn't know that the Egyptian air defenses weren't going to be activated the way they were. Right. The Israelis had to assume.

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[Stormy]

That they would have lost a tremendous amount more fighter aircraft. And the Israelis had to assume that they wouldn't have been as successful as they were at nailing those fighter craft on the ground. Right. I bet you Israel was more surprised than anyone that they got that many Egyptian fighter craft. You know, caught them sleeping on the ground. Well, granted, it's not really the Egyptians fault if you don't know that you're at war near next. Think of Canada anyways, right?

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Because I mean the infantry was banning

[Stormy]

on nuclear first striking.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah, the incoming.

[Stormy]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Who was. I mean, actually Pete, I believe you have at least two episodes on this. Who was Egypt's ally?

[Pete Quinones]

Oh well, I Mean, that's easy.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

The big guy, Soviet Union.

[Pete Quinones]

Yep.

[Stormy]

It was the Soviet Union's largest ally in the region. And I believe they shouldn't be too hard to find. I believe at least one instance that the Premier of the Soviet Socialist Republics, Mr. Khrushchev, or either Khrushchev or actually Khrushchev, was ousted shortly after jfk. But so it may be either Khrushchev or the guy that followed him that any attack on Egypt would be viewed by the Soviet Union as an attack on the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union wasn't retarded. They knew how important Suez was. So basically what Israel was trying to do was start World War III with nukes. And they were perfectly okay with that if it meant Greater Israel. The only reason I go off on that tangent, dear listener, is because it is a very useful lens to apply to the Middle east today. So if Israel was perfectly okay, granted, they thought the US Was going to get involved. They thought if the US Got involved, that the Soviet nukes would fly at the US and not at their little tiny state in the Middle East. We would be the bullet magnets. But with nukes, they were perfectly okay starting nuclear war to get Greater Israel, because at this point in time, the Soviet Union was very, very, very clear that anybody that attacked Egypt would be at war with the Soviet Union. So basically, JFK was literally looking at Cuban Missile Crisis 2.0. Nobody just. We just didn't know it yet. So if Israel's willing to literally light the world on fire using nuclear hellfire to satiate their territorial expansion desires, everybody needs to be well aware that they would be more than willing to do it again. So there really is no geopolitical fallout that these people are not willing to risk, whether it's to them or whether it's to us or to really to anybody. Right. There's no nukes in the Middle east now, except for theirs, but when the Soviets would have fired nukes at them, they were still willing to do it. So really, there's really nothing they're not willing to do now, considering they're the one with all the nukes in the region, except for Turkey. So I think that's actually. Apparently we're right back where we fucking started.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

In addition to spending the last, you know, 30, maybe longer years trying to destroy Iran. Yep. And that's still like, even, like, last week, the, the DNI put out the 2025 threat landscape. And that, you know, number one threat outside of, you know, China or Russia or whatever is Iran. You know, it gets, it's just the same thing every single year. It's.

[Stormy]

That's right. Don't pay too much attention to. Don't pay attention to D. To DNI that much. You're basically hearing the CIA and the CIA is nearest. Makes no difference. Fully, fully zogged. Right. Pay attention to what comes out of the Defense Department. Defense department prior to October 7th. And there is ample policy documents from many, many, many army and Navy and stuff war colleges to start pulling troops out of the Middle East. And what do you know? You can judge how serious they were about it by the level of kvetching against it. So if the Pentagon wasn't serious, everybody should go to their search engine, do go to settings and go to select time and scroll the clock back before October 7th and type in Pentagon pulling out of the Middle east or Pentagon plans to fly to the Middle east, whatever. And you will have to go through three or four pages of Foreign Policy Magazine, the Atlantic Council on Foreign Relations, Chatham House, this fucking place, this other fucking place. Doesn't matter. Just every single one, all the way down the line about how it will be an absolute disaster if the Pentagon pulls out of the Middle East. Well, let's just say the Pentagon never said that. Hypothetically. Let's just do the counterfactual and say like the Pentagon wasn't planning on doing that. Then why the fuck are you guys screaming about it so loudly? Why are you screaming about how this thing will be a disaster that no one's talking about doing and no one's serious about doing? Oh, that's because they are serious about doing it and were right. Pentagon has done three separate war games, two of which were with the idf, about joint attacks and not just fighters and not just, you know, missiles. But actually I think one of them is called the war Game. Was called like Archangel or something. I in basically something to do with the Archangel Michael. I can't remember which. Right. And the US and Israel lose

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and

[Stormy]

they lose within three weeks. And the Pentagon doesn't like to lose. Same reason why and this is why it's important to think about the two intelligence apparatuses, one military and the other one civilian. Right? Because like Philo said, the head of the CIA is the third most powerful person in government. Well, the military isn't in government. The military is its own thing. The military doesn't have elections. The people aren't appointed. Unless you think the people that the president appoints the changes every four years. Unless you think those people actually run shit that'd be like Telling me Joe Biden ran shit. He didn't or who was it that black guy, Lloyd Austin? The guy that, the guy that, yeah, the guy that disappeared for literally eight months and not only did his secretary not know or his deputy not know, but his deputy didn't care and really nobody else cared. So if the person that the President appoints to oversee the Pentagon can fuck off and literally disappear in like a private cancer clinic for eight months and nobody gives a shit or notices, how much do you think that that position actually controls shit at the Pentagon? Not very much. So the war in Ukraine is a perfect example of this. It is clear anybody that was paying attention, it looked like there was the Russians versus the Ukrainians and there was our government versus itself, right? One half of the government was like, we're going to go to a war in Ukraine against Russia tomorrow. In fact, actually President Biden said in Poland, hey, you boys talking to American troops this time next year? And it was actually close to the end of the year. Or he said, he just said next year, right? This would be like two or three months at the end of the year. Next year you guys are going to be fighting in Ukraine, right? State Department was like, yeah. Very next day, somebody from the Joint Chiefs of Staff, I mean, how many public media press conferences have you heard from the Joint Chiefs of Staff before? Personally, that was the first one I've ever heard of. But Joint Chiefs of Staff wants to have a press conference and Joint Chief of Staff says, everything that guy just said is, that's a very strange thing to say about the Commander in Chief. And the very next day after that, the President's melanated mouthpiece comes out and says, yeah, everything the President said the other day, sorry about that guy, this bullshit, I've never seen that ever before in my life. So, yeah, dia, sorry is zogged. CIA, sorry is zogged. But the thing to keep in mind is that everybody in the Biden administration, all of the appoint like the cabinet positions, the people that actually ran the government, 70% of them hold dual citizenship with a nation in the Middle east and really, really, really, really like their ethnic home homeland of Ukraine and really, really, really wanted to go to war in Ukraine. So if the President is a vegetable and the cabinet actually runs the government and the intelligence agency wants to go to war in Ukraine and the. All of the people that run the Biden government, right, all of the important cabinet officials, from the head of the Secretary or the Treasury Secretary says, oh yeah, I know we have this hyperinflation problem boys and girls. But we still have money to go to war in Ukraine. Anthony Blinken all the way down the line. So if all of ZOG says that we're going to go to war in Ukraine but yet somehow we're not at war in Ukraine, how is no one talking about that? All of the people that hold all the positions of power, apparently if these are the positions of power, they want to go to war in Ukraine but we're not in war in Ukraine. And all those same fucking people want to go to war against Iran and we're not at war with Iran. So there is obviously. Right, like how do you know a black hole is somewhere? You can't actually see the black hole. You can only figure out the black hole is there by watching the effect of its gravity on the things around it. There's something else there and it's not the CIA, because CIA, they really want war in Ukraine. So I think it, I think, I mean it's a weird way to end it out but unfortunately that other place, I think the Office of Naval Intelligence, my guess, considering they predate the CIA by I don't know, 80 years, that'd probably be where I'd look. And I think that's where you see the kind of war within our government that doesn't seem to have eased up any. That was a ridiculous tangent.

[Pete Quinones]

Sorry guys, I mean I had. Let's do this. Philos, how do you want to wrap this up? I'll give you the floor. Stormy, you can interject any way you want.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

I figure, I figure there's two ways. The first is, I mean I'd love to get kind of the current, Stormy's current opinion on the Trump administration and you know, foreign policy generally. Alternatively, we didn't touch Guatemala and United Fruit Company but that might be too big of a subject to wrap things. I would just, it would just be

[Pete Quinones]

interesting that that should actually be separate because that's not only the CIA, right?

[Philosopher (Philo)]

That's Bernays and all the other stuff. But that, that would be. My preference would be, you know, I can understand the Biden administration, their stance on foreign intervention, the 500 ish dual citizens or ethnic representations. But you know they're on the one hand, 700 but go on, 700. On the one hand the language from the administration is changing on Ukraine but on the other the Iran, the, the pro Israel element of it, I mean I, does that, does that shape towards like a renewed effort on that intervention or is that just the same policy line that the right's Been trotting out for 30 years.

You know what?

Will that eventually.

[Stormy]

The way I see it is that in Ukraine, what. What Trump. Donald Trump wants first right now is Ukraine. Right? He wants Ukraine to end. What leverage does Donald Trump have over Vladimir Putin in Ukraine? The answer is none. Literally. Putin holds all the cards. We can't escalate. We can't ratchet. We literally can do all.

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[Stormy]

influence him into basically at least making it look like we could both chalk up a win. You know, when you want to, like, if you want things to, like, not escalate, like, hey, what do you need to. So you can go home to your people and say that this was a win and this is what we need to go home to our people to not get fucking just excoriated. He has no leverage over Putin at all. But he really needs this to stop, because if he doesn't, I mean, I know. I've talked to this. Talked about this with Pete, and I know, Philo, I've talked to this with. Talked about this with you privately. The European nations, like, will go do the stupid thing because it's either they go do the stupid thing or they have a lot of explaining to do at home when their government defaults on all of its debt and goes bankrupt or whatever.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah. The UK and France issuing all kinds of statements about they're gonna launch a military and everything.

Yeah.

Crazy, bro.

[Stormy]

Germany just sent troops for the very first time outside of German borders since. Since Operation Barbarossa.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

And what happens when they get killed? You know?

[Stormy]

Yeah. Where do they put them? They put them on the Russian border. The new guy, the new chancellor to replace Schultz is even more fucking insane. Like, actually an insane person. I would say the. The Europeans have gotten even more insane with escalation.

[Pete Quinones]

Dude. I don't know what. I don't know what. I don't know what demon is causing this, but that's all I've been talking about lately with, you know, in my private. In my private chats with people is there's a demon that has control over millions of People right now in Europe.

[Stormy]

Yep.

[Pete Quinones]

And they're, they're bringing it down upon themselves. And you know, like some of the stuff that we've talked about privately, it's, it's going to be hell.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

I mean, it's obvious. But there is no strategic reason to send any Western European military into Ukraine. There is just not any kind of rational or political or even economic reason I would argue to justify it.

[Stormy]

If you're worried about staying in power, because how does a collapse happen? How does it. Real quick, I don't want to dodge your question on Iran. Iran and Russia have a mutual defense pact, do they not?

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah, they do. And they also have a lot of natural gas ties, if I recall correctly.

[Stormy]

Yes. So by leaning on Iran, Mr. Trump has found a lever in which he can exert some pushback against Mr. Vladimir Putin. He can't escalate in Ukraine, he can't posture in Ukraine, but he damn sure can do it in Iran. And the Russians know that a large portion of the Congress,

[Pete Quinones]

the State of

[Stormy]

Israel and all of their far reaching tentacles very, very, very much want Donald Trump to go to war with Iran. So if Donald Trump threatens to go to war with Iran, that is a very credible threat. So now the man that has no leverage all of a sudden found some. So I don't know if that's actually what he's doing. But all the John Mearsheimers, all the fucking David Sacks, all these other fucking assholes will tell you all day about how Donald Trump has absolutely no leverage against Russia and how they just need to do exactly as Russia says and just fuck off. And don't get me wrong, I think we should fuck off. And we shouldn't have been there in the first place. But to pretend to be like some geopolitical analyst, you know, going on the Duran and doing every fucking song and dance you do. David Sachs, you're supposed to be a smart man. And if some half retarded anon can figure out what a mutual defense pact means, right? Since you fucking assholes have been screaming about mutual defense pacts in NATO and Article 5 for forever like this shouldn't be rocket science. So I don't know if that's what Donald Trump's doing. But if the man would be searching for levers to exert on Vladimir Putin in some way, shape or form. None of those levers exist in Ukraine, but they do however exist in Iran.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

I also want to add to that

[Stormy]

something bad has happened in Europe and I don't like it. And capital markets wise Martin Armstrong's never wrong. I'll put it that way.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

I want to add, also, predicting this

[Stormy]

for years down to the day, there's

[Philosopher (Philo)]

no more economic levers I think that Trump can pull as regards, like, sanctions on Russia, like, every, you know, like, I mean, for all the talk of, like, soft power, it does. It does reach a limit because soft power is basically sanctions, and sanctions are basically done. There's. There's not. There's no one else to sanction. There's no more institutions or organizations or energy resources that, like, it's.

[Stormy]

And we couldn't move enough troops to Europe to scare Russia fast enough. I mean, big. We put US Forces in being, though,

[Philosopher (Philo)]

in the Middle east, which explains the second aircraft carrier in the Middle east.

They put in.

[Stormy]

Yeah, I think that. Oh, my God. Trump sent three aircraft carriers to the. That means war with Iran. Like, do you not remember there were three aircraft carriers shooting at the Houthis, like, two months before Donald Trump got elected. They leave because they ran out of ammo, and they come back and this is now some indicator. Like, did we just forget the three aircraft carriers were already there shooting at the Houthis? And then they leave and now they come back and this is the signal that he meet, like, I mean, come on. It's like the pants wedding is ridiculous. Like, those fucking aircraft carriers were already there. They just fucking ran out of bullets.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

And that air operations have been ongoing against the Houthis for years as well, without resolution.

[Stormy]

Pete, how many times have you heard of Scott Horton freaking out about what the US Is doing in Yemen on behalf of the Saudis?

[Pete Quinones]

I mean, at least since 2015, like, every week.

[Stormy]

Yep. And who do we really need on side right now? This pretend Israel doesn't exist. Russia's got. Who do we need on side? We need. Russia's got 20% of global oil supply, energy supply. Who do we need on side right now? Saudi Arabia.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah.

[Stormy]

I don't know if this is what's happening, but.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Well, there's a very close violation.

[Stormy]

We've been doing this shit already for forever.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

And during Trump's first administration, there was a very close tie between the Saudis and the Trumps. I mean, it's just. It's, you know, all kinds of stuff. There was a lot of then the key things to watch in that relationship were not just, like, these diplomatic measures. Like, the US Was making appearances at all these different economic forces forums that were being held in Saudi Arabia. And I. It's been a long time, because this was, you know, Trump's first term. But you know, if I recall that kind of relationship and didn't you mention at one point Stormy, that like that's where most of Trump's money comes from

[Stormy]

is the Saudis, Saudis, Russians and US people. It's a Trump now, it's, it's a combination. But to Pete's point, back in the day it was the Saudi like basically who helped Donald Trump the entrepreneur. It was the Saudis and the Russians. Oh shit. Fuck. Pete, remember when I told you that the, the Egyptians moved all those tanks to the Israeli border?

[Pete Quinones]

Yes.

[Stormy]

I wonder if Russia were to have like, I wonder if Russia has a lot of ties inside the Egyptian military still.

[Pete Quinones]

Well you got that from Martin Armstrong. Right? Martin Armstrong. I think I was listening to the same show when he was talking about that,

[Stormy]

the Egypt thing. The only person I've heard about the tanks is McGregor.

[Pete Quinones]

Okay.

[Stormy]

But then I went and checked it out in Israeli papers and guess what, guess what tanks they are, they're like two, they're like something like, I think it was like either 1500 or 2000 and 50,000 supporting troops got moved to the Israeli border. But they're M1 Abrams tanks Egypt's got, unbeknownst to me, I didn't know but they've got like several like you know, more than a thousand, less than like 8,000 M1 Abrams tanks. Apparently Egypt's been getting a lot of aid and some of it it likes to receive in tanks and the other it likes to receive in dollars to give Russia for grain. So as Sisi has been starving his people he's damn sure been stocking up on tanks. Anyways, I know we were supposed to wrap this up but I think we just, I, I think I just took us further downfield. I would be interested though in hearing you and Philo tie the Bernays thing together into United Fruit because that is a rabbit hole I have not gone down.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, we can, he and I can do that one on our own.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

I can give you, I'm happy to

[Stormy]

join but I'll give you the two

[Philosopher (Philo)]

minute rundown if you have time.

[Pete Quinones]

Well yeah, I mean we're still probably going to want to do it. I mean two minutes is nothing.

[Stormy]

No. Especially if Edward Bernays is involved.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yep, that's the truth.

[Stormy]

I'd say this is probably more dangerous now than it ever was at the height of you, Russia, Ukraine under Biden. I probably say this is where this is probably the most dangerous it's been

[Philosopher (Philo)]

and we haven't even touched like the, the tariff negotiations and The.

[Stormy]

All that other stuff.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah.

[Stormy]

I don't think the Russia, China thing is actually as strong as everyone thinks it is.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

They've always been, like, allies of geographic convenience.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. How's the China. How's the China thing gonna happen, though? China, you know, basically says that anything that goes into Taiwan has to come through China first. US Says that's unacceptable. Who knows what the hell happens from there?

[Stormy]

That's a very. I mean. Yeah. So this is actually why I think you see the Trump administration not only not buckling when the stock market was freaking out, but barely saying words like Scott Besant. Is it Scott or Steven Besant? I always confuse the two.

[Pete Quinones]

Scott, Scott, Scott.

[Stormy]

So Scott Besant ran out on Tucker first, kind of like. Because if you think like that Tucker episode that you sent me with him. All right, you sent me that on the day that the market started tanking. Right? But there's no way that they recorded that on the day that the market started tanking and got it out in, like, three hours because the market was tanking right from the fucking open. So unless, you know, they were recording it at four in the morning and edited it or whatever, like. No, that was recorded the day before. Right. But ever since then, there's been very little communication out of the Trump administration about any of the shit that's happened. And in the interim, has anybody been watching? I've seen a ton of news articles about, oh, my God, China is dumping U.S. treasuries. 60 billion in treasuries. First off, China does that shit every quarter. It's not a big deal. It's roughly the same number that it's always been doing it every quarter. And the bigger news is that Europe is actually the one gobbling them up. In fact, like, gobbling up, trying to gobble up 80 billion when there's only 60 billion being sold. Right? So, like, that's. That's not the big news. The big news is the renminbi. Jesus Christ. Like, I haven't seen it, like, really reported anywhere, but, like, unless you're watching it on the tick, like, unless you're watching, like, the Bloomberg feed or, like, the chart, China's currency's fallen off a fucking cliff. Like, really, really, really, really crazy. So I wonder if.

[Pete Quinones]

Are you talking about the. Are you talking about the yuan?

[Stormy]

Yeah, I think it started coming back today. Oh, did it?

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, I think it started coming back today.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

I'm seeing that there was a huge drop on the 13th.

[Stormy]

Yeah, you're watching this.

[Pete Quinones]

The.

[Stormy]

The fucking Chinese currency. They have two currencies. The, the one is the external one that they use to trade with other countries. And I think the renminbi is the internal one. And my friend told like, renminbi.

[Pete Quinones]

There we go, another one right now the wand since the, since the close of our markets, it's dropping hard.

[Stormy]

Yeah, I think you might be right, Pete, but I think maybe we may be firing the first shots.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Forgive my ignorance of a trade war between the US and China.

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[Pete Quinones]

let's.

[Stormy]

I think it's the currency war, man. We're trying to destabilize them. You don't fuck with the internal currency unless you're trying to destabilize the nation itself. Right, because he has been acting insane.

[Pete Quinones]

But think about it.

[Stormy]

He's fired all the military brass and replaced them like in the last three or four months, it barely got reported on. But he has been axing generals and replacing them like crazy. Oh yeah.

[Pete Quinones]

Shit.

[Stormy]

Yeah, the renminbi. The dollar gained on the renminbi. What is this?

[Pete Quinones]

What is that? That's the internal, the internal currency?

[Stormy]

Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I can't remember where. Yeah, the CNY. I can't remember which one.

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[Stormy]

It is. But is this right? Is that really. Does that really say. Yeah. Okay, so it's a couple points and keep in mind everyone a couple percentage points doesn't sound like a big deal in currency. But the reason that Forex traders are always blowing up is because Forex moves so little that they have to trade with one hundred and one thousand times leverage to make any money at all. So these guys are trading fractions of a fraction of a percent, which generally would be absolutely worthless unless you leverage yourself a thousand x. So like a currency moving 3, 4, 5% would be like a stock moving like 50, 80% in a day. It would be huge. Yeah, because currencies collapse really fast.

[Pete Quinones]

If you look at the five day chart on the wan, the, the offshore Juan has recovered, but the, the, the internal is not doing well at all. And they're both at 14 cents to the US dollar.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

The offshore Renminbi recorded an all time low on Wednesday. Slightly strengthened. The onshore is its weakest level in almost 18 years. That just happened in the last hour.

[Pete Quinones]

Now here's the. Here's where you have to be careful. You have to know what you're doing in this, because these people are fucking crazy. And I'm one of these people who believes that they can turn our fucking lights out.

[Stormy]

Yeah. China.

[Pete Quinones]

Yes. Yeah, Yeah.

[Stormy]

I urge everybody to look at the North Korean satellite that has a very. It's. I think it's their only satellite. It doesn't take any pictures, doesn't do anything.

[John Daly]

All right.

[Stormy]

But has a very peculiar orbit that would be pretty much useless as a satellite unless that satellite was anything other than electromagnetic pulse device. It also happens to be at the perfect altitude that one would. And unless anybody believes that North Korea whipped that up themselves, you can believe that North Korea whipped that up themselves. And that's not actually Chinese. But if you do believe that, you also have to believe that China would have at least if. If North Korea has one. China's got more than one. And remember that Chinese satellite that went and was like eating other satellites back in the day? This is like last year, two years ago. It literally like was going. Or it was the satellite. It's actually really crazy. Everybody wants to look at. Into was big news. China had a satellite that was zipping around and basically crunching other satellites.

[Pete Quinones]

Huh. And maybe, maybe, you know, we want to talk, not talk about it. I'm. This is rhetorical, you know, maybe someone wants to talk about the fact that there are 250,000 Chinese nationals in our universities at this very moment.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Every time, every couple weeks, they get busted in the military for leaking information.

[Stormy]

Yeah, I think we need to be racist as a matter of national security. Because it seems that all the leaks and all the people that get caught doing espionage all have a name like Xinjiang Chong. Like, holy shit. Who could have seen that coming? Wait, how do we. How do we find the Chinese moles? Get the roster.

[Pete Quinones]

You know, the. You know, the. The whole Uyghur thing was the biggest fucking distraction. It was the distraction against all of this. It was. It was to distract us. Oh, we have to worry about these. These, like literal terrorists who were caught in the summer of 2001 training with the CIA in Afghanistan and to be sent back to China to disrupt them. And yeah, sure, that's something to think about. But no, when you start fucking with a country that has a billion people and then I heard somebody the other day arguing, they don't have a billion people. People. That's a lie. I don't care.

[Stormy]

When you start talking more with their 350 million.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. Do you. When you start with their currency. To a people that have no God other than Machiavellianism. Watch the fuck out.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Yeah.

How many Americans do we have embedded in Chinese institutions within China?

[Stormy]

I bet you they'd be really easy

[Philosopher (Philo)]

to find and can freely conduct business and communication.

[Stormy]

They're both named Tim Waltz. Go into that late.

[Pete Quinones]

You know, it's absolutely insane. This open society, this. Oh, and America is an idea. Anybody can come here and be an American. Oh. Oh. How important it is to have to bring them. To bring foreigners here to educate them in our universities so they can see how nice we are and how they can fall in love with the American

[Stormy]

and put them in our military.

[Pete Quinones]

How about we just by default, don't trust anyone?

[Stormy]

Yeah. How'd that work out?

[Pete Quinones]

And we'll start off with about 150 to 200 million Americans right now.

[Stormy]

Yep. And you want. I can't remember whose article it was. It was either. Shit. I want to make sure I give credit where credit is due. But actually I'm not even going to say who wrote it. I'm just going to refer people back to your episode about the recruitment crisis. I can't remember who wrote that article that you had on, but I forwarded that article to a lot of people that, let's put it this way, would be in positions of the type of people that would be able to have influence on that policy inside the DoD or at least bring that to people's attention. It was insanely well written.

[Pete Quinones]

How long ago was that episode?

[Stormy]

Over a year ago. This would be.

[Pete Quinones]

So it was Lee Enfield.

[Stormy]

Yes.

[Pete Quinones]

And it was an Army War College paper.

[Stormy]

Yes. Yeah. About the draft or something like that.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, yeah. About how we have. About how if we would have went up against Russia in Ukraine the way Ukraine went up against Russia, we would have been out of soldiers in 29 days.

[Stormy]

Yep, that's the one. That's the one. But particularly in that article or in the conversation the two of you had, he dropped a fact about the ethnic makeup of men that enlist under combat arms and then being like 93% a certain type.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah.

[Stormy]

So if you were to reduce the population to 150, 200 million, like you just said, the amount of fighting men that we would lose would be zero.

[Pete Quinones]

Yep.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

That's why Erik Prince is going on about the. The tip to tail, the. Sorry, the teeth to tail ratio. And that's certain that's why he's talking with Trump.

[Stormy]

And it's the tail ratio where all of the, all of the, the DMV workers exist. Absolutely. Yeah. It's going to be really interesting, man. I don't like, I know I've been kind of hyperbolic in, in the past about like what's coming down the pike, but I, I really think right now and like, I know like, there's literally like, I got a lot of commentators in our sphere basically saying like, oh, it's like a slow news day and we don't have all to talk about. I've been kind of absent on Twitter

[John Daly]

and

[Stormy]

in the discourse for like two or three weeks, but this is probably the most. Not depressed, I would say, but spiritually apprehensive period. I've had that I can remember in the last five years. The amount of times that I pray is an order of magnitude higher than it was pretty much any time in the last five or six years. It feels like something bad's gonna happen, man. It really does. And this is at least the most dangerous.

[Pete Quinones]

If what if it is what you and I were texting about, then God help us.

[Stormy]

Yes, God help us all. And you know what's really crazy is that every other person, person at the decision making table outside of Donald Trump is basically fighting for the worst case scenario to happen. Europe, they're fighting for the worst case scenario to happen. The Middle East, Israel, fighting for the worst case scenario to happen.

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[Stormy]

Half of our government, half the of fighting for the worst case scenario to happen.

[Pete Quinones]

And I question, I really question the people who are in charge right now. I didn't talk about that signal leak when it came out because it was turned into slop so quickly. But the talk about the oh, we're tracking this guy. Oh, he's going to visit his girlfriend in this building. All right, we'll just drop a bomb on this building. Hey, way to go.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Where's the crisis of conscience? I mean, to tie it back to the Dulles thing. If you read these guys, everyone In a position of major authority within the Agency. These men had deep metaphysical convictions and a lot of weight to their, you know, their ethical decision making processes. I mean, looking at this administration, everyone fixates on the wrong angle. They focus on the, like, OPSEC involved of the chat and yeah, sure, I agree, but the big problem is there's not a single person that's asking in that chat, hey, is this the right thing to do? Should we be doing this right? You always need to.

[Stormy]

Red team was also kind of brilliant though. Not gonna lie. Right. So if you remember the person who, who was the person that brought in that, that reporter.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Mike Waltz.

[Pete Quinones]

Alex.

[Stormy]

Mike Waltz. Wasn't he like the third pick for what? Is he the.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

He's the guy. Yeah.

[Stormy]

Everybody should look back at the previous two people that Trump and Tulsi. Yeah, Tulsi wanted for her second in command. They were both shot down. You know, choice number one and choice number two were shot down for not being anti Israel, but just not being pro Israel enough. And this guy was number three. That basically sailed through the Senate confirmation in like an hour. So if you wanted, if you thought you had a leaker that wasn't playing for the team, and this guy has been vocally anti Trump in the past and is a huge fan of, you know, the Levant. Could you imagine like an easier way of like just waiting, like letting that guy out himself? Because all of it, all the media attention has been on Hegseth.

[Pete Quinones]

Right.

[Stormy]

And all of the, basically everybody that the media has already hated already. And nobody seems none of the media wants to talk about the guy that actually brought the journalist in.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

No, I'm seeing all this stuff.

[Stormy]

I bet you that conversation is being had inside the Trump administration.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

He was also the guy pushing the, the uyghur stuff in 21. And yeah, I agree with you that, you know, Hegseth is, I mean, he's just like a line officer.

[Stormy]

You know, I literally think Pete's, Pete's interpret. Pete's take on Hegseth initial was the best. And I think it's the one that holds true the most.

[Pete Quinones]

What did I say? I don't even remember.

[Stormy]

This is. This is a guy that's not qualified for the job. And he's there because he is loyal to Donald Trump and no one else.

[Pete Quinones]

Well, I mean, that's, that's a lot of the people around him. But, you know, when it comes to that signal chat, Dave Smith was on Joe Rogan the other day and he was talking about that and he said, do any of these People fear God.

[Stormy]

Does he?

[Pete Quinones]

You're dropping everyone in that chat, including a Catholic, including a Hindu, including Protestants were celebrating dropping a bomb on a apartment building to kill one guy that they thought may have something to do with something.

[Stormy]

This is mean. I wonder.

[Pete Quinones]

This is what, this is what happens to you when, when your country is taken over by Zionists, you become just like them. No morality.

[Stormy]

I was about to say you don't care anymore. I was. Yep.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Awesome.

[Stormy]

You can only watch so much of what we've been forced to watch without being changed. Right. We're watching dehumanizing acts, saying how unhuman the perpetrators of these acts are, but it has an effect on us. You don't watch the dehumanizing of someone else, large amounts of people without being dehumanized yourself. We are all less. For what has been happening in Gaza. Whether you want to say, oh, well, you know, you side, but like, if I hear, like anybody, I mean, Pete knows, like me personally, anybody that wants to call me Third World, this, I will happily invite you to come call me that in person. That's not what I'm talking about. Like, you can't watch what we've been forced to watch without being dehumanized yourself. Like everyone's value of human life has been cheapened now for just having been witness to it. I firmly believe that because we've all been forced to abide evil. As a country, as individuals, we've been forced to look away, whether we have no other choice but two,

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[Stormy]

we've actively doing it like the people in our government. Right. Like I, I think you are, you are spiritually lessened by having abided it. And I don't know what the long term effects of it are, but I really think that everyone has become less for having been forced, literally forced, like the Clockwork Orange, our eyes taped open watching what happens or watching what's been happening. You don't do that without. You don't watch what we've had to watch. Eyes taped open. Right. Not being able to fucking look away from it and not be changed.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

One thing that really bothers me is when I see Trump administration officials lie while wearing a cross.

I have a big problem with that.

And I also have a big problem with the lack of any kind of shame. I mean, I mean, and every, you know, I agree with everyone on the journalist thing, but you should need to have an answer for when a journalist asks you a hard question about ethics. And I think you have a huge obligation as a Christian to answer honestly. And truthfully and thoughtfully, when you kill someone or when you order someone's death, you need an answer beyond deflecting. And it just. It really rubs me the wrong way that people can lie while wearing a cross.

[Stormy]

Yeah. I only wish these journalists weren't atheists, like, because I think a better question to be thrown at any of these were, do your actions honor God?

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah, That's. That's it. That's the end right there. That's. Do your actions honor God. That's the end right there. Anybody want to promote anything?

[Stormy]

Nothing to promote.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

No.

[Stormy]

Nothing to celebrate either, unfortunately.

[Pete Quinones]

Yeah. All right, gentlemen, thank you so much. And let's do it again real soon.

[Stormy]

Fuck, man. Yeah, it's fun.

[Philosopher (Philo)]

Thank you.

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