The Work of Ernst Nolte Complete - w/ Thomas777

Summary

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The Pete Quiñones Show – "The Work of Ernst Nolte Complete" with Thomas777

Date: August 7, 2026
Guests: Thomas777
Host: Pete Quiñones

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Episode Overview

This extensive, multi-part conversation between host Pete Quiñones and historian/philosopher Thomas777 explores the work and intellectual legacy of Ernst Nolte, focusing on Nolte's impact on historical revisionism, German philosophy, the 20th-century ideological landscape, and parallels and contrasts between fascism, communism, and Zionism. The discussion pays special attention to the “Historikerstreit” (historians’ dispute), the roots of European modernity, and how the philosophical ideas of Heidegger and Hegel informed Nolte’s controversial re-readings of 20th-century history.

NOTE: The summary is structured by discussion themes and chronology. Ad breaks and non-content sections are omitted.

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1. Introduction & Nolte’s Philosophical Roots

[01:31–15:58]

• Reunion and Framing: Pete welcomes Thomas after a brief hiatus, introducing the plan for a multi-episode exploration of Ernst Nolte’s career and influence.
• Nolte’s Place in Intellectual History: Thomas positions Nolte as the heir to a tradition tracing from Meister Eckhart to Hegel, Schopenhauer, and Nietzsche, situating him as a "significant personage" (04:10).
• Continental vs. Anglophone Thought: Thomas contends that Anglo cultures struggle to grapple with continental philosophy and that the mainstream narrative around WWII obscures deeper questions about Western civilization’s collision with modernity and crises that followed.
• Defining Revisionism:
  • Not just debunking myths or 'denial' but deeply questioning the narratives about fascism, communism, and the 20th-century “catastrophe.”
  • “People don’t really understand what revisionism is…it’s not just a matter of taking narratives that have been mythologized… but it’s also why these controversies came about, owed to a certain crisis in the Western concept itself.” — Thomas, [05:55]

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2. The Crisis of Western Being: Heidegger & Nolte

[12:08–27:13]

• Heidegger’s Concerns:
  • Heidegger’s engagement with National Socialism derived not from patriotism or opportunism but from his overriding concern with the “crisis of Western civilization.”
  • Concepts like ‘being’ and ‘qualia’ are introduced, stressing that, according to Heidegger, the West’s scientific rationalism led to the breakdown of metaphysical and cultural structures.
• Modernity’s Pathologies:
  • Breakdown of social capital, authority, and metaphysical boundaries leads to the emergence of technological worldviews—manifested in both communism (“being is simply labor”) and capitalism (“material progress as infinite”).
  • “You’re basically throwing [man] into chaos… that creates conditions whereby every decision he’s rendering precedes ex-nihilo.” — Thomas, [20:59]

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3. Totalitarianism, Fascism, Capitalism, and Communism

[27:44–43:11]

• Misunderstandings of ‘Totalitarianism’:
  • Nolte’s book “Fascism in Its Epoch” presented a paradigm-shifting critical analysis of fascism and National Socialism, challenging simplistic “totalitarian” labels and tracing ideological roots through French reactionaries, Italian radical movements, and ultimately as a synthesis in National Socialism.
  • “National Socialism—it’s both radical and reactionary, both revolutionary and conservative…this was actually a very coherent, very cohesive, remarkably integral ideological program. And it’s one of the reasons people responded to it like they did.” — Thomas, [41:51]

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4. Political Philosophy After WWII: The Historikerstreit

[56:23–109:48]

• Germany’s Dilemma in the Cold War:
  • Reliance on German military commitment during the Cold War clashed with the insistent portrayal of Germans as bearers of unique historic guilt.
  • The 1980s “Historians’ Dispute” (Historikerstreit): Triggered by Reagan’s Bitburg visit, the debate centered on whether Nazi crimes were unique, how to contextualize them versus Communist atrocities, and whether Germans should bear “perpetual” guilt.
  • “If you’re going to claim that National Socialism was just…the private prejudices of Adolf Hitler as policy…that doesn’t make any sense. And secondly…that’s just not how politics are conducted.” — Thomas, [68:55]
• Main Debates of the Historikerstreit:
  1. Were Nazi crimes uniquely evil or comparable to Soviet violence?
  2. Is the Sonderweg (“special path”) thesis valid?
  3. Was Nazi violence reactive to Soviet atrocities?
  4. Should Germans bear generational guilt?
• Comparative Atrocity and ‘Court History’:
  • Thomas critiques a “numbers game” approach to revisionism and stresses that narratives about evil are shaped by victors’ legal and philosophical frameworks.
  • “Court historians and people sympathetic to Zionism…or people who [fixate] on this idea that the Third Reich is the epitome of evil—they don’t get to decide…the parameters…of research.” — Thomas, [106:21]

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5. Nolte’s Revisionism Versus ‘Denialism’

[119:51–159:59]

• Positioning Nolte in the Revisionist Spectrum:
  • Nolte saw historical ideas (like Marxism, fascism, Zionism) as having animating force, not simply as contingent responses.
  • He is contrasted with figures like David Irving or Fred Leuchter — Nolte’s project is a broader analysis of intellectual processes, rather than a forensic investigation or denial of events.
• Mind as Prime Mover:
  • Thomas argues that political realities are always realities of consciousness; historical events must always be interpreted through the prism of ideological “Zeitgeist.”
• The Uniqueness of Soviet Atrocity:
  • Citing Robert Conquest, Thomas highlights the Soviet death camp system’s scale (“dwarfs the camp system of the Third Reich”) and asserts that every atrocity attributed to the Nazis (with the debated exception of gas chambers) had a Soviet precedent.

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6. Zionism, Israel, and the Final Chapter of European Modernity

[186:38–236:49]

• Nolte’s 1991 Thesis:
  • The common nucleus of modern ideological catastrophe gave rise to three “abnormal" states: Soviet Union, Third Reich, and Israel.
  • Zionism as a European, not Middle Eastern, ideology—a transplantation of mythologized, racial-national thought into the post-war state-building project.
• Modern Israel:
  • Internal contradictions between hardline religious, socialist-Zionist, and Western cosmopolitan factions questioned as existential.
  • “Israel needs…the threat or at least the conceptual spectre…of existential siege…without that, Israel doesn’t have anything…it’s going to evaporate into the pages of history.” — Thomas, [208:08]
• 1948 War & Ethnic Cleansing:
  • Detailed recounting of ‘Plan D’ and the Nakba; the systematic removal of the Arab population as central to Israel’s founding logic.
  • Support from the Soviet Union is cited as pragmatic, believing that a revolutionary, “tabula rasa” state might be a kindred socialist experiment.
  • “Zionism wasn’t just this organic movement…it was very much a European ideology…born of urban centers, the Pale of Settlement…’We need a state, a language, a mythos.’” — Thomas, [190:42]
• Israel as a Historical Anachronism:
  • As Cold War context disappears and Holocaust narrative fades in public power, Israel’s rationale as an embattled ethnostate becomes less tenable.
  • The persistence of “special pleading” for Israel is unsustainable without that fading context.

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7. Overarching Takeaways & Closing Thoughts

(Throughout Parts 1–5)

• On Narrating the 20th Century:
  • Nolte’s achievement is to recast WWII and its aftermath as a crisis of Western historical identity, not just a morality play about German evil.
  • Thomas sees the prevailing “court history” as reducing complex ideological collisions to simple narratives of villainy and innocence, which occludes meaningful historical understanding.
  • “The fruit of this transcendence…is ironically a…total degradation of the human being, at scale, and the absolute…annihilation of culture within a few generations of this.” — Thomas, [51:41]
• On Culture and Metapolitics:
  • The struggle is not over statistical atrocities or legal rulings, but the preservation, recovery, or loss of cultural consciousness and identity.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the Real Stakes of Revisionism:
  • “When we talk about revisionism, we’re not talking about arguing over gas chambers…you’ve already lost the proverbial plot if you’re doing that…The horror of human lives…being ceremoniously extinguished…why that happened and why that was inevitable…and how there was a mirror of what preceded it.” — Thomas, [09:15]
• On Modern Political Life:
  • “Philosophy lives on in political terms…whatever you can say about philosophies divorced from science…if anything, politics has become more remote from the common man’s ability to apprehend the meta-political dimension.” — Thomas, [43:19]
• On the Special Role of Zionism:
  • “The common nucleus of facts…gave rise to three totally abnormal political cultures: the Soviet Union, the Third Reich, and Israel.” — Thomas, [186:49]

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Key Timestamps of Major Segments

• [01:31] Start of content, intro to Nolte’s significance
• [15:09] Qualia, being, and Heideggerian framework
• [27:44] Definitions of capitalism, communism, and totalitarianism
• [41:51] The synthesis at the heart of National Socialism
• [56:23] Historikerstreit: Historical roots and stakes for postwar Germany
• [68:55] What ‘historical guilt’ means for national identity
• [94:40] The four core controversies per Nolte & Habermas during the historians’ debate
• [119:51] Revisionism vs. forensic denial, Nolte’s unique methodology
• [175:38] Soviet extermination system vs. Nazi system: numbers, scale, and precedent
• [186:49] Nolte’s right-Hegelian history of the 20th century and Israel’s abnormal status
• [208:08] Israel’s existential logic and return to Plan D, ethnic cleansing in 1948
• [224:01] Zionism as an idea: incompatibility with contemporary legitimizing frameworks

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Further Information

• Thomas777's platforms:
  • Twitter: @REAL_7HMES777
  • Substack: thomas777.substack.com
  • Website: thomas777.com
  • Telegram, Instagram, YouTube (Thomas TV)

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End of Summary

Transcript

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[Pete Canono]

Want to welcome everyone back to the Pete Canono Show. Thomas, it feels like we haven't talked in like four or five weeks or like a month or so. How are you doing?

[Thomas]

I'm doing well. Yeah, it's been a minute even for me. I realize, I realize I, my content workflow isn't what yours or, or Jay Burdens or some of the fellas is. Like, I, I, I probably, I probably look that probably makes me look like a special ed kid or something, am I? In my defense, I, you know, even when my health was better, I, I tend to favor highly conceptual topics and that kind of requires deep dives like on my end to prepare that kind of stuff. But you know, it. I remain impressed by the fact that you guys managed to be able to bang out the content you do with the volume you do and it's always high quality. But yeah, I, I'm gonna drop a sit rep on my sub stack. But yeah, since I've, since I've been Back from Arkansas. Like, I haven't, I haven't done, like, I haven't answered people's texts or emails. This is supposed to be my big week to catch up on some long form stuff. Like, like none of that was getting done. Like, I'm, I'm sorry for that. I, I've not been feeling well. But today. Yeah, and I, and I, I agree. A series or at least I'd like to go over three episodes, but at least two on the subject of Ernst Nolte. Not just his thought and kind of his particular school of revisionism, but what he represents. You know, he was a student of Heidegger and he became very close to the Heidegger family. And that's important. It's important not just what Heidegger in context. And I generally agree with people, including Leo Strauss, interestingly, who I don't have nice things to say about in terms of his ethics, but he did have insight into like the Western intellectual tradition. Heidegger was kind of the last continental philosopher, I think, and Nolte was very much the heir to that tradition, you know, that began with people like Meister Eckert and continued with obviously Hagel and Schopenhauer and Nietzsche, and that, that alone renders him a significant personage. But it's also, people don't really understand what, what revisionism is. It's not just a matter of taking narratives that have been mythologized by ideologically committed peoples and institutions that have been able to utilize a bully pulpit, you know, to kind of force those perspectives on, you know, on kind of the historical canvas generally. But it's also why these controversies came about, owed to a, a certain crisis in, in, in the Western concept itself. Not. I, I don't just mean ontologically, you know, in, in terms of, you know, questions people pose themselves separately and, and collectively, you know, like, who are we? Like, what, what, what is our culture? You know, like, what do, do we, do we believe in God? I mean, those things are obviously important, but I mean, the, the collision with modernity, and make no mistake, it was a collision of Western man and the k. The catastrophes that ensued from this. That can't be overstated. Okay. And Nolte, his brand of revisionism is very much grounded in that. Describing that process and identifying the 20th century and, you know, the kind of the intellectual paradigms that were emergent in the 20th century and the kind of great ideologies that gave rise to the, the Second World War and beyond, those are, those are derivative of this process and the reason why people develop a sort of blindness about this is twofold, in my opinion. Part of it is obviously there's a. There's a. There's a dominant narrative about the Second World War that the current regime is a very. It's got. It's got a very strong interest in sustaining not just because. Derives its moral legitimacy from this narrative, but in. In ontological terms, the way the world is structured morally, politically, in just an absolute conceptual terms, you know, derives from this narrative. But beyond that, there's an inability, particularly in, I think, Anglophone intellectual traditions, to really understand continental philosophy. Like even when the. Even when the variable is being described within that tradition, you know, touching concern Anglophone cultures as much as they do, you know, Germanic or Francophone ones. There's a. There's an inability to really sort of approach those things on. On the correct terms. Like, even if. Even if. I'm not even talking about accepting the. The postulates they're in. I'm saying that there's this. There's an entirely different conceptual vocabulary for approaching these things. And it's not just because, you know, oh, the, you know, the. The English and the Scots are. Are pragmatic. It's not. That's not what it is. I mean, that's like a shorthand for, you know, kind of university types who teach history of philosophy, your history of science courses. That's. We're talking about something both more opaque and. And more kind of deliberate, deliberately maintained, you know. But really, when nobody talks about revisionism, he's talking about what exactly happened in the 20th century, okay? And he's talking about what exactly National Socialism and fascism represented contra capitalism and communism, you know, and this was not. I mean, anybody who's educated on the subject, you know, knows that National Socialism had nothing to do with nationalism, whatever that means. That guy thinking was dead anyway, you know, by. By the turn of the 20th century, you know, it wasn't just. It was. It was a matter of, you know, quote unquote, scapegoating people. Because that. That doesn't make any sense. You know, I mean, even if. Even if one accepts kind of court history claims that for no particular reason this Habsburg Austrian in the form of Hitler just decided he didn't like Jewish people for. For some social reason, you know, that wouldn't.

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[Thomas]

People wouldn't respond to some. Some man's like, petty, like, personal biases, like, why would they. That's not. That's not the way things work, okay? And finally understanding how the kind of dehumanization the process of dehumanization at scale or by human lives. The. The horror of. Of. Of human lives to the. You know, at. At the level of millions being a. Ceremoniously extinguished, like, cease to. Cease to be impactful, you know, like why that happened and why that was inevitable and how there was a mirror of what preceded it. In the case of the Third Reich, and as the war situation deteriorated, the onset of the categorical extermination of people who were identified as standard bearers of the enemy idea. Okay. These are the concerns that Ernst Noli has. So when we talk about revisionism, we're not. We're not talking about arguing over, like, gas chambers, whether they existed and things like that, because you already lost. You've already lost the proverbial plot if you're doing that. Like, yes, there's a lot of. There's a lot of perjured testimony relating to the instrumentalities of execution and things. Yes, there's a lot of hyperbole that stands in for, you know, actual documented events and that kind of thing should be rebutted. But it's not what we're talking about, okay? And you're not in the game if your whole notion is basically, you know, I accept court history, but know this is wrong because this many people couldn't have been killed. Like, that's not what we're talking about. And if you're counting. If you're counting casualty lists or you're. Or you're aggregating estimates of countervalue attrition as. As some sort of like, atrocity contest, you know, that. I mean, that's. That's incredibly perverse. But it's also not. You're missing the point, you know, So I know people will be like, probably to them, they're like, well, how's an old year of vision? Is he doesn't do it, Ernest Zundel did or does and just claim none of this happened.

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[Thomas]

Zo's not a real revisionist. He was some kind of troll. He was some sort of pre Internet Troll. And don't get me wrong, like I, I, there's a place for that. Like Tom Metzger was, was in some ways one of those too. But that's not, that's not real history. And I realize I'm digressing, but Fred Loiter is a guy you should look into if you're concerned with instrumentalities and, and kind of a direct evidentiary rebuttal of some of the claims we're talking about. I mean leuth there's got something of a tragic background owing to a, the fact that kind of like Alex Jones today, Loiter was very much singled out for destruction by the regime when, when his, when, when he, when he, when he developed a, a high profile which he did not cultivate at all. But that's, that's kind of outside the scope of what we're talking about. Robert Farison is another one. If then I, I guarant you in the comments section or whatever, people are going to say that like I'm not, I'm, I'm not giving a fair shake or whatever to, to what they did. The people they consider to be kind of like, you know, the, the authors and, and writers who constant origin is canon. But getting into what our, our subject for the day, a lot is made of, of Heidegger's purported affinity for National Socialism. And even people who are sympathetic to Heidegger, they seem to misunderstand that the claim is well, Heidegger was attracted to Nazism, you know, because he was a German patriot. And then when he realized that these were horrible people, he retreated from that and, or they, or they claim that, you know, he, he, he coveted directorship of Fryberg University. And this is simply a career decision or something like none of that even comes close to the truth of the, the situation. Heidegger was concerned first, last and always with the crisis of Western civilization, okay. And this in his opinion had been underway at least since the Thirty Years War and probably white well before in terms of the, the kind of cultural mind notion is that the function of the culture, what culture is the culture relates directly to the question of being. This, the translating exactly what he means by being is, is difficult. It's one part logos, it's one part quellia, it's one part consciousness, it's one part sentience. But the way to understand it and kind of short hat short again.

[Pete Canono]

What's quail? What's qualia?

[Thomas]

Quality is basically what people who study consciousness, it's what they define as like that intangible factor that like makes humans human. It goes, it's something beyond self awareness, but that, it's like ill defined in, in, in quantitative terms. But it's basically that combination of, you know, the ability to reason abstractly, self awareness, the, and the ability to like act intentionally like they're in that, that, that makes up like the human consciousness is distinguished even from the most intelligent animals. Okay. It's a neuroscience term, I believe that's its original kind of providence. But you know, in fundamental senses

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[Thomas]

is always kind of this question that, that, that's, that, that's, that's, that's ever present, okay? You're thrust into the world, you know, as a baby and basically the process of your mind developing is the process by which, you know, you come to understand being. You know, and even like even the most dull witted human being, there's times at which you know, he's, he's metaphorically speaking startled by the strangeness of his, his existence in the world, okay? That's, even the most primitive societies have some notion of God, okay? Even if it's just some idolatrous mockup of a bull or something because you know, we, we slaughter the bulls and from there you know, we can eat and then we can survive. So that is God, okay? So being to Heidegger and to traditionally Aryan man or Indo European if you prefer, the kind of neologism was always an open ended question. You know, it always, it, it, it always, it's, it's the vantage point of it is always involves man kind of staring into a conceptual abyss. Okay? Even that's not, that doesn't mean it's intrinsically sinister, but it's existentially disturbing because it's unknown. Okay? Now in Heidegger's view, man comes to live historically because this is how the question of being is answered. Or at least this is the way that it's reconciled with human existence. Moment to moment, man experiences time. You know, time is, time basically governs in both prosaic and profound terms like everything man does in an individual capacity as well as in a, in a, in, in a collective one, okay? And moment to moment, man is forced to make decisions. And what braggits all those decisions is time. And thus death. Man's always confronting his own just oblivion generally as well as his own death. Okay? Now what mitigates the terror of that, but what also allows man to kind of conceptualize what being is in both his day to day existence as well as in transcendental terms is that looking at one's existence backwards from this very moment. Now there's an infinite number of aggregate decisions that led to this point, okay, rendered by my forbears, rendered by peoples who I've literally inherited, you know, everything from the way I speak to my folk ways, you know, to like my biological aspects. There's this chain of existence literally stretching backwards to the very moment at which my ancestors became human. That is essentially again an aggregate of endless decisions rendered that constitute decisions within that temporal bracketing and the process by which, you know, questions are posed second to second, moment to moment, hour to hour, year to year, decade to decade, epoch to epoch. And as we come to understand these things in aggregate, and as an aggregate process, a dialectical phenomenon comes into conceptual view, okay? And that's what it is really to be, okay? It doesn't resolve obviously what it is, but it places it in a context that is at least rational within its bounded temporal terms. And that mitigates the terror of just, you know, living in, in a world of the absolutely unknown in which all beings and objects and, and phenomenon are, are just mysterious and threatening and you know, totally unknowable according to the, the senses and, and in the human mind. Now that's a basically Aristotelian view, okay? I don't want to go off on how exactly that is because then we'll be here for weeks. But that, that understanding of, of a dialectical process and the temporal bracketing of that process is basically Aristotelian contra was essentially a Platonist view and ultimately what became the Christian view, which is that being is this kind of presence, this transcendental presence, okay? And you come to know that presence through a combination of, you know, pious commitment to knowing it and through divine grace, both of which are totally outside of temporal consideration. Okay? Now it's not for me to argue nor to height, nor did Heidegger suggest that there's not priestly type men or, or literal prophets who can apprehend this and you know, come to know God in this way that I. There's no reason to believe that that is not possible. Okay? But in the terms and context we're talking about the way in which cultures develop around the principles that I described, specifically the way the west developed it basically repudiated. It was basically a self repudiating postulate, you know, like as, as the scientific perspective and as the, as scientism, as Wolf King Smith called it. And as, you know, the kind of conceptual biases of rationalism crowded out all other ways of knowing. You know, it's like, okay, well we, we we came to understand the world is just, you know, being populated by various beings that we can empirically interpret and identify. And like within that paradigm, where is God? You know, you, you can't identify God in those terms. Not. Because there's not, you know, indicators of God within the, you know, the, the physical world or anything like that. But you're, it's a totally. Conceptually, it's, it's a totally different vocabulary, okay? So when you remove man from historical time and then you remove him out of these practices that at one time allowed him, you know, to apprehend being as a divine presence, you're. You're basically throwing him into chaos, okay? That, that creates conditions whereby every decision he's rendering precedes ex neo. Okay? This leaves all kinds of pathologies. You know, it, it leads to people, you know, it leads to social pathologies, you know, in banal terms, you know, because social capital breaks down, it leads to the deterioration of authority. Because why, why would people conceptualize authority is deriving from anything other than convenience or, you know, or power qua power. But most, most importantly, what it does is it forces people to organize themselves according to what is knowable and what can allow them to recapture temporal boundaries. And that's basically that which is technological. Okay? And this leads to uniquely insidious outcomes, okay? One of which was communism, which aside from, yes, within Marxist, within Marxism, there's absolutely ethno sectarian prejudices therein, like, you know, all throughout it, but in absolute terms like where the rubber meets the road as praxis. What Marxist Leninism dictated was basically that, you know, being is simply labor. You know, it's, it's this process of work and of working, you know, by which man can shield himself from the elements and feed himself and you know, avoid. Avoid pain as much as, you know, is. Can be reasonably as much as within a realm of reasonable expectation, you know, until like eventually he dies and that's it, you know, and there's an internal logic to that that is pretty remarkably consistent. I advise people read Das Capital because I made the point of people like Marxism. Marxism is nonsense, but it's actually very well thought out nonsense. The rebuttal of that as well, you know, it's completely self referencing, but I mean that, that's the shortcoming of every, of every modern ideology like Capital. I like theology, you know, in the proper sense because by, by categorically by definition, its reference points are. Our beings are quantifiable objects. So there's really, it's. You're Talking about the complete abolition of metaphysics, okay? The kind of. The kind of mirror of communism was capitalism. Now there's. There's a problematic term. I know people say, well, capitalism is just occur. A coin, a term coined.

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[Thomas]

you know, by Marxists themselves. And it appears in stuff like. Com Manifesto. That's true, but there is. It's shorthand for the technological perspective. Okay, that perspective is basically that material progress is basically potentially infinite. You know, the world. It's. It's kind of a perversion of the anthropic principle. It's that, oh well, you know, man can perceive how to exploit all these objects in the world around him and even his own body to maximum plenty, you know, to maximum pleasure, to basically infinite wealth. And that's. That's basically the key to being. Okay, is this where.

[Pete Canono]

Where would. Where would transhumanism be on that scale?

[Thomas]

It's an extreme manifestation of the latter, what I just described and key to transhumanism. It's so. It's intrinsic to it. So it's not something that's emphasized, I believe, because it's. Proponents just take it for granted, this idea that, oh well, there's, you know, as. As we advance, we're going to resolve all manner of shortage because we'll basically be able to just kind of like create like matter from nothing. Like it's. It seems like a science fiction concept, although less so as time goes on. You know, in movies like that movie. You know that movie District 9. Have you ever seen it?

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Yeah, definitely.

[Thomas]

Okay, well, you know how like the alien technology, it's basically this fluid, but it's like a smart nanotech fluid. So if like you add it to a human body, it's gonna try and like reconstitute it according to what it knows about bio. What has been program of biology. So it turns guy into an alien. If you like, apply it to like a fuel source or like insinuate into a fuel source. You know, it's going to try and, like, purge the impurities, you know, to make it, like, most like, combustible or whatever. That's. I've noticed in transhumanism when people say, like, oh, but what about sustainability or what about this? What about that? They basically always fall back and like, well, this is just going to be resolved, you know, by, by, you know, by something. By something that can just sort of like, replicate whatever is needed, you know, and. Because that's the short. That's a shortcoming of the, of the, of the technological perspective, like, writ large. Like, at some point you, like, run out of stuff to be, you know, like. Like, kind of, like to kind of oversimplify it, you know, like, if there's not. There's not more things to exploit. I. I mean that in like, a value neutral term, like, just if the material is not there, like, what do you. You're done, you know.

[Pete Canono]

Well, that's also the whole thing about, you know, in Star Trek, you see these machines that just create food, and it's like, yeah, what's that machine run on?

[Thomas]

Yeah.

[Pete Canono]

And what happens if that's taken away?

[Thomas]

Well, it's interesting, too. Like, I don't want to digress too much, but it's like that was the, the reason why people went crazy about nuclear power, you know, like, thinking, you know, like, literal, like, atomic age stuff. Like, this is, you know, a brave new era of, of infinite energy. Like, you can, like, for all practical purposes, like, atomic energy is like power from nothing. Like, eventually, yeah, like your, your fuel source does burn out, but that's, but, but it's. It's exponential. It's got an exponentially longer life than any other deceivable fuel source. That's why. That's what you're gonna see colliding more and more, too, is that these transhumanist types who think that they, who think that that's, like, what their utopia is, but at the same time, they're, like, terrified of. Of things like nuclear power. It's like, so you can't have it both ways.

[Pete Canono]

But.

[Thomas]

No, that's the. Yeah, that's why. Yeah, that's. That's in every. That's one of the reasons why Dune is smart science fiction. Everybody's a different kind of thing. But, you know, like, Dune deals in, at planetary level, like, shortage economies, which eventually everything becomes a shortage economy, you know, over on a long enough timeline, no matter how conservationist you are, you know, it's, you know, the Har Conans, the Harkonnens have become incredibly Wealthy, but the cost was basically like annihilating photosynthetic potential on their planet. So they're like a dying society. You know, I got a rack as itself. You know, there's no water. So I mean like everything from the way people greet one another to, you know, the way, like the way military doctrine is organized, you know, is account for the, you know, the shortage of water. You know, like the entire. The galactic imperium runs on this narcotic that's also, you know, like a life enhancing, like geriatric, but that also has, you know, the basic, this like practical necessity of allowing navigators to, to perceive like what pathways could be navigated through space without, you know, losing. Without like 50 attrition or something for their, for their guild highlighters. But, but that's to bring it back like what Heidegger's, what Heidegger saw in the Third Reich. It wasn't so much that he's like. It was, it wasn't so much they thought Hitler himself was a heroic figure, although he may have. I mean, frankly, I made the point before. Germans didn't particularly like the nsdap. They loved Adolf Hitler. It wasn't so much that he thought the National Socialist program was this incredible revolutionary program. It's that this was the first time in the modern age and at almost, at the most critical juncture, owing to the revolutionary situation underway globally, that there was some kind of political cadre talking about what we just discussed. You know, Hitler was saying there is a crisis in Western civilization. You know, nobody else was saying that. You know, whether he was wrong or right or good or evil or neither. You know, it wasn't Huey Long wasn't, wasn't saying that, you know, there's a spiritual crisis in the west and that's why like, our system's breaking down and we can no longer. We can no longer sustain, you know, like a moral or social consensus. You know, nobody in the Soviet Union, I mean the problems, they were all dead. Was saying, you know, well, this is, this is a confrontation basically with God and, and transcendence. You know, nobody on this planet was saying that. I think the Japanese were. But that's a whole other subject and that's a fascinating topic as to why, you know, why there was that affinity. And Italian fascism had something of a different source. And we'll get into that as we get into nature proper. That was related to the kind of intellectual nexus that National Socialism was. But it was different. It was far more radical. It was, it was far more of it. Was far more of, of. Of a. Of a revolutionary response to conditions immediately precedent. But so basically Heider's understanding was it the, the form this is going to take in, in ideological terms isn't really important. You know, the fact that this is conceptually front and center is what is important. And if this movement is allowed to be destroyed, there's going to be no more Europe, you know, and again, not. Not because he saw that there was something intrinsically sacred about the National Socialist movement or something like there in Heidegger's mind, like that kind of thing wasn't even possible through political activity. But this was the spark of that awakening. Okay? And that's, that's, that's. That's what's important. I mean, that's. The. So no. Enter. No. Was. He was a student of Heidegger and he became very close to the family. He downplayed this. And a lot of his opponents act like this was something sinister or something like. I. No, the absolute was not, you know, like running from some sinister association. I mean, that's preposterous. Is that he, he didn't want to mine clout from a man who was, you know, a really like an intellectual giant. And I think anybody who's serious in their study carnival philosophy, whether they accept all the Heidegger's postulates or not, acknowledges that, you know, what really. The book that first put Nolte on the map was the Fascist Missing Signer Epoch. Fascism in its epoch. It was translated English as Three Phases of Fascism. Okay? And this was probably the first serious treatment of fascism and National Socialism from a critical perspective through the lens of, you know, continental philosophy and political theory. Something that became. Something that had become popular in the 50s was this idea of totalitarianism and that, I mean, part of this was just typical kind of Cold War vernacular extrapolated to the academy and passed off as that some sort of meaningful analysis in lieu of, you know, just kind of cheap polemic, which in my opinion it was cheap polemic. But this. There's this idea, there's this kind of like pop sociological under, like understanding in the academy that oh, well, what, what really distinguishes, what really distinguishes modern states one another is that places like the Third Reich and the Soviet Union were totalitarian. You know, presumably in America and in the uk, you know, we value personal liberty and things, and so we don't have to suffer the total state because our people wouldn't tolerate it. I mean, that's stupid for all kinds of reasons. And it also obviously doesn't account for the fact that these, these states that supposedly share like a common. Like a common value system, these totalitarian states, like waged these like utterly devastating like Ross and Creek conflicts against one another. But you know, no, basically his objective was the. The kind of like rebut that foolishness as well as do. As well as the tackle some of the more serious critiques and treatments of the Third Reich. But they nevertheless kind of like missed the mark. Basically what he laid down is that the Action Francaise, which. Who's kind of got leading intellectual was Charles Morras. You know, he said, look, you know, France, which had. France was kind of the perial canary in the coal mine as regards revolutionary processes. Obviously, you know, it was. It was at the turn of the 19th century, you know, that France was utterly devastated by a revolutionary historical impulse. So he said that nobody suggested that a kind of. A kind of deep seated reactionary tendency developed in France, okay? And that which endures. So the opposition in France is always going to be like radically conservative, okay? And people like the Maestra, you know, the counter Enlightenment philosophers there was very much like a Francophone like stamp on this, okay? So he says that emerging in the 20th century, kind of like the first truly like modern like, like in 20th century terms, like reactionary movement was like the action frenzy, okay? You said the, the response to that reaction were the Italian fascists, okay, who were. It was basically a radical proletarian movement, you know, that it was. It was a form of both resistance to. In reaction against modernity, but it also embraced like certain aspects of hyper modernity, you know, which seemed. Which seemed incoherent to people who don't really understand was underway. But there was a. I think that one of the reasons I emphasize George Sorrell so much is because thinkers like him are kind of the tie that finds what seems like opposing tendencies. But. And most significant, Nolte suggested National Socialism was a synthesis of these two tendencies, you know, which themselves were a reaction against, you know, the tendency towards Bolshevism as the new kind of. As the new iteration of. Of, you know, what had. What was first emergent with the Jacobin revolution, you know, thus National Socialism. It's both. It's both radical and reactionary. It's both revolutionary and conservative. You know, his point was this is. This was actually a very coherent, very cohesive, remarkably integral ideological program. And it's one of the reasons people responded to it like they did. Like this idea was just some. I mean politicians are constantly trying to. Conventional politicians, they're constantly promising all Things, all people, they're constantly preaching, especially in those days, some kind of reconciliation between the classes. They're getting absolutely nowhere, you know, whatsoever. But you're supposed to believe the national Socialists, they could just somehow like, remedy these things, like good propaganda.

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[Thomas]

Even though there was no coherence to it, like, it's ridiculous, you know, like one of the reasons why they were able to capture the man that they were was because they were uniquely astride the dialectical process as it was either resolving or coming to pieces. Everyone perceives it, you know, as of, you know, like 1929, 1930. Nalti also made the point that even people who are partisans and standard bearers of the spirit of the age in which they live, and even men who are willing to literally kill or die for their ideological commitments, they may not even be fully aware of. Of what, of, of what, of what phenomena they are serving or what, or what they're participating in and what's underway in, in apocal terms. No's opinion was basically that, look, philosophy lives on in political terms. You know, whatever you can say about, you know, philosophies having been, you know, divorced from what's become scientific practice. Whatever you can say about, you know, anything related to, to the conventional sociology, politics, if anything, has become like, more remote from the common man's ability to, to apprehend, you know, the meta political dimension of politics as he was observing it, you know, in the early Cold War. Nolte's opinion was one of the reasons these are particularly dangerous times. It's not just because the state of technics and obviously, you know, like the, the development of the bomb and things like this, but you've got people who absolutely have no, no ability to perceive what's underway and, and they're, they're, they're at the helm of, of great power states and they've, they've. They're either conflating, you know, rhetoric with reality or they perceive the fact that they've been able to capture, you know, they've been able to They've been able to rise the, the front office or the, or the, or the, or the titular head of a state organ that at least can, you know, manufacturing and sent to the degree that, you know, they're, they're not going to be removed by. By force. You know, they take that as some sort of like providential indicator that, you know, they're somehow fit to render decisions when they absolutely are not. And this is important. The. And this was in fact, this was in fact an aspect too that I believe Heidegger felt was present in and fascism that. Mind you, there was plenty of national associate gal writers who weren't particularly intelligent. Even those who were didn't view themselves as, as some kind of like. Some kind of like high priesthood of the political or something. But these guys did view themselves almost not exception as initiates in. To historical processes. You know, that they came to perceive either through their baptism by fire at the front as young men or, you know, by some sort of epiphany that a lot of people suggested that they had, you know, in the company of Hitler. I mean, whether you accept that or not, there was an understanding among, among National Socialists, among fascists, stuff like the Iron Guard was a bit different. I look at that kind of stuff as like adjacent but not really the same phenomenon. It was far more kind of conventionally theological and, and related to, to what we think of as, as the crusader impulse, like literally. But just the very fact that these men looked at themselves in the terms that I described says that they were conceptualizing politics in a way that their enemies were not. Okay, like the cope. Of. Of anti fascism. Well, that's because they were crazy, okay? But that's not, that's, that's not. That's a non answer. It's a non perspective. The way these people, like the true National Socialist partisans, in Noli's estimation, They viewed the process that we talked about a moment ago at the outset of not just, you know, the removal of man from history by the. And by. And the removal of man from historical time by the combination of the technological perspective and the deterioration of, you know, the ability to approach God in either pious or. Or conceptual terms. Nolte believed that this would never like man would never recover, okay, if the kind of practical transcendence, what he called it of the Soviet Union and the United States of Sovietism and Americanism reached full realization. What do you mean by practical transcendence, okay? When man is able to master things that once were believed only to be the, the, the. The. The domain of God. That is when. That's when God is truly dead in the. In. In the collective, like, cultural mind. Okay? Like, whether you're talking about, you know, the conquest of space, whether you're talking about the hubris of, like, a culture that claims, like, we can turn, like, a male into a female and vice versa, like. Or you're talking about people who claim, like, you know, we can. We.

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[Thomas]

We can create humans, like, outside of a woman's womb, you know, just by the manipulation of. Of gametes and things. Yes, okay, that kind of thing is born of a hubris which is not remotely godly. But we're talking about. We're talking about cultural mindset and, you know, we're talking about the way these things are. The way these things are. Are devised according to, you know, man generally. Man's ability to perceive it generally. And again, we're already talking about conditions whereby man's ability to know God has been reparatively compromised. Okay? This is a basic vulnerability here. You know, the. The irony being, of course, that as this kind of practical transcendence is accomplished, you know, the absence of culture and the ripping out a man from these temporal boundaries that facilitate culture, that makes it more brutish, like, more ignorant, like, more impoverished. You know, it breeds literal backwardness because people no longer understand, you know, race and class anymore. You know, people no longer pursue meaningful education. You know, at best, you know, like an educated man's a technician. You know, like, it becomes it. The.

[Pete Canono]

Like.

[Thomas]

Like the fruit of this transcendence. And this ability to create, you know, godlike techniques and presumably generate wealth out of nothing is ironically, a. A kind of. Like a kind of total degradation of the. Of the human being, you know, at scale. And the absolute, like, annihilation of culture within a few generations of this. Presumably, the result is what Hitler said about the. The destruction of man's ability to bear culture as. As being the end result of an intention of a Bolshevized planet whereby people won't really be people anymore. Like, regardless of the mentioned material in question, they'll have no memory of culture. They'll be. They'll be unable to bear it even if they did. You know, you'll. You know, people basically who live on the level of animals, just. They'll have an ability to, you know, speak and, you know, think abstractly insofar as, you know, being able to kind of. Kind of like the next day, what they want to fill their belly with or satisfy whatever glandular impulse by accomplishing. But, you know, they the only thing that really makes. Makes man man is culture. There's not, there's not. That's an anatomical thing or what have you or. Or some special structure in his brain that. That makes this impossible. You know. And this is a. This is what was a fundamental concern to Nolte and this is I believe why he began writing what he did as. As the Cold War be in heating up. And I want to. I want to wrap this up in a minute because I'm not feeling great. And also I. I realize this is like a long introduction man, but I think it's important because like I assuming you're okay with this, this your show. Next episode I want to get into the historians debate or the historic of straight as it was called the historians controversy. This is what put Nolty on the map, kind of on the academic map. I mean people who, people in. Who had an interest in. In carnival philosophy and, and in serious scholarship of the Third Reich knew of him. But it was the late 1980s kind of as. As philosophical and politically philosophical discussion of. Of. Of the Third Reich and the Soviet Union. You know, kind of as the Cold War was winding down, this kind of thing was at its most intense, interestingly. But next episode we'll get into like how that was emergent and how exactly Nolte became affiliated or identified. Not affiliated, you know, with like Holocaust revisionism, which like I said, there's nothing at all wrong with Holocaust revisionism. But no, he's adjacent. But a different. Represents a different tendency and we'll get into what I mean by that. I hope that this was not too scatter shot. I didn't bore people. Also I'm not feeling great, so forgive me man, if like my ideas were not terribly fluid.

[Pete Canono]

No, no problem at all. Do some plugs and we'll end it.

[Thomas]

Yeah, man. You can always find me at the substack. It's real Thomas 777subs.com we got a chat there too. In addition to like my. In addition to my podcast and like videos and other cool stuff, you can always find me on Twitter, at least for the time being. They like monetize me, so I don't think they're getting IM nuke me. But you never know. It's at capital R E A L number 7 HMES 777. You always find me on my website. It's real Thomas 777.com real Ariel or it's just Thomas77.com. I'm sorry. As you can tell, I'M at feverish. It's just number 7 HMAS777.com I'm on telegram. I'll probably get more active as I have less time on social media to around. You can find me on YouTube. It's Thomas TV. Do a search for Thomas77 on YouTube and you'll find me. Yeah, man. That's what I got.

[Pete Canono]

All right, thank you. Until the next episode. Thanks, Thomas.

[Thomas]

Yeah, man.

[Pete Canono]

I want to welcome everyone back to the Pete Canono Show. Thomas is here. And we're going to jump into part two of a dive into Ernst Nolte. How you doing, Thomas?

[Thomas]

We're doing well. There's a context to what became known as the historic or strike beyond the obvious that needs to be addressed. The kind of first proverbial shots fired across the vow, specifically relating to revisionist treatments of the Holocaust and historic historiographical terms. That conversation was started at least between public intellectuals and in the Bundest republic, there was an active community of public intellectuals. Not just because of the peculiar and rather tragic conditions that characterize that state, you know, sociologically and politically. But the Cold War meant that these people had a say in policy discussions that they wouldn't otherwise. I mean that was in any, in any combatant state to the Cold War. And when one considers the ongoing status of mobilization and everything else, I don't think it's hyperbole to refer to NATO and their Warsaw packed ops as combatant states. In every country thus situated, you had a coterie of. Of intellectuals who were not just permitted to speak on policy matters but were expected to do so. But in Germany, this, this was particularly, this is particularly visible a tendency, an active, a kind of discourse.

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[Thomas]

what kicked off the historic strike was. I mean the immediate catalyst was Reagan's Bitburg speech. For people who are too young to know or don't remember the dday anniversary, the 40th anniversary in 84, Reagan was. Reagan was in Europe anyway for NATO related Summit type diplomatic activities. He spoke at Bitburg and he went out of his way to say that the Voffan SS and Vermont warded buried there were victims of the war just as much as the Allied war dead and they should be respected. He was basically parody what Conrad Adenauer said ad or much as people on the right dislike him. I don't have many nice things to say about ad Hour but he's, he's a complicated figure. And Aden Hour said he ed now insisted that Vermont veterans get, get full pension rights. The Bob SS was not so fortunate but that's, that's why they established their own, you know, networks to facilitate that kind of thing. But this sparked this kind of whole. I mean obviously the Reds, like the actual Reds were still like very powerful then. Their, their narrative was well you see that this just proves that you know that NATO was just a fascist. That like a reconstituted fascistic block, they're just trying to, trying to halt the advance of history, you know by, by military armor from the threat of nuclear war. And of course they, they find common cause with these dead fascists, you know these kinds of, these sort of military social democrats. They basically parroted that but for a lot more dishonest and dishonorable reasons. You know they. Reagan was kind of Donald Trump before there was a Trump. You know, I mean his, he was a lot more of a significant figure in, in terms of power political phenomenon things obviously it's the world situation but you know the narrative people. Reagan was a man that people love to hate, you know of for the kind of permanently aggrieved opposition, you know in America and as well as in the eu. The, there's a broader context of Bitburg though that relates to Helmet Cole and like we've talked about Cole a lot in these series that we do. Cole was about the only like truly kind of nationalistic minded consular post war, you know and that like his, his final act in that role like we talked about was the unconditional recognition of the independent state of Croatia which like monkey wrenched a lot of the designs of Bush and Baker and what they hope to accomplish in Europe after the Cold War, you know, but it wasn't just, it wasn't just placating coal. Like people have to understand that there was this bizarre situation after detente fell apart and, and, and Dayton was dead. Was, was, was dead. Is, is, is Dillinger really even before Reagan took the oath of office. Okay. And a few things owed to that which are kind of outside the scope of our immediate discussion. Here, but such that it was. The Cold War was back on in earnest. The Buddhist Republic had a military draft. They weren't just expected to participate in the defense of, of Europe from Warsaw Pact. They were the, they were the main line of resistance. Okay, so we were drafting these guys, you know, directly out of high school. We're putting them on what was to be the front line of World War III in nuclear command and control terms. The, the, the NATO charter demanded and what operations protocol was was that American nuclear weapons based in the Bundes Republic warheads would always be in the possession of, of American forces, but their launch vehicles would be under control of the Bundes Republic. And in order to be married to those vehicles, there had to be an agreement on a legitimate launch order. So basically we were relying on these people to, to essentially commit suicide to stop the Soviet Union when the Warsaw Pack onslaught came. Now if you're going to do that while at the same time saying Germany is basically a constitutionally evil country like race of people and German militarism is the source of all, all woes in the world, there's a, there's a cognitive dissonance there that can't be sustained in policy terms. And that's becoming more and more clear. You know, and for context, the main, the main line of resistance if, if war up packed, had in fact assaulted, obviously the battle of Berlin would have been a maelstrom. The Bundes Fair had to defend. They were expected to defend Berlin. They were expected to reinforce the Benelux and the British and the north German plane and they're expected to defend the folded gap at all costs to the last man with nuclear weapons if necessary and to reinforce and reconstitute forces there basically until they could no longer do so. You're talking about a million dead Germans within a few days. Okay. And again, you can't. If that's, if that's standing policy

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[Thomas]

you're public about that policy, because that's the only way that you can maintain credibility contra op for you've got to be willing to back it up politically. And if you're Ronald Reagan, that means you can't go to Bitburg and say that these men buried here who died resisting Communism, I might add, you know, are the scum of the earth and they're evil and we must never let them rise again. I mean this should be obvious to anybody, but you know, one of the perverse aspects of the Cold War I think was that there was a, there was an aspect of the left who were truly like worse offx sympathizers. I mean obviously, I mean though that, that that element was always far stronger and more organically constituted in Europe than it was in America. But there was some of that in America even after the 68 kind of schism. But like a lot of these people were just, I mean they were just, they were just disengaged. Like they had no. Like it's like it didn't compute that right or wrongly America was in the Cold War. It couldn't just be stopped, you know. And I mean unless, unless America was going to call it off or seed, you know, the inner German border to the communists. I mean this, the, not just the, the mainline resistance and the sphere punct of NATO's military capability, but also the political will to resist Warsaw Pact

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[Thomas]

political terms, you know, came down to Germany's continued willingness to, to contribute. You know, so this is kind of what opened the door to what became known as you know, the historic or strife. And I made the point in the first episode the reason why I deep dive so much in an old's background. It's not just because I've got my own interests in political theory and philosophical things. It's because the reason why Nolties lumped in with, you know, all revisionists. So they're talking about people like Fred Leiter or Ernest Zel or David Irving, like basically every just lumped into the revisionist camp. If they reject this claim that the German people are this atavistic population that is prone to homicidal racial hatred at scale, that the Third Reich was the spontaneous unprovoked criminal conspiracy to carry out those aforementioned tendencies against a scapegoated population, again for no particular reason other than hostility, like ambiguous hostility. And also that the reason why the 20th century was characterized by these deep crises that culminated in you know, two global conflagrations and then a half century of nuclear brinksmanship is because of some sort of sonder vague within Germany's cultural trajectory that makes them prone to militarism. Like none of that makes any sense. Okay? I mean that should be clear to anybody who's at all sophisticated on political or military matters. That's just not how. This is not how populations, behave at scale. And politically that's just not how things work.

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[Thomas]

no starting point was basically like long before 804586 when the historic of straight really jumped off in earnest. Like no, he made that point in his earlier books. He said if you're going to claim that National Socialism was just this sort of, was just sort of like the private prejudices of Adolf Hitler as policy. He's like, well, pretty much every German executive, whether you're talking about, you know, Carl Luger, the mayor of Haps Post Haps for Vienna, whether you're talking about Bismarck or you're talking about Hindenburg, like, none of these people could have be said to have like, have like liked Jews or like not dislike Jews. Categorically. The idea there's some weird thing in policy terms that people hadn't heard before but all deeply felt, that doesn't make any sense. And secondly, again, that's just not because racism isn't. Isn't. That's not, that's not, that's not an explanation. And that's just that just not how politics are conducted. And finally, as I've said before, some of this is deliberately misconstrued. Some of it's because people are remote enough from the epoch. They don't really understand this. The Germans weren't obsessed with race in a way that other people weren't. Germans talking about Jews as this race that's different than them. That's the way everybody thought. Like, not necessarily about Jews, but that's what they thought about human behavior. You know, human behavior is biological. If you want to understand, you know, political behavior, it's racial. You know, what, what, what makes it possible for people to live among each other is this kind of like blood compatibility, you know, so, oh, obviously there's tension between Germans and Jews or between Poles and Jews or Poles and Russians because they're different races. That's what they meant. They weren't saying Jews are this evil race that's different than us because we're obsessed with race. And we've, we figured this all out. That's the way everybody talked. That's the way everybody thought. And that doesn't make any sense. And that's weird. Like, I'm not saying there's not racial differences between people. I'm saying in those terms that's not the way people think about politics anymore. That's the way everybody thought about politics. In the 1920s, 30s and 40s, America was singularly obsessed with this idea that, you know, eugenics could and selective intervention, whether it's sterilizing people who are deemed to be criminal incorrigibles, or whether it was, you know, facilitating, you know, large families among high IQ people. They people were convinced that this was going to usher in some utopia. Okay, so that's not an explanation to say that like, oh, Germans had race on the brain and just decided they didn't like Jews because they were an impure race or something. That's. That's totally the wrong way to look at it. Like, you can say that that kind of thinking is. And it's. And it's nonsense, but to characterize it as like evil German thought or some crazy thing German people thought, you know, that was exclusive to their cultural pathologies or something, that's complete nonsense. So is that too.

[Pete Canono]

And it's. It's survived. I mean, you see it today with this whole Candace Owens Daily wire thing. Yeah. You even have people who you never would have thought come out and say things like, the cause of anti Semitism is Jewish behavior.

[Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even the term itself too. Like, why. So. So there's tension between Germans and Jews because. Because Germans hate Semitism. Like, what do they even mean? Like, what the is Semitism? You know, like, that's like saying. That's like saying. Like, yeah. You know, the Koreans and the Chinese are. They. They. They dislike each other because of epicantic foldism. Like, it. I mean, it doesn't. Like it suggests that there's some immutable trait, like, unrelated to politics that. That people just, you know, somehow decide that is a basis for animosity. And like, it's not. That's not the way things work. You know, that's why. That's why I discourage people from using that term. Like, anti. Semitism is even more meaningless than racism. I mean, at least like. At least say, like. I mean, race obviously exists and it's conceivable that, like, you know, there's people who for no particular reason, you know, just have certain preferences and prejudices, you know, because race is an essential characteristic and we're talking about humans. Like that makes sense. Like, you know, Germans just oppose Semitism. But the best is that Palestinians are anti Semitic. So like, they're anti themselves. I mean, like, I don't like what it's. It's literally retarded.

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[Thomas]

But anyway. But noi no was basically, I mean I think he was, he was a remarkable guy. I mean that goes without saying. And he had a far more, he had a far greater aptitude for analysis of the historical process than, than most people even even kind of who are of his class and caliber. But his view of Germany's sort of tragedy and heritage, that's, that's basically like a right Hegelian view. It's not, it's not this like outlandish thing. And one of the reasons why he was so sort of savagely excoriated by his enemies, you know, the degree to which legal reasoning becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. And I, I invoke Al Wendell Holmes a lot. Who I think Al Holmes Jr. I think a lot of people don't read because I, maybe because I was a lawyer and like I, I spent a lot of time with legal theory and case law and, and things people this idea that Home junior was like this big liberal or something like they don't point out legal realism is there's no such thing and that the law is not a science. It's not this process by which you know, a kind of like science and ethics can be discovered or by which you know, outcomes can be guaranteed that on a long enough timeline or assuming good faith among actors, potential actors to, to the controversy at bar, you know, the best possible outcomes for all parties can be realized. His whole point was that all the law is, is political preferences that are totally arbitrary in any given epoch. You know, dressed up as, as some sort of, some sort of logical like, like as some sort of imperative based on a science of logic. And that's complete horeshit. And because world order was so much structured according to the letter of according not just, not just, not just letter of rhetoric but to, but like legitimacy was so much bound up with language, you know, laid down by supposedly, by supposedly objective international tribunals. First of Forest Nuremberg. This idea that oh this, this, this is just an absolute truth, you know, that oh obviously you know there was, there was this, there's this massive conspiracy to murder Jewish people for no reason hatched in 1923 by this, by this criminal cadre. I mean the court said so you know, and if you're gonna base, if you're gonna base what succeeded the moral consensus as regarded war and peace on what amounts to an ideological statement dressed up as a criminal court decision that kind of tortured logic and, and sort of like non reasoning is, is going to take on this outside significance. So that's part of it, you know, so pointing out obvious and, and not so obvious, but troubling facts of history related to the reality of, you know, kind of the anthropological and sociological origins of conflict at scale. This is like outraged people because, you know, they like the, like the simpletons kind of intellectual sanctuary is always legalism, you know. And I made the point too that by, by the time strategic parody had set in, I mean even beforehand, probably by the time the single Integrated Operation Plan, which is America's strategic war fighting doctrine, I mean by the time like that just became openly accepted that to fight and win a nuclear war we're going to kill 80 million people. I mean, like it, you know, you, you no longer can talk about, you know, you no longer can invoke this kind of faux moral outrage about anything that went on in World War II. And you, you certainly can't declare that, you know, that men who devise the technologies of mega death or her implement them at scale in executive capacities or, or somehow the enemies of humanity. I mean that like nobody even like a child can see like why that's ridiculous. But, but that's why that, that, that, that was the context. And that's what's interesting today too, because people still try to tear down n postulates, but increasingly they can't do it. I mean, first of all, I mean there's just. People in academ are just lacking and they're not built for it. But they're also. There's not like really a context anymore. You know, like they can't. There's like without the, without sort of the Cold War, you know, not just as an existential sort of reality around which things just orbit, you know, politically and sociologically in existential terms. You know, there's not, there's not the contextual focus in order to kind of provide people with ethical like let alone ontological sort of polestars as to where like to situate themselves or like what the starting point should be for, for such a discussion. But something I wanted to get into a little bit too is you know, the, The historians who did, who were basically viewed as, as sympathetic to the Bundes as a, like, as an institution and its, its political and military mission. These were guys, I'd say the guy who kind of most exemplified that position was Yakam Fest. It shows you how sort of like perverted discourse had become and remains. Although thankfully it's not quite as bad around the issue of Germany and German, the German historical experience. Like Fest, his father was this Was this anti government extremist in the Third Reich Best actually. He either served in the Vermont or the Vaan SS in the final days of the war, which I think is quite heroic. But he, he hid this fact until the day he died. He was this big anti fascist. He was definitely a proponent of the SVIG or Special way or Special Path theory of German historical development. But he also acknowledged that the German people were facing oblivion. Not just psychologically and culturally, but biologically. He was very anti Soviet. You know, when he cast. He said Hitler basically was almost like a shamanistic sort of figure who reflected the will of the body politic. You know, he wasn't simply leading people astray or something. That's a pretty weak argument and a milk toast argument. But like that was considered to be this kind of like extreme apologia or like some sort of like a hard right dangerous idea, I mean, which is totally insane. AJP Taylor, he's another guy who's. And he's well worth reading. He's a typical kind of German hating Englishman of the epoch. He's got this irrational hostility to all. To Germany, all these German. But his take was that, you know, Churchill brought the war in the west out upon himself and upon his country. Why on earth would the Germans want a war in the West? Which obviously they didn't. I mean the fact that that was viewed as some sort of minority take is, Is absurd too. But his. He had a unique kind of. Or he had a rather.

[Pete Canono]

He had him.

[Thomas]

He had his own kind of discreet understanding of Sonder V and that it was. There was a unique German trajectory in the modern era that became aggravated in earnest after 1848 and particularly after unification in 1879. But that, you know, Hitler and geostrategic terms acted like any other German executive would, you know. And again, he had a punitive view of the Germans as a people, but he completely rejected this idea that, you know, Hitler was this evil madman and just some kind of. Some kind of outlier. And interestingly, one of the, one of the. One of the contributors was then pretty. I think it was, I think it was I camera's name one of the. The guy in 2008 he wrote a pretty, he wrote a. He wrote a very good biography of Vladimir Putin which of course would like, you know, was like hysterically was hysterically attacked by these people who see Russians under their bed and, and think that Vladimir Putin is an evil madman for not inviting NATO to point nuclear weapons at him at the cavitation range. But I, I can't remember the guy's name.

[Pete Canono]

Was it Dr. Matthew Rafael Johnson?

[Thomas]

What's that?

[Pete Canono]

Was it Dr. Matthew Raphael?

[Thomas]

No, he was a German guy.

[Pete Canono]

Okay.

[Thomas]

And he, he was what? The historic, the historic strike in total constituted about like two dozen academics, like on the right or the left. Nolte and Habermas, like Katra Habermas were the primary kind of theorists that people associate with it. But there's a lot of people and some pretty diverse opinions for it. But this guy's name will come to me. But the, if there's something of a quorum of guys to Fritz Fisher among them, he, he had a, a functionalist viewpoint of things. And this was involved based with like neorealism, you know, if like traditional realism, real politic emphasizes anthropological and organic, you know, causes of conflict and of state behavior and human behavior at scale. You know, really from the 60s onward, it became involved, you know, talk about institutional behavior, you know, how, you know, structural phenomenon and alternatively incentives, concomitantly functionalist explanations, you know, are, you know, revealing revealed data, meaningful data about, you know, war and peace, but also, you know, political behavior at scale, you know, and of course too, that, that, that, that, that shares some common ground with, you know, some of these moderate left to aliens and things. But in other ways, you know, they objected to that too. So some interesting, there were some interesting opinions being bandied back and forth. But what. The reason it became this censorious controversy was for all the wrong and most predictable reasons, you know, it. And obviously any, any, any. Any journal truly right wing, you know, not even particularly pro national socialist, but remotely patriotic or unwilling to kind of take a knee before, you know, proverbially to, before, you know, NATO and Zionist interest in things, they were going to view the sunder of a conception as well as, you know, the, the functionalist explanations as it's basically, you know, left wing in nature and, and, and intrinsically punitive, which they were, you know, but it's also, again, you know, by the, by the mid-1980s, you know, you're talking about four decades having passed. Even if, even if the Third Reich had been this totally brutish regime and even if, even if it's furor had been, you know, the second coming of Dracula or something, it's like, well, again, you know, if you're expecting us, us being, us being the German people, you know, take a million dead in 72 hours, you know, fighting off the Ivans and you expect our land, which, you know, for the record, has been occupied now for 40 years, it's the designated nuclear battlefield of World War III. You know, see, what you want is basically to be, you know, like kind of the holy warriors of. Of what you consider civilization against communism. But then you're going to turn on and say that, you know, we're. We're evil pieces of. Like, that doesn't.

[Pete Canono]

That.

[Thomas]

That doesn't tr. You know, but it's also, I think. And Noli himself made this point, you know, as I get a lot of hate mail for a lot of reasons and a lot of which surprisingly relates to the Vietnam War. I think Americans, especially older Americans, they feel they got. They got strong emotions bound up with this. And I understand that I invoke the Vietnam War for comparative purposes. Not, Not. Not for some cynical reason, but for the reason Nolte did. If you want to understand John Daly

[John Daly]

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[Thomas]

in the ethical terms set out by the victors in World War II and by their. Their ethical metrics and by what was considered until the end of the Westphalian era to be, you know, sort of the moral consensus willing the laws and customs at war. The Vietnam War made us. It made hash with that all those things as much as the Second World War did. And the entire. The internal logic of a free fire zone is not any different than that of the mandate of. Of an einset's grouping formation. Saying that, you know, designating an area a free fire zone and saying that there are no civilians here and regardless of age, sex, overall health, everybody is a fair target because anybody who remains here after this, you know, they've been put on notice and given opportunity to be evacuated is obviously, you know, an active communist or a sympathizer with the enemy idea. And because, you know, as. As the mentioned material that is literally the what, you know, the bearer of that idea, it's got to be annihilated it being human beings. Welcome to the, welcome to warfare of the 20th century, where all wars are. Are total wars and all total wars are ideological wars. You know, so when you've got every week America dropping, you know, the body count as their victory metric, like literally measuring. Measuring whether we're winning the Cold War, where it's gone hot and mountains of corpses, we're counting, you know, when the victory metric of nuclear war is can we kill an enemy society, you know, by annihilating 80 million of its people? When you've got the Chinese, who, after 68, according to a lot of these same academics who were doing things like raking. No. Of the coals, this was, you know, kind of the, the true progressive regime that was, you know, realizing communism, they were deliberately killing off tens and tens of millions of their own people as useless eaters. Okay? You can't. It's. It's laughable to turn around then and start. Instead of spitting like Nuremberg lies or trying to declare that, you know, yes, the world is a wicked place and, and war is terrible, but, you know, those Germans, you know, they're. They're, they're just, you know, they're. They're just in league with Lucifer and, you know, we, we can never forgive them for this. So when I think it was all those things, you know. No, it doesn't. That's not to say that. I mean, obviously that's not to say that what sort of political biases, you know, gain momentum and, and, and become like consensus. Consensus reality in, in. In conceptual terms has, has any kind of bearing on. On. On reasonable things or reasonableness itself or anything like that. But, you know, we're not. We weren't talking about, you know, some sort of argument between the hoy pollo or. We weren't talking about some policy initiative that elected officials trying to convince people of through television media or something. We're talking, we were talking. This was a very. This was an argument between. This was like a controversy between, you know, like a very narrow coter of. Cotery of academics who, you know, all of whom knew better than what they were alleging those contra.

[Pete Canono]

Multi.

[Thomas]

I mean, so that's important. That's important to, to keep in mind. And I'll also say. And I actually wrote. I wrote about this and I, I wasn't jumping around a bit, but just, I mean, for clarity, too, here's. Here's what these are the four questions or the four like, controversies, according to, according to Nolte himself as well as Habermas, and according

[Pete Canono]

to.

[Thomas]

According to p. The people who populated most of these forums where these, These debates are being had between, you know, 84, 85 and like 89 it was. Were the, were, were the crimes of the Third Reich uniquely evil or were they comparable, you know, to the scaled violence of, of the Soviet Union other communist countries? Secondly, what is Sandra Vega meaningful concept at all? Okay. Was the violence of the Third Reich or crimes, if you want to abide Nuremberg logic, a reaction, you know, to, to the Soviet violence, like an equal and opposing reaction. Okay. And finally, you know, should the Germans, like as a people or as like a national group, like bear some, some, some generational burden of guilt, you know, for the supposed National Socialist crimes or, or should they be permitted, you know, to participation in some sort of, you know, cultural and national life and that really, I mean regardless, like even if one accepts the kind of. I hope we're preposterous. The, you know, the affirmation postulates this idea that this, this idea that conflicts that are global in scale can just be caused by, you know, some national group of bad actors. I mean that's, that's the way a child would think. You know, I mean that's just, it's on his face. That's just, that's just incredibly stupid. You know, I'm gonna emphasize that again and again. Like it's not even, you know, just not. That's not a serious people or irrational adults talk about historical cause and effect or, or discuss political concepts, you know, whether you know, with praxis or, or you know, matters of pure theory. Such a pure theory can exist in, in, in discussion of politics. But you know, Nolte, one of the reasons I respected him is he. Or one of the reasons I, he got my attention initially. I mean it was like pre Internet, I'm talking even before I became a lawyer, I put a lot of stock in direct testimony and discrete psychological aspects of within, you know, the mind of the key decision makers.

[Pete Canono]

And

[Thomas]

you know, no, he cited Hitler's table talk, you know, where Hitler would talk about repeatedly the rat cage torture, you know, and saying in the context of, you know, this is what the communists do to people. And you know, also talking about his own fate. You know, I'm not, I'm not gonna let the communists capture me and, and subject me to the rat cage torture. Now people like Habermas said, oh this is absurd. This was, this is just Hitler suggesting that, you know, that you deal again to me that apparently, you know, according to people like Habermas existed only in Hitler's imagination. We're prone to these barbaric acts, but the Soviets actually did that. You know, people Orwell, I Assume college kids will still read. That's quite literally a plot, like a major plot point of 1984. You know, Smith sells out Julia and, and his comrades and what breaks his mind is that o' Brien threatens to rat cage him. You know, so this idea that this is something that Hitler made up or it was, you know, the, the sort of fever dreams of a madman. I mean, that's the entire point of doing things like the rat cage torture you do. You do something like that for one of two reasons. Either you're a disgusting sadist who likes to torture people, or you're devising things that are so terrifying to the human being kind of universally, regardless of, you know, sex or background or national or like ethnic psychology. Like you divide things that are so horrible to human beings that, you know, people instinctively will, will kind of bend to your will. And obviously you publicize those things to terrify people at scale. Like that was the whole point, you know, and it's, it's this idea that, you know, and Robert Conquest, who I'm relying a lot upon for my own writing on this topic. You know, the Soviet Union had death camps decades before shot was fired in World War II. You know, they, they annihilated 10 million of their own people as of September 3, 1939. I mean, like what you can't get away from this. And the idea that, oh well, Hitler couldn't have known about that, that's nonsense. You know, in my own substack

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[Thomas]

wrote about Max von Schubner Richter.

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[Thomas]

He fell at. At the Munich pooch. Like he, he'd actually. When the National Socialist charged the police cordon, he'd locked arms of the Hitler and he got shot and he died instantly. Like his heart got pierced. And when Richter fell, he had actually dislocated Hitler's shoulder. And Hitler later said, he said Richter was the. He's like, he's the only man we couldn't afford to lose at. At Munich. You know, he's like our party. The party like never recovered. Now I wrote a whole series on Richter, because here's where his background was. He was a Baltic German like Rosenberg, okay? And the Baltic Germans were instrumental in kind of shaping the early, like the post Drexler party. The post Drexler, but pre, but pre electoral path. National Socialist party, okay, when it was still in a very revolutionary phase, but, but a phase that nonetheless was, was, was being shaped by Hitler. You know, doctrinally he was a free corp veteran who you know, been fighting, he been fighting the communists in, in the Baltic. But he also, he was a lesser aristocrat of some renowned. He was in Turkey when the Armenian, when the Armenian genocide jumped off. And the way the world came to know of it was Richter was issuing these dispatches back to Berlin from the German diplomatic mission. And the Kaiser's representative finally said, you got to stop doing this. You know, we need, we need to, we need to try and get these people, these people being the Turks, like back in the war and whatever, whatever government succeeds assault in it. We've got to have good offices with them. But. So Richter went to the Red Cross and he, he started publicizing what he was seeing to anybody who would listen. And he was directly responsible for having to rescue a lot of vulnerable persons among this population of targeted people, you know, like women, elderly, little children. So the Nationals party, supposedly the only reason it convened, the only reason it constituted itself, the only reason guys like Richter collected with Hitler was because they were racist who wanted to devise a criminal conspiracy to murder Jews. But, but Richter, like, he spent his spare time like worrying about ethnic cleansing. I mean, like, what was he doing? Just for show? Like, did you just really, really like Turkish people? Like, I don't. I mean this doesn't track. Like none of this tracks, you know, and that's what's important, okay, is that's what the big lie is. You know, the big lie is about stuff like sunder big. It's about stuff like you know, making Adolf Hitler some sort of standin for Lucifer. And it's like secular religion is this idea that the Germans, unlike every, you know, exclusive to themselves, unlike everybody else on this planet, where it's obsessed with race and aritually decided Jews are a bad race, like that's what matters. Instrumentalities of homicide don't matter. Like arguing about like did 4 million people die or 8 million people die. That's. I mean that's, that's literally demented. It's also, you know, I mean, besides, even if that is, even if that is something that people, I mean people can research whatever they want But I mean, if that is kind of like your. Your emphasis, you should be reading people like conquest. You should be reading about the logic of the free fire zone in the Vietnam conflict. You should be reading about, you know, the Soviet death camp system, you know, and like Nolte himself said, if you accept, if you accept everything alleged by court history in total, including this idea of, you know, homicidal gas chambers, the Soviet Union literally did everything that the Third Reich allegedly did, you know, a decade beforehand. The possible exception of utilizing nerve gas at scale, which I hardly think matters. If I'm not saying it doesn't matter if people die, I'm saying, you know, that what we're talking about, you know, the preferred instrumentality of. Of. Of murderous scale, you know, we're not talking about something of grand like substantive import, you know. So a lot of people are. A lot of people are just kind of like tripping over themselves not just by allowing the opposition to define the parameters of discourse, but also to define like, what is important, you know, so it's like, you know, John Daly here,

[John Daly]

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[Thomas]

court historians and, and people sympathetic to Zionism or whatever, or people who have some kind of like peculiar fixation with this idea that third Reich is the epitome of evil. They don't get to decide, you know, what is what, what the terms of discourse are. They don't get to decide what the parameters are of. Of research. They don't get to decide, you know, what needs to be proved or rebutted, you know, as if they're, you know, like, like the judge in. In a. In a case at bar or something, you know, dictating the what against, you know, what the. What their respective burdens are and things like that, that the. And it's also, I mean, what. At the end of the day it, you know, and no one can made this point too at the end of the day, like a past becomes the past at some point, you know, I mean, I. This is all I do is. Is study political theory and, you know, the historical process and things. And it is. You know, it's. I mean, I'm the last person obviously would say, like, oh, you know, it's studying the struggle, process doesn't matter. But this idea that even if. Even if truly horrible things occur, that they can't be justified by any exigency or by any appeal to anything other than, you know, the. The kind of universal depravity of man. I mean, it's kind of a. So what. I mean, we. We don't. We don't spend. We don't spend decades or centuries wringing our hands because we inherited some guilt because people are bad, you know, Or. Or our ancestors are bad. That's just not. That's not the way we do things in the West. Among other things, you know. I mean, yeah, obviously an unrepentant sinner is. There's a few things kind of more obtuse and ugly than that. But, you know, one sin isn't greater than another sin or lesser than another. You know, it's just not. That's a bizarre way to look at the world. As if, you know, some sins are worse than others. Some historical events are criminal offenses. Others are just, you know, spontaneous occurrences. And certain ones, you inherit a kind of liability for them that you have to atone for symbolically or ritually, like this. That's. That's really, really, really strange conceptually, you know, And I put it. I put that to people, too. Like, even if. Even if. Even if these people like Habermas or these people like kind of poor little unfortunate Debbie Lipstadt who's. He's incredibly stupid. I mean, Hobb Russell isn't stupid. But, I mean, she is. But even if everything she said was true, I mean, it'd be kind of a big. So what, you know, I mean, am I. I supposed to go jump off a building because my ancestors did bad things? Should I. Should I wear a hair shirt when I go to sleep or something? Or should I. Should I get, like, half of my money as a teeth to, like, the. The local synagogue? Like, I don't. What exactly do people want? You know? Like, I'm not. I'm not just being obtuse. I could actually put this to people. And they look at me like I'm an alien. But, I mean, maybe I am. I'm pretty weird, but I don't.

[Pete Canono]

I mean, they pretty much tell you what they want. They want you not to just say that, you know, what happened was bad. And that it was the worst thing that ever happened. But they want you to go out of your way to say the evil that was done to them was unique above what every other evil ever done in history was.

[Thomas]

No, legit. But then that plus $5 will get you a coffee at Starbucks. You know, I mean, it's just, it just doesn't, I mean you can give in simpletons of things like that and, but where the rubber meets the road, I mean that doesn't really, that doesn't really matter even in the present. I mean, that's the point I make. The people who, who go nuts about Israel and stuff, it's like, even if you're, even if you're someone impassioned Zionist or, or some, somebody with a slave mentality who's like not Jewish but just decided like take on those prejudices for some unconscionable reason, I mean, it's like, okay, like, you know, the, the Palestinians, Hezbollah, your ops aren't, they're not all gonna like put down their clashing across and be like, you know what, you're right. You're the special victims of history. I'm a terrible person. I'm gonna stop now. You can convince like a, a billion rubes in, you know, the rest of the world that you're right. That's great that being right doesn't win wars.

[Pete Canono]

Yeah, you're gonna, it's easy to get people who live in a first world country who, you know, can have food, you can have food delivered to them to be, to adopt these things because, you know, they don't really have anything bad going on in their life. But when you have people in other countries who have, in Arab countries who have real problems, they're like, well, you,

[Thomas]

well, it's just a weird. Yeah, I mean it's, it's somewhat, it's somewhat. Well, people act like it's nuts that, you know, I'm like, I'm around a lot of like non white people. I mean it's because like where I live obviously, but like some of these guys I like record with and stuff and, and I'm happy they like let me record with them, you know, because they have interesting stuff to say. And like, if people are interesting, you know, I, I, I, I feel lucky if they let me record what they got to say. But there's like all these weirdos who send me hate mail and even some who aren't so much haters, but they're just like, you know, how are those people possibly let you in their house I'm like, why would they care what I'm into? Like, that's not the way normal people think. It's like, you think that way because you're a weirdo. It's like if you like, if you'd like, if you think that, like, black people, like, look at some guy like, oh, that guy's got a Nazi shirt on. I can't let him in my house. Like, no one thinks that way with total weirdos, you know, or like, made like. Like suburbanite people who live through their television or something. Like, I don't even know. It's like, no one thinks that way, man. Like, in the real world, you know, it. I guess that's like my point, you know, it's like you can. The what the. And in my. That's the point I always made to people too. Like, part of the evens and Nolte. It's that. What. It's not what. The way you judge these things. The way you judge kind of like what's shaping the conceptual horizon. It's not what. It's not what Ben Shapiro is saying or tweeting out. It's not what MSNBC is saying. It's not. It's not like how things are being presented in Hollywood movies, you know, it's like a matter of zeitgeist and once. And once things, like, lose their kind of evocative power and like, lose their, like, monumental power, like, like they're done. It can't be like, recaptured, you know? And like, nobody, like, no serious historian would take something like Schindler's List like, seriously today, you know, like. And that. That. That's not going to change. It's not coming back, you know, and nobody's people like people basically, unless you're. Unless you're one of these kind of like weird zip codes where. Where people attend some. Some crazy like, like non denom church that like, worships Israel or unless you're, you know, like in Skokie, Illinois, like, like, basically, like, nobody likes Israel. And like, that's not going to change. That's not going back the way it was, you know, 20 years ago, you know, like, this can't. The like, zeitgeist when the proceeding. The sort of conceptual structure, like psychological constitution is gone. Like, it's gone, you know, and everything's different now. I mean, that's. That's why I always emphasize the people who say that things are so terrible today that it's. It's practically like mainstream to be somewhat right wing, you know, like that. That's a sea change from 30 years ago that was like unthinkable 30 years ago, you know, and, and things can, things are never going to go back to the way they were, you know. And that's the way to look at it. It's not, it's not, it's not what people who have access to remains of the bully pulpit are like shouting out kind of into the, into the abyss or whatever just to hear the. Their own echoes. I don't know.

[Pete Canono]

But the, the book you were trying to think of earlier was that Putin and the Rise of Russia by Michael Sturmer.

[Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's well worth reading. And it's, it's actually like a very balanced biography. It's not some like Putin hag hagiography. I don't understand how people like speaking of bizarre sort of conceits like the sighting you randomly hate. Vladimir Putin is incredibly strange, especially when you consider he's like a moderate liberal, if anything like a typical cop, which is what he was. He's like obsessed with you know, kind of the appearance of abiding the rules based order. But it's, it's actually a really interesting book. And yeah, that Mueller, Miller was he, he wasn't a leading light like Nolte, but he's a guy who during the historical strife he was, he was a younger academic. He had interesting things to say that. Oh, a book. RHS Stoffely who wrote that book, that biography of Hitler that I think is so great. Hitler Beyond Evil and Tyranny. He wrote this book with this retired Vermont general officer called NATO under Attack. It was published in 1984 and it got a lot of attention from war college types like the sub. The subtitle was.

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[Thomas]

How NATO can win in Europe without nuclear weapons. And if you're, if you're a late Cold War geek like I am who I find a reemergence of conventional force structures as, as a major. This positive variable to be fascinating just because it's cool. But this relates very much on what we're talking about and how as the time ended in the final phase of the Cold War really heated up, you know, this sort of punitive view of the Vermont and of the Germans as a people just could no longer be abided. That's, I mean, it's just like a fascinating kind of like period piece about what war planner types were thinking. And Sto is a, was a really freaking smart guy who, who grasped political and historical, like he grasped the philosophy of history and, and political theory in a way most like military types don't. But he, he also was a, a very brilliant, like, you know, military writer. But. Yeah, that's. I'm gonna ask to wrap in a minute.

[Pete Canono]

Yeah. You wanna, you want to end it and get plugs and get out of here?

[Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. And I'll, in part three, I'll, I'll take up. I know people because they've been asking me, they've been asking me what, if any relationship there is between like, Nolte and like, some of these, some of these guys I mentioned, like David Irving, like Fred Leuchter, like, like even Zundo, who. People think I'm, I'm too punitive on what. That's. We'll get into the kind of revisionism generally and like Nolte's sort of like place in it in the third episode. Yeah, you can, you can always find me on Twitter or not always. I get, I mean, I think, I think they've gotten tired of like, nuking me there. It's a real capital REL_ number 7 HMES777. My sub stack has been popping a lot lately. I really appreciate that people are very generous and in signing up and throwing me a lot of love, not just in the form of like, subscriptions and donations, but, you know, sending me encouraging emails and stuff. And I actually really do appreciate that. I mean, I'm not trying to sound like some sentimental slob, but, you know, I, I, I, I feel very moved to get that kind of love from people. You can always find my content at my website. It's number7HMAS 777 dot com. I'm on t gram. I'm on Instagram. You know, I'm, I'm here there seeking each. I'll find.

[Pete Canono]

All right, so part three. Thank you very much, Thomas. I want to welcome everyone back to the Peno show. Thomas is here again. And we're going to get into part three of Thomas's Talk about Ernst Nolte. How you doing, Thomas?

[Thomas]

I'm doing Very well. Thanks for hosting me.

[Pete Canono]

Of course.

[Thomas]

What I want to get into a bit today, I want to address some things that people have been asking over email and things which is great. There's been a tremendous amount of feedback on this series and I was pleasantly surprised by that. It's, it's something of a heady topic. Like, I'm not suggesting that like people aren't smart enough to comprehended. It's just that frankly, not like you know, deep diving into, into political philosophy and sort of the history of ideas in a very abstract capacity. That's, that's not something that you know, a great number of people are taken in by and I totally understand that. But it's essential to understanding the development of, of, of concrete political realities in the 20th century. And if you want to understand the pro, our present and it's, it's, it's nuances therein, you've, you've got, you've got to understand these things as legacy structures and legacy phenomenon of the 20th century. Not just because as we've talked about there's been a basic stagnation in America and you know, the, the, the former West. Even if that were not the case, even, even if there was a, an authentic dynamism to American government and even if there had been, you know, a truly forward looking and, and, and far reaching and, and workable sort of path forward in policy terms after the, the collapsing organic border, you know, I'm thinking in terms of what you know, Mr. Nixon wrote about in his final years and as well as you know, kind of the Bush Baker model. Like I'm not suggesting people should look at that as you know, some ideal model or something, but there was like a dynamism to it and it was relevant to you know, post Cold War realities. You know, even if there was, even if there was something like that extant, you know, in terms of intellectual occurrence as well as political will and conceptual ambition, this would still be informed almost entirely by you know, 20th century structures phenomenon, relationships like different as things are today. And much as I agree with people including Mr. Musk who say that historical time is speeding up owing to technology, that is 100% true. So today I want to get into some of these things and what's key to understanding about NY and German idealism generally. You know, people especially Anglophone types who have, are marinated with a certain disdain for continental philosophy. Okay then it's just a fact there's a tendency to dismiss these things as well. That's so much sophistry. You Know, that's, that, that's just, you know, a not particularly lucid interpretation of political realities. You know, that extrapolates the musings of, of closer intellectuals to populations at scale. That's the wrong way to look at it. Even if you don't accept the Poshowitz ontological and otherwise, of Hagel, of, of Nolty, of, of Heidegger, even if this is nothing more than a conceptual horizon that became a kind of self fulfilling prophecy in terms of how it shaped the European political mind, that's nonetheless a causal variable that is, is, is inarguably just positive of outcomes. Okay, I take it a step further, obviously. I mean, I think it's clear to everybody that, you know, I, I'm very much a Hegelian. I think Ernoli was the most profound historical thinker and writer of the 20th century. But the way I understand German idealism is it, it's people who deal in studies of consciousness and things will be familiar with the anthropic principle. This is extraordinarily complicated, okay, on like its own terms. But we can't talk about political realities without talking about events within, within the human mind, okay? It's not like there's some, it's not like there's some actual political reality remote from human psychology that is existing outside of our purview or something, okay? We're not, we're not talking about astronomical phenomenon. We're not talking about, you know, events of, of, of a natural, scientific, you know, nature obviously, you know, so that renders that, that, that, that renders the study of, of, of political philosophy unique, okay? Because you can't, you, you can't do away with, with mind as a prime move on, okay? Even if you reject the postulates of somebody like Noldi and I come back this again and again, all right? But it's also to understand the entirety of the war. You know, this zeitgeist was the cause of the war, okay? And there was obviously like concrete variables, you know, relating to things like war technology and capabilities. They're in that upset balances of power that had basically been constant since 1648 or so. There's economic realities that, you know, affected and impacted the ability to manage populations at scale that in turn, you know, were decisive as regards, you know, the capacity to mobilize those aforementioned populations, which in turn, you know.

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[Pete Canono]

had

[Thomas]

a tremendous impact on the perception of states engaged in a hard power competition. That goes without saying. But all of these things at key points of decision, as well as in terms of broad conceptual horizon of what the end game of these political ambitions were, can only be understood in terms of Zeitgeist.

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[Thomas]

the way that practical transcendence was changing the way humans live their lives and identify themselves and quite literally, how they lived and died. Nobody was more insinuated into that modality of thought than Adolf Hitler. Okay, I'm gonna begin a series on this book in the next week. This is an incredibly ballsy book, and it was kind of underneath the radar. It's basically a breakdown of Hitler's second book, the Secret Book. And what Sims emphasizes is that Hitler very well understood the situation geostrategically as well as historically. And I've always made the point before that Hitler's primary op was Franklin Roosevelt, not Stalin. Sims hammers that point home. Absolutely. Okay? And in terms of Germany's mobilization paradigm, in terms of the technologies Hitler emphasized, in terms of his entire timetable, tactical and strategic, from September 1939 until December 1941, was oriented towards facilitating Germany's ability to defend against a massive assault by the United States. That can't be. That can't be overemphasized. Anybody who denies it is not in the game. However, what was happening to European peoples and what was threatening to render the culture extinct was what was, was, was, was. Was purely conceptual. Okay? And it. It's the Sver punk of that devastating idea or psychological tendency was, was Bolshevism. You know, Bolshevism wasn't just a way of ordering labor. You know, it wasn't just a matter of depriving people of. Of certain freedoms, you know, that they become habituated to do. It wasn't just a question of breaking down traditional modalities of. Of order, you know, whether we're talking about, you know, within the family unit or, you know, in terms of how, you know, the races or ethnic populations relate to one another or the way, you know, the sexes, you know, kind of relate to one another in. As regards, you know, duties and responsibilities and things. In. In ontological terms. It was. It was sharing the bases of. Of. Of. Of identity. And when you remove people from any identitarian polestars, when you literally rip them out of history, they're no longer living as human beings in basic terms, okay? And despite what people claim, and Sims emphasizes this too, Hitler did not claim that Europeans were some master race. Quite the contrary. Hitler said Germany's racial stock has precipitously declined since the thirty Years War. He looked at that as the shattering event, okay, that Germany never really recovered from. He said that the best European stock was in England. And their leadership cast basically was able to dominate a good portion of the planet as well as preside over a divided society that had no kind of like, organic, like, national underpinning, you know, and they managed to do this with like, a combination of. Of tremendous foresight, you know, un. Unrestrained ruthlessness and, you know, an ability to sort of manipulate subjugated cultures in a way that incentivized, you know, cooperation, but also quite literally, you know, rendering like, the best that those cultures could provide to this, you know, imperial.

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[Thomas]

Okay? Hitler further said that the best European stock had immigrated to America. You know, so Hitler's like, we're basically left with like this kind of like, shattered remnant of what's. What was potentially, you know, like a. Like. Like a master race, okay? And thus it was all the more critical. Germany would like, literally die from this onslaught of. Of. Of suicidal zeit, for lack of a better way to characterize it. Okay? Now this wasn't just like. Hitler actually believed this, okay? This wasn't. I mean, this wasn't just, you know, stuff fit for the.

[Pete Canono]

The.

[Thomas]

The bully pulpit or, you know, before that. Angela Solos had anything approaching a bully pulpit. This wasn't just, you know, these weren't just like scare concepts or. Or some kind of nightmare scenario to. To bring ignorant people the polls out of fear or something like that. The degree to which communism in practice, like literally the practice of communism, Marcus Leninism, it can only. It can only exist, let alone endure and perpetuate itself if it annihilates all competing conceptual horizons, you've got to deprive people of the ability to conceptualize some alternative ontology. Okay? There's no other ideology like that. The phone is misplaced. When we talked about an earlier episode, this kind of simpleton's paradigm that's promoted during the Cold War of, oh, there's totalitarianism and then there's democracy. Something like Franco Spain had nothing in common with the Soviet Union. A revolutionary communism generally. Nor, did, you know, some. Some tinpot dictatorship in the Third World. Regimes like that forcing compliance or enforcing superficial compliance, you know, by. By use of the penal apparatus or, or some. Or some kind of, you know, use of. Of military force as an extrajudicial means of. Of punishing people in, you know, as a spectacle. That communism's not interested in that for its own terms. One of the things I, I think in some ways is a very overrated writer. But Orwell captured the true essence of. Of. Of Marx's Leninism in 1984. And that's exactly what the book's about. It's not about totalitarianism or fascism or government generally. It is about Marxist Leninism. When o' Brien says, I need you to love Big Brother, I, I don't. It's, you know, I, I'm not interested in superficial compliance. I'm not interested in forcing you to do things, you know, in fact, quite the contrary, you know, I. I need you to not be able to conceive of anything other than prostrating yourself and kind of like odd and terrified reverence of this megalithic state, you know, and not only do you not, you know, the reason why you don't resist it isn't out of terror. It's because you can't even conceptualize resisting it. It's like resisting God. Okay? And probably the best example of this was in Romania immediately after the war. There's. I can't remember his name now, but there was a Romanian Orthodox priest who. When somebody's made a saint, are they beatified? Is that the term? Okay, I believe it was beatified, yeah. Yeah, for his resistance, the communist. But there was this. What came to be known as the Batesti. And if I'm butchering that pronunciation again, forgive me, the pati. Prison experiments. Okay, Patsy. Prison. Now, Romania is a fascinating example because was. Was. Was a. He was viewed kind of in the west as this bizarre eccentric. Obviously, you know, him and his wife were. Were similarly executed on. On live television. And that was shocking. I think we've talked about before, you know, as a Teenager seeing that on this, this was long before live leak and anything like three guys, one hammer or any of this horrible stuff that you can, anybody can see on the Internet. And, but I mean, obviously it was the only violent overthrow of a, of, of an east block regime. But you know, for all practical purposes, Romania had seceded from Warsaw Pact. You know, Chescu himself, he negotiated with Kennedy to remove Romania from the SIOP target list and event a nuclear war. But in terms of, despite kind of like seceding entirely from veld politic, Romania kind of perfected Marcus Leninism as regards this internal situation. I mean, purists will say, well it was a personality cult, but that's not what I'm talking about. Most of the detainees at Pesti prison were, were, were men who served in the Iron Guard. You know, they were, they were,

[John Daly]

you

[Thomas]

know, o front veterans who, you know, were company level officers or higher. They were priests who hadn't done anything wrong, I mean even of a, you know, political nature. And they were psychologically tortured. According to this phased paradigm, the first phase would involve this kind of like endless interrogation over days and weeks

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[Thomas]

torture liberally applied under the auspices of revealing intimate details. This was called external unmasking. But the interrogators, I mean they obviously that any, any kind of, anything relating to somebody's intimate moral or sexual behavior, they'd find that valuable to exploit against them. But this wasn't, this wasn't the purpose of, of external unmasking. They'd force people to do things like, you know, they'd say, you know, it's coming to our attention that, you know, like your father was actually like, like a traitor, you know, and, or like, you know, it's, it's, you were actually born a bastard, you know, and we, we've, we've discovered this or like, you know, your, your sister was a prostitute, you know, and, and she had many men, you know, and we, we, we, we've talked to men who, who, you know, who visited her and, and in relations with her for money and they'd insist on this over and over and over and over again. And you know, they torture people into signing confessions and stuff. That seems apparently meaningless from a political perspective. But victims subsequently attested that you start losing touch with reality under these conditions and you start wondering, you know, like, is that actually true? You know what I mean? I, I'm sure people will say like, well, that would never happen to me. Very, very strange things happen when people are incarcerated. And add to that literal torture, it

[Pete Canono]

doesn't even have to be incarceration. I've witnessed people in my own life who went to group therapy and started, started adopting stories that they heard other people tell as their own.

[Thomas]

And they probably, they believe it.

[Pete Canono]

Yeah, and 100% believe it. It's the human mind is. I don't know what that is. It's hard for me to understand that, but I've seen it.

[Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, you're a worldly guy and I mean, obviously, I mean, you see, frankly, you spend a fair amount of time with matters of the human psyche because it relates to, you know, what are our mutual emphases and things. But yeah, it, you know, the second, the second phase was called like internal unmasking. Now this, what, this was us, at least nominally, it was the torturer, sl interrogator. He'd demand to know what guards or trustees or other interrogators had been lenient with the subject. So basically this was, you know, and say like, you know, basically like, you know, I. No, in this perverse way, you know, it's, it's a way of trying to, trying to literally create like Stockholm syndrome.

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[Thomas]

Or to generate those sorts of misplaced sympathies in the mind of the victim, you know, so it came to the, the, you know, the victim when in some cases begin to look at his torture as truly benevolent. You know, because even if it was totally a, a charade, you know, the fact that he would disclose, you know, persons who'd shown him leniency and then he'd be rewarded with, you know, maybe if he'd been subjected to a starvation diet, he'd be rewarded with food or something or even just, you know, the appearance of, of, of affection. Like, perverse as it sounds, you know, people do need affection or, or approval in some basic sense. And somebody who's. Somebody who's been utterly destroyed, whose internal constitution has been destroyed by a deliberate and purposeful, you know, regime of torture, even, even, even the approval of, of their torturer, you know, who's cast himself in, in some kind of fatherly role. You know, you see, you see the police do this too. Anyone's been subject to police interrogation. Obviously it's not nearly this extreme, okay? But that's, that's basically what good cop, bad cop is and some very dumbed down and obviously much less insidious and, and, and literally figuratively violent sense. It's the, the third stage was in the third phase, it was this, it was this, it was this kind of public humiliation ritual. If the person was, you know, if they were, if they were a priest or a, or a, a lay person in the orthodox Church, you know, the interrogator would do something like, you know, weighing out a crucifix and like demanding the urinate on it. You know, if it was a political partisan or like a former like Vermont officer or Iron Guard revolutionary, you know, they might like force him to like, like drink urine or like literally like lick the boots of his interrogator or something or like, you know, claim to have engaged in, in like disgusting sexual acts or something, you know, in this, like you. Michael Jones, not specifically about this in this context, but you know, he's talked about how part of the subtext of the kind of like normalization of pornography is the kind of like assault the intimate moral core of the person, you know, and, and, and, and, and rip away any, any kind of private, in any kind of truly like private boundaries they have. You know, and that, that's a real thing too, you know, but this was, you know, these people were, people were permanently and profoundly damaged by this. I mean, beyond the obvious. I mean like, you don't. The things people think they take for granted, they, they no longer can. Like they're not, they're not capable of it. I'm not talking about, I'm not talking about like trust in, in authority in, in some basic way. I mean, like they're not fully human anymore. There's no fault of their own, obviously. But it. This guy named Robert Graves is, you know, an English man of letters, type of, you know, like a great war veteran. His memoir was called Goodbye to All that. Robert Conquest cited him in for comparative purposes in his, in his book on communist mega side. Graves was talking about the experience at the front, okay, during World War I. And he said that, he said this. Grave said that like the squalor and danger of the front lines being under constant bombardment, you know, like living in filth. He said that like young officers. He said if they said after, after several weeks they begin to deteriorate a little, he's like after six months, he's like, most men were basically all right, but they were starting to show cracks. Okay, is that after nine or 10 months, these guys became a drag on FELLOW Officers and NCOs, you know, like they were no longer thinking clearly. You know, they.

[Pete Canono]

They.

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[John Daly]

They.

[Thomas]

They. They become desocialized owing to constant anxiety. You know, he'd say after a year or 15 months of continuous service,

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[Thomas]

said even like the most robust and healthy junior officer would basically be useless. You know, he was no longer fit for command. You know, at best, you know, owing to his experience and whatnot. You know, if he still had the nerve and the gumption for direct action, you know, he might be able to be utilized in like, the equivalent of stormtroop role, but as in a command role. Not. Not even close, he said. The real tragedy, though, he said guys over the age about 30 or 35 and especially over 40, he said that the. These guys had less resistance, you know, and in his estimation, it's because they had, you know, decades of normal life to compare their current situation to. He said officers over 40, he said at the six months mark, almost unfailingly became, you know, obvious alcoholics. You know, they. They'd only be able to, you know, assuming they've survived multiple assault operations, they could only. They could only function if they were totally drunk. He said that they started seeming, you know, complete. Like. He said they started seeming literally,

[Pete Canono]

you

[Thomas]

know, like in a state of shock at all times, you know. He said some of them lost their ability to communicate in basic terms, like their ability to. Their command of language had left them, you know. And conquest says that something that developed in Soviet society, especially after about 1936-38, about 1936, 1938 onward, until about 1957. He said it was something. He said it was something completely comparable, particularly guys who were in roles that were somewhat coveted, where they were in contact with commissars at all times and responsible for their people, but they weren't protected by, you know, the largest or the patronage of Party men. Like a good example would be, you know, like a doctor at a hospital, you know, who, like, like a surgeon who's responsible for, you know, more junior doctors and nurses obviously, or like a professor of geology, you know, or like a guy who worked at one of the design bureaus, you know, like overseeing other engineers. You know, he'd be under constant pressure of the commissars, you know, he, and so his whole family would constantly be under surveillance. He'd be subjected to things like, you know, when people he worked closely with or taken away and either executed summarily or sentenced to, sentenced to the, the death camp system. He'd be ordered, he'd be directed to sign a statement saying that he fully approved of these measures against people who were engaged in counter revolutionary activities, regardless of his personal feelings about them. And like over time this just brought people down, you know, and the workers and pet. The workers and peasants who supposedly the Soviet state was directly, was, was, was oriented towards, you know, like elevating, you know, these people, a huge amount of them. We'll get into some of these figures in a minute. Had cycled through the forced labor system and they, and they began acting, they, they began behaving like convicts, you know, in all, in all the pathological ways that, you know, people who are in and out of the prison system do, you know. And even if they didn't have, you know, pathologies going in, despite being branded as criminals, they certainly had them when they were released. And that's what, I mean, that's what's unique about Sovietism and that's what's unique about communism, you know, and the people who, I mean it be easy for, it's, it's easy for people to see like, oh, well, that's their own fault, you know, why weren't there cadres of people who, who were, who were cultivating resistance to this, to this, this regime. They were all dead. They were slaughtered. The Soviets slaughtered 10 million people by the time by, by, you know, before a shot was fired in the Second World War, you know, and that's no point that people were capable of, of harboring a conceptual vista of some alternative system. They, they, they were, they were killed categorically regardless of age, sex, overall health, national origin. Because they were the, they were the standard. If, even if they weren't the standard bearers of the enemy idea, you know, they, they, they weren't malleable in the way that they needed to be. You know, the Khir Rouge actually perfected this, that's what year Zero is, you know, left revisionists who, like Sartre, who actually understood Marx's Leninism, you know, they were constantly trying to extricate the commuters experience from revolutionary communism as like a postulate into itself. This is some bizarre outlier. This is an example of oriental barbarism. You know, this has nothing to do with, with, with, with rational state behavior. You know, there's nothing we can extrapolate from that. He knew that that was not true. Okay. Aside from the kind of atavistic mythologies that you know, the Khmer Rouge threw in to kind of woo the, the peasantry towards their perspective and you know, and whatever like racial mythologies that were emphasized when they were fighting the Vietnamese, like that notwithstanding, Pol Pot was actually a very learned man. And what he, aside from the fact that, you know, Cambodia Democratic Campuchea as it was so dubbed, was a, was a backwater that was devoid of the prerequisite industry to facilitate, you know, the realization of true communism in, in political terms. He was absolutely a pure communist and that's what's required in order to facilitate its realization. It's not an outlier in the least. And people who are honest, like orthodox Marxists who remained in, you know, Moscow adjacent after the, after you know, the 1960 schism, they, it's subtle but it's there. Like they acknowledge that. I find this fascinating but not for the reason some people might think. No, not merely so I can wave it around to some, you know, gotcha like I, obviously it's a grotesque people think that way, but it's, it's entirely consistent with the overall paradigm. It would be dishonest for anyone who describes that perspective to claim otherwise. But you know, the end result as it know these point two when you're talking about these monumental ideas, you know, there, you can't just look at them as historical contingencies. You know, you've got to look at them as not just as, as, as, as causal, as ultimate causal variables in and of themselves, but as phenomena that if that, but phenomena that endure until their full realization or until they are annihilated because the, the, because the bearers of the idea are annihilated dimension material of it. The purpose of communism is to realize communism. It's not just to alleviate tensions inherent to, you know, opposing classes amidst historical heel. It's not just a way to, you know, kind of placate a, a radicalized proletariat, you know, in the short term and until, you know, some sort of new structure that has more equitable outcomes can be realized. Like the point of it quite literally is it's. It's self contained realization. And the end result of the communist enterprise is. Is the eradication of culture. And that was the great horror in the minds of all who opposed it. And you know, like I said, one of the only meaningful things in absolute terms you can take from mein Tomf is when Hitler says that a bolshevised planet is a planet without culture, where all men.

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[Thomas]

America Social Casino, you know, live basically as. Basically as animals with the power of speech, you know. And the. The earth is. The. The earth is. Is. Is basically this, you know, this ball of mud like spinning through the void with no. With no. With no higher life. You know, everything you associate with culture from the comparatively prosaic, the most profound no longer exists. You know, it's. It's the world as labor. You know, there is no past, there's no future. There's only the present and you know, the realization of work quotas or you know, the homogenization of life such that it's rendered indistinguishable. But for, you know, geographic location, which anymore has no meaning other than, you know, the signature on a map. And that much as people might have misanthropic fantasies about Earth without people, I think that was actually like some corny show like decades ago. It was like. It was like Earth without people or like the world without man. And it was. I think it was on Discovery or something like. Forgive the tangent. And it was, you know, there was these like CGI rendered landscapes where you know, like skyscrapers are all overgrown and. And just like animals or have free reign and there's no more man to, you know, corrupt like the. The pure sanity in nature or something. But that, you know, people have this idea that somehow like without. Like the. Without. Without the human mind to perceive things, these things might. May well it's not. Not exist. You know, I Mean, it should go without saying, but it's. I guess it's like the way people like imagine like what their own funeral would look like. As if they'd have some kind of, some kind of vantage point or something, you know, in, in, in, in, in the terms you would, you know, as in, in, you know, in. As a living human with, you know, optic nerves and things.

[Pete Canono]

But let me, you, you said that the purpose of communism is its realization. What's the purpose of National Socialism?

[Thomas]

The posterity of the, of the Volk. And more immediately, that's what I'm going to get into in this pod series. I'm going to do the regeneration of the European form of life to meet the challenges of the 21st century, you know, to render its mentioned material competitive, at least able to survive onslaught by what Hitler identified as, you know, kind of like the, the nascent Anglo Sax and hegemony or hegemon Heller accurately. That's another thing about, about the Sims book that I think needs to be emphasized. Hitler was incredibly, he, he, he knew exactly what was underway in terms of the strategic historical situation. In the second book he makes the point that America contains about fully 50% of the world's like actual like capital and resources. You know, he says that once fully mobilized, America will be unstoppable. He said it'll be unlike any hegemon the world's ever seen. And he said that, you know, unless, unless some sort of total regeneration occurs in Europe. He wasn't talking in some kind of stressorist notion of, you know, like a United States of Europe, like literally like a paling revival of the race,

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[Thomas]

know, and he had. Hitler had no use for petted nationalism, but his idea of a European superpower was very different than what people like the Strasser suggested is my point. But he said that, you know, unless this happens, assuming that, assuming Germany could fend off a Soviet assault, which at present then present being, you know, 1933, it could not. But he said even if it could, he said that Europe would basically become, you know, the battleground between the United States and the Soviet Union for world hegemony, which is exactly what happened. And he said that, you know, the danger of the Soviet Union is the danger that's always been presented by Europe, which is essentially an indefensible peninsula, you know, populated by a world minority of peoples facing without, without any, without any, you know, there's no Sahara desert in Europe. There's no sort of like natural rampart. You know, They're the, you know, the, the immediate physical threat to European civilization is the billion strong hordes of the, of the barbarian east. You know, but he said that this is, you know, the, the, the graver like absolute, like literally global threat is, is America. You know, because it's, it's a complete, because it's completely, it completely like neutralizes everything people there to partake in for granted about hard power and the capacity to marshal capital in the service of hard power. How he viewed the American people is nuanced and fascinatingly and Sims gets into this too. Despite this kind of like, like this, this ongoing kind of liberal fixation with like, oh, Hitler was a confederate and he loved slavery and hated black people. He said almost nothing about black people other than that. He said that transplanting, you know, hundreds of thousands of African slaves to the New World, he said was, he said was something that reminiscent of an artifact of a barbaric civilization. And he said it was beneath America to do that and totally unnecessary. You know, he admired the kind of northern industrial might of the Union. He said that, you know, the cream of German racial stock to the tune of 5.9 million people over a few centuries had emigrated to America. He's like, these people are the backbone of American power, you know. And he said that, you know, some of the best of, of the Anglophone leadership cast that sort of like assimilated them into their own ranks. Like he's basically saying like this is, this is a recipe for utterly like unstoppable power and like full spectrum dominance, like economic, military, cultural in every conceivable way, you know. But he said that there's like an underlying rootlessness there that's very much been co opted, you know, by a, a Jewish modernist perspective. This is different than the threat. It's different but related in terms of a consolation of, of, of of zeitgeist related factors like rit large. It's different than, you know, the Soviet threat. But it's, it's derived from the same, it is derived from the same historical crisis. Okay. And he makes the point in the second book that it's not accidental that you know, Americanism and Sovietism will like find common cause for limited purposes because they're not actually Manichean opposites. There's a, there's irreconcilable differences between them. You know, he said given conditions of parody, they destroy each other. But, but they're, they're not like mortal enemies or something, you know, in absolute terms. And, but that's, I didn't mean to go so Far like a field. But it, the what I did want to get a little bit into and for me if I'm jumping around a bit, a lot of people over, over email and whatnot, they've been asking in comparative terms about like to what degree like the Soviet Union had like a camp system. And I make the point and I'm relying on con Robert Conquest for this. The Soviets had a death camp system writ large. Its purpose was to categorically exterminate people. There were, there were hundreds of these camps purpose towards that end in the frozen, you know, tundra of what was the Soviet Far East. This is the territory, I mean for people keen to like geology and you know that like earth science and stuff. I mean this is, this is literally you know, like the Ice Age, you know, like World island, you know, this is where the, this is the, this is where the polar bear develops. This is the, this is where mammoths stalked the land, you know, until 50, 000 years ago or whatever you know, conquest called it. An empire of camps that existed from 1931 until approximately 1957. And I mean the scale of this, in 1930, mid 1930 as this, as the security apparatus was sort of consolidating and leaving behind the revolutionary phase and developing into a like, like a true kind of penal system and extermination system to categorically manipulate population outcomes in, in mortal, mortal terms. By that point the OGPU was the precursor the nkv which was the precursor to the kgb. It was constantly reconstituting itself in these days, which I believe was very purposeful to make it difficult to identify what spheres of responsibility were. And the, I mean the communists were singularly obsessed with manipulating the historical record for reasons that are obvious. I mean we've, that's what we've been talking about this past hour. But you know, this was, I mean Stalin famously literally, you know, like would redact people from the record, you know, how many photographic evidence of them. But one of the reasons why, I mean any rigorous historian real like it's if understands that if anything the, the death toll presented even by rigorous revisionist like conquest is, is understated. But superficially this kind of constant manipulation of vernacular and nomenclature provided, provided the Soviets with an alibi and, and they're, and they're historical apologists today in, in, in some sense despite the ubiquity of information that it, it has the same function. But what's inarguable is that by mid-1930 there's approximately 140,000 prisoners already in these camps run by the GPU initially, these sort of huge labor projects, the first of which was digging a canal from connecting the White Sea to the Baltic, which for perspective, this alone required well over a hundred thousand waivers. Okay. And what better way to avail

[Pete Canono]

a

[Thomas]

labor pool than, you know, to, to, to capture tens of thousands of, of able bodied men, you know, who either are categorized as, you know, political unreliables or members of ethnic groups that have been, you know, determined to be, you know, unassimilable or resistant to, you know, the, the kind of de. Ethnification of peoples. You know, you, you can brand these men criminals and then, you know, you can essentially work them to death on these, on these massive public work projects, you know, as, as slaves, literally even worse. I mean, they're expendables. You know, you don't, you don't work your slaves to death. You know, if under, you know, under ordinary conditions of a chattel slavery. But from 1930 onward, the number of people receiving some kind of custodial sentence just astronomically rose. In 1929 there was somewhere between 50 and 60,000 people who were sentenced by the OGPU. A year later, this was, there was over 200,000. But in 1931, it was 1,230,000. I mean this is, this is astronomical. Okay.

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[Thomas]

and we're talking about, you know, we're not talking about matter of decades talking on the span of a year. You know, the, the, the camp, the population in these camps, you know, labor camps and death camps, you know, increasing fivefold over, you know, a million people. There was. Within this Far eastern camp system, there's between 100 and 160 camps at any given time. This absolutely dwarfs the camp system of the Third Reich. I mean, absolutely dwarfs it. Even if you accept at face value everything alleged at Nuremberg. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's comparing an ant to an elephant. The ogpu further in 1932 absorbed 700 small penal colonies and, and jails and prisons, you know, where people have been serving sentences from anything from petty theft to homicide. These camps and prisons have formerly been run by what's called the People's Commissary of Justice. And the OGPU declared that, you know, these were being inefficiently administered. So they absorbed, you know, what amounted to the conventional, you know, prison population and began working these people to death, you know, on these public works projects. On January 1, New Year's Day, 1935, this newly unified system, according to Soviet records, there was 900,000 prisoners in it. Over 700,000 are in work camps and 240,000 are in work colonies. Now, mind you, and, and reading between the lines and Congress made this point, there was these discrete smaller units and there's no explanation for why they were so organized. Presumably that's where actual dangerous criminals were housed. But everybody else, the orang majority had done nothing at all wrong. But everything in the Soviet Union under what was called Article 58, which was this catch all penal law, absenteeism from work was a crime. Destroying Soviet property was a crime. Hooliganism, which translates approximately to like disorderly conduct. That was a crime. You know, so that's one of the reasons why I get really, really irritated when people who, some of them don't know any better, I guess even in our own circles, like talk, they refer to people as criminals. I'm like, don't. I'm like, don't, don't start doing that, okay? I mean, maybe I feel strong about this considering my own background, but you've lost your kind of groundedness when you start calling people criminals or some categorical element. Okay? But you know, for perspective, this was that, this, this, this was well known, you know, one of the things people attack Nolte and his thesis claiming like, oh, nobody knew it was underway in the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union was a nascent superpower. And this was, it was nothing like today. But film was ubiquitous. There was an international news wire. You know, it's not like Moscow was thousands of miles away from Europe. This was well known, you know, people and people, these cadres who'd fought in Bavaria, you know, and in the Baltic against the Free Corps. I mean, these people would been trained in the Soviet Union, you know, the, Furthermore, you know, by 1936, there was a, a truly international proxy conflict in Spain. You know, this, this idea that information somehow was, was quarantined, you know, didn't cross national frontiers. I mean that, that's, that's laughable. You know, it's, this was, this is common knowledge, you know, and Plus, I mean, how exactly, you know, hundreds of thousands of people over the course of the decade, millions of people were, were categorically disappearing. You think people weren't noticing that? You know, upon the Soviet assault on Poland, you know, a huge number, about a quarter million polls disappeared within months. You know, not just because, I mean, the Russians there, there was, there was ethnic hostility between the Russians and polls anyway that was arguably as severe as that between, you know, the Germans and the polls or the Poles and the Jews, or the Germans and the Jews. But, you know, you think people, people weren't noticing that, you know, the tens of thousands of polls are just disappearing? Their entire officer corps just disappeared. You know, the entire, like Warsaw clergy just disappeared. I mean, like, I mean, it's, I'm not trying to be obtuse or like, make it out like it's funny or something, you know, or reflipping rather about these kinds of human tragedies, but it's, it's so, it's like a non. Argument. It's not, it's. This is, on its face, it's, it's laughable. But the, you know, I, I emphasize this too, and I mean, again, I, I'm the first person to make the point that it's not, you know, again, like historical revisionism is not some kind of numbers game, but. Because what is in contention is the degree of attrition in comparative terms. And this really was not just the subtext, but kind of the part of the core controversy of the historical stripes. I, I want people to contemplate again the degree to which the, the Soviet camp apparatus utterly dwarfed that of the German Reich. And like Nolte said, other than other than homicidal gas chambers, the degree to which they were employed is arguable. I don't want to get into that in this series. Not because I'm afraid to, or something reverse to. We can talk about Fred Ler and Robert Farson and the entire controversy if, if people want to. But that's, but the point is, even if you accept all that at face value, every single thing that the Third Reich did was precedented by the Soviet Union, with the exception of homicidal gas chambers employed against civilian populations. So the entire kind of notion of oh, Sundervig led to this unique and intractable evil. Just look at, you know, look, look at the Third Reich. This, this regime that existed for the sole purpose of realizing a homicidal conspiracy. I mean, it's, it's laughable. I mean, it's, there's nothing Funny about it, but it's. It's preposterous rather. That's about this. I got some more stuff to say about this, but I don't want to. I. Would you be agreeable or amenable if we did a part four? But we fielded questions from subscribers and I could just kind of tie up loose ends.

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[Thomas]

I don't want to tell you your business with content. Okay, yeah, I'd appreciate that, man. And I hope this wasn't too late. Scattershot.

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Yeah.

[Thomas]

But yeah, I prefer that, man.

[Pete Canono]

Okay, yeah, we'll do that. We'll schedule that. Do your plugs and we'll end this.

[Thomas]

You can always find me on my website. It's thomas777.com number7HMAS777.com. You can find me on Twitter. It's at Real Thomas at Capital Re L._ number 7HMAS 777. I'm on Instagram. My main. My main platform is Substack. That's. You can find my long form stuff

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[Thomas]

the podcast and you can find me on YouTube. It's @Thomas TV. Also. Excuse me. Also links from my website. Also links from Substack. Seeking you shall find. I'm. I. I dropped a video sit rep today on my sub stack. Not because I love hearing myself talk, but I. I felt I owed the subscribers an explanation for kind of where we're going with things. So I. If you are a subscriber, please check that out. I. I take this very seriously and very personally.

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[Thomas]

I. I do not take for granted the. The love and support I get from all of you peoples. It's. It's tremendous.

[Pete Canono]

Okay.

[Thomas]

But that's. That's all I got.

[Pete Canono]

Same. We have some great people on our side. Next. Thomas.

[Thomas]

Yeah.

[Pete Canono]

I want to welcome everyone back to the Picanono show. Hey Thomas, how are you doing?

[Thomas]

I'm doing well. Thanks for hosting me.

[Pete Canono]

Yeah. Are we gonna finish up on Nolte today?

[Thomas]

Yeah. I wanted to talk about current events a little bit. I mean, not just for their own sake. But how they relate to. How they relate to Nolte's model of their paradigm of historicism. No, he said, and something that I think should have been more deeply controversial, not should have been in the sense, I think that what he said was, was wrong in any way. But it goes to show you that as kind of Anglophone academia has eclipsed the continent. You know, people don't really pay attention to continental philosophy and in the way that they do, you know, kind of Anglophone treatments of ethics and things, you know, both in, in concrete terms as applied to the world situation at any given moment, but also in more abstract terms, you know, postulating, you know, what is a legitimate act of state, you know, what is permissible under conditions of war, things like that. Something I think was more, at least more sweeping in terms of what was being asserted than what was postulated during the historical strike was Nolte's 1991 book. It was, it was a history of the 20th century, okay, from essentially a right Hegelian perspective. And specifically, specifically he talked about how the common nucleus of facts and historical phenomenon gave rise to three totally abnormal political cultures, and that was the Soviet Union, the Third Reich and Israel. And a lot of people in this country, not so much in Europe for reasons that should be obvious, but lots of people misunderstand what Israel is like. I'm not, I'm not saying this. I'm speaking in purely objective terms, not at all punitively. I think they view Israel like they do, like the independent state of Croatia or something, or like they view, you know, even Ukraine like some kind of. They think, oh, a bunch of, a bunch of Jewish people lived in the Middle east and decided they wanted their own state. That's not how it developed. And it's also why there's tensions between, you know, the ruling Leakud regime, Contra, you know, who. The people they call the ultra Orthodox as well as others, like Zionism isn't just this organic movement of, you know, like nationalist minded Jewish people indigenous to the Middle East. It was very much a European ideology that came out of, you know, born of sort of like the intellectual culture of, of people whose origins were in this, were in the Pale Settlement, you know, and who found their way kind of, you know, far and wide in, in European urban centers and, and, and, and intellectual corridors, you know, whether you're talking about, you know, Minsk or Berlin or, or Warsaw or Zagreb or wherever. But the whole idea was that for the Jewish people to survive, like as a race, and again, this is, you know, very much Grounded in the kind of 20th century sensibility of people's heritage being, you know, born of blood and material quantities. You know, the idea was, well, the Jewish people need to stop being this kind of, you know, they. They need to stop being this kind of nation without a country. We need a national state. You know, we need that. That.

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That.

[Thomas]

That guards, you know, Jewish racial blood at all costs. You know, it's got to. It's got to be premised on this kind of like, communitarian, you know, like. Like. Like military socialism. You know, it's got to. It's. It's got to basically inundate people. And it's got a new way of thinking, you know, that Jews aren't habituated. Do. Owing to. Owing to their kind of peculiar heritage. Not like. Like politically. I mean, you know, in their kinds of modes of life. And that's why, for example, you know, and again, I'm not. I'm not saying this punitively, like why, why. Why is. Why do people speak Hebrew? It is real. That'd be like, if people like me said, we're suddenly decided we're going to start, like, writing in Viking runes. Like, why don't they speak Aramaic?

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[Thomas]

You know, like, why, why do they speak like, Yiddish or even. Or even, you know, whatever dialect in German was common to. Was common to the Jewish ghetto. Like, why Hebrew? You know, like, it's very much. This is very much a kind of mythologized, like, view of themselves. Okay? And I'm not even saying that like, like, go ahead.

[Pete Canono]

Even a lot of scholars point to the fact that Hebrew really wasn't even spoken amongst Jews, that it was resurrected in the late 19th century. Because, you know, if you're going to have a people, you have to have a language.

[Thomas]

No, exactly. And so that was. Yeah, exactly. That's. That's exactly it. So I mean it. And. And again too, I mean, this Zionist, you know, like Heim Lisman, they. They were self conscious. It's not like they were pretending it was something else. But this, this. This kind of Revolutionary sort of, you know, like top down restructuring of the Jewish form of life. You know, that's very much a boring again of the same, of the same historical, historically driven ideological phenomena that, that gave rise to, you know, Marxist Leninism and National Socialism, you know. And that's one of the reasons Israel is anachronistic. Okay. And I don't want to go too far afield, but I'm writing some long form stuff right now about what I call the German Cold War. You know, the DDR, they pursued an independent course in a lot of ways. I mean very different than that pursued by you know, Chesky's Romania or like Kyos Yugoslavia. Like they were 110 in the Warsaw at camp and but you know, they, they were, they were, they were, they were kind of like more of a vanguard of the Stalinist perspective than even the Soviet Union was. And kind of fascinatingly and ironically, you know, as Gorbachev started implementing perestrika like the Socialist Unity Party and the DDR started banning Soviet publications that they considered to be like revisionist and not adequately orthodox in terms of the ideological line they towed. But one of the big, the DDR, like the Cubans, they pursued this aggressive revolutionary foreign policy overseas, you know, in modern Syria is very much, very much owes to East German assistance and development. Like everything from like their military doctrine to their kind of like mixed economy to you know, they're, to the kind of nomenclature that the Syrian Bath Party, which was very different than the Iraqi Bath Party, I mean that's one of the reasons why they went to war with Saddam's Iraq in 91. But they were very much in some ways in, in some critical power political ways, you know, the progeny of East Germany and the East Germans really targeted Israel. Okay. Like that's indisputable. Now of course the, if you read stuff from the era on, even some of these academic articles about you know, Cold War anti Semitism, like there were people like the Baader Meinhof faction, like they praised like the execution of the Israeli athletes at Munich, you know, like the Japanese army faction. Like they assaulted, you know, they assaulted the Israeli airport and stuff. And I can't remember his name, but one of the guys who, he wasn't the direct action operator, but he was kind of the court intellectual of,

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the badder Meinhof crew. He would openly call, he would openly call Israelis like Euden Schwein, like literally Jewish pigs. And like that was, that was like unthinkable. It'd be unthinkable to talk about like, any other, like, population that way, like in East Germany, you know, but so there's something. I mean, obviously, I mean, I. I basically accept 100%, like Yockey's paradigm about what happened in the Cold War and. And how Zionism was the. Was. Was the final catalyst to put, you know, the eastern block and. And the Israelis and arguably the Jews as a people, you know, like, on. On enemy footing. But it. But, you know, the. One of the things that's keeping Israel alive in terms of its raise on Detra, but also in practical terms, it's sort of conceptual existence. Was the Cold War one of the reasons why Israel's having the problems it is now? It's not wokism or what, what people seem to think, you know, like in. In like, these kind of commentary circles. It's not because people suddenly have developed some like, you know, quote unquote, like, liberal idea about Palestine.

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[Thomas]

I mean, there might. I mean that there might be some aspect of that, but you know, that nothing's changed in that regard. It's not like suddenly people are aware of the racial dynamic and they weren't, you know, 10, 20, 50 years ago. What happened was as. As the Soviet Union and especially the Third Reich, you know, like. Like fade into memory. And it was just, you know, and. And it's just not something that figures into people's conceptual horizon or even historically in terms of living memory, you know, like this kind of this, like this literally, like Jewish racial state, you know, talking about, invoking these kinds of. These apocalyptic kind of scenarios to rationalize why it's got to sustain this kind of bizarre and anomalous existence in the kind of globalized planet. Like that doesn't. People can't conceptualize that anymore, you know, and one of the things, you know, like we talked about one of the things that killed the Soviet Union, you know, it wasn't Just the fact that it's because, I mean like, like authoritarian and dysfunctional regimes like shamble on indefinitely or they can, I mean it happens all the time. Like what killed the Soviet Union wasn't that people didn't have freedom or that it had a basket case economy or that, you know, it, it lacked popular legitimacy in a way that, you know, could be, could, could only be remedied by you know, over reliance on, on punitive measures. I mean those things didn't help any. But at the end of the day, the class struggle paradigm as like an ontological reality. Like regardless of like the credibility of that explanation for very human political life and, and sociological existence, regardless of whether there's any merit to that or not, the punctuated disturbances of, of modernity like you know, really, really disrupted people's lives, you know, and that's one of the things that gave Marxist Leninism its momentum as well as its credibility. And when those conditions abated and people couldn't even really conceptualize of them anymore, you know, because 2/3 of the population had been born after those occurrences took place and things, you know, there's no longer a context of Sovietism, you know, it, it, it just became incoherent. And in large part that's where Israel is now, you know, and that's one of the things, that's one of the reasons why the Holocaust narrative was so essential. Because when that had this like monumental power, like totemic power, you know, regardless, even, even with the inter German border no longer existing and even with, even with the Cold War no longer dividing the planet, it could be said like, well, you know, the Jews as a people, like Jewish people qua Jewish people, you know, they were, they were availed the. The most catastrophic evil that ever existed. And you know, this could reemerge at any time, you know, owing to the basic moral frailties of, of, of everybody else and their unique enmity towards the Jews as a people. So you know, Zionism is essentially like the defensive ramparts that they need, you know, like, I mean that's nonsense. But this had a tremendous totemic power. Again, I mean, owing to a number of variables. I don't think something like that could be, I don't think something like that could be constructed now like such an ideological narrative that had that kind of staying power, another kind of total. And it was kind of that like totally insinuated into political life and conceptual terms the way that particular narrative was. But you know, if you look at the history of Israel. Go ahead.

[Pete Canono]

Can I ask you one. Yeah, so you said it had nothing to do with woke. But I look at like, Israel and I look at what they're, you know, what. What comes out of the government, what they're trying to do. And then I look at like, Tel Aviv, the gayest city on earth. Those, Those two things, those seem to be cla. That's a clash to me that.

[Thomas]

Oh, no, it is, yeah.

[Pete Canono]

Israel, the government. And then you have Tel Aviv over here, which is just, you know, decadence is Sodom and Gomorrah. That. That doesn't seem like it's going to work.

[Thomas]

Oh, no, their internal situation. Absolutely, that's true. I was talking more in terms of world opinion. The reason why people suddenly. And the. And like people. It apparently, like, suddenly turned against the Jewish state. Like, I mean, in terms of. I mean.

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[Thomas]

I mean like in America and in the EU and things. That's. No, absolutely. It. Israel's a basket case. What's also too. That's kind of the point I was making is that the people who are kind of like, perpetuating Jewish life, you know, they're these like, hardline religious elements who really aren't Zionists. Like, they're super hardcore, like in. In turn in their identitarian commitments, but not because of Zionism. They think Zionism is nonsense, you know, and at worst, they think it's, you know, like, blasphemous and like a kind of idolatry, you know, the. It's. And then that's a whole other. That's a whole other paradigm that's rather complicated.

[Pete Canono]

But one could actually say that Israel is multicultural.

[Thomas]

Yeah, it is.

[Pete Canono]

And a multicultural society is not going. Is not going to last.

[Thomas]

That's why I like racialism on its own fate, like just on its own terms, like, doesn't work. You know, I mean, like, it's not. Not because like, race isn't real or something, or that it's not an essential component of identity and everything else, but that they can't just be like the exclusive basis of, you know, your communitarian mandate, you know, because. Yeah, it just. It doesn't. It. It doesn't. It doesn't lead anything. It. Other than. Other than some kind of superficial homogeneity that's, you know, like a mile wide and half an inch deep. But the. What's also what people have to understand is that, you know, kind of the. And I'll get into briefly, I'll. I'll kind of break down what, um, White. White Nolte's description is apropos. I think a lot of people don't truly understand what happened in, in the 1948 war. But you know, Israel, Israel's always had a problem with getting people who are willing to go live there. Like Israel's kind of a hole. Like, I'm not, again, I'm not saying that like oh, those people. I'm saying, do you want to go, do you want to go live in, in some, do you want to go live in, in some unstable, in geostrategic terms, you know, like densely massive, like, like overpopulated, you know, country in the desert where, you know, the cost of living basically to, to, to afford the kinds of luxuries we're used to in America or in, you know, the EU or Japan, you know, can be astronomical depending on the world situation, you know, where, you know, it's a, your day to day activities are kind of limited by the security situation, which is, which is one of like permanent emergency. And also again too, it's not, we're not talking about, we're not talking about like a guy who, you know, was born in Japan or like born in Spain or something like going back to the old country. Like Israel's an ideological state, you know, like, it's not, again, it's not, it's not kind of like the Jewish way of life as it's been for, you know, thousands of years in the near east, just like fully realized or something. So there was always this problem with getting people to move to Israel, you know, and that was one of the reasons for the, the huge push of the, the Jackson Vanik amendment, you know, which was obviously premised on, you know, the need to treat Jews as refugees from Soviet anti. Semitism. You know, nobody actually believed that, you know, Brezhnev or Andropolis was going to subject these people to a pogrom. The, the underlying impetus was this is a way to literally get people to Israel, you know, like the Soviet. So, you know, basically like, basically like bribing the Soviets to, to, they hand out visas for free, you know, to any, to any ethnic Jew within Soviet borders. You know. But they're, but, but they're, you know, they're, they're they're only with the understanding that their destination was Israel. You know, I mean that. And on top of that too, you know, I've always maintained one of the reasons Rabin was murdered and Ehud Barack, who's a pretty sensible guy, he's, he's, he's kind of a man without allies because I mean, he was he was just like a hard line, like, IDF military guy. So people on the left, including, you know, like Israeli labor types, don't like him. He's a hugely critical of Leakud. So these hardcore Zionists don't like him. But he all but admits that, you know, Barack was. Or Rabine was assassinated and Rabin was essentially going to end in a permanent emergency, you know, but they, But Israel ceases to exist if that emergency ever goes away. You know, like, I'm not even saying this is consciously within the. Within the contemplation of, of. Of the inner party of Leak or something. I think some people understand this very well, you know, and on a very conscious level. But, you know, Israel needs the. They need that. They need the threat of existential siege. They need the. The threat or at least the. The conceptual spectre realistic or not, so long as it. So long as it has credibility within the minds of, you know, the national community there. This, this idea that, you know, they're facing oblivion unless, you know, they.

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[Thomas]

They remain, they sustain this constant vigilance that's facilitated by, you know, this, this kind of like Spartan socialism, you know, that's. Without that, Israel doesn't have anything. You know, without that, it's, It's. It's. It's gonna like, evaporate into the pages of history, you know, and I think that's inevitable. But it. And it's already happening. But that's. That's what, that's what Nolte was getting at about Israel. And that's hugely important. And I mean, just like, briefly too, like, for people who don't accept what. Except that whole kind of. That whole kind of paradigm, you know, the, the 1948 war. Well, first of all, as. As any Zionist will enthusiastically remind you, the Arab forces in being and the men with real combat experience, they'd either been the ops of the British Empire or they'd been fighting on the side of the Third Reich, you know, including the Mufti Al Husseini, who was, had been branded a war criminal and had fled Berlin at the 11th hour. And you know, was, was basically, it was basically like living, living a vagrant life of, of a wanted man or an itinerant life, rather. So there's a unique vulnerability in terms of, in terms of the Arab population of Palestine and their ability to defend themselves, you know, at least contra their, their Zionist adversaries. What we think of as like the 1948 war or the, you know, the Liberation war or the war of Israeli independence or whatever court history calls it. We're essentially talking about Hana's, what they called Plan D, which was the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Even though it was clear they were going to get their way in some sense with the UN partition, Truman was not enthusiastic about it. And ironically, the only people who were, were the Soviet Union and that rapidly. They were the Soviets. Rapidly reversed course on that, but that's outside the scope we're talking about right now. But the Hana Ergon, this, the Stern Gang, they all, they all realize that even if they got, even if they got like, you know, fully half of the land in question, they still had a demographic problem. You know, they still, they still have their backs against the wall in terms of, you know, as regards the boundary rationality of what they were trying to accomplish. And that was, you know, a Jewish racial state wherein, you know, the entirety of a manic Palestine was in their hands, you know, demographically, militarily and otherwise. So in, in March 1948, Plan D kicks off and Zionist paramilitary elements. It was the first time they were under a unified command. Really. All the Palestinian Arabs had, was they had Abd al Qadar Al Husseini and a man named Hassan Salami. They succeeded in cutting the road between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. And had there been the forces in being to assault, they might have had the manpower to seize Jerusalem. And that would have been a game changer, in my opinion. But be as it may, The Zionist leadership realized they, they had to act systematically and they had to act now, not just because of a possible Palestinian offensive to preempt what they were planning, but they discerned that there might very well be a change in the, in the international situation in particular, kind of like Washington DC's mood towards the concept of a Jewish state. And you know, just as, as kind of the Cold War hardened in terms of, you know, the nascent alliance structure. They. They thought that their ambitions would probably be sacrificed. I mean, you can argue that either way but again, in terms of what, in terms of, in terms of Zionism as an idea, you know, like we talked about in Nolte's view, which I think is correct ideas of their own animating force, you know, this designist project had to be seen through or would die, especially at that juncture. So the, then the Clinic of Palestine, it really went into full operation in April and May of 48. It had two, and really only two like basic objectives. The first was to swiftly and systematically take any, any installations available by the British civilian military or infrastructural, you know, to occupy them, repurpose them as the infrastructure for the nascent state and in the short term, you know, employ them and as needed in, you know, for the duration of the military operation at hand, which also gave them a huge advantage. They also, they were able to facilitate this because there was a minority of pro Zionist British officers on the ground. And there's still this element, you know, in the British ruling establishment which, and people could run entire volumes under why that is, you know, especially in this era, especially in the era in question when British soldiers and civilians had died at the hands of Ergon and other Zionist elements. I mean this, this completely stupefies me. But there was enough support on the ground for Zionists among the British garrison, which was in the process of bugging out, you know, that this, this eased the kind of tactical burden on accomplishing these things. The Palestinians had no, no such advantage. Okay. And they're also again, you know, the palace, what was the Palestinian leadership, they were access adjacent, you know, so they were, if they were wanted men and if they weren't formally wanted, you know, they, they certainly would have become targeted if they re emerged, you know, so this idea that, oh, the Palestinians are just, you know, they're just, they're just fools. They're just, you know, savages who couldn't mobilize. That's complete regardless how anybody feels about the Palestinian cause or anything. That's just not, that's just not true. The second and the most important obviously aspects or ambition of Plan D and of the, the war generally, it was to, to ethnically cleanse the, what was to be the future Jewish state of as many Palestinians as possible. The main direct action element of the Zionist was Hagana, which had several, they had several brigades each. Each brigade was assigned a village or a township to occupy. And almost all of these villages were ordered to be destroyed. And you know, the people, the, the people expelled or, or outright killed. And some of these, this led to some difficult situations, especially in mixed areas where there wasn't great support for the Zionist cause. I mean for obvious reasons where you know, you had, you had Zionist paramilitaries literally extricating people's Arab neighbors. In some cases they're intermarriages and things. You know, like very ugly stuff. There was. The most. What really was kind of a game changer in terms that. In terms of world opinion as well as in. In terms of what truly radicalized not just the Palestinians on ground, but the sympathetic Arab regimes, especially those populated by, you know, by Sunnis and you know, Palestine is a Sunni majority. April 20 Auspicious Date 1948 the Dariasin Massacre in Haifa. Hagana assaulted Haifa and everybody, everybody was, everybody was killed regardless of age, sex, overall health, you know, women, children, it didn't matter. And, and it was, it was very, it was very chaotic. There's some reports of trophy taking from the mutilation of the dead, like people taking noses and ears. There were reports that were filled with stamp substantiated of, of young girls and women being raped. Know, this was not, this was not some well executed, you know, like clean kind of like IDF operation or something. Okay. It was, it was an ugly and brutal harassing in all the worst ways. And the response to that was at this kind of. As world opinion kind of became outraged by this. You know, the Zionist leadership, they took to these kinds of. They. They took to these sort of performative endeavors of, you know, publicly encouraging Palestinians to remain in, in these mixed areas, you know, saying, you know, you'll not come to any harm and you know, everybody's rights are going to be honored in, in the future Jewish state. I mean, which was, I mean even if that was sincere on the part of political cadres, I have no reason to think it was. But I mean, let's say it was. You know, the, the situation on the ground was what it was and it had its own momentum and couldn't be stopped at that point, in my opinion. You know, but all told, all told, about three quarters of a million Palestinians were, you know, expelled from the land. You know, probably about 20000 people were. Were killed outright. And again, this was not exclusive in military age males. Quite the contrary. It was, you know, categorically but that, you know, the, And again the, the British had an arms embargo on mandate Palestine. Truman again was no friends of the Zionist regime. I mean even after, you know, victory was declared In May of 48, Truman issued a de facto recognition that, you know, of the Zionist state. You know, buddy, he refused a de jure acknowledgment of their legitimacy. The Soviet Union was the first state to provide that. And the design elements on the ground, you know, Hagana first among them, they'd gotten the. This. The small arms that they were able to procure were largely from the east block, you know, and it goes to show you how the reason why Moscow envisioned Israel, a Zionist Israel, as being adjacent to them ideologically. I mean, part of it is, I mean, is because again, I mean, in old's point know it. Zionism wasn't. Is the progeny of the same nexus of causation as were the other, you know, great European ideologies of the 20th century. I mean, I believe from where Stalin was sitting, he. He probably viewed. He probably viewed the treatment of the Palestinians and the way that he viewed his own treatment of the nationalities. And well, you know, this, this is a way of creating a tabular rasa so that, you know, some kind of Israeli socialism can be built, you know, and the reason why. And again, I mean, the, the reason why that was an idea that could be entertained. You know, Stalin was the consummate realist. You know, it wasn't prone to flights of fantasy. It made sense why you would think that, you know, but ultimately developed, you know, again, to. With the east bloc being, you know, rabidly anti Zionist and, and the DDR carrying on and like literally an active war against the Jewish state.

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[Thomas]

You know, I think that, I mean that's, that's demonstrative of Nolte's point too. I mean, all this stuff, I don't see how people can reject the kind of. The kind of Hegelian view of history. I mean, with some qualifications, obviously, when they look at how these things actually developed, you know, I mean, we're not, we're not just talking about arguments between historians and kind of academic ivory tower cloisters, you know, we're talking about,

[John Daly]

you

[Thomas]

know, war and peace phenomenon that actually developed and was just positive in terms of the outcome of the Cold War. It, you know, I think. One of the. One of the reasons, You know, one of the reasons why it was. Such a pariah state, you know, was. Was for the reason it wasn't just because, you know, in order to. It was. It was a convenient sort of ideological framing for the Eastern Bloc to say, you know, oh, this is.

[Pete Canono]

This is. This is.

[Thomas]

If this is a fascist state like the Bundes Republic, but even worse because it's premised on overtly, you know, racialist principles. You know, it was because on some level, everybody discerned that there was something unseemly about Zionism, you know, that. Not. Not because, like, it's Jewish or not. Not because, you know, of anything intrinsic to the Jewish character. People can make that case that they want. I'm saying that's not what. That. That's not why it was a kind of natural target for Soviet propaganda. It's because the. The first half of the 20th century was. It was. Was catastrophic. That goes without saying. Okay? And even somebody who doesn't accept in. In ethical or. Or conceptual terms, you know, the claims, the international war crime tribunal at Nuremberg or the claims of, you know, court historians who posit this, you know, sunder big theory of Germany and. And invoke it off Hitler as. As some kind of. As some kind of standing for Lucifer even somebody doesn't accept that at all, you know, saying you've got to accept this sort of exceptional state that's premised on this sort of like rabid racial nationalism. The structures of which, although superficially similar to familiar ones, are basically all oriented towards, you know, the. The maintenance of this totally abnormal, you know, sociological and military paradigm. You just got to accept all this, you know, because it's essential only do you know, these. And the reasons presented are things that, you know, kind of like remind people of the darkest. Kind of like the darkest times, the inner war years and. And what was suggested as. As being necessary for the survival of the race or. Or the ascended working class or whatever else. I mean, it's not something that people wanted to think about, you know, and it's not something that people felt comfortable with, you know, kind of raising as the banner of legitimacy regardless of what they felt about or if they had any opinion about, you know, like, Jewish people or Zionism. And that's. And that's also something no said. In one of his last collection of essays, he said that ultimately, you know, Zionism has to either fulfill its sort of internal mission you know, as a monumental idea, it's not historically contingent, you know, because NTI agreed with Carl Schmid in that regard. And Heider, you know, I, I, I, ideas have their own self contained revelation, you know, and that's either realized or it's not. And in the case of Israel, that's only realized really by some kind of inseig and the, in, in, in, in context that would, that would basically mean what? You know, the, the annihilation of the Palestinians as a people, you know, is that possible today? I mean physically, yeah. Is there the political will there? I mean to your point about Israel being, I mean not to sound like some sort of like Marxist or something, but is, is it a, is it fatally compromised by its own internal contradictions? Like. Yeah, I think actually maybe it is. But even were it not, you know, I think, I don't think they could, I don't think, I don't think Israelis could start categorically exterminating the people of Gaza any more than in 1980, Brev could have assaulted Poland, you know, like the Soviets did Hungary in 56. Like this would have been like unthinkable considering the state of not, not even just like world opinion, just like conceptually like what people can tolerate, you know, morally good.

[Pete Canono]

It's also, I mean you talk about it being an anachronism. It seems like, you know, 100 million people were killed in the first half of the century to prevent states like Israel from existing.

[Thomas]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So it's this case of special pleading where it's like, oh, but you know, this is the case of, this is the case of Israel because you know, there's all these exceptional circumstances that threaten it. But without, you know, without, without the Nuremberg narrative having like truly kind of punctuated cachet in the collective memory. Like yeah, that just doesn't it the people, that, that means nothing to people. So. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Like why, and that's the point of making people too, you know, like with people like me or you know, some of our right wing Palestinian and Iranian and Lebanese friends, when they raise the issue of Israeli race racialism, they're not saying like, oh, Israelis are the real racialists. What they're saying is that the regime tells you that everything Israel does is utterly unacceptable in all cases. But Israel, like that's the point. Like, the point isn't on its own terms, like is racism bad? That that's total, that does nothing to do with it. It's why this special pleading and you know, and, and, and even, and, and Even notwithstanding that, like, why is this such an imperative? You know, like, you can't make the claim, like people did during the Cold War, that this is an absolute strategic necessity because for better or worse,

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[Thomas]

know, America was in the Cold War

[Pete Canono]

and

[Thomas]

its enemies were, you know, the client states of the Soviet Union, which were Israel's enemies. Now, how much that owed to the fact of America provoking these circumstances but not practicing balanced diplomacy and regardless whether the color should have been fought or not, like, that's not important because, like, America was in the Cold War and take like, 1967 or 73, you know, like, the die was cast. You know, it's not as if, like, the brakes could be put on the geostrategic situation as it had developed. So, yeah, there's. You're absolutely right. Yeah, that's about. There's some other stuff I want to take up, but again, it's. It's. It's. I kind of want to conclude this, like, nolty discussion, so I want to save that for next time I want to do. I haven't decided yet. I'm. I'm. I'm rereading the. The Sims. Excuse me, I'm sorry. Biography of Hitler, which raises really important concepts, including, you know, Hitler contra Roosevelt, and Hitler's understanding of America as not just, you know, Germany's primary adversary, but also of, you know, the like. Like the future of this planet hinging on, you know, the. The ability of. Of civilizations to constitute themselves as superpowers and how, like, Europe was coming up short, you know, in every. In every categorical criteria, contra America. And this wasn't just a question of. Of practical. Of a military ambition or a practical, you know, war planning and things that it had to do with the entirety of Europe's historical mission and which would, in Hitler's mind, would either succeed or. Or Europe would simply perish. And to understand that is essential understanding Hitler and the war. It's essential understanding Roosevelt and that the fact that Roosevelt and Hitler and their radio addresses were always, like, in dialogue with each other, you know, not with Churchill, not with Stalin, not, you know, with. Not with the world generally. So we could. I. I was playing with.

[Pete Canono]

You want to. You want to do a. Do a few of those with me.

[Thomas]

And, yeah, that's what I was getting at. I think it'd be better suited to a series that we do rather than me just like doing it on the podcast. But I'd also want to. I'd also don't want to tell you

[Pete Canono]

your business in terms of no, no, that sounds great. Yeah. I wanted to mention everyone to hear this too. Thomas dropped the first episode of season two of Mind Phaser with Jay Burton and. Yeah, that was a banger. Yeah, that was good, man.

[Thomas]

No, thank you, man. No, Burden's a prince, man. Like, he's. He's a great guy and a great content creator. He's also a dear friend and he's nice to everybody. Always really likes his appearances, man. So that helps me. Obviously, He's.

[Pete Canono]

He's also. He doesn't allow himself to be trapped inside a box. He. He. He has a lot of different influences, and I don't think he really cares what anybody thinks about, you know, about any of them either. He's just, you know, he has his opinions, and I think they're solid.

[Thomas]

No, he's a great guy, man. He really is. I can't. I can't. I can't praise him effusively enough. But, yeah, no, this was great, man. Thanks again.

[Pete Canono]

Yeah, so we'll. We'll plan that. We'll plan that out privately and. Yeah, hit some plugs real quick and we'll end this.

[Thomas]

Yeah. The best place to find me is at my website. It's thomas777.com number7homas777.com that you can, like, find. That's the link to my Twitter. There's a link to my Instagram, It's a link to my sub stick, It's a link to my tea gram. And just like, random other stuff's on there. But the sub stack is where the pod is. It's capital re a L underscore. Thomas777 substack.com because we've launched season two of Mind Phaser, I'm gonna make the season one content free. I'm gonna. I'm probably gonna do that on Monday. Like, like all season one, you'll be able to exit for free. I may or may not upload it to YouTube or Rumble, but for now, you can, like, you don't need any special app or anything. You can just listen on, just go. Go to substack.com and anything that's. That's, that's not by a paywall. I mean, you can just click it and listen to it. Um, but yeah, that's. That's. That's what I got.

[Pete Canono]

All right, till the next time. Thank you as always.

[Thomas]

Yeah, thank you, man.

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