Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Peter McCormack Show
Episode: #050 — Eric Kaufmann — How Wokeness Hijacked the West
Date: February 12, 2025
Host: Peter McCormack
Guest: Jonathan Haidt (Note: The episode was described as featuring Eric Kaufmann, but the transcript is of a conversation with Jonathan Haidt.)

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode explores the intellectual and cultural history behind what’s now labeled “wokeness,” tracing its roots through academia, media, and politics. Jonathan Haidt and Peter McCormack analyze how progressive ideas about identity, race, and gender moved from campuses to mainstream institutions, and debate whether Western societies have swung too far in suppressing dissent and critical discussion in the name of progressivism. They examine generational divides, the influence of social media, the shifting Overton window, and what a “post-progressive” era might look like.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Evolution of Progressivism

• Haidt explains the historical trajectory from early 20th-century liberal progressivism, focusing on economic and cultural liberalization, to the current moment where race, gender, and sexuality have become “sacred” identity markers.
• He distinguishes between the original (sometimes conservative) aims of progressives and today’s forms of activism, emphasizing the notion that “the dial just keeps getting cranked” on cultural and identity-based initiatives, lacking internal mechanisms for self-correction.
  • Quote:

    “There are these three kind of waves where the craziness goes up. It then calms down a bit and then it goes up again but to a higher place.” (15:09)

2. The Role of Academia in Mainstreaming Radical Ideas

• Academia serves as an incubator: radical ideas start among “bohemian intellectuals,” gain traction as universities expand, then spread beyond campus via media.
• University echo chambers amplify DEI (diversity, equity, inclusion) policies—what Haidt calls “political loyalty oaths”—and suppress dissent.
• Academia is described as a “monoculture,” repelling conservatives and generating hostile climates for heterodox thinkers.
  • Quote:

    “If we take social sciences in Britain, academics, it’s 9 to 1, left to right. In the US, it’s 13 to 1, maybe 14 to 1, and the 1 is in the closet… there’s no check on the extremism.” (17:06)

3. How Social Media Supercharged Woke Ideas

• Social media is blamed for accelerating and amplifying the spread of ideology, rewarding dogmatism and creating reputational risk for dissent.
• Terms like “systemic racism” and “microaggressions” used to be academia-bound but now dominate major media discourse.
  • Quote:

    “All of a sudden all of these terms are showing up in the New York Times and the Washington Post and all these main… so all of these… used to be a kind of firewall between… but this has really burst that kind of blood–brain barrier and now it’s just everywhere.” (15:19)

4. Education as the Primary Battleground

• Haidt asserts that school-based indoctrination is now more impactful than universities and is responsible for shifting generational attitudes radically left on identity issues.
• The UK and US differ in the extent and progression of this trend, but activist teachers and vague government policies make it hard to root out.
• Proposes curriculum transparency, depoliticizing classrooms, and recruiting political diversity in teaching.
  • Quote (on teaching both sides):

    “With schools where these kids are captive and they’re minors, and there are so many activist teachers in the system… I just don’t believe that these people can teach this fairly. And so there’s going to be indoctrination.” (38:40)

5. The Limits and Costs of “Being Kind” and Empathy

• Haidt critiques the current use of “empathy” in woke activism, noting it’s selective and used to justify not only inclusion, but also hostility and censorship toward dissenters.
  • Quote:

    “Empathy is actually no guide to morality. It’s all about who you’re empathizing towards and who you are hostile towards.” (117:56)

6. Populism vs. Elite Capture

• Discussion of how “elite culture” once aligned with economic liberalism has shifted to align with cultural progressivism, and how new populist movements (“reform”) seek to rebalance political power from captured institutions to ordinary citizens.
• Populism is defended as a legitimate democratic response when elites are unresponsive, but both agree safeguards are needed to avoid excesses or offense to minorities.
  • Quote:

    “Populism is the only way you can fight back against the interest groups that exist in the established system. So it’s absolutely central to democracy.” (98:04)

7. The Trans Issue as a Breaking Point

• The debate over trans rights, especially in sport, is seen as a boundary even many traditional progressives are not willing to cross—illustrating limits to left-liberal coalition and new opportunities for populist critique.
• Describes an environment of fear and silence due to reputational and legal risks of dissent.
  • Quote:

    “It’s a bit like kryptonite. So if you’re tarred with this kryptonite and you’re radioactive… if they associate with you, they get some of that stuff on them…” (67:37)

8. Prospects for a Post-Progressive Future

• Haidt outlines “post-progressivism” as a project aimed not just at populist revolt but at changing high culture—reforming academia, media, and the elite worldview itself.
• Notes that elite reflection is underway (e.g. mainstream publications questioning DEI and identity politics), but worries younger generations elevated on woke values may be resistant to course correction.
• New anti-woke countercultures are forming, especially in online media, podcasts, and alternative journalism.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (With Timestamps)

• On the self-perpetuating logic of wokeness:

  “But the basic idea remains the same. And so I don’t think the ideas are that different. I just think the dial’s been twisted and it’s spread off the campus.” (13:19–14:15)

• On the monoculture in academia:

  “The problem is, this pipeline then becomes really, really, you know, a monoculture and it reproduces a lack of viewpoint diversity.” (20:36)

• On empathy:

  “Empathy is actually no guide to morality. It’s all about who your empathy empathizing towards and who you are hostile towards. And so this idea of empathy is such a crock.” (117:56)

• On elite self-interest:

  “People are economically to the right… but they’re culturally to the left. They believe in maybe open borders. They believe in, you know, low-cost labor. They believe in woke because they think that’s how you’re a good person.” (21:26)

• On trans issues as a progressive “breaking point”:

  “The trans issue… forced a number of women, not all, but a number of women, to stand back and say, well, hold on a second, this is my breaking point.” (59:55)

• On post-progressive efforts in elite culture:

  “There is a moment of reflection right now in the elite culture… but the question is, can we actually then get that to shift even more and to actually be a proper shift in the elite culture away from DEI and away from this obsession with race, gender, and sexuality?” (44:15)

• On the need for government action:

  “We have to limit the freedom of these institutional bodies in order to maximize human freedom.” (78:09)

Important Segments & Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |----------------|-------------------------------------------------------| | 06:19–15:00 | History of progressivism to “The Great Awokening” | | 13:25–17:06 | Academia as root/catalyst for woke ideology | | 15:19–16:50 | Spread via media & social media acceleration | | 20:40–23:12 | Academic monoculture's institutional effects | | 25:13–28:06 | Distinguishing genuine belief from status games | | 35:02–40:11 | Wokeness in schools; teacher activism | | 44:15–51:53 | Post-progressivism; elite-level culture shift | | 55:22–59:05 | Social media’s role in amplifying taboo topics | | 59:05–67:37 | Trans rights & silencing debate in sports | | 78:09–80:21 | Government’s role in countering institutional capture | | 106:51–109:49 | Can progressivism self-correct? | | 109:49–113:55 | Impact of alternative media & podcasts | | 117:51–119:42 | “Empathy” and its political use |

Original Tone & Language

The conversation is frank and occasionally irreverent. Haidt and McCormack are critical of academic and institutional capture by the left, but also acknowledge legitimate early achievements of progressivism (anti-discrimination, equal treatment, etc.). The mood alternates between pessimism about institutional inertia and optimism about emerging counter-publics and changing elite sentiment.

Conclusion & Recommendations

Haidt warns the “woke” trajectory contains within it mechanisms for self-amplification and lacks self-correction, with activism often mutating into dogma. Lasting change, he argues, requires:

• A major focus on education reform (curriculum, teacher training, hiring diversity).
• Elite-level reflection and reform of values.
• Building alternative intellectual institutions and platforms (podcasts, new journals).
• A “rational populism” that rebalances power but doesn’t devolve into reaction or bigotry.

He sees the current digital media ecosystem as a major lever for change, especially as new generations favor long-form, decentralized conversations over legacy media.

Closing Quote

“Universities should be teaching this. We study communism and fascism and nationalism and all the other ideologies. This is an ideology that is so powerful… But, of course, academics find that too uncomfortable. And that’s one of the reasons—just one example—of how academia is failing…” (120:05)

Further Resources Mentioned

• Jonathan Haidt’s book: Taboo
• Online course about “woke” at Buckingham University
• Writers and thinkers: Coleman Hughes, Glenn Loury, Ibram X. Kendi, Chris Rufo

Note: This summary is designed for full comprehension, even for listeners unfamiliar with the multi-hour original conversation, and captures the episode's main arguments, memorable exchanges, and core analytic insights.