The Peter McCormack Show

Episode #112: Suella Braverman – Too Conservative for the Conservative Party
Date: September 12, 2025
Host: Peter McCormack
Guest: Suella Braverman

Episode Overview

This episode features former Home Secretary Suella Braverman discussing the state of British politics, her time in government, the decline of the Conservative Party, the rise of Reform UK and Nigel Farage, and her vision for conservative values in the UK. The conversation is direct, candid, and at times deeply personal, touching on both societal anxieties and policy failures, and punctuated with humor and cultural references.

Main Themes and Purpose

• The identity crisis of the Conservative Party and whether Braverman is "too Conservative" for it.
• The erosion of British culture and values, decline in public trust and national confidence.
• Explosive growth of unions' influence, government paralysis, and policy failures.
• Detailed critique of immigration policies and the Conservative/Labour approach.
• The challenge of party loyalty vs. loyalty to country.
• The meteoric rise of Reform UK and the existential threat it poses to the Conservatives.
• Reflections on leadership, courage, public service, and optimism for Britain’s future.

Detailed Summary and Key Insights

1. State of Britain: Disillusionment and Loss

00:00, 09:39, 12:38

• Braverman opens by describing a Britain transformed by “two-tier rule” and cultural decay:
  • “People are really feeling sad and heartbroken… We want our country back. We feel that it’s slipping through our fingers…” (A, 00:00)
• She sees widespread anger, fear, and a sense of alienation among ordinary Britons.
• Highlights immigration, economic crisis, and collapsing law and order as key national emergencies:
  • “At the top of the list I would put mass, unprecedented uncontrolled immigration... destroying our sense of cohesion and harmony.” (A, 09:53)
  • “The economy is on its knees... we are facing very dark days when it comes to the economy.” (A, 10:56)

2. The Power of the Unions and Government Paralysis

02:12, 04:21, 05:16

• Braverman forcefully accuses unions of holding the government "hostage":
  • “It feels like the unions and the union bosses are holding this government hostage. And since the last general election, the unions have amassed increasing levels of power...” (A, 02:15)
  • “You can’t appease terrorists and you can’t appease militant union bosses.” (A, 03:08)
• Argues Labour’s policies make it easier for unions to disrupt, and criticizes the Conservatives for not using available legal powers.
• She would adopt “much more stringent powers,” referencing Thatcher’s uncompromising battle with unions:
  • “Mrs. Thatcher got it right. She was the last real prime minister who took on the unions and won.” (A, 05:25)
  • Shares a childhood anecdote: “Arthur Scargill was, I think, one of my earliest two words that I uttered when I was a baby…” (A, 05:53)

3. Immigration and Its Political Handling

09:53, 29:49, 31:13

• Braverman blames “mass, unprecedented uncontrolled immigration” for social and economic decline.
• Shares inside account from her time as Home Secretary:
  • “I could have raised the salary threshold… I wanted to raise it to 45,000, but I would have been willing to settle on 40 grand.” (A, 30:38)
  • “He [Rishi Sunak] was of the view… that more immigration into the country was a good thing for the economy.” (A, 31:17)
  • “They only focused on GDP. They were not interested in GDP per capita, which was falling.” (A, 32:15)

4. Party Failure, Loyalty, and Ideological Drift

13:06, 14:43, 20:00, 45:10

• Braverman reflects on Conservative failures, owning up to them on election night:
  • “I was, I think, the first Conservative MP to say sorry. On election night, July 2024…” (A, 13:20)
• She asserts the party has become too “liberal and statist and technocratic,” abandoning “bread and butter Conservative values.” (A, 14:43)
• Examples: transgender issues, multiculturalism, and supposed "white privilege" confessions by Tory MPs.
  • “There were Conservative MPs who were confessing on television to be beneficiaries of white privilege… Conservative MPs, white men going on television saying, yeah, I've benefited from white privilege.” (A, 18:45)
• On loyalty:
  • “Country first, party second.” (A, 45:18)

5. On Leadership, Politics, and Media Spin

22:13, 23:24, 24:36, 24:53, 37:36

• Braverman describes politics as obsessed with “optics” and media lines, leading to superficial, ineffective policy:
  • “Every minister is very heavily scripted and those scripts are approved by the central body. There’s a lot of focus on social media… There is an obsessive focus on the media.” (A, 22:13)
• On her friction with Rishi Sunak, ties it to lack of courage and willingness to confront root causes:
  • “The problem I had really was I didn’t fit in with the Rishi Sunak Cabinet… There were so many disagreements…” (A, 24:53)
  • “On the boats, for example… The real reason we've not stopped the boats is because we haven't come out of the European Convention of Human Rights.” (A, 25:12)
  • “[Rishi Sunak] was arguably our worst ever prime minister in the history of the country.” (A, 39:05)
• Peter argues for honesty and realness in politics, citing Nigel Farage as an example:
  • “Whatever they throw at him... he comes across as, you know, a little bit more real to people. When I say honest, just a bit more real.” (B, 23:24)

6. The Rise of Reform UK & Electoral Upheaval

45:27, 46:21, 47:01

• Braverman acknowledges Reform’s rise is directly due to Conservative failure:
  • “They are a consequence of the Conservative Party's failure… I lost count of the number of doors I knocked on where the people would tell me… ‘you’re not a Conservative party anymore and I'm going off to Reform.’” (A, 47:01)
  • “I did warn about this. I... said we’re heading for a wipeout… unfortunately I wasn't grandstanding.” (A, 47:35)
• Discusses existential questions of whether the Tories can reinvent themselves or “combine” the competing factions that defined their 2019 victory.
• On Nigel Farage and Reform potentially being “more left than the Conservatives”:
  • “I think that’s actually quite hard to do right now as things stand. The Conservative Party, for example, is ambivalent on the ECHR.” (A, 49:07)

7. Conservative/Libertarian Economic Vision

52:29, 55:01, 55:16

• Peter shares his journey towards libertarianism and frustration with growing government.
• Suella agrees with aspects but notes the caution required, referencing the problems of “unbridled free market” and austerity’s societal costs:
  • “I think we need to reimagine Thatcherism for the 21st century… I think there can be a lack of a safety blanket with that unbridled approach... we do need some state intervention.” (A, 55:16)
• Expresses interest in a “Vancian” mixed economy model.

8. Harmony, Labels, and the Battle of Ideas

63:25, 64:05, 66:43

• Discussion on whether working with ideological opponents for harmony is possible or desirable:
  • “If you disagree with something and you consider something to be so offensive, wrong, damaging, it’s worth fighting against that… and engaging in the battle of ideas.” (A, 64:05)
• Braverman defends publicly calling out difficult truths, e.g. the grooming gangs scandal:
  • “Speaking the truth is a way of countering these myths... Silence was part of the problem... they gave in. They didn’t take on the battle… Out of fear, they chose to step away from justice…” (A, 65:15)
• Both agree the nation is fundamentally divided – “it’s almost like a fight for the future, what this country is and what it means.” (B, 66:17)

9. Cultural/Cathartic Moments

69:46, 69:50, 73:08

• The episode ends on a lighter, nostalgic note – sharing memories of concerts, music, and the enduring sense of British unity in those moments.
  • “You do feel a sense of unity and it’s so inspiring. And your heart just…” (A, 73:17)
• Braverman shares about her Mauritian and Kenyan heritage and her parents’ experience of coming to the UK.
  • “My parents came in the 1960s… they really felt part of Britain... My parents felt a huge debt of gratitude to Britain and the British people...” (A, 77:37)
  • “The Brits are not racist… People protesting against migrant hotels are not far right. The British people have extended the hand of friendship for decades... What’s happening now is on another scale.” (A, 78:25)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On culture and national mood:
  “We are desperately looking for some kind of hope… People are really scared that our culture, our history, the pride and the bravery and the genius that’s defined Britain and the British people for decades and centuries is being undermined, eroded, beaten down.”
  (A, 00:00)

• On unions controlling government:
  “You can’t appease terrorists and you can’t appease militant union bosses.”
  (A, 03:08)

• On real Conservative values:
  “The Conservative Party has lost its way in recent years and fallen victim to faddish ideas. It’s lost its confidence and its courage to stand up for bread and butter Conservative values. And it’s been too liberal, ultimately...”
  (A, 14:50)

• On being ‘too Conservative’:
  “What is too Conservative for the Conservative Party?”
  (A, 14:43)

• On Sunak and failed leadership:
  “He was arguably our worst ever prime minister in the history of the country.”
  (A, 39:05)

• On party/country loyalty:
  “Country first, party second.”
  (A, 45:18)

• On hard conversations:
  “It’s not necessarily easy. It will require challenging conversations and debates, but necessary ones.”
  (A, 44:48)

• On optimism:
  “I do worry. I do worry about the future of our country because I do feel that we’re losing it… But it is there. I see it in my constituency. I see it alive and well, but it’s being beaten down.”
  (A, 68:46)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Britain’s cultural decline & starting the conversation: 00:00–02:12
• Unions, strikes, and government inaction: 02:12–08:16
• Immigration policy and government failures: 09:50–13:20, 29:49–33:46
• Conservative identity crisis / “too Conservative” discussion: 14:43–20:07
• Party infighting, media management, and losing her Home Secretary post: 22:13–25:32
• Economic philosophy, libertarianism & the future of the right: 52:29–58:05
• Rise of Reform UK and Farage: 45:27–49:42
• On courage in leadership: 41:43–42:06
• Battle of ideas & public debate: 63:25–66:43
• Music, family, and cultural unity stories: 69:46–79:12

Tone and Language

• Braverman is forthright, sometimes combative, and nostalgic; she blends critique with personal anecdotes.
• McCormack balances seriousness with humor, directness, and shares personal political reflections.
• The conversation is informal and unscripted, particularly in the music and heritage segments, showing warmth between host and guest even amid sharp political disagreements.

Conclusion

This episode is a candid and often unflinching look at the post-2024 state of UK politics, with Suella Braverman arguing that only a return to genuine conservative principles—despite being "too Conservative for the Conservative Party"—can restore faith, order, and pride in Britain. The conversation dives deeply into the failures of leadership, the rise of political alternatives, and the role of courage versus caution in public life, offering unique insight into both Braverman’s outlook and the political mood of the nation.