#115 - Dr. David Unwin - Reversing Type 2 Diabetes, The Truth About Food Addiction & Why Our Health System is Broken

Summary

The Peter McCormack Show #115: Dr. David Unwin – Reversing Type 2 Diabetes, Food Addiction, and the Broken Health System

Date: September 23, 2025
Host: Peter McCormack
Guest: Dr. David Unwin (NHS GP & Fellow of British Society of Lifestyle Medicine)

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Overview

In this candid and insightful episode, Peter McCormack sits down with Dr. David Unwin to unravel the interconnected crises of type 2 diabetes, food addiction, and the systemic failures of our healthcare system. Using Peter’s own struggles as a case study, they explore why society is getting heavier, sicker, and more medicated—and what can be done about it. Dr. Unwin shares practical advice, powerful stories from decades of NHS practice, and exposes both the personal and political stakes of Britain’s public health crisis.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Myth of "Personal Discipline" in Obesity

• It's Not Just Willpower:

  • Dr. Unwin challenges the narrative that weight is primarily due to lack of discipline. He emphasizes the addictive potential of junk food and the unhealthy societal narratives around blame and willpower.
  • Quote: “My message is not that you lack willpower, that you're somehow weak. I think that is almost a dangerous statement. And it's really bad for people's self esteem…” (04:01)

• Food Environment and Addiction:

  • Like nicotine and alcohol, many foods today are engineered to be addictive. This undercuts personal choice and autonomy.
  • Quote: “Many junk foods are addictive… if junk food addiction did exist… that's something far more serious.” (04:23)

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The Stakes – Why Address Health Now?

• The Spectrum of Futures:

  • Dr. Unwin shares his experience seeing patients age over decades, noting how choices today lead to vastly different outcomes: “With a bigger belly brings with it an increased risk of 8 cancers… colorectal cancer going up and up...and it's linked to a big belly.” (07:11)
  • The conversation highlights that higher body weight correlates with increased risks for cancer, high blood pressure, and especially type 2 diabetes.

• Two Paths for Patients:

  • Dr. Unwin advocates for a collaborative approach: lifestyle changes vs. lifelong medication. Astonishing savings and health improvements have been seen in his practice when patients are empowered to choose lifestyle intervention.
  • Quote: “If most patients say to me, just like you, well, I keep saving. And those savings are like standing orders...every time I start somebody on lifelong medication, that's a standing order against the treasury.” (09:03)

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Dr. Unwin’s Personal and Professional Turning Point

• From Medication to Motivation:
  • Until age 55, Dr. Unwin relied on medication, believing people couldn’t change. Two pivotal women changed his views:
    1. Patient Who Reversed Diabetes via Diet: “Doctor, when I met you last time, you know, I was upset, really, because you didn't seem very curious about what I've done. And, you know, I'm wondering whether you're medically qualified… Have you even got O level biology?” (13:24)
    2. His Psychologist Wife: Taught him the collaborative, non-shaming approach to behavior change.
  • This led to group consultations (often done for free) and a transformative community approach: “We did them as group consultations and you know what? We're still doing them for free.” (20:11)

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Understanding and (Reversing) Type 2 Diabetes

• Epidemic Context:

  • Dr. Unwin charts a tenfold increase in type 2 diabetes in his practice since 1986.
    • “When I started…there were 56 individuals… now about 600…same practice.” (25:04)
  • Systemic factors—not genetics—are largely to blame: “The wrong answer is like genetics and stuff like that… the environment is acting on genetic predisposition.” (25:27)

• Simple Risk Assessment:

  • Waist-to-height ratio is a key indicator. “Your belly should be less than half your height.” (27:42)
  • Pre-diabetes and diabetes diagnosis relies on Hemoglobin A1C blood tests.

• The Physiology—Fat, Sugar, and Insulin:

  • The dual-fuel metaphor: the body can run on sugar or fat. Insulin resistance leads to fat storage, especially in the belly and liver (fatty liver), which further exacerbates metabolic issues.
  • Quote: “A long, silent scream from your liver 10 years before you actually become diabetic… and people are not listening.” (36:15)
  • Fatty liver is now common—impacting a third of people, including kids as young as 12.

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Public Health Catastrophe: The Broken System

• The burden of diabetes is crushing public and private finances, with insufficient focus on prevention.
• Fat jabs (e.g., Ozempic): Dr. Unwin is cautiously critical—helpful for some but a mere “window of opportunity”, not a cure. Informed consent is lacking; risks are underreported.
  • “In the British Medical Journal it was published that 82 people have died associated with these jabs. Did you know that?” (41:29)

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Food Addiction – The Next Frontier

• Addiction is Real:

  • Dr. Unwin’s wife is regarded as a world expert in food addiction. Research shows 14% of adults are addicted to junk food (46:30, 51:00).
  • The dopamine-driven comfort of junk food is brief – feeding a cycle of compulsion.

• Quote: “Why was I eating milk chocolate? Why did I eat so many Jaffa Cakes to a point where I ruin my health? I believed I was stressed... But behind those beliefs was something far more sinister. And it wasn't until I tried to give them up... it took me a year to properly give up biscuits.” (49:25)

• Institutional Denial:

  • The World Health Organization does not formally recognize food addiction, preventing support for those who need it (55:11).
  • “If you come to me with gambling addiction… the WHO agree that exists… but food addiction does not exist.” (55:11)

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The Engineered Food Environment

• Food companies deliberately design products for addictiveness—the “bliss point” sought in product development leads to overconsumption.
• Quote: “So they have laboratories and they're looking for the bliss point… what gets those little lights to go off in your head… Who can eat one Dorito?” (76:08, 76:57)
• The “perfect storm”: modern life makes healthy eating harder—home cooking is down, convenience/junk food up, food is more processed than ever, even for children.

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Breaking the Cycle – Practical Solutions

• Emphasis on Whole, Low-Carb Foods:

  • “Turn the white stuff green”—swap refined carbs for vegetables.
  • “Increase the protein”—scrambled eggs, mince, fish as fast, satisfying staples (71:15).

• Lifestyle, Not A ‘Diet’:

  • “A diet is a thing you are on and will come off... This is a lifestyle. It's how you live your life.” (65:52)

• Personalization:

  • Use of continuous glucose monitors for real-time feedback (69:44).
  • Planning, motivation, and support are critical—environment (food in the house), company, and honest self-reflection are key.

• Addiction Requires Different Tools:

  • For some, full abstinence from trigger foods is the only viable route.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Blame and Shame:
  “It's really bad for people's self esteem to believe that they're... an inevitable consequence of their lack of discipline, because I think there are some other major factors.” (04:01, Dr. Unwin)

• On Junk Food Addiction:
  “If you're addicted to biscuits... if I feel a bit stressed... the answer is always that thing.” (48:54, Dr. Unwin)

• On Public Health Failure:
  “We have a system, in my opinion, that makes money out of you while it makes you fat and then makes money out of you through the medication. As I merely control what's wrong instead of sorting it.” (57:20, Dr. Unwin)

• On Empowering Patients:
  “You are an expert in yourself and you're in charge of your future, because it is your future. So I'm not going to bully you, okay? But I'm giving you the choices.” (09:03, Dr. Unwin)

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Practical Takeaways & Calls to Action

• How to Assess Your Risk:

  • Measure your waist at its widest—should be less than half your height.
  • Consider a Hemoglobin A1C blood test.

• First Steps:

  • Change the composition of your fridge and home environment.
  • Cook meals yourself.
  • Seek out resources like the Freshwell app, Public Health Collaboration, and Dr. Unwin’s wife’s book Fork in the Road.

• Long-Term Change:

  • See lifestyle, not weight loss, as the goal.
  • Address the potential for food addiction seriously—self-awareness, support, and sometimes abstinence from triggers needed.
  • Plan for challenges (Christmas, holidays) and be curious about setbacks.

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Recommended Resources

• Follow Dr. David Unwin: Twitter @lowcarbGP
• Freshwell App: Free app for low-carb advice and tracking
• Public Health Collaboration: phcuk.org – diet sheets, recipes, and resources
• Book: Fork in the Road by Dr. Jen Unwin (Amazon/Kindle – all proceeds to charity)

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Timeline of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |---------------|------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00 | Junk food addiction & industry tactics | | 04:01 | Dangers of blaming personal willpower | | 07:00 | Why body composition matters for future health | | 13:24 | Dr. Unwin’s career turning point—learning from patients | | 20:11 | Collaborative, community interventions (group consultations)| | 25:04 | Diabetes epidemic—10x rise in 40 years | | 27:42 | Practical: Waist-to-height ratio & risk assessment | | 36:15 | Fatty liver and the “silent scream” | | 41:29 | Fat jabs: benefits and dangers, lack of informed consent | | 46:30, 51:00 | Food addiction as the new public health battlefront | | 55:11 | Institutional denial and fight for recognition | | 65:52 | Shift from dieting to lifestyle change | | 71:15 | “Turn the white stuff green” – practical eating advice | | 76:08 | Food industry’s push for the “bliss point” | | 92:58 | Wrapping up: challenge to Peter and practical commitments |

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Tone & Style

• Conversational, personal, and often humorous: Dr. Unwin and Peter are frank and use themselves as examples, making it relatable and compassionate.
• Science-based but accessible: Ideas are made real with memorable stories and practical advice.
• Empowering, collaborative, and non-judgmental: The focus is on equipping listeners to take control in a rigged system.

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Final Words

Dr. Unwin leaves listeners with the hope—and evidence—that it is possible to reverse type 2 diabetes and reclaim health, but the system, environment, and culture are stacked against us. Awareness, honesty, curiosity, and support are the essential tools for change.

“What if today was the fattest you're gonna be? Take a private photo of yourself, honestly... And that would help motivate you. Then if you felt the Doritos are calling to me, you get out your photo and think, that is not me.” (97:17)

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Peter and Dr. Unwin commit to a six-month follow-up to see if these insights can translate into real transformation—not just for Peter, but for anyone ready to break the cycle.

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For more resources and to follow the journey, see show notes and connect with Dr. David Unwin and the Public Health Collaboration.

Transcript

[Dr. David Unwin]

The choices you make with every meal you eat is helping choose your future. There is research to show that 14% of the adult population is now addicted to junk food. It affects how your brain is wired. It is terrible. It was well documented, I think by the New York Times. So they have laboratories and they're looking for the bliss point. So when they're making biscuits or whatever, they have volunteers go in, some of whom get head scans and they're looking for what gets those little lights to go off in your head. What is the bliss point? We have a system, in my opinion, that makes money out of you while it makes you fat and then makes money out of you through the medication. As I merely control what's wrong instead of sorting it.

[Peter]

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[Dr. David Unwin]

Thank you.

[Peter]

I can't remember who recommended you to me. If somebody recommended you and said you cover too much politics, you need to get into some other subjects. And I highly recommend getting David Unwin on the show. So I did my research and, and I think it was for two reasons. I think one, yeah, I think you're fascinating and a good person to talk to, be good for the audience. I think they were also thinking of what I've got going on here.

[Dr. David Unwin]

I was just looking at your tummy there and thinking maybe, maybe we could do something about that.

[Peter]

I'm a. I'm a bit overweight, David. I. So I once got. Got into really good shape running every day, got down to about 12 and a half stone. There's a time when I was vegan and I know you're not a fan of that, but I was very healthy and then I put my back out and I slowly just got bigger and bigger over the last seven years.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Do you. There's a little thing there that could be wrong. Do you believe that the lack of exercise is why you are larger now. Is that a belief that you have?

[Peter]

No, I think it's diet.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Thank you.

[Peter]

Yeah, I think it's a mixture of lifestyle and diet. Mainly my lifestyle so busy that I don't plan. Plan my meals. So when I got into good shape when I was a vegan, I took a year off work.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah.

[Peter]

So I made every meal fresh. Now it's like today we had a bit big bagel at lunchtime and we're rushing around.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Sad. Yeah.

[Peter]

But I know it's completely down to personal. All of this is down to personal discipline.

[Dr. David Unwin]

You know, I dispute that as well. I think we talk far too much about, you know, because if it's down to personal discipline, how does that feel for you? You know, does this mean you're lazy? Does it mean you lack discipline? And if that is so, how is that for all the listeners that are overweight? Because my message is not that you lack willpower, that you're somehow weak. I think that is almost a dangerous statement. And it's really bad for people's self esteem to believe that there's some kind of an inevitable consequence of their lack of discipline, because I think there are some other major factors. We're getting ahead of ourselves here, the.

[Peter]

Choices around us, isn't it?

[Dr. David Unwin]

It is the choices around us. But we'll come back to this. But I absolutely believe that many junk foods are addictive. And so, you know, if you think about somebody with nicotine or alcohol, the choices they make, it's something way beyond weakness of spirit, isn't it?

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Unwin]

And what if. So if something like nicotine or alcohol, what if those factors were similar for food? And what if your food choices were also governed by a possible addiction? Because if that was true, that would be another explanation why so many people in the UK have a big tummy and high blood pressure and all of the other things that come with being overweight. And that would be a very different thing. So you touched on politics. And I think one of the things about politics is they like to think, well, it's all down to individual freedoms. You should all eat what you like. And that's great because they can just wash their hands of you now because it's all up to you. But, but what if there was if, if, if junk food addiction did exist and it was serious and many people were eating without the ability to control what they're eating? That's something far more serious.

[Peter]

Okay, fair. Okay.

[Dr. David Unwin]

So there we are.

[Peter]

Well, look, I know it's within my control because I've done it before.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Good.

[Peter]

And I know it's a combination of the choices I make.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yes.

[Peter]

With the options in front of me.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yes.

[Peter]

That I don't always make the best choice. We. We will come to that. Let's go. Yeah, let's go back a step. And I'll use my. Myself as the. The patient for this. I'm 46.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yes.

[Peter]

I am probably 16 stone. I don't know what that is in kilos. I. I know when I was 12 and a half stone, I was. I felt good, look good, could wear smaller clothes.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah.

[Peter]

But lots of parts of my lifestyle were better. Sleeping better, all these parts. But I am 46, and every year that ticks over. I think it becomes more important. It becomes more aware to me. I need to be thinking about these things. So why should people care about this?

[Dr. David Unwin]

Wow. Because the choices you make with every meal you eat is helping choose your future. So as you sit there right now, I can see with my experience as a doctor, I've looked after the same population of 10,000 people for 40 years. I have seen people like you grow older. And I know there's a range of possibilities, and some of those make me sad. And that's why I do this now, because I think how much better that I speak to you now and say, you could be amazing. You could be magnificent. You could be so healthy and strong, but equally, you know, with a bigger belly brings with it an increased risk of 8 cancers. Did you know that?

[Peter]

I didn't. I assumed cancer, but I didn't know.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Eight cancer, eight forms. Colorectal is. I've seen colorectal cancer going up and up in my practice, and it's occurring at a younger age, and it's linked to a big belly. The other thing is high blood pressure, which you may not have yet, but it. It'll probably come. My personal passion is preventing type 2 diabetes, and that starts with a big belly. So you see, you. You have a spectrum of futures that really interest me. And being a doctor is about making a difference. That's. It's. It's like being a magician, because I sit in front of people like you, and sometimes the magic really works. You wouldn't believe what I see in clinic after clinic. People choosing a better future. And I think that diet has a massive part to play, but you have to want a better future. Motivation is absolutely key. And then support and information. And so I often say to people, it often comes about that somebody comes in, and if I did your blood pressure now, it might be Raised a little. You're 16 stone, that wouldn't surprise me. And then you'd have a choice. Only normally or nearly never, would you be given that choice? So my. If I found that you were maybe pre diabetes, or if I found your blood pressure was up, I'd be saying, right, this is really interesting. We've got a choice today. Would you be interested in improving your lifestyle or shall we consider starting lifelong medication? Which would you rather? Should we start drugs today or are you interested in my ideas around losing weight, getting fit? Which do you want to do?

[Peter]

I want that second option, of course.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Because you're an intelligent person and this is what I've discovered with my patients. So for 12 years, whenever this has come up. So it could be a weight problem, it could be blood pressure, it could be diabetes. I'm saying to people, well, I'm using a collaborative approach, so that this is. You are an expert in yourself and you're in charge of your future, because it is your future. So I'm not gonna bully you, okay? But I'm giving you the choices. And I find that for sort of blokey blokes like you, that goes down really well because you quite like to be free of choice. And what has happened within my practice is astonishing. So we save, we've saved so far. So I started this approach in 2013 and last time I calculated it, we've saved £370,000 on the diabetes drug budget alone. Because if with person after person you say, you know, do you want lifestyle or long term medication? And if most patients say to me, just like you, well, I keep saving. And those savings are like standing orders, aren't they? Because every time I start somebody on lifelong medication, that's a standing order against the treasury. So that these savings mount up startlingly. And now I'm at somewhere around 370,000 on diabetes alone. But I'm also saving with blood pressure. I've written papers on all of these things.

[Peter]

Can I ask, do you work privately or you work in a hospital?

[Dr. David Unwin]

Not at all. No. My credibility absolutely rests on. I'm an NHS GP doing 10 minute appointments and I'm proof of concept of lifestyle medicine, because I'm doing it. These people know I never take on private patients. I won't do it because it's kind of bad for me.

[Peter]

But that's not. You're not, you're not going to be the standard NHS gp.

[Dr. David Unwin]

No, but increasingly so. I'm a fellow of the British Society of Lifestyle Medicine and those are hundreds of doctors Interested in this approach because, you know, if you could just imagine my life so up Until I was 55, this conversation would have been so different. I would just use medication. I didn't believe that people were capable of lifestyle change. And so. Well, really. And why did that happen? I'm really, why did that happen? And it happened because my advice was rubbish. And do you know, I never had the humility to admit. So I blame patients because they're lazy, you know, and my least favorite patients were people who were overweight and with diabetes because I had a completely erroneous belief that they were lazy and weak willed. As we began this discussion, how shocking. Now, I am so sorry, because if you think about it, what was the common denominator behind all those failures? It was me. My advice was poor. I had some terrible advice. You know, I used to say to somebody about weight. I actually said things like, well, nobody fat came out of Belson. And I used to suggest the most horrendous diet. I'd say, right, I'm gonna put you on this diet. And it's. I think it was two pints of skim milk a day and a tablespoon of all bran and a vitamin tablet like, who can live on that? It was grotesque. And then when it didn't work, I thought, there you go. And I medicated people until I was 55 years old. And now I think so differently. And I am so sorry for what I did before then, using the medication and not believing in people like you, because surely that's the beginning of a relationship where you believe, try and believe the best in people, and they often surprise you and delight you.

[Peter]

But what happened at 55? What was the switch?

[Dr. David Unwin]

Oh, two. Two things. Two very clever women. One was we were paid at the time, maybe we still are, in part to check that our patients with diabetes were taking their medication. And the computer system keeps a kind of log of who's taking their drugs. And I knew that one of my patients wasn't taking her metformin, which is the usual drug for diabetes. And so what we used to do at the time was write a slightly aggressive letter saying, Dear Mrs. So and so. I'm a bit disappointed. I noticed maybe you're not taking your medication, which you know, is there for your health. Please, I've made you an appointment a week on Thursday. Please come and see me. Wow. Nothing prepared me for what was going to happen. This lady who I'd known for 10 years, well, and her husband and her family was hopping mad, she came in hopping Mad. And if there's one thing, you know, old doctors, you fear complaints. They're messy, they take time. And she was clearly going to put in a grievance against me. And the basis of this was, well, Dr. Amwin, for 10 years you've given me that Metformin and now you're gonna tell me off because I'm not taking it. But actually, when you do my blood test, you will find my blood sugar is completely normal because I have completely reversed my diabetes without your help. The reason I'm not taking the Metformin is I don't need it. When we did the blood test, she was correct. Her blood sugars were normal. She didn't need the Metformin. Then when that, that was a second appointment, she said, doctor, when I met you last time, you know, I was upset, really, because you didn't seem very curious about what I've done. And, you know, I'm wondering whether you're medically qualified. Because my problem as somebody with type 2 diabetes is basically sugar. And a schoolboy knows that starchy foods like bread, like potato, like rice and breakfast cereals all break down into loads of sugar. That's O level biology. Have you even got O level biology? I was scared, but she'd made an absolutely accurate point. I had never once. I might have mentioned sugar, but I never once mentioned starchy carbs. And that was one woman. So she had me really, really interested. And it turned out she was part of 40,000 people online putting their diabetes into remission, but being criticized and ridiculed by healthcare professionals across the uk. And I suddenly saw, this is a terrible, terrible injustice because these people were getting good results and doctors like me were shroud waving and say, well, you'll probably die because you're not taking the medication. Now we have to come to the second clever woman. That was a very clever woman. The second one was my wife. She is a consultant psychologist. So she specializes in behavior change. And it is her that knows a lot about the collaborative approach. Don't tell people off if you want them to change. You know, she said to me one day, so how's it going, David, with your approach? Because telling people off, how does that go? And the truth is, people go and never come back. You didn't come to me to be told off. It doesn't, you know, I've got to intrigue you. I have to motivate you. And Jen, my clever wife, taught me a great deal about that. And together, what happened over the next however many years it is since 2013. We've done it together, my wife and I, as a project for fun and to help. And I can't believe what's happened. I just can't believe that was me then and how different I am now and the influence that we have and the lives we have changed. You know, we were front page last week of the Daily Express.

[Peter]

There we go.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Which is like, who gets to be on the front page? The fall of the front page. I've been on the front page of the New Scientist that most of the news is all cooked up. In my opinion, the front pages are all cooked up. But if somebody like me gets on the front page, and that's weird and it doesn't happen easily.

[Peter]

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[Dr. David Unwin]

Oh, completely. And that's a really good question because I was like you, only older. So I had. I thought I just gained weight because of age.

[Peter]

See if you can find any old pictures of David Khan.

[Dr. David Unwin]

See if we can find. I was very careful. There were one or two, but I was very. What you actually do is suck your tummy in, don't you? And just at the top.

[Peter]

I used to get away with that. Now even sucking in, I've still got a belly sticking out.

[Dr. David Unwin]

So I think in common with very many people. So I, I had middle age spread, I was tired, I Lacked stamina. And I thought that was just age. In fact, for me, it was so bad, I was the senior partner of the practice, so I'm in charge. So at lunchtime, I would need a 20 minute sleep on my own doctor's couch. So you just press do not disturb. I'm the boss, nobody is to disturb. And I was fast asleep, but what would I do when I woke up? I'd need a strong coffee and a bar of milk chocolate. Okay. And biscuits. And, you know, where did that lead? And then my blood pressure went up, but I didn't want to be a patient, so I put my head in the sands and I just stopped. I stopped measuring my own blood pressure because I didn't want bad news. Yeah, it's like, how ridiculous. And I think if I can be that foolish, so can you.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Unwin]

I was a doctor with all I know and I had high blood pressure, but I was too, too busy to address it. Tomorrow, Tomorrow. But then. So a little bit more of the story. So I, I came up with the idea of this. This is the low carb approach. So you, instead of eating starchy carbs, you have more protein and more green veggies. And I thought, well, how about we do this for some of the patients, particularly younger people with pre diabetes, because we weren't doing anything for that population at all. We knew who they were because we were paid to maintain a register of people with pre diabetes. But how horrible is this? We knew who they were and did absolutely nothing. And I was really worried about the young people. So I said to the partners, right, I want to do this thing. And they said, we argued a lot because they said, you're not paid to do it, because we weren't. And they said, you know, we're not a charity, we can't, as a practice, do work that's just not remunerated. And I argued and fought. And then we come to that second clever woman, my wife, and she said, so, David, we're not going to do this exciting thing because we're not paid. And she looked me right in the eye and she said, david, how many cars do we have and are we short of something? And she said, I thought I'd married a doctor. Yeah, she's formidable. She didn't look it, but she's clever. She's a psychologist. Yeah, she knows. And. But then she said, right, David, we're going to do this for free. So we set up a group on a Monday night. Every Monday night, a nurse, a lovely nurse called Heather, said, I'd love to do this. I want to do something I believe in. I'll work for free. And my wife said, I'll work for free. And David, you're going to work for free. And we did them as group consultations and you know what? We're still doing them for free. So I did one last Wednesday night and it's fun and it's collaborative and now I've got a great many patient experts who will go on television for me, they will go on the media and also they're helping me coach other people with diabetes overweight. So you see what an adventure. And then it's led to many, many other enormous things, all of this.

[Peter]

So we're talking about type 2 diabetes.

[Dr. David Unwin]

We are, and it's very important. Nobody says diabetes anymore. It's people with type 2 diabetes. So they're not diabetics, they're people with type 2 diabetes. Type 1 is a completely separate subject and is not really my expertise. I am a. For your interest. I'm a Royal College of General Practitioners, clinical expert in diabetes, but my Expertise is type 2 diabetes and I try and stick where I know.

[Peter]

And so explain to me what is happening with type 2 diabetes when. When somebody is pre diabetic.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yes.

[Peter]

And then they become diabetic and then we'll talk about reversing. And how would I know, for example, if I'm pre diabetic?

[Dr. David Unwin]

Okay. Do you know, I'd rather. There's something else we must touch on before then. The context. So the context is not just an epidemic of type 2 diabetes, it's a pandemic.

[Peter]

Okay.

[Dr. David Unwin]

It's an absolute pandemic. All over the world, doctors like me are struggling to cope with a sheer number of people with type 2 diabetes. And I can illustrate this with my own practice. When I started, so I'm a GP north of Liverpool in Southport. When I started there, we audited Everybody with type 2 diabetes in the whole practice just a month after I joined them as a partner. And at that time, there were 56 individuals with type 2 diabetes in my practice. There are now about 600 and it's the same practice. So what we have.

[Peter]

Over what period was that?

[Dr. David Unwin]

That was 1986 to now.

[Peter]

86. 96. That's about 40 years.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah. So now I've got a question.

[Peter]

Yes.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Why do you think I have seen a tenfold increase in type 2 diabetes in my practice? Why do you think people have diabetes? What's the reason?

[Peter]

I think it's a change in dietary habits.

[Dr. David Unwin]

It is. Thank you. That's the. You get a thank you. That's the right answer. The wrong answer is like genetics and stuff like that, because you couldn't change the genetics of my patients in 40 years. And people believing that their genes mean that they're heavy or diabetic is a slightly doomy type thing, because then you think, well, I'm an inevitable consequence of my genes. Now, genes do play a part, but the environment is acting on genetic predisposition. And you're absolutely right. What I have seen. So I've seen a tenfold increase in type 2 diabetes in my own practice. And, you know, just think about what that means. That means amputation, that means blindness. That means a lot of unhappiness and great deal of suffering. And sometimes I'm signing death certificates. Think about that.

[Peter]

Yes.

[Dr. David Unwin]

How is it to go, you know, several times a week and see people you've known and sign the death certificates? It really affects you. It's tragic. What's come up.

[Peter]

How many people have. Okay. An estimated 6.3 million people are at an increased risk of type 2 diabetes in the UK. Based on blood sugar levels, we estimate that 1.3 million are currently living with type 2 diabetes but yet to be diagnosed.

[Dr. David Unwin]

They don't even know.

[Peter]

That means an estimated 12.1 million adults in the UK are living with diabetes or pre diabetes. They are huge numbers.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah.

[Peter]

So I could actually be.

[Dr. David Unwin]

You may. Now, there's something. Do you know, I'm so sorry, I haven't answered your question. I want to come back to something else. I want to come back to fatty liver. And so fatty liver is about a third of the whole of the developed world now, fatty liver. But before we come back to fatty liver, which is another pandemic, let me just answer your questions. So you were asking me about the diagnosis of prediabetes and diabetes and how you might know and how it might affect you. Having a big belly, in my opinion, is a real risk factor.

[Peter]

Okay.

[Dr. David Unwin]

And that's. I mean, one real way to. For listeners is your belly should be less than half your height. So if you put a piece of tape around your tummy, all right. And then doubled it, you should then be short. That piece of cotton should be shorter than you are.

[Peter]

So. And if it's on my belly.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah.

[Peter]

It's just less than three foot.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Right. So you might be bored, like, I don't know. But the other question for, for men is measuring your belly at its fattest. So a lot of blokes and I used to do this, hike the belly up and get your belt on underneath.

[Peter]

Yeah, I do that.

[Dr. David Unwin]

And, and you might tell me, here's a question, what size waist are your jeans?

[Peter]

My jeans are a 34 inch.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Right. Well, I would believe that your tummy is bigger than that because you're wearing.

[Peter]

Your jeans, feel it hanging over the top.

[Dr. David Unwin]

So I, I, you know, I'm a great one if I can, for scrupulous honesty and please do so if you're measuring your waist and you're going to do that, measure it at the fattest because who are you fooling if you tell me Your waist is 34, it's your health, not mine. And so waist to height ratio is a very good predictor of cardiovascular disease and many other things. And it's so simple.

[Peter]

36 inches would be three foot.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yes, it would.

[Peter]

And I mean 34 inch jeans with this over, so I'm probably nearer 40 something.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah. I mean, I've done this on hundreds and hundreds of patients and I always ask them what they think their waist is and then I say, I'll just measure your waist for you. And then that begins again. A curious. And then they, they've, there's a bit of reality there.

[Peter]

Yep.

[Dr. David Unwin]

And you know what I did all those years ago was I, I was king commuting it, wasn't I, I was not being honest and I had to start being honest about that. So just. So that's a simple thing. Keeping on track with pre diabetes and type 2 diabetes, you see waist to height ratio. As a doctor, I'm measuring how sugary is your blood and the blood test is called the hemoglobin A1C. That's the fancy name, but it's, that's the average sugariness of your blood in the preceding 120 days before you have the blood test. Okay. And that's so you can't cheat. So my mother, bless her, I have a remarkable mother, she's 89 and she would just not eat the donuts and the cakes on the day of the blood test when we used to just measure blood sugar, but now we've got cleverer than that. So if you think about this, if it's the average sugariness of your blood, well then it's no good giving up Mars bars today or yesterday because. I know, right? I know. So that's the hemoglobin A1C. And then just a few figures for you. If it's under 42, if the result comes in as under 42, that's officially normal. If it's between 42 and 48 you are, you have pre diabetes. If it's 48 or above you, you actually have type 2 diabetes and all sorts of things come from that.

[Peter]

Are there other symptoms that I.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yes, personally I found tiredness was the thing, kind of a lack of energy. So I was 55 and the sort of thing I remember is putting my feet up on the settee a lot, you know and I'd say I'm tired at the end of the day so I couldn't wait to get my feet up and if you'd said to me in the evening shall we go a walk or shall we whatever, I was tired.

[Peter]

Conor, what are our evenings like? He ends up falling asleep on the couch. Yeah, that was me about 8, 9 o'. Clock. I used to be able to work till midnight, 8, 9 o', clock, feed up. If we put a film on, I'm asleep within five minutes.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Five minutes, yeah, that was me completely. And I just put that down to age.

[Peter]

There is a lack of sleep involved as well. Sure. But whether I sleep or I don't sleep, it's the same every evening.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Pretty much, yeah. And what's in what I found very. Within a month I needed an hour's less sleep a night and I didn't need my lunchtime sleeps anymore and I started feeling more energetic. The thing I value most is the mental clarity that I have now. So the fog gone I did. Well, you don't know it's gone till it's gone. I didn't know I had mental fog or what that even meant and when patients tried to tell me, of course I wasn't even curious but that was, that was the thing that. And I tell you how it happened that blokes are a bit competitive, slightly, mildly, mildly competitive and the younger male partners, I could feel that mentally they were overtaking me in their mental stamina. It's a sense I had but after only two months I was as sharp as I'd been ever and it was wonderful. And since then that same sharpness has allowed me to. I've now published 30, at least 30 peer reviewed papers and I'd never written anything. It was beyond me to write things. I've done tv, radio, loads of things requiring concentration and now I can really concentrate, which I couldn't, I find.

[Peter]

So the mental fog is new. Yeah but most days from about now I am, I feel a tiredness through my body. Yes, it just exists all day long.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Let's discuss that. You know, I'm really enjoying this. So the model I would give you is, you are a marvelous dual fuel engine. You can burn two different fuels and your fuels are fat or sugar. However, one of the things with getting a bigger belly and some of the things with age for some people is your insulin, the hormone that regulates blood sugar, may not be working quite as well. And that means if that happens in order to regulate your blood sugar. So insulin reduces blood sugar, it controls it. But if it's not working as well, your only alternative is to produce more insulin, which is just naturally. How you still have a normal blood sugar, but that has some disadvantages. So insulin, one thing, think about. Here's another question. Would you agree that insulin sorts out a high blood sugar? So if you eat a Mars bar, your blood sugar goes up, Insulin is going to get rid of that spike of blood sugar. Would you agree with that?

[Peter]

I don't really know, but I'm gonna nod and think so. So only because I know of.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Well, people with type 1 diabetes are using insulin, aren't they, to get rid of their blood sugar and sometimes they're.

[Peter]

Having a Mars bar.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yes. Yeah. So the question is if it's very important. A raised blood sugar damages your arteries in about six hours. So nature gives you insulin to protect your arteries from a raised blood sugar. Right. What does the insulin do with that sugar? There's a question for you.

[Peter]

Turns into fat.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Correct. Well done.

[Peter]

Find somewhere to hide it.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah, that's your belly right there.

[Peter]

But it's not just the belly, is it?

[Dr. David Unwin]

No, it's your liver. It's particularly the liver and your belly. And that brings me to the point that I wanted to come back to fatty liver. So we had a weird thing in the practice that obviously we do hundreds and hundreds of blood tests and we were finding that the liver function of at least a third of all the patients always came back wrong. And it changed. It wasn't when I was a young doctor, but all the liver function came back wrong and I had no idea why. But then when we started doing ultrasound scans on the liver, the liver was echo bright, full of fat. Fatty liver. I didn't even know that mattered. So I used to say to patients, well, you know, do a bit more exercise and, well, you know, I was fudging it. I didn't understand what is happening is the fatty liver. So what's happening there is you, your insulin isn't working as well. You're beginning to lay down fat in your belly and your liver, but the fat in your liver interferes with the good work of insulin, and your insulin doesn't work as well becomes a flywheel. Yes. Yeah, you can see. And there's another thing that happens is you start laying down fat in your pancreas gland, the very gland that's trying hard to give you enough insulin. And then the whole system collapses after about 10 years. There's a Prof. Roy Taylor has the most wonderful, wonderful quote. He's a very famous professor of medicine at Newcastle University, and he explains there's a long, silent scream from your liver 10 years before you actually become diabetic and people are not listening. And liver function is important and your big belly is important, and fatty liver is a third of everybody you know. It's a third of your friends, of your family, of everybody we know. And increasingly it's children. So I'm now seeing. I am seeing type 2 diabetes in people under 20. That was completely unknown when I was a young doctor. We called it maturity onset diabetes. It was supposed to be old people. And when I was, in 1986, we didn't have a single patient under 55 or 60 with diabetes. And the youngest I've got now is 12 years old. This is how serious. This is why I'm so passionate and aggressive about this, because it's very serious. And people's lives can be impacted really badly by this and they've no idea what's doing it. And it's the food supply.

[Peter]

Are there symptoms of fatty liver I would be aware of?

[Dr. David Unwin]

Not really, apart from possibly the tiredness and the bigger belly. That's what I had. And also this, this raised insulin. So if your insulin isn't working as well, then the. The way you compensate is by producing more insulin, which is. Has a name, hyperinsulinemia. It's a posh name for that. But actually a high insulin level tends to cause high blood pressure. So it's one of the causes. Right. Of high blood pressure. And I've written a paper, people always wonder about that. But We've known since 1927 that insulin is one of the major causes of high blood pressure. And I've published a paper on it. It's open access if you look me up on Google. It's a paper with Professor Brady and Scott Murray and my own name. And there's a paper on blood pressure there for anybody that's interested.

[Peter]

So this is really a public health crisis.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Massive. It's internationally. I don't go to any country that's not facing a crisis. Either they're struggling to afford the drugs for diabetes or insurance companies are struggling. So it might be a country that's struggling to pay for the drugs, or insurance companies are really struggling to pay for the drugs. Or some countries, like India, what happens there is, you know, I don't know. Have you got a dad?

[Peter]

Yes.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Right. Well, what happens there is, you know, you love your dad. And the doctor in India says, well, your dad needs these expensive medications to keep him alive. And you say, but I haven't got much money. And he said, well, you'll have to borrow the money or you mortgage yourself to keep your dad alive, which you would just do. Which you would do. And you have. How. How terrible is that? When maybe dad just needs to eat less rice. Maybe you, you know, but there's a lot more money in dad using insulin or drugs. And I see this as an international thing. And how. We're not really looking at. Seriously, we're not looking at the cause. Why. How is the answer to the epidemic of type 2 diabetes or obesity the fat jabs? Or, you know, how is that the answer if we're not looking at the true cause?

[Peter]

What do you think of those fat jabs, your zempics?

[Dr. David Unwin]

That would be a good hour. I've done some lecturing on this and written, I think, for the Telegraph and the Daily Express on it. Okay.

[Peter]

Is it a sticking plaster?

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yes. I mean, it helps people. It helps people. And I would say for people who are really addicted, if you cannot give up bread, it might help you do that. But it's a window of opportunity to learn to eat better. But, you know, let's not forget in the British Medical Journal it was published that 82 people have died associated with these jabs. Did you know that?

[Peter]

I did not know that.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Exactly. So, so many things upset me in the modern world. So, you know, if we, if we're being grown ups, I'm telling you the pros and cons of that. You know, you come to me, say, I wondered about the fat jabs, and we should discuss the pros and cons, shouldn't we?

[Peter]

Yeah, of course, of course.

[Dr. David Unwin]

You say, and you would say informed consent was right, that you have, before you do this, injecting yourself. And that is not what's happening. You'd never even heard that 82 people have died. I've had a patient in intensive care very, very ill.

[Peter]

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[Dr. David Unwin]

Again, shocking.

[Peter]

Shocking.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Absolutely horrifies me because again, it speaks to the belief that overweight people are lazy or whatever and then you're gonna medicate them to solve them. It's callous and inhumane and wrong and it medicalizes those people. So, yes, I do actually use the injections very carefully, but I try a low carb diet first. And I have published a paper with Tro Colladian, who's an American, passionate doctor like me, and we got using the low carb diet better results for patients with diet than you get with using the fat jabs. So we beat them at one year. So the they both work and I have patients who use the jabs and they benefit. But you need to have informed consent. You need to know what you're doing. Now at the moment I can only. You can only have them legally for two years. So what are you going to do after the two years? Think it through. What will happen to you? Yeah, the evidence is you regain the weight. The other thing, really, key thing, is sort of why One of the recurring themes for me is being curious about why are people ill? What's the true problem? Because if we, as a public health thing, if we don't understand the true problem, you know, then are the, you know, the fat jabs, is that going to help? How's that going to go? Are we going to. How can, you know, preventing diabetes, type 2 diabetes, I think would be good. Can that be done with drugs? No, not really. Also, are we going to use these jabs on young people? Do we know what happens long term? I have no idea. Would you know, you've got a son how would you feel about us giving him an injection? How old is he, your son?

[Peter]

21.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Right. He's 21. You love him and how.

[Peter]

He's all right, he's all right.

[Dr. David Unwin]

But shall we do an experiment? Should he be an experiment? Shall we medicate him or inject him? When you have no idea. And yet we are. Yeah.

[Peter]

No.

[Dr. David Unwin]

You can go to an online pharmacist and get these drugs. I have patients that tell me afterwards. I didn't tell you, Dr. Owen, but I went online and you know, I've been using this.

[Peter]

I completed the form on Boots.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Did you?

[Peter]

But it wasn't a zempic, it was.

[Dr. David Unwin]

One of the others. I mean. Yeah.

[Peter]

And. And it got to the.

[Dr. David Unwin]

And I think I fascinate. So you thought about. Well, I thought you do that.

[Peter]

I was just. Because Quick Fix exactly. Deals with my like. So for context and background.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yes.

[Peter]

I have a background of addiction and I always seem to have addictions in my life, but I have good and bad ones. So I've had a running addiction.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yes.

[Peter]

Where I had to run every day.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yes.

[Peter]

Or it can be a business addiction or it can be nicotine. I've always got. Seem to have addictions. I can't break. And I have good and bad ones.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Right, this is. I've got to interrupt because this is so exciting because I didn't know that. Did you know that my very, very clever wife is a world expert on food addiction? She's probably. I would say she is the world expert on food addiction.

[Peter]

To get her in here, as well you should.

[Dr. David Unwin]

And tomorrow. The reason I'm in London is. So my wife has a charity which his son knows all about that I told him about the chc and we are running an international conference today in the Royal College of General Practitioners, starts tomorrow. And we are flying in the cleverest people in the world on the subject of ultra processed food addiction. Because there is. That's what's going on tomorrow.

[Peter]

Wow.

[Dr. David Unwin]

And we've raised £50,000 of charitable money to pay to get these clever people in. And there's two days. Maybe you should come because I think you've.

[Peter]

You know, we have. We have. We have more interviews tomorrow.

[Dr. David Unwin]

What a pity. There's Friday too.

[Peter]

What will the. Will the presentations go online?

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yes, yes, they're being recorded. But can we just touch on. So this is part of my. Of what I learned. So initially people did really well. People like you can do very well and I could get you down, no trouble. Down to your 12 and a half stone. I know how to do it.

[Peter]

Okay.

[Dr. David Unwin]

But then what would happen is you'd have Christmas, or you'd go on a holiday, or you'd have an argument with your son, and that would be the excuse to lose control. And you would start on the bread and the junk and you'd lose it. And this happened with patience. Where. Here's the thing. When intelligent people like you do stupid stuff, what does it mean?

[Peter]

We can all do it.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah. Number one. But maybe it's addiction.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Because intelligent people have problems with drugs. They are not a heroin addict to annoy me. They're not doing it for a reason. People with an alcohol problem, there's no gain. It's a very sad thing for them. And they come to me for help, and that is really rough. Or nicotine. So when intelligent people do stuff they know can harm their health, think about addiction. My wife would tell you that 14% of the population is now addicted to junk food. It may be bread, it could be pizza, it could be crisps. You will have. If I had longer with you, I could find out what they are. You know already.

[Peter]

Oh, I know them, you know.

[Dr. David Unwin]

And if you think. Does the idea of junk food addiction, does that seem unreasonable to you or from your experience of life?

[Peter]

See, it's funny, having been through various addictions, I've never thought I actually have a junk food addiction. I just think I take shortcuts for meals.

[Dr. David Unwin]

No, that's not true. You're not being truthful.

[Peter]

No, I. I'm. I am being truthful. It's like today we do an interview and there's another one. The guys pop out and they get me a baby.

[Dr. David Unwin]

I agree, but that's your belief. But underlying it is quite likely some features of addiction. Because if you're addicted to something, the answer is always that thing. So if you're addicted to biscuits, and I feel a bit stressed, which I was. So for me, why was I eating milk chocolate? Why did I eat so many Jaffa Cakes to a point where I ruin my health? I believed I was stressed. I believed that I couldn't plan for meals and that I was busy and I lacked energy. Those were my beliefs. But behind those beliefs was something far more sinister. And it wasn't until I tried to give them up. Do you know, it took me a year to properly give up biscuits? A year. And my wife kept saying, what is wrong with you? I remember one time I had. We did our own on call at night and somebody rang me in the middle of the night, and my dad's Collapsed. Please come right now. My wife found me in the kitchen eating biscuits. She said, why are you not in your car? And my response to stress, kind of, before I could go, was eating these biscuits. And that was addiction. Only I didn't spot it because I justified it myself. Anyway, 14%. There is research to show 14% of the adult population is now addicted to junk food. It affects how your brain is wired. Get my wife on, she'd explain all this to you. It's to do with dopamine, serotonin, all these things.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Unwin]

And it gives you. So what you get from the junk food is a very brief comfort, but it doesn't last long. And then gradually you need more and more of that. And that was me with the biscuits. So why did I eat the biscuits? Because it just gave me that little tiny fix of energy that I needed to face a very difficult situation. But what I hadn't realized was I needed biscuits to face a difficult situation, whereas 10 years previously, I didn't. And that is how addiction. That's the hook.

[Peter]

It's no different from alcohol. Like, oh, I need a drink.

[Dr. David Unwin]

None at all. Exactly. Or cigarettes. I remember my father was hopelessly addicted to. Well, to alcohol to an extent, but cigarettes. And he had to smoke so much to get through a difficult day. And he couldn't function. He had a heart attack and came off cigarettes. But he was a monster to live with because he was. Without his fakes. He couldn't function. So this I'm now really interested because in. In junk food addiction. Because it's part of why. Why are we in this fix? Why are our young people obese? Why are, you know, what's going wrong with society? Because, you know, when you were young, I would imagine that children with a weight problem were quite rare.

[Peter]

Yeah. And also, look, every meal we had, my mum would cook the five of us.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah.

[Peter]

And we'd have that meal and it would be meat and veg. It would be, I don't know, a roast on a Sunday. But now our lifestyles have changed and I would say three of our. At least three of our meals a week, maybe four.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yes.

[Peter]

Is either a takeaway or us going out to dinner.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yes.

[Peter]

And going out to dinner is still. It's not as bad as a, you know, ordering a pizza, but it's still kind of a takeaway. There's a luxury there. There's a drink, you have a dessert.

[Dr. David Unwin]

And I think the other thing, when we were young, snacking was frowned upon. My mother would say, you're going to Spoil your tea.

[Peter]

Yes.

[Dr. David Unwin]

And so she wouldn't let me snack. We were quite. We didn't. I was only allowed sweets on a Friday night. So I remember after school we went via the post office. That was once a week. That was it.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Fast forward. You. I don't know. You're too young to have grandchildren yet, but maybe. Work in progress, young man. Work in progress.

[Peter]

I'm ready.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah. But what you'll find when you go to school now is you'll see a third of the children are not what you saw. They're overweight. And what with children, we reward them, don't we? With chocolate bars, with biscuits. Well done. Have a bun. It's Christmas. Have this, it's Easter. Have that. You did well in school today. And psychologically, if you wanted to train a dog, what would you do?

[Peter]

Treats.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Exactly. Pavlov's dogs. Only now it's Pavlos children. Think about that. It's so serious. And so my wife and I have set up two charities. The first one is the Public Health Collaboration, where we are worried about the quality of the advice around public health. That's our Public health collaboration charity. So we have international conferences, there's lots of information. So there's two. That's the first one. What is the quality of the advice that you get if you go online or if you question a healthcare professional, do you come away from it knowing what to do? Second point is, the second charity is the food addiction charity. Hence the thing tomorrow, where at the moment. Here's the thing. So at the moment, in the world, first of all, a question. Would you say that food addiction seems reasonable to you? That there are people in the world eating that know it's harming their health? Is that reasonable?

[Peter]

Well, yes, because I will eat things that I know harm my health.

[Dr. David Unwin]

So it's reasonable that food addiction to you as a construct, as an idea, sounds kind of worse, probably. Right. And you maybe eat stuff you shouldn't.

[Peter]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Well, here's a surprise for you. So let's think about the World Health Organization and addiction, or indeed, in my own practice. So if you come to me with a nicotine addiction, I can offer you help. Alcohol, I can help you. Drugs, I can help you. Food addiction, according to the World Health Organization, does not exist. Therefore you cannot get help. And in fact, you've just invented it, right? Against this, against this is the fact, if you come to me with gambling addiction, where there isn't even a substance, the World Health Organization agree that gambling addiction exists. So my wife is Fighting the World Health Organization. That's what this conference is about. She's publishing, she's got now a consensus on what is food addiction. And she's lobbying the World Health Organization. It exists.

[Peter]

That seems kind of insane that she.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Has to do that. You would think so.

[Peter]

You would have thought if it's the health organization of the world, they would already be on top of the world.

[Dr. David Unwin]

You would think that, wouldn't you? And particularly now when we're saying the fat jabs and you know, and obesity is such a problem and what. So in clinical practice, do you know, just about nobody's surprised when I say, do you think you could be addicted to some of these foods? Are you eating them despite knowing it's harmful? And they go, yep. And yet the World Health Organization are going, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but.

[Peter]

Does that, does that mean you don't trust the World Health Organization?

[Dr. David Unwin]

Are they corrupted now? That's a big thing. I don't know. I shouldn't say what I don't know. But I dare say there are reasonably powerful people who do not want ultra processed food addiction to be acknowledged.

[Peter]

Well, if you are a manufacturer of a fat jab.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah.

[Peter]

And making billions of pounds, dollars selling the fat jab, if you don't have a supply of fat people, you don't have a market.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Exactly. So, and again, there's supermarkets and so on and so forth that we have a system which. It's really funny, it makes money out of you. This is sounds awful really, but we have a system, in my opinion, that makes money out of you while it makes you fat and then makes money out of you through the medication. As I merely control what's wrong instead of sorting it.

[Peter]

We just, we just went out to Ibiza on holiday as a family.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah.

[Peter]

And there was a little supermarket near us, equivalent size to say a Tesco's local.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah.

[Peter]

And they had a butcher in there. Yes. With two butchers working on it. They had a fishmonger in there. They had endless fresh fruit and veg. But I looked at the butcher and the, the fishmonger. I thought we used to have a butcher and a fishmonger at Sainsbury's. And when I say Sainsbury's, I'm on about the big superstore.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yes. Yeah.

[Peter]

They don't even have the butcher or the fishmonger anymore. They have, they have it packaged on the shelves.

[Dr. David Unwin]

But it's not the same.

[Peter]

It's not the same.

[Dr. David Unwin]

I, I think, but, but.

[Peter]

So you can add to that because I was like, huh, look at this, Connor.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Here they have quality food. Look at the quality food.

[Peter]

But I think there's another psychological element there in that. You would go to the counter, you would look at the big slab of meat and say, I want three ribeyes and I want some salmon. But if you're now going to a cabinet and you're buying a packed ribeye, you're conditioned that everything you buy is in a package. So there's like a psychological change there.

[Dr. David Unwin]

There are many, many different factors behind this. Many, many. But they've all led in one way, which is, you know, the supermarket is very convenient if the food has a long shelf life. Yes, it's very. And then if you were manual, if I wanted to make money, what the way to make money out of making food is, you want to shell a long shelf life to please the supermarket. You want to package it so you can stack it. You also want to use cheap ingredients. What are cheap ingredients? Well, water's a cheap ingredient, so stick some of that in there like they do with the bacon. But also sugar is a very cheap ingredient.

[Peter]

Yes.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Carbohydrate. So wheat flour is very cheap. So protein is never cheap. And so one of the things I'd say is I see a lot of people not getting enough protein. And yet protein is how your son's going to be ripped, isn't it? How do. How do you make muscle without eating protein? And many young people, they're having so much sugary drinks, crisps that they're not actually getting much protein. If you think so they could have breakfast cereals before you go to school. Sugary. And they're like sweets, aren't they, those breakfast cereals?

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Croissants, crumbles. Then when you get to school, you might have it. They sometimes have a. A snack and then mid morning, a snack. What's your lunch? Sandwiches, that kind of thing, Crisps. So you've had sugar with your sugar with your sugar.

[Peter]

It's just sugar all day long.

[Dr. David Unwin]

And then when you get home, your mum's busy because she's working. So there's your pizza and chips, there's your Domino's.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Unwin]

So you just had just sugar all day. Where was the protein? Where was the green veg? And, of course, children will, if you give them an opportunity, as you know, with your own kids, they will just eat crap.

[Peter]

Mm.

[Dr. David Unwin]

And it re. You know, your mother disciplined you a little, didn't she? And I bet you weren't allowed your pudding till you'd had your first or my father was just say, clearly you're not hungry, David, so no second calls.

[Peter]

Well, there's been this weird switch as well, in that we didn't have a lot of money, so we couldn't afford to have cupboards full of snacks and sweets.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yes.

[Peter]

You know, there might be some biscuits. Have a biscuit. When I go home from school. But, you know, my mum had to plan to cook.

[Dr. David Unwin]

My mother too.

[Peter]

Yeah. So she had to plan to cook seven dinners over the week for five people and breakfast. And we probably had cereal at that time, but, but she had to plan for that. It's flipped now. Some people can't afford to cook seven meals from fresh ingredients or they feel like they can't.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yes.

[Peter]

And they feel like there's cheaper options which are maybe processed.

[Dr. David Unwin]

It's a trap. And so, funnily enough, we've investigated this with my patients because I've done this now so many times. And you can do low carb cheaply, but you do require some cooking skills. Although, let's think about beef burgers. Have you ever made a beef burger?

[Peter]

What, from fresh mint?

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah.

[Peter]

For mince? Yeah, I have, yeah.

[Dr. David Unwin]

All you have to do, how fat? How you know, it's two minutes while you do that and stick it in the pan. That's fast food, isn't it? Mince is cheap. So you could do beef burgers, then you could get frozen beans and add some butter to them.

[Peter]

So it's all doable.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yes. I've, I've.

[Peter]

We're making excuses.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Well, I don't think excuses is right. I, I, I think we've been very slowly funneled over the years through advertising, through many things to forget some very important stuff about. Like, here's a thought, really. The most important things in our lives are our children. They are. Maybe they are.

[Peter]

He's all right.

[Dr. David Unwin]

He's all right. But, you know.

[Peter]

Yes.

[Dr. David Unwin]

So you know just the thing. So say you had a really important car, a very, very valuable car, you'd kind of care about the fuel, wouldn't you? You wouldn't port rubbish fuel in something worth a hundred thousand pounds. If the, if the person told you, you know, this particular car requires good fuel and you'll have to pay more. You just do it.

[Peter]

You just do it.

[Dr. David Unwin]

But have you thought about your son in that way? Because what fuels him, he is what he has eaten, and really, so the quality of what he eats is one of the major influences on who he will become, you know, and yet we don't think like that. Do we? And so you're probably in the mindset of the odd treat is okay. But how often is a treat an odd treat? My mother believed it was once a week.

[Peter]

Well, it's just not odd anymore.

[Dr. David Unwin]

No, it's all day. And is this loving? Is it caring? You know, what are we doing? And I used to, I remember with my own children, it was just. I didn't think about it. And one of my children ended up being quite heavy. And I realized now I had done that. I had done it as a child with the sugary breakfast cereals. I remember Ribena, she used to love Ribena and she was mad because she said, you will never make it strong enough. Dad, you're so mean. So I started making it stronger. But what is strong Ribena? It's sugar. And I never thought, I never thought about my responsibility in terms of nutrition to the most important people in my life. Never once occurred to me. And I'm a doctor. What's my excuse?

[Peter]

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[Dr. David Unwin]

Yes.

[Peter]

And we know enough now.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yes.

[Peter]

I mean, you know enough now. So if you're advising somebody right now, you're advising me.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah.

[Peter]

And I say because I don't think the goal is to lose weight. I think the goal is to change your lifestyle. If it's to lose weight, once you hit a spot, you can come back.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Thank you.

[Peter]

It's a permanent lifestyle change.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Right? Yeah. The mindset is. One of my patients explained this so well. So I'll tell you what she said. She said a diet is a thing you are on and will come off a diet is a thing you're doing to look good for your holiday. And this lady told me, she said, this is a lifestyle. It's how you live your life. And you have to accept that. But with it comes lots of good stuff. So will I ever eat Christmas cake ever again? No, I won't. I actually have type 2 diabetes. I didn't know that I had.

[Peter]

So do you not have any little treats here or there?

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yes, but they're low carb treats.

[Peter]

Okay.

[Dr. David Unwin]

So you see, I. We have learned. So we've also helped write eight recipe books.

[Peter]

Amazing.

[Dr. David Unwin]

So with a really lovely London chef called the Caldesis. And we helped Giancarlo reverse his diabetes. And he was a very heavy Italian chef on pasta and pizza and all that in Marylebone, near here. And he contacted me out of the blue and said, what you do has reversed my diabetes. I don't think you understand food like I do. Let's do a partnership. And I understand food. And we've written, I've loved. What fun to go out to the world of medicine into doing a recipe book. We've done eight and so there are. You can get. So we can make. So I have eight grandchildren. They're all being brought up low carb from babies. So we can do low carb cakes. My wife can make a low carb Christmas pudding. We can do Christmas parties. All low carb. We've learned how to do it.

[Peter]

But if you're type 2 diabetic. I understand. Or I was.

[Dr. David Unwin]

I used to say, mine's in remission. So.

[Peter]

But. So for example, with lovely Connor over there, are we basically saying goodbye pizzas forever or is there a balance that can be struck?

[Dr. David Unwin]

There is a balance. And confused. Yeah. So I want to give you a new concept.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Unwin]

I discovered with my patients that it wasn't really their age that mattered. So the oldest person who I reversed diabetes was 92.

[Peter]

Wow.

[Dr. David Unwin]

92 years.

[Peter]

92.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah. But it was worth it because it improved her quality of life because she wanted to live independently in her own home and garden. So we achieved what she wanted. So the concept is that you and I, it's not to do with how old you are, it's your metabolic age. So because my metabolic age is quite high because I have damaged my metabolism, I have to be very careful because I'm full blown type 2 diabetes. So I am not going to mess with that. It's not worth it because I could lose vision. Stuff can happen. But for Connor, he's metabolically much younger. So he could just start being sensible and going back to a treat occasionally and some alcohol and so on, but not cake every day and more protein. So, you know, my. I have two sons. The reason, they won't mind me saying, the reason they went low carb was to get ripped because they wanted to be able to look, you know, magnificent. And they. They do.

[Peter]

I haven't seen my abs since I was 18, so.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Well, they, These boys, they. They changed. And remarkably, they're not as low carb as me.

[Peter]

Okay.

[Dr. David Unwin]

They don't have to be for me. I don't know you and you're not my patient, so I can't tell you.

[Peter]

I'm your. I'm your temporary patient for now.

[Dr. David Unwin]

As a temporary patient, I would do a blood test on you and find out, or I tell you what I might do. Have you heard of the. These continuous glucose monitors?

[Peter]

Yes.

[Dr. David Unwin]

You can just buy. And put on your arm.

[Peter]

So are those. Those little circles?

[Dr. David Unwin]

That's right. So who was the prime minister that had one of those?

[Peter]

I don't know, but I really conservative.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Prime minister, type 1 diabetes, wore a little white disc on her arm. Nice lady. Before Johnson. Before Johnson, a lady prime minister.

[Peter]

Theresa May.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah, yeah. She has type one and she often. You'd see a little white disc on her arm. So that you can now buy on Amazon continuous glucose monitors, which gives a signal to your phone continuously of your blood sugar.

[Peter]

I've heard with those you get a little bit shocked with them sometimes. Like you could eat a couple of grapes and suddenly.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah, well. But. Yes, but if that's what's happening and if your blood sugar goes into the red, well, maybe you need to know.

[Peter]

I wonder if it's worth doing it for a week, but maintaining your normal diet just so you're overwhelmed.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah. Find out. So I think what's good about you is clearly curious. So I'd say try one of those and see and find out. Because the truth. Find it out. I didn't till I was. I avoided the truth till I was 10 years older than you. And by then I'd done more damage.

[Peter]

So. So there's. I mean, there's obviously some planning around the food you keep in the house, how you prepare.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Let's just go back to that, really. So what we're doing.

[Peter]

But you're breaking in a. You're breaking a cycle as well. Yes.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Particularly if there's some ultra processed food addiction. So what we're saying is start eating whole foods.

[Peter]

Yes.

[Dr. David Unwin]

So turn the white stuff green. So I could have A curry if you want. Why having the rice? Because that's just adding a pile of sugar. But enjoy your curry. But what about those frozen green beans you've got in the freezer? You could add that or do a stir fry or whatever instead of the chips you could have. So I'd say experiment with turning the white stuff green and increasing the protein. So your breakfast could be scrambled egg and smoked salmon. That's a pile of protein right there. And a good way to start the day. Try that. Or for your son either, instead of the cereals, scrambled egg in the microwave. Not gonna take you very long.

[Peter]

Interesting. So. So definitely I still come back. There is a certain amount of discipline to it. Like in a day like today when we have an hour or two between interviews and I'm going to need to eat, it's being aware of what's around here. It's either preparing something to bring with me.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Exactly.

[Peter]

Or being aware of something around it.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Exactly. So. But. So people often ask me, why, how is it my patients changed their lifestyle? And it all boils down to, are you motivated? And do you believe this thing could improve your health? Because if you believe this thing would improve your health, you'll do it. You'll find out, you'll experiment and if then you notice. So I would call you back. When you weigh 12 and a half stone, what does that feel like when you put on your jeans? So I weigh, I'm 67 and I weigh, I'm 73 kilos, so that's about 12 stone.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Unwin]

And I wear my jeans like, oh, I'm 67. But that feels good.

[Peter]

David. I've still got all the clothes from when I was 12 and a half staring at.

[Dr. David Unwin]

You could wear them there.

[Peter]

One of the T shirts, I couldn't.

[Dr. David Unwin]

I couldn't believe how tight it was.

[Peter]

I was like, I used to wear this.

[Dr. David Unwin]

So I would say if you believe in a thing, you're clever, you're a man of resources, you'll investigate, experiment and try plan.

[Peter]

We should pencil in a follow up in six months and see what happens.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Have a follow up also discuss it. Do you have a partner?

[Peter]

I do.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Is this person who does the cooking, who does the shopping.

[Peter]

But to be honest, the best person is with me and him are together all the time.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Right.

[Peter]

Something we both need. Like, are you listening to this and you thinking, yeah, whatever, I'm fine. Or you actually thinking, ah, maybe I need to. Yeah, there's definitely some changes I could make. But also at the same time it feels like the way you talk about it as an addiction. If you're addicted to smoking and you want to give up, you can never touch a cigarette again.

[Dr. David Unwin]

So if your dad, if he actually is a junk food addict, which you will find out over the next six months, if you do it, then abstinence is the only answer. But actually, there is a spectrum of addiction. Some people are what you call harmful users and they can have the odd treat and not derail. I'll give you an example. My wife is a very severe junk food addict. So we did the low carb thing in 2012 and then the first Christmas she thought, I'll just have one day off.

[Peter]

Cheat day.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah, a cheat day. She did not recover from that cheat day till May because for her mind was craving what she had. And she kept saying, Monday, Monday, I'll do it on Monday. And we had loads of arguments. Cause I'm saying, what are you doing? And she got heavier and heavier during that time. And also she's very unhappy when she's heavy and I love her.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Unwin]

So I saw her doing this thing and she's making tray bakes for the kids. And why are we doing this?

[Peter]

But Connie, you could be a junk food addict.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Probably it's just a thought. I mean, once what happens is the way we are living because of the dopamine and the other brain substances. Junk food changes the wiring of your brain. Now, Chris Van Tolken did that wonderful experiment for BBC television. Children these days get 60% of their diet from junk food. So Chris Van Tolken, for a month, ate junk food for 60% of his diet. And they did brain scans. It changed the wiring of his brain. Three months later, the wiring was still not right. Three months after he'd gone back to a whole food diet, he still wanted those junk foods. And the brain, when they did the brain scan, was not normal.

[Peter]

Do you believe the companies producing these ultra high processed foods are designing them and producing them in the way that they know they're making?

[Dr. David Unwin]

Absolutely. And there's evidence. This has been. This was very terrible. It is terrible. It was well documented, I think, by the New York Times. So they have laboratories and they're looking for the bliss point. So when they're making biscuits or whatever, they. They have volunteers go in, some of whom get head scans, and they're looking for what gets those little lights to go off in your head. What is the bliss point? And they know, because the bliss point means you will eat well. What's the perfect product? The perfect product is something you buy more Than you think you even need. Who can eat one Dorito? You know what I mean, don't you? I mean, I remember there's those other things. Pringles are another one. And who can eat one?

[Peter]

What do we know about Pringles? Connor?

[Dr. David Unwin]

It's a whole packet, isn't it?

[Peter]

If you get a Tarbisk one in the night.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah. And so.

[Peter]

He's so cheeky. So we'll get a. We'll get a tub of Pringles. Connor will get a tub of Pringles.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah.

[Peter]

And he'll eat 85% and then leave just a few at the bottom. That's also a lie. He's speaking like an addict.

[Dr. David Unwin]

He is. Yeah. He probably is. So. But he's called the Bliss Point. They know. They. Now, let me tell you something else. So medicine in the world took 30 years to realize that smoking killed 30 years. One of the senior partners before me in the practice used to recommend cigarettes for anxiety for his patients. So he smoked Marlboros. And I still have patients now who say, I started smoking because this particular doctor said, try. One of these doctors did not know that cigarettes caused cancer for 30 years. However, the writing was on the wall for a long time. And the companies making the cigarettes caused confusion and ridiculed the doctors who were saying, this kills. They were ridiculed. There was all sorts of. Yes. You don't understand the detail. And they found experts who said, it's not that bad. But before they knew that the tide was going out on nicotine, and they started using their expertise in advertising and all of these things into things like breakfast cereals. And they moved. And now those same expertise. Why are the breakfast cereals for children full of little plastic? This, that, and the other? For pester power. Why did you know? Why did I go getting Happy Meals all the time for my kids? Because they went on and on about the little plastic. Yeah. They knew.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Unwin]

And the same expertise went across into junk food. And that's what we're fighting now.

[Peter]

They got rid of this. Funny. They got you. You never had a time where you had the cereals with the little toy inside, did you? So it was a whole thing.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah.

[Peter]

Do you even remember it? Cut. Yeah. So you get your Cocoa Pops, and you would open it, and within the actual Cocoa Pops, somewhere in there, there would be a toy.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah. We used to search. My brother and I were like, yeah.

[Peter]

Put your grubby hands in, like.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah.

[Peter]

Fight through it. And you'd find a little toy. And it was like, you know, like, A Kinder egg. It's a little toy like that. But every week when you did the shopping and if I would go with my mum, I'd be looking up which. Which had the toy I wanted and then I'd get home. That's all I would think about, is getting that toy.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah.

[Peter]

It's. It was wild. They banned it. Eventually.

[Dr. David Unwin]

They did. But you. By then. By then, maybe you were already addicted.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Unwin]

And so they've used their immense experience. I mean, what resources do I have? None.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Unwin]

What resources do they have? Oh, gazillions. I don't even know. But we're. Now this is all coming to fruition and you see it in the streets, you see it everywhere. Think about buying petrol. Just look around in there.

[Peter]

It's all addictive, it's all junk.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah. Yeah. Do you want to vape? Do you want to smoke? Do you want to buy alcohol, pornography or chocolate bars? It's all there.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Unwin]

So if you were addicted to any of those things, it's quite. You're running a gauntlet just to pay for your petrol. Because otherwise you're reaching, aren't you, for the cream egg.

[Peter]

Yeah. And yes, I'll usually pay for the petrol. Get a coffee and a packet of Discus.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Exactly. You have. So you can see what I'm saying is kind of reasonable and we've set up a perfect storm. If you want obesity to be the national problem and then to suggest that spending huge amounts of money on fat jabs as the answer when what we should be doing. I mean, there's been wonderful experience in Northumberland where they. For a little while, they didn't allow planning permission for takeaways in an area. They just didn't. Whereas another area, they let it go. And then they monitored the effect on obesity in children, because every time you give planning permission for a tuck shop or a pizza place or whatever, you're affecting the health of the local population. We've known that for a while. Who do you think eats all this stuff?

[Peter]

So I own a little coffee shop and we sell cakes.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah.

[Peter]

And we've also just taken a lease on a new building to open a pizza restaurant. Feel like I'm a drug dealer now.

[Dr. David Unwin]

You might be.

[Peter]

You might be.

[Dr. David Unwin]

You might be. And I just, you know. But you're only doing what everybody else does, so I. I don't judge you. And I'm not sure you'd thought about all of this before I came.

[Peter]

No, I hadn't. And I also think a pizza restaurant. Pizza's not going to leave My life for now I might fund. I believe I could fundamentally change my diet, see you in six months and be in much better shape and haven't had pizza.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah. So that's the challenge. So what I do. If you were my patient, I'm not an expert in. You. You. You are. If you succeed, reflect on how that feels and do more of it. If you succeed and then fail. One of the most important things about failure is to learn, you know. And you'd say to Connor, he's going to make mistakes. Don't beat yourself up, but don't do it again. And I'm an old guy and I like to think I've got experience and I've learned from my mistakes. So if you do it and it's a success, I'm proud of you. Really well done. If you do it, it's a success. But then you have a holiday or Christmas and it all goes wrong. Why? Why? And then you need to do things differently. And I have patience and I can give you one example. It's probably coming towards the end of this chat, but let me leave you with this. This patient has consented for me to share this with the world. So this person has poorly controlled diabetes and he knows that bread is giving him really major health problems. And his wife knows too. So she was in the habit of putting detergent washing up liquid on any crusts that were in the bin because he would get up in the night and eat those crusts. But you know what? He would eat the crusts even with the detergent on. And the only thing that would stop him. So his wife came up with the idea of spray bleach and she would leave the spray bleach on the side so that if he did get up in the night, he didn't even try it because she'd already gone through the bin with the bleach. And that was the only thing that would stop that person. And that person struggles and struggles and struggles and that is a very painful process for him. Really painful. Because he's a highly intelligent person and this threatens his way of life.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Unwin]

And very serious. And he consented in a way. It was very kind of him because it gives you the perfect. Helps you understand that for this is a successful person in every other way.

[Peter]

I want to talk to you about one of my sponsors, Incogni. And that means we're going to talk about the weird world of spam. And I don't just mean those spam emails that you get day after day from companies you never heard of and companies you've never signed up to. I'm also talking about those spam phone calls you get from those people who seem to know a little bit too much about you trying to get your bank details. It's all a bit creepy right now. This all comes from the world of data brokerage. There are companies out there collecting your data, building profiles and sending that data to anyone who wants it. Which is why when one of those scammers phones you up, they seem to know everything about you. Now, I've tried, I've tried myself to get off these lists, tried to get off the phone lists, try to get off the email list. I unsubscribe from every one of these emails that comes in. But this game of Whack a Mole, it just never ends. And so this is where Incogni comes in. They do all the hard work for you. They reach out to these companies and they will get you legally removed from these lists. And I know because last time they sponsored my show, I signed up and I didn't take the free option that they offered me, which wanted to pay for it. I wanted to see if you get value for money. And they removed me from 79 data broker lists. And so I've stayed on, I've stayed a subscriber and I have seen a massive decrease in the number of emails and phone calls I've been getting. So it's a great service. I recommend you check it out. If you're sick of this like I was, please head over to incogni.com Peter and sign up. If you use the code Peter, you will get a lovely 60% discount. So that's incogni.com forward slash Peter. Look, it's a really embarrassing thing to admit, but my habit, my worst habit is I can wake up at three in the morning really hungry and go and make like a cheese toastie. Simple.

[Dr. David Unwin]

That is worrying. Yeah, that is worrying.

[Peter]

But I, I sometimes think I, I, I almost don't even know I'm doing it. Well, yeah, I'm conscious. Yeah, but, but it's, it's, it feels like autopilot.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yes. My wife says, she, she said it's like your disembodied hand is reaching inside the fridge and you're looking at it thinking, what? Why? But you can't stop it.

[Peter]

It used to be worse. There were times I'd go downstairs and just like get a, like it was terrible. Get a handful of Maltese and just stuff my face. But I wasn't fully conscious. I was doing it like I was. I knew I was doing it, but I wasn't aware because I'm trying, like during most of the day, I can be pretty good.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah. But you see, that worries me. And you.

[Peter]

Yes.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Because the other thing is habits are very powerful.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Unwin]

So one of the reasons you shouldn't cheat. So do you think about brushing your teeth? No, you don't. And there's a book, isn't there, on this, about habits. My wife would always say it's easy to maintain a habit. So I am in the habit of being always low carb, so I don't have to worry or think about what. What I'm going to eat because it's not going to be bread. But you see, you've got a habit there that's quite difficult. And if you cheat occasionally, that little light will come on on your head and we're hungry through habit. It's a habit. So I only eat twice a day or once a day. I haven't eaten breakfast for years. I don't need to. I've kind of just cut it out. I'd rather lie in bed. And my habit is to not eaten till lunchtime today. I haven't eaten a particle of food.

[Peter]

What about. What about things like coffee, cappuccinos and.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Well, I've. I've enjoyed. That was a delicious. Thank you.

[Peter]

But do you worry about milks and cheeses?

[Dr. David Unwin]

Well, now for me, a latte. Because I have type 2 diabetes, a latte will double my blood sugar. So I've worn the continuous glucose monitors and that if I had one recently, because I was too embarrassed, I did a speech for all of the pediatricians, consultant pediatricians in Merseyside, and somebody very kindly brought me a latte. And I was too polite to say, I don't drink that. I drank it on the way back. I knew my blood sugar was crazy and it doubled with the milk in the latte. That's how damaged my metabolism is. I can't even drink milk right. I couldn't eat an apple. I couldn't eat a quarter of an apple because it would put my blood sugar up.

[Peter]

And alcohol is just a no for you, I assume?

[Dr. David Unwin]

No, actually, it isn't. And the good news, the good news for you and me is. Yeah, so dry white wine and dry red wine. I do drink alcohol. I have to be careful because I can become addicted to that too. And so I. I have to. I have to keep it under control. Otherwise I start looking forward to it too much.

[Peter]

Yes.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Like today's the day I'm Going to drink. Don't know whether you've ever felt like that. I'm so happy most days. Today's the day I'm going to have a drink. So I've discovered that if I, if I drink, if I don't allow myself to drink more than once a week, I don't get that sort of cheaty feeling. And I can control it if I drink too often. Holidays are very dangerous because I get into a drinking every day and then it's terrible. Lunchtime when you get, you know, you come back and I'm running a surgery and about one o' clock I could just murder a gin and Tony, that's terrible, isn't it?

[Peter]

It is, yeah.

[Dr. David Unwin]

So I, I now I'm aware of it as a danger and I'm more in touch with the voices again. Back to me at 55, I didn't hear any of the messages my body was trying to give me. I was deaf to what my brain was telling me. And then when I cut out junk food, I could tell what was a good day and a bad day and I was chasing those good days. Cause I love the sharpness. And if you look at me now, you can see I have every bit as much energy as I had when I started. And I could do this for hours. I have a lot of stamina. A lot.

[Peter]

As I'm flagging and you're flagging, I'm flagging.

[Dr. David Unwin]

I can tell just to look at you.

[Peter]

Yeah, the car is running out.

[Dr. David Unwin]

You're flagging and I'm not. And why is that? Why is that?

[Peter]

Because I want a burger.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah, but it, no, it's slightly more interesting than that. If you have a moment, do you remember me saying you're a dual fuel engine. The brain slightly prefers fat as fuel. Okay. So. And because I, I'm burning fat, so I'm in ketosis, I've got thousands of calories of fat on me. So I can burn my fat now. And whether I eat now or tonight, tomorrow morning, makes no difference to my energy.

[Peter]

Mine's burning the bagel.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yours, yours is gone now.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Unwin]

And you're on the way down because you're relying on carbohydrate. I am not relying on carbohydrate because I haven't, I don't have much. I'm burning fat. And one of the world experts who's coming tomorrow and you could really do to meet her is Dr. Georgia Reid and she's a world famous psychiatrist and she specializes in nutritional psychiatry. How do we use food for Mental health. She's a close friend of mine. She is to the world of psychiatry what I AM to type 2 diabetes. And she's come all the way from America to talk at our conference because she wants people to know how your brain could be better burning fat. And there are RCTs going on now, special studies in Edinburgh University on bipolar disorder, which is being helped by a keto diet. It's the world of nutrition is waking up. People all over the world are thinking about food in a very different way. Way.

[Peter]

Do you have any questions, Con? Nothing you want to ask. Where's the bleach at home? Where's the bleach you need?

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah, you may need it.

[Peter]

He. Yesterday, he was like, dad, when did you have those crumpets? There was two crumpets. And I was like, I can't really remember. I knew one had them about three in the morning.

[Dr. David Unwin]

I used to eat. I. I used to eat my children's Easter eggs. Like a monster. But. Yes, like a monster. And they. Dad, he is a monster.

[Peter]

You're right.

[Dr. David Unwin]

No, but they would hide them and I would. In the night, I'm like, where are they? I know they're here somewhere and he's had stuff.

[Peter]

And then first thing in the morning, gone to the shop and replaced. Yeah, I've gone to the shop and replaced it.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Because you feel so bad, don't you? Like Easter eggs. It's your own children. And so I've done that. And do you know, that has been so interesting. I think it was really good that you rep. It's funny how we start off almost like a role play. Yeah. But actually becomes very genuine.

[Peter]

No, I mean, it's all very real.

[Dr. David Unwin]

And.

[Peter]

Yeah, I'm not a. I'm not a granddad yet. I'd like to be one day soon, hopefully. But have me back in six months.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Have an experiment and reflect with me. Yeah, reflect with me. I'll take you through the next thing. This is what I do with patients. So it finishes now. And I say, right, so what you're going to do. So this is what I. How I'd finish with a patient, I'd say, so what specific changes can you commit to right now?

[Peter]

Changing the makeup of our fridge. Yes, easily.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yeah.

[Peter]

And just making my meals myself.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Just making your meals yourself. You're going to commit to that? We're going to shake them.

[Peter]

Yes, we're on it. We're on it. Okay. We'll put six months. We'll check six months in the dough.

[Dr. David Unwin]

We'll put it in that's how I leave it. And then when I see you next time, I would write in the notes, that's what you've done. And then I ask, how did it go? Not in a judgmental way, because you cannot fail.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Unwin]

You're just learning about yourself. And if you can, if you can understand your own physiology and your own psychology better, wouldn't that be great if you understood the engine that you have?

[Peter]

So, so I'm using power, I'm using myself as the lens for anyone listening who feels similar. But if, if someone's listening now and they're like, yeah, okay, I need to think about this more. Is there any resources you would say? There are loads, yeah.

[Dr. David Unwin]

So one of the things is, please follow me on Twitter. So I'm owcarbgp on Twitter, I've got 100,000 followers. I'm showing all the time, where are the conferences? Where's the things? If you want an app, a free app. So my work has been taken on by the wonderful FreshWell practice, an NHS practice, and they have designed a free app you can download on your phone and it's called the Freshwell App. Free. Okay, so we're not making money out of any of this. The Freshwell app, download it on your phone, you can go. I set up with. There were 16 of US clinicians worried by public health and we set up a charity, the Public Health Collaboration. And that website which you've got up there somewhere has got resources, diet sheets for you to look at, recipes, that kind of thing. You could, you could look on there.

[Peter]

Well, we'll share that all in the show.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Oh, I've got one important one, a final one. My wife wrote a book called Fork in the Road, published on Amazon. It's not for profit. All of the profit goes to those two charities. I've told every penny, we haven't made any money out of what we do. But she has written a self published book called Fork in the Road, which you can download from Amazon or Kindle. So if you go off the rails, she said, I've written the book, I wish I'd read when I was 16. Because she spent all her life as a food addict, as a consultant psychologist, not understanding her own behavior. And if you get in a pickle in the next few months, you could buy that book and read it and you would learn a great deal. And I think that's probably, I've got other stuff, but that's enough.

[Peter]

We'll put that in the show. Notes. I mean, this has been quite an indulgent episode for me because I've allowed it to be about me, but I do. Look, I know I won't be alone, so hopefully other people have got benefits from it and we should. Let's get together in six months.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Yes. Other things, you know, just. There's so many things I'd. I would like to talk about dyslexia.

[Peter]

Yes.

[Dr. David Unwin]

I'd love to do that because I have dyslexia quite badly and many members of my family, and that's an interesting topic. I run 40 acres of bird reserve and so I'm really interested in biodiversity and sustainable agriculture. And if you're going to suggest a diet, who's going to grow it? And it has to be sustainable, so that's kind of interesting too. And so, literally, I've got land and we're producing food, so that'd be another end. I've got loads. I could go on and on.

[Peter]

Well, hopefully we won't have to talk about low carb too much next time, because I'll be here, I'll be looking.

[Dr. David Unwin]

We could do it as a consultation that. With the world. Can see how you're doing. What I would say is, what you should do today is honestly get Connor to measure your waist.

[Peter]

Yes.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Get him to do it with a tape measure at the fattest.

[Peter]

Yes.

[Dr. David Unwin]

And don't make your waist small. The other thing I would say is, what if today was the fattest you're gonna be. The other thing is take a private photo of yourself, honestly, in front of a mirror as you are. And if what you do works, you'll be proud to show me a before and after.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Because. And that would be very good in terms of psychology, because you would see the evidence of exactly how you are.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Unwin]

And then you can come. And that would help motivate you. Then if you felt the Doritos are calling to me, you get out your photo and think, that is not me. And I've got patients. Some of my patients have lost 10 stone in weight. 11 stone. Some of them. We don't even know how much weight they've lost because they were too heavy to weigh at the beginning. Too heavy to weigh.

[Peter]

I thought you can get those things where you weigh elephants.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Not in the. On the nhs, you don't. I all what I did with them is I just measured their waist circumference and waited for them to become weighable. That happens at 150 kilos.

[Peter]

Well, thank you. I'm not there. Okay. I feel determined.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Good.

[Peter]

Connor, you're gonna have to support me on this boy. Thank you. It was very indulgent of me, but.

[Dr. David Unwin]

It'S just where it went. I was interested. I loved that because I had no idea where it was going. And it's fun because it's original.

[Peter]

Well, people, I have a. Two to three times a week I am released onto YouTube, so hopefully people will see some kind of progression. But let's do it. Six months. I'm committed now.

[Dr. David Unwin]

Let's do it. The world is watching.

[Peter]

Let's go. Thank you. Thank you, everyone, for listening. Fat Pete, no more. We'll see you soon. Bye.