Podcast Summary

The Peter McCormack Show #118 – Neema Parvini: Elites, Populism & The Illusion of Change

Date: October 7, 2025
Guests: Peter McCormack (host) & Dr. Neema Parvini (author of "The Populist Delusion")

Overview

This episode dives deep into elite theory, the nature of populism, and the persistent illusion of meaningful political change. Dr. Neema Parvini challenges conventional views about democracy, populist movements, and the forces shaping politics in the UK, the US, and globally. The conversation weaves together academic political theory, historical reflection, and sharp commentary on current events, media, and the psychology of modern life.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Nature of Democracy and the Ruling Class

• Illusion of Choice:

  • Parvini asserts that democracy is more an “illusion” than a genuine mistake, arguing it’s "an extremely effective strategy for ruling" by giving people the sense of agency and choice, when, in reality, nothing fundamental changes whatever the outcome ([02:22]).
  • Quote: "The genius of the system is that even after people see what we're about to talk about, even when they see the trick, it's got ways of reeling them back in and giving them new hope and new delusions to fall for." – Neema Parvini [03:15]
  • Populists like Nigel Farage and Donald Trump are described as part of the illusion—presented as threats, but ultimately not a problem for the real centers of power.

• Systemic Containment:

  • Political options that appear radical or oppositional are often tolerated or even seeded by elites, as long as they are contained and compliant ([05:38]).
  • Pro Wrestling Metaphor: The media “pushes” opposition figures like pro-wrestling heroes and villains to give the appearance of contest, but within a controlled narrative.

2. Is It All Organic or Engineered?

• Organic Incentives vs. Behind-the-Scenes Control:
  • Peter pushes the idea that perhaps the system is simply the outcome of incentives—media, politicians, donors, and bureaucrats each pursuing their interests.
  • Parvini, drawing on elite theory, suggests it’s both: there are organic, bottom-up forces, but also top-down interventions by security services, NGOs, and state-connected actors, especially when a real threat emerges ([10:13], [15:01]).
  • Quote: "Power, real power wants to be seen. It can't help but show itself." – Neema Parvini [62:17]

3. The Role of Media and Narrative Management

• Active Message Shaping:

  • Both discuss how state actors and NGOs actively script the public conversation, referencing everything from the vetting of candidates in populist parties to “nudge units” in the media, and even literal scripting of post-crisis narratives ([06:40], [15:01]).

• Tommy Robinson & Selective Outrage:

  • Illustration of how media frames far-right vs. far-left activism differently, often with evident double standards ([18:30]); e.g., BLM and Antifa were given state and media cover as “shock troops for what we used to call the regime” ([20:23]).

• Containment of Threats:

  • Genuine grassroots movements rarely scale without some form of elite co-option or intervention; the system is set up to prevent the emergence of truly uncontrolled, organized minorities ([23:40]).

4. Elite Theory Explained ([68:23] – [77:24])

Key Thinkers and Concepts:

• Gaetano Mosca: Every society, regardless of structure, is divided into a ruling class (organized minority) and the ruled (disorganized mass).
• Vilfredo Pareto: Circulation of elites—foxes (ruling by cunning) and lions (ruling by force); history cycles between these archetypes.
• Robert Michels: "Iron law of oligarchy"—all organizations, including political parties, inevitably become oligarchies controlled by a select few.
• Burnham's Decisionism: Ultimately, power manifests in decisive action, especially visible in emergencies (e.g., executive orders, pandemic responses).

Quotes:

• "Once you understand elite theory, every system is basically the same, regardless of what it calls itself." – N. Parvini [75:02]
• "It's a soft dictatorship. Still a dictatorship. And who is the dictator is somewhat hidden and diffuse." – N. Parvini [75:28]
• "In this country, you're still getting Tony Blair." – N. Parvini on UK political stasis [27:47]

5. Illusions of Populism and The Limits of Change

• Populist parties (e.g., Reform, Trump, Le Pen) are either purposely contained or captured through vetting, incentives, and eventual co-option. Even genuine-seeming radical change (e.g., the French, Russian Revolutions) led to more efficient centralization of power ([108:36]).
• Skepticism that any populist breakthrough is truly a break from elite consensus.
• Quote: "With every revolution that takes place in history, what actually happens is that the new revolutionary power centralizes power more efficiently than the old one." – N. Parvini [108:36]

6. Billionaires, NGOs, and the Administrative State

• NGO Networks & Charity:

  • Speculation on how massive fortunes are funneled into foundations and NGOs that develop a power of their own, sometimes at odds with the original donor’s intent (e.g., Ford Foundation post-Henry Ford) ([34:25]).
  • Billionaires (Blair, Ellison, Gates, Musk) straddle both “globalist” and “nationalist” camps—a tension most visible regarding their support for Israel ([41:40], [43:20]).

• Managerialism and Systemic Inertia:

  • The managerial state is self-sustaining, resistant to ground-up or electoral change, and able to perpetuate itself via technocratic “solutions” (e.g., digital ID—long championed by Blair, now policy regardless of which party rules) ([29:40], [66:41]).

7. Hopelessness, Hyperreality, and Real Community

• The Loss of Real Engagement:

  • Online activism is criticized as a containment strategy—providing the feeling of action without any real effect. Genuine, local organizing is slow, unglamorous, but potentially more meaningful ([92:31]).
  • The erosion of meaningful work, community, and shared values may explain widespread dissatisfaction despite technological “progress” ([98:38]).

• The Lure of Nostalgia:

  • Both discuss whether older forms of community (villages, towns) provided more happiness and meaning, even amid poverty ([102:03]).

• Quote: "Are people actually happiest in that mode where they're living in a little village where they have a purpose, where they have a place, where they have community, as opposed to the current era where people don't know their own neighbors..." – N. Parvini [98:38]

8. Bitcoin, AI, and Utopian Counter-Elites

• Peter raises the idea that movements like Bitcoin offer an alternate form of power through decentralized control, but Parvini cautions that any real change would require organized action—not just technological innovation ([119:53], [120:36]).

9. What Is To Be Done: Acting Realistically

• Both host and guest wrestle with the tension between realism and nihilism—whether personal and collective action matter in a system so robustly self-perpetuating.
• Hope is suggested in potential elite fracture (competing elite factions may open “little bits of freedom”) and the gradual possibility of a “revolution within the mind” ([61:58], [129:05]).

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• "Democracy is...an extremely effective strategy for ruling. For the ruling class, especially when you have this idea that there are two sides."
  – Neema Parvini [02:22]

• "Even after people see the trick, it’s got ways of reeling them back in and giving them new hope and new delusions to fall for."
  – Neema Parvini [03:15]

• "We’re just another flavor of the same thing."
  – N. Parvini, on political parties [78:12]

• "Mass and scale... require technical specialists, bureaucrats...to keep people kind of doing as they're meant to do."
  – N. Parvini [10:13]

• "There needs to be a true clearing out of the entire ruling class..."
  – N. Parvini [104:58]

• "What I will boil down to the whole bitcoin dream, sadly is, you and whose army. Ultimately, that's what it boils down to."
  – N. Parvini [119:53]

Notable Moments

• Pro-wrestling analogy for contemporary politics ([05:38])
• Digression into the co-option and management of populist parties ([12:23], [13:39])
• Examples of coordinated media response post-crisis (the Southport protests: “every single front page all the same on the same day” – [15:01])
• Elite theory deep-dive with applied examples ([68:23]-[77:24])
• Reflections on lost meaning, nostalgia for village life ([98:38]-[104:34])
• Parvini’s upcoming book announcement: Applied Elite Theory ([134:03])
• White pill optimism in considering local conservative mavericks (Rupert Lowe) as true, uncapturable alternatives ([130:57]-[132:38])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Illusion of Political Change / Elite Theory Introduction: [00:00]-[10:00]
• Populism & Media Control: [12:00]-[20:00]
• Tommy Robinson, BLM, and Narrative Management: [17:48]-[24:44]
• Personal Experience with Surveillance & Alienation: [24:44]-[27:45]
• On the Nature and Capture of Populist Parties: [27:45]-[32:24]
• Elite Theory (Classical and Modern): [68:23]-[79:40]
• Revolutions and Elite Circulation: [108:36]-[113:25]
• Community, Meaning, Job Loss, and Nostalgia: [98:38]-[104:34]
• Bitcoin, AI, and New “Elite” Formation: [119:53]-[121:59]
• Media Incentives and Algorithmic Influence: [121:07]-[127:37]
• Reflections on Agency, Nihilism, and Hope: [127:37]-[134:03]

Tone & Takeaways

The discussion is candid, at times cynical, but ultimately invites listeners to see beyond surface-level narratives—urging realism about the nature of power, skepticism about “new” populisms, and a search for meaning beyond the hyperreality of online politics.

Final Thought:
Change, if it comes, may not arrive at the ballot box but from a slow revolution in consciousness—and perhaps, as Parvini suggests, a rediscovery or reinvention of genuine community, meaning, and agency in a depersonalized, managed age.

Next Steps:

• Check out Neema Parvini’s books: The Populist Delusion, Prophets of Doom, and soon, Applied Elite Theory.
• Further reading suggestions from the episode: Burnham, Pareto, Mosca, Michels, John Gray's False Dawn, Evola's Ride the Tiger.

For all who feel like “clowns in the clown show,” the episode says: you are not alone, and understanding is the first step toward any kind of meaningful change.