The Peter McCormack Show - Episode #120

Guest: Lisa Townsend, Surrey Police & Crime Commissioner
Host: Peter McCormack
Date: October 16, 2025
Title: Common-sense Policing: Drugs, Gangs and Hurty Words

Overview

This episode explores the current state and future of policing in the UK through a candid and wide-ranging conversation with Lisa Townsend, Surrey’s Police and Crime Commissioner (PCC). Topics include the real-world challenges of local policing, town centre decline, appropriateness and politicization of the PCC role, funding models, escalating shoplifting, the drugs crisis, middle class complicity in crime, state overreach, and pragmatic reform. Lisa provides forthright, sometimes controversial, views on areas like drug policy, hate crime, and public sector inefficiency, while Peter pushes with insights from his own business and community activism in Bedford.

The discussion is practical, critical, and often deeply honest—eschewing dogma or party lines for common-sense, nuanced solutions. If you’re interested in the realities of British policing, politics, and how these intersect with social change, this is an essential listen.

Key Discussion Points & Segments

1. The State of UK Towns: Decline, Crime, and Social Shifts

• [03:00 – 07:01]

  • Peter and Lisa discuss the visible decline of British town centers: shop closures, retail parks taking business, rise in crime (especially drugs, open crack use, shoplifting).
  • Changing high street landscape—proliferation of dessert shops, vape shops, and Turkish barbers.
  • Peter initiates private security in Bedford, leading to conflict with local PCC and some community controversy.

  “People are openly smoking crack on the high street and not caring. Masses of shoplifting... roaming groups of people...” — Peter McCormack [04:06]

  “We’ve worked very hard at designing out these problems in Surrey... Shoplifting, definitely cannabis.” — Lisa Townsend [04:47]

2. Business Improvement Districts, Community Security, and Policing Roles

• [07:01 – 13:52]

  • Contrasts between how Surrey’s BID (business improvement districts) and security arrangements supplement police, versus Bedford’s scrapped BID.
  • Lisa’s criticism of ex-police officers becoming PCCs (“They don’t need another police officer sitting in my chair... I’ve come up through politics and law...” [09:21]).
  • Peter’s skepticism about the politicization and bureaucracy of PCCs; Lisa strongly defends PCCs as necessary, accountable governance, not just “political” appointees.

  “My job is to facilitate [community partnerships] and make that work... We are obviously not police officers. I’m really, really clear on that.” — Lisa Townsend [08:13]

  “I’m not sure the politicization of the police is a good thing. I’m also not sure if it’s a good use of budget...” — Peter McCormack [15:10]

3. Policing Politics, Public Perception, and Accountability

• [16:47 – 23:09]

  • History behind PCCs: Replacing undemocratic, expensive police authorities with a single accountable figure.
  • Lisa’s belief the “politicization” argument overlooks police have always been subject to politics and public opinion.
  • Strong views on political honesty, the electorate’s role, and how self-censorship damages democracy.

  “The police have always been politicized... As police and crime commissioner in Surrey, I should be taking those political attacks. Don’t aim them at my Chief Constable.” — Lisa Townsend [19:10]

  “Self-censorship is censorship and I think we see a lot of that.” — Peter McCormack [20:50]

4. The Economic and Social Downward Spirals: State, Tax, Representation

• [23:51 – 31:30]

  • Both agree the electorate often lacks economic literacy, leading to unsustainable promises from politicians.
  • The career/lifestyle downsides of modern politics, which excludes qualified people and increases dependence on “independent wealth.”
  • “The best politicians lose independence because they can’t afford to quit on principle.” [27:07]

  “To put yourself in a position where you’ve reached the heights of politics and you’re in the Cabinet... Not to be able to take a principal position and resign... because you were worried about whether you could pay the mortgage.” — Lisa Townsend [27:07]

5. PCC Powers: What They Do, Budgets, Police Independence

• [34:45 – 43:35]

  • Clarity on the lines between the PCC (strategy, planning, budget) and Chief Constable (operational independence).
  • Funding disparities: Surrey uniquely pays most of its police funding from local council tax, creating unfair burdens.
  • The mechanics of raising money, spending on policing, and direct democratic accountability to residents.

  “The PCC owns the budget. The estate. Every contract... I appoint the Chief Constable. If something went horribly wrong... I would suspend and dismiss him.” — Lisa Townsend [35:07]

  “If the public look at me and go, okay, you’ve raised again our council tax... we don’t think you spent it properly... we’re not going to vote you in next time.” — Lisa Townsend [40:01]

6. Council Funding Crisis, Social Care Timebomb

• [43:41 – 45:45]

  • Both Surrey and Bedford are facing bankrupt or near-bankrupt councils, unable to keep up with statutory obligations like social care, SEND (special educational needs), and emergency housing.
  • Discussion of cuts impacting even the poorest communities.

  “We’ve got our councils... in particular amounts of debt. Adult social care—through the roof. We know what’s happening... massive, massive, massive timebomb.” — Lisa Townsend [44:01]

7. Building the ‘Police and Crime Plan’: Pragmatism & Accountability

• [46:07 – 54:08]

  • Lisa’s plan: “Back to basics policing,” living within its means, prioritizing violence against women and girls, and ensuring value for public money.
  • Importance of focusing police resources on core crime, not non-crime hate incidents.
  • Strong argument to report rather than “police by anecdotes.”

  “No Chief Constable or pcc wants to see a spike in crime – but you’ve got to report it to fix it. We can’t police by anecdotes.” — Lisa Townsend [54:08]

8. Shoplifting & Retail Crime: Reality, Myths, and Drug Links

• [55:31 – 66:47]
  • The normalization of shoplifting: from petty theft to systematic organized crime.
  • Busting the £200 shoplifting “decriminalization” myth: “That is such a myth. I was in a Sainsbury’s... he was arrested, taken into custody and went straight back to prison for £7.50.” — Lisa Townsend [58:26]
  • Security guard “hands off” policies, shifting the burden onto honest consumers.
  • The strange rise of middle class shoplifting and complicity in the criminal economy.

9. Drugs Policy: Hypocrisy, Harm, and the Case Against Prohibition

• [67:10 – 85:14]
  • Hard honest talk about middle class complicity in the drug crisis—“Willful naivety... that doing a line of coke at the weekend isn’t contributing to county lines... is so negligent.” — Lisa Townsend [67:26]
  • A rare conservative call for new thinking: “It’s just bloody obvious it doesn’t work. Prohibition as we have designed it does not work.” — Lisa Townsend [78:28]
  • Potential to reallocate criminal market profits by legalizing and taxing some drugs.
  • Pushback against moves to reclassify cannabis as Class A: “It seems to me nonsensical... not a single police officer privately thinks that is sensible.” — Lisa Townsend [87:45]

10. The Role of the State, Covid Legacy, and Honest Governance

• [90:21 – 97:02]
  • Expansion of state power through Covid, public expectations, and a deal that cannot be sustained.
  • Honest reflection on the state’s limits—“It’s a very convenient lie [that] there is this thing called the state and it lives somewhere in London and has infinite money.” — Lisa Townsend [96:46]
  • Ongoing tension between collective good and asking “others to work harder.”

11. The PCC Job: Commissioning, Political Cycles, and Single Points of Failure

• [100:10 – 123:21]

  • The PCC as a strategic commissioner for victim support, abuse prevention, and addiction.
  • Chronic underfunding of vital local services, including a 4.4% budget cut for victims in Surrey.
  • Discussion on the impact of politics on PCC retention—most votes go to the party, not the person, risking loss of good officers due to national party shifts.
  • Risks of unqualified or opportunist candidates emerging from upstart parties.

  “Saying to a domestic abuse refuge, here’s £750,000... That takes time to work itself through.” — Lisa Townsend [115:14]

12. Policing Hate Crime, Paperwork Overload, and Operational Overreach

• [124:19 – 128:34]

  • Huge time wasted by police on non-core tasks—paperwork, mental health callouts, non-crime hate incidents.
  • Calls for more discretion, less “error terror,” and focus on real policing.

  “All that bollocks needs to go. That just needs to go.” — Peter McCormack [127:59] “Allow police officers to use their discretion without fear of being hauled up... Trust them until proven otherwise.” — Lisa Townsend [128:34]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Prohibition, as we have designed it, does not work.” — Lisa Townsend [78:28]
• “Self-censorship is censorship...” — Peter McCormack [20:50]
• “If the public look at me and go... we don’t feel as safe... we’re not going to vote you in next time.” — Lisa Townsend [40:01]
• “It’s a very convenient lie [that] there is this thing called the state and it lives somewhere in London and has infinite money.” — Lisa Townsend [96:46]
• “Willful naivety that doing a line of coke at the weekend... isn’t contributing to county lines... is so negligent.” — Lisa Townsend [67:26]
• “All that bollocks needs to go. That just needs to go.” — Peter McCormack [127:59]

Concluding Insights

Lisa Townsend brings a pragmatic, unsentimental, and refreshingly independent voice to the realities of policing and public policy—whether challenging her own party’s orthodoxy on drugs, criticizing “sacred cows” like the NHS, or calling for honest conversations about the limits of state power.
Peter McCormack injects a grounded community perspective, business realism, and an adversarial but open style.
Their exchange cuts through party lines, confronting British problems with candor—offering a rare window into the practical challenges and the possibilities for reform in 21st-century Britain.

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Town Centres, Retail Crime: [03:00–07:01]
• BID Security & PCC Role: [07:01–13:52]
• PCC Politics & Accountability: [16:47–23:09]
• Economics & Political Class: [23:51–31:30]
• PCC Powers & Budget: [34:45–43:35]
• Council Crisis: [43:41–45:45]
• Building the Crime Plan: [46:07–54:08]
• Shoplifting, Security, Social Change: [55:31–66:47]
• Drugs & Prohibition: [67:10–85:14]
• Role of State & Covid Effects: [90:21–97:02]
• Commissioning, Election Risks: [100:10–123:21]
• Policing Hate Crime & Paperwork: [124:19–128:34]

Recommended for listeners who want the real story behind policing, policy, and power in the UK—beyond the headlines and party spin.