Podcast Summary
The Peter McCormack Show
Episode #121 — Curtis Yarvin PT.2: From Caesar to Satoshi: Why Political & Economic Systems Fail
Date: October 20, 2025
Host: Peter McCormack
Guest: Curtis Yarvin (aka Mencius Moldbug)
Episode Overview
This wide-ranging, intellectually dense episode continues Peter McCormack's deep-dive with controversial thinker Curtis Yarvin. "From Caesar to Satoshi" traverses the collapse and failures of political and economic systems, Curtis’s original theories on the origins of money (and Bitcoin), why populist movements usually fail, the pitfalls of democracy, and the history of economic thought. Yarvin recounts his firsthand experience as a computer scientist and lays out the connections between digital property, network effects, and the inevitability of monetary transformation—a journey from Ancient Rome all the way to blockchain.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. "Things Have Been Hosed Since the 17th Century"
- Yarvin opens with a thesis: systems—political, economic, legal—have been fundamentally broken since the 17th century.
"Things are hosed is a hard pill to swallow. And then... things have been hosed since the 17th century." (Curtis, 00:00)
- This isn't a recent malaise, but a problem with the very shape of modern governance and economics.
2. On Authentic Political Leadership
- Peter references FDR's candid honesty in contrast with today’s politicians.
- Yarvin describes the longing for authenticity in leadership:
"People love actually, like when you break through something false..." (02:08)
- Honest politicians succeed:
"What I've noticed is that honest politicians do really fucking well." (Peter, 07:05)
- Yarvin praises Trump and J.D. Vance for being the same on- and off-camera, unlike other politicians:
"They are the same person on camera and off camera." (Curtis, 07:31)
3. Why Populism and "Literal Democracy" Usually Fail
- Populist/“literal democratic” movements lack the organizational heft to make lasting, substantive changes.
- Curtis makes a distinction between being reactive (negative) and creating—populism is too often about what it hates, not what it will build:
"It is not enough just to be negative. You actually have to come together and create something new. And it has to be really new... very big brained." (Curtis, 10:00)
- Reference to Alexander Pope:
“For forms of government, let fools contest, whatever governs best is best.” (11:19)
- Populism’s track record is poor because “the people” as such are too weak to govern themselves for long:
"They are both incompetent and too weak to govern. If they were a king, they would be like an eight year old king." (Curtis, 18:47)
4. On Caesarism, Aristocracy, and the Design of Government
- Yarvin explores classical forms of government (monarchy, aristocracy, democracy):
- Democracy is unstable and too easily manipulated.
- Aristocracy no longer functions as a check.
- Monarchy, for most of history, was "normal" and when designed well, is optimal—but it's risky.
- The challenge: how to build a modern Caesar without risking a Caligula:
"You want to design a system that will give you a Caesar, you know, an Augustus but not a Tiberius or a Caligula." (Curtis, 19:47)
- Absolute monarchy is "Boolean" (all or nothing); you can’t go halfway to revolution:
"The only thing you see is that if the monarchy is less than absolute, it rapidly disappears." (Curtis, 24:52)
- "Oligarchy... has all these very strong natural stabilizing forces which leads to just... insanity. But at least there's peace until just everything falls apart." (Curtis, 26:17)
5. Case Study: Bukele in El Salvador
- Transformation via "CEO-style" leadership: Bukele compared to a national CEO, making hard choices, personal risk, cleaning up corruption.
"He crushed the meritocracy in El Salvador... and he told the U.S. embassy to go blow smoke up its butt..." (Curtis, 12:46)
- Discussion of how effective government requires tough, sometimes imperfect, practical choices—not false pursuit of "perfection":
"That search for perfection is one of the most dangerous things. Like you can't have..." (Curtis, 16:57)
6. "Fix Everything Switch" and Political Engineering
- Satirical "Fix Everything" light switch meme discussed; ridiculing the fantasy that systemic problems are solved by flipping a simple switch or “principled” gesture.
"You have this ridiculous fantasy where you can just press the switch... The middle ground is not switch pressing." (Peter and Curtis, 17:49-18:24)
7. Curtis Yarvin's Technical Journey and Economic Insight
- Urbit: Yarvin’s history of trying to rewrite both computer science and government.
- He details his early work on Urbit—an operating system/network with digital property at its core.
- The proprietary value of digital addresses, native protocols, and scarcity anticipating NFT/blockchain concepts.
- Failed attempts to monetize a programming language led him to architectural insights shared with Bitcoin:
"The way you sell a programming language is you don't. Because actually the way the programming language is adopted is because it is the native language of an operating system." (Curtis, 50:21)
8. Austrian Economics, the Origin of Money, & Bitcoin
- Roots tracing back to his doubts about modern economics and enlightenment by the Austrian school (esp. Mises).
"Modern macroeconomics... I'm just like, what even is this?" (Curtis, 62:13)
- The “regression theorem,” why money must start from some value, and how that relates to Bitcoin.
- Story of the Icelandic fisherman using fish, then axes, as "stores of value"—and why only non-producible assets like gold/Bitcoin can serve as true money:
"Sven has no choice but to choose a store of value... his second idea is, all right, I'm going to store something that keeps. I'm going to store axes... Axes go to the moon... but what must go up come, must come down." (Curtis, 91:27-94:39) "We need a form of money that you cannot produce." (Peter, 94:54) "Gold is pretty good... but Bitcoin is the first money that cannot be artificially created." (Curtis, 95:00-95:45)
- Menger’s “On the Origin of Money” and the bimetallic standard (gold/silver)—how network effects create a unique dominant currency.
9. Why Bitcoin, Not Bitcoin Cash? Why Gold, Not Platinum?
- Once a standard takes hold, network effects enshrine it for practical and social reasons, not “inherent worth.”
"If you have a perfect money, there's no need for any other money... that's what we call in computer science a standard." (Curtis, 95:45)
10. On Being "Almost Satoshi"—Personal Prehistory of Bitcoin
- Yarvin relates how, in the early 2000s, his technical discoveries in digital scarcity anticipated cryptocurrencies:
- He essentially invented the economic layer of digital-scarcity property, even designing what would become familiar as NFTs/Solana.
"If you just abstracted this and you said, hey, there is a cryptographic registry of who owns what... I even designed something that really should have been used, which was by Bitcoin..." (Curtis, 104:35)
- He lacked only the insight of the blockchain and proof of work.
"I'm not Satoshi. Okay? I'm really, really, really, really not Satoshi. I had the motive, the opportunity, and the propensity, but I'm not Satoshi." (Curtis, 105:58)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On political systems:
"Just assume the worst case scenario about any field or any system of ideas is things have been hosed since the 17th century." (Curtis, 00:14)
-
On the yearning for realness:
"They are the same person on camera and off camera. Now let's think about who Keir Starmer is off camera. Does he even exist?" (Curtis, 07:31)
-
On switches, quick fixes, and political delusion:
"You have this ridiculous fantasy where you can just press the switch. It's simply not possible to press the switch. To be honest, it's quite frankly terrifying that you even think of pressing the switch." (Peter/Curtis, 17:49-18:09)
-
On populism and power:
"If you have parties A and B and they're contending for power, and party A cares only about power and party B cares about anything other than power, party A is going to win and party B is going to lose." (Curtis, 29:20)
-
On the economics of modernity:
"Things were already hosed in the 17th century... if only you knew how bad things really are." (Curtis, 79:43/80:53, referencing the 4chan meme)
-
On Bitcoin's core theoretical insight:
"Maybe, basically, if people understand the theory, they will see that the theory predicts that a worthless asset can in fact become worth trillions of dollars as a result of essentially the restandardization of money." (Curtis, 95:45)
Timestamps for Important Segments
- Opening thesis – "Things are hosed": 00:00
- Honest leaders and authenticity: 02:08—08:23
- Failure modes of populism and democracy: 10:00—18:47
- Case study on Bukele: 12:29—16:57
- "Fix Everything switch" meme: 17:49—18:24
- Three forms of government, why monarchy?: 18:47—26:17
- Technical journey, Urbit backstory: 34:40—50:21
- Austrian economics, money, Mises/Gold: 59:41—70:11
- Inflation and malinvestment, "Sven and the axes": 91:27—95:45
- Bitcoin as perfect, non-producible money: 95:45—99:56
- Personal prehistory of digital scarcity: 103:36—105:58
- On "almost being Satoshi": 105:58—108:18
Overall Tone & Style
This is a marathon, freewheeling discussion. Curtis's tone is provocative, darkly witty, and unfiltered—mixing acerbic institutional critique, learned historical references, inside jokes, and deep technical analogies. Peter matches his candor, grounding abstract theory in contemporary realities and Bitcoin.
Useful for Listeners Who Missed the Episode
- Understand Curtis Yarvin's core thesis: Modern systems have been broken for centuries. We shouldn’t be surprised at the failures around us; the rot is deep.
- Practical analogies (e.g., "Sven and the axes" or "Fix Everything switch") demystify high-concept economic/game theory through colorful stories.
- Historic sweep: Connects Roman emperors, the English Constitution, and the gold standard to cryptography, digital property, and Bitcoin.
- Personal narratives: Yarvin's own nearly-Satoshi moment, the birth of Urbit, and the direct influences shaping modern cryptocurrencies.
If you crave big ideas on political and economic failure, the story of digital money, or want to hear one of Bitcoin’s intellectual godfathers think out loud, this deep, candid exchange is essential listening.