#123 - Ian Rogers - The Coming 25 Years Will Be Unrecognisable - AGI, Quantum & The End of Labour

Summary

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The Peter McCormack Show #123: Ian Rogers – "The Coming 25 Years Will Be Unrecognisable — AGI, Quantum & The End of Labour"

Date: October 28, 2025
Host: Peter McCormack
Guest: Ian Rogers
Theme: Navigating a world rapidly changing through technology — AGI, quantum computing, AI, and the deep impacts on culture, education, labour, and politics.

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Episode Overview

In this rich and energetic conversation, Peter McCormack and technologist Ian Rogers reflect on the pace of technological change and its seismic impacts on culture, music, education, labour, and politics. They explore what it means to be human in the face of artificial general intelligence (AGI) and quantum computing, question existing models of education and employment, and debate how society can — and should — adapt. Their lively dialogue weaves personal stories with big-picture thinking, always returning to the central challenge: how to remain grounded, humane, and curious in a future that will be "unrecognisable" within a generation.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Technology, Culture, and the Enduring Human Element

00:00–03:13 | 10:14–11:03

• Ian opens with the idea that "people don't fall in love with robots, they fall in love with humans...there’s always a humanness" (A, 00:00).
• The duo riff on how culture and technology are inextricably linked, especially in music ("It's impossible to extract culture from technology," A, 03:13).
• The democratization from zines to the internet allowed outsider voices to find networks: "Anyone who ever made a zine with a photocopier and a Sharpie understood the Internet the moment they saw it" (A, 04:26).
• The shift from god, to state, to network (referencing Balaji Srinivasan) — "We are living in a world now where we value the opinions of our network neighbors more than our physical neighbors" (A, 10:31).

2. Music in the Algorithmic Era — Nostalgia, Discovery, & the Changing Canon

03:13–10:14

• Peter laments algorithm-driven, "bollocks music like Drill," and the death of the album as a cultural object.
• Ian counters that every generation is nostalgic and can't see the vibrancy of contemporary creative undergrounds ("Somebody sent me a pile of contemporary punk rock records, and...every single one of them were incredible. And I'd never heard of any of them." A, 08:04).
• Technology continually disrupts not only how music is made and distributed, but what it means to be an artist or a fan.

3. Education and Preparing the Next Generation

11:37–14:48 | 16:37–18:25

• With AGI at hand, Peter asks: “If we're sending kids to school at the moment to memorize facts, while they've got a supercomputer with AI, what are we actually doing? How the fuck do you prepare a kid now?" (C, 11:50)
• Ian shares his family's educational experiences; his daughter’s progressive U.S. school focused on thinking and problem-solving — “They try to make a good person who can think for themselves” (A, 12:54).
• Traditional systems, like in France, are stuck in rote memorization, effectively “trading an LLM” (C, 13:34), ill-suited for the future.
• The model of “learning by doing” is celebrated through Peter’s story of his son, who flourished more as a podcast producer than as an art student.

4. The Evolving Nature of Work & The End of Labour?

18:25–20:29 | 21:25–23:29 | 25:06–28:35

• College is not for memorizing facts, says Ian, but “a period of time when you’re too old to live at home and you’re too young to be in the real world” (A, 18:25).
• The job landscape is radically shifting — mid-level workers with AI skills are replacing entry-level graduates: “People cannot get... graduate jobs...handled by mid tier people who use an AI instead of grads” (C, 16:38).
• The history of job displacement: "Those blue collar jobs were removed 25 years ago. It's like a continual hollowing out" (A, 20:30).
• Ian warns: “We overestimate how many jobs [AI] is going to remove in the near term. I think we underestimate the fact that it is going to materially change the relationship between labor and capital” (A, 28:19).
• The notion of human labour having negative value is raised (“He's pointing to a world where human labor actually has a negative value. And there's your change in the relationship between labor and capital.” A, 28:52).

“Every technological revolution is a bubble... The bubble bursts, and then you get 30 years of sustained growth. You should expect the same thing with respect to AI.” (A, 27:46)

5. Unrecognisable Futures: AGI, Quantum, Infinite Compute/Energy

25:06–29:12 | 66:46–67:35

• Looming convergence: “We’ve got these convergences...bitcoin, AI, quantum...[are we heading toward] an incredible world or a horrific dystopian world?” (C, 25:06).
• We’re “close to AGI...to quantum computing...look at what’s happening in robotics. 25 years from now the world is unrecognizable, and that will be the world that our kids fight and exist in” (A, 00:00; A, 67:02).

6. Surviving Polarization in the Age of the Network

30:04–37:55

• The “network state” splits our identities between physical and digital worlds — dangerous group dynamics can emerge (“If they go into that forum, the network...‘I’m gonna go to Walmart and shoot some people.’ And they go, ‘Do it, bro.’" A, 30:28).
• Extreme views attract more attention; the center is lost (“Now we have these extreme viewpoints which actually get a lot of attention. And so it's almost like the opposite of, you know, the middle point of view really doesn't represent everyone, but these extreme points of view really don't represent everyone either." A, 33:40).
• On social progress and normalization: “You're making jokes, you're normalizing who we are...by doing this, you're making it part of culture" (C, 35:00).

7. The Challenge of Curation, Media, and Modern Dilemmas

38:51–42:06

• Peter’s podcast faces the YouTube “shock and bait” dilemma; performance rewards sensationalism.
• Ian draws parallels to punk and hip hop: “The shock was the bait and the politics was on the other side...” (A, 41:14).
• The case for complexity — bring people in for the sizzle, give them the steak.

8. Navigating Identity, Tribalism, and Having an Opinion

42:17–49:35

• Peter feels caught between worlds: old left-wing friends think he’s a fascist for criticizing welfare and supporting “libertarian” economics.
• Ian’s advice: Stay curious, informed, and host diverse perspectives. Echoing Rick Rubin, “He lets other people speak...he lets them pontificate...then he adds that kind of to his worldview continually. And that's what you do with your show as well” (A, 46:55).
• There’s wisdom in holding multiple, even contradictory truths: “You can interview people from completely different ends of the spectrum, and you end up sitting there and go, 'Oh, yeah, you've made a good point'... That's what it means to be human, I think” (C, 48:01).

9. The Future of Politics: Incentive Alignment, Leadership, and “Network State” Governance

49:35–59:40

• “Why would you want that job [in politics]?” Peter laments (A, 49:59).
• American politics, for all its flaws, still possesses a system that, though “messy,” works and advances (A, 53:37).
• Political representation is becoming impossible in diverse societies; maybe governance should focus on essentials and remove ideology (“My job [as mayor] is to keep you safe, keep things clean, keep the potholes out of the street...then stay the hell out of your way and do it with the lowest possible cost base...That’s a very network state approach to governance" A, 58:00).

“The broad arc...many years ago...we moved from God to state; now we're making this transition from state to network...I'd like to have a peaceful transition from state to network.” (A, 55:47; 58:36)

10. Redistribution, UBI, and the Lessons of the BBC

61:49–65:50

• Can we build a fairer world through libertarian voluntarism, or is some redistribution justified?
• Ian notes growing acceptance of “arbitrary” solutions in design of society (e.g., UBI for creators modeled on the BBC license): “I'm becoming comfortable with taxation being a bit arbitrary. Let’s pick a number...give that money to creative people and see what they do with it...(C, 64:07; A, 64:07).
• The workable answer is messy but necessary: "Yes, it's arbitrary, no, it won't be fair. But yes, it's better than not doing it. So let's fucking go." (A, 65:37)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On humanness:

  “People don’t fall in love with robots, they fall in love with humans. That’s why they had VJs on MTV.” — Ian Rogers (A, 00:00; 67:02)

• On the pace of change:

  “25 years from now the world is unrecognizable, and that will be the world that our kids just fight and exist in. Just like, you know, we've fought and existed in this one.” — Ian Rogers (A, 67:02)

• On education:

  “What are you doing? Because you are basically, you're creating people for industrialization.” — Ian Rogers (A, 13:34)

• On music, nostalgia, and the underground:

  “In that year, we were looking at the underground...and then today, we’re judging music based on the Billboard Hot 100. And that's where we're old.” — Ian Rogers (A, 07:56)

• On adapting for the AI era:

  “We overestimate how many jobs it's going to remove in the near term. I think we underestimate...it’s going to materially change the relationship between labor and capital.” — Ian Rogers (A, 28:19)

• On political engagement:

  “Criticism is only allowed when it comes with an alternate proposal.” — Ian Rogers (A, 22:39)

• On polarization and media:

  “They’ve connected the two extremes to have a fight. And we’re like there with the popcorn.” — Peter McCormack (C, 36:04)

• On the future of redistribution:

  “Let’s pick a number. Let’s do it tomorrow. Let’s pick a number...and give that money to creative people and see what they do with it...Yes, it's arbitrary, no, it won't be fair. But yes, it's better than not doing it. So let's fucking go.” — Ian Rogers (A, 65:37)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:00 – The enduring pull of humanness in a high-tech world; MTV and VJs
• 03:13 – The unbreakable link between culture and technology; zines and the early web
• 11:37 – Is current education preparing kids for AGI?
• 16:37 – Real-life case study: Peter’s son and the new skills economy
• 21:25 – Ian on changing labor markets: “A continual hollowing out...”
• 25:06–29:12 – Are we heading to utopia or dystopia? AI as a labor disruptor
• 30:04–37:55 – Polarized digital networks and the loss of a mainstream
• 38:51 – The YouTube “bait and switch” dilemma in modern media
• 42:17 – Navigating identity across political and social spectra
• 49:35 – Is political leadership doomed? The impossible incentives of public service
• 55:47–59:40 – Can local, network-state governance be the answer?
• 61:49 – Redistribution, UBI, and arbitrary social solutions
• 65:50 – Fair use, copyright, and AI-generated music; the BBC as societal model
• 66:46–67:35 – Closing: “The world will be unrecognizable” in 25 years

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Takeaways

• The future is coming fast, and it’s “unrecognizable.” AGI, quantum computing, infinite compute/energy — all promise a total reordering of society.
• Technology and culture are forever entwined, for better or worse.
• The best we can do for the next generation: Foster curiosity, creativity, and resilience instead of rote learning.
• We cannot wholly resist or predict the tides of change. But we can shape how humane, fair, and meaningful our lives and societies remain.
• Stay curious, stay grounded, stay human.

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Hosts:

• Peter McCormack (@PeterMcCormack)
• Ian Rogers (@iancr)

For fans of Peter McCormack's blend of introspective inquiry, punk spirit, and disruptive optimism, this episode is both a touchstone and a provocateur for thinking about the next 25 years and beyond.

Transcript

[A]

This is why these things aren't black and white. At the end of the day, we're human beings. Bob Pittman is famous for saying, people don't fall in love with robots, they fall in love with humans. That's why they had VJs on MTV. And MTV would not be MTV without VJs. Yeah, there's always a humanness. We as humans will always be, you know, drawn to that. I think it's a question of, like, you know, what exactly. Like, what exactly is the role of this animal on planet Earth 100 years from now? I think we underestimate how different that is going to be even 25 years from now. We're close to AGI. We're close to quantum computing. Look at what's happening in robotics. 25 years from now. The world is unrecognizable, and that will be the world that our kids fight and exist in. Just like, you know, we've fought and existed in this one.

[B]

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[C]

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[B]

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[C]

And the other one I do is crisscross jump.

[A]

Oh, that's a good one.

[C]

That was the first.

[A]

But that's also. It's also an impressive one because you got to do. Some of them try to rom, but they can't rhyme like this.

[C]

Yo, yo.

[A]

Some of them try to run, but they can't run like this. It's the first try to run, but they can't.

[C]

First vinyl ever bought.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Seven inch vinyl.

[A]

That's a. You know, crisscross are underrated. It's a real Jermaine Dupri production. It's Jermaine Dupri realizing, like, I'm not gonna be a star. So I'm gonna find these kids, I'm gonna make them a novelty. I'm gonna make them stars. And he did it. One of them died. Mickey Mack Daddy. Yeah. I think One of them died.

[B]

Mack Daddy.

[A]

By the way, the second Kris Kross record is totally underrated.

[C]

I've never even listened to it.

[A]

Yeah, check it out. It's like a real. It's like post chronic, you know what I mean? So, like, the music tried to kind of change to post chronic.

[C]

We were gonna talk about technology. We could end up talking about music for about an hour. Do you know what the funny thing is, is the algorithms are destroying music. Is this no country for Old Men? You know, the end of no country for All Men?

[A]

No.

[C]

You must have seen the film no country for All Men.

[A]

No.

[C]

Do you watch films?

[A]

No.

[C]

Okay. The film no country for Old Men, it's. It's an amazing, amazing film. And it's basically a guy finds a bunch of money in the desert, steals it, and then he gets chased by.

[B]

The criminals who want.

[C]

It's brutal, savage film.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I think it's. I can't remember. The director was. But at the end, there's, like two old policemen talking about it, talking about the world and then saying, it's not really for them anymore. Cause it's like no country for Old Men. And so my kids love some bollocks music like Drill. I think Drill's bollocks. And I think the algorithms have destroyed music, the destroyed albums for most of us and not doing drugs.

[A]

You know, I think that the challenge is so we can definitely. This does really fit into my worldview because it's impossible to extract culture from technology.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

In other words, like, we'll never have another Beatles, because we'll never have another Beatles on Ed Sullivan. We'll never have another Dead Kennedys, because, you know, if you were 19 years old in 1979, and you had some ideas you wanted to share with your peers, how were you gonna do it? No one's gonna let you on the radio. No one's gonna let you on. They're not gonna put you in the newspaper. You're gonna make a zine, like a fanzine with a photocopier and try to, you know, distribute it to your friends, or you're gonna make a seven inch, you know?

[C]

That's how I started making zines. I started. I did a scene called the Plug.

[A]

I did not know that. What was it like?

[C]

I managed four issues. I interviewed Korn, Pantera, Slayer.

[A]

What year was this?

[C]

God, I was 15, so. And I'm.

[A]

You interviewed Pantera when you were 15?

[C]

Yeah. That was a phone call. That was a phone call. Them and Slayer were phone calls.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Korn was in Person. It was their first UK show, Astoria 2. I was the first person to interview them.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Biohazard. I interviewed Dog Eat Dog, all the hardcore and punk at the time.

[A]

Okay, yeah. Anyway, so you know what I always say, and I wrote this in my chapter in the Beastie Boys book. Anyone who ever made a zine with a photocopier and a Sharpie understood the Internet the moment they saw it.

[C]

Yes, instantly.

[A]

Because you're like, oh, here's a way I can get to people without the gatekeepers.

[C]

Dude, listen. So this is so funny. It's so funny you should say it. So my friend Tom is the one who I made it with, right? And we used to go to his dad's estate agency, like, property sales company, and we'd sit there with a photocopy, a photo, you know, and page after page, off page, all day long, staple it and then go and sell it to concerts. It would take all day to make like 300 copies.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

That's why we stopped in the end, because it was too much. The Internet starts and I'm like, huh. So I start. So that summer, I was living in High Wycombe, I started to learn to code html4, because I was going to bring back the zine online. And then in the end, I just got paid so much for making websites. I saved there, by the way.

[A]

You know, my version of this is in the early 90s, in the mid-90s, we had a magazine called Grand Royal. The Beastie Boys had a magazine called Grand Royal. And then in the year 2000, we made grandroyal.com as, you know, this online magazine and kind of, you know, record label, merch company. I mean, Grand Royal existed as a record label before me, and, you know, we reinvented it in kind of 1999 because of the Internet. And I've even thought that. I've had that thought, you know, every. Almost every year I have. I still own grandroyal.com and every year I have the thought and I talk to Mike D about it, like, is this the year? Should we bring it back?

[C]

Bring it back?

[A]

I mean, you know, it's. There's a great way to get. But the thing is, if Jelly Biafra from the dead Kennedys was 19 today, he wouldn't start a band, he would start a podcast or a YouTube channel or a TikTok. And that's why you can't extract. So I don't think it's just that. I think that that technology is. I don't think it's just that algorithms have killed music. Right. I think it's just that times have changed. You know what's a great listen is the. The history of rock music in 500 songs.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

And because what's interesting about it is it's a podcast. It's epic. It's. It's still ongoing. I think he's around 200 right now.

[C]

Okay, let me ask you, how many of the songs in it were from the last decade?

[A]

Well, he'll get there.

[C]

Oh, he's doing it just purely over time.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

This is the.

[A]

Starts with Benny Goodman.

[C]

This is.

[A]

And I think he's up to, like, cashmere.

[C]

You remember my producer, Danny.

[A]

Oh, absolutely.

[C]

Right. Do you know the argument I have with him about music? I'm like, if you do the greatest hundred rock songs of all time, how many are in there from the last decade?

[A]

You know, here's the thing. This is also this. This might be old country, you know, new. What is it? New country for old men.

[C]

No country for old men.

[A]

No country for old men. It might be that. It might be Case. Case in point.

[B]

Don't edit that.

[A]

Senior moments. Case in point. Here's what I say. This is a great exercise. Whenever somebody tells you music was better before it was.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Here's what you have to ask them. Here's my question for you, then. Yeah, we can do this. I don't have my phone, but when. What year do you think it was? Great.

[C]

There was that year, I think, where 10 Siamese Dream 90 sound guard is about then.

[A]

Yeah, 90.

[C]

That was about.

[A]

The thing is, though, is if you go look at the Billboard Hot 100 from that year.

[B]

Sucks.

[A]

Sucks. And so here's the problem. In that year, we were looking at the underground.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then today we're judging music based on the Billboard Hot 100. And that's where we're old.

[C]

Well, so I guess that's fair. Cause.

[A]

Because I'll even give you an example. I said this Dead Kennedys thing out loud lately that, like, oh, punk rock can't exist. Somebody sent me a pile of contemporary punk rock records, and I just started going down them, and every single one of them were incredible. And I'd never heard of any of them.

[C]

So there's an album I've just discovered from a band which is the first time, I think, in maybe 10, 15 years where an album's blown my mind. There's a band called Navarro. They're like a hardcore metalcore band, but they're. But if you heard it. It's really experimental. But my Point to Danny was it's not that. It's like the top hundred albums of all time. Like the top.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

How many are from the last decade? I said to him, my. And I stand by this thesis. The last great record ever made was Back to Black.

[A]

Yeah. To me, that even is post some of my favorite records. You know what I mean? But I hear you. I do think there is a technology thing with this, though, Right. Because the record itself, if you think about it, the album was a pretty short period of time. The great thing about the history of rock music and 500 songs is that that podcast could also be called the History of Technology and Music. It could also be called the history of. Of. It could be called a history of racism in america in the 20th century.

[C]

Right.

[A]

It could be called a history of exploitation of artists in the 20th century. But also, you realize that there was no such thing as the album before, you know, Blonde on Blonde. Really. Right.

[C]

You know, kids don't care anymore.

[A]

Yeah. And they didn't care before, by the way. Right. And you realize great. Other great things, like, the only reason we really have music radio is because of television.

[C]

But did you ever queue up for an album?

[A]

Did you ever go before, hell yeah. 1992. Check your head, Beastie Boys. I stood in line.

[C]

So I did it for Wu Tang forever.

[A]

Ah, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which would probably been kind of disappointing once you got that one on the. Because that was. That was no 36 chambers.

[C]

But it opens.

[A]

No offense. No offense, Bobby.

[C]

It opens well. Yeah, it opens really, really well. But, yeah, it was disappointing. I mean, Mo. They did a few songs after that. Yeah, yeah, but that's the point on the technology. And then I go back, because I was thinking to say to you, like, how do we start this? How do we start this interview?

[A]

I think the combination of technology and culture is a. Is a. Well, it's a real. That is like, not a small. It's a fun topic, but it's also. It's also very real. Because I think, also, if you think about this, you know what Balaji talks about, right? The move from God to state to network.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It's all.

[A]

It's all there. We are. We are living in a world now where we value our. The opinions of our network neighbors more than our physical neighbors. Sure, but. But that's what you and I did, and it's why we made zines. Right. It's why I read Thrasher magazine and I wasn't on the football team, you know what I mean? Because I valued. I Lived in this. You know, my network didn't exist in the small town in Goshen, Indiana, where I lived. It lived in Thrasher magazine. It lived in Maximum rock and Roll. And then that's also why the Internet was not like, oh my God, what is this? It was like, oh my God, I can actually meet people who like the same music as me.

[C]

And venues existed in venues.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So my network was who I skateboarded with on a Friday night, a venue called Esquires in Bedford. But it was also the Water Rats in London. It was also the Astoria too. Cause you go to shows, you see the same people, and then you go back to school and you think, everyone here's a dumbass. But let me just say this. Cause I was thinking on the way over, I was thinking, how do I start this today? And I think I've got a way to start. But it starts. It's a hard way of starting things in that. Okay. When you're 10 years old, 12 years old, you know, you've got to do middle school, senior school, and then I might go to college and then I'll get a job.

[B]

Right.

[C]

But if you've got a. I mean, my daughter now is 15. She's going to finish school in three years. If she goes to university, it's six years. And the pace of change that we're seeing now is how do you even prepare them for that?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And if we're sending kids to school at the moment to memorize facts, what. While they've got a supercomputer with AI, what are we actually doing? How do you prepare that? How the fuck do you prepare a kid now?

[A]

Yeah. Well, so I guess I should tell my personal experience here. You know, I had a kid when I was 17 and you know, she's 35 now. I also have a 19 year old, an 11 year old, and I have a granddaughter as well. So you never told me your granddad. Yeah, yeah. So I think about this question a lot, and especially because, you know, schools here in France are from 20 years ago in America. Right. So I've had very different education experiences where I homeschooled my older daughter for a number of years. She went on to go to MIT for undergrad and she has a PhD from Stanford. My middle daughter went to a progressive private school in the US Which I would actually posit is the best model we have. Because to answer your question, they don't try to teach you facts and memorization. They try to make a good person who can think for themselves.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

And I think that's the best shot we have. Make people that are, you know, try to create people that are, that are good individuals who can solve problems when confronted with one. Yeah. Know how to use the tools that are at their disposal because those tools are going to evolve a lot over the next few years and that can really think about their place in society and the future. That's the best we have. And then I see what they do in French schools, which is memorization of facts and French history and, And I say, why in the world would you do this? What are you doing? You know, what are you doing? Because you are basically, you're creating people for industrialization.

[C]

Hold on. You're basically trading an LLM.

[A]

Yeah, that's what it is.

[C]

Yeah, it's a very basic shitty LLM.

[A]

It's. And I think it, I do think it is a real disservice. So, you know, I would like to think that that is. But I also think that, look, you know, the, like, culturally, in the U.S. if there's a, you know, at a progressive American school, they're, they're going to, you know, if there's new, there's new research tomorrow, they're going to try to integrate that research into the school today. That's just the mentality of a progressive school in the us Whereas if you ask them at a French school, why do they still do it this way? Their answer will be, because that's how we've always done it. Right. And I think it does change. And you know, our daughter has changed schools over, over time and the school is actually quite good, I would say, on a relative basis. But if you, if you, that's comparing it to other French schools and if you compare it to that progressive la education, I've, you know, I've been in France now for 10 years and I simply haven't encountered anything like that here. But I think, you know, like many things here, 20 years from now that will exist here, but I think that they're just a little. Tradition is so. Tradition is so valued here that they're. That they're very slow. Slow to change.

[B]

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[C]

You've met my son, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. So school wasn't for him, right? If he was here, he'll tell you he didn't like it. He was a creative, he liked painting, but he went to university, did art. Eight months in, I got a letter from the university. Actually, it was for him. And I just opened it and it was just like, your attendance rate is 38%. You need to come and see us. So I went up to, no, he came home for Easter and I was like, what's going on? And he's been having a good time, he was failing, he didn't like it. And I said, you've got two choices. I think I said to him, I said, you can, you can go back, retake the year on a course you don't want to do on something you're not enjoying, or you come and work for me, but if you work for me, I'm gonna ride you hard on this. So he said, I'll come and work for you. So he's been a producer on the podcast now for nearly two years. Right. He had to learn firstly just to edit clips and put those out. I didn't help him. He went and learns it. He's then sat in two to three interviews a week with people like yourself, Liz Truss, various politicians, economists, and watched a deep interview, a two hour interview, and then he sat in a car with me when we discussed it on the way home. And he's now employed, he's got a good salary, he's got savings, he's got bitcoin, he's got no debt, he's kind of figured the world out. And then he's got all his friends who've come back from university. They can't get a fucking job, Ian. They can't get a job. People cannot get. All those kind of like graduate jobs are now being handled by mid tier people who use an AI instead of grads. And so he's just, just by luck has been positioned, ready for where the world's going. He's like ahead of the curve for his age. But there are tens of thousands of kids who are starting university courses now for things to learn, things that are going to be wiped out by AI. And there's people who are leaving who can't get jobs because of AI. And I'm like, what do we do about that?

[A]

Well, look, I think I made a few observations there. First of all, what is college for? College is not for learning facts. Right. College is that period of time when you're too old to live at home and you're too young to be in the real world.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And you go out there. So when he was out there having a good time, to me, that's what you're supposed to be doing in college. You know, when I look at, when I look at my college experience, I got super lucky. I did things with digital music outside of my computer science coursework, which is what became my life, you know, so I had a good basis. I studied computer science at Indiana University. It was a good education, but really everything I learned, I learned like fucking around with computers outside of my classes, you know what I mean? Everything that I used, I came with that. And I think that's the case for. I don't think that's new, you know, And I think it's also just a fact that it's the things that make us different that make us successful. I don't think that's any different. You know, I mean, I look at, you know, Kids that I was in, I dropped out of grad school. I did a year of a PhD program and then dropped out to go on tour with the Beastie Boys. I have a friend who I blinked and he had two PhDs, you know, and I was like, wow, I could have had. That could have been me. I could have, I could be Dr. Rogers. At the same time, you know, he's had a great career. Of course he has a degree, you know, in computer science and a degree in cognitive science and. But we worked together at Apple, but I was the GM of music and he was, you know, an engineer elsewhere in the company. So I think it's some ways my career has been more interesting, at least for me. Right. Because of the weirdness that I injected into it, you know, like the off path things.

[C]

Hold on. Didn't you both just find the right path?

[A]

Yeah, we found that. No, I agree. It's not a criticism at all. My point is that I think that life is a story and your CV is a story. And really your job is to imagine a story and then live it. You've done that, I've done that. Lots of our friends have done that. I think what too many people do is they live someone else's story or they think maybe the state owes them a story, you know what I mean? Like the crass. Do they owe us a living? Of course they do. Of course they do.

[C]

You and I are different. We.

[B]

I think that.

[A]

I think that, you know, if you. Look, the point I was gonna make too is. I hear what you're saying, but I grew up in Goshen, Indiana. In so many ways, my life is this story of America, right? My parents grew up at this amazing time to be an American, post war America, where you could have a factory job and buy a, and feed your family a very short period of time. And you know, I went to college and I was the first person in my family to go to college. I studied computer science. I moved to a blue state. Because of politics? No, because it's where the jobs were for what I did. What would be the life for me if I had stayed in Indiana? You know, like, it's not. We're talking now about the knowledge jobs that have been removed. Those blue collar jobs were removed 25 years ago. You know what I mean? Like, it's like a continual hollowing out. So it's not the start of something, it's the continuation of something. And so you're always trying to move up market away from that.

[C]

But is it a hockey Stick at the moment.

[A]

I don't know. I think that we. I don't know. I think every generation thinks that, like, you know, their parents don't get it and their kids don't appreciate it, but we can't all be right, you know?

[C]

Yeah, but you and I are weirdos, let's be honest.

[A]

Sure, yeah.

[C]

Like, we're weirdos, but I don't.

[A]

Is there another path? This is my thing. Is. Is there a. Is there a mainstream? Right? Has there ever been? You know, maybe. Yeah, I think, you know, I have a friend who's a Brit and a kind of a. Like a lover of history, and he's the one that said to me, the post war America is the greatest time to have been born anywhere ever in the history of humanity. Right. Because you had. You had all the chips at that moment. And I think that part of what we're realizing now and a lot of what gets covered on your show is largely the concept of the fourth turning right. And I think it makes a lot of sense because you have that long period of peace post World War II that can't go on forever. And then the question is, what do we all do with it? You know? And my, My, My philosophy is that criticism is only allowed when it comes with an alternate proposal.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Right. And so, you know, if we're going to kind of criticize the state we're in, we need to propose something else.

[C]

I'm going to. Firstly, I'm going to steal that.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Every time I hear.

[A]

I had to realize that once I moved here to France because I was starting working at lvmh. And what I realized is that there's this cultural thing where they like to shit on your idea. And then. And then what they do is they, like, over time, then they kind of like, well, if it turns out you were right, they just stay quiet and people forget that they were negative back then. And then if you were, it turns out you were wrong. They say, I told you so. And so I had to, like, actually say, listen, I put an idea on the table. I want to hear a better one, or shut the fuck up. And I think that that's. That's the way I want to live. Generally unconscious.

[C]

You're a Yank and I'm a Brit, and we're in a room full of French people.

[A]

They don't mind.

[C]

They're not gonna come up with the pitchforks, attack us. Yeah, look, so again, I go through the lens of my children. My son's good. We've sorted him out. Like I've. I've proven the model. I've proven the model that memorizing facts was a waste of time for him. He just needed to be doing things, learning skills and, and pushed and pushed hard. But yeah, he just needs about that learning skills and get. Being given real knowledge. So I look at my daughter and I go, I. Right now, my theory on my daughter is every single day she spends in school now is pretty much a waste of time.

[A]

I feel the same way, but I'm cool with it.

[C]

She can finish this year, but does she go and do A levels? Does she do senior school? In my view, it is a waste of time. Personally, I would rather take her out and say, I'll homeschool you, or you pick something you want to do or you come and work for me, or. So when I went to see Balaji recently, I went out to his network State to see it. It was such a fascinating moment with him. So I'm walking around with him and Connor and he's talking about, like, university being mainly a waste of money and time at the moment. And so I explained the Connor story and he was like, yeah, this is just the modern version of your son coming to work on the farm. He's half your DNA, he thinks, half like you, he's now working on the farm, preparing to take over the farm. It makes total sense. Like, that's what we need to go back to, really, in a modern world. I was like, huh. So then I was like, my daughter needs to come and work on the farm. But so that's. That's like, that's what I think for her. But then I think wider because we're in this world with. Yeah, we did the. I did the panel yesterday where it's got the convergence of bitcoin AI Quantum.

[A]

That was a great panel, by the way. Thank you for doing that.

[C]

Thank you. Well, there's smart people on it. We've got these convergence these technologies where we head towards this potential singularity. We've got infinite compute. We're going to have infinite knowledge, potentially infinite energy. And does that take us to this incredible world or does it take us to this fucking horrific dystopian world? I don't actually know.

[A]

No. And I think it depends on who you are and where you sit in that new world. Right. Just like everything else in the past. Again, as somebody who grew up in Indiana and had a kid at 17, I probably narrow escaped living in a trailer park and working at Walmart and eating mayonnaise sandwiches, you know what I mean? There's definitely another outcome to the story that could have been, had it not been for circumstances that I kind of lucked into or made my own luck or whatever. So I think that. My point is that we always have that. A couple things. First of all, there's a great book called the Case Against Education, written by the same guy who wrote the graphic novel Open Borders. I recommend reading both of them. The way he puts it, though, is about the way that we've built the educational system. It's sort of like if you're at a concert and you can't see standing up is a great strategy unless everyone stands up. And that's kind of what we're doing with education, is we just kind of are pushing people through this system, and what we're really doing is creating a stratification and a hierarchy, Right? And I see it. I really see it in action again. My oldest daughter has a PhD from Stanford. Like, she, you know, we all have our own challenges in life, no matter where we are in that hierarchy. But can I get a job? Is probably not one of them, you know, and, you know, so it's a system, and I think that that's a way to acknowledge it. And then, of course, that system will change. And I think there are some interesting ways to change it. If you look at what Xavier Niel is doing here in Paris with ecole Carandou, Ecole 42, 42 being the meaning of Life from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. You know, he has a free school where the only thing you do from the moment you start to moment you end is code, right? And people talk about, like, AI taking away coding. I really don't think that that's true. I think we're all computer operators right now. You know, like every one of us, our job effectively as a computer operator, we manage information. And now we're going to be AI operators, you know, on. On some level for now, you know. Well, and look, I think it. I do think that, you know, it's always the case that, I mean, there are givens here. You can look at the past and know some things about where we are. Every technological revolution is a bubble, you know, Carlotta Perez, Technological revolutions and financial capital. It's always a bubble. The bubble bursts, and then you get 30 years of sustained growth. You should expect the same thing with respect to AI. It's a big conversation right now. Of course it is. But secondly, also, we always overestimate the impact in the short term, and we underestimate it in the Long term. So I think. I think we overestimate how many jobs it's going to remove in the near term. I think we underestimate the fact that it is going to materially change the relationship between labor and capital. Right. And if you read the new book that's called the. What's it called? The Last Economy.

[C]

Oh, I'm gonna take this one.

[A]

Yeah, you'll like this one. And you should read his Wikipedia page too, so you know who it is you're dealing with. I mean, you know, it's a.

[C]

Hold on. Is it.

[A]

He's a controversial character.

[C]

Did you already recommend this to me?

[A]

I think I might have, yeah.

[C]

Did you send this by Carl Scanton? Oh, no, this is economy.

[A]

Yeah, the Last Economy. But he's pointing to a world where human labor actually has a negative value. And there's your change in the relationship between labor and capital. But I don't know that we can imagine what that world is or what our place within it is.

[C]

What's your thesis? What would you think?

[A]

To be honest, I really don't. No, but I have the, you know, I think that. I think if you look, you know, another book I love from a number of years ago is that book Factfulness, which points to all of the facts that, you know, we live in a. Like this is a better time to be alive today than, you know, ever in human history. Yes, right. And I think it's, you know, and the stats point to that now. I think also if you read like how to Change youe Mind, the Michael Pollan book about psychedelics, which I think is a great book. You know, one of the things that really jumps out in that book for me is that, you know, we create this world and then our children grow up in it. They're actually better suited for that world than we are. In a way. This comes back to the music conversation.

[C]

Well, that comes to the politics conversation.

[A]

They're better suited. Politics, I feel like, is maybe slightly different because structurally we live in two worlds at once. And this is where Balaji's network state comes in, in my view, because we live in this. You know, I always think about we live in two worlds at once. I don't know if you remember when, you know, somebody went to Walmart in Texas and was shooting Mexicans.

[C]

I remember.

[A]

You know, and I always think like. And really the Charlie Kirk story is a version of this, right? Where a human being lives in this physical world. And in the physical world, if they go to their neighbors houses and they knock on their doors and they say, hey, I'm gonna go to Walmart and shoot some people, they'll call the cops. Right? But if they go into that. Right. Forum, the network. Right. With, you know, those like minded people. In other words, like, if I try to go, try to find in my neighbors the hundred people who share my ideals, I might have a very hard time. But if I ask the Mark Zuckerberg machine help me find some people who share my ideals, they go, boom, here they are. And then I go, hey, I'm gonna go to Walmart and shoot some people. And they go, do it, bro. Right. We live in both of those worlds at once. And then my question is, how do you have a two party or even a multi party democracy when that's true? And I.

[C]

You have two different personalities in those.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Because I could be a dick online, but I would never be the way I am online.

[A]

And it's just like people in cars, right? People that are behind the wheel and their windows are up and they're hawking their horn and they're shouting. And then if they like got out and stood face to face, they'd be like, hey, dude, I'm sorry.

[C]

Yeah, man, let's forget about it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Hmm.

[A]

And I think it's very. I think it's very hard. I have another. I think I've told you this before, but I had a great experience a couple weeks ago. I got to meet my favorite contemporary author, a guy named John Higgs, lives down in Brighton.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

And you know, don't meet your heroes. But this was not one of those cases. Like, it was everything I had hoped for intellectually. And we had a really nice time and I hope I get to hang with him again. But he's written amazing books. A book about the KLF that you would love. He wrote a. His first book was a book about Timothy Leary. That was great. He's written kind of a revisionist history of the 20th century that is amazing. He's written two books about William Blake. He wrote a book about Doctor who, which I don't know anything about, but I'll be curious what you think. He wrote an amazing book which is about. Did you know that the first Beatles single and the first James Bond film came out on the same October day in 1962?

[B]

It did not.

[C]

But that's incredible.

[A]

He uses that as a vehicle to. To kind of talk about the last 70 years of. Of British history.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

British culture. You probably love it. He's incredible. Maybe have him on the show. Actually, he's. He's really fantastic. But he said something that has stuck in my brain, which is that, you know, in the old media world, you kind of had this mainstream thing. Like, as someone pointed out a long time ago. I think Posner wrote a piece in 2000 where he was. He was pointing out that Fox News is really a product of the Internet. Because in the old world, if you have two newspapers, they kind of drift toward the middle to get the widest audience. But when you have an unlimited spectrum, you really have to have a point of view to gather audiences. And the point that John was making, which I think is correct, is that now we have these extreme viewpoints which actually get a lot of attention. And so it's almost like the opposite of, you know, the middle point of view really doesn't represent everyone, but these extreme points of view really don't represent everyone either.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So he made a very specific point that I think is worth pointing out. He said he has a friend who's trans. And when he talks to his friend, he's like, there's this incredible irony that the theme is that there's trans hate. He said, but me, as a trans person, I feel more understood than I did 25 years ago. And I think we both know that. We both know that you could. You know, we are more. I mean, I think about it when I was growing up, what it meant even to be gay before the TV show Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. We're now, you know, in. Around the people that I know. I'm not gonna make any judgments, but there's no. There is no judgment.

[C]

Well, have you heard on this?

[A]

A bit? A bit.

[C]

So he. So he talks about this trans woman called Daphne, his show. And he talks about it, he said. And she's, like, laughing through the entire show, cracking up, laughing every joke. He said. He sat there and he's like, yeah, I got some trans jokes coming. Anyway, so he tells his trans jokes. Daphne is, like, crying with laughter through them, and he's like. Anyway, he says he finishes the show and Daphne's at the bar, goes up and has a drink with Daphne and chats to her, and he just explains it. I was a bit worried about the trans jokes and how you would react. And Daphne was like, because you're making jokes, you're normalizing who we are. Like, the gay jokes, you don't really tell as many gay jokes anymore.

[A]

Yeah, because, like, it's not that funny anymore.

[C]

It's not that funny anymore. And so extreme, by doing this, you're making it part of Culture, and you're normalizing it, and you're normalizing me.

[A]

And so I think the thing that's important for us as consumers is, you know, I would say that mainstream press never spoke for me. Right. When I. There's nothing that. That, you know, I was first written about in Mainstream Press in 1995, and I never wanted to read mainstream press again because you're like, wow, if this is sort of the surface level that they cover things, why would I read anything else you write? Right. But I would also say that these extreme press viewpoints don't speak for us either. And I think that's important because if it feels like we're becoming more polarized, as everyone says, I think that's just as fake as, you know, when are we going to have more centrist political dialogue? Which was a conversation I heard at the J.P. morgan conference back in 2021 by a bunch of old billionaires. And I was like, you guys are asking the question, when are we going to go back to having three channels on television?

[C]

No, what they've really done, they've connected the two extremes to have a fight.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And we're like, there with the popcorn.

[A]

Exactly. And we're. And that's it. Like, this is what I keep saying. Whenever someone brings this up to me, I'm like, you're falling for it. This is exactly what they want you to do. They want you to be up in arms around this. No, let's come back to Jella Biafra. Let's do our own research. Like D Y O R. When I listen to the dead Kennedys, I've been listening to dead Kennedys nonstop because my friend Glenn Friedman is writing a Dead Kennedys book, and he's given me an opportunity to write something for it. So I want to do a good job. And it's such an important part of my DNA that I'm, like, studying it. And I'm realizing that one of the things I got from it was Doug Kennedys had a song in 1979 that was kind of anti left. California uber alles. I am Governor Jerry Brown. My aura smiles and never frowns. Your kids will meditate in school. Right? Then Reagan comes into power and he makes a new song. We've got a bigger problem now, right? I am Emperor Ronald Reagan, born again with fascist cravings. Your kids are going to pray in school, right? And I realize now that what Jello taught me was look out for both sides. Neither of them are speaking for you. They both have. They're both trying to control you do your own research. Comes back to bitcoin, I think. By the way, I wore this for you today. Yeah, the bitcoin misfits love that. So I think that we need to be. Another line that I think is that I keep giving to people right now comes back to our music conversation. You should pay attention to what mainstream media says as much as you listen to pop radio. And so, in other words, if you are listening to pop music radio or if you are reading mainstream press, I doubt I have a lot to talk to you about.

[B]

This show is sponsored by Gemini. We live in a really strange time with governments driving inflation with their reckless spending and endless money printing. There is a way out of this. There is a way to protect your money, and that is by stacking bitcoin. I've made loads of shows about bitcoin. You can go and research this, you can go and read the books, but the truth is, it is the hardest money ever created. If you are interested in protecting your financial future, it's time for you to get on the bitcoin train. I have. I've been stacking bitcoin personally and through my businesses since 2017. It's protected me, it's secured my family's future, and it also strengthens all of my businesses. So if you want to start stacking bitcoin, where do you do it? Well, for me, it's with Gemini. They're a fully licensed, full reserve exchange and custodian. So they give you a secure way for you to buy and own your bitcoin. There's no risks and no funny business. So if you're serious about stacking bitcoin the right way, head over to gemini.com, which is g e m I n I dot com.

[C]

So. So, okay, let me. Let me talk to you about two dilemmas then. Okay, so have a podcast. The primary Delivery channel is YouTube. YouTube allows you, when you post out a show, to test the thumbnail and test the title. Shock and bait works. Yeah, you know, and I don't go to, like, the full end of the extreme, you know, such and such exposed, blah, blah, blah. But, like, if you put the UK is in crisis, it's gonna do better than let's talk about the uk. And so I have a choice right now.

[B]

In time.

[C]

I. We've been doing the show for a year, and when we get the first titles that come out, I'm always with con. I'm like, I can't do that. But we do a little bit of bait. And I'm like, should I be doing this like it performs. You get more listeners. We're basically, we've got the advert sending the juicy cheeseburger, and then we've given you a really good steak. Right? But like, should I be doing it or should I be the person who goes, my interview is with Ian Rogers and we talk about music, technology and culture and then just fuck it. What will be, will be. So that's my first one.

[A]

I'm going to channel one of my oldest friends, rapper the Paranorm, who explained the universe to me one day when I was asking him a question like this about something. And I don't even remember what it was, but I just remember his answer, which is, he goes, yo, hoes gotta eat.

[B]

You see?

[C]

See, but that's the point. But are you contributing to the slop and the mess?

[A]

Sure, of course you are. But I mean, look, I mean, let's come back to the Dead Kennedys for a second. Dead Kennedys. You know, I remember the guy in my high school who thought Kill the Poor was a funn song about killing people, which it's not. So the shock was the bait and the politics was on the other side, you know, like, you know, when you, if, if you, you know, if you, if you came, if you came for the shock, what you found was like libertarianism in a way, you know, and, and so I don't know, Jello would probably hate me saying libertarianism, but you know what I mean? What I got from it was free thinking and there was something much deeper, like, let's lean lynch the Landlord isn't about killing someone, it's about living in a slum, you know, and so, and maybe also, you know, you could say something like NWA, right? In the 80s was shocking the word, you know, the name NWA, the language they were using, you know, and. But at the same time, there was a social message behind it. So I think it's okay to do that. I was listening to out of Step by Minor Threat this week.

[C]

Minor Threat.

[A]

And I was, I was, I actually was like, I would love to do, do an interview with Ian Makai on this because I have two questions for him. I've never heard him answer. 1. The music is just so good. The music is better than it needed to be. How did it get there? The other though is he's just saying motherfucker a lot. And what I realized is that that kind of drew me in as a 15 year old, like, oh, he's saying something you're not supposed to say. At the same time, I Found something else in it. I found straight edge. I found, you know, don't smoke, don't drink, don't fuck. At least I can fucking think, you know, like, so maybe the F word brought me in, but I heard the rest. Did you ever get. So maybe you can hit that. Maybe you could. Maybe the shot could bring people in, but maybe, you know, they'll be like, oh, and hold on, I got an idea from it, too.

[C]

Well, that's what we're trying to do. But by the way, just complete tangent. Did you ever get to do a punk rock gig at cbgbs?

[A]

No.

[C]

Never ever?

[B]

Imagine.

[C]

Minor threats, ebgbs?

[A]

No way.

[C]

No. No, I didn't. But imagine.

[A]

Oh, imagine. Yeah, Bad brains.

[C]

Okay, so then the second dilemma is a bigger one. Okay. I always felt like growing up, I was kind of middle of the road. Like, I was a bit left. I like free thinking, didn't care. Like, let's look after people. Let's be good people. But I was brought up a little bit conservative as I was sent to, like, private school. But when I got into the world of bitcoin, and then I look at the shape of the world that we're in. I look at the money, I look at the debt. Like, look at the inflation, the jobs being lost. I cannot help but look at government with a very, very critical eye. I basically hate the government. I struggle to see a world where you can get rid of them, but I kind of hate them. And then when I write about things like on Twitter or Facebook, it always tends to be kind of libertarian, conservative economics.

[B]

Right.

[C]

But there's a world of people who are my friends, my old friends who are from the left who basically think I'm now a fascist.

[A]

Right? Yeah.

[C]

And I maybe sound like a bit of a fascist sometimes. Cause I'm saying, like, what are the incentives? What are the economics of these decisions? These are the bad outcomes. And I feel like I'm being sucked into this world where.

[B]

I sound like.

[C]

A fascist at times. Look to them. I don't think I am. And it's that choice. It's like, it's very easy to be middle of the road. I love everyone. I like everyone. I'm gonna be everyone's friend. Yeah. That's terrible. That's terrible. Well, let's go and have a drink or be an opinion leader. Said, no, this is fucking bullshit. What the government doing there is bullshit. If you have unlimited welfare, if you have unlimited welfare and you have a burdensome tax system, all your rich people are going to leave the country. You're gonna have to raise taxes on the middle class. You're gonna crush the middle class. But you're gonna have to borrow money, which means you're gonna print money. It means you're gonna have inflation. So you have to have a sensible system. All my lefty friends think I'm insane. And I'm like, how do you navigate that?

[B]

In.

[C]

How do you navigate that world?

[A]

Well, here would be. I have a comment, and then I have direct advice.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Which you can take it or leave it, because I think you're good at doing it the way that you do it. And I think actually navigating that, letting people hear you navigate that is actually good, because I've had my version of that. Because I left Silicon Valley for France. And. And look, when I was in the music business, I was just in the music business and really, truly, like, as you can tell from this conversation, music's the only thing I'm actually qualified to talk about. And I came to the luxury business.

[B]

That's untrue.

[A]

Here in France. And.

[C]

That's untrue. We've been friends for how long now? Three, four, five years?

[A]

Yeah, four years.

[C]

Completely untrue. That's the only thing.

[A]

I appreciate that, but I really feel that way where, like, also, I can talk, like, passionately about a 7 inch for 30 minutes. I can't talk passionately about politics for 30 minutes. You know what I mean? I get exhausted and I'm like, ah, fuck it.

[B]

I don't care.

[A]

Um, the. But the.

[B]

The.

[A]

What I. What I found, like, you know, coming from music to. To luxury is the greatest thing you could ever do, because the music people love luxury, and the luxury people love music. So everyone thinks you're, you know. You know, great. It's like when I was. And that was. That was lovely. Now I hit the eject button and come to Ledger and do crypto. And then FTX happens. And there are a whole lot of people, honestly, that were just like, let's not talk to Ian for a while. I talked about this on Rick Rubin's podcast a little bit. I have enough punk rock in me to really not give a shit and to, like, no. Okay, well, now I know who my real friends are. That's cool. And by the way, I'm also friends with, as, you know, both Kid Rock and Kevin Spacey. So, you know, a lot of people don't like me, I guess, for having. Having actually looking at individuals in the eye as people and loving them as people. Loving them as brothers do. Kid Rock and I see eye to eye on every issue. No, but did I see eye to eye with my brother on every who Rest in Peace? On every issue either? No, but he's still my brother, and I would still do anything for him. Right. So I think, you know, you sort of find out, like, those are just life lessons. I think, though, that the actual answer for me, I just stay continually curious. I want to know things. I want to know. That's why I won't listen to mainstream press on any topic. If I want to know about something, I'm going to read a. A book on that topic. Like, I'm gonna try to find what is the most definitive book by the expert on this topic, and I'm gonna try to read that and actually have a nuanced opinion on it. And I think if you look at Rick Rubin, that was gonna be my example. Rick, he lets other people speak. He has lots of views when you talk to him one on one, that as public as he is, he wouldn't share publicly, not because he's ashamed of them, but because he just feels like I'm not the expert and it's not my place to share these things. So instead, since he's a curious person, he gets the experts and he puts them in front of a microphone and he asks them the questions, and he lets them pontificate on that, and then he adds that kind of to his worldview continually. And that, I think, is. And that's what you do with your show as well. Right? So I think that, look, I'm just a skateboarder from Indiana. You're a zine maker from Bedford, you know, and a bar owner and a podcast creator. And what you've really just been is curious. I don't think you need to have an opinion on any of these things publicly. I don't. I think that what you can do is have other people and say, hey, which is what you do. I listened to your most recent podcast last night. It's exactly what you do. You're constantly saying, I don't get this. Explain it to me.

[C]

Yeah. And do you know what the problem is? It's like you can interview people with. From completely different ends of the spectrum, and you end up sitting there and go, oh, yeah, you've made a good point.

[A]

Right?

[C]

And then you get somebody who would disagree with him and go, oh, yeah, you've made a good point.

[A]

That's. That's what it means to be human, I think, you know, and by the way, like, it is embedded in our LLMs right. One of the hardest things to get an LLM to do is to have an opinion, because it will, you know, if you ask it anything, it'll always kind of tell you, well, if your priority is this and this and this and you should go this way, but if your priority is this and this and this, you should go this way. And by the way, that's reality. You know what I mean? Like, you know, like, yeah, austerity is great in what it fixes, except for the people that it hurts. Right?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, that's it.

[A]

So. And you know, an economy running red hot is great, except for the cliff that you ultimately drive off of. Right. What are you prioritizing? And like, this is the dilemma that we are in. But I do think that's why I think these structural issues are so interesting. I also think that we have to remember it's just not a zero sum game. Right. I mean, what people love to hate on Yuval Harari these days, but I loved Sapiens especially. What it taught me was just that the fundamental question is, what do we want to want? You have to start there. And if we don't agree on that, we won't agree on the solution. You know, like, what's the outcome we're driving toward? 11 billion people. Okay. 11 billion people. With what? You know, with. With, you know, even what I mean.

[C]

You know, you can't collectively agree on that. So there's your libertarian argument. We should all be just left the fuck alone as much as possible.

[A]

Well, I mean. And, you know. Yeah. I mean, prioritize lifestyle in some ways. Right. Because, you know, I don't. Again, I'm a skateboarder from Indiana. I don't think I'm gonna solve this problem. And the last thing I would. I think actually a bigger problem is like, how are we gonna find great people to be in politics?

[C]

Well, that's the biggest problem in politics right now.

[A]

Why would you want that job?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, you really have to be a masochist. It is a, you know, to want to do that.

[C]

It's an ongoing situation. I've been courted for it. And I've. I've discussed it. I think I discussed it in that William Clouston show that you listen to.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And I think it's a. Yeah. What's a. You know, being a parent is a. Is a. Is a very rewarding and extremely thankless job. By definition. They shouldn't thank you.

[B]

No.

[A]

You know, they didn't ask to be born, but, man, I think that probably like being a politician must be, well, here's the choice, bad as it gets.

[C]

Depending on your situation. Like, if it was you or I, it is. I'm gonna be. If I choose to do it, I'm gonna be very busy. I'm not gonna be able to earn any proper money because I'm gonna be like, doing the job of a politician which doesn't actually relatively pay well, that some people are listening. What the fuck you want about. But, like, if you're a successful business person, doesn't pay well, you got press intrusion. Every single word you say or said in the past, it's gonna be used against you. 50% of the public perhaps are going to hate you, and you're going to be fighting, fighting, fighting to do what you think is right, not be able to make change. And occasionally you're going to have to support something you disagree with because of the whip, because of party loyalty. And at the end of it, you probably spat out and either forgotten about or remembered something bad or has made a mistake or. Or as like, you know, whether it's a decision you made, some point along your life or like an affair, like, something will happen and that's it. And you're everything, like, what's the point?

[A]

I agree with you. And you know what? With all that said, as you're saying, I'm thinking about it because, you know, Pascal and I have had the pleasure, truly, of going to Washington and walking the Hill three times over the past four years. And the quality of people you meet and the quality of intellect is shockingly good and high, and people who really care a lot. I'm thinking of, you know, Tom Emmer at the very top of that list. And, you know, and I mean, many others that we've met on both sides of the aisle in Washington who are people. And a nice thing about being in America is they are often people who have run businesses, so they have real experience trying to, you know, trying to exist inside the economy, you know, and they know what the challenges are, and they do exactly what you said, which is they. They trade. You know, they're like, if I want to get this, which I think is important, I'm gonna have to give up that. That's the CODs, you know. Yeah. And, man, like, there. I do feel like, you know, when I talk to my American friends these days, there's a lot of, like, oh, man, it's really messed up in America. It must be nice to be out of here. And I really think, like, I feel being where I am I don't think you guys realize how good the system is there. And that might sound crazy, but what I mean is, is that you. And also having seen how the sausage is made a bit, you know, again, it comes back to that, you know, democracy is the worst, except for all the others. Like, it really does. There is something about it that does still work. And I think we've felt that in the crypto world over the past year, there is something. And as, by the way, as kooky and messed up as it is, I wish we didn't have. I wish we didn't have to deal with, like, the stories around, you know, Trump's crypto fortune. That's not helpful for us, in my opinion. At the same time, if. Look at the work that David Sachs is doing and the work that Sriram is doing around AI, the work that Bo Hinds did with stablecoin, like, there's. It's sane by comparison, if I may. Right. And so I think that there is something about the system that does still work. I also think that we need to remember that it's not supposed to be easy. Like, when you run a business, every day is hard, every day is a fight. And then, you know, and then you. Then eventually you can look behind you with, with 2020 vision. Right? And I think the same thing in politics. Everything seems like a mess, every day seems like a fight. But if you'd have told, you know, like my dad when he was a kid that someday we would have, like, gay marriage and legalize marijuana, he would have, like, spit his coffee on the table. Right. You know what I mean? Yet the system moves on. And there are some things hiding in plain sight now. Like, you know, what they've done with stablecoins is going to have global impact, you know, and it's not a small. It's not a small thing. And yet people still don't really get the impact of it.

[C]

Well, there's incentive alignment within politics there. That's the problem we have in the UK right now. There is no incentive alignment. If you look at the Labor Party front bench, there's no entrepreneurs in there, so there's no incentive alignment. So when they make policy decisions, they're not making those policy decisions knowing not to be able to get to sleep on a Friday night because you're thinking about payroll and you're looking at the bank account and going, we've had a bad month and it looks like it's going to get worse next month and next month, and then they bring in a new Tax or a new rule or a new regulation that makes it even harder. You want incentive alignment with your politics, which means you need, I think, really what are the most important things? The economy, law and order. So I think within politics, you want people who run businesses and people who. Not lawyers because they grift the system. You want people who've worked in the police, you want people who worked in the armed forces. But at the moment, this Labour Party, it is lawyers, trade unionists and charity workers. And no disrespect to them as professions directly, but I do not think they make good politicians because a trade unionist, they know how to lobby and pressure what a small group of people need, that isn't good for government, you know.

[A]

So let me posit a solution because I agree with you and I.

[C]

Here's my criticism. You can be the solution.

[A]

No, no, actually you said it already in terms of like, what kind of people you want to be there. Because I want to try to tie these two ideas together. I think it is true. Again, let's try to tie it all together. Technology and culture are never not separate. You know, television impacted culture, obviously, it impacted politics. And the Internet certainly has impacted culture and politics in a big way. And I do believe that the broad arc. I believe that both Dalio and Balaji are right in the broad sense. Right. So if we could just use those two as backdrops and, you know, the high level of what Balaji says is that you know, many, many years ago, around the time of the French Revolution, we moved from God to state. And, you know, now we're making this transition from state to network. And I think that that's true. So. But still our human carcasses live in this geographical space. And the notion of politics is we just draw a line on the Earth. Yeah, right. And we go, okay, let's try to elect somebody who represents the ideals of the people within this line. What I always think about with that is, I think, you know, when my dad was a kid in Goshen, Indiana, when it was like mostly lower middle class white people in that area, you probably could elect somebody who roughly represented the ideals of those people. But if you go back to Goshen, Indiana today, where today it's 30% Hispanic, you have richer rich and poorer poor in that area. It's probably impossible to, you know, South Bend is only an hour from where I grew up, where Pete Buttigieg was the mayor. Maybe still is. I don't know the politics there. I'm sorry. And. But I think Pete is actually an amazing politician. Does he represent the ideals of all the people in South Bend, Indiana? Absolutely not. It's impossible. Right?

[C]

It's impossible.

[A]

And that's my point. And so 2021 at the JPMorgan conference in Miami, which is a very surprising place for me to be. Thank you to Raoul Paul for putting me on that stage with. Well, I'll tell the story later, but with Jamie Dimon sitting right in front of us in 2021. But Mayor Suarez spoke.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

And then. And he had a very simple message. He's like, look, what is my job as mayor? My job is to keep. To keep you safe, keep things clean, keep the potholes out of the street, kind of, you know, broadly speaking and metaphorically speaking, and then stay the hell out of your way and to do it with the lowest possible cost base. And what I. My thought at that time was, wow, that's a very network state approach to governance. Right. Because what you're doing is you're acknowledging that the people inside of your jurisdiction have very different ideals.

[C]

Yeah, there's no ideology in that.

[A]

Yeah, there's no ideology in it. It's. It's. We all want to live in a place which is safe, where we're not under threat and we're not under attack, where things are clean, and if there's a fire, someone is going to come help us out. And if I need healthcare. So healthcare, I think, is a huge issue that I have no solution for, but you know what I mean. Cause we want safety as human beings and as you know. And you really don't want the richest to have the best and the poorest to have the worst. Like, you don't want that. I think we can agree on that as those human beings. At the same time, the government should do that with the lowest cost base and without ideology, you know, without making an ideological judgment. So that is probably libertarianism. But I think that that is also in line with the fact that we are moving from state to network. And I would like to have a peaceful transition from state to network. We didn't have a totally peaceful transition from God to state, and we won't have a totally peaceful transition from state to network. And I think the most peaceful would be, frankly, what I heard Mayor SUAREZ say in 21.

[B]

I want to talk to you about one of my sponsors, Incogni. And that means we're going to talk about the weird world of spam. And I don't just mean those spam emails that you get day after day from companies you never heard of. And companies you've never signed up to. I'm also talking about those spam phone calls you get from those people who seem to know a little bit too much about you trying to get your bank details. It's all a bit creepy right now. This all comes from the world of data brokerage. There are companies out there collecting your data, building profiles and sending that data to anyone who wants it. Which is why when one of those scammers phoned you up, they seem to know everything about you. Now, I've tried, I've tried myself to get off these lists, try to get off the phone lists, try to get off the email list. I unsubscribe from every one of these emails that comes in. But this game of Whack a Mole, it just never ends. And so this is where Incogni comes in. They do all the hard work for you. They reach out to these companies and. And they will get you legally removed from these lists. And I know because last time they sponsored my show, I signed up and I didn't take the free option that they offered me. I wanted to pay for it. I wanted to see if you get value for money. And they removed me from 79 data broker lists. And so I've stayed on, I've stayed a subscriber and I have seen a massive decrease in the number of emails and phone calls I've been getting. So it's a great service. I recommend you check it out. If you're sick of this like I was, please head over to incogni.com peter and sign up. If you use the code, Peter, you will get a lovely 60% discount. So that's incogni.com Peter.

[C]

It is very libertarian, but it comes back to. Because the people I argue with, I actually think we want the same outcome, which is a fair, safe society. Right. And so when you talk about, I don't think we want the richest to have everything and the poorest have nothing, how do you bridge that gap? Do you bridge that gap through libertarianism and voluntarism, the idea that we allow individuals to create for themselves and if they've got abundance and they see people struggling in poverty, they go out there and support themselves charitably. Or do you do it through taxation and redistribution?

[A]

I think so. I'm changing my views on this recently. I was talking with John Higgs about this. I'm formulating something here. Let me try it on. On you as a Brit.

[C]

All right, you got four minutes.

[A]

Yeah, because I think the BBC is really interesting, right okay, all right, let me.

[C]

Let me.

[A]

Let me try this out on you. Yeah, I think. All right, let's use the notion of the last economy in that book. And it basically says that ultimately we're going to need to move towards some form of ubi.

[C]

Okay, right.

[A]

So let's say that we move towards some form of ubi. I would argue that in some ways the BBC was a form of UBI for creative. For a creative class. Right. We're going to tax televisions and we're going to make content. Yes, Right. And what I love is that, you know, without the BBC, you don't get things like Adam Curtis, which are just like, wow, I'm not sure that Adam Curtis would exist if he had to, you know, pitch that to cbs. Right.

[C]

That's fair.

[A]

And I'm really thankful that that exists. And so I think when we look at AI, I feel like there's. And here's the thing I'm becoming comfortable with. I'm becoming comfortable with taxation being a bit arbitrary. I'll tell you what I mean. I think that, okay, when you look at something like copyright infringement. Right, let's look at. Let's say that. And it's all about, like, what can we agree upon as a society? I think we could probably all agree that if you take, you know, the new. I don't know, I'm gonna make it up the new, you know, U2 record. Not that there is one, but if you take the new U2 record and you change the name and you change the album cover and you upload all the same songs to Spotify and you claim it's your record. No, we can agree as society, like, that's not the society we want to live in, where you can just kind of like steal and repurpose the U2 record, that's copyright infringement. Yes, we can agree. We would also agree that, like, if you don't like what the New York Times says and you want to write an article about that, you should be able to quote what they say and comment on it. Yes, that's fair use. So these are the kind of, like the two extremes. We're never going to agree on the line in the middle. Yes, the line in the middle is blurry. And we will never agree on it. Let's just agree that it's not a bright yellow line. It's a. It's a. We're just gonna have to kind of make it up. We're gonna go, you know what? The line's here.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and then we're just gonna have to live with it. And that's kind of what we do, right? I mean, I, I've been through things like what's the statutory cost of a radio play on the Internet? And what I learned is that it's arbitrary. At the end of the day, a court decides it and you just have to live with it as a business. And it sucks, but you kind of build around it. And this is kind of what we do. If you look at like regulation around, like the regulate. Let's say that we get market structure, you know, bill around crypto in the US Which I hope we do this year, there will be things in it that we don't like. Right. And we'll, we'll have to build around them. And that's part of like, like, because there are these things that we agree on, but there's a line in the middle that we don't. And then we're going to just have to draw the line somewhere and then we live with it. Well, to that end, I think that, for example, we could agree creative people whose work is ingested into OpenAI as an example deserve some percentage of revenue. We're never going to agree on what that percentage is. I think, I bet we could all agree that it's greater than zero and it's less than 100. That's what we could agree. It's greater than zero and less than 100. But what we should do, just like the BBC was sort of an arbitrary tax right on televisions that ultimately went to a creative class. Let's pick a number. Let's do it tomorrow. Let's pick a number. 15%. I don't know, maybe it's 25%, maybe it's 30, maybe it's 2, I don't know. But let's pick a number and give that money to creative people and see what they do with it. And even the giving it to creative people, will it be totally fair? Of course not. I mean, there's no way to do it. That's totally fair. And what I've, what I've found peace with is just saying, yes, it's arbitrary, no, it won't be fair. But yes, it's better than not doing it. So let's fucking go.

[C]

I'm with you on that. Do you know what it made me think of, like, just as a closing out point, have you seen this thing that's been popping up, this fake music where they're taking.

[A]

Did I send you? Did I send you the guy that's doing like Funk covers of Misfits and ACDC songs.

[C]

You haven't sent me it.

[A]

Fakemusicbr. I think on. On Instagram. It's my favorite thing. If the Miss Funks were playing tonight, we would go. It's so good.

[C]

So, I mean, some of them have brought.

[A]

Anyone who hates AI music has not heard the Ms. Funks, dude.

[C]

So this is this funk soul, jazz version of songs I heard Refuse Resist by Sepultura. And I was like, this is incredible.

[A]

That's the guy.

[C]

That's the guy. So last night they had nookie by Limp Bizkit. And I'm like, this is fucking incredible. So good. Right? And what was the imev?

[A]

And then he has video of real people playing drums to the AI song. Bro.

[C]

I would go to the concert and watch this because it's absolutely. And it's weird how it works. Oh, man.

[A]

This is it. This is why these things aren't black and white. At the end of the day, we're human beings. Bob Pittman is famous for saying that, you know, people don't fall in love with robots, they fall in love with humans. That's why they had VJs on MTV. And MTV would not be MTV without VJs.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And so there's always a humanness. We as humans will always be drawn to that. I think it's a question of, like, what exactly is the role of this animal on planet Earth 100 years from now? I think we underestimate how different that is going to be even 25 years from now. We're close to AGI. We're close to quantum computing. Look at what's happening in robotics 25 years from now. The world is unrecognizable. And that will be the world that our kids just fight and exist in. Just like, you know, we've fought and existed in this one.

[C]

I wish we had seven more hours.

[A]

Yeah. Well, let's do it again.

[C]

I love you, man.

[A]

I love you, too. I'll come to Bedford again. I love it there.

[C]

Let's do it.

[A]

I love coming to Peter McCormick Land.

[C]

Peter McCormick. Listen, we will do it again. Appreciate you so much, and thank you everyone, for listening. We're in France, by the way. If anyone's wondering where we are, we're at the beautiful Ledger studio in France.

[A]

I've walked avoir.