The Peter McCormack Show #123: Ian Rogers – "The Coming 25 Years Will Be Unrecognisable — AGI, Quantum & The End of Labour"

Date: October 28, 2025
Host: Peter McCormack
Guest: Ian Rogers
Theme: Navigating a world rapidly changing through technology — AGI, quantum computing, AI, and the deep impacts on culture, education, labour, and politics.

Episode Overview

In this rich and energetic conversation, Peter McCormack and technologist Ian Rogers reflect on the pace of technological change and its seismic impacts on culture, music, education, labour, and politics. They explore what it means to be human in the face of artificial general intelligence (AGI) and quantum computing, question existing models of education and employment, and debate how society can — and should — adapt. Their lively dialogue weaves personal stories with big-picture thinking, always returning to the central challenge: how to remain grounded, humane, and curious in a future that will be "unrecognisable" within a generation.

Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Technology, Culture, and the Enduring Human Element

00:00–03:13 | 10:14–11:03

• Ian opens with the idea that "people don't fall in love with robots, they fall in love with humans...there’s always a humanness" (A, 00:00).
• The duo riff on how culture and technology are inextricably linked, especially in music ("It's impossible to extract culture from technology," A, 03:13).
• The democratization from zines to the internet allowed outsider voices to find networks: "Anyone who ever made a zine with a photocopier and a Sharpie understood the Internet the moment they saw it" (A, 04:26).
• The shift from god, to state, to network (referencing Balaji Srinivasan) — "We are living in a world now where we value the opinions of our network neighbors more than our physical neighbors" (A, 10:31).

2. Music in the Algorithmic Era — Nostalgia, Discovery, & the Changing Canon

03:13–10:14

• Peter laments algorithm-driven, "bollocks music like Drill," and the death of the album as a cultural object.
• Ian counters that every generation is nostalgic and can't see the vibrancy of contemporary creative undergrounds ("Somebody sent me a pile of contemporary punk rock records, and...every single one of them were incredible. And I'd never heard of any of them." A, 08:04).
• Technology continually disrupts not only how music is made and distributed, but what it means to be an artist or a fan.

3. Education and Preparing the Next Generation

11:37–14:48 | 16:37–18:25

• With AGI at hand, Peter asks: “If we're sending kids to school at the moment to memorize facts, while they've got a supercomputer with AI, what are we actually doing? How the fuck do you prepare a kid now?" (C, 11:50)
• Ian shares his family's educational experiences; his daughter’s progressive U.S. school focused on thinking and problem-solving — “They try to make a good person who can think for themselves” (A, 12:54).
• Traditional systems, like in France, are stuck in rote memorization, effectively “trading an LLM” (C, 13:34), ill-suited for the future.
• The model of “learning by doing” is celebrated through Peter’s story of his son, who flourished more as a podcast producer than as an art student.

4. The Evolving Nature of Work & The End of Labour?

18:25–20:29 | 21:25–23:29 | 25:06–28:35

• College is not for memorizing facts, says Ian, but “a period of time when you’re too old to live at home and you’re too young to be in the real world” (A, 18:25).
• The job landscape is radically shifting — mid-level workers with AI skills are replacing entry-level graduates: “People cannot get... graduate jobs...handled by mid tier people who use an AI instead of grads” (C, 16:38).
• The history of job displacement: "Those blue collar jobs were removed 25 years ago. It's like a continual hollowing out" (A, 20:30).
• Ian warns: “We overestimate how many jobs [AI] is going to remove in the near term. I think we underestimate the fact that it is going to materially change the relationship between labor and capital” (A, 28:19).
• The notion of human labour having negative value is raised (“He's pointing to a world where human labor actually has a negative value. And there's your change in the relationship between labor and capital.” A, 28:52).

“Every technological revolution is a bubble... The bubble bursts, and then you get 30 years of sustained growth. You should expect the same thing with respect to AI.” (A, 27:46)

5. Unrecognisable Futures: AGI, Quantum, Infinite Compute/Energy

25:06–29:12 | 66:46–67:35

• Looming convergence: “We’ve got these convergences...bitcoin, AI, quantum...[are we heading toward] an incredible world or a horrific dystopian world?” (C, 25:06).
• We’re “close to AGI...to quantum computing...look at what’s happening in robotics. 25 years from now the world is unrecognizable, and that will be the world that our kids fight and exist in” (A, 00:00; A, 67:02).

6. Surviving Polarization in the Age of the Network

30:04–37:55

• The “network state” splits our identities between physical and digital worlds — dangerous group dynamics can emerge (“If they go into that forum, the network...‘I’m gonna go to Walmart and shoot some people.’ And they go, ‘Do it, bro.’" A, 30:28).
• Extreme views attract more attention; the center is lost (“Now we have these extreme viewpoints which actually get a lot of attention. And so it's almost like the opposite of, you know, the middle point of view really doesn't represent everyone, but these extreme points of view really don't represent everyone either." A, 33:40).
• On social progress and normalization: “You're making jokes, you're normalizing who we are...by doing this, you're making it part of culture" (C, 35:00).

7. The Challenge of Curation, Media, and Modern Dilemmas

38:51–42:06

• Peter’s podcast faces the YouTube “shock and bait” dilemma; performance rewards sensationalism.
• Ian draws parallels to punk and hip hop: “The shock was the bait and the politics was on the other side...” (A, 41:14).
• The case for complexity — bring people in for the sizzle, give them the steak.

8. Navigating Identity, Tribalism, and Having an Opinion

42:17–49:35

• Peter feels caught between worlds: old left-wing friends think he’s a fascist for criticizing welfare and supporting “libertarian” economics.
• Ian’s advice: Stay curious, informed, and host diverse perspectives. Echoing Rick Rubin, “He lets other people speak...he lets them pontificate...then he adds that kind of to his worldview continually. And that's what you do with your show as well” (A, 46:55).
• There’s wisdom in holding multiple, even contradictory truths: “You can interview people from completely different ends of the spectrum, and you end up sitting there and go, 'Oh, yeah, you've made a good point'... That's what it means to be human, I think” (C, 48:01).

9. The Future of Politics: Incentive Alignment, Leadership, and “Network State” Governance

49:35–59:40

• “Why would you want that job [in politics]?” Peter laments (A, 49:59).
• American politics, for all its flaws, still possesses a system that, though “messy,” works and advances (A, 53:37).
• Political representation is becoming impossible in diverse societies; maybe governance should focus on essentials and remove ideology (“My job [as mayor] is to keep you safe, keep things clean, keep the potholes out of the street...then stay the hell out of your way and do it with the lowest possible cost base...That’s a very network state approach to governance" A, 58:00).

“The broad arc...many years ago...we moved from God to state; now we're making this transition from state to network...I'd like to have a peaceful transition from state to network.” (A, 55:47; 58:36)

10. Redistribution, UBI, and the Lessons of the BBC

61:49–65:50

• Can we build a fairer world through libertarian voluntarism, or is some redistribution justified?
• Ian notes growing acceptance of “arbitrary” solutions in design of society (e.g., UBI for creators modeled on the BBC license): “I'm becoming comfortable with taxation being a bit arbitrary. Let’s pick a number...give that money to creative people and see what they do with it...(C, 64:07; A, 64:07).
• The workable answer is messy but necessary: "Yes, it's arbitrary, no, it won't be fair. But yes, it's better than not doing it. So let's fucking go." (A, 65:37)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On humanness:

  “People don’t fall in love with robots, they fall in love with humans. That’s why they had VJs on MTV.” — Ian Rogers (A, 00:00; 67:02)

• On the pace of change:

  “25 years from now the world is unrecognizable, and that will be the world that our kids just fight and exist in. Just like, you know, we've fought and existed in this one.” — Ian Rogers (A, 67:02)

• On education:

  “What are you doing? Because you are basically, you're creating people for industrialization.” — Ian Rogers (A, 13:34)

• On music, nostalgia, and the underground:

  “In that year, we were looking at the underground...and then today, we’re judging music based on the Billboard Hot 100. And that's where we're old.” — Ian Rogers (A, 07:56)

• On adapting for the AI era:

  “We overestimate how many jobs it's going to remove in the near term. I think we underestimate...it’s going to materially change the relationship between labor and capital.” — Ian Rogers (A, 28:19)

• On political engagement:

  “Criticism is only allowed when it comes with an alternate proposal.” — Ian Rogers (A, 22:39)

• On polarization and media:

  “They’ve connected the two extremes to have a fight. And we’re like there with the popcorn.” — Peter McCormack (C, 36:04)

• On the future of redistribution:

  “Let’s pick a number. Let’s do it tomorrow. Let’s pick a number...and give that money to creative people and see what they do with it...Yes, it's arbitrary, no, it won't be fair. But yes, it's better than not doing it. So let's fucking go.” — Ian Rogers (A, 65:37)

Key Timestamps

• 00:00 – The enduring pull of humanness in a high-tech world; MTV and VJs
• 03:13 – The unbreakable link between culture and technology; zines and the early web
• 11:37 – Is current education preparing kids for AGI?
• 16:37 – Real-life case study: Peter’s son and the new skills economy
• 21:25 – Ian on changing labor markets: “A continual hollowing out...”
• 25:06–29:12 – Are we heading to utopia or dystopia? AI as a labor disruptor
• 30:04–37:55 – Polarized digital networks and the loss of a mainstream
• 38:51 – The YouTube “bait and switch” dilemma in modern media
• 42:17 – Navigating identity across political and social spectra
• 49:35 – Is political leadership doomed? The impossible incentives of public service
• 55:47–59:40 – Can local, network-state governance be the answer?
• 61:49 – Redistribution, UBI, and arbitrary social solutions
• 65:50 – Fair use, copyright, and AI-generated music; the BBC as societal model
• 66:46–67:35 – Closing: “The world will be unrecognizable” in 25 years

Takeaways

• The future is coming fast, and it’s “unrecognizable.” AGI, quantum computing, infinite compute/energy — all promise a total reordering of society.
• Technology and culture are forever entwined, for better or worse.
• The best we can do for the next generation: Foster curiosity, creativity, and resilience instead of rote learning.
• We cannot wholly resist or predict the tides of change. But we can shape how humane, fair, and meaningful our lives and societies remain.
• Stay curious, stay grounded, stay human.

Hosts:

• Peter McCormack (@PeterMcCormack)
• Ian Rogers (@iancr)

For fans of Peter McCormack's blend of introspective inquiry, punk spirit, and disruptive optimism, this episode is both a touchstone and a provocateur for thinking about the next 25 years and beyond.