Podcast Summary: The Peter McCormack Show

Episode #137 – Larry Sanger: Will AI Replace Wikipedia?
Date: December 29, 2025
Host: Peter McCormack
Guest: Larry Sanger, Wikipedia Co-founder

Overview

This episode features a deep-dive conversation between Peter McCormack and Larry Sanger—co-founder of Wikipedia—on the integrity, neutrality, and future of Wikipedia in the age of AI. The discussion critiques Wikipedia’s governance and neutrality, explores how power dynamics and anonymity shape its content, examines the threat and promises of AI, and considers Sanger’s “Nine Theses” to reform the platform. The episode is candid and provocative, with Sanger openly questioning whether Wikipedia is now doing more harm than good.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Founding and Evolution of Wikipedia

• Wikipedia’s Origin Story ([02:12])

  • Sanger recounts meeting Jimmy Wales in the 1990s and joining him to launch Nupedia—a failed expert-driven encyclopedia.
  • In January 2001, inspired by wiki technology, they pivoted to Wikipedia, allowing open collaboration and rapid article creation.
  • “Within a couple of months there were hundreds of articles, and by the end of the year there were about 20,000 articles.” — Larry Sanger ([05:29])

• Early Challenges ([07:27])

  • Early articles were mainly “stubs” (short entries), and it took effort to focus contributors on building an encyclopedia rather than an anything-goes wiki.
  • Vetting and approval were initially planned via Nupedia, but as Wikipedia grew, peer review concepts were quickly sidelined.

Governance & Power Structures

• Who Controls Wikipedia? ([13:43])

  • Wikipedia’s most powerful editors (“the 62 most powerful people”) are largely anonymous, making the platform’s governance opaque and vulnerable to hidden agendas.
  • “85% of them are anonymous. Like, we don’t know who they are. So all the more then we don’t know who they’re working for.” — Larry Sanger ([13:43])
  • The power to ban, restrict, and delegate further authority is wielded by a small group, with potential for arbitrary and biased enforcement.

• Potential for Abuse & Bias ([15:03], [16:27])

  • Editors can be banned for capricious reasons, including falling foul of the prevailing ideological leanings of those in power.
  • The administrative structure rewards those already aligned with the dominant culture, hindering true neutrality.

• Anonymous Editing—Pros & Cons ([17:46])

  • Sanger distinguishes between the right of rank-and-file editors to be anonymous and the need for transparency among those with administrative power.
  • Anonymity at the top invites infiltration by governments or other organized groups.

Notable Quote:

“Information warfare…one of the main battlegrounds, I suppose, would be something like Wikipedia.” — Larry Sanger ([19:11])

Content Manipulation & Platform Capture

• Ideological Capture Examples ([21:03], [23:47])

  • Sanger cites the “Gang of 40” allegedly coordinating Wikipedia edits for political ends, particularly in the Israel-Palestine conflict.
  • Other groups, such as activists and skeptics (e.g., Guerrilla Skeptics), systematically shape the portrayal of controversial topics.

• PR & Activism ([28:24])

  • There’s a thriving industry of PR firms writing or curating entries for clients.
  • Some activism, such as improving coverage of women in science, is welcomed, but coordinated bias undermines neutrality.

• “Capturable” Platform ([28:24], [29:33])

  • Wikipedia is vulnerable to being influenced, or “captured,” by well-organized ideological or commercial interests.

Notable Moment:

"Influenceable? Is that a word? Anyway, it can be influenced, yeah. And yeah, for sure." — Larry Sanger ([28:24])

The Possibility and Limits of Neutrality

• The Nature of Neutrality ([30:54], [34:00])
  • Sanger argues that neutrality is possible in written text—even if individuals aren’t perfectly objective—by carefully canvassing all major views and representing them accurately.
  • The goal is not to provide a single “correct” answer but to lay out arguments so readers can decide.

Notable Quote:

“The purpose of neutrality…is so that somebody can make up his own mind.” — Larry Sanger ([32:03])

• Peer Review as Safeguard ([35:48])
  • No human is perfectly neutral. Peer review is necessary for detecting and correcting unintended bias in text.

Wikipedia vs. AI – The Future of Knowledge

• Can AI Be More Neutral Than Humans? ([38:07])

  • Sanger is cautiously optimistic: AI can enforce certain neutrality protocols dispassionately, but is only as good as its training and the prompts it’s given.
  • “You actually have to be an expert on a topic to know that a presentation of the topic is neutral.” ([38:12])

• Live AI Experiment: ([39:23]–[52:03])

  • The hosts compare how ChatGPT, Grok, and Perplexity rate the neutrality of Wikipedia’s articles on controversial subjects (e.g., Donald Trump, Joe Biden, Keynesian economics, Marxism).
  • AI notices non-neutral phrasing, especially on contentious figures.
  • “Short answer: No, the introduction is not neutral…” — ChatGPT, as read by Conor ([47:12])

• AIs as Hybrid Editors ([81:54])

  • Sanger notes the emergence of “Grokipedia,” where AI mediates editorial disputes and inserts factual corrections proposed by users.

Notable Quote:

“I would bet on AI before I would bet on Wikipedia.” — Larry Sanger ([55:19])

The “Nine Theses” for Reform

• Motivation and Reception ([00:00], [58:48], [91:55])
  • Sanger’s set of nine proposed reforms aim to restore openness, transparency, neutrality, and accountability.
  • While some Wikipedia insiders express partial support, the lack of formal governance makes adoption unlikely.

Main Theses Highlighted:

1. End Decision-making by “Consensus” ([59:57])

   • Critiques the abuse of “consensus” as establishment dogma.
   • “The consensus view is not a particular view on a controversial issue. It is a view about how the controversy should be fairly represented.” — Larry Sanger ([61:20])

2. Enable Competing Articles ([63:12])

   • Sanger suggests allowing alternative articles representing different frameworks or worldviews.

3. Abolish Source Blacklists ([67:06])

   • Wikipedia’s blacklisting of sources like the New York Post is called out as ideological gatekeeping.
   • “I haven’t, at least not recently, caught Breitbart News in any major errors.…They bend over backwards to do old-fashioned hard reporting.” ([73:35])

4. Revive Original Neutrality Policy ([75:51])

   • Calls for renewed commitment to neutral representation of all major perspectives.

5. Legislative Process ([86:51])

   • Advocates for a democratic editorial assembly to legitimize major policy changes.
   • “Open Internet communities tend to be institutionally conservative, and Wikipedia is exactly that way.” ([87:24])

Wikipedia’s Reputational Trajectory and the AI Threat

• Declining Trust & Traffic ([54:37])

  • Wikipedia traffic is dropping as AI-powered search and summarization tools become more trusted for quick, digestible answers.

• Wikipedia’s Role in the Age of LLMs ([94:00])

  • Wikipedia’s value in summarizing information for training AIs may keep it relevant, but as a go-to source for readers, it risks becoming obsolete or an “establishment relic.”

Notable Quote:

“Wikipedia sucks the air out of a lot of other very valuable competing encyclopedia projects.” — Larry Sanger ([100:55])

The “Encyclosphere” Concept

• Decentralizing Knowledge ([100:55])
  • Sanger proposes an open, federated network (“encyclosphere”) where anyone can submit and aggregate encyclopedia articles across platforms.
  • He highlights his involvement in projects like EncycloReader and EncycloSearch, which aggregate from many smaller wikis and platforms.

Memorable Quotes

• “Of course governments are involved, of course high paid PR firms are involved. We know that for a fact. Right. And they will do their very best…to hide their tracks and make themselves look like harmless college students and whatnot.”
  — Larry Sanger ([19:11])

• “If it’s going to insist on allowing people to write articles from a gasp framework, it should allow other articles on the same topics from other frameworks.”
  — Larry Sanger ([66:58])

• “You should…just be bold and don’t worry too much about the rules. If the rules make you nervous, then just ignore them, go about your business.”
  — Larry Sanger ([82:29], on the “Ignore All Rules” policy)

• “I’m sorry. I’ve been atoning all my life, actually, since starting it.”
  — Larry Sanger ([90:32]), on the trajectory of Wikipedia.

• “If you could turn [Wikipedia] off, would you turn it off?” — Peter McCormack
  “Yeah, I probably would, to be honest.” — Larry Sanger ([100:48])

Key Timestamps

• [02:12] – Wikipedia’s Founding & Early Days
• [13:43] – Who Runs Wikipedia? The Power of Anonymity
• [21:03] – Platform Manipulation: Political & Ideological Capture
• [30:54] – Can Neutrality Ever Be Achieved?
• [38:07] – Can AI Be Neutral?
• [59:56] – Sanger’s Nine Theses: Reform Proposals
• [67:06] – The Issue of Source Blacklists
• [75:51] – Neutrality Policy: Then & Now
• [86:51] – Legislative Process & Governance
• [100:55] – The Encyclosphere as an Alternative
• [104:17] – Sanger’s Call to Action for Disenfranchised Contributors

Conclusion

This episode is an urgent, sometimes combative reflection on Wikipedia’s trajectory, its surrender to establishment perspectives, and its potential eclipse by AI-driven knowledge platforms. Sanger is passionate about returning to true neutrality and decentralizing encyclopedia creation, but issues a chilling warning: “If you could turn [Wikipedia] off, would you turn it off?...Yeah, I probably would.” ([100:48])

Listeners are left with the sense that the way society curates, shares, and trusts information is in flux—with AI both as threat and promise—and that the risks and remedies discussed here are critical for the future of public knowledge.

For More

• Larry Sanger’s blog and proposal: LarrySanger.org
• Sanger’s “Nine Theses” (in-depth): [Referenced in-show]
• EncycloReader and EncycloSearch: Alternative, federated encyclopedia aggregators

End of Summary