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The Peter McCormack Show
#170 - Andrew Wilson - Why Modern Life Feels Like It’s Working Against You
01:54:10
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- [00:00]
A
Right now there's a right wing civil war that's going on. You have the dialectic between the left and the right, which has gotten even more polarized.
- [00:07]
B
I feel like there's a fight for the soul of America right now.
- [00:09]
A
Politics is informed by culture. Culture is downstream of theology. In order to make a culture work, there has to be a shared value set or it can't work. Our ethical system has become perverse. They cannot produce which is what really the key is, which is community. What institutions ever rooting for you, man?
- [00:30]
B
Yeah, yeah, I know.
- [00:32]
A
There's not any.
- [00:33]
B
What do you think is really going on? There's like, it feels like something deep.
- [00:36]
A
You're in an ideological conflict, Massive ideological conflict.
- [00:44]
B
Andrew. Hi, America right now. What's your read? What's going on?
- [00:49]
A
And just right, just right into it.
- [00:51]
B
Straight in, man.
- [00:54]
A
Well, that's a pretty. It's pretty complex if you want to separate it out. Right now there's a right wing civil war that's going on based around policies of Donald Trump and the Iran conflict. You have the dialectic between the left and the right, which has gotten even more polarized. So there's a lot going on.
- [01:14]
B
I mean, deeper than that.
- [01:15]
A
What does that mean?
- [01:16]
B
Like, I love American history and there seems to have been periods in time where they've been a need for a big change in the country, whether it's you kicking us out or dealing with the issues of the slaves. And it just feels like at the
- [01:29]
A
moment America shouldn't have kicked you out. Yeah, maybe, maybe not. Maybe that wasn't the best idea.
- [01:34]
B
Maybe a king was a good thing.
- [01:36]
A
Yeah, it might have been a good thing.
- [01:38]
B
I just feel like, I don't know, I feel like there's a fight for the soul of America right now. It is a bit similar in the uk. Our country is so polarized right now. You're either a communist or a fascist. That's it. They're the two choices you've got. And it's. It feels like the next election is like an existential fight. I feel like it's similar here and
- [01:56]
A
neither side is he actually either of those things. Yeah. So which camp do you fall under? Would they call you the fascist or would they call you the communist?
- [02:04]
B
They'll call me the fascist, but I don't vote. I kind of tend towards. I say libertarian, but not in a like utopian sense. I just want smaller government. I just hate the government. So. Yeah, because I want smaller government. I'm probably more conservative and traditional and like marriage and children and family. So I'm. I'm a fascist.
- [02:23]
A
Well, you have a lot of reason to hate your government, like, especially post Brexit, where they didn't actually exit.
- [02:29]
B
They didn't do shit. They didn't do anything.
- [02:31]
A
No, they didn't. I would be pretty pissed off if I were you, too. Yeah.
- [02:35]
B
Yeah. But, I mean, it's getting terrible down the uk.
- [02:39]
A
Londonistan, that's.
- [02:41]
B
That's what some people call it. I mean, it's what, 30, 37% native whites now? So it's changed a lot, but London's actually still a great city. I'm more worried about the economics of the country. You can fix the immigration problem. If you don't fix the economics, we're truly screwed. And I think that's a similar problem here.
- [03:00]
A
Think so?
- [03:01]
B
Yeah, I do. I do. I think a lot of the problems are downstream of corrupt government finding a way to steal your money all the time.
- [03:09]
A
Well, I mean, that's true. There is a large bay, like, in America, the theme is, if it moves, tax it, and if it moves again, tax it again. Right. In fact, it's so bad that you can't even avoid taxes and death. If you die, you still get taxed. And then there's an inheritance tax on top of that, so you get taxed for moving businesses between states. I mean, some economic reforms here would be pretty good. Trump was pretty good on that, though. Trump was pretty good about pushing some economic reforms through, especially with his first go around. I mean, he did a massive corporate tax cut that seemed to help people out quite a bit. So. Yeah.
- [03:48]
B
Okay, back to my original question. What do you think is really going on? There's like. It feels like something deep.
- [03:55]
A
Yeah. I don't know. If you say something like, what are we referencing here in the political arena or the undercurrent of American society? Like the. Like. I don't know that maybe the. This. The social cohesion issue or.
- [04:11]
B
Yeah, but I think. I do mean that. But I think it's downstream from the political climate.
- [04:16]
A
You think so?
- [04:17]
B
I think so.
- [04:17]
A
I think it's downstream from the religious climate.
- [04:20]
B
Okay, interesting.
- [04:21]
A
Yeah, yeah. So I. The way I look at it, you. Do you agree that politics. Politics is informed by culture?
- [04:34]
B
Hmm, not always. I think perhaps politics can. Yeah, no, they can adopt culture and.
- [04:42]
A
Yeah. I mean, it at least informs it. Yeah, right. Not saying that. I mean. Yeah, actually, I guess I am kind of saying that politics is basically, if it's. If it's downstream of culture, what's culture downstream of culture's Downstream of theology. Theology is what informs culture. So in. In your country, the Anglican Church, for instance, was a big part of the fabric of the nation before that, the Catholic Church. Most of the institutionalized morality and ethics that guide the British people came from the Catholic and later Anglican Church. And it's still a staple there. It's still a Christian nation. When you grew up, you grew up in what you perceived as being a Christian nation, right?
- [05:26]
B
For sure.
- [05:26]
A
So that informed the entire culture. The reason when Muslims come in, it causes so much problems is because their culture is also downwind of their theology, and their theology is not very good. And so since it's not very good, they create really trash cultures. And so they try to blend that culture with yours, and it ends up destroying the culture that you're in. The same exact thing is happening here, but here it's a little bit different. It is true that we have a mass migration issue, just like you do in London, but the main problem here is that you have a theological breakdown. So we have one of the most dangerous theologies, kind of theological pressings, which is Christian Zionism. That's a huge issue in the United States. It's a huge issue in your country. And that's a perversion of Christianity. And it's perverse and started only in the last hundred years. Before that, it didn't even exist. So those are the issues, I think, that really tear the entirety of the culture down is the theological destruction, not the government. The government is in democracy. Your government's a reflection of you. Right? Well, look in the mirror. It doesn't look very good, does it? Doesn't look very good. So. Well, you put them there, right? Well, so what's interesting about it is why do we put perverse people in positions of authority and positions of power and things like this? Well, it's because our ethical system has become perverse. That's what I think the issue is.
- [07:09]
B
Okay, so it's a drift from religion. And when you talk about the culture.
- [07:13]
A
Oh, hang on. It's not just religion. Think of a society or a culture as an entire block, Right. In order to make a culture work, there has to be a shared value set or it can't work. So I can't live next to cannibals. That's not going to work. And you can't live inside of societies and social orders where you don't have some sort of shared value, some sort of shared ethical foundation. You have to have that. That's important. The pagans had it, the Romans had it. Who were predominantly pagans, right? Jewish people have it, the Muslims have it. The list goes on and on and on. There has to be some sort of shared value set because otherwise you can't even do anything. You can't do business. How am I going to do business with you if I can't even perceive your value set? You can't do anything, can't raise a family, can't do any of the things that you would ordinarily want to do without that. So if that breaks down or the thing that you're appealing to is being destroyed, that is going to affect the entirety of the culture and that's where you're going to get your corrupt government.
- [08:26]
B
Okay? Okay. Understand? Okay. So you talked about the uk, say being a Christian nation, Christian values, and that culture's downstream from that. And you talked about, we've had a large number of Muslims come in the country. It's different culture. You can't mix the cultures, they've got different value sets. Where do you place the atheist within this? Would the atheist benefit from picking to live under a Christian rule set, Christian culture, even if they stayed atheist?
- [08:58]
A
Yeah. Oh yeah. Well, in fact, very, very predominant atheist said so. He said, I miss the Christmas carols. He said, I miss the Christmas carols and I miss the Christians doing the Christian stuff. And it's like, yeah, I'm sure you do. Okay. I'm sure you do. Because the value set that they have, right, it allows you to live inside of a society in which you can thrive even if you're not a Christian. Christians don't kill you for not being Christians. Muslims do kill you for not being Muslims. They're not kidding around to the faith. You have to come willingly or, or else you can't come at all. You can't be part of the club unless you come to it willingly. So Christians aren't going to kill you for not being a Christian. You can live inside Christian nations and not be a Christian and they don't kill you. So yeah, I think that that informs the culture in a significant way. And atheists have always been the benefactor of Christian ethics. 100%. They don't have any ethics. What do they appeal to? When you think about ethics or morality, you think about stance dependent or stance independent reasons for things. An atheist always has a stance dependent reason. This is moral or good because of how I feel about it, my stance on it. Now think about a stance independent reason. That would be some reason absent you or a mind maybe that you would claim this is in some way A moral fact outside of myself. Well, Christians are appealing to that, and that's unchanging. So if that's unchanging, then you always know where you're going to stand when it comes to Christianity. And so those universals create stability. So even pragmatically, even if you don't believe in Christianity or the Christian God, pragmatically, you should still probably support Christianity because most atheists seem to benefit greatly from the ethical system of Christians.
- [10:57]
B
Where does the authority come from in this? It come from the Bible.
- [11:01]
A
Well, well, let's start. Let's start by breaking this down.
- [11:04]
B
By the way, I'm a Catholic, but I'm not really a practicing. But I've definitely over the last two to three years felt a real drawback to Christianity. I've been looking for something.
- [11:18]
A
Yeah, well, Roman Catholicism draws authority somewhat similarly to the orthodox, which is what I am. Orthodox is set up with a synod of bishops. Okay. And they're the church authority, the Catholic Church, Roman Catholic Church. They have a pope, and the Pope is, you could say, is the church, or at least you would say the head of the Church. I would. I would say that particular figure is basically the authority of the Church, the ultimate authority of the Church. They would say Jesus Christ, Roman Catholics, which I would concede the point. I'm just talking in material terms. They draw their authority from not just the Church, but from the Bible and then from tradition, the same as the Orthodox. The distinction is the Orthodox don't change the tradition. Catholics often do because. Because they have popes. So that's the distinction. But that's where they would draw their authority from. So that would be baked into their meta. Ethical view. So if you're asking about the framing, the metaethics, how. How does. That's just asking, like, how do these ethics work? That's how they work.
- [12:31]
B
But there's no ambiguity. If you are orthodox Christian, what do you mean by that little ambiguity of where your moral line should be because it's derived from the Bible?
- [12:42]
A
Well, I mean, it's an impossibility to know the answer to every moral conundrum or question which would ever come up.
- [12:51]
B
There's a good base set of.
- [12:52]
A
Yeah, there's the. The primary things which would inform it. You wouldn't normally be confused about. Right. There may be some ethical dilemmas which would be difficult to navigate, but that really has no bearing on whether or not the ethical system itself is good or not.
- [13:10]
B
Right. Out of interest, have you always been religious, deeply religious, or have you come to it in A certain way.
- [13:18]
A
I always believed in God, and I always described myself as a Christian. But it's only later in life that I realized I didn't know shit about my own. I'll tell you what happened. I was talking to a friend of mine, and we were on this topic of Christianity, and he was talking about a book in the New Testament I wasn't very familiar with. And he was like, you don't know that? I said, no, let me ask you a question, man. He said, is your faith the most important thing in life to you? And I said, yeah, yeah, I think it is. He said, how come you don't know anything about it? That really pissed me off. Not because he was wrong. It pissed me off because he was right. He was 100% right. That did seem very strange that I always had identified as a Christian, definitely had faith, but didn't know anything about my own religion, didn't know church history. I didn't really know very much about it at all. Thought I knew it. Right. But I really didn't know much at all. And so I decided to go find out.
- [14:30]
B
When was this?
- [14:31]
A
Go learn. It's about five years ago.
- [14:35]
B
Yeah, so there's like. There's a whole, like, period of time
- [14:39]
A
about six, maybe six. Six years ago.
- [14:41]
B
I've listened to a couple of your G's. I listen to you on Rogan, listen to your trick show recently. Like, I'm aware of the journey, right? The COVID lockdowns, debating crazy people online.
- [14:52]
A
Yeah.
- [14:55]
B
And then. But I. But I assumed this kind of. This religious moment was around the same time.
- [15:04]
A
It started before the COVID lockdowns did.
- [15:08]
B
Okay.
- [15:09]
A
It started before that. The. The. The issue came into place. Like, I didn't know where to start.
- [15:16]
B
That's why. That's why I don't know where to start.
- [15:18]
A
Yeah. Like, where do you even. Or to even begin? So, like everyone else, I went online and started listening, you know, podcast things like this. And it was actually my wife. She was the one who turned me onto orthodoxy. And first thing I said is, like, that's heretical. Crazy cult stuff. That's the very first thing that came out of my mouth, fool that I am. And my wife's like, okay, well, you know, you're kind of the head of the household. We're going to do what you want, but you should look into it. And I was like, yeah, whatever, woman. You know what I mean? And then she pestered me about it again, and I gave her the yeah, whatever, woman again. And then it was like, third or fourth time. I was like, fine, I'll look into this with you. And it's the best decision I ever made. So I did started looking into it. Started at first just consuming mild content about it. You know, just try to understand how it worked. Then we started going to a church to check it out. I remember that was an experience. And I was talking to the priest after and he's like, so how was your first time in an Orthodox church? And I said, it was strange. He said, because it's formal. I said, what do you mean? He said, well, when you go to worship God, don't you think that that should be like a big deal? That's a pretty good point. He's like, isn't it kind of embarrassing when people flail their hands and, and make it very performative and make it kind of more about them and look at me than about the actual worship, ritualistic worship of the creator of the universe? I thought that's a really good point too. Right. You're selling me here. So we went through and I had a long catechesis. I was an inquirer first and then I was a catechumen for years before.
- [17:12]
B
What does that mean?
- [17:13]
A
It just means like, let's just say, like Orthodox Christian in training. When you properly catechize Christians, One of the problems with evangelical churches is you come in and say, they'll say, do you love Jesus? And you say, yes. They go, bam, Baptized. Now you're Christian. Well, you got a problem there, which is that that's the creation of a heresy machine. So if you're not familiar with the dogma or you don't understand the ins and outs of the religion, I'm not saying you have to have large expertise, but you should at least understand what you're agreeing to. But they don't. They mostly don't. And so what a catechesis is, you'll see this in Protestant high church. High church would be something more akin to what sacramental Catholic or Orthodox church, let's say, let's call a high church, or the Catholics or the Orthodox. They will go through the. They'll take on a catechumen. And essentially what they're doing is they're making sure that they understand not only what they're agreeing to, but what the dogma is before they agree to it. And I think, I think that that's missing in Protestant church. I think it's a big problem.
- [18:20]
B
So when you think, I mean, I know you heard, you explain to yourself as a Christian nationalist, you want to.
- [18:25]
A
Yeah, We're Christian populist is probably better. I think the Christian nationalist is pretty click baity. People just like the bait, but I think Christian populist actually captures it better.
- [18:38]
B
Are you considering this as a soft theocracy?
- [18:42]
A
No, it doesn't need to be a theocracy at all. The proposition of Christian nationalism is not a push towards a theocratic state. It never has been there. There are some Christian nationalists, I'm sure, who would prefer theocracy, but it's an unnecessary component. The entirety of the proposition is that Christians should embody all aspects dominate culture, government and institutional power. That's the idea of Christian nationalism. Not that you have to radically change things into a theocracy.
- [19:19]
B
It's necessary, like a spine through everything.
- [19:22]
A
Yes, it's the glue.
- [19:24]
B
Yeah.
- [19:24]
A
So when you think about a culture, if you think about different forms of nationalism, civic nationalism, cultural nationalism, ethnic nationalism, these are your three keys. Civic nationalism kind of fails in the way that they kind of believe in magic dirt theory. The idea that if you come in and you adopt just kind of like the similar worldviews of whatever the current glue is, then, hey, you're part of us now. That's great. Problem is, is that people have radically different views and they tend to subvert cultures. So bringing in a lot of people into your culture who don't agree with your cultural standards usually change your culture, as you're seeing in the uk. That's a big problem with civic nationalism. It's a big hole that happens. Now, that's not the entirety of the view, but it's a big hole in the view. Now ethno nationalism gets a little bit better. So they're saying, like, look, we agree there needs to be some kind of glue, and we think that that glue is race. And if everybody's the same race or it's dominated by the same race, you're going to get a lot more cultural cohesion. Now, there's some truth in that, right? If you have a racially homogenous group in a nation, they actually do tend to get along better than if you have mixed racial demographics in large percentages in nations. That's factually correct. Scream racism or whatever you want. I'm just giving you the facts. Cultural nationalism is looking at the problem in a more holistic way. It's saying that culture has underpinnings of glue which hold it all together. Now, race alone, that's not what holds the culture together. Maybe it helps. Maybe it helps that everybody is homogenous, I think, certainly. But the value Underpinning seems to be the, like reinforced glue, that there's some sort of shared value structure there. An example in the United States might be something you'd point to. That's easy from the civic nationalist perspective is patriotism. When I was growing up, people were pretty patriotic. We said the Pledge of Allegiance, you know, things like this. It was, you're pretty patriotic. When 911 hit, the recruiters off station had soldiers, you know, going a mile to. For people to get in because they were going to go kill the shit out of whoever the hell attacked us. That's, that's a very American kind of thing, a very American type of glue. The patriotism, like, we'll put all of our differences aside to go kill you, okay? If you fuck with us, we're going to. We'll put all of our differences aside and we're going to go kill you. And that's the end of that. Well, there's something to be said about that acting as a glue. Now, it's not the whole of the glue that holds society together, right? But it's a piece of it. And so when you start taking all of those pieces and you start taking them out one at a time, the whole thing caves in. Right. So what is the underpinnings that allows all of these more micro pieces like patriotism, family value, not polygamy, but instead, you know, a single wife for a single man. Right. The idea of family, families need to be raised by their parents, things like this, the underpinnings, there are all one thing, Christianity. So that informs all of these other things. So Christian nationalism is a cultural nationalistic viewpoint and lens in which to view society as a whole and then identify problems within it. And usually the problems that you identify is when you start moving away from the ethical purview. And so that's the guideline to do that.
- [23:25]
B
And do you find this is. Do you find like I find in the uk, there's almost been, there's, I felt like an attack on religion for a good 10 to 15 years. Well, yeah, I mean, but, but I think a more recent like political attack on Christianity, but I feel like in, certainly in the uk, that all the kind of hopes and dreams that have come from the lives that we should have and what technology will bring and what culture will bring, and it's just not happened. We have a very angry and upset nation at the moment. I think, I think our country's depressed. Do you think Christianity is something that can bring people back? Do you think it's people looking for that filling that hole in their life,
- [24:13]
A
not only are they looking for it, but they tell you the thing specifically within it.
- [24:17]
B
Yeah.
- [24:17]
A
That they want the worst. And this is the quiet part, out loud. Christian atheism and secularists, they cannot produce a single. This single result, which is what really the key is, which is community. They can't reproduce community. They try, they try all sorts of different things through community organizing or some value set that you can strive towards, you know, things like this. But the church itself and churches themselves, they act as a strengthening bond in community. So if you're heavily religious, you're heavily Christian, and what I mean by that is you don't just go a lot, but you partake in sacraments and you're heavily involved in your community itself. Your divorce rates, they plummet, right? Generally your satisfaction levels go up. These things go up. Well, why? It's because you have a massive community support network. Huge community support network. You have the entirety of a church behind you, man. Like, they're rooting for you. They're there for you. They're like, man, we really want you to do well in life. We want your marriage to stay together. We're going to help you out, we're going to make sure that your wife gets the proper counseling or that if you guys are having marriage troubles, that we can really sort this out. You know, they're. They're there for you, Right? That's the whole point. Like, we. They're rooting for you. Where the hell else does that happen? What institutions ever rooting for you, man?
- [25:52]
B
Yeah, yeah, I know.
- [25:54]
A
There's not any. In fact, they're all trying to fuck you. Right?
- [25:59]
B
Look, in the uk, the institution of the pub is rooting for you.
- [26:03]
A
They're not even rooting for you.
- [26:04]
B
Yeah, they are your buddies. Well, they'll laugh at you when they fail, but make fun of you. But they secretly want you to win. No, I understand it.
- [26:10]
A
Yeah. There's nothing. And that is not a thing which is replicated. They have a moral duty to root for you. Imagine that from just a purely pragmatic lens. Forget Christianity altogether for a second. Just like from the purely pragmatic lens, imagine having access to a community of people who are morally obligated to root for you and assist you in your life to achieve the various things you're trying to achieve within the moral framework of that religion. Like, of course people miss that. Of course. They're like, well, this is great. Of course they find it again and they're like, this is. I don't Know what was the hole that this filled? I'm confused. Like, that's the hole. The whole is, is that we're communal creatures, we live in communities, we live with each other, we rely on each other. And we've become a very, the west has become a very cutthroat place of people just trying to knife each other in the back. And I got to get on top. And it's a dog eat dog world and this and that, right? And so it just becomes this like pound you down every day, just, you just get peeked down a little bit more, A little bit more, A little bit more. And every man watching this, including you, nodding your head right now. Understand exactly what I'm saying by you just get pounded and pounded and pounded from every angle at all times. And it's like. And then there's this one thing. There is this one thing, this whole community who's like, nah, man, it's all right, we got you. We're going to help you out here, you know. Yeah, we're doing, we're dealing with the same things, but don't worry, we have you. That is not a thing which can be replicated. And they've tried, Secularists have tried many times to replicate it. Atheists have tried to replicate it. They have clubs, they have various things like this. But they can't give you the moral obligation for it.
- [28:11]
B
They miss the glue.
- [28:12]
A
They miss the glue. The moral obligation. You as a Christian, you have a moral obligation to support your brothers, right? An actual obligation to do so. Where the hell else is that? Nowhere.
- [28:27]
B
All right, let's talk to you about my sponsor, Leden. Now, if you're borrowing against your Bitcoin, there's one thing that matters more than anything else. Is it actually safe? Well, Leden have just dropped their lowest rates ever. But more importantly, they haven't changed the thing that matters most. Your Bitcoin is never lent out, so they're not chasing yield. There's no hidden risk and there's no rehypothecation. Just collateralized loans done properly. Now, they've done over $10 billion in loans. And they've done this through bull markets, through bear markets and everything in between. And they've done it without ever losing any client assets. So now you get lower rates, which means the bigger the loan, the lower the rate. And full transparency before you apply. There's no monthly payments or early repayment penalties. And they give you tools to stay in control from auto top ups to, to LTV alerts. So you're not choosing between a good rate and safety anymore, because with Leaden you get both. Now you can check out your rate using the calculator at Leddon IO. Peter, I tell you something I've noticed back in the uk, you might have noticed here as well, but I'll tell you a personal story and then a general story. Personal story was ambition, like ambition in life. Go to school, work hard. I didn't bother with university. I dropped out. But like work hard, build a business, you know, you know, make money, did all of that and got to the point I thought I was meant to be. And I was like, I don't, I don't feel that thing. I meant to feel like, where is it? And I meant to feel some, I can afford the shopping and have a holiday, but like, where's that thing? I meant to feel it just doesn't happen. Even with the podcast before I told you, it's really. Well, didn't feel that thing. I mean, maybe, maybe temporarily.
- [30:03]
A
You mean fulfillment?
- [30:04]
B
Yeah, well, like temporarily like a guy in an elevator in New York going, oh, I listen to your podcast. That's kind of a cool moment. But like general life and film, it just didn't exist with that. And so that was, that's like on a personal level. But I have noticed quite a lot recently, and especially with women, there is this, this feeling is like, what am I doing this all for? Yeah. I've seen the videos on like TikTok or Instagram where women saying, why am I going to work? I don't want to do this. And so I think there's generally a lot of people are feeling like, well, this whole system, you said it beats you down. It kind of works backwards.
- [30:42]
A
Yeah.
- [30:42]
B
It works against you.
- [30:43]
A
Yeah. You know why? It's because we organize it. We organize it in the dumbest way possible. So.
- [30:49]
B
Well, look, yeah, I mean in multiple ways, but I do always. I come back to the money and the corruption of the state as well. You know, it doesn't matter how hard you work, they just take more and more and more. Everything gets more expensive and shitter. And my son, my son's 21 and we watched his film mid-90s. I've brought up on the pod a few times and I remember watching at the end of it, he's like, oh, dad, you've got to live in the coolest time.
- [31:11]
A
He rejects this modern world and who can blame him? But you know, you keep. As we're having the conversation, I sense a lot of libertarian, A lot of libertarian style thoughts in your head.
- [31:25]
B
It's this real? Yeah.
- [31:26]
A
And I'm going to try to do my best in the nicest way possible. Beat all those thoughts right out of your brain because the terrible, like the idea when you say government corruption, the government's corrupt. Government's just a coalition of people and they're people who you usually put in place right yourself. Now there's lots of cases you can make for. Not really. It's a two party system in the United States, for instance, and it's not like the way that you do voting in the UK is much better. And the fact that you can end up with like, I think only 13% wins the entire thing, just based on the various rounds. I'm not exactly an expert in the UK voting, but I think that it's very similar to Canadian voting, if not the exact same system.
- [32:13]
B
You got to get MPs. Yeah, you got to get MPs. You got to get up. But you really want enough to get a parliamentary majority, otherwise you have a hung part.
- [32:20]
A
Right.
- [32:20]
B
Which is what we're heading towards.
- [32:21]
A
So you can give your party votes to another party too. Yeah.
- [32:24]
B
You can have coalitions, but they always fail. I actually envy parts of the US system. Like you get a decision, I know it goes to court sometimes afterwards, but you get a decision and once you've got a decision, you actually run the institutions. We don't. The institutions are mostly independent and they work against the government. I mean, I don't think either system's perfect. Let me just. On the libertarian thing, I'm not like this utopian no government libertarian.
- [32:50]
A
Sure.
- [32:50]
B
I'm more like small government. Yeah. Look, just, can we just. Can government get 1% smaller next year and then 1. Just a bit smaller just because the way the money gets extracted away up into the top I just think is kind of bullshit.
- [33:07]
A
Up into the top, you mean the top percentage of society, like the asset
- [33:11]
B
holders, the way the money works, the way inflation works. I don't want to tell you something you may already know, but government creates money, banks create money. It goes to the people mainly who've got money, therefore they buy the assets. The asset going prices when everything else does. But if you hold the assets, you can leverage them and then you have more money. And the people at the bottom, they get smaller. Coffee, smaller chocolate bars, smaller. Houses just get less.
- [33:34]
A
Yeah.
- [33:34]
B
So it's kind of. Inflation is kind of a crushing force on society, I think.
- [33:38]
A
Yeah, well, I mean. And it always will be. Yeah. I don't, I don't. I think it's inevitable that you're going to end up with a currency and that there's going to be inflation deflation. With any currency, nothing's ever stable. Not even gold? Not even gold. I mean, even the Romans suffered from inflation deflation as well. I agree, in a sense that there's necessarily going to be corruption inside of government, and the larger the government gets, the more corruption there's going to be. That's going to be the same case with the church. The Catholic Church once upon a time spanned half of the globe, so there was a lot of corruption. It's not that the Catholic Church was corrupt, though. It's that you can't span half the globe and not have a lot of corruption. It's just not possible. So the larger an organization gets, the more chances arise for there to be corruption within that organization. The government's no different than that. Now, the government here, at least in the west, has some kinds of checks and balances against that and watchdogs and various things like that. A lot more than corporations do, that's for sure. The problem I have with libertarians always is I'm like, you know, it's funny there. I can point to places where there was no regulatory bodies and no government, and he ended up with things like railroad tycoons. You ended up with corporations who acted as though they were a governmental body. They didn't do better. They didn't do better. People still owed their soul to the company store and they did indentured servitude. They did all sorts of different things. Corporate powers themselves are not immune from the same exact corruption as governmental powers. It's just that if you span an organization large enough, you're going to end up with corruption necessarily.
- [35:19]
B
So, yeah, I don't disagree. But like I say, my, my position of being a libertarian is more like just. I just. We get left, right, left right gets bigger and bigger. Yeah, I just want the tension to. Between big and small.
- [35:30]
A
Yeah. Well, what is, what is the tension between big and.
- [35:33]
B
Like, it doesn't exist because the libertarians don't have any power. Because for the libertarians to be successful, they have to accumulate power, which is antithetical to being a libertarian.
- [35:42]
A
Can I ask you a question?
- [35:42]
B
Yeah.
- [35:44]
A
It's been my experience most of the time, if you sit, if you, if you meet a person who's super poor or, or somebody who's really rich and you sit down and you talk with them, if you ask a poor person, are you here, Are you in this situation because of things that you did or because of things that happened to you Most of the time. It's been my experience that they say, because of things that happened to me. Right? Things that happened to me. That's why I'm here. Not because of things I did, because of external forces that did bad things to me. Interestingly enough though, anytime I talk to a person who has wealth and I say, are you here because of things that happen to you or because of you? They say, I'm here because of me. Yeah, I'm here because of me. To me, what that signaling always is, the one is always taking essentially the view that I'm responsible for myself and my decisions probably are what got me here more than external forces. And the other one is not. And it seems like the wealthy people are the ones who have the ability to understand like my decisions and weight and planning and things like this actually matter regardless of external forces. And generally speaking, poor people don't seem to understand that. And people say, well, that's because they don't have the right economic training or they don't have the correct understanding of how these things work. And I'm like, no, I don't think so. I just think a lot of people are really fucking dumb. Like, I mean, honestly, I just think that. I think that you could give a dumb person all the financial training in the world and they don't care. They want to go see the movie and the movie costs $20 and I'm not going to delay gratification, so I'm going to go see the movie. So, like, how is it not always going to be the case that wealth goes to the top when most people mismanage it on purpose because they want thing. I want thing.
- [37:46]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think the honest answer is a bit of both. Like, I was lucky to be born in England, right? Fortunately, I wasn't born in Ethiopia, I was born in England.
- [37:56]
A
Sure.
- [37:57]
B
And I was lucky to be born to parents, like, who worked hard. And my dad was shift work and put the money into a good schooling. But then I also worked hard myself, like really fucking hard myself. So I think, I think the only honest answer is so and for everyone, it's a random combination of the two. It's whether they're honest enough to recognize it. Because I take the position of I benefit from the way the money system works. I'm an asset holder. If I'm an asset holder, I benefit from inflation, I'm on the other side of it, but I don't want it. I see how the financial system works and extracts from the poorest 80, 90% within a nation to give the top 10, 20%. It's probably really top 10% or even
- [38:43]
A
up to the top 1%.
- [38:44]
B
Yeah, but that's a grossly unfair system.
- [38:47]
A
Well, how do you make it fair? Well, how do you make it fair without using government intervention and big government to go in and start making lots of policy and then enforcing it?
- [38:59]
B
Well, actually I, I think the, the anti federalists were right.
- [39:04]
A
Really?
- [39:04]
B
Yeah, I think, I think because they tried it.
- [39:08]
A
Do you know that in the Articles of Confederation we had what you're discussing right now before there was a United States separate money. Well, each state had their own separate money. That was a big problem. They had a hard time trading with each other and they had a hard time with inflation. They had a hard time with all sorts of different things. They actually solved a lot of those issues when they federalized.
- [39:31]
B
Yeah, but when they fed. Look, I'm okay with the idea of a single currency. What happened across the. I think it's the central bank that is the primary issue to me. Or given the government access to the infinite money printer, which obviously comes from digital money. That's a problem.
- [39:44]
A
But I mean people have been loaning against money they don't have in their vaults since, I mean 2,000 years ago. Since tally sticks.
- [39:52]
B
Right, but that was a free market for bank. And the bank could fail.
- [39:55]
A
Right.
- [39:55]
B
That was a risk you took. And if the bank failed, it didn't have the money. If it was run on the bank, then so be it. That was the issue. And yes, people lost in that instance. But now we've centralized that around central banks and governments and allowing them to just. This is what seems like just open corruption to me. I mean look, there's no, there's no easy answer to this. It's same with the health system, right. You have a private health system here and people can't afford to get health care. And in the UK we have a, the nhs, which is free at the point of use. And, and there's endless waiting times and those got real like there's no perfect
- [40:31]
A
system because people will book appointments because my elbow feel funny. Yeah. And. And so they bog the system down because it's free.
- [40:37]
B
Yeah, there's no perfect system. What's the trajectory towards a better system?
- [40:42]
A
Yeah, but I'm not even saying that I'm looking for the perfect. Right. So like Dave Smith, libertarian Dave Smith, he always says the don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Right. There's some wisdom in that. It's A slogan, right. And I'm going to make fun of him for it for years. But, but there's some, but there's some wisdom to it in the wisdom is, is like we don't have to have utopia or nothing. But when you say I want to move towards something that's even better. It's easy to identify problems, but doesn't seem to be very easy to identify solutions to them. The UK system and the Canadian health care system. It's true, there's a lot of relief, financial relief when it comes to getting treatment. The problem is getting the treatment and the outcomes. And the outcomes. And so. And what happens is if you incentivize people through this is free, right, and your taxes are paying for it, then they'll go and bog your system down for a cough. Do cold. They'll bog your system down for, you know, just nonsense. Some people just think there's something wrong with them and there isn't and they want to go get test, you know, they'll bog your entire system down when you have to pay for it. Well, people are a lot more choosy about bogging the system down then, aren't they? They're like, well, I don't know if I want to go spend $500 because my finger hurts a little bit today. You know, it's like, so that's the general idea and I understand the concept. Moving over to the central bank aspect of it, I understand the criticisms. There's. I understand the criticisms with Keynesian economics. I get it, I understand. But ultimately, if you don't have an Alan Greenspan who's sitting at the levers of inflation and raising inflation and lowering it to contract and then expand the money supply, the system doesn't work that poorly. It doesn't work terribly. The question that I had about it for libertarians, I remember when the movie Zeitgeist came out and when all these different movies came out, they're really hammering the central bank concept and I thought it was interesting and they make a lot of valid points, you know, fractional reserve banking being one of them, all of this type of thing. I think that there's very good points that are made there, but they never answer a pivotal question that I have, which is how do you, if you wanted to get rid of interest and usury, how, how the hell do people get money and capital to start businesses who would loan you money if they weren't going to get a return on the money they loaned you?
- [43:20]
B
So I don't think there's an Issue with interest. I think the issue is with money creation, the creation of money out of thin air. So when a fractional reserve bank and a bank can create a loan to you to go and buy a house and that money is just switch on a machine, suddenly there's more money, there's. And those. I mean, if you go and look back when we had zero percent interest rates, where was all the money going to stop? Buybacks. And so you've got an advantage, you've got a huge and significant advantage being able to understand and play the money system. If you've got money, you can play it. Of course, like I know how to play it. And it's, it's still kind of gross.
- [44:01]
A
Yeah.
- [44:02]
B
Because. Because it, you still have to squeeze people at the bottom. I mean, I don't know what's. But it's like for you here, for me, I've come here, the US and everything seems fucking expensive compared to the uk and the UK seems expensive. I bought a bottle of water, a coffee and a granola yogurt this morning. It was 25 bucks.
- [44:19]
A
Yeah.
- [44:20]
B
So that's about 18 pounds.
- [44:21]
A
Yeah.
- [44:22]
B
So in the UK that would be about 13 pounds and that seems expensive. Like everything's getting expensive everywhere. I don't even know how some people are coping.
- [44:30]
A
They're not coping well. They're not doing well. No.
- [44:33]
B
Is it bad, is it bad here as well?
- [44:35]
A
Yeah, well, I mean, food prices are not low, that's for sure. And gas prices are up and home prices are through the roof. Yeah. So there's, I mean there's definitely issues and a lot of that's inflationary and some of it comes from the COVID relief that we're just now experiencing the effects of. What happens if we give, you know, billions and billions and billions of dollars of free money to the populace? Well, that's going to come back around. It's going to inflate the currency. The more you expand the currency, the less value it is, the less value it has.
- [45:07]
B
But should there be a goal then to. Should government? The Keynesian argument was in the Great Depression you had to find a way of getting out of it. You had to create the money to get. And the Keynesian argument was it was there for times of emergency. Now if you look now we're in permanent emergency.
- [45:25]
A
Well, that was also looking at demand side economics, not just supply side.
- [45:30]
B
Right, sure.
- [45:30]
A
But that was an important part of that whole equation from Keynes.
- [45:34]
B
But it's like permanent crisis now and a permanent need to constantly expand the money supply. There's a, there's an obvious benefit. We used to run a surplus in the UK.
- [45:43]
A
Yeah.
- [45:43]
B
I mean we're, I mean we're only
- [45:45]
A
3 trillion at GDP go up.
- [45:47]
B
GDP go up.
- [45:47]
A
Yeah. GDP go up. All that matters is that GDP go up. You also, they also expand human capital to do this, which I think that's where of the mass migration the US comes in is expansion of human capital. Because GDP go up.
- [45:59]
B
GDP go up, but GDP per capita doesn't go up.
- [46:03]
A
Doesn't go up. Well, and wages don't really go up. At least they don't meet with inflation. Right. Wages don't seem to meet with inflation. So people have to do a bit more with less.
- [46:15]
B
Right.
- [46:16]
A
But on the other hand, there's a flip side to this which is interesting. The poor people who are here are still richer than the poor people who came before them.
- [46:29]
B
Sure.
- [46:29]
A
And so that's the wild aspect of this is like, yeah, the rich are getting richer, but so are the poor people. Poor people are getting richer too.
- [46:36]
B
They're not going hungry. But I think sometimes it's relative for people. Right. As well. Yeah. That, you know, compared to 50 years ago, 100 years ago, 200 years ago. But at the same time we live in a, you know, global society where everyone just sees everything all the time. They just feel like they don't have much compared to others.
- [46:53]
A
Yeah. But there's also, there's also another issue which is in the Great Depression people had to do without. I mean.
- [47:03]
B
Yeah.
- [47:03]
A
For instance, I was talking to a gal the other day, her grandma kept rubber band balls, just like balls of rubber bands because they kept everything in the great to preach. You never know when you're going to need a rubber band. Now I got a lifetime supply of rubber bands, so I'm not going to have to go buy them. Right. In some ways I think that informed a lot of spending habits in a big way that was very helpful to people and they understood what it's like to go without. But we live in a pretty materialistic based society. People want it and they want it right now and they'll spin themselves into debt and oblivion in order to do that. And a lot of these things are these traps of like the higher ups putting the squeeze on the little guy. They really couldn't do that if the spending habits of people drastically changed. But people are pretty irresponsible with money. And so of course it's going to go up to people who are not irresponsible with money. They're going to find Ways to figure out how to remove your money from your wallet and give it to themselves. Of course they are. But isn't that always going to be the case, that you're going to have an elite class that just understands, hey, if I actually understand how to manage money and manage time with money, then I'm going to be able to make a lot of money.
- [48:24]
B
Sure, sure. Look, and I agree, you'll always have an elite class. I think my contention is this. I don't know if you talk about, if you've got kids, you talk about it, but I've got two kids, right? And so I think about what do I leave them with? I can leave them with capital or property and hopefully some wisdom and some knowledge and some ideas how to be like a good person.
- [48:43]
A
Leave them with nothing, figure it out, do the Bill Gates thing, just be like, I'll burn it before you get it done anyway. Go ahead.
- [48:54]
B
Usually my son makes my show with me. If you would in London, he would have been there and he'd been, he'd been staring you down at that point.
- [49:00]
A
That's right.
- [49:00]
B
But. But like, you want to leave it with some things, like just some opportunity. And if, if you think about it like for your kids to have a good life, you want their peers to have a good life too, right? The people around them. But at the moment, the way society operates is the way the debt works, is that we are constantly borrowing from our kids future for what we want now collectively as adults. And when you think about it, it's like if somebody asks you to make a sacrifice for your kids, I don't know about you, I'd make sacrifices for my kids and I'd make sacrifice for my kids. Peers. Right? But collectively, when it comes to the collective next generation, the Zoomers, we aren't. We're just saying, you're fucked. We want stuff now, we want shit now, we don't want debt. But give me a government that says, you know what? We want kids to have home. I mean, I know you want kids to own homes, to have jobs, be able to have children, and hopefully one salary could pay for that home like it used to be. Right, right. And to do that, we, we have to change this financial system. And the reason I bring it up is because I think I know the world. You, you like the one you want? Because I think it's similar to what I want, which is family structure, community, children, people having children. It's the best thing, the best thing in the world.
- [50:16]
A
Agreed.
- [50:16]
B
They've got to be able to afford it. So for. For Christian to work, you have. You have to be able to afford Christian nationalism and to avoid Christian.
- [50:26]
A
Yeah. Because it's the poorest. People have the most kids.
- [50:32]
B
Is that true?
- [50:33]
A
Yeah,
- [50:36]
B
but is that what we want?
- [50:37]
A
Well, I just. What I'm pointing out is that this cope of like people aren't having kids because he can't afford it. People used to have kids in ditches.
- [50:50]
B
Yeah, sure.
- [50:50]
A
Okay. They. The like the need to reproduce, the overwhelming desire to reproduce was never curtailed by materialism. It's a rough world out there. Right. And it's a tough place to be.
- [51:04]
B
Things curtailing it now then?
- [51:06]
A
Well, one. There's only one factor, really. Well, there's more than one. Sorry. That there's never one. Right. There's always multiple correlates. But I can give you the main factor. It's that women are supposed to get pregnant in their 20s and they're not because they go to college instead. That's it. That's really the. It's really the primary thing. They take their reproductive years and they spend them in college and they don't have kids. So they start having kids when they're in their very late twenties or early thirties where it's much more difficult. Not only more difficult, but you're probably not going to have very many. And they don't. They have unless they're under replacement, which means they're not replacing dad and mom. So you got to have at least two kids. You got to replace you and you got to replace the woman. Right. That's two. So you got to have at least two. She's got to have at least two kids to replace just you two. In order to expand the population, she has to have three. Right. So that's not what's happening. We're way under replacement rate. So population.
- [52:04]
B
It's 2.3 the actual replacement rate, isn't it? For some reason, like deaths, you actually
- [52:09]
A
kind of want it a little higher. You want it around like 3.5. Like 4 or 5 is even better.
- [52:15]
B
But that's a growth rate.
- [52:17]
A
Well, but if it's the case that your population isn't growing. Right. And you. So if we still have 330 million people now and we had 330 million people 25 years ago, where the hell are they coming from? Well, they replace the domestic population with immigrants. That's what they do. So that's how it works. If the population doesn't replace itself, it's going to be replaced. So that's a huge issue in Society. But that's not because of poor people not having kids. Poor people have kids like crazy. It's family planning. Like rich people and middle class people, they do family planning. Right. Like long term, long term thought process goes into this. So they're not just having kids, it's those irresponsible poor people who are having all the kids. So that's kind of backwards. Right. But as far as you saying, hey, people aren't having kids because they can't afford them, it's like they seem to have more kids if they can't afford them.
- [53:18]
B
Actually I think it's a different argument, different levels maybe that I don't know the stats. So maybe at the poorest level that argument works because it's, it's a, it's. Yeah. Based on welfare. Based on. They can afford it through living on welfare. In the uk we, we're pretty good to people who don't have jobs and don't have kids. Sorry, who don't have jobs.
- [53:38]
A
So are we, but we, you know,
- [53:39]
B
we have a large middle class, but that's declining and I would say it's within the middle class where they can't afford it because they've got this set picture of the world. They want, they want to go to college, get a job, earn a six figure salary, then get their house, but they're not getting the six figure salaries and they're not able to move out. And even like, even if they're getting a good start, if you get a hiss, you. My dad, my dad's an aircraft engineer, my mom wasn't. She had three kids. Right. The first house he bought was 12,000 pound and he was on three and a half thousand pound salary. So it's about just under four times. The same house now costs 380,000 pound and the same salary is about 35,000. So it's now 10x that. And so that's been a problem for the middle class in that the middle class kids trying to get on that ladder. And I just, I witness it through my son, I see the experience he's going through.
- [54:33]
A
Yeah, but that's, but how is this not a problem with the way that we're organizing society? Oh, it totally is, yeah. The idea is you want women to go in the workforce, that's going to create more, more money in the workforce. Right. Doesn't that naturally lead to inflation? The same inflation that you don't want to see?
- [54:52]
B
Sure, because you've got an oversupply of.
- [54:55]
A
Yeah, exactly. And a lot of it's Useless labor. And then you have a useless market in universities where these women go and get degrees that they don't even use in the private sector. They're just told that they need to go to a university and then that cuts their reproductive years, right? So they don't have as many children and they're getting married older. And oftentimes now they're getting married after going through 50, 60 men. Right. And that becomes less appealing when they're in their 30s then to marry them. And where do they meet all these men and get, and do all these parties and do all this degenerate shit? You guessed it, college, right? So go off to university, do degenerate shit, get a degree that they almost never use, right. Barely ever use them. They get them in, you know, psychology, saturated market. They get them in, you know, communications, saturated market. All these are saturated markets. It's very difficult to use those degrees for anything useful. So now you have a propped up industry. Right. But where that's a problem of organization, should the propaganda should just be going the other direction, shouldn't it? Instead of saying, hey, young women, you should go to college and sacrifice your reproductive years for a job, just send the opposite message of like, hey, you should really be focusing in your 20s on, you know, settling down, getting married, looking at having children. Here's incentives and tax breaks for having them in massive quantities. And by the way, society is going to find very good ways to thank you. Like if you're a mom, you and you're married, you know, we're going to kind of elevate you a little bit socially. You're going to see, you know, you could run propaganda for that. So an example of this, and I'm sure it's the same way in the UK when your soldiers are in uniform. I'm guessing that there's a certain amount of like social etiquette and respect that's usually given to them.
- [56:45]
B
Sure. I've seen it different here. I mean, where you get the, you get the soldiers gets go on the planes first. We, when you wish, Shamu, we stand and clap them.
- [56:55]
A
Well, we have, we have a volunteer force, but even when we don't and we have draft, we look at it the same way. Like, look, that's that whole patriotism thing, right?
- [57:05]
B
It's more so here. Like I've even noticed just with the whole thank you for your service. But we have it. We do have it. Yeah, sure.
- [57:13]
A
Well, these are, these are our brothers and our sons and you know, this type of thing who are fighting oftentimes in wars for our interests, right? And sometimes even unjust ones most of the time. And we shifted away from the Vietnam era hippie who blamed the soldier to actually blaming people who sent the soldier. Right? And so there's, there's a lot of that patriotism, which is still in the undercurrent. A lot of it's been eroded, but it's still in the undercurrent. This, this whole idea of like, hey, you serve, there's some extra privilege. What they're doing is they're getting an extra set of honor, right? The way that society even responds to them is just like, well, the soldiers are getting on first. People are like, well, of course. Well, of course they are. Those are U.S. soldiers. Those are our boys. Of course they go first, right? Former military. Well, of course they did their time. Of course they go first in the buffet line. Of course they get a military discount. Nobody thinks twice about it. That's giving an extra set of like, privilege and honor for a thing that you did that we consider to be very honorable. You do the same exact thing for motherhood. You can do the same exact thing for family dynamics, which are mommy, daddy, kids. You can give the same type of, kind of social honorifics. And we do, in a way. In a way we already do. For instance, people are more likely to trust family men. There's a reason for that, right? Because it already displays that they're responsible, loyal, loyal. Also, corporations and companies more likely to hire men with families, they're far less likely to go job shopping. They need that stability, don't they? And so they look at it and they go, okay, you're a single man and you're a man with a family, and you have an identical set of skills. I'm taking the guy with the family. They say, well, why? Well, because he's probably not going to be doing much job shopping. He's got a nice, stable job. He knows he needs to come every day. He knows he needs to work. He knows he needs to support his family. And if it's stable, right, then he's a happy guy.
- [59:13]
B
He's gone home.
- [59:14]
A
Now, the single guy, on the other hand, he can be like, well, I could be out of work for a couple of months. Screw this place. I'll be fine. You know, and now all that investment that they put in him is now problematic. So there's already certain privileges that come along with it anyway with just the very idea that you're probably a more responsible person, more loyal, ill person, right? Things like this Also, you'll even hear this, oh, come on, man, that guy's got a family, right? Like maybe a company's going to cut a person out or they're going to downsize or this or that might be a lot more likely to downsize. People who don't have a family. Just off the base principle of like, come on, we can't get rid of him, he's got kids at home. Right? Meaning we know and understand that there's mouths to feed that this guy's responsible for. And we have some sort of empathy towards that, that in a way that we don't towards this other class. Right? That's all like holdover honorifics. All I'm talking about doing is like really super turbocharging that shit to like 9,000. Right?
- [60:17]
B
All right, so you see, you see, and I would agree with you, but you see the birth rate as an existential problem for the nation of America, as I do.
- [60:26]
A
It's the still least talked about, largest problem on planet Earth. Yeah.
- [60:31]
B
And so you've diagnosed it. And your solution to use Christian nationalism. How do you sell that to such a large number of people? Because how do you sell, how do you sell to all young women that you know, yes, go to school, but you probably shouldn't go to college, should find a guy, you should settle down, you should be having children young. How do you sell that to the young guy? Because we sold hedonism for so long to young people. Like, how do you reverse it feels like. And look, I know, I know one of the answers is, is that my daughter? I had the conversation a man's not meant to have with a woman, but of course I'm gonna have it with her. I said to her, you know, if you want to be a mother, you should be thinking about this in your early 20s and be prepared, be ready for it. And by the way, if you don't want to do the career thing, if you don't want to have a long term career, if you want to do something more in the community and yeah, maybe settle down, I will support you as your father, but that's one guy on his own, you know, who thinks like this. And you're probably similar.
- [61:28]
A
Ish.
- [61:30]
B
How do you make that? It's almost like we're on a war footing here to solve this.
- [61:35]
A
A war footing.
- [61:36]
B
I'm almost like a war. If this is exercise.
- [61:38]
A
Thousand percent. Yeah, you're in an ideological conflict right now. Massive ideological conflict.
- [61:44]
B
But do you think, how do you win that?
- [61:47]
A
Because it's a well, this is now an infowar, interestingly enough, political commentator Alex Jones.
- [61:55]
B
Yes.
- [61:56]
A
Who is currently in a tit for tat with Donald Trump. Because I think, I still think that the guy likes Trump, honestly, and I think Trump kind of likes him back. But egos in this thing, right, they're gonna, they're gonna go back and forth for a while. Maybe it'll settle down. But he was right years ago when he said, you know, primarily the weapons of. Of warfare have changed domestically into more of propaganda. But really, when I started looking at it, I recognized he was kind of wrong in that. Going all the way back to our revolution, the Revolutionary War, it was all propaganda. I mean, all of it was propaganda. The very axioms of the Bill of Rights propaganda or Declaration of Independence propaganda. It was all propaganda. Sounded really good, right? Got in that psyche and it really. I mean, just imagine how good it must have felt to hear that, like, we're free, right. God himself has ordained this land is ours. Right. That shit sounds amazing. And that'll really get people turbocharged, won't it? You know, that kind of propaganda. Just talking, I think, I think we just need to do the same thing back. The same way that we got here was through propagation in culture, subversion in culture, subvert it back, attack back the exact same way, just do it way harder. So that's what I do, right? I'm a very, very teeny, tiny, very teeny tiny gear in this large machine, for sure. But I feel like I'm a rock in the shoe. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to shove this down your throat, essentially, this idea. I'm going to walk into, wherever you are, I'm going to slap my balls on your table and say, fuck off. This is how it's going to be instead. Or I'll take your worldview on directly wherever it is that you are. And so the idea there is, I'm beginning the push to push out the information. What would be propaganda has a negative connotation, but the way that we're using it here in this context, it's just for ease of the viewer to understand. Everyone understands what propaganda is, right? A reverse propaganda. And yeah, that's what we need to do. You need to turbocharge it the other direction. And I think that the reason I've been very successful in what I do is because that's part of what I do. So I'm like, no, I'm going to refute all of this and I'm going to move towards Something that's prescriptive, that makes a lot of sense. And even progressives that I debate with often have to be like, okay, some of that makes a lot of sense. You're right. It's like, yeah, exactly. So if you can propagate it that way, all that you need to change it with women is take the social ideas of feminism and eliminate the trend of them and have the trend go the other way.
- [64:46]
B
Can you explain that to me?
- [64:47]
A
Yeah. So women tend to follow trends in a big way, and trends inform a lot of their social behavior. So I'll give you an example of this, and forgive my language, but I'm just going to be very blunt.
- [65:01]
B
I'm half Irish.
- [65:02]
A
A woman, let's say that a woman, publicly, they say, what do you want in a man? Okay. Do you think she's going to be like, I want a guy who's huge and buff and throws me on the fucking bed and just rails me? She's not going to say that shit, is she? Even if she really wanted that. Definitely not going to say that. Right. A man might. A man might be like. They say, what do you want in a woman? It might be like, oh, I want her to have sex with me every day. You know, I want her to, you know, be explorative when it comes to that, you know, and this type of thing, they're going to be a lot more blunt with that. They're going to tell you, in other words, what it is that they want. Right? Women, not so much. They don't. They actually tend to hide for the purpose of social cohesion, what they actually think about things and what they actually want, what they actually desire. A friend of mine, Homath. Yes, it's his real name.
- [66:00]
B
Is his real name.
- [66:00]
A
No, no, no. I mean, it's an online handle, of course, right. But Homath, he's a big content creator, but he points this phenomenon out a lot about the hiding of intention. He's right. There's a lot of hiding of intention. They're not ever going to tell you that. And they'll even lie. Be like, I want a sensitive guy who cares about my feelings. And we have a lot of talks about this, blah, blah, blah. They don't want any of that shit lying through their teeth. Now there's. Don't get me wrong, there's some women, I'm sure, who like that, right? And there's some women on the opposite spectrum who just want to be brutalized or all of that. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm Just saying that they will literally, for the purpose of, I'm going to be judged correctly by other women by having the correct woman think, which is, they just lie to you, right? I want a sensitive guy, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, no, you don't. You're lying through your teeth. And when you start diving into their view more, you find out that they are, and they kind of. Then they start to come clean after a while. Right? But you have to. You have to really kind of dig into the view. But that's all propaganda. That's 100% propaganda. It's like, if I say this thing, I'm going to be judged poorly on it, so I'm just not going to say it, even though that's actually what it is that I want. And again, if you can eliminate the trend towards feminism or the trend towards this, and you see some conservative women beginning on that path, right, where they're like, no, I think we just want masculine men who tell us to shut up half the time because we're being overly emotional. And it's like, that might sound counterintuitive to you. You might be like, wait, what? What are you talking about? Women don't want. It's like a lot of them do. Yeah, a lot of them do. And they totally and completely lie about it publicly. Just totally lie about it. So when I'm talking about. And switching trends is just being like, well, the feminism angle, right? Make that the thing that everybody hates and make this other thing the thing everybody likes. And then women will conform to that. And then when women come out and say, I'm a feminist, blah, then they'll socially shame her to death. They'll be like, no, no, no, bitch. That's not how it's good. That's how they operate. And so that's. That's a way you fix that aspect, is you fix it with supercharged propaganda. That's the way that it's always been done, by the way, with both sexes. But it's particularly effective with women. On the man side, the incentivization is really simple. The incentivization for men has always been simple. Hey, you want to be able to afford a family. Most men never could traditionally reproduce. Now they can. You can have a family. You too can have this whole family thing. If there's ever a political system, political party that just focuses on that message for men, we're going to make it so that you can actually have a family and you can support it and you're the head of it. That Whatever that political organization is, is always going to do extremely well.
- [69:01]
B
Is that kind of what Charlie Kirk was managing to do? Quite a bit, or he used to
- [69:06]
A
he to use tpusa. By the way, there's late message Charlie Kirk and then there's earlier message Charlie Kirk. Early message Charlie Kirk was fucking soy as. Okay? It was like, I'm a civic nationalist. And you know, he was, he was really weak as far as a political right winger went. It was only after the graper wars with Nick Fuentes and having all of these people come up and ask him, hey man, how does having a bunch of gays help us win the culture war? How's this big tent conservatism helping us with anything? Did he begin to move closer to the position of an actual right winger and closer to when he died? He was using much more of that messaging. The idea of really, really got to put family ahead of everything else. Right men should have the dominant place in the household. Now the left sneaks in and lies to you and they always pretend that we're going to use force for this. Oh, yeah, men are going to be the head of the household. How are you going to enforce that? You're going to come in and tell them that? No, that's never how it works. What you do is you. You influence for social norms. That's it. So it's like if a man isn't the head of the household, he thinks there's something wrong. He's like, wait, there's something going on here. That's not correct. That's how you enforce things like that, through social pressure. You don't have to use force. That's crazy. But that's always the straw man of the other side is that the right's going to come in and force you to using force, just using the same thing that the left used propaganda, which is turbocharged and incentivization.
- [70:48]
B
Well, they do use force and violence.
- [70:51]
A
Whether it comes to cultural subversion, they will use force. I agree. But they generally don't use force. They generally have much, much better ways to do it. They do it through media. They do it through cultivation of universities. That's one of their big recruiting grounds. And they do it through news stations and they do it through mass media and propaganda. That's been the tool of choice for the left.
- [71:14]
B
I want to talk to you about one of my new sponsors, which is monetary metals. Now, if you're like me, you probably spend a lot of time thinking about sound money and how to protect yourself from currency debasement. Now for some people that's bitcoin. For others it's gold. For me it is both. But here's the thing about gold. Most of it just sits in vaults doing absolutely nothing. Monetary metals is changing that. They let you earn a return on your physical gold holdings, but they pay it in gold itself, not dollars. So instead of your gold just sitting there, it can generate more gold for you. So to put it simply, if you deposit 100 ounces and earn around 4% at the end of the year, you're going to have 104 ounces of gold regardless of whatever happens to the price of gold in dollars. And in a world where fiat currencies are constantly losing value, earning a return in actual gold ounces is pretty cool. It's essentially making your gold productive. And instead of idle. Now if you hold gold and want to learn more, check them out at monetary metals.com McCormack that is monetary metals.com McCormack yeah, and that was a good thing Charlie Kirk did. Obviously we're in the uk, we don't really have an equivalent but what I always saw and admired that really stood out to me at the university campuses. He kind of made conservatism cool again. Because in the UK I don't know how much you know about our politics, but conservatism is very much ties and shirts, aristocracy, old school, kind of look like lawyers.
- [72:41]
A
And I think it's the same thing as Protestantism. Have you ever seen the Protestant uniform, like the Protestant evangelical uniform. It's basically like always a blue button up shirt with a tie. It's like I'm here to tell you about Jesus Christ, you know, and, and
- [72:55]
B
the, the young conservatives who've you know, build a bit of a profile in the uk they're all the same in a very dapper suit and tie. Yeah. You know, you talk about tents, it doesn't build a big tent with youngsters. But what, you know, little things. In these Charlie Kerr things where I was giving away the caps, you'd have the conservatives but with the backwards baseball cabinet T shirt. But they were conservative. And what, what appeared to me was a lot of those girls were looking going well I want that guy.
- [73:25]
A
They, it's not just the matter of who they sexually desire.
- [73:32]
B
No, I thought it was more than that. It seemed cool.
- [73:35]
A
It's not even just a matter of cool either. Right. It's a matter of the social trend of judgment towards in group behavior. Mass media made it cool for women to be skanks. Let's be real okay, Even sitcoms, the sitcoms I watch now, I go back and just go, were these really that subversive? And it's like, just in Seinfeld, like, how many dudes did Elaine bone? Like, she slept with a lot of guys in that show. And if you go to Friends, same thing. A lot of these people, they really normalized. Like, hey, women having a new guy every couple of weeks and sleeping with them and then talking about it afterwards. That's normal. That's cool. That's trendy. Right. That just became kind of the normal part of the social fabric. And it's like, 100 years ago, they'd have been like, what are you talking about? That's grotesque. That's grotesque. That's horrific. What do you mean?
- [74:34]
B
Sure, but 100 years previous, 100 years previous, is there a reality that this might be our world and the likes of you and I just have to accept it?
- [74:43]
A
Look, I'm not trying to take us back in time, but tradition are experiments that worked. That's what a tradition is. What the hell do you celebrate Christmas for? It's not like you came up with it. Somebody else came up with it and gave it to you. And you're like, hey, every year that I've done this, it worked. So I'm going to do it again this next year and this next year and this next year. That's what traditions become. They're experiments which work. You have your own family traditions. I'm sure I don't know what they are. Your own little, small rituals with your son, perhaps? I have mine with my daughter, for instance. I'll come in and I'll say, you know what time it is? She'll look over and she'll be like, yeah, I know what time it is. Yeah, it's time for you to get your ass kicked at Mario Kart. Those become like little teeny, tiny rituals in your own household. Right. And things like that. Why? Because every time you've run this experiment, it's worked.
- [75:39]
B
Yeah.
- [75:39]
A
And so that's what a tradition is. And so if that's the case, I'm not saying, well. Well, let's go back 100 years ago to when we didn't have computer systems and we live like the Amish. I'm just saying that there's some traditions which I can clearly see worked, and if it's the case that they're reintroduced, will likely work again.
- [75:57]
B
Is there two? Two kinds there? We. We have. We have traditions. Our house one. We have one. Every. Every Christmas, I let the kids Go under the tree and just pick one present on Christmas Eve and they can have it that day. They don't have to wait for Christmas Day. And that's it. And they love it.
- [76:09]
A
We do the same thing.
- [76:10]
B
All right, great. And they love it because they're looking at those presents and they want them.
- [76:14]
A
Yeah, well. And you're teasing them. You're teasing, like, in a way, aren't you, actually, when you do that, kind of being a jerk. And that's what makes it fun.
- [76:21]
B
Well, I'm pissing them on.
- [76:22]
A
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You're being a jerk. Right.
- [76:24]
B
And so my tradition, I'm. Yeah, but. But that's a tradition that has a. An instant kind of reward in front of them. But some traditions, the reward is, like, delayed. Like the reward. The reward of, you know, stable marriage and parenting. It's something maybe you don't even have the kind of mental reason to realize at 20 how good that is, you know, because you're comparing a guy at home with two kids with the guy who's going out to the bar.
- [76:53]
A
What if it was just, like, ingrained into the very fabric of the social cohesion?
- [76:57]
B
Is that how some traditions die? Some traditions die because the gratification is so delayed that. Yeah. That people don't wait for it. They can't wait for it. They don't realize.
- [77:07]
A
I'm not sure any of these traditions have died. Exactly.
- [77:10]
B
Do you know what I mean?
- [77:11]
A
But, like, I think new traditions. New traditions are made, right. That become normalized in those. Those normalized kind of like, set behaviors. We're calling them traditions. Right. I'm not sure in this case, I would. I would use that word of tradition specifically for this, but something akin to that. Just the normalization of social behaviors. If you normalize social behaviors over a single generation, you're screwed. They're going to normalize it for the next generation, and then the next generation and the next generation. That's how subversion works. It's like, subvert it the opposite way. It works the same exact way. The idea, for instance, in the United States, I'll give you a tradition that I grew up with was the Pledge of Allegiance. You see? Said it every morning right now. We didn't even think about it. It's like, oh, the bell rings. Please stand for the pledge. We all got up, right? Hand over the heart, pledged our allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. Right? That's what we did every morning without fail, Monday through Friday. And the teacher did, too. The teacher. The principal did the Principal would often be on the intercom saying, the pledge,
- [78:21]
B
is this not a thing anymore?
- [78:23]
A
Done everywhere, Basically. I haven't seen it. I haven't seen it in years now. Maybe they do so in some places. But I think that they did away with it because the idea was like, you can't tell us that we have to pledge our allegiance to a flag. You know what I mean? This type of thing. But that tradition itself was so ingrained, I never even thought about it. Right. But it certainly helped with the idea that I still have to this day, of the undercurrent of patriotism. That's how effective it is. That even if I'm really pissed off at my government, think that they're doing up shit with wars and this and that, I'm like, well, I still can't quite get past this. And I even know it's indoctrination. I know thousand percent that that was an indoctrination and still kind of just okay with it. Like, yeah, it was, but it was pretty useful.
- [79:18]
B
Have you diagnosed where the subversion came from and why?
- [79:21]
A
Oh, man. Well, it's multifaceted.
- [79:24]
B
Yeah.
- [79:25]
A
So ideologies, bad ideologies lead to worse ideologies, and then worse ideologies lead to cataclysmic ideologies. There's a coalition of bad things in the United States that don't necessarily have anything to do with each other, but then became tied in with each other. One would be the idea of. And this was something which basically began with the country Protestant destruction of theology really set a lot of the path. Like the cults in the 1800s, the large Protestant cults who had. They had sex cults and bizarre views on sex and puritanicalism and all sorts of different things. Those created spiritual movements and all sorts of other factions which began to get heavily into various Enlightenment philosophies. And that helped to pervert the social fabric quite a bit.
- [80:26]
B
Is that when you had the separation of church and state?
- [80:28]
A
Well, that's even before this.
- [80:30]
B
Even before that, yeah.
- [80:34]
A
But the separation of church and state, the secular aspect of it in the First Amendment, that's fine. It was always supposed to go to the states. The states all had religions. Even after the ratification of the Constitution, all the states had their own religion, basically. I think only two didn't. But it's the graduation of Protestant ideals. They fracture into different Jesus camps with different interpretations. Biblically, they don't adhere to a single tradition. That was the great strength of Catholicism and Orthodoxy is that there's an intact tradition to appeal to. If you stray away from that, you're exercised from the body, right? You need to get away from the body. You're no longer part of the church, which is the body. Protestants just fractured and made a new body, right? That's what they do. There's no right way to do this. After all, you say Jesus loved me and that's it. So you ended up with all sorts of enlightenment cults, many of which were responsible for a lot of the roots of feminism. Then you had the ideal of communism as well. And the first thing communism did, of course, was destroy the traditional church. It's a very, very first thing they did. When Bolsheviks went through and slaughtered Tsar Nicholas, who was an Orthodox, by the way, he's an Orthodox saint now. They sainted him. They butchered the Orthodox Christians there. The Russians just butchered him. And that was a very traditional church, right? But why? It's because the idea there was, if there's a community inside of communism that doesn't adhere to communism, we have a problem. And what did I say? The great strength of the church is community. And so communism is right in the name, right? Communalism. And that doesn't work unless the entire nation is practicing communalism under that view. So if there's micro communalism going on that people adhere to more than the, the state, that needs to be done away with. Now, a lot of these Bolsheviks, right, and Jewish kabbalists and various things like this, who had their own perverse ideologies, brought them into the United states in the 19th and 20th centuries. And that also created the perfect mesh with these various Protestant sects. And when they mash all these ideologies together, you end up coming up with all sorts of various bizarre ideologies that you don't even think about, like humanism, secular humanism, and the ideals of, you know, hedonism as a proper order and function of things, right? To just kind of destroy everything in their path for a new, new forms of idealism, which are all based around essentially one fundamental concept, which is my rights. I have a right to do X, Y, Z, B, right, but no duties. So the Christian paradigm doesn't focus on rights. It thinks of rights as being tangential to dignity. We, they Christians, always focus things on human dignity in the image of Christ, right? What's undignified? What happened to Christ? That's undignified, right? How do you treat people with dignity? Well, here's how you do that, right? But when that's supplanted for rights, I have a right to This, I have a right to that. There's no entailment of duty which comes with those rights, but there is an entailment of duty which comes with Christian ethics for dignity. So I have a duty to treat you as I would want to be treated. Right. I have a duty to do that. Under my ethical system, I have a duty to not murder you. I have a duty to not do this so you can entail a right that way. If it's the case that I have a duty not to murder you, then don't you have a right not to be murdered? Perhaps under my view, yes, I would argue that a bit. But perhaps under my view, yes, but under the secular view, no. Under the agnostic atheist view, no. Under the moral anti realist view, no, there's no, there's no entailment of a duty or a right. So that's where a lot of this collapsed.
- [84:57]
B
Was 200 year old problem.
- [85:00]
A
Well, it was actually even, yes, it's an enlightenment principle problem. And built right into the flaw of this is democracy. The democratic social order itself is flawed from its, its foundation because democracy seems to always expand, it's ever expansive. They always want to include more people into in the process. And by doing that you actually cheapen the process. And so we've all become cogs in the machine of the American political machine. That's why so many people are involved. Right. Because you, you have to necessarily, if you universalize suffrage, create voting blocks for interests.
- [85:44]
B
Sure.
- [85:45]
A
You're part of interest groups. I'm sure, yeah. Your interest groups could be economic reforms, that could be this, it could be that. But you don't have any power alone. So you have to get together with other people in order to create a block so that you have some sort of power that necessarily tribalizes people. And that's where tribalism here, political tribalism, comes from. That comes from the ideas of these various voting blocs that necessarily have to get together, otherwise they have no actual power. And so it becomes an us versus them game. And the tribalism is brutal and it's bad. It caused a civil war, in fact, I mean, it's caused all sorts of mass conflict. And the more you universalize suffrage, the more you're going to end up with more and more tribalism. And now the tribalisms even moved between sexes. Women and men don't vote the same, very different interests.
- [86:39]
B
Yeah.
- [86:40]
A
And because of that, women and men are often competing against each other in the democratic cog machine. They create blocks against each other. Women create blocks to vote for Abortions and men create blocks to stop them. Like, that's a bad system. It's a really bad system. And the way that we organize societies, it's very poor and we don't organize. How you should organize a society is pretty easy, actually. You look at men and you look at women and you say, what can you do that you can't? This. Then we're going to prioritize for that. It's pretty easy. What can you do that you can't? I can have babies. Oh, can you have babies? No. Okay, great. Well, then we're going to prioritize society around that thing that you can do. What about you? What can you do that they can't? I can lift heavy shit. Right. I'm very resistant to heat. I'm very resistant to cold. Right. I could be a soldier. I can be, you know, I can do many of these amazing things that they can't do. Right. At least generally they can't do. Okay, great. Then we'll organize society around that too. So now we're going to organize society around that, like we used to organize. Yes, exactly. Isn't that amazing? So now we're going to organize society based around the fact that you can have the children and you can't. Mind blowing.
- [87:58]
B
But do you think we can get back to that?
- [88:00]
A
Of course. In fact, it's so simple. When you explain this to people, it's like a light bulb goes off. They're like, yeah, actually, that, that is retarded. Why wouldn't we organize society around that? And it's like, I don't know. It's really retarded though, because like, they're the only ones who can have the kids. Why do you want them to go to college during the years they need to have the kids? That's literally retarded. Why would you ever organize society like that? Why?
- [88:25]
B
I tried to make the argument recently with a female friend of mine that women shouldn't vote. Just out of interest, just as a challenge. And the point I made her is, I said she joined a group of four lads who were in the pub having a conversation. And I made the point. I said, oh, the conversation changes when you get here. She was like, why? I was like, look, when we all sit here, we think about big stuff. We talk about the world, the economy, structure of society. We're like, with their. Outside of sports with the big, big stuff. Do you and your girlfriends ever sit down and talk about this stuff? She's like, no, we never do. We talk about how your kids are you know, how's the job going?
- [89:05]
A
And then they talk shit about everybody.
- [89:06]
B
Yeah, but it's more top level. And I was like, do you not think, therefore, that influences what you vote on? You might be voting for the wrong things.
- [89:15]
A
Right.
- [89:17]
B
There was an agreement, but no willingness to sacrifice their vote. So I said, then I said, well, how about this? How about you'd have a scenario where you don't get a vote in the elections, but say, I wouldn't get a vote in the house. At home, of course I would. But generally speaking, you know, I come home from work, you decide how the house operates, you know, we stop work, then we have to intervene. This is what the kids do. Oh, yeah, I don't mind that.
- [89:45]
A
Right.
- [89:45]
B
So I found an in.
- [89:47]
A
Yeah, the. The idea, relationally, the way that you actually package that is the. I would do it the opposite way. Just say, look, what if it was the case that society actually honored you, that men actually did put their jackets on the ground for the puddle when you're walking across the street, that men actually did give the honorific to you, and that's how you were treated. You were actually treated with an elevated social status, but you also got the out of the way, right? You got the out of the way. Any politics became the dominion of men, okay? But the honor portion, you get to have that. You get to have like that elevated position, the prestige, the. The additional thing that men don't give a about anyway. They don't care about that. Would you take that deal? A lot of women are a lot less resistant to that deal. Well, I mean, if society is going to actually kind of kiss my ass a little bit, they're going to kind of elevate. When I walk into a room, the men will stand up and say, ma'. Am. Now that suddenly sounds like maybe a little bit more appealing. It's like, do you really need to be a cog in the wheel here? Is that really necessary? Or would you rather have that elevated social status? Because if you want to stay in the political machine, the political wheel, especially for egalitarianism, there's no reason for me to treat you any differently than a man. Zero. And that sucks, doesn't it, when men treat you like men. Because men treat each other like shit, right? That's part of what. What builds camaraderie with us. That's part of why we can actually be friends is because of how fucking horrible we are to each other. Except when it counts, right? Except when it counts. I'm sure that you and your mates Talk mad to each other, dude.
- [91:35]
B
And. And something bad happens to them and we're laughing in their face. But. But when the serious. Like there's bad and serious.
- [91:43]
A
Yep. When the serious thing comes at your house.
- [91:45]
B
Let's go. Let's get a beer. How can I help you?
- [91:47]
A
Yep. Oh, man. Ah, sucks you lost your job. Look, man, me and the guys got together, we're gonna help you get through the next couple of months. Oh, man, that's great. But you're also stupid. You know what I mean? Like, that is part of how we build resistances to the world is through that we have to constantly. That's us shit testing each other. Right? And it's funny for us. It's fun and funny and hilarious.
- [92:11]
B
There is that flip, isn't it? Like if you. Your friend can't turn up with like a new shirt, a new sweater or whatever, he might look all right. But you've just hammer them, you kill them. You look terrible. Where'd you buy that? A girl can turn up and look terrible and they're like, oh my God, you look amazing. Yeah, there's complete reverse psychology.
- [92:29]
A
Yeah, well, there's. And again, a lot of it is social lying because then that woman leaves the room and they're like, can you see what she's wearing?
- [92:36]
B
Right.
- [92:37]
A
A lot of that's just like social lying. But. But I guess, I guess back to the point is the, the kind of like elevation in prestige. That is a thing you can bribe women with, get out of the political machine, right. And then you get the elevated status. That can't be. Now, the way that I'm discussing this with you, right. That likely wouldn't work. To present it as an either or option. You propagate it through propaganda, right? And once that becomes more of the normal status, people will defend it anyway. They'll defend it on their own. They'll come to the same exact conclusion. Just like the anti suffragettes did, where they say, actually we kind of like the position of being moral authorities in society and matrons that men and women come to when they're having emotional conundrums and we make decisions that are very important in society in those regards. Why would we want to be political cogs? That's for the men.
- [93:38]
B
I can think of few women, though, who will listen to this conversation we're having. Go, yeah, like, I completely agree with it. Of course, two dudes have said, yeah, yeah, they would.
- [93:45]
A
Well, that's. Things are.
- [93:48]
B
How far we've changed.
- [93:49]
A
Yeah, things are shifting. We've been my Side of the camp and the crucible, my channel and the community, this and that. We've helped with that change, We've helped with that mindset shift. Not much, but at least a little tiny bit. And that's enough for me.
- [94:06]
B
By the way, were you always like this? Like you said, you come in, you throw your balls on the table and say, have you always been this person or have you developed this?
- [94:14]
A
I think that that's in line with how I've always been most of my life. I just, I don't think it was. It was always necessary though, you know? Yeah, it wasn't always necessary. Like, you didn't have to do that stuff. It wasn't, it wasn't really. I mean, sometimes you did, you know. But people were way better when I was growing up at conflict resolution because they had to deal with each other. They didn't deal with a smartphone and texts and emails all the time. I mean, I'm pre Internet.
- [94:45]
B
I'm pre Internet.
- [94:45]
A
Yeah, I'm pre Internet. I remember when AOL came out and I was like, what is this weird shit? People had better social skills. I mean, way better social.
- [94:55]
B
We had to turn up on time for stuff.
- [94:57]
A
Well, I wasn't just turning up on.
- [94:58]
B
But there was an order of things. There was an order. This, these, these devices break the order.
- [95:04]
A
Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I mean, I guess a good example of that, even what you're saying there is like if you got together with somebody and you were talking or this or that, and you'd be like, hey man, you want to come over to my house this Thursday at Blah. Yeah, sure. Like, there wasn't much in the way of text follow ups because there wasn't any text follow ups. Right. You have to actually call them expectations. Like, well, it's Thursday, I'm going to show up. You're right. That does make a lot of sense. But it's also the, the idea, I think of being able to sit down in front of somebody and the social cues that people get very upset about that nobody got upset about. Like, for instance, sitting at a table with somebody and being like, oh, come on, man, you're full of shit. Right? And the other guy kind of like laughs like a little sheepish. Just kind of last, duh, you know, like you have the back and forth and this kind of thing. It didn't become like a big explosive thing, you know what I mean? Where it's like, now we're engaging in life ruination and trying to destroy you in every way capacity possible. For this small slight, it just didn't operate that way because the social skills were better. Now just based on a perceived slight, people try to ruin your fucking life and they'll spend years doing it and it's like, how does that help anything ever? And by the way, 99% of the conflict could probably be eliminated by just talking to the person. These social skills are just, they're gone.
- [96:29]
B
Can I tell you my Tinder thesis?
- [96:31]
A
Sure.
- [96:35]
B
So back, you know, pre Internet or when first had mobile phones or brick phones, didn't have any apps and stuff. Like you as a dude, you just want to meet a girl and hopefully one day you get laid. It's like you had a goal, you wanted to meet a girl and hopefully and. But it was such a rare opportunity that if you chat to a girl in a bar, she maybe talk to you, you, you take a number, maybe give her a call, have that first 45 minute call, then you go and have dinner and maybe eventually she'll kiss you and then maybe at some point she has sex with you and then you just kind of stuck around because you didn't know it ever come about, come again. And I think women had control at that point and that was a good thing. Like women were the gatekeepers because it's kind of like nerve wracking to go up into a bar and talk to a girl. If you see a hot girl in a supermarket, it's kind of, it's a nerve wracking experience.
- [97:22]
A
Sure.
- [97:22]
B
However cool you are, it's a nerve wracking experience. I think we flipped it with Tinder because we took away the kind of, the challenge. You just swipe, swipe. Oh, I've got, I've got a match. Like imagine you went into a bar and there was a little green like tick above every girl or talk to you, you just go and talk to them. But there wasn't. So it was a challenge. And then we got the apps, you just swipe, swipe, swipe. You meet a girl, you got 10 likes, you got 10 matches, you go on a date, you've got nine matches you can talk to later. So we flipped it and we gave the power to the men. And I think that's the one power where we've been a bit shit with. And so I think, you know, when I meet these girls that I know who are like in their mid to late 30s and want to have children, they've left it too late and they're all on the apps. I think you should collectively they should all come off the apps.
- [98:09]
A
I think it gives women more power.
- [98:11]
B
I think it's a lot less.
- [98:12]
A
Well, let me. I'll give you a.
- [98:14]
B
Depends on the power. The power to go and get laid maybe, but the power to, to meet a guy and settle down. I think it's drifted away.
- [98:20]
A
Why? They can be ten times more selective. Because now they have. Well, I mean, because it works the other way. Imagine you're a woman and now you have. Your sex selection increases times 10,000. Like that. Now you can be really selective. So let me make the. I'll make the argument that I would make for this.
- [98:38]
B
Sorry. The difference I'm saying is between wanting to meet somebody and have sex. I want to meet somebody and settle down.
- [98:44]
A
Yeah, I'm saying the same thing.
- [98:45]
B
Right.
- [98:45]
A
Meeting someone who's settling down. I'm saying that it actually gives more power to the women.
- [98:49]
B
Interesting.
- [98:50]
A
And here's, here's how I would counter this. So localization, that used to be how relationships were done was through localization. The idea is like, you know, there's X amount of people around here, right?
- [99:06]
B
Yeah.
- [99:06]
A
So those are your pickings. Okay. If you're in a big city, your pickings are a little bit bigger. If you're in a small town, you know, your pickings are not so big. Okay. So it was pretty common for there to be, you know, 10, 12 suitors, maybe something like that or less, you know, two, three suitors, something like this. And that's what you chose from because it was localized, but now it's global. So you've now increased suitors by like 10,000. So these women are getting like 800 dms from men a day, even very ugly women. Right. So these women now think that they have a greater chance of landing a much more high status man than they would ever ordinarily have access to because of this. So their options drastically increase. It's actually men's options which decrease. And here's how it is true, like you say that men used to go in and you know, they'd have to go into the bar and talk to the woman and in this type of friction, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. But they had way less competition because of localization. But now with globalization, that same woman who you're talking to on Tinder has 5, 6, 700 guys who's also DMing her right alongside you. Whereas the woman in the bar only had the couple of people who would talk to her in a bar. That's much less of a competition suit for you. So I would actually say the opposite. I would Say it put way more control in women's hands and way less control of men's hands.
- [100:36]
B
I still don't know if I agree. No, no. Because I think it's. I think it's made it too easy for men to not want to settle down.
- [100:47]
A
Well, I don't know how. Because they could sleep with the skank.
- [100:51]
B
Yeah. Yeah. But maybe there is a. Maybe it's that alignment with, you know, the dropping of the kind of the birth rate in that guys feel like they have to do it less and now they've got these massive amounts of options.
- [101:06]
A
Yeah, well, the. I think. I think that you. You'll find that the men who have success on Tinder, they have success with a lot of women. And the men who don't have success on. On Tinder, which is most men, have no success with any women. Which would mean that there's a percentage of men who sleep with a lot of women and the vast majority of them who sleep with no women from.
- [101:32]
B
So there's a big void.
- [101:34]
A
Yeah. So you end up with. And red pill. Content creators discuss this all the time and they're kind of right. The data bears it out that if you're like six foot three and you're rich and you're in great shape and you're young, you're probably going to get a lot of hot women. You're probably just going to get a lot of women, period. But if it's the case that you're on a dating app. Okay, well, all the women are scrolling through all these men, Right. Isn't it interesting? They all stop on the same guy. Well, now they're all competing for this one guy. That's true. For sexual attention. But all these other men are competing for their attention, for these women's attention. They just. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. Whereas those same men, I think, would have had a better shot approaching them as a waitress because their intersexual competition's gone.
- [102:26]
B
But hold on, haven't you just made my argument then? If they're all competing for the same guy, it's a lot harder for them to find the guy who's going to settle down because there's a large number of them just competing for that one. And there's all these other guys not finding.
- [102:40]
A
No, because the, the options through localization for settling down were basically settled. You're going to pick the best of this limited pool if you give them globalized access now, right? Yes, it's true that they'll all go after the same dude. 100%, because now they have access to that. But that actually gives them control because now they can say, this is the type of guy that I want, I'm going to go for him. Because there's no limited access.
- [103:11]
B
And they'll leverage down until they find the right one, because they can't all. If there's like.
- [103:16]
A
You mean settle. Yeah, yeah, they'll settle eventually, sure. But, you know, they're not settling for who they wanted. You know what I mean? They're not settling for who they wanted, but they never really did. But localization at least gave you a good shot, right? So I don't mean you specifically. Right. But take an ugly guy like me. If it's the case that, you know, I'm in a localized area and I go into, like a bar or something, and, you know, this is pre Internet, you know, like pre Internet. Let's say the waitress gets hit on by, I don't know, five regulars or something like this. It's not that many different people to choose from here. You know what I mean? I don't really have to do that much to stand out too much. But what if. What if she has, you know, 10,000 guys approaching her or 500 guys approaching her or some. Some days she has 200 men approaching her. Now I have to do a lot to kind of stand out, right? So I'm not really sure that it didn't do anything or it didn't help women get control of the situation because it sure seems like they have complete and total dominant control. And I don't think. I don't think it's done anything good for men, that's for sure. It's just my two cents.
- [104:36]
B
Fair. Fair.
- [104:38]
A
What do you. I mean, does that stand a reason?
- [104:41]
B
There may be, like, I don't know if the stats match up to the uk. I'm comparing it to my experience of what I've seen, which is going on. It's like, I don't feel like anyone is actually happy with the apps in the end.
- [104:50]
A
Oh, no, I agree with that. I'm just saying I understand. I understand what you're talking about when you're talking about, like, you're playing an RPG and there's like the. The exclamation point above the head. So you know it's a new quest, right? You're like, if it's the green ones, then you know that you just walk over and talk to them. So that's gonna really help you out a ton. In. In landing, it was just like, I don't think so. Because there's 5, 000 other guys who also see the green that you have to compete with. You didn't have to.
- [105:19]
B
I thought the friction was a good thing, though.
- [105:21]
A
Really? Yeah.
- [105:22]
B
I thought guys having a bit of friction, it was a good thing.
- [105:26]
A
Friction in what way?
- [105:28]
B
There's no friction. We're just swiping. It's just like, swipe, swipe, swipe.
- [105:32]
A
Oh, yeah, that's true.
- [105:33]
B
But now there was friction, like.
- [105:38]
A
You mean like a little bit of fear?
- [105:39]
B
A little bit of fear?
- [105:40]
A
Yeah. Like a little bit of fear, like you're going to get rejected.
- [105:42]
B
Yeah.
- [105:43]
A
You know, this kind of thing. And that takes the personable element out of it.
- [105:48]
B
Yeah. And like, there will be a lot of times you just wouldn't do it. You wouldn't have the balls. You'd be like, I can't do. I can't. And then there'd just be this one girl. You'd be like, I have to look at her and she's looked at me, maybe, and you take that.
- [106:03]
A
Yeah, I guess I think gives a
- [106:05]
B
bit of commitment to it.
- [106:06]
A
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if. When I go back pre Internet and I think about how people met each other, they basically met each other through work and through acquaintances.
- [106:14]
B
Yeah.
- [106:15]
A
Like, every girlfriend that I remember having, it was like a friend of mine was like, let me introduce you to, you know, Cindy or whatever. And I'd be like, oh, hi, Cindy. And then that's. That would be the icebreaker. Right. It's like you would. You'd meet him through somebody else, and then you were immediately part of, like, whatever this cohesive social group was. So it was okay then to talk to them.
- [106:38]
B
And that, by the way, that's happening with the Zoomers, because they kind of skip. They've skipped the apps, they've gone to. In that. In that. It's like Snapchat, Snapchat friends. I don't know. I've tried to use. I don't know what the fuck's going on, but I know through, like, my kids, it's acquaintances through Snapchat. So it's kind of. There's been kind of like a shift back.
- [106:57]
A
Yeah, well, I mean, that was the best. It was through work or through introduction, through friends and family. That's how everybody met. You know, it was. It was actually pretty rare when I think back on it, because you see all these pickup artists and stuff. You know what I mean? Men used to have mad game when it came to approaching women and this type of thing. And it's like, ah, no, they didn't actually. Actually in retrospect, I don't really remember seeing too many men just approach random girls and talk to them. I mean, I'm sure it happened, but that's really not how they were meeting. They were kind of like meeting through. Oh yeah, you know, I'm going to this party with my friend Dave and Dave's like, oh, this is my friend Rita, you know, and it's like that's how you met. Right? Am I wrong or isn't that kind of how it went?
- [107:42]
B
I think it's a bit of both.
- [107:43]
A
Yeah. Yeah, I think it was mostly that though. Yeah, I think it was mostly that. Like when you think back on your dating past, isn't it most of the women that you were like introduced to you through somebody? Yeah, yeah.
- [107:55]
B
Friendship groups, work groups, 100.
- [107:57]
A
It wasn't you walking over being like, hey.
- [107:59]
B
I think it was a better way.
- [108:00]
A
Like, hey, baby, I saw you across the room and I thought we should go on a date. That, that like probably didn't happen that much. Right.
- [108:06]
B
I mean, it's kind of how I met my wife. So maybe I've got like a bias. Maybe.
- [108:12]
A
But I mean, the overarching, the amount of relationships you've been in pre your wife just for dating and this and that. My assumption is like most of them were met through, you know, social groups and friends.
- [108:25]
B
You don't, you don't actually understand how unsuccessful I was.
- [108:28]
A
It was bad.
- [108:28]
B
Yeah, it's pretty bad. Maybe I'm telling a one man story here. We have been brilliant, but we've hit a conclusion. I think I could have gone for another two hours with you.
- [108:42]
A
Yeah, it was a lot of fun, man.
- [108:43]
B
Yeah.
- [108:44]
A
I really appreciated you having me on. I love having these kinds of conversations, especially with people across the pond. I feel terrible for you guys, man.
- [108:52]
B
Can you come rescue us?
- [108:54]
A
Yeah, well, I'm. I'm English and Irish.
- [108:57]
B
I'm half Irish.
- [108:58]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [108:59]
B
So do you know where, where an island. Your family?
- [109:02]
A
I don't, I don't, I don't have like deep seated roots there.
- [109:05]
B
Yeah, my father's Irish. He lives in Donegal. He stays with me six months of the year, but Irish. Have you been to Ireland?
- [109:12]
A
I have not. I haven't been to Europe at all. And I've been avoiding it, but I don't think I can avoid it.
- [109:17]
B
I mean, you shouldn't. Like, Europe is amazing, but the news and social media is only going to show you the bullshit. I mean, if you come over I could show you so much good stuff. Good restaurants, good. Sure. Good bars. We could have good whiskey, because not as good steak as you have here. Go to soccer match, football match. I mean, Barcelona is incredible.
- [109:35]
A
I got a buddy keeps telling me to go to Australia, too. I'm like, maybe I'll do both. Maybe I'll do like a European and then go to Australia and deal with that for a little while.
- [109:42]
B
But yours better, because you've got a lot more history. So the architecture is just truly incredible. And you've got incredible cities like Florence. Blow your mind.
- [109:51]
A
Well, I was thinking, my buddy of mine, Posh, he said the reason that I'm always perpetually confused and arguing with myself is because I'm English and Irish. And so one side of me is always trying to dominate the other side of me, which is probably true. So he told me to get the traditional headwear of the Irishman, which is the English boot.
- [110:18]
B
Yeah, I fully understand.
- [110:20]
A
I thought that was. I thought that that was pretty funny.
- [110:22]
B
That's brutal. I mean, what's happening in Ireland is unbelievable. You've actually got the Republicans.
- [110:28]
A
I'm ashamed of my ancestry, honestly. Machine. Like, the Irish, they were badass. They were badasses. They were awesome. And now they're like sissy, liberal, progressive weirdos.
- [110:41]
B
Yeah. But you know what? There's this really interesting fightback that's happening where you're seeing the. The Loyalists and the Republicans kind of coming together who traditionally hated each other, to go, what the are we doing to our country? But island is in a bad way.
- [110:55]
A
Yeah. It's. Why? Well, like, the legend. The legend of the Irish in the United States is like, they're more legendary here than they are in Ireland. I think there's actually more Irish people here than in Ireland.
- [111:09]
B
Irish Americans are the most Irish people you meet.
- [111:12]
A
Yeah.
- [111:12]
B
Like, they celebrate some Patrick's Day more than we do.
- [111:15]
A
Well, it's just. It's. What's funny to me is, like, the legend of the Irish in the. In the United States, like, the Fighting Irish. Everything about the Irish is like, you know, man, they're the drink. They're badass. They're the drinkers. They're the ass kickers. You know what I mean? Every cop's last name is oh, Houlihan. You know what I mean? Like, the Irish, the deep, rich history in the United States of how we view the Irish, you know? And we hated them at first because we hate everybody at first. But. But they became an integrated part of. Of U.S. culture. Right. That the Irish did. And it's like. And then to see how we, I guess in a way glorify the Irish and then to see how the Irish are actually acting, you're just like, ah, God. It just like destroyed all of the great legends that would be we in the United States made about you. And they're just like legends, legendary people, you know what I mean? And, and he just destroyed the entire view. Just wrecked it.
- [112:12]
B
It's still worth seeing though. There's parts of Ireland that are great. Galway is incredible. Like if you come.
- [112:17]
A
Do they have Irish in them?
- [112:18]
B
Yeah, look, if you, if you come to, if you come to the UK, you have to take the 30 minute flight and go to Ireland as well. It's like going to Australia and not seeing New Zealand.
- [112:28]
A
You might as well drive it.
- [112:30]
B
No, we, there's, there's a ocean between us, there's a ferry or there's a fly. It takes no time.
- [112:34]
A
Yeah, that's what I mean, the ferry.
- [112:36]
B
Yeah, yeah, but that's, that's painful because it's a long drive. That's what my dad does, he doesn't fly. So he. It's a 12 hour journey or a 30 minute flight. But you, if you're gonna make the trip to Europe, if I was going to pick places ago, I'd say you definitely go to Ireland. Go somewhere like Galway though. Get out of Dublin. London is cool. But there are other places outside of London in the UK that are worth seeing. And then you just got to do your Barcelona and your Florence and see the, see the good places. But we'd love to have you over there. I'd love to have you.
- [113:02]
A
Is it like a really long flight, those in like 15 hours there or something from here?
- [113:08]
B
I think it's 11, 10 or 10 maybe from Dallas. I've done the Dallas to 11 hours. Well, it's, it's six hours from. You've never done an 11 hour flight?
- [113:21]
A
No. Well, I've spent 11 hours flying. I mean, I mean in the same day is what I mean.
- [113:28]
B
Yeah, Yeah.
- [113:29]
A
I haven't done an 11 hour straight flight.
- [113:31]
B
No, I mean I've got used to. Been there like 100 times. So back and forth. You get used to it. Just get the red eye and sleep. It's worth it. Come on, come over. Come see us. Yeah, we want you there.
- [113:41]
A
I'll have to come check it out,
- [113:42]
B
see if they'll let you in.
- [113:43]
A
I appreciate it, man.
- [113:44]
B
No, I appreciate you appreciate everything you've done. I found you on that. I kept seeing these whatever clips and there was one particular clip where a young lady was rating herself and you were giggling in the background. I was like, who's this guy? Watched a bit more. But I've seen you, your recent success, and you deserve it, man. Congratulations.
- [114:00]
A
I appreciate that, and thank you for having me on your podcast.
- [114:02]
B
Thank you.