← The Peter McCormack Show
The Peter McCormack Show
#172 - Graham Linehan - A Civilisation Built On Lies Cannot Survive
01:39:54
Graham Linehan on fear, censorship, ideological conformity, and the collapse of truth in modern society.
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- [00:00]
Graham Linehan
I was arrested and, like, no one called me to see how I was.
- [00:05]
Podcast Host
Nobody.
- [00:05]
Graham Linehan
No. I lost my ability to make a living, and none of these people cared. And they all joined in with it and they sped up the process. Every single person I worked with thinks I'm a bigot. They never express it out loud because there's no argument for these things. They're insane positions. Should men be in women's prisons? Should men be in women's sports? Should children be sterilized and mutilated? This is purely socially engineered. Keir Starmer left the field of battle. It's ordinary people who have to fight his culture war all day, every day.
- [00:39]
Podcast Host
I'm sure I'm on the good side. I'm pretty sure I am. How do we shift this?
- [00:45]
Graham Linehan
Always tell the truth. It's easier to remember.
- [00:53]
Podcast Host
Graham, it was great to meet you. Great to have dinner with you last night and get to know you a bit better. I've been following your story. It's wild what's gone on for you, following you as a campaigner for women's rights. But I didn't fully understand all the costs that you've paid with these principles you've taken and the isolation that you went through with it. Can you tell me about that?
- [01:18]
Graham Linehan
Well, in the. In the immediate weeks after, like, it became sort of a quote, unquote official that I was canceled. You know, that was a very isolating time. And I was kind of waiting for all the people who I'd been friends with and supported all through the years to do what I had often done for them and step up and say, no, hang on a sec. He's. He's not saying anything strange. Of course women need single sex spaces. Of course women need sports. Of course children shouldn't be mutilated in gender clinics. And instead I had people kind of who I'd known for 25 years sometimes publicly criticizing me, and that continues to this day, like Arlo Hanlon, who played Dougal in Father Ted, Amelia Bulmore, who was in my sketch show Big Train, and Bill Bailey, who is in black books. All three have decided to add to the. The. The image that I'm a bigot because I don't want men in women's spaces. And that that loneliness started quite quickly when I realized no one was coming to help. You know, I. I genuinely thought once I break the. And this is, you know, this is main hero, main, main character syndrome, but I genuinely thought that once I broke the taboo, people would rush in and go, yeah, it's Right. And we'd get, what's it called, a preference cascade. Yeah. And people would be like, yeah, of course, women need fair sports. What's the, what's going on? And so, you know, then I wrote my book in which I explained the whole argument and explained that, you know, my family had been doxed. My, my, my. I'd been visited by the police multiple times. I'd been, I've never been out of lit since I started this because a trans identified nut job keeps suing me. And, and I thought, well, you know, now I've explained it, now people will see. And of course, you know, I mean, I completely understand not wanting to read other people's books. I don't like reading other people's books. But you would think that Arlo Hanlon, who I had made famous almost single handedly, you know, me and author, sorry, me and Arthur made him famous. But it was like after all that time he couldn't even be bothered to read the book and see what my points are. Because when I spoke to him on the phone, he had no idea. I said to him, he said to, I just don't agree with you, Graham. People always say that. I just don't agree with you. And I'm like, what do you not agree with? And he says, well, and I said, hang on a sec. So you think men should be in women's prisons and things like that and women's sports? And he goes, oh, I don't know as much about it as you do, so why are you fucking throwing me under the bus to journalists? You know, and they're all like that, they. And the thing that kind of gets me about it is I don't know whether it's protective stupidity or genuine stupidity that they don't understand. Someone like Amelia Bulmar, who's a woman, you know, she doesn't understand why women need fair sports. Like, is that her? Is that for real or is she literally pretending to be stupid to protect her career? And I think with some of these people it's the latter. You know, they're just, oh no, I don't know what's going. You know, we've had the Finnish study proving that puberty blockers are, and cross sex hormones are actually worse for mental health outcomes. We've had Sal Grover in Australia trying to open a women only app and having her life more or less destroyed. She's had 10 years of her life spent fighting this, this guy who's trying to stop her from, who's trying to get on her app. You know, countless stories of women losing their jobs, of women being thrown in prison, and still these. These actors, they can't. They can't look into it, you know, and again, I think they don't want to. They don't want to. I think it's protective. I think they're protecting themselves. They don't want what happened to me to happen to them. But. And I totally understand that. But what I don't understand is going the extra mile and deciding to stick a knife in me when my only problem is the way I'm being perceived. I have not done anything wrong. Sure, my tone has gotten a little bit more angry because I lost my family, I lost my career, because trans activists did all this to me. And people like Ardo, Amelia Bulmore, and Bill Bailey not only looked the other way and just pretend, you know, just. Just didn't even phone to ask how I was doing, but they joined in, you know, So I. It's. It's. It's an incredible situation to be in where all the people who are such important parts of your life one by one, betray you, you know, and they say, oh, it's actually, you know, that's what Bill Bailey is saying when. When. When he. When he says he's baffled by my. By my activism. All three used the same phrase, by the way. They said they were baffled. Yeah, because they can't open a newspaper. But I. I lost my ability to make a living, and none of these people cared. And they all joined in with it and they sped up the process, you know, so I'm. I'm, of course, bitter about that. But re. Recently I've turned a corner where my bitterness is sort of. I think I've just been through it, and I'm out the other end now. And I just think it's just humanity, you know, very imperfect, silly people look at. Try thinking they're looking after their families, when in fact they're. They're. You know, a lot of these people have daughters, and they. I think they are betraying their daughters terribly. But so, you know, I just think it is what it is. And now I have to just kind of navigate this new reality where every single person I worked with thinks I'm a bigot.
- [07:19]
Podcast Host
You know, is this new reality of prison or is it liberation for you?
- [07:24]
Graham Linehan
It was a mix of both. I mean, it was obviously very traumatic losing my marriage. But since, you know, since I. Well, certainly since I came over to the States, I've just felt a lot lighter on my feet. I don't Feel like I'm going to get arrested anymore, which was a constant worry in the uk. I don't feel like I can get as easily sued, which was another problem in the uk. So, yeah, I've been able to sort of devote myself more to writing. I'm coming up with streams of ideas. I find AI is the most revolutionary thing for a writer in the sense that, you know, you can use it to brainstorm and actually present quite a good industry standard pitch document, or do you know what I mean, to people? So it's the same way. I feel the same way about the AI as I did when I found out there was a script writing software called Final Draft. And I was like, you can do it. Because we were pressing the space bar to get the thing. The middle of the page.
- [08:33]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [08:34]
Graham Linehan
Writing the character's name and then return and then space, space, space, space to get the next line in the middle. It was such a pain in the ass. Or, or, or it. Or we had it. Or we had the name on the left and the dialogue right beside it, which just didn't look good. So then Final Draft came along and I was like, you can get this. You can actually get the computer to do all this, you know, and. And suddenly our writing just sped up like crazy. And the thing about AI is I think that people are looking at it the wrong way. They think it's a competitor, but it's not. It's a collaborator, it's a tool. It's like, now, just casually, I just do political cartoons. I just describe what I want and I put them out there. And people might say, oh, you're taking money away from cartoonists? Well, not really. What am I going to do? Phone a cartoonist and give them 500 quid to draw a cartoon for me? You know, in some ways it's bad because I know that kind of advancement destroyed music, Right. Because suddenly physical copies meant that music sort of went away as a cultural force. And. And yes, I think there's similar things could happen here. We could be. We could. We could end up drowning in a sea of slop. But I also think there's a Michelangelo and a da Vinci and a, you know, Radiohead out there who are going to use these tools. And they're not just going to create one masterpiece, they're going to create several, you know, because you just. It's like. It's like giving your own talents a superpower. So anyway.
- [10:05]
Podcast Host
Yeah. So do you feel like you're. You've essentially lived two lives now?
- [10:10]
Graham Linehan
Yes. Yes. There's definitely two parts of my life. One is the comedy writing part, which I, I liked a lot. And I like the company of comedy writers and comedians and so on. And now is the complete opposite. I don't know anyone in the media. I. But I do know people like therapists and policemen and a lot of lawyers. You know, I know, I know d transitioners. I know the parents of d transitioners. I know people whose stories will really break your heart, you know, And. And as a result, I just feel it could not have helped but deepen my abilities as a writer if the,
- [10:55]
Podcast Host
the whole trans thing, it's kind of weird. It felt like it just came out of nowhere.
- [10:59]
Graham Linehan
It did come out of nowhere.
- [11:00]
Podcast Host
This explosion of trans.
- [11:02]
Graham Linehan
Yes.
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Podcast Host
2015 and this just sudden new reality that here you go, this is the world we now live in.
- [11:09]
Graham Linehan
In.
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Podcast Host
And there are men who are winning cycling races and yes, swimming races and competing in women's sports. And we had to look at it because I told you, I own a football team. We had a women's sign. And I actually looked at the rules previously to. When the FA changed the guidance. It was like one test a year. Somebody had to do. But there was nothing in there with regards to the advantages that exist or the danger.
- [11:33]
Graham Linehan
Sure.
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Podcast Host
And I just felt like it just came out nowhere.
- [11:36]
Graham Linehan
Came out of nowhere. And also like, I mean, you'd look at something like rugby in France. Okay. You've had male rugby players who died because of clashes on the rugby field. And you're trying to put men in women's rugby. And they did, they have, they put. There's a guy in the. In. In Australia, Hannah Mounsey.
- [11:56]
Podcast Host
Hannah, the big blonde?
- [11:58]
Graham Linehan
Yeah. He looks like. He looks like Big Bird. You know, he's just a giant. A giant. Sorry, Big Bird's the wrong reference, but a muscular giant. He's playing Australian Rules football with women. You know, you know how fucking dangerous Australian rules football is. So like. And also at the same time, everyone just suddenly forgot the reason female only sports existed, which is for their safety and fairness, you know, and, and, and when you say it just came out of nowhere, there's a, there's, there's a couple of things. Like it was percolating for years amongst crazy American academics and people like Judith Butler. And then it was, you know, part of the whole woke critical race theory push. But I think the thing that really supercharged it was when Tumblr banned porn. Because when Tumblr banned porn, Tumblr was basically where a lot of these concepts were developed. You know, right. It was like a lab. And when Tumblr banned porn, all these creepy incels left Tumblr and came to Twitter. And that's when it really exploded. That's when the policing began, when the pylons began, when the cancellations began. I think 2015 was big year. So your impression that it came out of nowhere and now. And of course, what trans activists do is they retroactively put Pete. Trans figures in history. Like, my favorite is Stonewall, right? Where like, I've read a history of Stonewall, really good one. David Collier, I think his name is. And he said there were a few transvestites there and they fought very viciously because. Because they had to, because that was that they were usually sex workers. I say sex workers fucking. You know, I hate those kind of euphemisms. Male prostitutes. And they were being beaten up as a result. So they were incredibly tough and violent, you know, and they did. Like, they were the most sort of vicious fighters of the. Of the Stonewall, but they didn't begin it. They weren't central to it. They were peripheral. And the person who began the Stonewall riots unforgivably is now being, you know, sort of again, retrofitted to be trans. It was Stormy delarvery, who was a proud lesbian, you know, and she was the one who. She was being muscled into the car and she turned to the crowd and she said, why don't you guys do something? And that's what kicked it off. But, but you wouldn't know that to read trans activist accounts whereby they become the general pattern of the situation, you know, and I'm friends. Another one of my friends, this guy, Fred Sargent, who was actually at the. The protests, who knew people, the people that are being talked about. And he, in the last few years of his life, he's very frail, you know, he's. He's in. He's 90 something. And in the last few years of his life, rather than relaxing, he's had to. He's constantly saying, that's not true. That didn't happen. This is how it happened. You know what I mean? And I keep reassuring him, I keep saying, we will not let this go. We will not let them rewrite history.
- [15:09]
Podcast Host
You know, how do you think about the experience of trans people now then? And how we as a kind of culture and society should deal with it? Because, I mean, you know, trans people.
- [15:20]
Graham Linehan
Yes.
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Podcast Host
And there are people out there who do feel like they're in the rod body to them. They're going through whatever experiences them There are other people who just want to dress differently. How do you. How do you feel about that?
- [15:30]
Graham Linehan
Now, first of all, you have to cut out the term trans people.
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Podcast Host
Okay?
- [15:34]
Graham Linehan
It does not. It. There's no definition. And every time I ask people what does trans people mean? They can't tell me. And I say, well, do you mean transsexuals or transvestites? Right. Because that's two very different groups. Yeah, transsexuals, for whatever reason, I think a lot of them, you know, for re. Reasons that. I know one trans person who said that as soon as they heard you could get your penis cut off, they couldn't think about anything else until they did it, you know.
- [16:04]
Podcast Host
Now, but you also just use the word trans there. So.
- [16:07]
Graham Linehan
Like how I've used the word trans. Yeah, only in the sense that it's a title that describes a bunch of people that doesn't really don't have any connection. Trans is, is the, the, the. The. You know, the reason why language is so important with this is because it's the thin end of the wedge that's gotten everything else. True. So when, when you'll notice in headlines, they, they. They never say, boys banned from women's sport. They say trans girls banned from women's sport. And a lot of people, they've done a number of surveys where they've asked people, what do you. What is a trans woman? And they'll say, oh, it's a female who. Who is trans.
- [16:41]
Podcast Host
Is that because it's a new category? Because historically, boys and men are banned from women's sports.
- [16:47]
Graham Linehan
Sorry, what do you mean?
- [16:48]
Podcast Host
Well, so historically, you know, go to the Olympics, a man can't compete.
- [16:51]
Graham Linehan
Oh, yeah, they just use language to obfuscate. Yeah, like, like with, with, like we, we had at the Olympics, we had Iman Caliph and that other competitor beating up women in the boxing ring. And, and the thing they tried there was they argued with a point that wasn't being made. They kept saying, he's not trans. And it was like, well, no one's saying he is. We're saying he's a man. You know, so trans. The whole language built around this movement is designed to obfuscate, to cause arguments, to make sure everyone's unclear. And yeah, it's. I can't remember your original question.
- [17:27]
Podcast Host
So how do you feel about it now? What do you. What do you think?
- [17:30]
Graham Linehan
Oh, yeah, well, sorry, you were asking about the trans. You know, what do trans people now do now? But like, my point is that, okay, there's a very Very small amount of people who, who have gender dysphoria. Okay. How are you supposed to tell the difference between that small deserving cohort and the larger cohort of grifters, pedophiles, prisoners taking the piss, all the other types of trans person there are. And, and, and, and that's why we can't, we shouldn't use the term because it, it's, it's an umbrella that covers so many people that it's, it's, it's useless.
- [18:09]
Podcast Host
Yeah. And am I right? I mean, you might know this better than me, but I've spoken to people and heard anecdotal evidence that the gay community have felt like their kind of cause has been hijacked by trans.
- [18:27]
Graham Linehan
Oh sure.
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Podcast Host
And it's been negative.
- [18:28]
Graham Linehan
Oh, it's, it's been a disaster for the gay community. The, the trans, I think trans is the biggest crisis to affect the gay community since aids. You know, like, like it's a little bit too simplistic to say that every trans identified boy is gay and will grow up to be gay. That's a little bit simplistic. There's all sorts of reasons why young boys assume a trans identity. But, but, but, but is, I think the majority of kids, or just by a hair, who do turn out to be gay. So while you're, well, what's happening to young gay men, right, is they're growing up and they're noticing with, okay, even as if you can get as progressive in a society as you want, okay, but you're still going to get homophobia. It's a pipe dream to think there's not homophobia. So kids are growing up in often very homophobic surroundings. Their friends are, you know, making fun of gay people, whatever it happens to be. So they've got all the usual problems to do with growing up, being gay and coming out and all that sort of thing. And they're now being offered this other choice, which is, no, there's nothing weird about you. You're not gay, don't worry about that. You're a woman. You know, and these gay kids often, you know, autism as well is, it really goes for kids with autism. A lot of autistic kids are trans. They grab on to things that they think will make them, they're unhappy in the way we're all unhappy because who's happy? You know, and they grab onto things that they think will help. And unfortunately, not only, you know, unfortunately, they've been told that this is the cure all to their problems. And if they only transition and everything will be fine. And transition again. Trans activists try and downplay this, but transition involves everything from putting on a wig and a dress, okay. Which I think is the vast majority of chancers out there, you know, who've just. Who've spotted a way of having some leverage over life, you know, to having your tackle removed and taking cross sex hormones and growing breasts and all the rest of it. You know, as you say, that's a huge decision and there's no coming back from it. You know, Richie Tulip, who's a trans. Who's a detransitioner. I know, he said that he found it so easy along the process to the operation that he said it was almost frictionless.
- [21:01]
Podcast Host
At what age?
- [21:03]
Graham Linehan
I think he was early 20s or something. I'm not sure. He might have been even younger, actually. I think it might have been his teens.
- [21:10]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [21:10]
Graham Linehan
But anyway, so he says he remembers lying in the hospital bed, and just as he closed his eyes, he thought to himself, this is a mistake. Oh, and when he woke up, he didn't have any genitals. You know. Now, I, I, you know, there's a lot of things. There's another thing trans activists like to do, which is they like to say. They like to make the point, oh, he was an adult when he did this or did that, you know, but why has it become, like, just assumed to be correct, that cutting off parts of your body will cure a mental problem? You know, they had it. There was a show. I often talk about this, but I'm a friend called Malcolm Clark who you should interview. He's a fascinating guy. And he used to work on Horizon, the science program. And I actually saw this episode with Arthur when we were writing Father Ted. And we thought it was the funniest thing we'd ever seen. It was two guys, I think it was two guys, one of whom felt his arm was alien and wanted to get rid of his arm. And the other felt his leg didn't belong to him, wanted to get rid of his leg. Right. So they'd never done this before. And they thought, look, they're in distress. Let's give it a go, okay? And this guy, the guy with the leg was, Was going, oh, yeah, no, it's not me. I don't like it. Just want rid of it. It's, it's, you know, I don't feel like it. It belongs to me. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And he kept. And he, and he talked about it in this way. And that was the before interview. And then they interviewed him after and me and Arthur were crying with laughter because they interviewed him and they said, so, what do you think? You know? And he said, that was a terrible mistake. I shouldn't have done that. So. So here's the thing, right? That Horizon program was the record of when they tried that approach to mental health. And it failed so badly that they never did it again. They only do it in one place. Pediatric medicine, you know.
- [23:06]
Podcast Host
But isn't it weird? You know, I'm a man, I'm a father, I have a partner. I live in a world where I know I have a role to look after them and protect them and, you know, guide them in life, and they support me in the ways they do. But we've created a world which we hopefully has equal opportunities for young girls. But we try and protect them. We try and protect their spaces and that we've moved to a place where we've had this trans movement come from nowhere. Suddenly we have men competing women's sports, entering women's spaces that we've tried to keep safe. And just for challenging it, just for questioning it, you're now seen as the crazy one. You're the bigot.
- [23:46]
Graham Linehan
Yeah, yeah.
- [23:47]
Podcast Host
Whereas really, that is the crazy, radical.
- [23:50]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [23:51]
Podcast Host
Idea. Like, if you'd have brought that up as an idea 30 years ago, people say, what the fuck you want about.
- [23:55]
Graham Linehan
Yeah, absolutely. It needed the Internet as well, to. To. To. To really bed in. But, like, you know, what's his name? Neil Hannon wrote a song about me. You know, again, another friend I've known most of my life, and. And he said I'd gone down a rabbit hole where two plus two equals five.
- [24:13]
Podcast Host
No, he's got that. He's got that the wrong way around.
- [24:15]
Graham Linehan
Yeah, he's the one who believes that men should be in women's prisons and sports. I don't believe that. So. So for some reason, they all. They not only believe this crazy thing, people like Neil, but. But they don't know they believe in it. They don't seem to know they believe in it. And part of the reason for that is they never express it out loud. You'll never hear Neil say, yes, men should be in women's sports. You'll never hear him say, yes, children should be mutilated in gender clinics. Because there's no argument for these things. They're insane positions. But what Neil can do is not mention them and pretend I'm insane as a result, you know.
- [24:55]
Podcast Host
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- [26:32]
Graham Linehan
I think you have to be personally.
- [26:34]
Podcast Host
Yeah, fine. So you, you've given, you're asking the player to give up a spot for a man.
- [26:39]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [26:40]
Podcast Host
Who, you know, he's not playing in men's football anymore. And you're also asking our players to go in for corners or maybe trying to, you know, drive past a goalkeeper who's gonna have someone who's quite big. If you think of where a corner comes in, a goalkeeper can use their weight and their size.
- [26:55]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
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Podcast Host
And so one, it's unfair, and two, it's dangerous. And you're saying, I can't even question this.
- [27:00]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [27:00]
Podcast Host
And there was kind of a culture of silence. It's a bit like politics. I noticed that there's this thing where what you think and what you say can be different things. There are people who maybe would say, want to vote for Reform and never talk about it. But the ballot boss said I can't vote for reform. I think the same existed with this.
- [27:16]
Graham Linehan
Yeah. I mean, it's crazy, isn't it, that such a basic thing could be such an unsayable, you know, and it's the only way this, this movement can get ahead is through subterfuge, through forcing thing. Have you heard of the Denton document?
- [27:30]
Podcast Host
No.
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Graham Linehan
This will bore everybody in, in the GC circles who's heard it a million times. But the Denton document was. There was a legal firm called Denton, Huge legal firm, and they did pro bono work for. I can't remember who it was, but it, it involved ilia, which is this collection of gay or LGBT plus, shall we say, organizations across Europe. Okay. So they produced a report, and the report is literally how. A guide on how to get unpopular policies passed without anyone knowing, you know, And Ireland was congratulated for never having a media discussion about self ID before it was passed in 2015, I think. You know, so. So self ID is now the law of the land in Ireland. And we've had like, we've had like men and women, women's. Limerick women's prisons. Now there's a guy, Barbie Kardashian, who's a violent, psychotic misogynist. I'm not, I'm not being pejorative.
- [28:25]
Podcast Host
I know who you mean.
- [28:25]
Graham Linehan
Yes. He's a very dangerous man. He's allowed to go into any female only space along with any woman in Ireland. Right.
- [28:34]
Podcast Host
Remind me of his offense because I don't want to say it in case it's wrong, but I think.
- [28:37]
Graham Linehan
I know he threatened to kill his mother. He tore the scalp off a social worker.
- [28:42]
Podcast Host
Yes.
- [28:42]
Graham Linehan
Uh, yeah, he's, he's, he's, he's not. He's, he's, he's like a, A sort of wears mini skirts, he wears miniskirt, wears giant breasts.
- [28:52]
Podcast Host
Yeah. For some reason, he's clearly somebody mentally ill. Yeah.
- [28:55]
Graham Linehan
Yeah. And women had to like, I heard one woman saying that they went into the courtyard to, to, to get some exercise and the men wouldn't be allowed. This was in Limerick women's prisons. The men wouldn't be allowed to walk with the women. But they were in these cells where they were for some reason just able to look at the courtyard right through lifting up and looking through it. And they would just say disgusting things to these women as they walk by. And it's like, wow. Society agreed that women in prison were of so little importance or consequence that you could put the rapists and Murderers and often the kind of people who drove them into crime. A phrase a lot of prison people say. Behind every woman in prison, there's a man, you know, and, you know, a potential rapist is escorted by men in uniforms into the prison. It's the same with the sport thing. That's how little we think of you. We're going to put this bloke in goal, you know, and he might be able to hurt you, but that's how little we think of women. You know, we're going to put you in prison and we're going to house you with rapists, which is against the Geneva Conventions during wartime, you know. So, you know, all of this stuff is like, I used to have a problem, which was. The scandal was so big when I tried to describe it to people. Stella o' Malley put it as. You get a touch of the splutters because you're trying to talk about the. The. The. The gender surgeries and then sport, you remember sport, and then something else. And. And it's like, this scandal is so big that needs. You know, I've often thought people say, oh, you should write a comedy about all this, you know, but it's. But I. But I can't, because the actual truth of it is so funny and bizarre that all you really have to do is make a documentary.
- [30:46]
Podcast Host
But. But if you made the right comedy about it, it might be the method to deliver the message. I thought Chappelle did it brilliantly when he told his trans story, whereas at the time I was like, this can't be real. And then I did the research. It was.
- [30:59]
Graham Linehan
It was real.
- [30:59]
Podcast Host
Yeah, it was real.
- [31:00]
Graham Linehan
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, Chappelle is like me with a microphone. I. I spent most of my. My life learning how to write, you know, so when I got up and get. When I get up on stage with a microphone, I'm doing so very much as an amateur. I'm learning from first principles, you know, so it's, It's. It's not so easy for me to just grab a mic and become a. A sort of stage performer, you know, I've never really. I've never really liked myself as a physical presence in the world.
- [31:32]
Podcast Host
The thing about the transition is that I know the fear people have of it still. And in some ways, you know, the people are against this movement, yourselves, the J.K. rowlings, the Long list of people who've stood, you know, made sacrifice for it. I've kind of won the argument generally, not entirely, but generally in that there has been certain changes with the International Olympic Committee and the Football association, we're seeing those changes, right?
- [31:59]
Graham Linehan
Yes.
- [32:00]
Podcast Host
So the issues being one, but at a time when it's being won, they're not taking the win and running over the line with it. And there's still a big fear, you know, even making this show, I know there's going to be some people upset. Just. Yeah, just that even the conversation's happening. I expect there would be sponsors who wouldn't want to be included in this episode. Sure. So there is still a big fear around this. Where do you think that comes from?
- [32:25]
Graham Linehan
It comes from people like Bridget Phillipson and Starmer in the UK example, not following the law. Like, you know, they're basically saying that they don't agree with the law and as a result the fight has to happen among individuals. You know, there was a video the other day of a trans identified man going into a female only toilet and people were screaming at him and the guard was there saying he's not doing anything wrong. And that's what I mean when I say because Keir Starmer left the field of battle, it's ordinary people who have to fight his culture war all day, every day. They have to fight it in courts, they have to fight it in police cells, police stations. You know, it's the lack of clarity and the avoidance and the cowardice of people like them that's, that's stopping these winds from really resounding. And the other thing is that you have something like the Finnish study that came out recently, another very solid piece of evidence that says there is no benefit to giving these kids these drugs and in fact it might be harming them. Have you seen much about it?
- [33:33]
Podcast Host
I've heard of it, but I don't have anything.
- [33:34]
Graham Linehan
Have you seen the BBC talk about it?
- [33:36]
Podcast Host
No, it's not the BBC. They don't want to touch these issues.
- [33:38]
Graham Linehan
Yeah, but they just want to touch them, but only positively, you know, so when something like the Finnish study comes along, they, they, they effectively bury it just by ignoring it, you know.
- [33:48]
Podcast Host
Well, I think it's up to, you know, conversations like this for it to happen, like yourself and because even this week the rest is propaganda. Had the American politicians. Yeah. Sarah McBride, I forget.
- [34:01]
Graham Linehan
And they were cooing over him and
- [34:03]
Podcast Host
it did make me laugh because it was three men discussing women's issues. Yeah. And, and I would say on a personal level, I, I think I, I didn't oppose it early enough for a little bit of fear.
- [34:18]
Graham Linehan
Sure.
- [34:19]
Podcast Host
I oppose it now.
- [34:20]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [34:21]
Podcast Host
I think I, I don't know if I'm, if there was a, I don't know, a trans person who came into my football club and they wanted me to refer to them as a woman, I, I may, I maybe would, but I don't know if I'm, I haven't squared that circle as. Am I doing harm with that? I know you think I am.
- [34:42]
Graham Linehan
Well, let me put it this way, right? First of all, there's no reason for you to say to another human being anything other than you and your. So, so you know when you're addressing the person. Well, yeah, but when the person leaves,
- [34:55]
Podcast Host
no, it might be like, oh, can you grab her a beer or grab him a beer?
- [34:57]
Graham Linehan
Right.
- [34:58]
Podcast Host
And I just, I haven't felt the need to do that. And again, I don't know, because it's like, if that's what they want, I don't care.
- [35:06]
Graham Linehan
There's a, there's a current controversy going on with Rowling because she used female pronouns for a man. And now there's, there's a bit of a ruckus going on. But like, my rule is in private and public are very different. I will never call a male she and her in a tweet or in an interview like this. I'll never do it. But if there's someone I know personally and yeah, they've kind of become comfortable in whatever Persona they are acquiring, I will do either. I like, you know, like, I know some people, I know some trans identified people who, if you say, if you say she, they'll go, no, no, no, I'm a man. You know what I mean?
- [35:51]
Podcast Host
Well, you know, you know how the.
- [35:53]
Graham Linehan
So it's, it's.
- [35:54]
Podcast Host
So I found that women have a, A better transition to man, visually.
- [36:02]
Graham Linehan
Yes.
- [36:03]
Podcast Host
Than men to women.
- [36:04]
Graham Linehan
Yes.
- [36:04]
Podcast Host
And it's not always the case. But the reason I bring it up that there's a, there's a, there's a fellow I know in Bedford, Right. I knew him before I knew he was trans.
- [36:13]
Graham Linehan
Yes.
- [36:13]
Podcast Host
And then I found out and I was generally holy. I didn't even know. I'm not gonna then suddenly flip to using female pronouns. And that's. So that's where I've kind of found myself.
- [36:23]
Graham Linehan
Absolutely. But I don't think the problem will last forever anyway because, like, you know, once it becomes come, becomes better known that testosterone and the reason women look more convincing than men is because testosterone wreaks more havoc on women. You know, like, you know, you remember you were like when you were a teenager.
- [36:42]
Podcast Host
Yeah. You know, in that case.
- [36:44]
Graham Linehan
Yeah. Imagine living Your, your life as a woman and then getting artificial testosterone. Put it, a lot of lesbians are becoming straight because it supercharges their sex drive and men are the only ones who will have sex with them, you know? Do you know what I mean? So, so it's like, it's like there's and, and, and also there's been more. There's been more incidences of women pedophiles, you know, and it's not just the fact that men are being called women that's leading to that. There's also. There have been like a few, not very many, but a few. And again, it's re. They, they're. They're. They cannot regulate their emotions on testosterone. They cannot sexual impulses on testosterone. It's a fatal drug to give to people. And the other thing that happens is that their hearts. They are four times more likely to die of a heart attack. They will go into early menopause. Right. So all of this to grow a beard and to be a small, unconvincing man, you know, it's not worth it. And we, and that's the thing that's not been communicated to these people. And they're being allowed to just take these drugs. It's very fashionable to do so. And they're all going to die young or they're going to get dementia because it brings on early menopause, which often leads to. Which sometimes leads to dementia. You know, these kids think they're turning into young men, but they're turning into old women. You know, it's really sad.
- [38:07]
Podcast Host
Yeah. How do you make sense of who you are now in the world in that when you were a writer, so pre this whole scandal, you knew what your job was to do. It was to write something funny, sell it, and then continue that on. That was your job.
- [38:21]
Graham Linehan
Yes.
- [38:22]
Podcast Host
I expect a very clear, easy way to define what your role in the world is and what you were doing.
- [38:27]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [38:28]
Podcast Host
How do you define what your role and goals are on the activist side? Do you even know or is it free?
- [38:34]
Graham Linehan
No, I take it by. I had some people helping me who were great. There was one woman who did a week in the War of Women. Her name was JL and she did a weekly update because there were so many news stories coming in and so many of them were scandals that I just thought, we have to be covering it on a weekly. There's too much happening, you know. So she did, for about five or six years or possibly even longer, she did a weekly thing where she rounded up in very plain Language what we called a war on women, you know, and having that was helpful and I was basically on an editor role on that and I would write the occasional piece when an idea struck me. But now I just have to attend to the website a bit more because JLO has moved on and I have to actually start making it work for myself. I can't keep up with the new. Just too much news, you know, what
- [39:29]
Podcast Host
is your role in this?
- [39:30]
Graham Linehan
So I, I usually write long form pieces. You know, I try and think of a subject that will illustrate the issue and I write a long form piece like I recently did one on the Denton's document that explains, you know, everything that laid out. So yeah, no, I just, I, I'm, I'm, I just kind of dip in where I think I've got a good idea to, to either explain something to people or to make a joke or whatever it happens to be. And the rest of the time I'm writing comedy, you know, I'm back, back to writing films and comedy, which is, which is a privilege, you know.
- [40:03]
Podcast Host
Good. How do you know when you're canceled? How do you know that moment? Is there a moment where there's like you're in the eye of the storm,
- [40:11]
Graham Linehan
you're like, oh, oh, it's a lot of tiny cuts. Oh, it's a lot of tiny. It's ringing up, ringing up a friend. I remember this friend of mine who I used to know, he was a, he was a writer, he worked on the thick of it and things like that. Ringing him up and just him not saying much on the other end of the phone, you know, and then like hanging up and never hearing from him again. You know, it's things like that, it's little things. I met these two guys on the, on the street in Dublin. I used to know a man bloking his girlfriend and there was that initial thing of the shock of meeting me and oh, hello, how are you doing? And you know, all that. And then during the conversation I could see a sneer developing on his face as he kind of remember to assume the look that is appropriate for meeting a monster like me, you know, monster. So like, so like it's, it's just loads of things like that and after a while you stop phoning people because you don't want to, you know, as soon as they, as soon as they hear who you are, you can, you can hear either, you can hear a click and they either go into, you know, they go very quiet and monosyllabic answers or you know, you get the occasional person who's all right, but that uncertainty meant I just lost touch with everybody, really.
- [41:31]
Podcast Host
Is there a flip to that in. There was, like, for example, when Chelsea said, oh, I've contacted Grand Lindenham, I was, like, blown away for two reasons. Obviously, huge Father Ted fan, loved your work. I just wanted to meet you. And then also think of you as a bit of, like, a hero for stepping forward in a way that I, you know, when I look back, go, I could. I could. I should have done more.
- [41:52]
Graham Linehan
Yeah. You know, it was confusing, though.
- [41:55]
Podcast Host
Yeah, But. But as you lose one world, you gain this other world.
- [42:00]
Graham Linehan
Sure.
- [42:01]
Podcast Host
Yeah. And is that. Is that a better world because it's people you actually trust because you're coming in in a better way?
- [42:07]
Graham Linehan
Oh, yeah. I now realize that, you know, I used to think. I used to think I was just a charming motherfucker.
- [42:14]
Podcast Host
You're very.
- [42:15]
Graham Linehan
But the truth is that I, I. I was associated with success, money, and fame. And I realized now that all my friends from that period, that's the only reason they hung out with me, you know, and so when all those things dropped, they disappeared as well.
- [42:32]
Podcast Host
So the whole, you architect a fake world.
- [42:35]
Graham Linehan
Yes. Yes, I did. And I didn't realize I was doing it. And, you know, you're comfortable in it because, you know, you're comfortable in it. You don't realize that, oh, when the time comes and the, As I always put it, the Nazis come through the door, you know, your friends, the people you thought would protect you, are the ones who go, he's in the attic. You know, and it's like. It's like when you realize that, it makes you very scared because you're suddenly thinking, so how. How far could this go? Could I be. I was arrested.
- [43:08]
Podcast Host
I know.
- [43:08]
Graham Linehan
And, like, no one called me to see how I was.
- [43:12]
Podcast Host
Nobody.
- [43:12]
Graham Linehan
No, nobody. You know? Huh.
- [43:16]
Podcast Host
I'll call you if it happens.
- [43:18]
Graham Linehan
Yeah. I must give you my number.
- [43:20]
Podcast Host
Me and my dad will come down to see you.
- [43:21]
Graham Linehan
Yeah. Yeah.
- [43:22]
Podcast Host
I just can't believe no one called you. Because in my world, the world I live in, which is, let's call it, conservative, independent podcasting, everyone was like, this is a disgrace.
- [43:34]
Graham Linehan
Yeah. Yeah, but. But you.
- [43:36]
Podcast Host
You.
- [43:36]
Graham Linehan
You guys are. Are like, your career depends on, you know, telling the truth and not being what the mainstream media are, not being avoidant. Whereas actors, I mean, you know, in one side, a lot of actors who I worked with didn't say anything in my defense. But I have to say, as long as you're not coming for me publicly, I Actually, don't. I don't mind that I, I understand it because it's a very vulnerable world. You're going into meetings and they're saying, shall we pick you to be this character? And it's very. For actors to so not know whether if they go into an audition, they're not getting it because they were nice to me, you know, so it's. I. I understand them staying out of it. The thing that I don't understand is when they talk to press and pretend to be confused over women's rights, you know?
- [44:24]
Podcast Host
Well, are they. Are they, in some kind of shameful way, leveraging you? Are they, like, stand on you and pushing you down to push themselves up?
- [44:33]
Graham Linehan
Oh, yeah, yeah. It's essential because journalists are some of the worst trans activists out there, especially entertainment journalists, you know, and they are the ones who will encourage these guys to get that. To, to get that quote, you know, and of course, none of the actual issues are ever discussed there. Everyone's just baffled why I would take this terrible stance. And. And that's the end of it.
- [44:55]
Podcast Host
Well, Bill Bailey, you can off. I mean, he, he can have his own form of Kaz. I won't watch his anymore.
- [45:00]
Graham Linehan
Well, you know, I mean. I mean, no one's more surprised than I. I thought Bill was a lovely bloke, you know?
- [45:06]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [45:07]
Graham Linehan
And I, I thought Amelia was lovely, and I thought Arlo Hanlon, you know, I would, I would have called him one of my closest friends, but none of them have any honor or, or loyalty or, or even concern for their own daughters, you know, And I find that pretty disgraceful.
- [45:24]
Podcast Host
Yeah. It just makes me wonder, what is it we're all doing then? Like, what are we all architecting fake worlds for ourselves just to protect ourselves? And, and what does that mean? Like, how will we reflect on that as we get older?
- [45:40]
Graham Linehan
I think there's a number of things that are also happening at the moment. I, I think there is a, A thing that screens have given us, which is. And, and, and connectivity have given us, which is feeling that you can cut people off from your life and it really won't affect you. And, and often that's true because you've still got your online world, you've still got your. Your, you know, the people who like you, the people you've directly met, who agree with every position you have. But if your brother doesn't like, you know, likes President Trump or something like that, then he's out of here. And I think people find that easier in a. In a connected world. I You know, one thing that people used to always say to me is, how's the wife? How's the family? And, you know, I was walking through. I was. I was walking through a train station one time, the guy said it to me, you know, and that's the last time he'll say anything to, to, in, in person, to someone. But I could tell that the reason that he initially was brave enough to do it, he just did not expect anyone any consequences.
- [46:44]
Podcast Host
Well, hold on, what was the consequence from saying that?
- [46:47]
Graham Linehan
What.
- [46:48]
Podcast Host
What was the consequence for him?
- [46:49]
Graham Linehan
All I'll say is he won't ever say it to anyone again, you know? And like, like, like, it's like he didn't realize that you can't go up to someone and insult their family.
- [46:58]
Podcast Host
Oh, he did insult it.
- [47:00]
Graham Linehan
He wasn't asking, oh, how's the family? Was a. It was a sarcastic.
- [47:03]
Podcast Host
Oh, so, so.
- [47:04]
Graham Linehan
Because, okay, because trans activists broke up my family and then, and then said, how's the family?
- [47:09]
Podcast Host
I thought you were saying he was saying it with compassion.
- [47:11]
Graham Linehan
No, no, no, no, no, not at all. He said as a joke. And you could see he was. He was totally relaxed. He just didn't think anything would come of it.
- [47:18]
Podcast Host
But it's funny because, like, in the online world, we say the crazy shit. I'm. I'm terrible at it. On Twitter, I just hammer people. But you get into the real world and it's like, you don't expect it to get transplanted, but that is transplanted into the real world.
- [47:33]
Graham Linehan
And yeah, yeah, two people did it to me and neither of them will do it again, you know, and it's like, it's. But, but, but I think that that's an extension of what we were talking about with the screens. They. They just don't really see that there's consequences to behaving like an asshole, you know?
- [47:49]
Podcast Host
I mean, I think these have got a lot, lot to answer for anyway, just generally. My. My friend said to me about a year ago, I was with him, I think I was in la. And he said, I'm going to tell you something and then tell me what you think. He said, have you seen Alien? I said, yeah. He said, you know the bit with the parasite chomps on the face?
- [48:05]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [48:05]
Podcast Host
He said, that's your mobile phone. I was like, and it's never left me.
- [48:09]
Graham Linehan
Yeah, I've got it. I've got an even. I've got. I've got a thing that I. That I say it's bit people sometimes don't catch up with me on this one. But what I think the mobile phone is closest to in our history is a horse in the Old West. Because in the Old west, if the reason they hung horse thieves was because if you stole someone's horse, it was a death sentence, Right? Because you couldn't get the incredible amounts of distance between places to survive. So it was a death sentence. So they would kill horse thieves. You know, losing your foam for me is like a bit like losing your horse. It's like you would feel completely bereft at sea, you know, you don't know even where to begin, you know, with getting your shit together, you know? And it feels to me like our phones are. Now you see it with people, where's my phone?
- [48:57]
Podcast Host
Where's my phone?
- [48:58]
Graham Linehan
You know? And once I started noticing, and I'm terrible for this too, you see people walking down the street and their phone is in their right hand. It's never in their pocket.
- [49:07]
Podcast Host
I've been weaning myself off it. So I was sat in front of the TV about. I'd say about a week ago, I started deleting apps. Just loads. I mean, I put a tweet out and it must have been like 150 apps. And one bloke said, how have you got that many apps? I said, go count yours. He's like, oh, shit. And then I delete one every single day.
- [49:24]
Graham Linehan
Yeah, good.
- [49:25]
Podcast Host
And I want to get to the point where I only have the ones I need. And when I say, need the parking app so I can park.
- [49:31]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [49:31]
Podcast Host
The British Airways app to book a flight, anything, which is a distraction app. I've got nothing to do. I'm trying and I'm weaning myself off it.
- [49:38]
Graham Linehan
What about ChatGPT? Would you keep that on? Well, yeah.
- [49:41]
Podcast Host
Interesting. But that's a tool. But if I found that, replacement became the distraction. Because what I've realized is a lot of the ones which are distractions are work kind of work ones. And so if I'm in work mode, I'm on my laptop, I'm opening and I'm working and it's closed. But it's trying to get out of that habit of. On the. Like, I. I'm trying to remember last time I watched a film without a phone. Just being distracted. I want to go back to watching a film from start to finish. I want to read books. And so, like, X is the. The final boss.
- [50:10]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [50:10]
Podcast Host
I've got to get rid of TikTok. Oh, that's gone. And Instagram went. Because I got sucked into the reels. But I've looked at the time on my phone and it's just the graphs going down. I think I'm weaning myself off it.
- [50:21]
Graham Linehan
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I mean, but, but, but, but part of my thesis about all this stuff is that we never had the discussion about what the Internet was doing to us. You know, like the guy who wrote the book, the Cuddling of the American Lie, Jonathan Hyde.
- [50:35]
Podcast Host
Yeah, yeah.
- [50:36]
Graham Linehan
He points out that female, young women's depression went, you know, so, you know, why haven't we had a discussion about that? Why is, why don't we have like a similar campaign to the anti smoking campaign saying, don't let your kid, you know, be on a phone, you know, why don't we.
- [50:57]
Podcast Host
But his book, Anxious Generation, his latest book, I think every parent should read it. I think it's a horror story for parents. When you read that book, what you find out about mobile phones. And that's in fact, I mean, if I had young kids now, they just would not have a phone.
- [51:09]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [51:10]
Podcast Host
Go through all the bullshit with them. I think that book's incredible, actually. Afterwards, really pissed my daughter off.
- [51:15]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [51:15]
Podcast Host
I wrote to their headmaster, I said, I think you should read this book. And then I think you should ban phones in school. I think they should go and pouch at the start of the day.
- [51:22]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [51:22]
Podcast Host
And if you do it, you have 100 backing from me and I think you'll get it from other parents.
- [51:27]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [51:27]
Podcast Host
He did write back to me and I actually saw him and spoke to him about. He said, well, it's challenging this and that, but explained that like lunchtime used to be play time.
- [51:34]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [51:35]
Podcast Host
And now, then it became phone time.
- [51:37]
Graham Linehan
Did you see the, the Friends video that has. It's just the titles of Friends, but they're all on phones and they're just like, they're just looking at phones. They're just doing this and it's. Then it cuts to them in the cafe and they're all just doing this, you know, and, and first of all, it's funny, but then you think, yeah, that is it. That's what we're all doing. No one's with anyone. Everyone's. Everyone's off with someone else while they're with people and you know. Yeah. I mean, you know, we sound, we sound like two old men. But like, but, but, but, but my, my central point is that because we never had the discussion about what the connectivity was doing to us, what the distraction was doing to us, what the addiction was doing to us. We never had the discussion about like, we. Because we never had the discussion about that when trans came along. It was just accepted as being just a thing that we all had to put up with. Now I was like, well, no, it's, you know, it's not. It's not like a naturally growing thing. This is purely socially engineered, you know, this is not an authentic, you know, movement. And because we'd never had the discussion about the increased connectivity and the effect that the Internet has had on us, we. We haven't had the. We. We haven't had the discussion that would lead to us being able to understand a mass delusion like trans taking over the world.
- [52:56]
Podcast Host
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- [54:07]
Graham Linehan
No, because. Because every time someone did that to me recently and they said, what? What if you're wrong about this the way you were wrong about things like Gamergate and stuff like that in the past, you know, and I said, what could I be wrong on? Should men be in women's prisons? Should men be in women's sports? Should children be sterilized and mutilated? What am I wrong on?
- [54:28]
Podcast Host
So I guess what I'm talking about is like, I'm with you on all those points, but more about, you know, you feel the need to use direct pronouns of what they actually are.
- [54:41]
Graham Linehan
Do you? Do you'll notice I don't do that for anyone who is like, I don't, like, tap people on the shoulder and say, you're a man. No, I say it when people are trying to pull a fast, you know, and, and that's when I'm direct. Because it's like, this is a scam. Yeah. Because you get a guy talking about, you know, a bloke, you know, with long hair who may or may not be a transsexual. Right. Probably isn't, because the figures are something like 95% do not get any surgery. And he's entering a conversation about women's rights and holding forth as if he's a woman. And it's like, no, no, hang on a sec, mate. You know, these people are women. You are a man trying to, like, I often describe it as like a beekeeper dressing up as a giant bee to collect honey. You know, you're a man trying to convince these women that what you're saying is feminism, right? Because you're using the word woman a lot. But when you say woman, you mean something else. So, so, so times like that, it's absolutely essential to be clear and to say, you know, stop it. This is, you're being, you're being dishonest. You know, the rest of the time, you know, I, I, I, as, as, as the cliche goes, live your life, you know, do whatever you want. You know, just, just, just don't be threatening women with losing their jobs if they don't want to play along. You know, it's that simple.
- [56:07]
Podcast Host
If you had, if you had to go back and run it again with the experience, how would you do it differently? Because there probably people out there who feel similar to you, and they're like, okay, I want to, I want to do this honestly, I want to support this. I want to get this right. But there are consequences.
- [56:22]
Graham Linehan
I, my problem was I was just so early, I was doing it before rolling, and I didn't, and because I was slightly.
- [56:31]
Podcast Host
Were you kind of on your own doing it, though?
- [56:33]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [56:33]
Podcast Host
What was the moment where you're like,
- [56:34]
Graham Linehan
apart from, sorry, no. There were lots of feminists who were already and had been fighting for years and were somewhat resentful of someone joining in and take hogging all the attention, you know? But I, I, I always tried to counteract that by platforming women and speaking to them as much as I could.
- [56:50]
Podcast Host
What was the moment that made you have to do this?
- [56:52]
Graham Linehan
Like, I went to an event and I met a guy called Keith, who I'm still friends with. He comes to all my court cases. And he said that he used to be an alcoholic and he had just come back from two week bender because his daughter was on testosterone and couldn't stop her. And because he was informed about all this, he knew that she would be at increased risk of dying early. She knew that she might destroy her sexual function or her ability to have kids or enjoy sex. He knew all this, and she still refused to back down. And now it was at the stage where the testosterone was making her, in his words, disappear in front of my eyes, you know, and as soon as I heard that, I thought everything must be done to protect people like him and his daughter, you know, because his daughter is as much a victim as he is.
- [57:42]
Podcast Host
Did you know you're walking into a fire? Did you? Like. Yeah, you know?
- [57:46]
Graham Linehan
Yeah, yeah, because like the left had. There's a famous essay by a guy called Exiting the Vampire Castle and it was about. And he eventually committed suicide. He was sort of cancelled for writing it, although a lot of people say I shouldn't draw conclusions from that. But anyway, he committed suicide and he wrote this piece where he just explained how the purity spirals and the leftist kind of discourse was, was. Was being degraded into a us versus them, you know, cancellation, all that sort of thing. And so I knew, I knew what was coming. What I didn't know, I think what happened to me was that because I wasn't going into an office daily, I didn't realize that this, this stuff was capturing all these different organizations through dei. I didn't realize that, like, the BBC was completely trans goofy. I didn't realize that, you know, certain people who worked in the Hat Trick offices were trans goofy. And because I, because, because for me, it's like you said, one second there was nothing, the next second there's this group called trans that we all have to behave a certain way around. But that for most people, I think was a much more gradual affair because DEI was coming in and telling them all these sob stories and so on and, you know, people were stuck. I remember once, this was one moment where I thought I went to. Went to do an advertising job. And the bloke who brought me through the door was a young intern type age, and he had breasts and he had a white shirt on and he had a black bra that was visible through the white shirt. Right. So. Because it's a fetish, you know, and they're trying to. But anyway, like me, I was there with these two comedy writers and they weren't making Fun of the guy went off and I thought, oh, my God, what the fuck is going on? And the other two were just completely quiet. And I was like, do people not see this? You know? And I realized that they were more used to that culture and had. And were keeping their mouths shut, whereas I just thought, this is the bus. I took my daughter, I've ever seen,
- [59:56]
Podcast Host
took my daughter to a concert. She. It was a emo punk band called Pierce the Veil. Okay, Good, decent band. Sure. There's not many people my age there, so we go to Deftones. There's a load of people my age. Yeah, there's not many. There was an incredibly high number of trans kids there, and it was completely normal.
- [60:16]
Graham Linehan
Oh, sure.
- [60:16]
Podcast Host
Yeah, it was completely normal. That was the moment I was like, okay, what am I getting wrong here? What am I missing?
- [60:22]
Graham Linehan
Well, you know, like, I think. What I think is a bit sad is, is that what this generation wanted was just to have the kind of childhood or teenage years or young person years that we all had, which was you find your tribe, you find your music, you hang out with the people who are in the same tribe, and you have a great time and maybe
- [60:48]
Podcast Host
take drugs and have sex.
- [60:48]
Graham Linehan
You take drugs, have sex. And if it's a certain, you know, depending on what time it is, you either wear a stupid oversized puffer jacket and take ecstasy or you. You paint flowers on your face and take lsd, you know, but. But this generation, because music was so severely destroyed as a cultural force, this generation didn't really have music. And previous generations, there was a very clear thing going on of goth turned into emo, and then emo basically turned into this. Dr. AZ Hakeem talks about this a lot. He says that this is just goth that's going through a change and is evolving, and it's now turned into this thing. And the reason why now the style is like faded blues and pinks and really unpleasant colors. Everyone looks like trash. You know, there's no fashion, there's no. There's no. There's no art associated with this movement. It's all very ugly. It's very leaning into your. Your negative qualities, you know, and there's no music. You know, there's no music, no particular music associated with trans. Right. Except maybe with the audio band like you're talking about. But. But basically what's happened, these kids don't have a culture. The culture has been created. Whereas before, the leaders of the culture were people like the Beatles, these days the leaders of the culture are grifters like Judith Butler.
- [62:14]
Podcast Host
So it's the culture we, we had kind of like community based culture.
- [62:18]
Graham Linehan
I was in the, that was the
- [62:19]
Podcast Host
other thing I was in the rock.
- [62:20]
Graham Linehan
Yes. Physical spaces.
- [62:22]
Podcast Host
Yeah. Skateboard culture.
- [62:23]
Graham Linehan
Yes.
- [62:24]
Podcast Host
They've really got a homogenized culture that's come from online where everybody is individual and could be what they want. Yeah. And if that's a victim, that's that as well.
- [62:33]
Graham Linehan
And there's so many other things that are kind of tied up with it. Like, for instance, a lot of, A lot of trans activists are so vicious and savage about their activism because it's their bottom line. You know, they're doing porn. You know, you get these young guys and, and they've been told all their life that sex work is work. They, they, they Transmax or whatever the current phrasing is, took their penis in between their legs and make a lot of money on things like only fans. So, so, so, I mean, it really, it's really, for me, it's worse generation time. Because, like, you know, in the past we fought the Nazis. Or you did anyway.
- [63:16]
Podcast Host
You fought us.
- [63:17]
Graham Linehan
Yeah, exactly. And then this generation is what I call wanking for coins, you know, and it's like such a fall. How, how is someone who's, whose job is, is, is masturbating on camera? How are they going to move on to having a family or something like that? And the answer is, a lot of them won't.
- [63:36]
Podcast Host
You know, this is where I have a lot of sympathy for Andrew Wilson's position. I was with him yesterday. We recorded a show and, you know, fascinating guy. Would never want to debate the guy. He's incredible. But he, he makes the, he made the argument in the trigonometry show. He said, I think Christians should be the rulers. And, you know, Constantine pushed back on him and he came back and said, well, do you want it to be us or the people who want you to be able to put your asshole on camera to make money?
- [64:05]
Graham Linehan
Yes.
- [64:05]
Podcast Host
Like, who do you want in charge if you have a choice?
- [64:07]
Graham Linehan
Yes.
- [64:08]
Podcast Host
And I was like, okay, I see your point.
- [64:09]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [64:10]
Podcast Host
You know, and I understand about freedom and liberty because I'm Freedom Guy, but at the same time it's like, what have we done? I mean, this, this is one issue trans. But I, I don't know if it's my age, Graham, but I'm just like, in every direction I look, I feel like everything's going to. Maybe that's me being stuck in the uk, because that is going to. But I look across the island, I'm half Irish. And that's going to.
- [64:35]
Graham Linehan
It's. It's Europe. I mean, really. It's Europe. Europe, for some reason, have these incredibly lax immigration rules that are without a doubt changing the demographics, you know, especially in Ireland, you know.
- [64:51]
Podcast Host
I mean. Yeah, but that immigration is one issue, but economics, like, we're just being stolen from constantly by government. We are. We've made everything unaffordable. I mean, people just cannot afford to buy homes until they're in their 30s, 40s, generally. This. The roads are covered in. Our political leaders are all useless. I mean, the entire labor front bench, I mean, I throw them in jail. They're utterly useless. That there's. Every election feels like an existential crisis. Nobody can agree on anything. We've got lunatic Zach Polanski, who looks like he's going to do very well in the next elections, really. Taxation keeps going up. The. The quality of art and culture is kind of dissipated. I just. Yeah, I don't know if this is something you go through at this age.
- [65:36]
Graham Linehan
No, it's not. It really isn't.
- [65:38]
Podcast Host
I feel like there's something deeper going on.
- [65:39]
Graham Linehan
It's like. It's like, you know, culture. Let's take culture, for example. Okay. I played. I did a gig in Holyrood. It was only my, I think, seventh gig. And. And they banned me from everywhere, you know, And I was looking through. I was. I was in Edinburgh and I was looking at all the posters, and the posters were blokes dressed up as Jesus, you know, with a cross and stuff like this. And all that was allowed because, you know, you're making fun of Christianity, so it's okay, you know, but. But that's like. It's just like a sort of mirror image of, let's say, 80s Ireland, where you couldn't say a word about the church. You know, it. It's. It's just an inversion. It's the same. And it's the same kind of people, very sheep, like, people who are going along with all this, but it's inverted, so it's not like your imagination. You've got like. Like Scottish arts are just completely ruled over by people who believe that men are women and will only give money to the queer. You know, look at, you know, penis molds or whatever, you know what I mean? That's where the money will go to. But if you have an idea that's entertaining, that's interesting, and, God forbid, written by a straight white bloke, it'll get nowhere. So, you know, I do think that. And I. And I Think that if you remove the straight white blokes from culture, you've lost a lot because there's. You've lost, like, say, the Ramones. You've lost Martin Scorsese, You've lost Shakespeare. Shakespeare. Well, maybe not Shakespeare. I know some people think he was gay, but like, but like, like. But my point is, it's that voraciousness, that creative voraciousness, that. That has got a male energy that, that. That I think has powered a lot of. A lot of art in the past. And to deny it and put a cap on it and say, no, we're not doing that for a while, it means you're gonna have a very dry time for art, which is what this is. So my point is, I don't think it's a natural aging thing. And you gotta be careful about putting yourself in that box because it allows people to dismiss you.
- [67:51]
Podcast Host
But, you know, when you feel like I'm in. People think I'm radical, I think. And I sometimes feel like I'm in the minority because I'm like. Like I hate and don't trust the government. They're constantly stealing from us. I'm against war. I. I'm. I want quite traditional, traditional values, you know, I want my kids to be able to buy a home and have kids. I miss. I mean, I've got. I think some of the creative spaces is dying. Like I used. I used to. When I used to fly transatlantic, I used to be excited. I'd get a glass of wine and I'd watch a film or two.
- [68:26]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [68:27]
Podcast Host
The times I get on a plane now, there's not a single film I want to watch because there's not much good coming out. Netflix is full of slop because it's an algorithm driven. My thesis is, I argue with my old producer on this that the last truly great album that would make a top 25 of all time was Amy Winehouse, Back in Black. I don't think there's a truly great album since then. And I'm like, what's going on? Is there like some truth to this cultural Marxism that is sweeping across?
- [68:57]
Graham Linehan
Because how do you define cultural Marxism in this case?
- [69:01]
Podcast Host
Well, in the case of the trans.
- [69:04]
Graham Linehan
Just in the question.
- [69:05]
Podcast Host
Friend, Enemy.
- [69:06]
Graham Linehan
Like, right. Yes, yes. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And it's all like Sarah Morrison, I think her name, second name is Morrison of the Belfast Film Festival. You know, I mean, here's what they did, right? They. They did what they usually do to gender critical women. They harassed her, bullied her out of her job. There's There's a current court case where they're. They're answering for that, you know. And of course, as always with these court cases, is you get these people up on a stand under oath and they make absolute fools themselves. The film critic Mark Cousins, you know, he. The fact. The things he was forced to say are genuinely very funny. But instead of learning their lesson, instead of saying, well, maybe we got this slightly wrong, on International Women's Day, they showed the Matrix because it was by two women, right? As if a woman.
- [69:53]
Podcast Host
Hold on. But they. They went weird and trans after they made the Matrix, didn't. Yes, they. I read the story of. That is fucking nuts.
- [70:03]
Graham Linehan
It's insane. And what's brilliant about the. About the Wachowski brothers is that there was a big Rolling Stone piece that was taken off the Internet once they started saying that they were vulnerable, they were a vulnerable minority, rather than two guys who liked masturbating in BDSM clubs.
- [70:22]
Podcast Host
Yeah. One to the. Yeah, he went to the beat. He had. Didn't he have, like, a mistress who was, like, torturing him?
- [70:26]
Graham Linehan
Yeah, yeah, I've read that story.
- [70:27]
Podcast Host
It's wild.
- [70:28]
Graham Linehan
I know.
- [70:29]
Podcast Host
And then they make the Matrix, the fourth one. It's just. I actually didn't finish it.
- [70:32]
Graham Linehan
Oh, no.
- [70:33]
Podcast Host
So terrible.
- [70:33]
Graham Linehan
Yeah, but the idea that, that like, like, like, what's his name? Oh, I've forgotten his name. It's jumped out of my head. But anyway, there's a comedian, very funny comedian, and he said, no chick made the Matrix. And it's so true. It's such a male film. It's like, what are you talking about? No chick made the Matrix. So anyway, but, but, but just to troll Sarah and to troll any gender critical feminists paying attention, that's what the British. The Belfast Film Festival put on an International Women's Day. And they got a trans. A band to sing a song and stuff like this. So. So the whole thing is, the programming for International Women's Day was just basically spitting in the face of women, you know?
- [71:14]
Podcast Host
Well, we. We had a period where it felt like for a year, every major women's event or award was won by a trans person.
- [71:21]
Graham Linehan
Oh.
- [71:22]
Podcast Host
And it could be like, oh, okay, it's not women's. But Eurovision would be a trans person.
- [71:26]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [71:26]
Podcast Host
International would be a tr. Like, it was. Every single one went to a trans woman.
- [71:29]
Graham Linehan
Eurovision's fair enough. But, but, but the one that I found funny because it was a show I was involved in was Motherland recently, and it had, like, three of the actresses from Motherland. And one and that Jordan thingy bloke who took his out on, on the, some sort of a weekly channel for entertainment show and slapped it on a piano. He was named as best female comedy performance.
- [71:56]
Podcast Host
And these women are probably clapping him.
- [71:58]
Graham Linehan
Exactly. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And you take our award. And I, I was sitting there and, and I know that the women involved in, in Motherland, you know, they're, they're, you know, they won't make an objection and say, but hang on a sec, another Motherland actress could have got that place, you know what I mean? That's been given to a man at the expense of a woman. But they'll never see it that way.
- [72:19]
Podcast Host
Is this more a failure of men or women?
- [72:23]
Graham Linehan
That's a really great question. Oh my God. Okay, there's a couple of things going on at the same time, I think. First is that yes, I'm afraid women have been a major driver behind this movement. Toxic empathy has been a driver. I, I think of it in the same way as women who write letters to serial killers in prison, you know, or women who get mugged 20 times and still still live in the area and don't think anything. It's like a failure of self protection. It's a failure of approaching the world on the world's terms. I used to have with my daughter, I would, I would beg my daughter to take self defense classes and she would refuse because she does, she said she does not want to live in a world where that's necessary. And I was like, you live in that world, there's nothing you can do about that. So you might as well learn a few tips to, to take care of yourself if someone say, approaches you in an elevator. And on that I heard a funny thing which, which ties back to what we're saying. I saw this guy, I think he was a psychologist and he, he said, he said a human, a woman will walk to an elevator and the door will open and she will see what looks like a dangerous man. What gives all the, all the, all the wrong messages being sent out, there's a dangerous man in the lift. And, and, and he said, every other species will remove themselves from that danger. Human beings are the only ones who will say, no, I'm being unfair, he's probably just a normal guy. And I'm judging by appearances. And they will get onto, into a soundproof room with a dangerous person, a person they feel is dangerous. And that is what the whole trans movement is. It's lots of, you know, there's a lot of women who are saying, no, I don't think these people need to be, you know, like you saw with Nicola Sturgeon talking about Adam Graham trying to spare the feelings of a double rapist. You know, people asking her, is he a man or woman? No, he's a rapist.
- [74:31]
Podcast Host
She would say, we had a moment after Sarah Everard died where the country came together and said, okay, there is a clear and obvious risk that women face that men don't.
- [74:41]
Graham Linehan
Yes.
- [74:41]
Podcast Host
And women came forward for women, you know, and I mean, it was awful what the police did in. I think it was in Clapham Common, but. And the time and Covid, obviously terrible. But we had a moment then.
- [74:53]
Graham Linehan
Yes.
- [74:54]
Podcast Host
Where we put women forward and we said, no, we are going to protect them. And it. For me, even me. Do you know, there was one thing I did and I still do it now if I'm walking behind a woman.
- [75:04]
Graham Linehan
Oh, yeah.
- [75:05]
Podcast Host
I now let them know and I say, I'm going to go ahead of you. Or I cross and go. So I don't have to have them
- [75:10]
Graham Linehan
feel like, oh, I cry. I always cross. Yeah, yeah. But it's like, but, but, but, but that, that, that again, it, it is only half the story. I mean, the reason why this era ever think did not take off to the extent that it should have is because there is not really a united front. There are women who believe in intersexual feminism, which puts men ahead of women in their feminism. Right. Because trans women, they basically worship trans women. And there's the other side who don't do that. And, and as a result, it diffused the fight against female violence. You know, but it's. I don't want to put it all on women because there's also a aspect that men have been really bad on, which is simply not caring. You know, it's like, it's like if you get to a stage where a man can beat up a woman in a boxing ring and no men have stood up to say, or few men have stood up to say, this is absolutely wrong and must be stopped, then, you know, that's, that's pretty bad. And it's pretty bad that there weren't more objections from men at the time.
- [76:14]
Podcast Host
Well, I can see how some women got drawn into it. I can't make an excuse for any man. That's why I asked you the question. Because when I see men doing this, I'm like, what are you, what are you doing?
- [76:25]
Graham Linehan
Have you seen the film Eddington?
- [76:28]
Podcast Host
Is that the one with the police and the politician? Yes, Yes, I have.
- [76:33]
Graham Linehan
Yeah. I loved Eddington. And, and Eddington has in it one of the keys to this whole thing, which is woke women and the boys trying to have sex with them. Right. And you see the boy, he's got the most famous line in the film where he's talking about whiteness to his father. And his father says, are you, are you retarded? You're white. And that's the end of the scene.
- [76:55]
Podcast Host
You know, Andrew Wilson in this interview, I said, look, what, what do you do about this, all of this? And he said, you just have to subvert it back.
- [77:04]
Graham Linehan
Yes, yes, that's a great point. Yeah. That's why I think Comet, that's why I use comedy. People think you shouldn't use comedy to approach this. And it's like, how can you ignore this material if you have any, if you, if you place any value on your ability as a comedy writer? You know what I mean?
- [77:20]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [77:20]
Graham Linehan
How can you ignore this material? Some of it is so funny. Like you see the, the trans woman ice skater who barely knew how to skate and the music's playing and there's people with terrible flags around her. It's just, and he stumbles and then gets up back to his feet and it's like, wow, you really are treating these people like their special needs or something, you know, and it's like, no, he's just a guy dressed as a woman. What are you doing? But anyway, sorry, what were we talking about just before that? I just wanted to make one point.
- [77:52]
Podcast Host
Well, I talked about what happened, the movement, Sarah Everard. And I also asked you whether it's more of a fault of men and women. And, and I, I asked you. But again, my point is, I don't think there's any excuse for any man, especially anyone who's a father.
- [78:05]
Graham Linehan
Absolutely. I mean, you know, I would, I would say, I would have arguments with people about this and I would say, I mean, you know, I, my, my brother in law was, was publicly came out against me very soon. I'd never had a, never had a kind word, I'd never had a crossword with him. And he publicly called me mad and stuff like this. He is a daughter, you know, it's like, what are you doing? Why don't you, you know, surely you don't want your daughter in a female only space with a man. And of course they never let the argument get that far. They just sneer and call you a bigot and, and that's it. But I just think, yeah, I, I can't Imagine being a father to a daughter and not fighting this fight. I think that would be like the worst kind of cowardice, you know?
- [78:52]
Podcast Host
Yeah. I do wonder how that was a big part of the conversation with. With Andrew Wilson. It's like, it's easy to diagnose problems, but, like, how do we change things? Because I, you know, I want a better world for my kids. I want my kids to have kids and afford a home and have a nice life. And I. I see this down downward trajectory and I'm like, I'm sure I'm on the good side. I'm pretty sure I am. How do we shift this? And I don't have a clear answer, because I look at the uk, I think Zach Polanski is genuinely mad. I think he will destroy the economy because he doesn't understand economics. I see him gyrating on stage with a guy, looks like he's probably a stripper from a. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, where are the parents going? Yeah, like, no, not this.
- [79:42]
Graham Linehan
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [79:43]
Podcast Host
And I.
- [79:43]
Graham Linehan
But you know that you notice Martin Alley wasn't there.
- [79:46]
Podcast Host
Yeah, of course he wasn't there. Of course he wasn't there. I mean, it's the Trojan horse. We all know what's going on there is these groups get together and they use each other. But I look at these young people and go, what. What are we. What are we offering them? And you can't offer the opposite side. You can't offer reform because there's guys
- [80:01]
Graham Linehan
in suits and toys and hunting. Hunting hats.
- [80:05]
Podcast Host
Yeah. Like, where is just something good and normal we can offer people.
- [80:08]
Graham Linehan
I know, I know. And that's kind of speaks back a little bit to the fact that there's no culture. There's no, there's no real culture for kids at the moment because they're going to Green Party conferences to dance. You know, it's like they just. They just want to be young. And, you know, as you said earlier, we were talking about Palestine earlier, and you were saying it's a natural thing for young people to look at Palestine and feel that it's the bullied people and so on, especially given the propaganda that's coming. That's. That's. That's released to that ex. To that end. But, you know, you. You do expect more from people like Polanski, who's a grown man, you know, and, and presumably is able to read. And presumably, you know, I've been reading about the targeted assassination programs, which is like a potted history of, Of. Of Israel and, And you see just how bitter the war has been and how. Just how awful it was in the past and, and, and, and, and how determined, you know, the, the Palestinians are to kill every Jew on the face of the earth. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it. I'm not saying that that means that you change your allegiances, but it certainly should inform the debate. It certainly should inform the discussion.
- [81:17]
Podcast Host
So is their culture just activism? Is that it? Where we had the young people, we had music.
- [81:22]
Graham Linehan
Yeah, exactly.
- [81:23]
Podcast Host
They have activism.
- [81:23]
Graham Linehan
That's it. That's it. It's activism. And then you get to dance and have sex with people who are nearby. It's great. It's a way of meeting up and so on. But what's the alternative? The only thing I saw recently that felt like it had any similar, you know, cultural vibe was, Was Coachella, you know, and even in Coachella, the fucking Strokes are putting up pictures of Gaza, you know.
- [81:45]
Podcast Host
Oh, I went to see, I went to see Massive Attack.
- [81:51]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [81:51]
Podcast Host
I think it was in London.
- [81:53]
Graham Linehan
Yeah, they're really gone.
- [81:55]
Podcast Host
Look, we could have a discussion on Palestine and Israel and I don't think we'll see fully eye to eye.
- [82:01]
Graham Linehan
Okay.
- [82:02]
Podcast Host
Yeah. Because I myself look and I still see devastation and lots of people who are caught in the middle of a warfare and being killed. And I just hate being people being killed. But that's another two hour conversation.
- [82:15]
Graham Linehan
I would say. Placed.
- [82:16]
Podcast Host
Placed.
- [82:17]
Graham Linehan
Yeah, surely by Hamas, you know.
- [82:19]
Podcast Host
Sure. But I mean, there's a lot of missiles that have gone both ways and just innocent people are dying and I'd rather just have that over a beer and like understand each. We've had a great conversation. I don't want to end it on there. What I. But what. I don't even know what I was saying there
- [82:35]
Graham Linehan
it was. Where were we on?
- [82:37]
Podcast Host
Yeah, where were we at?
- [82:37]
Graham Linehan
We were uncultural. We were on this.
- [82:39]
Podcast Host
Yeah. So they don't. We had music.
- [82:41]
Graham Linehan
Yes. We had music and comics and physical media.
- [82:45]
Podcast Host
Yeah. We had magazines. We had, you know, whether it was my era of Kerrang where I had my heavy metal magazine and me and my friends, we would go to Tower Records and queue up to meet Sepultura and get our thing signed and then go to bricks and have a concert and then smoke weed in the park or we'd go skateboarding. We had that era when we had skateboarding and, you know, we had the era when it was like Limp Bizkit and we all look. Thought we were like cool and cut our hair and became like these, we just had these things, like these cultural moments which were all music driven. Their culture appears to be activism. What is it I'm fighting for before. And look, there has been activism through music through the years. Yeah, but there, this is constant activism. It's almost like with school, we're not breeding children to think critically about the world, we're breeding activists.
- [83:33]
Graham Linehan
Well, yeah, and, and not only that, but like, useful for the government. It seems to be. Like there seems to be certain kinds of professions that, that, that form a sort of activist class, like teachers.
- [83:45]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [83:46]
Graham Linehan
A lot of NHS people is crazy, which is crazy girl guiding, you know, it's like, it's like they think. And, and I saw a video the other day of ucla, which is a. It was a law. Law students. And they were shouting abuse and Baracking and, and, and standing up and, and making their phones go ping while this guy was talking. These are lawyers. Right. So the whole kind of culture switched into, let's stop dancing, let's stop having sex with each other, let's start changing the world. And the thing they want to change the world on are fucking like Palestine. Right. Not Sudan or any other conflict in the world, and trans rights, which are not rights, but men's demands. And these are the two things they're devoting all their energy to.
- [84:35]
Podcast Host
And mass immigration.
- [84:37]
Graham Linehan
Mass immigration. Yeah, yeah.
- [84:38]
Podcast Host
And socialism. Socialism, which always and everywhere fails.
- [84:42]
Graham Linehan
Well, you know, sorry.
- [84:43]
Podcast Host
Harry Eccles.
- [84:44]
Graham Linehan
Jordan Peterson is a neighbor, and I, I'm really, I really love him and I'm worried about him at the moment because he's very ill. Yeah. But like, but, you know, I remember him talking about some of the atrocities that the Russians carried out, including, you know, I don't know, I forget exactly what he was saying, but it might have been something about killing everyone and chucking them into a big pit, let's say.
- [85:07]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [85:07]
Graham Linehan
And the audience cheered, and he was so shocked that it took him a while to, to gather himself. And I, God, I understand that so clearly, because when you've lived your whole life feeling that things like. And I don't want to get. I don't want to draw us into the, into the Israel thing. But for me, the re. The reason I was radicalized by October 7th was not really because of how vicious and awful it was like a horrible, you know, killing, Killing kids in front of their parents and parents in front of their kids. I thought it was uniquely evil, you know, but that wasn't what radicalized me against, against the Palestine Liberation. It was the fact that the next Day people were out in the streets supporting Palestine and the Israelis hadn't even buried their dead. And that was the moment when I realized this is not Palestine support, this is anti Semitism, you know. And since then I've been pretty bloody minded about the whole thing. People are always trying to get me to change my mind. I say, no, Hamas are, Hamas need to be defeated.
- [86:13]
Podcast Host
Let me be clear this moment I wouldn't argue on.
- [86:15]
Graham Linehan
Yes.
- [86:16]
Podcast Host
This part of that history, I wouldn't argue. For me, it's, it's my whole life I've watched a perpetual war in that area.
- [86:23]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [86:24]
Podcast Host
And no, no side, no side has clean hands.
- [86:27]
Graham Linehan
No side is clean hands. But then again, when the, when the, when the Israelis do something wrong, there's a, there's a trial. But when our Arabs do something wrong, they phone their parents to tell them they've done it.
- [86:40]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [86:40]
Graham Linehan
And, and sorry, not Arabs, Palestinians.
- [86:42]
Podcast Host
And these same people have been very quiet on Yemen for a very long time.
- [86:45]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [86:46]
Podcast Host
What's happening in Yemen and there's multiple conflicts around the world.
- [86:49]
Graham Linehan
It's because they, it's because it's kind of like a child's version of what, what Palestine has done really well out of is a sort of child's version of justice, which is like these people, they're very put upon. They're. They're in a concentration camp one second and the next, the next second. You know, it's a beautiful city that's been reduced to rubble, you know, and it's, it provides for a very black and white thing. And what you were saying earlier about the, the absence of stories, the absence of films and media and so on, that means that again, just like when people are trying to seek a tribal affiliation in politics, they're also going to seek story stories in things that aren't really stories because like things like the Palestinian, the Gaza war and all that are so complicated and they're rooted in so many historical factors and so many geographical factors that, you know, it's, it's hard.
- [87:44]
Podcast Host
How can a 50. I can't process it.
- [87:45]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [87:46]
Podcast Host
You know, I will sit and make an argument pro Israel and I'll sit, I'll make an argument pro Palestine and I'll hear you say something and I want to challenge you back. And you're. And it's so complicated. How can a 15 year old.
- [87:58]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [87:59]
Podcast Host
Yet it's because of these devices. They're seeing it all the time. Whereas what did I see as a kid? I mean, my dad would have the news on at six and you Sit in the background, very quiet.
- [88:07]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [88:08]
Podcast Host
And we go to the cinema. That was our access to screens. And maybe play Nintendo.
- [88:12]
Graham Linehan
Sure.
- [88:12]
Podcast Host
This is a constant feed of information. And this, the other part of this is I hate algorithms. The reason I hate algorithms because, like, my business is. My business of a podcast is shaped by an algorithm. We have a brilliant conversation. This is a fill at steak, but when I package it for YouTube, I have to package a sugary cheeseburger with a Coke on the side. So people come in and it's like having a cigarette. It's kind of enjoyable but dirty at the same time. And so the algorithms play on our subconscious, our inner fears and our worries and our anger. They're designed to do that. It's been proven, like, deserve for conflict. Yeah. And so what conflict. The great thing about Jonathan Haidt's book, Anxious Generations, he talks about kids need to play. They need to play. And I've seen it with my daughter. I took a phone away from her and she started doing different things, Drawing, writing. She sat down and wrote a list of careers she'd want to do. And this is a distraction from play. And play is what kids need. Maybe this is the route or maybe our example to set, Graham, is we need to get rid of our phones. Get an old brick phone.
- [89:22]
Graham Linehan
Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, I mean, you know, I, I have a feeling that there's a market for a phone that just makes phone calls. And if you, if you, if you sold out to parents, you'd make a billion. And you know what I mean?
- [89:33]
Podcast Host
Well, there is. There's a thing called the light phone. They've got a few things. They've got phone text, uber maps.
- [89:42]
Graham Linehan
Okay, interesting.
- [89:43]
Podcast Host
It's about five.
- [89:44]
Graham Linehan
It's more like a compass with a phone.
- [89:46]
Podcast Host
But I bought it.
- [89:47]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [89:47]
Podcast Host
Two years ago, and I've never set it up.
- [89:51]
Graham Linehan
Yeah, yeah. It has to be sold, right? I guess it has to be. But like, but, but, but my point. But, but again, I think that's an interesting point. So I just like to re. Stress it. But, like, because we have run out of stories and franchise culture has taken over, people will look for stories in other places. And one of the places they're looking for a story, an easy one to understand with good guys and bad guys, is Palestine.
- [90:15]
Podcast Host
Well, hold on. Can I challenge that? Have we run out of stories or have algorithms taken away? Flare. So. And I'll give you a couple examples. I love football. Do you like football?
- [90:25]
Graham Linehan
No.
- [90:25]
Podcast Host
Oh, I love football. I've kind of fallen out of love with the Premier League. There's a really good book on the data. Let me give you a great statistic. There have been more managers sacked in the Premier League in 2026 than direct free kicks have been. Okay. I mean, but that, that means an incredibly low number of direct free kicks. Because statistically a direct free kick, you're not. You're more likely to score if you pass and do something else. So the game has changed. Based on statistics, we've taken the flare out of the game. Ryan Gigs won't score the famous goal he scored against Arsenal. We won't run the length of the pitch because that's a risk. It's better to pass sideways and backwards.
- [91:01]
Graham Linehan
Right.
- [91:02]
Podcast Host
And so the Premier League's got Bo, right. Have we lost the flair in creativity? Because the algorithm say for Netflix, they know what people will watch. And so we. We aren't allowing for the flair.
- [91:13]
Graham Linehan
People. People forget one of the key things about creativity because art is the. Is the. Is the craft of. Sorry, is that the right way to put it? Art? Let's say art is the art. Art is the art of creating things that people do not know they want yet.
- [91:30]
Podcast Host
Yes. So. So would Netflix today. Would Netflix by Father Ted that.
- [91:36]
Graham Linehan
Oh, I tell you, yeah, who knows? Who knows? They may not. It may not even make it to the screen. You know, it's. But, but, but, you know, it wouldn't make it to the screen these days because it's hopelessly out of date. The Catholic Church isn't a. A force anymore. But I do think there's room for things.
- [91:51]
Podcast Host
But you understand the sentiment. You know, you could write something. And what I'm saying is, is, are we losing flair?
- [91:56]
Graham Linehan
Well, we possibly are, but then again, we are gaining tools. Like, like, you know, if you. I saw this artist, right? And he's exactly the right attitude. What he did with his art is that he fed it into an AI along with examples of art he also liked and he was influenced by. Fed it in along with the. With the textures he often works in and so forth. And now he makes animation out of his. Out of his. His paintings.
- [92:22]
Podcast Host
You know, also, I might. I had this discussion with somebody once actually, is that we're getting very close to be able to. I know you can make a whole film using AI, but having that tool, that anyone can sit there and create an entire film, that we will have millions of films, like an infinite supply of films. And we will need websites which order them based on what the user thinks. It's a bit like you go, is it Rotten Tomatoes? We was it Metacritic, where you have the. The journalist score.
- [92:49]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [92:49]
Podcast Host
And the. And there's like, this divergence, like tomatoes.
- [92:52]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [92:52]
Podcast Host
Don't fucking trust the journalists who. You've been paid for that. We'll have a gen, like, all these films come out, and that will allow for the flair. Because, like, one guy. I can have an idea for a film. You and I could sit here and have an idea for a film and just go and make it. Because the example is that there's an app I wanted to make for years. I had this idea for business. I'm never going to do it. I was talking to my son about it in an hour. We created the prototype in Claude, and Claude can build the whole app. Me and my son can deploy an Internet business in a day because of AI so maybe we can do the same with films and we get the individual flare back. Maybe.
- [93:24]
Graham Linehan
Absolutely. And, you know, there's a few things that. That have that air already. You know, one thing I realized recently, and this isn't a great, like, cultural development, although I sort of think it would be, is that it's now possible for the guys who did South Park, Parker and Stone.
- [93:45]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [93:45]
Graham Linehan
To make a sequel to Team America, uh, the puppet movie.
- [93:51]
Podcast Host
Please do. Please make that sequel.
- [93:52]
Graham Linehan
Exactly. Because they no longer have to use. They no longer have to use puppets for every shot. They could use AI to create interim shots. They said they would never do it again because it was so hard.
- [94:04]
Podcast Host
Right.
- [94:05]
Graham Linehan
But AI now makes that possible, and we could get a Team America, too. That is one of the few films I would like to see a sequel for. I think it's one of the funniest movies ever made.
- [94:12]
Podcast Host
Have you ever seen the hidden clips? The cut?
- [94:14]
Graham Linehan
No. Let's look at it.
- [94:15]
Podcast Host
There's a whole. There's a this. You know, the sex scene.
- [94:18]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [94:18]
Podcast Host
There's, like, the cut version. They made it. It's terrible. Look, I'm conscious. I've taken a lot of your time. This is incredible, and I'm so glad to meet you. And I'm like, what you've done is amazing.
- [94:29]
Graham Linehan
And.
- [94:29]
Podcast Host
And, you know, I love Father Ted, so it's just an honor to meet you. But just a couple of quotes and questions.
- [94:34]
Graham Linehan
Yeah.
- [94:35]
Podcast Host
If you're right, and I mean, not if you're right, you know you're right. But, like, if you're right and enough other people are right. Where do you think we are 10 years down the line? How. How will things shift? What do you want to see happen?
- [94:48]
Graham Linehan
Well, unfortunately, in 10 years, we're going to have to deal with the thousands of kids who have, who were told that they should transition and will be left almost like victims of a, of a war, you know, with scars and wounds and, and mental problems that won't go away. So, so one thing that's going to have to happen is the entire medical apparatus is going to have to shift to detransition and helping them through life, you know, which is, which is going to be tough. But I think it will happen because I think their stories are the ones that are impossible to ignore and they'll probably affect the greatest change, you know. But what I would hope, I don't know if this is a different question to what you've asked, but what I hope happens is that we, we look back at these years, we look back at all these victims of, of cancellation, of, of, of transitioning surgeries and all this sort of stuff and we say to ourselves, okay, the Internet made this happen. How do we ensure it never happens again? How do we guard ourselves against a mass delusion that seems convincing, that tells everybody they're going to be the nicest people in the world by, by fighting for these rights, but actually is doing the opposite to what you're saying it's doing. It's making trans identified people more miserable, it's, it's making us all less free, it's compelled speech, etc. Etc. Like, like how could something that's so bad in so many different ways spread like wildfire throughout society to such an extent that you see the trans flag, which by the way was, was, was was created by a cross dressing fetishist who used to steal his, his mother's clothes to masturbate into. You know, that's, that's who made the trans flag. And that flag is now flying outside schools, it's flying outside FBI buildings or MI5 buildings, you know, the White House. Not the White House.
- [96:39]
Podcast Host
It's never been in the White.
- [96:39]
Graham Linehan
Dated Biden during Biden, I think it did. But, but like it has had complete cultural takeover of society. We need to ask ourselves, okay, our culture is vulnerable to being hacked in a very significant way. It happened once with the trans movement. How can we make sure it never happens again? So that's the next phase.
- [97:00]
Podcast Host
Yeah, because it, I don't think it's a fight. You win and it, the door closes, I think the push will always be there. And if we lose this fight, then what?
- [97:11]
Graham Linehan
Oh, I don't think we can really afford to lose it. And I don't think we will eventually because I, like, just today I found out a woman's been raped in prison by a male, you know, and those things will just become harder and harder to ignore. We were always saying, you know, even one rape is one too many. But if they continue with the practice of putting men in women's prisons, of course it's going to happen over and over again. And we will now be living in a society where one extra punishment for not paying your TV license is to be raped is to live with the potential of being raped. You know, and that's not a society that I think if people really think about it, they'll want to be part of.
- [97:54]
Podcast Host
So we want a renaissance of common sense.
- [97:57]
Graham Linehan
Yeah. Yeah.
- [97:58]
Podcast Host
All right, final question. Everyone viewing this will have their own opinions. But yeah, as they, as they exit, listen, in the show, if you can leave them with just one thought regarding this, perhaps they're nervous about having an opinion, perhaps they're nervous about the risk in their career. How should people really think? Like, where do you. It's almost like, where did you draw courage from?
- [98:23]
Graham Linehan
Well, it's always been the David Mamet line, and I'm familiar about repeating myself, but David Mamet and Glengarry Glen Ross has one character say, always tell the truth. It's easier to remember, you know, and, and the thing about the trans issue is that there's so many rules of language and etiquette and there's so many taboos dead naming and misgendering and all this sort of stuff. They're really hard to remember. And they also say to people, you know, my, my pronouns are what's so hard about them? It's ze, zo and ga. You know, it's like. Well, actually that's kind of hard to remember.
- [98:57]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [98:58]
Graham Linehan
You know, but like if you tell the truth and you stick to the truth and you stick to basic common sense, you can never be tripped up, you can never be gotchaed, you know, so when people, when people, the only way that people have to fight against people like me or TERFs or whatever is that they, they, they go to people in the background, they say, you should stop speaking to this person because they're a bigot, blah, blah, blah, they cannot fight you head on, you know, So I would say pick those head on fights, pick those debates, and always tell the truth. It's easier to remember.
- [99:35]
Podcast Host
Thank you, Matt. I really enjoyed hanging out with you last night and, and today and I appreciate your time and like, look, I wish you all the best. I think what you said done is courageous and just really important. So thank you, man. And thank you for everyone listening. We'll see you soon.