#176 - Narinder Kaur - Inflation Is Brilliant For The Rich

Summary

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The Peter McCormack Show — Episode #176

Guest: Narinder Kaur
Title: "Inflation Is Brilliant For The Rich"
Date: May 19, 2026
Host: Peter McCormack

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Episode Overview

In this candid, wide-ranging discussion, Peter McCormack and guest Narinder Kaur take on the major divisions and frustrations shaping Britain in 2026: inflation, class divides, the collapse of trust in politics, immigration, family and gender roles, and how media and algorithms stoke polarization.

They challenge each other's assumptions from both left and right perspectives, seek common ground, and dissect why everything seems to be getting worse for everyone but the rich—especially under persistent inflation. The conversation is deeply personal, often humorous, at times combative and vulnerable, with both participants keenly aware of their own biases, personal backgrounds, and the broader social machinery driving conflict.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Are We Nearing a Revolution? - The Search for Unity

[00:00–04:35]

• Opening question: Is the UK on the verge of some public revolution?
• Both agree polarization is severe, but finding agreement often happens off-air, in green rooms or private life.
• Quote [03:09] — Kaur: "If you voted Brexit, I can’t be your friend … Now it's the same with Reform."
• McCormack regrets political tribalism, argues it's ultimately self-defeating. They agree “the enemy” is a government that promises change, wins power, and only the rich benefit.

2. Media, Algorithms, and Manufactured Rage

[04:35–07:51]

• Both blame divisiveness on media and social algorithms designed to monetize rage, not on any particular ideology.
• Narinder is often accused of “race baiting,” but describes her activism around racism as a lived experience, not manufactured controversy.
• Quote [05:35] — McCormack: "The algorithms aren't designed to be right wing... they're designed to make us fight."

3. Lived Experience of Racism & Social Mobility

[07:51–11:10]

• Narinder details growing up as the only brown child in school in the North of England, enduring persistent institutional and street racism.
• McCormack contrasts this with his middle-class “privilege,” but relays modern white boys feeling a strange sense of exclusion.
• Both agree statistics support that ethnic minorities still face the greatest disadvantages, despite changing cultures.

4. Dating, Gender Roles & The Changing Family

[11:10–18:22]

• Narinder, also a South Asian matchmaker, shares stories of changing expectations in dating and marriage across generations and cultures.
  • Women want tall, wealthy, successful men; men prioritize looks.
  • Society tells women to pursue career, but biology and culture complicate the timing of family life.
• Quote [18:23] — McCormack: "Women can do one thing men can't — have babies. Should we not optimize society to help them have babies?"
• Both discuss the collapse of the traditional "family unit" in British society, and cultural contrasts to large, extended South Asian families.

5. Economic Pressures: Cost of Living, Housing, and Inflation

[27:29–29:31]

• McCormack notes how unaffordable life has become, comparing his parents' house purchase ratio (3.5x salary in the 1970s) to now (10x+).
• Blames both lack of housebuilding and the flooding of money/credit (Cantillon Effect), driving asset price inflation — "inflation is brilliant for the rich."

6. The Cantillon Effect, Government Spending, and Decline

[29:31–34:46]

• McCormack explains the Cantillon Effect: Those closer to new money (the rich) benefit first; everyone else gets higher prices and stagnant wages.
• Emphasizes: The debt, deficit, and inflation dynamic means the current generation offloads the bill onto their children.
  • Quote [31:01] — McCormack: "The interest on the debt alone is more than we spend on education."

7. Politics & Disaffection: No Party For Us

[34:46–39:45]

• Both feel politically homeless – neither Labour nor Conservative represent them, Greens are idealistic but likely to make the middle class “even poorer.”
• McCormack likes some ideas from outsiders (e.g., Argentina’s libertarian Javier Milei), but sees UK politics as bereft of economic competence.

8. The Problem with Government: Taxation, Surveillance, Spending

[39:45–47:38]

• Both critique UK governance as a managerial state obsessed with taxation, regulation, and surveillance while being unable to address real needs.
• McCormack: Government should protect life, liberty, and property; redistribution has become coercion.
• Narinder: Middle-earners are taxed to breaking point, and even as a “Labour lawyer,” she no longer recognizes the party.

9. Dividing Lines in Economic Policy: Taxing the Rich & Minimum Wage

[52:02–57:10]

• Debate over whether business owners (like McCormack) should be compelled to raise staff wages if it makes their business unviable.
• Kaur: Too many small business owners enjoy lavish lifestyles yet resist paying staff fairly.
• Quote [54:46] — McCormack: "Do you think I should run a business at a loss to pay what the government says is minimum wage?"
• They agree many businesses are on the edge, and that relentless regulation and minimum wage hikes can kill marginal enterprises, but also recognize staff need a living wage.

10. Big vs. Small Business – The Regulatory Squeeze

[62:33–63:45]

• Discussion of why chains (Lidl, Sainsbury's, etc.) survive while independents collapse — lobbying for regulations that favor scale, plus tax avoidance.
• Again, the richest and biggest players benefit most from policy and inflation.

11. Immigration — Beyond Left vs. Right

[67:08–92:00]

• Deep dive into immigration:
  • Narinder insists much of the opposition to immigration is racially motivated, a pattern seen for decades.
  • McCormack raises complex questions about cultural change, integration, and whether there's an upper limit to immigration.
  • Both agree on the need for compassion, speedier asylum processing, and the economic need for workers.
  • Kaur: “If every brown and black person put tools down and left the country, this country would collapse.” [81:41]
  • McCormack reflects on the nuances of ethnic crime, but both agree women in the UK are most at risk from people they know, not immigrants.

12. The Real Enemy: State as Machine, The Rich Get Richer

[92:09–99:11]

• Both conclude the ultimate problem is the self-interested state and its wealthy enablers, regardless of party.
• “They are rival gangs fighting for control of the territory and resources” — only the rich consistently benefit.

13. Bitcoin, Inflation, and the Future of Money

[101:02–103:55]

• McCormack gives a simple primer on money printing, inflation, and why Bitcoin matters: "Things aren't getting more expensive, the money is getting weaker."
• Quote [102:16] — Kaur: "They've got a quid more expensive."
  McCormack: "No, they haven't. The money's got weaker."

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• McCormack [05:35]: "The algorithms aren't designed to be right wing... they're designed to make us fight."
• Kaur [18:23]: "Women can do one thing men can't — have babies. Should we not optimize society to help them have babies?"
• McCormack [30:42]: "Inflation is brilliant for the rich."
• McCormack [31:01]: "The interest on the debt alone is more than we spend on education. Every time we increase the debt... we're saying, 'You kids, that's your problem.'"
• Kaur [81:41]: "If every brown and black person put arms down today, put tools down and left this country, this country would collapse."
• McCormack [92:09]: "I just think our entire government is completely dysfunctional now... I think the most important thing this country can do is realize we are all fighting a state.”
• McCormack [101:02]: "Do you agree as we create more money, it drives inflation?... the people closer to where that money is created get the most benefits.”

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Timestamps for Core Segments

• 00:00–04:35: Polarization, tribalism, and the prospect of revolution
• 04:35–11:10: Media/algorithm-driven outrage; racism as "lived experience"
• 11:10–18:22: Dating, family, fertility, and shifting social expectations
• 27:29–34:46: The reality of inflation, debt, and class divides — Cantillon Effect explained
• 34:46–47:38: Political homelessness, critique of UK governance, and redistribution
• 52:02–57:10: Living wage, small business struggles, and wage policy debate
• 62:33–67:08: Big business vs. small business, regulatory traps
• 67:08–92:00: Immigration — personal and macro perspectives
• 92:09–99:11: State as machine, rich getting richer, why both left/right fail us
• 101:02–103:55: Bitcoin, fiat decline, and the future of money

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Tone & Style

• Conversational, honest, occasionally combative but ultimately empathetic.
• Both host and guest are highly self-aware, acknowledging the limitations of their perspectives and the deep flaws in the current system.
• Frequent use of humor, personal anecdotes, irony, and direct challenges.
• Reluctant agreement: They consistently return to the need for common ground while highlighting the roots of persistent disagreement.

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Memorable Moments

• [03:09] — Narinder: Losing friends over Brexit/Reform votes — evidence of real-life splits.
• [29:31] — Peter's accessible explanation of how asset inflation works.
• [44:12–44:50] — McCormack: “Inflation's brilliant for me... Rich people love [it].”
• [81:41] — Narinder: The country’s economic reality would collapse without migrant labor.
• [90:39] — McCormack reveals Sarah Everard worked for him, moving the discussion on women's safety from statistics into lived experience.
• [95:37, 104:14] — Both reflect on how much they actually agree upon and the importance of "middle ground.”
• [101:02–103:55] — McCormack's "Money Is Getting Weaker" and bitcoin/TV price analogy.

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Conclusion

Final Reflection:
Both speakers find themselves politically homeless and dissatisfied by the collapse of trust in institutions, constant economic decline for all but the rich, and the algorithmic pull toward division.
Ultimately, they argue for more honest public debate, skepticism of political promises, and a willingness to search for agreement in the "messy middle" — even as both left and right seem primed for permanent conflict.

[96:01] — McCormack:
"I think your enemy, my enemy, the enemy of everyone is a government which will tell us what we want to hear to get our votes. And then five years later, everyone's life is worse. Apart from the rich."

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End of Summary

Transcript

[A]

What's the realistic chances? Have there been some kind of public revolution?

[B]

I think we're getting. I think we're getting nearer. I mean, you're getting to the point now where middle class people are like,

[A]

to have a revolution, we've all got to be united against the government.

[B]

Maybe it's the starting point is having conversations like this.

[A]

Yeah, maybe actually two people who should

[B]

disagree going, well, what do we agree on?

[A]

Yeah. And that's.

[B]

And I think you and I have agreed on more than we.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We realize I probably don't understand the immigration topic enough.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I think we have to get. We have to try and meet in the middle more.

[A]

Yes. But I think I agree with that.

[B]

I think your enemy, my enemy, Kurt's enemy, the enemy of everyone is a government which will tell us what we want to hear to get our votes. And then five years later, everyone's life is worse. Apart from the rich.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is me dressed up for you.

[A]

You still got people listening and watching.

[B]

We have.

[A]

Well, listen, I like to look. I want to look. Ye more about looking good.

[B]

I'm so glad you agreed to do this because I can't. I can't get anybody who's from the left on air. We had Zoe Gardner book.

[A]

She pulled out why I love Zoe.

[B]

Because I said some nice things about Rupert Lowe.

[A]

Oh, we'll talk about that.

[B]

We'll talk about that.

[A]

It's only because you said tea and cake.

[B]

No, you are.

[A]

I'm a Geordie. I'm a Geordie. You said tea and cake. I'm there.

[B]

Well, do you know why I wanted to do it? Because, like, you get in there in the bum fights.

[A]

Yeah, I do.

[B]

You do, yeah.

[A]

That's a Geordie in me, I think.

[B]

Yeah. And I do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But sometimes, do you ever sit back and think, what are we doing? What are we doing?

[A]

Yeah, I know, I do. I. I ask that quite a lot. And even when I've been on with people who are complete bipolar, opposite political spectrum, there's so much we have in common in the green rooms. On all the debate shows I've done and I'm sat there with people who. I will. You'll see the tweets and think, oh, my God. And I'm sure they look at my tweets and say, oh, my God. And then we sit in the green room. Andrea Jenkins, me and her, sat in the green room talking about our kids, talking about, oh, my God, I love your dress. Oh, my God. What's that lip suit you got? On. And there's so much we have in common. The stars aligned. Actually, there's common ground here.

[B]

We had 10 minutes before we started. You had a bit of cake. I'm gonna have my lemon cake in a minute. And we talked about kids, talked about going to India.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

If your husband's here, me and him, we'll talk about Liverpool. Should I may sl. Go. And I reckon if we went out and had dinner, we didn't talk about politics, there would probably be no disagreement.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This political line, it goes through our country and everybody's fighting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And nothing's getting better.

[A]

But more recently. Yeah, sure, definitely more recently. I mean, ever since Brexit, before Brexit, I think everyone was kind of on the same page and. Okay, we might disagree on this. Brexit happened and the divisions began.

[B]

I think that's a good point. Yeah, I think it's a fair point

[A]

for me is when I thought, oh, that's when I actually, some people. This is controversial to some people. I. I stop being friends with people. I thought, if you vote at Brexit, I can't be your friend. And now it's the same with reform.

[B]

I don't think you should do that.

[A]

Yeah, people argue with me about that.

[B]

I just don't.

[A]

I just can't look at you in the face.

[B]

This is. Well, this is why I wanted to talk to you. Because I think if. I mean, I haven't actually voted in the last three elections. I think I'm more small government than conservative. I wouldn't vote for reform. I could tell you why I wouldn't vote for reform. There's some things I like about Kemi. There's some things I like about Rupert Lowe, especially on the economic side, but I haven't voted. And I keep looking at this every day. That's all fighting be the same. I think what we doing? What are we actually like? What is it we want? I reckon I could guess your position on pretty much every issue and I reckon you could guess mine. I reckon you'd be pro trans rights and you would care about the environment and you would want your pro immigration. And you're probably very supportive of equal rights. And you probably guessed that I am.

[A]

Right. Who would not be supportive of equal rights?

[B]

Well, in the environment. So equal rights is probably one of the areas I wouldn't argue with. I've got a daughter. But it's how. But how are those equal rights distributed? How they legislated. But what I'm saying, the point I'm trying To get to is like in the end, we've gone from Labor Conservative back to labor and we're getting smaller and smaller terms for the Prime Minister, whoever replaces.

[A]

I'm getting sick of that.

[B]

Well, get sick of that. It's a bit like Tottenham and their manager.

[A]

I'm just fed up with it.

[B]

And now who appears like the two of the leading parties are going to election are brand new parties. And I look at this and go, the prime ministers aren't surviving. We've got new insurgent parties. Maybe the problem is the politics itself is the government itself.

[A]

Or maybe the problem is the media and clickbait. Social media algorithm. And I'm going to say the algorithm misinformation. A heavy right wing media in this country and a right wing algorithm. I'm going to say that's the problem. I think it's causing this, this huge, dramatic, theatrical clickbait and it's all monetized. There's a money element behind this. So until you actually look at. Actually, if you click on Farage. Farage, there's money to be made. These companies know the minute they put Farage on the front line, people are clicking on it. Not because it's any good. Huh.

[B]

I think it's darker than that.

[A]

Do you?

[B]

Yeah, I think it's. I think the algorithms aren't designed to be right wing. I think the algorithms sometimes look or appear to sway one way. Or appear to you. They do. I think they're designed to make us fight.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. That's what I mean.

[B]

So you go back.

[A]

It's rage. It's rage. It's like that. It rewards rage.

[B]

What's Narinder said today?

[A]

Yeah. And then. Oh, but, but so it's rage and then picking on it. And it's. And that's what people are clicking on, though.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They don't want to watch. Boring.

[B]

Well, if you think this, this show today finally get someone from the left on, which I'm really glad about.

[A]

Yeah. And am I the first from the left?

[B]

No. I mean, we had Mike Tapp, who's a Labor politician, but I think he's more center ground. We had Vince Cable here. We had an environmental guy, but I've tried. I offered Zach.

[A]

I wonder why they see I'm not scared, though. I'm just like, what you see is what you get. So I'm not going to be scared.

[B]

Well, it might be because I have them online or maybe they don't want to have the discussion. But I know this business, this podcast business is the higher Your numbers, the more money you make.

[A]

Right, okay.

[B]

And so when you package it and you put together a thumbnail or you put together a title, it's like the. The most dramatic.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Rage baiting will do.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I could sit here with you. I go, right, I know, I know. I'm going to get under. No. And just get.

[A]

And she'll say anyway. She's daft. She's just going to say it.

[B]

And you and me could have a big fight. People will clip it and it'll be great. But I'm just like, you don't want to do that.

[A]

Why?

[B]

I mean, we have to plan our titles, but we don't do all politics shows. Like, we had one that just went out with a guy who thinks we're living in a simulation. And so our title was brilliant. It was like the simulation is to test AI and people. Oh, that's amazing. And the content's good. But I. Did you ever smoke?

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'm a real anti smoker, so I

[B]

think I. I think the algorithm's a bit like having a cigarette, you know, in that you get that kind of

[A]

like on the news again.

[B]

No, no. Then you feel dirty. Yeah, yeah. But you feel dirty afterwards. Even to the point. The other night I was discussing it at home with my kids. I was like, maybe what I should do is just make the podcast. It's a donation. You. You. It's behind a paywall. It costs a tenor a month. And then we'll just say, here's the guest.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

And we'll just have conversations. I don't know. I feel like.

[A]

Well, do you feel you're complicit? Yeah, yeah, I do.

[B]

I feel like I'm.

[A]

We have a responsibility, don't we?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

That's actually quite. Yeah, that's quite good that you recognize that, because I think we do as adults.

[B]

Do you ever have those feelings?

[A]

Yeah, but do you think I'm rage baiting? Because I get accused of that all the time. And I think then if you think that I'm rage baiting just about fighting racism, that's weird. I'm fighting racism. And you think that's ra. Or that the other line, race baiter, which I think is disgusting. It's just a legalized way of being racist, actually. And I think I'm fighting racism. I fought racism my entire life. I was just saying to Kurt that, you know, Newcastle because he loved Newcastle. People love Newcastle. I have bad feelings about Newcastle because I experienced so much racism there. So if you think that I'm like this is all made up and this is not a lived experience and I'm fighting racism somehow that makes it rage bait. I'm astonished at that. What do you want me to be quiet?

[B]

What was that lived experience like? I've not walked your shoes. I'm a white kid from Bedford, fairly middle class town, went to a private school. I didn't experience anything. I would say if my son was here, he, he would say some of his age group feel a weird kind of racism. It's more of a discrimination because they're white boys.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. They feel like they should say really?

[A]

If that's unheard of.

[B]

Yeah. It's not like an over in the street racism. It's more a career and shame form of racism. Where DEI swung so far one way they feel like they're being excluded from society because they don't take a box.

[A]

Really. But my argument to that would be that it's, that's not, it's institutional, it's not been proved. There's no stats to prove that if they're feeling it. So you're saying mine's a lived experience. So my lived experience was horrific amount of racism growing up, primary school, middle school, high school, horrific amount. And that shaped who I am.

[B]

Were there not many Indian kids around?

[A]

I was the only, the only one. I was the only brown kid, there was no black kids. I was the only brown kid at George Simpson's high school during the 80s, early 90s. And you can imagine it was horrific. I was bullied, but I gave as good as I caught as well. But I was the only one.

[B]

Any fight?

[A]

No, actually, no. Not physical fights, I don't remember. But so that was. And if you've got the lived experience coupled with the fact that institutional racism exists and it will always exist. And so we're fighting. And I was an immigrant child. I was a child of immigrants. I was born in this country, but I was a child of immigrants who just come over to this country. My mum and dad couldn't speak a word of English. Well, minimum, my dad and I had to go to school. I learned English at school.

[B]

Yeah, my dad did the same.

[A]

Right. Oh, where did he come from?

[B]

He was Irish.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

So when he came over he didn't

[A]

speak proper English, but he spoke English,

[B]

not a proper English. And he got bullied because he had such a strong accent. Oh, I was only a young boy. Yeah. And when they played football he picked it up because he played Gaelic. Yeah. I mean it's not the same but it's like he had a different experience to you. But. Yeah, but I guess what my son would say was that all his friends or whoever say their lived experiences. Their lived experience that they feel.

[A]

But it's not backed statistically because statistically. And please don't ask me per capita, because they get me on per capita.

[B]

Good.

[A]

Yeah, he did get me. Yeah. But it was a long podcast that was. But statistically, my son's cv, by the very nature of his name, I don't know the stats at the top of my head and before everyone starts commenting, will be at the bottom of the pile.

[B]

I'm aware of that.

[A]

Right. And he will have to try 10 times as hard, 10 times as much as your son's friends. So statistically, their lived experience doesn't marry. I'm not denying them their lived experience. I would never do that. But it doesn't marry.

[B]

I think it's more like what the media has portrayed young white boys as. There's been kind of like this shame, this toxic culture, this toxic mass.

[A]

But is that not that manosphere?

[B]

And yes, that's a reaction to it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Did you watch that documentary?

[A]

I did.

[B]

What did you think? Be honest, it's fun.

[A]

I thought some of them were absolute idiots. And it was like, oh my God, you're disgusting. But there was a couple of points. Some of them said, I can't remember the names at the top of my head. I thought, actually, I can see their point. I have a son and I do see pretty much same ages as your kids, that my son and his friends, they don't know where, like, what are they allowed to say? What are they allowed to. Like, it's like, you know, what are they supposed to be? And there was a couple of comments. One of the guys said in there, as in, as a matchmaker. Because actually my other job is I'm a matchmaker.

[B]

Are you?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I didn't know that.

[A]

I'm a matchmaker with the South Asian community.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And what I. And he said a comment that he goes, girls come to the table and they're expecting six foot four, you know, million pound in the bank, da, da, da, what are you bringing to the table? And a lot of people went mad about that. Now, as a matchmaker, that's my lived experience. I have got blokes calling me and they. All they're looking for is someone pretty. Now you could say, well, that's a bit toxic. Or are they good looking? But then the girls will call me women. And they are literally, it's gotta have that much in the bank, it's gotta be 6 foot 4. Even though they're 5 foot 1 like me, they've gotta be this, they've gotta have that, they've gotta live near me, they've gotta be in the same area, they've gotta earn. This, they've gotta do. Now my daughter argues me saying, well, what's wrong with that? That's not unreasonable. And I think it's a little bit like as a matchmaker, I hear it and honestly I just think, oh well,

[B]

how many, how many single millionaire men are there?

[A]

I feel like saying that too. Well, actually we have some wealthy ones, but actually some. But the point is they're 6 foot 3, 3, 6 foot 4, whatever, they've got a million pound in the bank or they earn well, why are they going to choose you who's five foot, you know, whatever, where's the kindness? Have you as a woman ever said, I want a guy that's funny, I want a guy that's kind. I've never heard that, honest to God, as a matchmaker I've. Out of hundreds and hundreds, where do

[B]

you think that's come from? This feels like some kind of entitlement.

[A]

I know, but my daughter would really. I'm sure your daughter would argue with you about this as well because my daughter will say that's not unreasonable. Why should a girl not want? But I just think like, you match, like what are you bringing to the table? You have to know your worth. As in, yes, you can want this. Look, my husband didn't have a pot to piss in when we married, right? And he had a full set of hair, so they also say that, well, no, he's got to have a full set of head, but, well, what if he loses his hair? What are you gonna do, divorce him? So his value is on how much hair he's got. I can't make sense of it.

[B]

Is it different ages or is it all ages are acting like this?

[A]

Really good question. Sadly, I'm gonna say all ages.

[B]

All ages, yeah.

[A]

And then we've got the divorcees. And the sad fact is actually doing this job as a matchmaker, men actually, if he's 60 years old, he can go for a 50 year old. It happens. He, for some reason, I don't write the rules, he can go for a 50 year old. The 6 year old woman is going to find it a bit harder and they can't accept that. And then they'll say, oh, we've got toy boys. Yeah, but are they marrying you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are they marrying you? What is it?

[B]

Maybe they don't want that.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Maybe they're happy at 60 to have a toy boy because I mean, treatments know like where that's come from. Because I think it's okay to have aspirations, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If I was single, I know I like blondes, right. And I like. Really you like blondes? I do. Really attractive blonde, but probably way, way higher out of my depth. But I do, I'd be.

[A]

So why do men do that? So the criticism on the other side is as a matchmaker, the first and only thing a man wants is a good looking woman.

[B]

Well, but no, I want a good looking woman who's fun and cool and you know, I don't want a crazy good looking woman that wouldn't work. But I know what I bring to the table, right. And so I'd come to you, I'd be reasonably successful.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You've got a nice house, nice car. I've got, you know, this is this kind of girl I'm looking for. Blonde, tattooed, kind of cool. Can you find it? That's where I, she's got no job that would matter.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Not for me because I, I, it

[A]

depends because then they're sorting gold digger. Oh, I don't want a gold digger. And oh God, yeah.

[B]

I mean look, if do they want to work, do they not want to work? If do they want to be a homemaker while I go to work?

[A]

Do you like the idea of homemaker?

[B]

I mean I, I, for a long period of time had essentially a rental wife. Somebody came to my house and ran my house for me because I was too busy.

[A]

I need that.

[B]

I work 12, 14 hours a day, gets the washing done, gets out sorted, gets the garden sorted. And if, you know, in that environment, I don't think it's insulting for one to run the house and one to run the.

[A]

That's what happened in my house.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

See, this is why I think I'm so this side. But actually another thing, therefore we've got in common and I get in trouble for saying it. I had my babies, I wanted to stay at home and be with my babies. I didn't want to do this career thing. Well, we couldn't anyway because we didn't have family to help. So my husband went out, did his career and I stayed at home with my babies because I wanted to, I didn't want to leave them in a nursery. I think it's important for mum to be with her children.

[B]

Well, name me one other species that does that. Who does One animal species where the mum discards. Yeah, I know the children and leaves it.

[A]

Why is it so encouraged in Western culture?

[B]

Well, I, I think there's certain things where if you can, can get past the barriers, like we're going to do today, you can have these conversations because you've pointed out this in some of the women you're trying to help date, there's an entitlement there and there's also women going off to work. And I've started, I don't know if you've seen all these videos on like tick tock of women in their 40s who are. They hate their jobs. They're just saying, I hate my job. I don't want my job, I want to be home with my babies. Is, is, is there. I think we have pendulums in society that swing too far. Has the feminism things swung too far? Have we convinced young girls, you know, you should get a job, you should go to uni, sorry, go to school, go to uni, get a job. And they hit kind of their mid-30s and 35s. They want to think, yeah, they want, and they, they think I want to have kids.

[A]

And you know, well, that's gonna happen. They will phone me around 36, 37, 38, panicked. And they are super successful and they're like, actually, oh my God, I want a baby. But then you're looking at a 40 year old bloke or 45, who may have already got two kids actually. And if he hasn't, then actually he may want a wife that can, is able to have more than one kid. So scientifically, whichever way you try to slice the pie, you're most fertile in your 20s and it will drop significantly by the time you're like mid-30s, significantly, you will drop. And that's just a sad fact of life. I can't do anything about that. And men can have babies up until they're 100.

[B]

You sound like a conservative at the moment.

[A]

See, I'm telling you, you sound like

[B]

a conservative, you sound right wing.

[A]

But my daughter will really argue and say, so you want me, you've schooled me. A levels degree, work hard, work hard. Because I have worked my ass off. And she has. And then you say, stay at home with babies. She goes, that doesn't make any sense.

[B]

I tell you what I said to my daughter, I said, you should do whatever you want. Firstly, you want to go to university, go to university, you want to get a job. But if there's any remote chance you want to have a child, the most Important thing you do is you find a good bloke you want to stay with and stick with them, you know, in your 20s. Because what you don't want to do is if you get to, say 30, you want to have a child and then you meet a guy, well, you've really got two years. You got to get to know him, you got to live with him, you got to find out you like each other.

[A]

You only sound like a matchmaker. Because I say, well, you've got two years at least. Get to know them, get engaged, all of that.

[B]

And if, if it doesn't work out, then you're 32 or 34, then you're

[A]

36 and then you're 38.

[B]

Yeah, you missed out. So like be, be really young. And you know, if you don't want to work, if you want to be a, you know, mother, I will support you. You can, you can always live in my home. And so. But I don't.

[A]

Oh, you sound like an Indian dad.

[B]

Well, I told you I did like India. I did, I did really like India when I, when I went. But, but I just. In the drive for equality, which is important, we are forget, I think we forget what we're individually brilliant at. Women can do one thing that men can't do, which is they can have babies. And should we not optimize society to help them have babies?

[A]

Yes, yes. But why are Western women. Because this is the big thing. The birth rate of Britain is dropping and it really, really, let's get serious. Birth rate is catastrophically on the floor in this country. But if you look at brown women in this country, we're having babies and we could be poor, we could be from the working class. Immigrant women are having babies. Why are Western women not having babies? And you can't say, well, because the government aren't helping us, because the government aren't helping half the brown women in the world and they're still having four or five babies. I'm not saying the Sikh community, but the Muslim community, they're having babies. They believe in family, they believe in having babies. Why on Western women?

[B]

Okay, I'm gonna be honest. I have never really been a skincare person. Most skincare has always felt a little bit over complicated to me. All the fancy branding and the celebrities and those 10 step routines. And you know what? Half the time I wouldn't know what I'm buying or what it actually does. So when Oneskin reached out, I was a little bit skeptical, but they sent me the products. But they also did speak My language, which is science. The company was founded by longevity researchers and they've been looking at how the body ages at a cellular level. And they've developed this peptide called OS1, which is designed to target those old, damaged cells. They're called senescent cells. Basically, these cells stop functioning properly and contribute to skin aging over time. And they're not selling magic, they're not selling false promises. They're just trying to build products which are rooted in actual research. And so I have been using one skin for the last week. And you know what? It's been working. I like the simplicity. My skin feels better, less dry, healthier overall, and only takes seconds. I don't have to spend ages worrying about this, but before bedtime. And you know what? At my age, honestly, you need to start thinking about this stuff. I can either accept I'm getting old and my body's gonna fall apart slowly, or I can try and take better care of myself. So, yep, I'm going to be carrying on using one skin. So if you want to try it out, you can get 15 off at one skin just using the code. McCormack that is OneSkin co. McCormack McCormack Spell M C C O R M A C K and after you've made a purchase, they're going to ask you how you heard about them. So please support the show and let them know we sent you. All right, let's talk to you about my sponsor, Leden. Now, if you're borrowing against your Bitcoin, there's one thing that matters more than anything else. Is it actually safe? Well, Leden have just dropped their lowest rates ever. But more importantly, they haven't changed the thing that matters most. Your Bitcoin is never lent out, so they're not chasing yield. There's no hidden risk and there's no rehypothecation. Just collateralized loans done properly. Now, they've done over $10 billion in loans and, and they've done this through bull markets, through bear markets and everything in between. And they've done it without ever losing any client assets. So now you get lower rates, which means the bigger the loan, the lower the rate and full transparency before you apply. There's no monthly payments or early repayment penalties. And they give you tools to stay in control from auto top ups to LTV alerts. So you're not choosing between a good rate and safety anymore because with Ledden, you get both. Now you can check out your rate using the calculator at Leddon IO Peter. Well, I Think I think the family unit has taken a bit of a bashing in Western culture. Yeah, I mean, how many times do you see now, how often do you see a film or TV series where it's a family, mom, a dad and two kids, there's no divorce, there's no separation, they're just a normal family. How often do you don't see that as often anymore.

[A]

But isn't that okay?

[B]

It's okay for it to happen. But I think what we're teaching people is that that's what may happen or that's normal life. I don't think we're teaching people about the importance of family because I think most people who didn't want kids by the time they get to their 30s, they think, I really do in 40s, I wish I had. I think we've lost that kind of family nucleus.

[A]

But we have, but that's, that brings me to the whole Western culture because in our culture you stay with family, kids will often, you know, once they get married or kids, they'll live still with mum and dad and even grandparents. We have extended families in our Indian culture, all living in a. You could even be a semi detached with an extension and extension and five cars parked outside. But they're all living together because that's a family nucleus. Whereas in York, in English culture, what

[B]

are we doing wrong?

[A]

I think you're all just separating and you'll go off to London, get your jobs and then mum and dad are still up in Newcastle and then who's gonna look after the baby? You both can't go to work. How are you gonna pay the mortgage? How are you gonna pay the rent? Who's gonna have the baby? Then you end up arguing and you end up divorce. And then also this thing I keep hearing from women is, oh, but I've just got my figure back. I've just got my figure back. I don't wanna spoil it again by being pregnant. Brown women couldn't care less. They will have their babies. There's so much to unpack. I'm gonna get in so much trouble from all the feminists that follow me,

[B]

because maybe you will. But maybe, maybe they're wrong, but then

[A]

again, maybe they're right. And I'm going to give you the other side of the coin because even as someone who did stay at home with their babies and when they started school, I still pick up drop offs. I didn't want anyone else doing it. I didn't get a career. And people say, oh well, that's okay because your Husband was making. He actually wasn't. They didn't have holidays. We had one holiday year, we didn't have five tellies in the house, a Range Rover outside, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We went without because I wasn't working.

[B]

But. Were you committed together as a family? We're going to do this.

[A]

We were, but I think then I was resentful. Then I was a bit like. Then you. You're at home all day with the kids and it's hard. It is hard. I'm sorry. Then I look at. And then I think, actually, they were right. I should have been more independent. I should have been making my own money. Blah, blah, blah. All the list. And I think, maybe they've got it right and I've got it wrong. But when I speak to my kids, what they remember, but now they're 20 and 18, is mum was there for us. She picked us up, dropped us off. She's the one who was there when we got in from school.

[B]

You're not gonna. You wouldn't change any of it.

[A]

No, because my kids actually really, really look back and say, actually, that's what made our childhood, that you were at home with us.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So for that, I wouldn't. But there is still. There's a little part of me that thinks, but maybe we could get.

[B]

Maybe we can get the balance right. Like, the balance is more girls. You can do whatever you want.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, you should have every opportunity in front of you. You should be able to achieve in school, you should be able to go to university, get a job if you want, but just be aware, you've got this unique thing about you, that you have a womb and the womb has a clock on it that men don't have. And if you want to have children, just here's a reality. Because I know we. I know they teach all kinds of weird shit in. Is it pse. Do they call it pseud, the sex education at school? But do they actually teach this? Do they say. Do they give you.

[A]

Like you just said something there that people wouldn't like because you said you've got a womb. And like I said, that's where more than that. Maybe they are.

[B]

They are more than that. But I'm just saying you've got this unique thing, which is a womb. It's unique.

[A]

But they say we don't. You know, there was a survey recently, again, if they asked me now, all the comments, and I'm sure they said, well, actually, most women, girls don't want babies. They're like well, why do we need to?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, that's their choice, but. And I can understand that as a youngster, maybe you don't.

[A]

Yeah, I never did. When I was 14, 15, 16, 17, I was like, I don't want. But no, a lot of my friends did. That was their whole aim in life, was they wanted to become a mother. And when I met my husband, I remember he said, I want four, five, six kids. I was like, I never, I just, I thought one or two and I don't know, I think it's a very hard one. The whole babies thing is, I can see it from their point of view because actually, unless you've got that whole family unit who are going to help you. I don't know how women can afford to have babies.

[B]

I don't even know how young couples can afford to have.

[A]

They can't afford to buy a house.

[B]

No, can't afford to buy a house. Cannot. I can't even get jobs. I went to Sainsbury's the other day and I went to get dinner and a bottle of wine. One bag, 50 quid.

[A]

Yeah, I see.

[B]

And I remember the reason that hit me, I remember my mum used to do the Sainsbury Shop and it was 50 quid, that was the budget. And it was a whole trolley and I was like. And I go through and I came out, I was like, I'm not sure how people are affording life at the moment.

[A]

Right.

[B]

A pack of strawberries, four quid.

[A]

Yeah, I know. Olive oil, coffee, a jar of coffee, butter.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's only when you're right, when you buy a few items and you walk and thinking, hang on, how much was I just charged there? What does it cost individually? How are people doing it?

[B]

I have no idea.

[A]

And then they wonder why people are stealing.

[B]

Yeah. And yeah, I mean, a youngster. So this is an interesting step for you. When my dad was, bought his first house, early twenties, he was an aircraft engineer, he got paid three and a half thousand pounds a year. And the three and a half thousand pound a year, I mean, this is 70s. Yeah, three and a half thousand pound a year. And the first house he bought was 12,000 pound. So it's about just three and a half times his salary. Okay, that same house, not the exact same house, but in the same area. It's a place called Kempston, near Bedford where I live. Same, you know, three bed detached house is now 380,000. The equivalent salary is 35. So we've gone from a house being three and a half times to 10 times.

[A]

And a salary that actually you're not going to get.

[B]

You're not going to get a mortgage 10 times your salary.

[A]

No.

[B]

And so that's why kids can't afford to buy houses and people can't get on the house in there.

[A]

Well, there's not enough houses being built.

[B]

Number one, there's not. I think there's two things. Not enough houses being built. Definitely. And I think the other point is, is that we've messed with the money so much that people, rather than keeping money in the bank like my parents used to save, they bought second homes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so you had lots of generation now. Yeah. Lots of people buying a short supply. And it just, I mean, inflation is one of the things I talk about. Loads we talk about on the podcast and.

[A]

Oh, let's not talk about that today. Well, do you know, I get all this with we can't all be good at maths.

[B]

You don't have to be good at maths. I can talk. I, you know, you can explain things to me. I don't know. I'll explain things that maybe you don't know. And this is why I think in some ways they want us to fight because. Do you know about a thing called the Cantillion effect?

[A]

No.

[B]

So if the government has a budget which is, I don't know, they bring in a trillion and they spend a trillion. There's no surplus. That's the easy version. There's no deficit. But if they spend more than they bring in, they have to borrow money, essentially.

[A]

Yeah, no, no, yeah.

[B]

So that inflates the money supply. And also when you buy a house, because banks don't have to be fully reserv. They print money out thin air. That puts more money into the economy. The richest people get that money first because they're nearest it. They then buy the assets. Everything goes up, gets more expensive, but wages don't keep up. It's called the Cantillan Effect. That is what's making everything so expensive and I think what's hollowing out our country and I think that's why they want us to fight, so they can just carry on. Because inflation is brilliant for the rich.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the bank of England, did they not just say a few weeks ago that inflation will rise again by January 2027 to just a percent below what it was during furlough and lockdowns? That's. But you know who's going to suffer is mine and your children. They can't keep. They can't. How Are they going to keep paying off this debt?

[B]

They're not going to. We when we increase the debt. I don't know if you know this. The interest on the debt alone is more than we spend on education. 140 billion a year. Yeah, I think we spent 80 billion on education. Every time we increase the debt, we collectively we're saying, you kids, that's your problem. Yeah, we want stuff now.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You want to pay for it.

[A]

So where do you think it's going to end?

[B]

Well, so this is kind of one of the reasons I don't really vote Narendra.

[A]

Because then you should vote. Well, I tell you what's so wrong that you don't vote.

[B]

Let me tell you.

[A]

Why do you encourage your kids to vote?

[B]

I encourage my kids to make their own choice.

[A]

You see, so do I. And people think kids must think like that. You know, I went to the Republic march on Saturday, last Saturday. The anti monarchy.

[B]

Okay, and you're in against the monarchy.

[A]

I used to be the biggest monarchy monarchist I loved. I actually remember queuing as a kid with my parents because they were, they came to this country and they were like we respect this country. They needed decolonizing and they came to this country, they did, they needed. And they were like, we're gonna respect. This is the Queen. And my mum used to take me to when. I remember Prince Charles, when he was Prince Charles came to the Findus factory in Killingworth and my mum was like, yeah, and we're cute and we were like in the crowd and when Princess Diana, oh my God, she came and we stood outside the shop and a call went past and she actually waved. Oh, we were so happy. And when she died, I remember we shut the shop. No Indian ever shuts a corner shop. But we shut the shop when Princess Diana died that we were all devastated.

[B]

Anyway, we've jumped.

[A]

Well, anyway, yeah.

[B]

So I'll tell you why I don't vote. I've got this principle is that I think the non vote is a really important statistic. The apathy. So if you see voter turnout at 60%, you know, there's not a lot of apathy in the country and I won't vote for decline so I can run through it. I wouldn't vote for the conservatives because I, I don't, I don't know what they stand for anymore. I could never vote for labor because I'm not left, left wing and. But I also don't know what they stand for anymore.

[A]

Yeah, well even I don't. I'm a Labor lawyer and I don't know what they stand for.

[B]

I wouldn't vote for reform because I think we're still going to get decline. It's just who they're going to point it at and they point it differently. And I definitely couldn't vote Green and the reason I wouldn't vote Green is I actually agree with a lot of what they say. Do you know Grace Blakely?

[A]

No.

[B]

I read her blog a lot. She is essentially. She admits she's a Marxist but actually she identifies a lot of the problems that I say. I think the wealth divide in this country is a big problem.

[A]

Right. But Labour do say. Sorry, Green parties do say.

[B]

And I agree with them, but I think their solution is wrong. And so I couldn't vote for them

[A]

because we're taxing extremely wealthy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that not a solution?

[B]

No, it isn't.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Well, if you run the economics, it doesn't. I mean we are already taxing in this country at the highest rate we have ever done and everything's breaking. So I don't think we have a taxation problem. I think we've got a how we spend problem. And also if you, if you continue to just tax people too much, they leave. There's.

[A]

I don't. That's been disapproved and debunked, by the way. No, they don't. They come back and actually millionaires for taxation. I think it's a group. I don't know if that's the exact name. No, no, they did a survey very recently actually, I think it was two days ago. And more millionaires would actually pay more.

[B]

Oh, I would pay. By the way, I would pay more tax. Oh, so I'm a millionaire. I would pay more tax.

[A]

Oh, I wish I could say I'm a millionaire.

[B]

Ye.

[A]

But if I'll ever be able to say that.

[B]

You will. It comes with. It comes with responsibility.

[A]

So you're a millionaire and you're saying

[B]

you would pay more tax under the right circumstances. So if somebody came to the country with a plan and said we want to restore this country, we want to

[A]

fix it, how do you restore? Tell me about restoring the country.

[B]

So I think the basis of a country's success is based on its prosperity, is based on the economics and the law. And so I'm a business owner, I create businesses. At the moment it's almost not worth it. It's so hard out there to make money because of all the regulation, taxation, and we've become like a managerial state, is it not?

[A]

Is it not? You're not making money because people haven't got money to spend.

[B]

It's both. It's not making money because people haven't got money to spend. Your products have gone up because of inflation, because of Brexit. I can show you a chart on that that disproves that. But we come back to that. But what I'm saying is, is that it's. I know how to run businesses. I've made money at the moment, it's the hardest I've ever seen. And everybody I speak to has got. Businesses have said, it's too hard. But if somebody came with a plan, said, look, what we want to do is in an ideal world, we would move people away from welfare. So we sequence people out of it because they've got jobs. And we would create jobs, we'll create prosperity. But to do that, it's going to be expensive. We've got a period of time. We can't just throw everyone on the heap. So we're going to have to have a period of time where we're going to have to raise our taxes. To do that, I would support that. I would pay more tax. My issue is that I look across government, doesn't matter which part it is, and I see the most unimpressive people making the most important decisions for our country and keep getting it wrong.

[A]

Okay, who were you impressed with? Who do you think? In the past, actually, that's impressive. With money, that is. When was there ever.

[B]

I mean, I think Thatcher did a really good job when she first came into power. To turn the country around, we had to make tough decisions. I thought there was impressive things about the way Tony Blair brought the country together at time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But ultimately I think he was a failure. I really struggle. I don't. There's not anyone. The only person I really like in politics is a guy called Javier Millay who's in Argentina. He's.

[A]

Oh, is that the one with the chainsaw?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why are you impressed with him?

[B]

So I went out there and made a documentary before he got into power and went and witnessed the inflation. They've had decades of inflation. You were with me, weren't you, Kurt? Yeah. And he just came with a very simple view that government's too big. We must make government smaller. We must unleash the entrepreneurial spirit. And since then, he's turned the economy around. And when you turn the economy around, you create opportunity for people, young, whoever, to go and create jobs, create business and create money. And so if somebody came with a plan like that, I would pay more tax.

[A]

Well, Modi's turned it around in India on its way to being the fifth, no third largest economy or second China.

[B]

You're a fan.

[A]

I. You've really stuck me in it there. He's a right wing government but I think he's turned India around. So you know they're making money, people are making. You know there's more millionaires being created in India right. Than any right now than any other country. He's making a lot of money. He looks up for his citizens.

[B]

So what is it you don't like about him? Ah, he's right wing. What does wrong.

[A]

Not. Not because he's right wing. I don't look, I don't know too. I'm not going to go too much on the Indian thing because I can't be doing the.

[B]

What does right wing in India mean? Like is it basically the same?

[A]

I think it's about the same thing.

[B]

Is it?

[A]

Yeah. So I, well look, when I say right wing, look I can be very right when you just said that before and I can be, I'm kind of central. People think left, left. But I just think that in this country right wing is becoming a bit hard. Right. And I think that's problematic.

[B]

But in, in India does right wing, is it still like, you know, there's an aristocracy that you've got. It's a caste system, isn't it? Does it change?

[A]

India's a massive country. Remember it's 1.6 billion.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So there's many different religions, many different castes, many different. And the Hindus do believe in a caste system. I'm Sikh. We don't believe in a caste system.

[B]

But is it maintaining that within the Hindi?

[A]

But I. But yes they do. But with Modi even whatever's going on, people are making money. It's not just the rich making money.

[B]

The people.

[A]

You don't. It's a taxation. I don't know too much about it, the top of my head. Look into it. But he's not taxing and people are just. There's more money at the end of the month in people's pockets and they're spending. It's a massive consumer market. People aren't spending in this country because they haven't got any money.

[B]

And is that money that the government's giving to them to spend or is it money that they're out there earning?

[A]

It's like earning I think because the margins are a bit. Yes. And the margins are a bit bigger there. And I think have a look into it. But they're doing well.

[B]

Yeah. So.

[A]

But here I think right wing is turning a little bit too much hard.

[B]

Right, we'll come back to that because I do want to discuss that because to some extent I agree, but I think what we're doing, the pattern we're seeing here is that under conservative style governments, or more libertarian, you free up the entrepreneurial spirit to go out there and make money and they have more money in our pocket. And I don't think we've actually had a Conservative government in this country since. I mean, perhaps you could argue Major, but probably Thatcher. I don't think the Conservative Party the 14 years previous was a Conservative.

[A]

Really? Boris Johnson?

[B]

Nope.

[A]

Oh, you think because of furlough and how much money they handed out that also absolutely wrecked the economy.

[B]

Well, if you're like, if you're a Conservative, you want low taxation, low regulation, you want as close to free market economy as you want. There, there is a piece of paper between what labor and Conservatives are now. They're both, they've come so to the center ground. So this is a funny thing. Real conservatives will say the Conservative Party or a left wing party. And real labor supporters will say Labour have become a right wing party. I think they're both just center ground. High tax, high regulation, high surveillance.

[A]

High surveillance, yeah.

[B]

They just, they want to get in all your business. And, and this is why I think we've now got hard left option green and that you'll have you met.

[A]

I've met Zach Polanski.

[B]

No, I'd love to.

[A]

He's such a lovely guy.

[B]

I'd love to have him here.

[A]

I really would send him a WhatsApp,

[B]

but I hammer him on Twitter. So if he's, if he's aware, what

[A]

do you say to him? That what, what are you hammering the Greens on that?

[B]

So for example, when he talks about rent controls.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So rent controls always harm the people you want to help.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So this is, this is why I always say, look, people just need to get into the economics. The problem with rent controls are, is you make it less desirable to be a landlord. So what happens? No, you do because you're restricting how much money they can make, but their costs still go up. So what ends up happening?

[A]

Do you know how much they're charging in London? It's.

[B]

We've got that. Forget that at the moment because I agree rents are high, but that's a different problem. But when you put rent controls in you, you reduce the supply into the same demand. So eventually rents actually go up and quality comes Down. So they've just got rid of rent controls in Argentina and rents have come down.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And this is, this is more affordable. Yes. There's a guy, have you ever heard of a guy called Thomas Sowell? If you would read it, I would send you a brilliant book he wrote about economics.

[A]

Okay. But he basically said Peter's going really into the economics.

[B]

No, no, because I think this is so important because I think we want the same thing. We want people to have opportunity.

[A]

I want people to have money at the end of the month in their pocket to enjoy their life a little bit.

[B]

So opportunity to have money, to enjoy life, to not be fighting. You know, we all want the same thing. I think it's done by making the government smaller. Them spending less, taking less of our

[A]

money, spending government smaller. What do you mean by that?

[B]

Well, how did we make it bigger? We do the opposite. But what I'm saying is Thomas Sowell said this thing is that what can happen with government, especially left wing parties, they replace what works with what sounds good. So rent controls sound good, but the economics never works out. And so I would hammer Zach Polanski on that.

[A]

But you could say the same about the right, what they say, but in action it wouldn't really work. Remember Liz Truss and trickle down economy?

[B]

Well, trickle. Trickle down economics is a made up term from a left wing. I think it was a think tank.

[A]

Trickle down economics, I get.

[B]

I tell you, it's even worse. Do you know what we have now? We have trickle up economics. Oh, I've not heard of that one. Well, it's. I'm, I'm claiming it as mine.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

So let me tell you. And I should show you some of my tweets sometime also you should search up when I've.

[A]

You and I've sent me a nasty tweet.

[B]

No, I, I did, I did. I made a funny image of you with chat GPT. Did you? Yeah, where I put you in like a dress of pip. Pineapples or something.

[A]

Did you? You're not allowed to do that.

[B]

No. I didn't get you with your clothes off.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You didn't do that?

[B]

No.

[A]

And why did you do pineapples?

[B]

I don't know, I just did a really funny image. I was just trying to. I was trying to get your attention, to get you on here to talk about.

[A]

You said tea and cake and that was it.

[B]

You said tea and cake. I bought them.

[A]

Sorry, yes.

[B]

I forgot even where I was.

[A]

You said economy.

[B]

So. So economic. Here's a rich person secret Inflation's brilliant for me.

[A]

Oh, well, because then the more money you got in the bank, it gets more interest.

[B]

No, because I don't. No, no, no, no, because you don't get any interest in the bank anymore. Interest rates are really low and they're below inflation. So if you leave money in the bank, it's a melting ice cube. Even if you get 1% interest, inflation's 3% at the end of the year. It buys you less.

[A]

But then how are you making money if inflation goes up?

[B]

Because when inflation goes up, everything goes up. So, yes, the shopping goes up and the fuel goes up. My house price goes up. Oh, my shares go up.

[A]

But no one can afford to buy the house. Or your shares go up.

[B]

My bitcoin goes up.

[A]

You're still making money on bitcoin?

[B]

Yes. What happens is this is. This is the thing that people. I wish people would talk about. When you're in a high flation inflation environment, rich people love it because they keep their money and assets even. Did you even see it during COVID You know, when everything crashed, the stock market still went up.

[A]

Yes, yes. Yeah.

[B]

So rich people, they take that money and they put it into assets and they leverage. What is it?

[A]

They're doing it all on purpose.

[B]

Yes. This is what I keep trying to say to you.

[A]

We know that. We know that. Then how do we stop that? You're a rich person. You do want to stop it.

[B]

I do want to stop it because I think it's viral. If you go and read my tweets, I'll tell you. I rant about this all the time. I'm saying, here's the most.

[A]

What are you so angry about? That you want to change? If you could change it tomorrow, what you're going to change right now. One thing to make life easier for the working class person, not for rich people. I don't have enough of that.

[B]

I would make it. I would. I would legislate that. The government cannot run a deficit. They can only spend the money they bring in.

[A]

But then. Then there won't be enough and we'll really struggle.

[B]

Yeah, but it gets worse. You've got. At some point, it's a bit like.

[A]

And how long will that take until we can start spending?

[B]

I'll give you a good.

[A]

How long is that going to take?

[B]

I've got you an analogy. You know when your husband, you wanted him to stop smoking?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. And he couldn't. He just wanted that one more cigarette.

[A]

He kept wanting it.

[B]

Yeah. Well, if we keep spending, because what happens is the debt interest compounds and the debt compounds and the triple lock compounds and the pension compounds. So the government has to get more money. And when they get more money, inflation goes up even higher. And then they have to give out more welfare just so the people at the bottom just can keep. And it gets worse and worse and worse. And what you end up is like Argentina, and Argentina before Malay, it had decades of inflation, of high plate inflation. People had their savings wiped out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I would legislate that the. It's if. If you went out and spent all your money in your house on new shoes and handbags. Your husband.

[A]

I'm dying to do that, but your

[B]

husband get annoyed, Right?

[A]

Yeah. And if you can't, we can't get it right now.

[B]

And if you've got a credit card, you'll get annoyed. You get more and more credit cards.

[A]

Well, it gets more stressful. Well, this.

[B]

This is what we're doing. And so if we do. And the reason it happens is because every single party has one thing in common.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What is that?

[A]

They want voters.

[B]

They want voters.

[A]

Vote for them. We're going to give you triple lock. Vote for them. We're going to make sure you're still getting your benefits. Vote for them. We're going to make sure your house price will scrap inheritance tax. I'll vote for that party all day long. Even if it was reform. Actually, maybe not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You scrap inheritance tax. I'm there.

[B]

Well, so what's everyone doing?

[A]

Stamp duty.

[B]

What's everyone doing?

[A]

They are buying votes.

[B]

They're buying votes. So they want power and will hold on to power.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yes. Freda at Bastiat was new, though. Well, I don't vote because I think it's disgusting.

[A]

If you were. If you're number 10.

[B]

No, no. And I think that's a problem.

[A]

We don't need honest people, so we're never gonna have that. Peter.

[B]

So there's a really good book. I'm gonna send you a couple of books. Up to you to read it.

[A]

Please send me the book.

[B]

Frederick Basuyat wrote this book called the Law, and he said government should do three things.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They should protect your life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Your liberty.

[A]

Yes, that's correct.

[B]

And your property.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The minute they get into redistribution of other people's income, the morality of those inverse. Because if they want to take your money through taxation, that's coercion. So they're not protecting your property rights. If they want to retain power and suddenly you want digital ID and surveillance everywhere, they're affecting your Liberty. And if they can throw you in jail for, for challenging them and disagreeing them, they're affecting your life. And so the only way you can maintain life, liberty and property rights is by not redistributing other people's income.

[A]

Okay, we're a long way from that. Yeah, we're a long way from that. But he's right, because my husband, we feel as those middle earners, we've been taxed out of our horses. Like, oh, you say one more tax thing now to us, that's it. Well, actually, my husband's head will explode then.

[B]

Why.

[A]

We can't, we can't survive then.

[B]

Did you vote for Labor? I don't mind if you don't want to say I did.

[A]

I'm a. I was a lifelong Labour supporter until it's shabbat. Until Shabana MacMood.

[B]

Okay, interesting.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. She's my 13th reason why. Okay, enough. I think her immigration policy as a brown woman, people say, oh, well, that's a bit racist because the brown woman. I just think your parents were immigrants. Did your parents speak A level English? And yet you're demanding the same background. And I don't think it's very Labour.

[B]

We can come to Immigration.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Okay. But now what are you left with? Your party or Green Party? Because you.

[A]

I don't know, politically. I'm politically homeless.

[B]

But you've been supporting Zach.

[A]

I have because I've met him. I have met Kirstom, I've met quite a few politicians. And Zach is by far the most honest, kindest and nicest and actually looks out for everyone in the room. Like he can be there. There's a crowd around him and he will make sure he knows every. He's just, just, just got this way about him who very much reminds me of the New York mayor. Yes, very much reminds me of that. And look how they're coming after him.

[B]

Well, do you think there's a possibility that someone can be a good person, care about everybody, but not be a good, but not be a good political leader?

[A]

I think that makes him a good political leader. I really resent the fact when people start saying, well, that doesn't mean he'll be good, a good leader. Okay. Boris Johnson, for example, I don't know, Keir Starmer, they're not particularly great in, you know, impressionable communication and being, you know, oh, he's a nice person. But they're also shit leaders.

[B]

Oh, I hate them.

[A]

What made them good?

[B]

I hate them.

[A]

All right. So. Right. That would make him good. Boris Rishi Sunak, great at money. Where was he? He handed out furlough money like confetti. And he's supposed to be the money man. And he let go the fraudulent claims and loans that he's actually just. That's it. It's written off. Cordiland, do you know? I know I. Well, I don't know. I know of people who took six Covid loans, bounce back loans, whatever you call them. 6, 51, 300K. They've got, you know, a Range Rover this or that. And there's. There's also taxpayers paye being screwed.

[B]

Doesn't it feel, doesn't it feel like to you that we are in a grift culture now? Any program the government creates, people just go, I'm gonna have something there. I'm gonna have something there.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[B]

Cars or this.

[A]

But then, then again, then you could argue the other side. Why not? Actually? Because Michelle moan and the lot in the ppe. Yeah, they took their lot. And the rich people who want this inflation, like you said, they're taking their lot. Why shouldn't the ones on benefits?

[B]

Well, then, why shouldn't they? And then you, then you go, how do we have a cohesive culture?

[A]

Well, they talk a lot about this cohesive culture. I don't know.

[B]

Well, we could have had the fight and we've not had the fight. And do you see what I mean? It's like, are we actually like. This is one of my things with Zach Polanski. He has a podcast and he only has people on that he agrees with.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I think if you want to lead the country, you don't lead the people who vote for you. You lead everyone.

[A]

Hang on a minute, though. I'm going to disagree with that because actually, he is said so many times. He's happy to debate Nigel Farage. Nigel Farage won't debate him. He's scared. Zach Polanski has gone on every show, Question Time, Laura's show, all of this. He's gone on every single one to be accountable. And he sat there and he's had every question thrown at him and he's answered it. And guess what? He puts his hands up and says, actually, okay, I made a mistake there. Actually, let me answer that. He has never shied away. I disagree with that. He has not shied away.

[B]

What I would say is that I think under a Green Party government, you and your husband will get poor.

[A]

We're so poor already. I should never say the Indian. You never say we're poor. Because we've got food, we've got a roof over our head.

[B]

You don't like the taxes that have been happening?

[A]

My husband actually was like. He would literally scream if he's taxed a second more, he can't go. It's actually stressful.

[B]

I think they're going to. But it's not even just that they're going up. Wages aren't going up as much and everything's getting more expensive. It's like a triple hit on people that's going to carry on under every single government.

[A]

Why are wages not going up? You know, I know people who've got their own businesses, right? Listen to this. They've got their own businesses, very successful businesses, and they're sat there with two Range Rovers and a Ferrari. I'm not even kidding. This isn't even one example. I know so many. They've got these fancy cars, five holders a year, three kids in private school. And one of them actually said to me, more than one of them said, oh, but Labour's going to put up the wages of our staff. Wow.

[B]

Well, I'm one of those people.

[A]

Well, we. Okay, so do you want me to

[B]

explain it to you?

[A]

No, let me finish. So they're happy to have their three Range Rovers, three kids in private school, five holidays a year. No one's begrudging that. You've got your businesses, you work hard, but you don't want to pay your staff more than minimum wage. Or if minimum wage goes up, we're not going to vote for Labour because we're going to suffer. How are you going to suffer? Well, private school fees are going to. Oh, we'll have to pull them out. Not one pulled their kid out of private school, by the way. Not one. They still had five holders a year. Guess what? They still got the Ferrari or Porsche, whatever it is, they've still got everything. Yet this. Oh, and now, because labor said, pass the bill saying that employees can take sick from day one, all their arms are up in the air now they're just going to take the piss out of us. Wow. So you can keep taking all the money, all the cake, but you don't want to give the cake or even a little bit of the icing to the people who are working for you. And I've got a bit of that.

[B]

So I'm one of those people.

[A]

Yeah. Well, that's.

[B]

But should I at least. Has anyone actually explained it to you? Like why?

[A]

Well, why you don't want to pay people a decent wage.

[B]

It's not why I don't want to pay people a decent wage. Why? I don't. I'll tell you why. I don't agree with the minimum wage. So I'm one of those people. I've got two nice cars, nice house, have holidays, kids went to private school. I'm not, I'm not ashamed of it because I have grown.

[A]

Yeah. I'm not saying you should be.

[B]

My granddad worked on the trains. My dad was an engineer and I've

[A]

just worked for it.

[B]

But I also have businesses. So let's. Let's talk about one. I, I tweeted about this. It went a little bit viral about my coffee shop. They were talking about raising minimum wage to £15. And I said if it goes up to £15, the shop will close. So I'm considered wealthy. But do you think I have a duty, therefore, to run a business at a loss to give people a wage the government thinks they should get?

[A]

But you're not.

[B]

That's just a question. Just that.

[A]

So you're saying just because you've got to pay people a little bit more, Couple of quid more. Yeah. No, that is a fact. It's a couple of quid more. Suddenly you're a loss. You won't be a loss because you've got your two Mercedes or whatever, you've got your five holidays a year and your kids in a private school. How's that a loss? You may be making a little bit less money, a little bit less. Maybe you'll have to take four holidays a year instead of five, but you certainly wouldn't be making a loss because at the moment, by the looks of it, you're making a hell of a lot of money. And guess what? The people who working for you, they're barely making their bills. That's not fair. I got you on that one.

[B]

No, because you didn't answer the question I actually asked.

[A]

I did.

[B]

Let me just go with the question I asked. Just, just. I just want to be clear because I think we've done well here and we've gotten well. But yes, I've got that stuff. I've got a nice life.

[A]

I'm not denying you that.

[B]

I'm just saying the only question I want to ask is, do you think I should run a business at a loss?

[A]

You won't be at a loss.

[B]

But bear with me. Do you. If, if, if the minimum wage tipped the business into a loss, say it was break even.

[A]

Okay, let's say break even.

[B]

If it tipped it into a loss, do you think I should Run the company at a loss to pay the amount that the government says is the minimum wage.

[A]

No, no one would say that to you. I come from a business background. But I tell you what that means. Your business wasn't viable. There's something you're doing wrong where people aren't coming in to buy the products. What? I don't think the answer is actually paying people far less than what they deserve to be and they're struggling while you're still making, okay, let's say break even. What I think is your business model therefore isn't viable.

[B]

Yeah. So do you think it's possible, therefore that the government, through legislation, regulation and taxation can take a business from viable to unviable?

[A]

Well, what I would answer to that is your viable business that isn't paying people an adequate wage. Shouldn't. Like, I don't think that's morally right. I don't. That's morally right. So you can keep making loads of money and you should actually, it's your business, you thought of it, you're giving people jobs. But if those wages aren't actually helping them and they're not actually happy because actually they're still at the end of the month, haven't got any money to spend while you're making a profit, which you should make a profit, but I think you should be paying people adequately. And guess what, everyone's happy all around.

[B]

I think we're just avoiding the question though. And I think this is important because I think this is where we go wrong in society. I think I hate anyone struggling to survive and I hate people not having enough to live on. And I'm not closing down my coffee shop. Right. I'm not.

[A]

Have you got a coffee shop?

[B]

Yeah, I've got a coffee shop.

[A]

Oh, how nice. Yeah, I thought that was just pretend.

[B]

No, no, no. I have a coffee and the majority of the employees are 17, 18, 19 years old. And I'm going to be straight up about this. I don't think I should be paying a 19 year old 15 pound an hour to make a coffee. I think the first job, I don't

[A]

think, yeah, my kids are 19 and

[B]

yeah, I would give zero employment rights to a 19 year old. I would say zero employment rights, zero. I would say I never had it on my milk ground or in a factory and I grafted and I learned. I think you can put somebody into their first job and have them feel entitled rather than putting them into first job feeling like they've got a privilege here and they need to work hard and keep it. But that's a different point. I just want to stick it. Do you think it's possible that there are lots of businesses up and down the country are just scraping by small businesses?

[A]

I feel incredibly sorry for.

[B]

And so do you think it's possible that with more. Sorry, just. With more employment regulation, the NI increases and a minimum wage, some of those businesses will get to the point and go, oh, I can't do this anymore, it's not going to make any money and they'll close down. Do you think that's possible?

[A]

Guess how Indian businesses, Indian immigrants. My parents came and we did businesses and a lot of Indian immigrants are super successful business people. How they didn't employ people, they just got the family to do for free. Sure, right.

[B]

But we want people to work.

[A]

They look. But had they had to employ anyone, even on minimum wage, we still wouldn't have made money because we've been screwed by the supermarkets. Everyone's getting screwed somewhere. My whole. Our whole shop life in Newcastle, 80s, 90s noughties, and we only just sold it a year ago. We would never have made a profit if we had to pay other people. We had to work for free. All of us from the age of like, 8 years old, putting down newspapers. But they couldn't employ someone if they had to employ. And that was back in the day when businesses were making money. We still wouldn't have made money because guess what? Every government, whether it was Labour or Tory, were given supermarkets that give them Sunday trading hours. They were screwing small businesses and small shops, including florists, including butchers, all of them are getting screwed. So I think that actually employ. Get your family involved, then do some way where you can retain a bit of. What I don't think people should be doing is not paying people an adequate wage. Having said that, there's also the overhead. I was in India at Christmas, my hair's been blow dried. Guess how much was the blow dry in India? Tenor Five quid.

[B]

Five quid.

[A]

Five quid for a blow dry?

[B]

What's it here?

[A]

Sorry?

[B]

What's it here?

[A]

Oh, God. 40 quid. 40 quid now, okay. You can argue all day long. They've got bigger overheads, which they do, but who's charging these overheads? Who's charging them? Business taxes, corporate, blah, blah, blah. All of these things. It's too much. No business can survive. Whereas in India, their rent isn't high. They're this. They're not being screwed over, so therefore they can pass it on.

[B]

Why do. Why do you think all those costs have got suddenly so high.

[A]

I don't know. You tell me, you're the business person.

[B]

Well, so councils are in debt. I mean, I talked to you about council soon.

[A]

I can't believe we're talking so much

[B]

about money, because to me, this is the most important part, is that if you replace what works with what sounds good, you can break the economy. And there's lots of dots here. I think once we start connecting, yourself included, we might actually start to try and create a demand within government, what we really want as a country, which is if everything's getting more and more expensive really quickly. Well, why is that? Well, it's happening at the same time when the government's taxing us more and it's happening at the time the government's borrowing more and there's more inflation. Could it be that the problem is the government? And when I say the government, the institution of the government, not party. Could it be that the government is a. You know, it's like a virus that just consumes consumers, consumes more because they want the votes and therefore they promise things they can't afford and then when they can't afford it, they just borrow more. We get inflation.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And why do we need to pay people £15 an hour? Because life's so flipping expensive. We talked about the shopping you don't want, but the business. One of your solutions was, well, maybe your family do it, but that was just.

[A]

I was giving you the Indian model. But actually that's an Indian model.

[B]

But that's one of the three answers are, I can raise the price of a cup of coffee. It's already expensive, so people won't come in and people haven't got the money. Or I can work more in there myself, which means. Yes, but we've raised the minimum wage 15 pound. But how many people lost their jobs?

[A]

Yeah, but then. But then. Okay, then your business isn't working.

[B]

No, it's.

[A]

You need more customers in there. Get customers in there, get them, get. Make a profit. Get loads of customers in there. We have to put wines on for three for ten pound. We had to do somewhere. We had to put something somewhere. Sometimes you do have to put something at a loss. Get footfall in there.

[B]

You know how your husband said, I cannot take any more taxes?

[A]

You can't.

[B]

Okay, so these people running these businesses saying, we can't take any more cost.

[A]

Yeah, but that was the Brexit.

[B]

If you have a cup of coffee. Yeah, you have a cup of coffee. Your first 20, is that right? So that's 20. You don't. I don't know if you know how that works, but you can reclaim that on the things you buy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you charge on there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But you can't. But you can't reclaim it on certain things. Coffee beans.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Milk. So the first 20 to the government.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then throw in your business rates, then throwing your salaries. You very quickly get to the point where it doesn't make money. What I'm saying is then think of a different business.

[A]

No, go online. Don't. Don't do. I don't know.

[B]

Sure. But if, if we can accept that the, the government bringing in too much regulation, taxation and cost of business can take businesses from viable to unviable. Maybe that's why so many businesses up and down the country are closing.

[A]

Oh, they are. They're collapsing. Where I live in North London, that's just closing the small independent businesses who I think we should be supporting. Yeah. And not your big funny, guess what's not closing. Your Lidls and your Sainsbury's and your Marxies. Funny. They're not closing.

[B]

Do you know why?

[A]

Yeah. Why?

[B]

Because they lobby government for more regulation.

[A]

So they're in their favour. So therefore billionaires are running the country. So they lobbying them. No, it's not always in all ways. Not even in some ways. So the high streets are being taken over by your Lidls, your Sainsbury's, all of them. Right. I'm sick of these supermarkets who get away with everything. They're not even paying the correct tax. What about your Amazons? So people aren't right with you.

[B]

See, that's what I put. My point is I think I agree with you on a lot of these things. But what I disagree with is how the government can take a business from viable to unviable by making. Giving you fewer customers because everyone's got less money. Making your products more expensive because of inflation, making your business harder to run because you've got. They put up the minimum wage and bring so many taxes that suddenly you go, there's no money here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's no money here. There's no. I used to have a bar and three, four years ago we made loads of money.

[A]

Oh, I sold it straight after covert.

[B]

Yeah. Sold it this year because people aren't going out anymore.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No one's got any money.

[A]

But isn't it okay, but maybe people have just been more wellness these days and healthy.

[B]

They've got no money, I'm telling you. Yeah.

[A]

People haven't got money. No. I Believe that.

[B]

We watched the drip. It slowed. People coming in later, they were drinking at home and then they were going out one night rather than two nights.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And then, you know, and I didn't have the time to run it, but the point is on this stuff is that then you go, what you said about Modi in India, people have got money in their pocket.

[A]

Yeah, they do.

[B]

Because they've not raised. They've not raised. You're not seeing the dots.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Modi in India is not raising the taxes and people are running the business. Got marked money.

[A]

Well, he's not, from what I know. We need to double fact check this before everyone comes in the comments. He's not his taxes. So you're minimum. Not minimum wage. Minimum. If people are on 13 grand or less or 20 grand, he's not taxing them.

[B]

Great.

[A]

So if you're on less than 20,000, I think we need to fact check it from last that time I looked and that was about a year and a half ago. He wasn't taxing anyone if they were earning less than 20k.

[B]

Have you not noticed though, the correlation here, that the bigger the government gets, the more they tax, the more regulation they do, that life gets more difficult?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. See, you're a conservative.

[A]

Yeah, maybe I am. I don't know. You radicalize me.

[B]

No, let's just. That's why I go on about, I say to people, I don't vote because I will only vote for somebody who comes in and says, we're not going to overspend. That means we're going to have to go without. But by the way, you with the broader shoulders, we've got to take a bit more. I'm like, I'm here.

[A]

Why don't you take the money out from defense and wars and all of that nonsense?

[B]

Well, I mean, I'm anti war. I'm anti every war pretty much. And yeah, we don't. I mean our defense budget isn't too big at all.

[A]

We give a lot to the Ukraine. How many billions. Billions has gone.

[B]

So you don't have a Ukraine flag on your.

[A]

No, no, no.

[B]

You're so right wing.

[A]

Is her right wing. Naughty.

[B]

It's the right. It's the left who support Ukraine. It's the right who's saying, what are we spending money on this for?

[A]

Oh, no, then I see. This is where people always think I'm left. I keep saying I'm not. I think you're my daughter, actually, Mums, you're so right.

[B]

I think you're A classic liberal. I think you're socially liberal and economically conservative without realizing it.

[A]

Well, no, because I don't believe in giving the triple up pension.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

That costs far too much money. So you're scrapping, Absolute scrapping. And pensions need to be means tested.

[B]

I think if the right wing parties weren't so harsh on the topic of immigration and didn't feel like it was full of racist, which you believe it is, I think you'd be a conservative. I think, I think you started, you start, that's your starting point.

[A]

But it's race and workers rights and I do believe that they should be paid. So I'm literally in the middle. I do believe in workers rights. My mum worked in a factory, so even though my dad was actually vertorial his life because we had a shop, she worked in a factory.

[B]

So you say what kind of rights though? Like safety.

[A]

I agree with if the sickness from day one wages. I think people need to be paid more. They've got to be paid more. You can't have a society where they're coming in, working all the hours and you're not paying them a decent wage. And we need a decent wage because we can't afford anything. Yeah, we can't afford anything.

[B]

We're making everyone poorer. Yeah, absolutely. Country is making everyone poor. Let's talk about immigration because. Oh, the big one is the big one. It is, it is the big one.

[A]

Let me hoist my bra.

[B]

I'll hoist my moobs up. I might have a bit of cake now.

[A]

Yeah, have some cake.

[B]

I'm on the level.

[A]

Let's do immigration.

[B]

So interesting topic because we've certainly had a lot of immigration over recent years. You are the daughter of immigrants and I'm also third generation from Ireland.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. A lot of my family.

[A]

You've got a lot of lot in common.

[B]

Yeah, we've got. And also I live in Bedford and we've got a massive Indian community and actually it's very cohesive. Yeah, it works, it works, it really works.

[A]

There's a big Sikh community there, I think, from what I remember.

[B]

Yeah, A road called Tavistock Street. Loads of Indian restaurants. Brilliant. And I never grew up seeing any real racism. It's just a community to call on. People will say to me, more on the right than me and they'll be like, well, it wasn't like that in the 60s. And so as I'm an economically conservative, the immigration topic is one I've wrestled with a lot because. And I tell you why I Wrestle with. When you say you're pro immigration, what is your actual position on it?

[A]

Am I saying pro have. I've never actually ever seen anything.

[B]

What's your view on immigration?

[A]

I just think that it's weaponized by racists because they just didn't like brown or black people being in this country. Because guess what, I've never seen a Ukrainian on a small boat. And I think. And I'll die on this hill. And I think the way that look, you've got the Tommy Robinson, Stephen Yaxley, Lenin Mart on Saturday. Oh, we're concerned. We're just concerned citizens. Absolute bullshit.

[B]

Have you met Tommy?

[A]

No, I actually haven't met him. Absolute bullshit. I will die on this hill. Actually, all you're bothered about is brown and black people being in this country. And don't say, well, it was different back then, actually. 50s, my grandparents came. 60s, 70s, 80s. We have seen the rise of the far right in every single decade. Every decade. My husband's fought them. I've seen the National Front, EDL. We've seen off all of them. I'm 53. We've seen a lot. This isn't anything new. And it's the same pattern. It's the same pattern. I'm British born and they still tell me to get back to my own country every single day. And that's even not even on Twitter. I'm talking about at school, I'm talking About in my 20s, I'm talking about my 30s. Get back to your own country. I was born here and I'm from that 60s, 70s era. And we integrated. How much more can I bloody integrate? Yeah, I've integrated so much I've forgotten my own culture. I have to go to India to get my own culture.

[B]

Walk Bedford or Bedford, come to Bedford. I'll take you for a good curry.

[A]

Right, but.

[B]

Okay, so I think. Do you think there's a possibility that some people are against immigration who aren't racist?

[A]

There is a possibility. It's a really good question because I was thinking about this last night, thinking about when I was going to come on here. And actually some people are just. We're just concerned because there's so many. But even that, right, it's. This is where misinformation comes in. There was a lot of. That was a Boris wave. You got a million. A million people came in Hong Kong.

[B]

It was more than a million, we'll say.

[A]

I thought it was about a million

[B]

a year for like three years.

[A]

Was it? No, no, no. I think it was 1.2 million. We need to fact check that one as well. Yeah, so. So you've got over a million came in during Boris Johnson wave. And that's because, guess what? They voted Brexit because they didn't want any brown or black people in the country. And what you got was no Europeans were allowed to come in the country. What you did get was Boris Johnson allowed loads of Indians and they didn't like that either. That was legal migrants. Legal migrants were coming from India. They cut a deal with India and it was allowing students with their families for up to five members. They weren't happy about that. They were always happy about Ukrainians. 300,000 Ukrainians came over. Oh, were they going to go back? Well, have they. They actually haven't gone back. 3. Were they escaping war? Well, so will the small beats small boats. And when they say, well, no, they're not, they're lying. Well, actually, the majority of asylum seeker claims, the majority are found to be genuine asylum seekers. It's only 25 grand. 25,000 a year on average. 25,000 a year. But you had a legal. Over 1 million. You're saying a million a year?

[B]

I thought it was a million a year for like five years. I could be wrong, but the last five years have been a million a year.

[A]

Oh, wow. You're right.

[B]

In the past decade, it's averaged 600 to 800,000.

[A]

Wow. Right.

[B]

It's a lot of people.

[A]

Right, right. It's a lot of people, but we're not bursting at the seams, so. And all I see from when they talk about immigrants is they just don't want brown or black people. And then they say, well, the criminals. You can't label an entire group of people and say, well, they're. They're all criminals. One or two, of course. Look, I'm not denying people that are saying, well, these people are the criminals that can deport them back. I agree, but you can't label entire. If a white man is. If he's. If he's raped someone, do we come and protest outside your house or outside your podcast studio? Because we're also going to target with the same bush. Right, but when a brown or black man rapes someone, then the entire community gets labeled. That's not fair. That's not right. You can't weaponize.

[B]

Well, I think I'm more interested in parts of the nuances. I've actually been in a refugee camp, so I made a. I went out.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

Yeah. So I went out to Turkey just before COVID started. I Got on the last flight out to Turkey. Erdogan was kicking all the refugees. He was trying to bust them into Greece. So I went into a camp. I met people from Eritrea, Syria, Sudan.

[A]

Oh, amazing.

[B]

I met a. A pregnant woman who was escaping Syria and they were. I think she was from Aleppo. I think there was, at the time there was war. And I just went around and met a lot of people. And I would say in that just it's one environment, I'd say about 10% were fleeing war. The rest was economic opportunity. And that's fine, right?

[A]

I was going to say, I think that's fine.

[B]

Listen, how many people in this country would move to America because of economic opportunity? So it happens. But I think there's a deeper thing which is a really tough conversation people don't want to have. And I'm interested in your view on this. So I've seen a chart whereby I think it was something like in 2002, 2003, this country was, say, 94% white, and then now it's like 73%. So there's like a trajectory of less white. Do you think that's something we can talk about and we should, or do you think, you know, because if it keeps.

[A]

So you're saying, sorry, you saw this chart.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the trajectory is that it's going to be less white and more.

[B]

So by 2060, the white people in this country will be a minority. Do you think that's even a conversation? Can have? Just discuss and say, well, what does that mean?

[A]

Well, firstly, I would question that chart because from. I've seen a chart and it's still going to be the majority in this country. White will still be majority in this country. So it depends on your chart.

[B]

You told me the brown bee will have more babies.

[A]

Yeah, but. Okay, but apparently, yeah, just say, is that a problem?

[B]

Yeah. Is it something we should discuss and say, well, what does that mean for a country?

[A]

Well, look, you've got ethno nationalists saying that. Actually, no, that can't happen. That's, you know, that's the ethno nationalists. Right.

[B]

But I just say, as a country, should we discuss it and say, what does that mean for a country?

[A]

Well, look, as far as immigration, this isn't new. Immigration isn't new, by the way. Everyone's acting like it's a new thing. Right. My granddad came late 50s. Yeah. Immigration's always been part of this country. Always. So if you're going to keep 50, 60s, people are coming over. Indians, Africans, I don't know. All of them. Then why are you having that conversation now? Maybe you should just accept it.

[B]

Well, some people accept some people actually.

[A]

Maybe this country in at one point. Maybe they won't. Maybe it will be 50. 50.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And maybe that's what makes Britain great. Isn't that what Britain. Britain went and colonized half the world, actually, look, this little island, it is a flex. Let's be honest. They ruled more than half the world. More than a little tiny island. Let's give them some bloody credit. That is a pat on the back moment. You went and colonized half the world more. Yeah. Then you invited. After World War II, you invited because you needed workers. This country's always needed workers. Who's gonna do the work? Peter?

[B]

I know.

[A]

Even now you're talking, guess who will take your minimum wage and guess who will work harder. And I bet you you employ more immigrants.

[B]

I don't employ any immigrants.

[A]

Wow. Well, then guess what, there's you. That's where your business model isn't working. You employ more immigrants, they're going to do for less money. Because actually they came from no money. Right. They came from no money.

[B]

I'm not avoiding employing immigrants. They just don't come into my coffee shop and ask for a job.

[A]

They need to then, because actually they'll do it for less money. They'll work longer hours and be more productive. End of. I will. Literally. That is a fact.

[B]

If they do it for less money, I'll be breaking the law.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know then.

[B]

Because there's a minimum wage.

[A]

You just bought my whole thing there. But anyway. No, but look, maybe it's a fact. Going back to your question. Maybe it's just something you've got to accept.

[B]

I'm at level one of the conversation saying, is this something we should discuss? It's like you say, this is a multicultural country. Yes, but some people say I just like the British culture.

[A]

Yeah. What's the British culture, then?

[B]

Well, if you ask me, the British culture to me is a long history of being happy to stand in a queue.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

There's depth to that. The standard queue, the civility, the meritocracy.

[A]

You know, people think, what do you like about Britain so much?

[B]

The humor.

[A]

Right. British humor, British music, British fashion, British this. We're a great country.

[B]

James Bond.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, Cambridge and Oxford University. I think a lot of Britain's culture is steeped in a meritocracy. But also, we had. When we said earlier in the conversation, we're now everyone's getting so ripped off people are just saying, I'll take what I want. But I just think there's some people who think perhaps if we bring too many cultures into the country too fast, we change the culture.

[A]

They said that back in the 50s and 60s, arguments not changed. This argument that, oh, you know, when my dad came into this country, he actually came, five of them, five of my uncles and all of that. And my mom and brother came five years after, after they set up, you know, made a home and had enough money. And they said back then, oh, they come, they're spoiling the landscape. I'll find you a thousand videos today. Oh, the country's changing, we're not. They've said the same thing decade after decade after decade. I'm tired.

[B]

But it has changed.

[A]

Yes, but then you invited them over. You need workers even today if you remigrate. You know, you said you like Rupert Lowe, we need to go. You like some of things. He says if Rupert Lowe had his way, he would remigrate. Even me.

[B]

No, he wouldn't. No, he wouldn't. I've spoken to him.

[A]

Okay, who's he remigrated and how are you going to, how are you going to hold up the social, social services in this country?

[B]

We come back to that because let's stick on this point because I think it's an interesting one because I care about the economics. I would vote for whoever just sorts out the app. I say you can argue about immigration as much as you want. You don't fix the economics, we're still going to have a problem. I think that's where there's going to be a big problem. But I'm interested on the part of this immigration discussion because I'm just not sure you can create a cohesive society with so many different cultures. You can in our little middle class world. Right. It's easy. We've got different backgrounds. Mine's an Irish, yours is an Indian, yours is Newcastle. I'm Bedford. You and I, we can have dinner. We'd have a great time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But people tend to also stick like glue to their communities, who they know.

[A]

Okay, we'll talk about that.

[B]

Yeah. And I, you know, it's a little bit like, yeah, what's the Muslim population of India?

[A]

I don't know. I don't know.

[B]

I'd imagine it's quite small. But the separation of India and Pakistan was based around religion because they just couldn't get on. Right. And they still don't. They still fight.

[A]

No, the separation of Pakistan and India was the British Sure. Actually the British.

[B]

But there is a. There is a wrong.

[A]

Before that. They actually.

[B]

Am I historically incorrect?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I think that did.

[B]

It's our fucking fault. So what are we complaining about?

[A]

Actually, you guys came in and you did divide and rule. This is a famous, famous fact. You did divide and rule. You thought actual divide. Pakistan. Muslims and Indians got on before the British came.

[B]

So they just hate each other after us.

[A]

Yes. Set up and then they separate. So it all happened because of that. Going back to what you were saying. Yeah. Have some cake. But. But going back to that about. Well, actually, this thing, the community is going to hear that one a lot as well now. I lived in Leicester for 13 years.

[B]

It's got a big Indian community.

[A]

Yeah, well, it's got a massive Muslim community. So you've got a massive Muslim community, massive Hindu community and a little bit of a Sikh community. And they did. They had. They had a. You know, they had some fights. Correct, yeah. Yes. But hang on a minute. I lived there 13 years. I've known Leicester because my sister married there for about 30 years now. That was one little secretarian fight they had. I think it was of a cricket or something. I don't even know. Yeah, one out of what. They first came to Leicester back in the 50s, 60s, Hindus and Muslims, they all got on. In Newcastle, my parents, there was a Muslim community, Indian community, they all got on. But staying in their own communities. I'll tell you all why people stay in their own communities, because the English community have never tried to integrate with them. Have you actually gone into a Muslim community or Indian community and gone to Leicester and say, actually, I'm going to go into Muslim community in Leicester. I'll tell you what they'll do. They will feed you, welcome you, cup of tea, food, the lot.

[B]

Oh, that's why I swim to Bedford. I told people this, right? We have really gone on, but for some reason we're not getting on now. And I was, okay, is it a third generation? Is it a third?

[A]

The sectarian's not getting on, though. They are Muslims today and I was in Leicester last week. They're all getting on. I'm not saying everyone's like sitting there with their arms around each other, but you've got Muslims, Hindu community, English community and everyone's mixing. This is a myth, this myth that communities aren't getting on. We're getting on. What we don't want is your hard far right.

[B]

It's not mine.

[A]

Yeah, Sorry, I didn't say it was yours.

[B]

You went, you're Hard far right.

[A]

No, as in your. As in. As a Geordie's thing. I don't mean your far, hard right. I definitely don't mean that. I'm saying that what we don't want is them pointing fingers and they're not integrating. They're not mixing in our British culture. Our British culture. Well, it's my British culture too. And when my parents came over, my mum wore Indian clothes. She didn't wear English clothes. My mum couldn't speak a word of English. But guess what? Their kids did. We then did integrate. So the new immigrants who are coming over, give them a bloody chance, hey? Right? They may not know English, they may not integrate. They might be worrying, but their children will, I promise you.

[B]

So. So you're. You're basically saying that people just have to accept this.

[A]

Okay, Actually, you know what? It's. At that point, yeah, you're gonna have to accept it, because the country needs to run. If every brown and black person put arms down today, put tools down. Put tools down and left the country, this country will collapse. Do you think?

[B]

Well, certain sectors will, because. And actually, I think the nhs, one, the nhs. Part of the NHS would really struggle. Parts of the social care community.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Will collapse totally. We won't get our Deliveroo.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, certainly. Well, so I'm not, you know, I'm not naive to that and I'm not, you know, I'm. When I talk about. Historically, I. I was a Conservative, I may, at one point might have voted reform. I quite like Restore at the moment. The reason I like you voted reform. No, I said I might. I haven't actually voted. Whenever it gets to election, I just end up hating everyone. The only reason I like. The main reason I like Rupert Low and Restore is.

[A]

Yeah. Tell me about this Rupert Lowe thing.

[B]

Because he's. He says he will take a chainsaw to the state that make. Would make Malay blush and make what? Malay. The Argentinian.

[A]

All right, sorry.

[B]

He. He understands the economics. And I just think we live in a system whereby we extract all the wealth upwards through lobbying legislation and inflation, and anyone who will get rid of that will have my vote.

[A]

Okay, Should I tell you why? That's really reckless. I'm actually selfish, Peter, I'm sorry to say.

[B]

I'm trying to make everyone have money in their pocket.

[A]

No, but I understand that and I see that that's quite naive. No, maybe it'll get everyone money in their pocket, but what Restore voters, fans, I don't know what to call them. They are the most Racist. The messages I get from them. Re migration will get you out. Get you out.

[B]

Oh, I've seen it.

[A]

So they're not thinking about economics. They're not thinking. Well, they just want us out. And Rupert Lowe has said the most hideous things. So yes, I get you're coming from a money place and that. That makes sense, actually. That makes sense. Forget all of that in Marinda. Forget the money. Forget the, you know, they want to re migrate the racism. You're going to get that everywhere. I know what you're going to say, but let's concentrate on the money. We'll all be richer. I can buy that. But then I've got to suffer. Somewhere along the line my kids will have to suffer because I guess what would be such a racist country that they'll want to remigrate? Me.

[B]

Yeah, I don't, I don't.

[A]

Or immigrants have been here on indefinite leave to remain. They'll want to remigrate them.

[B]

Which bit is the bit? You do agree? You agree? All elite, all criminal. Foreign criminals should.

[A]

Yeah, I think that, you know, if you, if you come here, you committed a crime, I think. Yeah.

[B]

What about illegal immigrants that have arrived illegally?

[A]

Well, I don't call them. There's no illegal immigrant. The asylum seekers. That's legal. They've. If they've come over here and what, what, what? Listen, I'm not. Open borders. Course. Nobody. We don't have open borders. What's this we don't have? We. Our borders are controlled.

[B]

They look pretty open to me.

[A]

They're not open. People are coming up because they've. It's asylum seekers. You know why they're coming? To run boats. Is there a Ukrainian on a small boat? Right? Because guess what? They were given a visa. A red carpet and a golden visa. Not even a normal visa.

[B]

Golden.

[A]

So not one Ukrainian. And guess what? A lot of them did go to the neighboring country, but a hell of a lot came here and they still haven't gone home. But the reason why you're seeing brown and black people on small boats, because they haven't been given a safe route. What's more important? Oh, the borders are open. Oh, my God, we're being invaded. Actually, what I care about is people are dying. As a country that's supposed to be like world leaders in this world, in this whole universe, we're letting people die trying to come over. What we need to be doing is opening safe routes that we did for the Ukrainians. If we did it for the Ukrainians, why aren't we doing It.

[B]

What's the. What's your upper limit? So if, if so, say we had safety.

[A]

Let's tell you what the problem is. You just need to process it faster. Faster processing. It's the government, right. You need faster processing, more centers, more people who are able to deal with this. And then whoever can stay, can stay. And we need a returns agreement. This all is far algebra. So then we need it. They can go if you're not here. Genuinely. Yes, go. So actually I agree with people, but

[B]

if we had safe, easy ways to get in, like the Ukrainians and next year, 10 million wanted to, would you be okay with that?

[A]

No. Well, no, because we haven't got enough houses, so we need an entire infrastructure. But there hasn't been 10 million. But I'm just saying Labour's brought it down.

[B]

My point being is you would have an upper limit.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So what, what the argument isn't about immigration, it's about where the line is and how you draw lines.

[A]

I think, look, what I think is, I think we just need to be kinder about how we treat people, asylum seekers, if they've escaped war, torture, all of that. And they are. I think we just need to be a bit kinder in how we're treating people. And I know people are gonna. Exactly. So I think we've lost our compassion because the people at the top with the money and all of that, they're pointing. They're the problem. They're the problem. They're just, look, they're coming here. They want to integrate, they want to come to this country, they want to work, let them work.

[B]

I don't think we can collectively answer for every single immigrant because you're going to have a range from amazing people who want to come and build a business and work really hard to the most terrible, horrible human beings. They can go spectrum.

[A]

Right, but. Yeah, but you, but there's. Okay, there's only. When you're saying terrible, horrible people. Yeah, yes, that's that. I don't. That's a tiny percentage.

[B]

Sure. But it's. We're still increasing the. If we have unvetted. It's a bit like, you know, when

[A]

you go on holiday, they get vetted the minute they come over, by the way.

[B]

Sure. But when you, you know, when you go on holiday to America or wherever, you have to show your passport and if you've got a criminal record, you might not be allowed in. Certain people can't get into America. There's certainly, you know, people who've come across on boats who've thrown their parcels. See, it certainly happens. We, we cannot vet everybody or know who they are on an interview. So.

[A]

No, that's right.

[B]

So there will be a risk that some people come in who are. Yeah, it might be a tiny percentage who are, you know, rapists or murderers or horrible pedophiles. And there is a chance they will go on to commit crimes in this country. And so by not having.

[A]

And they have.

[B]

And they have.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so can you see how some people were maybe just like, I just don't fucking want this anymore.

[A]

No, I can't. And I can. You can't deny. Yeah, look, if they. Look, if you get into some abhorrent people and they've committed some heinous crimes, that's like, who would disagree with that could be gone. We don't want that. You're putting our communities at risk. But my problem with that is they're weaponizing a large majority of a certain, you know, fraction of groups of people who stand outside hotels shouting, you're weaponizing one and blaming the whole lot. And actually this is the bigger point. That point. Okay, I'm even going to give them that. Okay, whatever you want to. That's your communities. You want to fight that. Who am I? I believe in freedom of speech. Yes. I believe that we all are entitled to protest. So I'm going to give them that. The problem is they say we want to keep our women safe. Are our women safe? Take all these people out the equation. Our women were never safe. They weren't. We've always been at risk women. And statistically I have a daughter.

[B]

I know exactly what you're saying.

[A]

Have always been at risk. In fact, what the statistics will show you that women and girls in this country are by far and large majority at risk from someone they know, their partner. It doesn't show statistically that an immigrant. They're at risk from an immigrant. It just doesn't. There's no statistic showing that. So if you care about there. No, there isn't actually. There actually isn't. They are more risk by a massive majority by someone they know. And have we dealt with that? Have we dealt with women being at risk by someone they know?

[B]

Not enough. No.

[A]

Right.

[B]

No, we haven't.

[A]

So why are you pointing fingers over there?

[B]

Well, I've got two points of that.

[A]

You can. But why?

[B]

So it's got two points on that. I know you love the. My friend Carl Benjamin and you had a chat. Actually, per capita.

[A]

Actually, yeah, per capita. The per capita 7. I love that one. It's hilarious. Me and Cole got on with the cameras off. People asked me. No, we got on, like I said, in the green room. We found things in common.

[B]

I bet if I arranged for you and Tommy to meet, you would get on.

[A]

Maybe. Yeah, people have said that. And people have actually said that.

[B]

Do you know what I think you could do is understand each other better.

[A]

Yeah, maybe.

[B]

And. But so the per capita.

[A]

On sex attacks, can you tell me about that? Right.

[B]

You know, there is a per capita issue from certain regions of the world with regards to sex attacks on women, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be also talking about the wider issue of protection because our women are at risk in our country. And I agree with you on that. Sarah Everard used to work for me. She used to work for me here in Covent Garden. Yeah. Knew her for five years. Yeah.

[A]

Really? She knew her.

[B]

Yeah, I knew her really well. She worked for me for five years. Oh, my God. And so, Peter, that must have been

[A]

really what happened to Sarah Everard.

[B]

Terrific. Yeah.

[A]

Actually horrific.

[B]

Yeah. She was the most amazing human. I had an advertising agency and she worked for me. And everybody who knew her actually shivers

[A]

at, you know, when I read her mum's interview recently. I can't as a mother.

[B]

Yeah, I went to see her parents afterwards because. Because she worked for us. There was like, the papers were getting in touch, wanting to know things. I remember on the morning my old business partner called me and said, oh, Sarah's gone missing.

[A]

I was like, what?

[B]

So, yeah, she didn't get home last night. I was like, oh, that's weird. She think nothing of it. And then I phoned my mate in the Met Police and, yeah, he told me about what was going. Anyway, look, we're on a tangent here. I think. I think the thing with immigrants, it's not whether women are safe or not, is whether it makes them less safe.

[A]

But we're not. They're not safe.

[B]

They're not safe. But does it make them less safe?

[A]

We're still at a majority at risk from someone we know. The vast majority of sex crimes against women is from someone they know.

[B]

And I'm not fighting immigrants.

[A]

So if you were fighting that and if we're dealing with that, deal with it all. Deal with it all. But don't just deal with the immigrant, because that means that's. That's fake. That's bullshit.

[B]

I think you've. I think. I think you've got a good point. If you're gonna deal with this, you need to deal with the whole Thing. And I think as a society, we do have to deal with the whole thing. I think the way, I mean, I would not let my daughter into the town centre, which I used to go into, because I think it's dangerous for her. And I talked to her boyfriend about the responsibility he has to protect her. I'm 100% with you.

[A]

Yeah. Look, I've got a daughter. It's fear of life for me. Not just because they're immigrants though, because that could be Newcastle and I'm scared for my daughter.

[B]

But the second point I go back to is. Goes back to why I hate the government. Because you say those people will go, look at those over there, blame them, blah, blah, blah. When we say blame the billionaires, we're kind of doing the same thing. We're always looking for someone to blame to say, give us a vote.

[A]

Yeah, that's right.

[B]

And I actually just think our entire government is completely dysfunctional now. And so if you can't win the game to stop playing it.

[A]

Well, how?

[B]

Well, there's 650 MPS in Westminster and there's about 70 million of the rest of us. And if we all refuse to stop playing.

[A]

Oh, do you think. Oh, you sit going down the whole civic.

[B]

I would have a. I would. I think the most important thing this country can do is to realize we are all fighting a state, we're fighting the machinery of a state and it doesn't matter. You put Zach Polanski in there. He might love people, he might be great. He might have some great ideas on renters rights and some ideas he thinks are brilliant about minimum wage. But does he understand the economic consequences the first, second, third, or effects? And could he be in the same situation that Rachel Reeves has been? It's like the numbers still don't add up. I need to borrow more money.

[A]

But hang on. With Rachel Reeves, has growth not gone up? It's actually kind of pretty good. Yeah. I don't know about money and you know about money, but it has. So it's actually been pretty good.

[B]

So the first thing I would be looking into with that is what percentage of that is government spend.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because it could be a significant part. And I would be looking. If it's inflation adjusted, it needs digging into.

[A]

If you don't want to criticize Zach's, why do you not criticize Rupert Lowes who said his would work? If you're saying Zack's. Oh, that won't work. Well, who said Rupert Lowe's would work?

[B]

It may not, but Rupert Lowe is the Only one speaking the language which I agree with, which is not running a deficit, which is we have to get probably rid of the triple lock, which means we have to sequence, we have to sequence ourselves out of welfare. We've got to try and give people the opportunity one to get a job and not have these cliffs. You've got these people who get to 99,000 pound salary. They don't want to go up because they don't earning more till they get to like 125. So it disincentivize people. And so I think we need to sequence out of it. The only thing I, the reason I like Rupert Lowe, he's the one who's saying, I'm going to deal with this, he won't run a deficit. He wants to slash the size of the state. I still might not vote because it still comes to it, but I think we need a people's revolution. Where we go, it doesn't matter. Whoever we get in power, the rich again richer, the poor middle class are getting poorer and we're all still fighting each other. And what I'll say is we can do this again. We should. And if Zach wins, good luck to him. But I imagine I'm going to say, told you so, Narendra and your husband's going to be like more taxes. I cannot see a scenario where this decline doesn't continue until we deal with the machinery of the state. The state just has to live within its means.

[A]

But what's the realistic chances of there being some kind of public revolution?

[B]

I think we're getting, I think we're getting nearer. I mean you're getting to the point now where middle class people are like

[A]

to have a revolution, we've got to be united against the government.

[B]

Maybe it's the starting point is having conversations like, yeah, maybe actually two people who should disagree going, well, what do we agree on?

[A]

Yeah, and that's.

[B]

And I think you and I have agreed on more than we. Yes, we realize I probably don't understand the immigration topic enough and I certainly think when people talk about sex attacks from immigrants, I should say yes. Well, that's all well and good, but what are we doing to protect girls in this country anyway?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I think we have to get, we have to try and meet in the middle more.

[A]

Yes, but I think I agree with that.

[B]

I think your enemy, my enemy, Kurt's enemy, the enemy of everyone is a government which will tell us what we want to hear to get our votes. And then five years later, everyone's life Is worse. Apart from the rich.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Yes, you.

[B]

Yeah. I don't want it. How long have we done?

[A]

A lot. I can talk a lot.

[B]

Well, it. It wasn't. It wasn't the. It's not. I'm wondering what people think of this.

[A]

I know I'm going to be in trouble again.

[B]

Well, I'm going to get in trouble from the right for not put. They're going to go, you should have said this about immigration. Yeah. And you're going to be in trouble of the left. And I just think, you know what it's worth.

[A]

Worth it. Yeah.

[B]

But.

[A]

Yes, it is. But that's the thing, actually. You're right. The left are going to be trouble. You're gonna be trouble. And we need to just be like,

[B]

okay, I don't want to watch people around me suffering. I run a football team and a coffee shop and we sponsor kids football teams and we have a. Yeah, we. And I'm watching people around me struggling and making money unfairly while other people are struggling. It's gross. I hate it. I don't like it. And so whenever I. I just want people to understand the economics. Zach Polanski, I just want him to look, if Zach Polanski understood the economics, Rishi Sunak didn't.

[A]

He did.

[B]

He was terrible right then.

[A]

So this is because I hear so many people saying, oh, well, he doesn't understand the economics. Rishi Sunak understands the economics. And he did.

[B]

As I said here, we've had three decades of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What did I put?

[A]

You said we've had. She. We. I studied because I don't.

[B]

No, that was a different. Here we go. No, no. We've had three decades of terrible governance from the left and the right. Like I'm blaming them all.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know you are.

[B]

We've had decades of this and everyone is getting poorer and they're fighting for. For what they think is the answer, but the state just takes more and more. And when it takes more and more, there's less for us.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And if we don't fix that, it will get worse.

[A]

And so I don't think we'll ever get to Argentina. Argentina. Argentina. Standards.

[B]

Do you know, at the time, Argentina was once, I believe, the sixth richest country in the world? Will you fact check that?

[A]

Was it 17th century?

[B]

No, no, no. When I believe it was the. At one point, Venezuela was the richest country in the south. Have you been to Venezuela?

[A]

No. By the way, what is. What is Argentina, Venezuela like? Do you recommend a holiday?

[B]

Buenos Aires Is unbelievable. I love. I loved Venezuela, but Venezuela is very dangerous. You know, it is run by a socialist gangster. Well, actually he was arrested recently, wasn't he, by Trump, but. So when I went to Venezuela, Venezuela was once the richest country in South America. It's got the law, I think the largest or the second largest oil deposits in the world. They got a socialist government in. I think oil was 120 a barrel and they were giving it all around everywhere and everyone was happy. And then the price for it went down to 60 as it's heavy deep oil and they couldn't survive it, support it. And then it became the poorest country in South America. Millions fled across the border. I've been to the border of Kukda.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Did you make that documentary with me as well? No. And we went and made a documentary there. So these ideas where you can just keep. Keep giving money away, I think it's an intellectual test to people because eventually you run out of money to give away and everyone just gets poor.

[A]

What Trump's doing with what? Well, look, he's. Everything he does is to make him and his wealthy mates even more.

[B]

He's corrupt. He's corrupt.

[A]

Right. Corrupt us. And look what he's doing. He promises war and Iran would be over in a week. We're like in month three now. While he keeps getting richer.

[B]

Yeah, he's ridiculous.

[A]

He's gone through the. We're getting poorer.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's not right.

[B]

No, none of this is right. I mean, my. I've interviewed a guy called Michael Malice a few times. He's an anarchist and he said once you realize and look at the state and you realize that they are rival gangs fighting for control of the territory and the resources, you start to see what it is. And that's all it is. They're fighting for the territory of this country and the resources. And what are the resources when our country. It's the bank of England.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's the money printer. And so I just think how many times are we. How many times are we going to play this game until the country wakes up and go, we're being played on mugs?

[A]

I actually don't know.

[B]

Because the rich love it.

[A]

Yeah, No, I know. Right.

[B]

As long as we're fighting and they keep printing money and they can lobby

[A]

for more regulation, foreign interference into our politics as well. And donors, the amount of money that. I don't think that's right. And there needs to be a cap on that and a stop on that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that's not looking after my interests.

[B]

What would look after your interests?

[A]

Christopher Harborne and the amount he's given.

[B]

Who's that? Is that the.

[A]

The one who's been given Nigel Reform loads of money?

[B]

I'd take 5 million, though. Someone offered me it. Wouldn't you?

[A]

Well, to. To make the rest of the country poorer. Make other people poorer.

[B]

Well, we don't know what the incentive is.

[A]

No, alleged. Alleged.

[B]

He's a crypto. He's a crypto guy.

[A]

Well, actually, Nigel, yes, He's made.

[B]

And Nigel's pro bitcoin, so I support that.

[A]

I actually had a fight with the crypto people as well.

[B]

Crypto or bitcoin? Because they're two different groups.

[A]

Because I think that will actually know. Because you can't regulate crypto and tax them properly.

[B]

Well, you. Can I pay tax on my bitcoin?

[A]

Well, something like that. Anyway, I don't. Like I said, I don't know about the money. Don't do a call, Benjamin, on me. I don't know.

[B]

I'll give you the easiest explanation of bitcoin possible. Do you agree with me? As we create more money, it drives inflation.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the people closer to where that money is created get the most benefits.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Well, think about it like this. Imagine our economy was me and Narinda. We have some cakes. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We had 100 pound each.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We could buy the cakes. Imagine. I had. Suddenly I could print another 100 pound. I can buy more cake than you.

[A]

Okay, that's. So where's that money?

[B]

Well, I just.

[A]

But that bitcoin money, I don't know where it is.

[B]

Well, how much physical money to use these days?

[A]

Oh, my husband always keeps 100 quid in his pocket.

[B]

Yeah, but do you?

[A]

No, never. He goes mad.

[B]

Yeah, but, but. So if I can print £100.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I can buy more cake from you. That raises inflation. That's just simple.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The thing about bitcoin is there's 21 million you cannot create anymore. So if you price. You price my house in bitcoin over the last 10 years, it's come down in price. Things aren't. This is. This is the mind bender. Things aren't getting more expensive. These cakes, if they were four quid each a year ago, five quid now. They actually haven't got more expensive.

[A]

They have. They've got a quit. More expensive.

[B]

No, they haven't. The money's got weaker. The money is buying less. Okay. Technology.

[A]

I'm like this, right.

[B]

Okay. I got a really simple Way technology is deflationary. Okay. So would you agree the, the more we understand, the more we evolve and understand technology, we can make things better, faster, cheaper.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so if technology means we should be able to make things better, faster, cheaper, like TVs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you remember the TV you would buy for three grand ten years ago? 42 inch.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

70 inch.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why is that? Because technology's got better. We've understand technology. We can build things better. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So technology is deflationary. So why would everything be getting more expensive if we're getting better, faster and cheaper at creating it? We should be working 20 hour weeks.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. But why aren't those tellies are getting more cheaper now as well?

[B]

Yeah, but. But generally, yes, we're proven then technology is deflationary with TVs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why is if. Why is everything getting more expensive?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Because we're printing money.

[A]

We're printing money, Dorinda, if we stop printing money, then. Well, how do you stop printing. They need to print their money.

[B]

They don't need to print the money.

[A]

Yeah, they don't need to print the money.

[B]

Well, they do because they want you.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I think we've hit.

[A]

Yeah. We've had a flat.

[B]

We've done two hours.

[A]

I'm. I'm like, yeah, I think people are gonna enjoy this. Huh?

[B]

Do you think people will enjoy this?

[A]

I hope they do. I just. I think that what's going to happen is what you're what? And I love that you're trying to create a middle ground.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I think they're still going to watch this and not see the middle ground and just see, oh, you shouldn't have said this. And why did you say that? That's what's gonna happen. You're gonna be criticized on your end. Yeah, I'm gonna be criticized. And I think that's sad.

[B]

I'll take it. I'll take it.

[A]

I can take it too. I'll take it. But I think that we should be finding more middle ground. I always say, you know, I'll have people treat me. Oh, my God. I can't believe I just agreed with Narinda. Actually, they say that quite a lot because the stars aligned.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

We've all got something in common. Well, do.

[B]

We will do this. Hopefully some other people from the left will come on here now. Now, see, I'm not a meanie. I'm a mean on Twitter.

[A]

Yeah, you're not that mean until I've had four words.

[B]

Well, I've Seen some of your.

[A]

The reason people don't come on, I think is because they think they're going to be edited into some clip and made and that goes out forever. Well, that, the per capita one, that's like there forever. I actually don't even mind because I'm not insecure.

[B]

You learned something that day.

[A]

Yeah, right, right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm not. And I've always said I'm not good at maths. I've always been at maths and, and I don't care if that's out there. But I think a lot of people do care. They've got very, you know, you know, the egos. Whereas I don't care. Put it out. But having said that, if it was too bad, you know, I'm going to tell you to edit it out. It's too bad.

[B]

But I, I, I think there's enough stuff that I would want edited out about me in this interview with Bits where I'll be like, shit, I should have done better.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yes, you would. We'll put it out.

[A]

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

We don't edit.

[A]

Oh, really? No, we let it.

[B]

You sorting your hair out. People won't see the bit.

[A]

I don't mind. I want all. But, but I think there's a. I have to. Yeah. My manager might have a few issues.

[B]

Your manager would. If you, if we're in a bits out for you, I mean, that's out for me. Let's put it out there as a social test and I might even do. I don't speak.

[A]

Yeah, but you're making money on the clicks. I'm not.

[B]

I don't need the money. YouTube doesn't pay that well.

[A]

Just give it all to me.

[B]

The whole thing will go out. Let's see what they say and then we'll come back in a few months and we'll do it again.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

And I keep proving to people that we can meet across the table.

[A]

Okay. Yes. And then let's meet again in a couple of months and then see where we can keep going with this. Let's get to the common ground.

[B]

Get to the common ground.

[A]

Really get there and see. Actually, let's join forces and have a revolution.

[B]

Yeah. And by the end of it, you and I will march down to Downing street with our pitchforks.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Take down the government. Have you got an anti march this Saturday?

[A]

Right. Oh, that's the other thing.

[B]

Have you got an anti march?

[A]

Yeah, there is, there's a counter protest.

[B]

Are you going?

[A]

Look, I don't think my safety can be Assured.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

On the counter one it should be. And I've gone to every single one. I've got a problem with this one because. Because I'm more about the racism. The Palestine cause is important. Of course, it's so important. But I think what that does is then excludes the Sikhs and Hindus. Yeah. And it dilutes the racism. And I'm all about the racism. I'm definitely there. No, no one. No children to be being killed in Gaza, in any war, in any world. But I think it dilutes it. So. But it's not that it's more. I think there's gonna be so much on the Tommy's heart. The police do keep you separate. They're very good at keeping you separate.

[B]

I went to the Tommy one, the last one. I didn't go to the. I went to see it. Well, I didn't.

[A]

I'm sick of people saying that. Even in my own community. We just wanted to see it. What do you want to see?

[B]

Well, so I interviewed Tommy a few days before because I wanted to interview Tommy and it was really interesting. So I met him in the Starbucks over there. As we walked out a seat, guy went up to him. Oh, God, I think he was sick. Gave him a big hug. Yeah, Gave him a big hug.

[A]

Oh, why?

[B]

He said he loves him. Loves what?

[A]

He said that's because the Sikh history of Islamophobia. So you've got Sikhs. There's a big thing going on. People are doing active videos. Why six voting reform. Why do they go to Tommy Rom too much is because they've got. There's a history of Islamophobia, Muslim hate.

[B]

Well, I said to my son, let's go along. But I would go along to one of your marches.

[A]

Well, they don't take me to one. I was at the Together alliance, one family, children, babies. Never any trouble. So I went, why is there trouble at the Tommy Robinson watches?

[B]

Well, I went and there was. I only saw. Well, there's two things. There's a bunch of people pissing on the street, which wasn't good. There was one bit of trouble because what happened is I went backstage.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I met up with Tommy. I went backstage right up to the very backstage and there was. Yeah, look, there was people. There was stupid things the Maori is ripping up. I told Tommy, I don't. I think what he really believes gets diluted with the wrong people there. But I went round the back and there was the back of the stage and then two sets of barrows and was your law and you were in all pink that day, I believe was a very pink crowd. What they did is they.

[A]

Oh, yes, Sign of Jerusalem got pink

[B]

on the banner and they sent a

[A]

bunch of the Tommy ladies there for

[B]

a second down horse gaze, horse car parade.

[A]

You were on the other.

[B]

And they got trapped. And at the front were a bunch of drunk people and they started lobbing.

[A]

That was it.

[B]

They're idiots. Tommy said, you're fucking idiots. You've let us down. You've let down what I want to do. And look, I know what you're saying.

[A]

There's a small.

[B]

They did trouble, and that was on the front of the Daily Mail. But we walked around the whole march. I didn't see any other trouble. Actually saw a lot of good people.

[A]

But you know what? Listen, my answer to that is this. I can go to the opposition march, stand up to racism. Any woman of any color, any colour, any religion can go to stand up racism. And she's safe as a brown woman, as a black woman. We cannot go into a Tommy Robinson march and be assured safety. Doesn't that tell you everything?

[B]

No, it does. Exactly.

[A]

Oh, if I turn up on Saturday to the Tommy Robinsons, I will be attacked.

[B]

I don't think you will.

[A]

Well, listen, I have to be escorted out at the nick. What's his name? Nick Tenchoni. How do you say his name? He does the advance, not advanced uk. Who is he? Part of. I went along there, had six police officers had to take me out.

[B]

Well, so when I was at the Tommy March, there were a lot of black people there. There were some. I don't know.

[A]

No, I'm not saying there isn't.

[B]

I think it's more. They're probably yelling at you because they don't. They disagree with you.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

That's a different point. If you would. If you were Narinder, who wasn't. You did Big Brother, didn't you?

[A]

I did do Big Brother.

[B]

Big Brother. And on Twitter, if you were just like. Like somebody people didn't know, you'd walk through there. Fine, I promise you, I'd go with you.

[A]

But there was an Indian girl that was actually there last year and you probably. I'll send you the clip. And she was not. Not known. She went in there and she was chased out by these six Tommy Robinson fans.

[B]

And then Tommy. Do you know what? Tommy would. Tommy would say, what the fuck are you lot doing? But look, we have these extreme. Even on the left and the right, we have these people on the fringe of the extreme who just cannot control themselves and will fight and argue.

[A]

I know, but Tommy enables it. I'm sorry, enabling. Because people argue Tommy's not racist. Nigel Farage. Look, I've met Nigel Farage. I've actually stuck up for Nigel Farage so many times, actually. And then the left have gone wild at me being on Nigel Farage show back in the day. And I thought, actually, he's all right. He's very. He's lovely. My point is, if you're enabling racism, I'm not here for it. You're putting me at risk, you put my children's lives at risk and you're putting us back. If you're enabling. You may not be a racist, Tommy, you may not be a racist, Nigel Farage, but you are appealing to the racist. And I don't like that.

[B]

It'd be up to you. But if you wanted to have a quiet coffee with Tommy, I would arrange it. I think you two would weirdly get on. I do.

[A]

I don't know why a lot of people.

[B]

I think you will, because I think you're both passionate and you. If you didn't talk past each other and you listen to each other's concerns, I think you might get on. Maybe it'll be up to you.

[A]

I think if we didn't talk about any of that and we just talked about, you know, I don't know, whatever 80s Netflix series would probably get on when the whole country just find common ground.

[B]

Well, the whole country's talking past each other at the moment.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

And we've avoided me now.

[A]

You met me now. And everyone will say, who has met me, Carl included, all of them. No's all right. Yeah, right.

[B]

I disagree some things and yeah, that's fine.

[A]

We can disagree. That's the other thing. People seem to think you can't disagree. It's fine.

[B]

And I think. I think if for me, I want to just get enough people to understand the economics and understand you've definitely got

[A]

the right person on, because I do not understand. Well, I think.

[B]

I think you've got a bit more from today. And if we can get people to understand that, we all realize that actually the whole government's just ripping us all off, then maybe we will get something better, but who knows?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Narendra, I love this.

[A]

Thank you so much for having me.

[B]

Thank you for coming on. We will do this again.

[A]

I'm going to keep you to that. Two months time.

[B]

Right, thank you, everyone. We'll see you soon.