#177 - Rupert Lowe - The State Has Become The Enemy

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Peter McCormack Show #177

Guest: Rupert Lowe
Title: The State Has Become The Enemy
Date: May 21, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this politically charged long-form conversation, host Peter McCormack sits down with Rupert Lowe, Member of Parliament and leader of the Restore Party, to discuss the UK’s declining state institutions, the collapse of parliamentary sovereignty, immigration, economic dysfunction, and the philosophy animating his insurgent campaign. Lowe argues that the state has turned against the people, having become bloated, unaccountable, and ideologically captured, and that only a radical return of power to ordinary citizens can restore Britain to prosperity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The State vs. The People, Collapse of Parliamentary Sovereignty

• Opening Thesis (00:00):
  Rupert Lowe declares that the British state has become the enemy of the people:

  • “The people who lead Britain are bad. The state has become…the enemy of the British people… We’ve got to give the young some form of belief.” (00:00)

• Erosion of Parliamentary Sovereignty (01:48–05:47):

  • Power has shifted from MPs and Parliament to unelected bureaucrats and a partisan media since Tony Blair’s reforms.
  • Candidate selection in major parties (“the Uni Party”) is hollowed out; real opposition is suppressed.
  • “Our biggest achievement was when four of us got elected into Parliament from outside politics…That was our biggest achievement.” (06:03)

• Institutions and Woke Capture (06:18–13:30):

  • Parliamentary privilege is undermined by unelected committees (ICGS); MPs no longer fully represent the people.
  • “It is an undermining… of what I think has undermined Britain, which is this WOKE virus which is spread everywhere.” (11:24)
  • Senior civil service, the police, education, and media accused of being “permeated” by woke ideology and DEI.

2. The Legal System, Rule of Law, and the Bureaucracy

• Dishonest, Ineffective Judiciary (13:30–17:06):

  • Lowe decries the loss of the rule of law; criticizes a judiciary he sees as no longer honest or impartial.
  • Litigation is futile: “My advice to you is don’t bring any civil litigation again until we’ve sorted out the rule of law.” (13:31)

• Regulatory and Bureaucratic Overreach (26:40–29:07):

  • Tax code complexity (22,000 pages in the UK vs. Hong Kong's 500) is cited as deliberately confusing, enabling abuse.
  • “If tax isn't clear and transparent, it can be used in a malign way, which is…what's been happening.” (28:21)
  • Small businesses and individuals can’t compete with large companies able to afford legal teams against HMRC.

3. Economic Decline and Policy Philosophy

• The Managed Decline & Fabianism (29:07–33:32):

  • Labour leadership and the broader political class described as Fabians—committed to slow, incremental statism, aggregation of power, and “death by a thousand cuts.”
  • “All Fabians: Starmer, Streeting, all of them… It's all Gramscian, it all goes back to this EU construct.” (29:50)
  • Lowe emphasises celebration of enterprise, wealth creation, and competition over envy and state dependency.

• Reverse Darwinism & Welfare Dependency (32:55–36:40):

  • Britain has “allowed reverse Darwinism,” supporting indolence over productivity.
  • “We have allowed reverse Darwinism to take over from Darwinism… I want everybody to contribute, do their best and get a meaningful involvement in society…” (32:55)

• The Machine vs. Reform (33:32–34:52):

  • The establishment operates as a machine, but Lowe claims recent electoral victories show real people can challenge it.
  • “[In Great Yarmouth,] people came of their own volition… because they want their country back.” (23:11)

4. Immigration, Integration, and Culture

• Mass Immigration & National Sovereignty (18:17–21:55):

  • Argues the EU project and open borders pursued a “monoculture,” eroding sovereignty, voter agency, and British cultural fabric.
  • “If people come here, they should accept our laws, even though the laws aren’t working properly—we can put that right.” (20:05)
  • Insists on the need for integration, cultural respect, and managed, skills-based immigration.

• Immigration Policy Clarification (67:58–71:22):

  • Lowe is not against immigration but wants it “very tightly managed”—for skills, culture, and integration.
  • “Our paper sets out a plan to deport all those people, to detain and deport those arriving illegally…Illegal means illegal in my book, Peter.” (68:00)
  • Proposes creating a hostile environment to discourage or remove those not contributing; takes cues from Sweden and Denmark.

5. Case Study: Great Yarmouth & Political Strategy

• Mobilising the Apathetic (36:47–41:06):
  • Electoral victory in Great Yarmouth used as a blueprint for nationwide movement:
    • “We brought people back… turnout was up 60% on the 21 local elections.” (37:07)
  • Restore will field community-rooted candidates, aiming to populate Parliament with newcomers outside the “party machine.”

6. Economic Revival, Youth, and Private Sector

• Private vs. State Sector (47:02–49:32):

  • “The private sector, Peter? It’s dying.” (47:02)
  • Government is ‘over 50%’ of GDP, obscuring true economic weakness.
  • Hopes that AI will ‘wipe out’ parasitic white-collar bureaucracy and revive opportunities for blue-collar workers.

• Restoring Opportunity for the Young (74:29–79:37):

  • Wealth and opportunity are locked up in the baby boomers, to the detriment of the young.
  • “We’ve got to give the young some form of belief that their interests are being properly taken care of…whether they’ll have the patience or ability to understand the economic policies we’re putting forward…” (76:00)
  • Calls for deregulation, risk-taking in the City, and policies rooted in Austrian economics; cautions youth about the Greens.

7. Restore’s Economic Vision & Inflation

• Inflation & Sound Money (51:49–54:14):

  • Lowe links inflation to lack of productivity, too much money printing, and the absence of sound economic policy.
  • “Inflation corrects itself if you create the right environment for long-term investment and growth. And then inflation’s not a problem.” (54:06)

• Comparisons to Argentina and Milei (54:37–57:13):

  • UK risks repeating Argentina’s century of decline under socialism. Hopes to emulate libertarian reforms: “I think [Milei] has got the chance of rebuilding…he’s like me, an Austrian school economist.” (55:12)

8. Managed Opposition and Party Politics

• On Reform & Managed Opposition (59:05–61:20):

  • Lowe hints Reform Party may be “managed opposition”—a safety valve for the establishment to avoid radical change.
  • “We’re not in anybody’s camp. We are only in the camp of the British people…a sovereign British nation state…” (59:05)

• Career Politicians vs. Real World Experience (61:38–63:39):

  • Modern politics filled with “student politicians” and SpADs; calls for MPs with real-life experience to govern effectively.

9. Final Vision & Memorable Conclusions

• Peter McCormack’s Challenge (83:53):

  • “All politicians promise hope and change…but what happens to this country if you fail?”

• Lowe’s Response & Vision (84:18):

  • “If I am elected, I will do my absolute best to deliver what I say I’m going to deliver. Now, can I guarantee…the country isn’t so messed up that we can’t solve it? No, I can’t guarantee that. But I actually do have complete faith in the British people. If they’re set free from all the rules, the regulations, the licensing, the lunacy that we've got now…the statism that is strangling us...” (84:18)
  • Calls for “credit the people, debit the Statists.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The people who lead Britain are bad. The state has become…the enemy of the British people.” — Rupert Lowe (00:00)
• “More damage is done by well-meaning idiots than the out-and-out bad. And I think my grandfather was probably right.” — Rupert Lowe (06:01)
• “My advice to you is don’t bring any civil litigation again until we’ve sorted out the rule of law.” — Rupert Lowe (13:31)
• “Britain is a resentful country…we have allowed reverse Darwinism to take over from Darwinism.” — Rupert Lowe (32:35)
• “It’s a hollow mountain, Peter. It’s almost like a false god. It’s not what it used to be.” — Rupert Lowe on Westminster (65:01)
• “We’re not going to reach the promised land on pap. We need a real plan.” — Rupert Lowe (67:39)
• “Illegal means illegal in my book, Peter…If you break the law, that’s what’s called illegal.” — Rupert Lowe (68:00)
• “If I say I think [the triple lock] is probably unaffordable, I think you probably can work out what we’re going to do.” — Rupert Lowe (73:35)
• “If we fail...what happens to the country? I will do my absolute best… but can I guarantee we can solve it? No…I do have complete faith in the British people.” — Rupert Lowe (84:18)
• “I want to reward enterprise. I want to punish indolence. I don’t want to reward it. That’s a country I want to see.” — Rupert Lowe (88:00)

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Essential Timestamps

• 00:00–05:47: State as enemy, loss of sovereignty, media complicity
• 06:01–07:17: Well-meaning “idiots,” undermined judiciary
• 11:24–13:30: DEI, WOKE capture, infiltration of institutions
• 18:17–21:55: Brexit, EU, multiculturalism, immigration
• 23:11–25:28: Great Yarmouth campaign as populist model
• 26:40–29:07: Tax complexity, legal overreach
• 32:55–34:52: Reverse Darwinism, supporting productivity
• 47:02–49:32: Private sector death, impact of AI
• 67:58–71:22: Detailed immigration policy explanation
• 73:35–74:16: Triple lock pensions, generational inequity
• 76:00–79:37: Youth alienation, opportunity, and hope
• 83:53–88:00: Closing challenge and the vision if Restore fails or wins

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Overall Tone and Language

• Frank, often polemical, with historical references; equal parts denunciation and populist optimism.
• Lowe deploys candid, sometimes blunt language (“parasites,” “Fabians,” “reverse Darwinism”), appeals to patriotism and economic realism.
• The tone is urgent, with a repeated call to action for the public to re-engage and “take their country back.”
• At various moments, humor and analogies to football, horses, and even hypnosis punctuate the otherwise weighty discussion.

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For Listeners New and Old

This conversation serves as both a radical diagnosis of Britain's institutional malaise and a blueprint for a bottom-up populist renewal. Lowe’s prescription combines libertarian, free-market reforms, robust national sovereignty, tough law enforcement, and a wholesale challenge to the current political class. Whether or not one agrees, it is a compelling outline of a movement aiming to shake the foundations of British politics in the next general election.

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Transcript

[Rupert Lowe]

The people who lead Britain are bad. The state has become. I said it on your show. It's become the enemy of the British people. I don't think we now have the rule of law. What about the private sector, Peter? It's dying. We've got to give the young some form of belief. There is a danger that reform is managed. Opposition, a free radical from outside is going to win. They don't like that. We're not going to reach the promised land on pap. We need a real plan.

[Peter McCormack]

All politicians promise hope and change. What is different about restore and what happens if. What happens to this country if you fail?

[Rupert Lowe]

Can I guarantee that the country isn't so messed up that it's. It isn't, we can't solve it? No, I can't guarantee that. What we intend to do is try and return power to the people. I want to reward enterprise. I want to punish indolence. I don't want to reward it. That's a country I want to see.

[Peter McCormack]

This show is brought to you by my lead sponsor, Iron the AI Cloud for the next big thing. IRON builds and operates next generation data centers and delivers cutting edge GPU infrastructure, all powered by renewable energy. Now, if you need access to scalable GPU clusters or are simply curious about who is powering the future of AI, check out iron.com to learn more, which is irena.com we're in an election cycle now, that's where we are. We've had a by election up in Manchester previously. We got another one coming. I've, I don't know, through five, six elections and the public is definitely not happy. They keep voting, not getting any meaningful change. Has the system itself become too powerful to even vote against?

[Rupert Lowe]

Well, I think what's happened is that increasingly power has been taken away from the MPs and from Parliament, really, since Tony Blair's change, which he made with Campbell, Derry, Irvin, you know, all that lot, you know, Brown, Mandelson and that group of people who sought to undermine the British constitution. So I think what's happened is increasingly you've got a partisan media which is owned by media moguls who also commentate on this charade. So I think what's happened is increasingly you've had the candidates for selection hollowed out, both for the Tories and for labor, the Uni Party, as people call them. So Blair started it. Cameron obviously emulated Blair and loved what Blair did with Osborne. So they aren't entirely blameless. And then gradually the media has these shows and debates and discussions and people read the newspapers and basically become obsessed with the minutiae of what's going on day to day. And that takes away their attention from actually the fact that their freedom is being gradually taken away from them.

[Peter McCormack]

Bread and circus.

[Rupert Lowe]

It's a circus, it's a show. But I actually now think that the British people. And the most powerful thing I think that happened was that when four of us got elected Interpol from outside politics, that was myself, Tice, Nigel Farage and James McMurdoch. So we ended up being elected in July 24th and that was, I think, our biggest achievement. And then all that I do in Parliament now, and I'm not a rocket scientist, Peter, I know that I'm just a, you know, 68 year old, relatively successful, I think, patriot who cares about his country and cares about the people. He works for him and wants to leave a legacy of a better country than the one I started in, which is at the moment going to be an uphill struggle to achieve that. But I'm, it's not stopping me trying. So I think that was our biggest achievement. And all I do is stand up in Parliament and I, and I speak the truth as I see it. I speak the truth about the Pakistani Muslim rape gangs, which they didn't call them that, they called them grooming gangs. I speak the truth. And by the way, our report should be out relatively soon, hopefully by the end of the month, the early June. So slap in the middle of the campaign, which could be interesting, the make a field campaign. So I think the other thing, you know, I speak about mass deportations and the damage that this indiscriminate immigration has had and that's both legal and illegal. And as you know, Boris was, was responsible, having told us he was going to reduce immigration. It absolutely exploded. And the danger now is that a lot of these Boris immigrants are going to have ILR indefinite leave to remain qualification fairly shortly. So that's going to be very serious. And I think the British people can see their quality of life falling. I see, I see the, the reports today that from the headhunters that unemployment's gone up. There are more and more people looking for jobs, can't find jobs. With all the labor legislation that's been passed by the idiotic Rayner, the Workers Rights Bill. Nobody's employing people. It's not surprising. It's a bit like her Renters Rights Act. Nobody's letting their property because if people don't pay the rent or trash the property, there's very little you can do. And like all these well meaning idiots and do gooders as I call them often, the legislation that they pass has completely the opposite effect on the marketplace to the one they're trying to achieve. They feel good about themselves, they feel virtuous, they feel as if they've achieved something, but in their ignorance they actually damage the market they're trying to serve.

[Peter McCormack]

Well, it's the Thomas Sowell quote where he said, I'll paraphrase, I won't get it entirely correct, but he said the last few decades of Western democracy will be remembered for replacing what works with what sounds good.

[Rupert Lowe]

Well, my grandfather used to say more damage is done by well meaning idiots than the out and out bad. And I think I'm beginning to think he was probably right.

[Peter McCormack]

Well, I mean, look, you've come against the judiciary, the state itself, the media or the institutions. How dysfunctional is it, Peter?

[Rupert Lowe]

It's completely dysfunctional. And you probably know I spent quite a large sum of my own money which I felt had to be spent because I feel that people elect their MP to represent them in Parliament and it should be Parliament that has the power, it shouldn't be the bureaucracy that surrounds Parliament, it shouldn't be the Civil Service, it shouldn't be the administrators of Parliament, it should be the MPs. We should be omnipotent. It's our home and our job is to represent our electorate across the country. And so therefore the MPs are the people's representative and they've been undermined. So the case I fought, which, and by the way, I had the support of Jacob Rees Mogg, who could see that what they had let happen over a period of time was actually the sovereignty of Parliament slipping away into the hands of these unelected people who administer Parliament. And this independent complaint agreement scheme, I believe is being used to effectively curtail debate within Parliament.

[Peter McCormack]

Explain that. What is this?

[Rupert Lowe]

Well, it's effectively a layer of complaint which is possible for people who work in Parliament for them to make against MPs so staff in Parliament can complain. There's an extra level of protection. You're not relying just on employment law, which we have in most companies, and it's been put there so that this body can, in my opinion, control the debate in Parliament. So for instance, if somebody like me stands up and starts talking about things that the people in positions of so called authority don't like, such as talking about mass deportations or such as talking about immigration damaging the country, the fabric of the country, such as talking about, you know, the Pakistani Muslim rape gangs, things that they used to call grooming gangs. Anything that they think is not something they want to talk about, they're able to level accusations at the MP concerned. And I think I caught them breaking their own rules and doing things. It all goes back to the attempted assassination by reform, political assassination of me by reform. And I wanted to basically take them to court cause I thought the way they behaved was so despicable. And I produced this 25 page document that I think is absolutely flawless is my view. And they said, we're not going to see you in court because the ICGS has parliamentary privilege.

[Peter McCormack]

Hold on, don't you have parliamentary.

[Rupert Lowe]

I have Parliamentary privilege is designed to protect MPs on the floor of the House. And the rule of thumb, and Jacob and I discuss this at length, is that it should only apply to organs of Parliament. And that means that they have to report to a parliamentary committee of MPs.

[Peter McCormack]

Well, I think it should only be for people I voted for to have

[Rupert Lowe]

that correct, to protect them if they say something in Parliament which stimulates debate, even if what they say is wrong, at least you have an honest debate and they get at the truth. But no, now ICGS as a result of this judgment by Martin Chamberlain, I'm sure, you know, people say to him, well, Martin Chamberlain's a good guy and you enjoy having a pint with him at the cricket. Well, I don't care about that. He's paid a lot of money every year to be completely impartial and to reach the right judgment. Well, I actually think he reached the wrong judgment. And like a lot of these judgments now, they don't make sense. So he actually his, his crime was effectively by a mission. It's not what he judged on, it's what he ignored in his judgment. And this is what judges can do. So. And this is why the jury trial is so essential to anybody who wants true justice. And that's why they're trying to get rid of the jury trial. It's nothing to do with court backlog. And I've actually been on a jury, I've been on jury surveys recently. I've seen the inefficiencies in which way the court runs. You could easily slimline the way in which courts operate. But the point about this is his judgment means now that a committee, ICGS, which has no MPs on it, which reports to not a panel of MPs. It now reports since Dame Laura Cox's, by design, she ripped it out of parliamentary reporting, it now reports to an Independent expert panel of WOKE participants, including the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards. So it is completely by design, outside Parliament. And Dane Laura Cox actually stated this in 2020. So the JR, I think, should have been an open and closed case. But no, this means that the ICGs can now hear cases against MPs, and they're immune, they're not justiciable, you cannot take them to court. So if they behave badly, if their staff behave badly, if they behave fraudulently or deceptively, there is no legal recourse. And even if in five years time one of them admits that they behaved inappropriately, there's nothing you can do today.

[Peter McCormack]

This is a fundamental democracy.

[Rupert Lowe]

What this is, Peter, this is an undermining. And I brought the case in the names of all my fellow MPs, even though I think they won't give me the data on what flavor of politician they investigate. But I suspect there are more Tory MPs, more Reform MPs, more Northern Irish MPs than there are Liberal Democrat MPs, Labour MPs, Green MPs. So I think it's, it's symptomatic of what I think has undermined Britain, which is this WOKE virus, which is spread everywhere. I think it spread initially from America, but like European rules that we imported here when we joined the eu, we treat them far more sanctimoniously than they do in Europe. So a lot of the time in France and Spain, they ignore all their own rules. We didn't, we implemented every single detail of them in the same way. I think with this WOKE with the DEI and all the rubbish that's destroyed Britain, it's permeated the schools, the civil service. It's permeated, obviously these people who control Parliament. It's permeated almost every aspect of the senior levels of Britain's British decision making. The police, the social services, the schools, everywhere. And, you know, in Parliament. I see it in Parliament because I get, I think the senior police are. And I've got a big battle with them over these false witness statements which, which reform made, which, over which my life was messed up. It cost me a lot of money and I've been, you know, the police basically refuse to even look into it. I mean, if these witness statements even exist. I don't know if they do. But the point, the point is we, we, we have been undermined. The actual people of this country are fantastic, Peter. We've got the best people.

[Peter McCormack]

Agreed.

[Rupert Lowe]

And, you know, I'm in Parliament. The police whisper to me, keep going, Mr. Low. We love what you're doing. And I get the parliamentary doorman. They're fantastic people. I get a lot of the people in parliament. They're great people. The people who lead Britain are bad. That's what I think. I think, I think, as I've said before, that the state has become, I said it on your show, it's become the enemy of the British people.

[Peter McCormack]

Well, you said it was organized crime.

[Rupert Lowe]

I, I do think, I think we've been permeated by organized crime. And the message from this junior, this judicial review that I brought, which I lost and I will have to pay their costs, which is irritating because their barrister was completely and utterly hopeless, incoherent, mumbled, changed their case on many occasions. I mean, absolutely hopeless, but, you know, that's just life. But I think the lesson is, and I say this on your podcast to everybody, my advice to you is don't bring any civil litigation again until we've sorted out the rule of law. Because I don't think we now have the rule of law. I think the Supreme Court is woke. I think it's been undermined by, again, Tony Blair and his crew. I don't think the judges are as impartial or honest as they used to be. I think they've been imbued by a lot of this, this Wokery and this DEI nonsense and all the other stuff. If you look at the backbench book guidance for magistrates, that's shocking. That needs to be sorted out. So I don't think, I think the legal profession's become dishonest. It's become a parasite on the back of productive Britain. So I would advise everybody, do business with people you trust on a handshake, as people used to do. Lawyers are not brilliant people. All they've done is through rule books, through laws, through regulations and through deceit, they have effectively inserted themselves into everybody's lives. And, and now we can't move without getting a license to do something or getting a, you know, some form of government approval through some form of, you know, licensing body or whatever. So it's become lawyers have created regulatory laws, got massive, it's destroyed the city of London as a financial center. We've just done a big paper on that which is coming out soon. So I think my advice to people is be very wary of thinking that Britain is this honest, upstanding, you know, rule of law based country. It's not what it used to be. Not when I was brought up where I think we did have vocational judges who did take their oaths seriously. Who did try and dispense the law. And I know everybody and myself, certainly, I'm sure you've seen it. You get judgments that you think, how the hell did he come up with that judgment? That's not logical, that doesn't add up, that's not commonsensical. And people in the past, they say to themselves, well, they must know more than me because they're a judge. Well, honestly, Peter, my advice to everybody is, and I'm pleased I brought this case because all it's done is underline to me the danger that the entire country is in. And do you know what exemplified it most? And I think, and this is interesting, and we can talk about this, I think the genesis of this was post war. We'd fought two, well, three wars, really, the Napoleonic wars, which we helped win. Freedom, free trade in Europe, prosperity for 100 years. Then we had to fight. The Kaiser lost many of our best people again. Then we fought again Hitler. And I think after the Second World War, Europe had lost her confidence and we had, particularly as a nation, lost our confidence after all these wars. And we're not really, we like free trade. We don't necessarily want to invade other people's countries. I mean, we could have invaded Europe after the Battle of Waterloo. We didn't.

[Peter McCormack]

We could still could. France is looking weak.

[Rupert Lowe]

But look. So I think what happened is there was a plan and as you know, Halifax tried to surrender to Hitler, but for Winston Churchill, life could have been very different. So I think our establishment is not what it should be. I think it's basically, it became very weak. It signed up to this post war European plan. And as you know, I've been an mep, so I've been in the belly of the beast. And I think the essence of it was to destroy national sovereignty, which they saw as the source of wars in Europe. But they couldn't do it immediately, so they had to do it by deceit. I've always thought this, but I'm now absolutely clear, this is what happened. So gradually they undermined the nation states of Europe with a view to creating one federal Europe. They tried it politically, it failed. So they tried it monetarily by forcing us into the euro. And I stood for the referendum to fight the euro. And every time, if you just watch what the hands are doing, as I say, not what the mouth is saying, we kept marching on and they kept getting towards this federal Europe that they wanted.

[Peter McCormack]

Well, do you think this is.

[Rupert Lowe]

And then, Peter, in 2016, what happened is that the bedrock of British people voted for Brexit because Cameron gave them a vote for the first time and they said no, we want our nation state, we want accountable representation in our own parliament. We don't mind having a cooperating group of European nation states. But what we don't want is, is to be part of a faceless European bureaucracy which is founded. The EU was founded on monopoly, you know that the European colon steel community and the whole ethos of it was basically, it's almost Gramskian communism. I mean, you had, you know, Spinelli, you had Monet, you had all of these post war socialists. So it's a socialist construct and it's not a good construct if you're a, if you're a, you know, a free trader like you and I are. It's a very bad construct. But, but it, and it happened by deceit. But in 2016, the British people said, no, we want our, we want our sovereignty back, but we've never had our sovereignty. But. So what happened is they filibustered, they messed around, they, they, they've not delivered what the principles said. We voted for Brexit. We haven't had it, we haven't had the benefits of it yet.

[Peter McCormack]

But do you think this is what's behind the mass immigration across Europe, then, is to dilute the culture of countries, to create a monoculture?

[Rupert Lowe]

Well, I think that's ultimately what's happened. Multiculturalism, open borders, you know, some sort of. They, as they saw it, some sort of, you know, nirvana in which everybody lived together. But I don't think our people want that because they see these people with very different cultures, with very different religions who don't integrate and who are actually damaging the fabric of Britain.

[Peter McCormack]

Well, some do. Some want it.

[Rupert Lowe]

Look, I, I'm not against immigration. There are some people who come here and actually a lot of them support us. People who've come here integrated, they're more irritated about this vast influx now of people who come from very different cultures and cultures which have a very different view of women, a very different view of the way in which they should live their lives. You know, that, that they're not Christian and we are a Christian country now. I don't mind people coming here, contributing and basically getting involved in our country. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But that's not what's happening. If you go to Birmingham or you go to Bradford, or you go to a lot of these places now, then there's no integration. Peter, you've got cultures who are living their lives. They're trying to bring in their Sharia law, they're trying to effectively control their politics. So, I mean, it's not rocket science, it's quite straightforward. If people come here, they should come here, accept our language as we've. I say regularly, they should accept our laws, even though the laws aren't working properly, that we can put that right. And they should ultimately. I mean, you know, I saw the other day a judge who said somebody who'd raped a young girl was given less of a sentence than you or I would be given because he come from a culture where it was treated differently in their culture. I didn't care about that. You live. We live under one law. It should be the same punishment for everybody if you, if you perpetrate a crime. You can't treat people differently because. Or make allowances for where they've come from. So, no, we've completely lost the plot and I think people can see it and the Bedrocker people can see it. So I think if we're going to get our country back, as I've said, and it's happening. Peter and Great Yarmouth showed me this and that was what was so uplifting about that campaign, which was hardly covered in the media at all.

[Peter McCormack]

Oh, we're going to cover that. I just want to get.

[Rupert Lowe]

I want to tell you, on the Friday in Great Yarmouth, it was one of the best days of my life, other than the cup. Finally in 03 when Southampton lost to Arsenal, this was a great day. I turned up. So I was campaigning Thursday, Friday, Saturday. On Friday I was there. People knew I was going to be there. We had 500 people turned up from all over the country. I had a chat from Inverness, chat from Aberdeen, had driven down overnight, offered me a bottle of malt. I said, I'm not taking that, my friend, because you're going to need a nip of that when you get back to your hotel room tonight after driving down campaigning all day, you're going to need it more than me. So we have people from, from Fife, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Leeds, you know, Nottingham, West Midlands, right across the West Midlands. Great people there. I mean, Scousers, loads of Scousers. I, I did tell everybody they needed to keep an eye on the Scousers. But let me tell you, the Scousers are great people, great community people, great nationalists, great patriots. They're good people. And then we had people from right way across down to Cornwall, Devon, you know, Kent, Sussex. We had people from everywhere. Now, these people had traveled a long way. We didn't pay anybody they came of their own volition.

[Peter McCormack]

Why?

[Rupert Lowe]

Because they want their country back. Peter, this is, this is what I envisioned as the only way for us to win.

[Peter McCormack]

What does it mean? Getting. What does getting your country back?

[Rupert Lowe]

It means people getting involved, not bellyaching. Not bellyaching about what's wrong, not writing articles about what's wrong, Peter. But actually, no, no, no, doing something, not the doing.

[Peter McCormack]

What does getting your country back mean?

[Rupert Lowe]

It means fighting for it. It means.

[Peter McCormack]

What are you getting back?

[Rupert Lowe]

Well, you're getting back the opportunity to return parliamentary democracy. We are the home of parliamentary democracy and we've lost it. It's been undermined. So, you know, I, the more I sit in Parliament, it's not what it should be. It's not what it should be. And working properly, you know, our liberal, our liberal democracy, which is what it's always been, is the best place to be. And, you know, a lot of our supporters, you'll be amazed, you won't be amazed to hear, come from. There are people who've left the country and by the way, we are losing a lot of the best people. They're leaving, but a lot of them are supporting us. Because if a party like ours wins and we populate Parliament with people who effectively are from either contributed their communities, they've done something business in their communities, they've experienced in their local communities, they're not interested in party politics, they're interested in the country, they're interested in their area and they're going to represent their area. That's what Parliament used to be. So I've said I'm going to stand a slate of people like we did in Great Yarmouth. None of those people have been in local politics before. They were all people and they're fantastic people because they're brave and they put themselves forward. You know, like Rebecca shepherd in Makerfield, she's incredibly brave and she's, you know, she's put herself up, she's out campaigning, David's campaigning yesterday. Fantastic. So these are real people, they have an affinity with their community and I'd love to see a parliament that's populated by a completely new broom of MPs who put the nation ahead of the party, who basically want the best for Britain. And at the same time, through doing the best for Britain, they will get the best for their constituency and for the people they represent.

[Peter McCormack]

I want to talk to you about one of my new sponsors, which is Monetary Metals. Now, if you're like me, you probably spend a lot of time thinking about sound money and how to protect yourself from currency debasement. Now, for some people, that's bitcoin. For others, it's gold. For me, it is both. But here's the thing about gold. Most of it just sits in vaults doing absolutely nothing. Monetary metals is changing that. They let you earn a return on your physical gold holdings, but they pay it in gold itself, not dollars. So instead of your gold just sitting there, it can generate more gold for you. So to put it simply, if you deposit 100 ounces and earn around 4%, at the end of the year, you're going to have 104 ounces of gold, regardless of whatever happens to the price of gold in dollars. And in a world where fiat currencies are constantly losing value, earning a return in actual gold ounces is pretty cool. It's essentially making your gold productive instead of idle. Now, if you hold gold and want to learn more, check them out at monetary-metals.com McCormack that is monetary metals.com McCormack so. So what needs fixing then? So you, you've talked about the judiciary,

[Rupert Lowe]

talked about the law has to be fixed.

[Peter McCormack]

Is it the law? Is it.

[Rupert Lowe]

Parliament is inextricably linked to the law. Parliament makes the laws. Parliament is the lawmaker. And, you know, like I had, I was at the public accounts committee yesterday talking to hmrc and I said to them, you know, you've got our tax manual. Our basic tax manual is 22,000 pages long, and I won't tell you how many. I mean, I think there's 80 pamphlets with 80,000 pages is the total sort of tax law. But the actual basic tax code is 22,000 pages. Hong Kong 500. So I said to them, half the problem is you don't know your own rules because there are so many of them. So how can the people you tax work out what the rules are if you don't know what they are? I mean, there were loads of gray areas. So really they should.

[Conor]

One of the things that helps them. Sorry, so many ways that you can mess up and they can get a little bit more out of you. I think it's.

[Rupert Lowe]

I said most people want to be honest and pay their taxes, but no,

[Conor]

but I think it's complicated by design.

[Rupert Lowe]

I agree, I agree.

[Peter McCormack]

The whole machine is.

[Rupert Lowe]

It's a case of you move the cups around and you go, which, which cup is the dice under? And I don't think a lot of people know. And even big companies, we were actually talking about big company tax yesterday because most of the tax is paid by the big Companies, but even they, you know, there's clearly disagreement and areas where they've made mistakes. But there's also a big area where there's a lot of debate about what's right and what's wrong now.

[Conor]

But they can also afford that waste

[Rupert Lowe]

a lot of people's time, energy, money, because, again, the lawyers get rich. The lawyers get rich. They always.

[Conor]

But they can also afford massive lawyer teams. Whereas the small man, the individual, it's much harder for them. The big companies are all right. They've got a whole HR department.

[Rupert Lowe]

You're absolutely right. And I, and I think, you know, that is a. And I said, I opened with a quote, which, which, you know, very famous American administrators said, you know, the power to tax is also the power to destroy. And if you, to your point, if you, if tax isn't clear and transparent, it can be used in a malign way, which is, which is, I think, what's, what's been happening.

[Peter McCormack]

Well, I'm more scared of HMRC than I am of the police.

[Rupert Lowe]

Well, look, I get a tax inspection every year, Peter. I mean, I, you know, I, because of my, I think, I think it is a political weap. It is used as a political weapon, probably unashamedly in the past. My tax inspector came from Portsmouth and I was chairman of Southampton. So I then had to demand to be moved up to, up to, up to Newcastle. But I mean. So, no, I, I, I, I. Look, there's, there's just.

[Peter McCormack]

Do you know, it seems to me, I, I was looking at Andy Burnham yesterday and I was wondering, is he one of these Fabians? And he's spoken at the same.

[Rupert Lowe]

He's a Fabian.

[Peter McCormack]

Yes. And he's spoken at the Fabian events. And I was looking at the Fabian strategy, which is slow, incremental.

[Rupert Lowe]

A wolf in sheep's clothing.

[Peter McCormack]

Wolf in sheep's clothes. In slow.

[Rupert Lowe]

They're even eugenicists, you know that.

[Peter McCormack]

I didn't know that. But, but Bernard Shaw was.

[Rupert Lowe]

It was. He was a eugenicist in a Fabian.

[Peter McCormack]

But if, I wonder if by design, it's just. It's been death by a thousand cuts for our country. You know, the, the laws under Blair, complicating everything. The managerial class. I think it feels, strategically what they've done is taken over everything and destroyed and hollowed out the country. But it's given them so much power.

[Rupert Lowe]

Well, they're all Fabians in virtually the entire front bench of Fabians, we're streeting big Fabian. Starmer is a Fabian and a Haldane Society member. You know, they're all. Again, it's all Grampskin, it's all comes. It all goes back to this EU construct, you know, it's. And to your point. Yes. And what they want to do is aggregate power to the state and diminish power of the individual. Why? I want to do the complete opposite. I want to disempower the state and I want to re. Empower the individual. Then things make sense.

[Peter McCormack]

Why do you think they want to do that?

[Rupert Lowe]

Well, because I think they've got this misguided view and if you look at most of the people on the Labour front bench, have you seen any of them have ever made any money or employed people or contributed anything? No. And I think one of the biggest issues Britain's got to get over is this ridiculous culture of envy. I mean, I celebrate success and the Americans celebrate success and Britain is, if you actually strip it back, the most successful place where the genesis of most good ideas comes from. But the problem is we've got this what I call petty class of gnomes who always look over the garden fence at what everybody else does and has got and they actually contribute nothing. But they're a bunch of moaning minis who are holding us back. And I'm afraid that is a large part of what Fabianism is all about. I celebrate success and I think the more successful people we can bring here and hopefully encourage to live here, the more we'll generate wealth, we'll generate happiness, we'll generate employment, because we've got the best people. We've just got to give them the power to pursue their own interests. So I want to scrap iht. I want people, if they've made money and paid tax on it, to keep it. I'd rather the money was in family businesses and in family farms, the backbone of Britain, and I'd rather it was in the hands of individuals than I would the Larry Finks of this world who basically mop up and create this sort of global world from which they profiteer. I don't want that. I want. I want a nation state which is proud of itself.

[Conor]

It's sounding like a green, Rupert.

[Rupert Lowe]

Sorry?

[Conor]

It's sounding like a green there.

[Rupert Lowe]

Do not liken me. Do not liken me to Zach Polanski. I'm afraid we're going to fall out if you do that. I mean, you can't take him seriously. I gather he's even living in a 2 1/2 million pound house, not paying his poll tax or his council tax. So. So, I mean, you know, these people they're all hypocrites, I promise.

[Peter McCormack]

But so it sounds, I mean it sounds like to me that half of the country, let's say is led by their own personal weakness of resentment.

[Rupert Lowe]

I think Britain is a resentful country

[Peter McCormack]

but you've maybe half of it because you've run companies. You know what it's like when you have a bad egg in there. The one who's always moaning and complaining and doesn't work hard and they didn't get the promotion they don't want. Like when you have that in the business you just cut it out. But we're allowing that to govern half the country.

[Rupert Lowe]

Well I'll tell you what we've allowed to happen. We have allowed reverse Darwinism to take over from Darwinism. Okay? Now I am, I am firmly in the camp of the Darwinian. I, I, I don't, I don't want to ignore and not protect the very vulnerable part of society. But equally I don't want to support people who are pork barreling existence on the back of the productive. I want everybody to contribute, do their best and actually you know, make a meaningful, and get a meaningful involvement in society in whatever way they can. But that's not, that's not what's happening now.

[Peter McCormack]

But this is a machine. Now whether it's by design or just the nature.

[Rupert Lowe]

Well I think it is by design.

[Peter McCormack]

Even if it is by design at the moment you're a single MP with some great success in Yarmouth up against this machine which is, you know, we've talked about what it is.

[Rupert Lowe]

Well I think I've made a bit of a difference in parliament so far as a single mp.

[Peter McCormack]

Definitely.

[Rupert Lowe]

I think, I think in Great Yarmouth the significance of that is that Farage said we'd win less than 1% of the vote even in Great Yarmouth, quote unquote about 50, wasn't it? Well we actually, you could have divided all of our candidates votes in two and they'd still have won. And we also won, we also won. We got the clean sweep of county council counselors and they're great men, great people. All men, all their Rebecca's are female. But it takes, it takes bravery to, to stand up, you know, against this machine as you say, you describe it as a machine. It is a machine. So I, I, I, I, I think we have made a difference and it's, it's like a snowball, it's gathering pace and I, I don't honestly think, and I love it when we're ignored by the media Peter. You know, you're you're. People like you have me on and Dan Wootton's been very good and we've got some good independent people who can see that. Actually, you know, we're not trying to do anything other than give the British people a viable alternative to improving the way in which they're governed.

[Peter McCormack]

I'm sure you would go on a left wing podcast as well, wouldn't you?

[Rupert Lowe]

I go on. I don't mind going on a left wing podcast.

[Peter McCormack]

Has Nigel been in here? No. He's been asked and offered and promised. Has Kemi? No. Would you get here.

[Rupert Lowe]

Have you had Kemi? Have you not had Kimmy?

[Peter McCormack]

No, I've tried. You know, we got close but we wanted her in the studio and she couldn't get over. But like make the. They do. They do shows that are smaller than mine, have a smaller audience sometimes which are considered mainstream. But like Zach Polanski, I offered him. I even offered 25 grand to the party. Come and sit here.

[Rupert Lowe]

You've never offered 25 grand for a store.

[Peter McCormack]

Because you don't need to. What I'm saying is it's these people. I don't think they've realized when they win an election they've got to represent everyone, even the people who didn't vote for them. But they won't talk to the people they don't agree with. They won't. They'll avoid it. Every left wing person I've had on here is cancelled.

[Rupert Lowe]

But in answer to your question, I'm excited. I was really excited in Great Yarmouth. Cause on both the Friday probably had 500 people. We didn't have quite as many on election day but it was a weekday. So Thursday probably had 350, 400 from again all over the country. And I've had calls from people who've said to me and I was just. I'm just blown away by it. I mean to find the British people stirring themselves and actually coming and doing something, not talking about it, not writing an article about doing it. And they came and do you know what? They sent messages to me and my fantastic team. By the way, it's not just me. I've got a great team of dedicated people who we all share the same objectives. They wrote and they said they'd had the best few days of their life. Not only cause Great Yarmouth is a great constituency and the weather was good so we had nice sun. Goulston and Great Yarmouth beaches looked fantastic. There was a lot of camaraderie. It was a bit like the Battle of Britain. Everybody was out to achieve an objective. And I think that's what we're going to see in Makerfield. And we're already seeing it. We've got 50 people up before we get to that.

[Peter McCormack]

On Yarmouth, what were the numbers like? My understanding is you kind of crushed the opposition.

[Rupert Lowe]

Well, I'll tell you the exciting thing about Great Yarmouth, and this is a very important point, and when people say we're going to split the vote, it isn't. We're not going to split the vote. What happened in Great Yarmouth is people came forward and voted and participated who haven't. Who'd lost faith in British politics because they haven't heard anybody saying what they think makes sense.

[Peter McCormack]

Well, look at that.

[Rupert Lowe]

So, so, Peter, the, the, the, the Turnout was up 60% on the 21 local elections, right? So we were brought, we brought people back. That's why you mobilize the apathetic. Correct, we mobilize the apathetic. And as you know, Keir Starmer won what I call a land slip election victory on a 59% turnout and he got 35% of a 59% turnout. Now, in the past, British, the British electorate used to turn out 80% somewhere around there. That was a normal general election. But it's dwindled as people have lost faith in the way in which we're governed, in the sort of charade that goes on in Parliament. And since Parliament's been televised, they can see exactly that. No questions get answered at PMQs. You know, the ministers just fob MPs off, they're supposed to answer questions but they don't. So they see that and they've got disaffected with it. Their standard of living has been dropping. But the really exciting thing is I think we've engaged a lot of people now who are quietly actually doing something about it. And I think that's what's so exciting. But you know what? I love it when the media don't cover us, Peter, because it means that the only way people can follow what's going on is to go onto our social media platforms, which is good for you. So it's driven our social media platforms, given us more power.

[Peter McCormack]

It's great for us, great for you. You've got it. If you become Prime Minister, I want the first interview for all of this.

[Rupert Lowe]

I'm making no guarantees.

[Peter McCormack]

Come on.

[Rupert Lowe]

It's a highly unlikely I'll become Prime Minister, but if I do, I'm not guaranteeing anything.

[Peter McCormack]

So, look, this is quite compelling. 46% of the vote. You've taken with reform at 19 and a half. Is it traditionally a very conservative area anyway?

[Rupert Lowe]

Well, it was a Conservative area, but.

[Peter McCormack]

But the left has essentially got 20, what's that, about 21% of the vote. So you haven't actually split the vote, you've dominated.

[Rupert Lowe]

We brought people back.

[Peter McCormack]

So the lesson that obviously you've mobilized the apathetic.

[Rupert Lowe]

By the way, I went east to find real people in Great Yarmouth, okay? It's a proper community, they're good people, they're very conservative. But you know what? They've been very badly let down by the post war elite. I mean, I mean their fishing's gone. Gone wrong. Oil and gas, we've got that nutter Ed Miliband, who's done untold damage. There's still oil and gas offshore. You know, the holiday industry has not, not thrived as people have tended to go abroad because of a strong sterling. I'm just waiting for the pound to fall quite dramatically and I think Great Yarmouth will probably benefit from that.

[Peter McCormack]

But what else have you learned from this? You've mobilized the apathetic, which is great, but you want to scale this nationwide. You would like to make.

[Rupert Lowe]

That's the model which we're now going to scale. And then suddenly this by election came up and I mean, I don't know what you think, but I think Burnham's picked the wrong seat. I can't believe he's picked this seat which is made up of what I call common sense, decent English people. They voted to leave. He's talking about rejoining the eu. I mean, if that isn't poking fun at them.

[Peter McCormack]

I thought he said no, he wouldn't,

[Rupert Lowe]

but he's changed his mind. Yeah, he's basically a massive remainder along with streeting. Yeah, Fabian's Peter, they want to be part of this socialist dung heap.

[Peter McCormack]

He knows that.

[Rupert Lowe]

But the point is, the point is he is using that constituency as a way, as a conduit to further his own career. Now, if I was one of the good Burgers of Makerfield, would I vote for a man who is putting his own career and using me as a stepping stone to further it? I'd go, sorry, mate, I'm not voting for you. You know, I want somebody who's going to represent me. I want somebody who's local, somebody who's going to represent my local issues, my local concerns, not somebody who's trying to jettison himself to Prime Minister and do even further damage. The Labour Party's already done enough damage in its short tenure just under Two years. It's done untold damage. It's so exciting.

[Peter McCormack]

What dates the election?

[Rupert Lowe]

18th of next month.

[Peter McCormack]

Okay.

[Rupert Lowe]

A month's time, literally. What are we today? 19th? Yeah. Under a month. So no, we. And. But we've got going. The troops are up there, we've got leaflets. I mean, my team is incredible what they do. We're a small team, but I. Goodness me. They. They move quickly and we're really excited. You know, the odds were 50 to 1 a couple of days ago. I think they've come into four and a half to one just before we sat down. What.

[Peter McCormack]

Get the odds up.

[Rupert Lowe]

See, they might have failed, they might have dropped further. Yeah. So, look, honestly, I think there's a Battle of Britain spirit and I think it's going to be very interesting because all the reform people who told me relatively recently that we were a complete irrelevant. I think Isabel Oakeshott was rude about me saying I didn't understand the first thing about it. Well, in that case, they've got nothing to worry about. So why am I going to split? How am I going to split the vote? All we're going to find out on that ballot paper is whether they think Restore Britain and myself are more credible than Farage and the reconstituted Tory Party cabinet, which only needs Boris and it's got the old cabinet that failed us back. Yeah.

[Peter McCormack]

I mean, I think Conservatives are quite irrelevant in that by election. I don't know who they've put forward,

[Rupert Lowe]

I haven't seen, but they don't have a big vote up there.

[Peter McCormack]

I. I just think they're quite irrelevant.

[Rupert Lowe]

And the polling we've done up there is. Is incredible.

[Peter McCormack]

I mean, four to one from 50 is pretty good. Conservatives 500 to one.

[Rupert Lowe]

We. Four to one. They are. We've come in further.

[Peter McCormack]

I mean, labor with. And then what are the.

[Rupert Lowe]

Let's have a look again. What are the two to one Reform Mike. That. Well, that's, you know, that's. We're getting close.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah. I mean, they've picked a good candidate. He seems a good guy.

[Rupert Lowe]

I think, again, when the rape gang inquiry comes out, I mean, Mr. Burnham's hands aren't clean on the rape gangs.

[Peter McCormack]

No.

[Rupert Lowe]

Maggie Oliver said some pretty punchy stuff about him. And I think, Peter, my own view is, I think the Labour Party's finished. I think the way in which they've put their own political interests above the interests of white working class, vulnerable girls in our. In their communities for probably 30 years, possibly 50 years. It's been going on a long time. I think they've put power ahead of right and wrong and I think the British people, being a decent people, won't like that. So I. I think when this comes out, our report's powerful and it is not going to reflect well on the Labour Party, and I don't think it's going to reflect well on Andy Burnham.

[Peter McCormack]

Well, there's a certain entitlement that is coming with Andy Burnham running from. Yeah, Extraordinary entitlement arrogance.

[Rupert Lowe]

It's an arrogance.

[Peter McCormack]

It's about the man who voted for the Iraq war, let's not forget that. And he may have apologized, or he may be like Alastair Campbell, who still believes it's a good thing. I don't know.

[Rupert Lowe]

Dominic Cummings had some views on him yesterday. I don't know if you saw those.

[Peter McCormack]

No.

[Rupert Lowe]

He's quite scathing about Andy Burnham as a politician. Well, let's face it, he's had failed attempts at the leadership.

[Peter McCormack]

He spent 135 million to get 2 pound bus fees, which to me is kind of interesting. And that scheme will cost another 200 million pound a year to keep running. And they've seen this as a success. But to me is a kind of fundamental signal that he, again, doesn't understand economics, which I think is the entire problem of the left is they don't understand.

[Rupert Lowe]

Peter, I don't really want to make this campaign about people. I want to make it about local policies because I think that's what's important to the local constituents. But if they're going to make an informed decision, they've just got to look at the facts. And the facts are Labor's doing untold damage to the economy. I mean, just look at it. It's just struggling. I mean, do you see any signs of excitement? And again, as I was saying earlier, a lot of the people living outside want to come back. I think if we get the right formula, suddenly Britain will get all these people back. They want to come back. They like living here. When Britain functions properly, as I've said in the past, there's nowhere better to be.

[Peter McCormack]

Rupert. I've been dialing back what I do in business because there's no point, of course, everybody has. I've had a year of lawyers, accountants, HR and administration. I don't get to run my business.

[Rupert Lowe]

Do you know what? The only thing that's all. It's all got to go really excites me is that I think AI is going to wipe them all out, which I'm absolutely delighted about.

[Peter McCormack]

Yes.

[Rupert Lowe]

Because a lot of what they do as we know is, is it's a prescriptive rule book which can all be loaded onto AI. And I'm already talking to people who are using AI to cut the number of staff they've got. And with all the new employment legislation, which basically means people don't want to employ people, sadly, which, which, which is a pity, AI is going to be used increasingly and I, but I, I think the blue collar workers who I, I think are fantastic people, they care more about their country often than a lot of these white collar workers who are more interested in enriching themselves on, on the back of Britain, they're parasites, basically. I mean the accountants are the same. So accountants, lawyers, all of these administrators, all of these people who are, they're functionaries, they're not wealth creators. And I think the British people can see that. So I think the blue collar workers actually are okay because it's very difficult for AI to replace what somebody actually physically does. It's much easier for AI to replace a rule book because it can all be loaded onto the computer and actually the computer's better at it than they are. So I'm excited about that and I think they are going to be. Their power is probably again at its maximum, as I called them. They are parasites. They feed off the host animal and unfortunately the host animal is nearly, it's dying, you know. And the reason the economy doesn't look weak is because government now accounts for over 50% of GDP. And if you pump money into government, which what's been happening, it's hardly surprising that GDP goes up a bit.

[Peter McCormack]

But what is the cost of that?

[Rupert Lowe]

What about the private sector, Peter? It's dying.

[Peter McCormack]

It's dying.

[Rupert Lowe]

It is dying.

[Peter McCormack]

It is not good out there. And I speak to a lot of people who've lost their jobs or their businesses are struggling or other people who can't be bothered. People are looking to move abroad. I don't think people realize how desperate state it is for the private sector at the moment.

[Rupert Lowe]

It's madness. And we're about to produce a big document on energy and net zero again. And my favorite saying, whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad. And don't tell me Ed Miliband isn't completely and utterly off the wall. I mean, here we are with some of the richest geological structures on earth and what are we doing? We're buying our oil from Norway, whose geological structures are in the same geological structure as ours, and we're buying it from over the border. We think that's okay. But we're letting Aberdeen die. We're not prospecting some of our richest remaining grounds off Shetland. We're not, we're not exploiting our existing reserves that technology is allowing us to get more oil and gas out of. We're not fracking, which we could be doing, which actually does less damage to the environment than putting up wind farms and solar farms everywhere. So, look, we have gone definitively bonkers. And our paper is the first part of a foundation, I think, which shows people that we do have a plan and we do have an understanding of what needs to be done. And the second key paper, which is nearly complete is our economic paper, which I've been working on with some fantastic people. So we. And by the way, Peter, you've said you're going to help us with our crypto paper, but I haven't seen much come out of the sausage machine yet.

[Peter McCormack]

Well, so I appreciate the offer and that you were asking. I mean, to me it would be a bitcoin paper. I'm not going to write it because I think I should have some independence. Bitcoin is just a lens for a failed economy. If you have a good structural government, you don't actually need bitcoin. Bitcoin is there as a lifeboat for what's wrong with government debate.

[Rupert Lowe]

Coin and gold, they go.

[Peter McCormack]

Yes. Not that XRP stuff that you had before.

[Rupert Lowe]

Well, I've still got the xrp. I didn't sell it.

[Peter McCormack]

You've got to turn that a bit.

[Rupert Lowe]

That was my, that was my induction into crypto. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not from the crypto age, but I can see the logic and I can see why bitcoin is the reserve cryptocurrency off which everything else will be leveraged. I think, I think, I think you're, I can see the logic of what you say. I think bitcoin is the reserve currency of, of crypto.

[Peter McCormack]

So bit. Bitcoin is restore. XRP is the Greens.

[Rupert Lowe]

Is it? What's reform?

[Peter McCormack]

Reform is ethereum. Reform is ethereum.

[Rupert Lowe]

You can print as much as you want.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah, okay, so look, the, the economics is, is where you get me. I just look at the foundation of a country as economics.

[Rupert Lowe]

And all we've talked about, economics is my game. So we've got, I think, a great paper coming out and we're going to put it into PowerPoint as well. And hopefully people, we can make it understandable. So I think that with the energy paper are the two key building blocks. Obviously, we've Got a regulatory paper which is going to show how we need to revive the City of London, which is how we finance our nascent businesses. So rather than our best inventions being bought by other countries, which they're being at an increasing rate. So, you know, a lot of them, the Oxford startups, the Cambridge startups, they go straight out to America, of course, so we lose. It's all very well to invent it, but actually the wealth creation effect cascades down when you actually exploit it, not when you think of it. So we need to capture that entire chain, if we can. We need to bring back our best brains and we need to then help them build the country. And that, that way, that way we can actually positively, rather than this envy nonsense and all the other sort of fetters that are holding everybody back, we just got to get rid of all that and let people live their lives, build their businesses, you know, and continue to pass that wealth down. Because, as you know, wealth, wealth creates wealth. And as Lincoln said, you don't make the poor richer by making the rich poorer, of course. And that, again, is a very simple line, which is a truism. And the more people you've got who are rich, who see opportunity, are prepared to take risk, the more wealth gets created here. And I'm interested in creating wealth in this. Britain as a sovereign nation state, that's what's always. Look at what I've done, look at what I've worked on, look at what I've always been involved in. I want an accountable British nation state which accepts the fact that it's not the master of the people, it's the servant of the people.

[Peter McCormack]

But do you have a plan specifically to deal with inflation? Inflation, to me is a cancer that is eaten away our country. It's leading to wage compression, it's leading to the affordability crisis. It is, to me, widening the wealth gap. I benefit from inflation. It's great for me. I'm an asset holder. Do you have a direct plan to balance the book so we do not have this continual printing of money?

[Rupert Lowe]

Well, again, I've always thought that a strong currency is very good for a population because it keeps people honest. And if you look at Germany, when she had the Deutsche mark, the Deutsche mark used to go up every year. Look at the Swiss franc. But I mean the Deutsche mark, because Germany was actually a true manufacturing economy. I think she's actually in quite a lot of trouble at the moment because I think technology is leaving her behind and I think her people are, whilst they're very Good engineers. And they're very structured and organized. I'm not sure they're that flexible. So I think, I think Germany is an example. So each year Germany's currency used to go up, so she had to be more and more efficient. So inflation is fundamentally an issue of productivity. And if you don't produce anything and you don't actually trade properly and you don't respect what Maggie used to call good housekeeping, the only way to balance your books is basically to print money. And that's why Italy's currency used to depreciate, because she wasn't productive and you know, she didn't care that much about the rule books. And so, but, but you know, the currencies were appreciating and depreciating currencies were like a protective spring. So the more productive you were on the whole, your currency should appreciate because if you make more or export more, you end up with more of other people's currency. And they've got a choice. They either buy the bonds of that currency and allow them to fund it through debt, or they sell the currency and convert to their own currency, which drives their currency up. So it's a naturally self correcting mechanism. So I think in answer your question, inflation, it corrects itself if you create the right environment for long term investment and growth. And then inflation's not a problem.

[Peter McCormack]

Which by the way, doesn't seem like a difficult thing. It's not difficult as long as you aren't requiring a dependent class to vote for you.

[Rupert Lowe]

But if you're, if you're managed and run by a bunch of rabid Fabians whose agenda is, is, is, is not logical, then in the end you're going to hit the buffers.

[Peter McCormack]

I've heard Milei talk about sequencing of what he did was important because they did have a dependent class. And you can't just turn off the welfare tap straight away. You can't just turn everything off. Is that, is that something that. Well, let me go back a step.

[Rupert Lowe]

Even before Javier, great guy. Yeah, I mean, we're in touch with his office. He.

[Peter McCormack]

Great.

[Rupert Lowe]

He's monitoring what we do. He follows us on X. Yes, and I've spoken to his team, I've said to him, any help you can give us. Great. So look, there are some, there are some good people out there. And by the way, Argentina is your example. She had a hundred years of Fabianism and failure and socialism. Her average wage is something like $15,000. And you've now got a population that wants to work because it's had enough of being indolent and being under the thumb of the state.

[Peter McCormack]

Well, this.

[Rupert Lowe]

So I actually think. I think he's. He's got the chance of rebuilding. I mean, he needed a bit of help because he, if you remember, started well, settled back, the Americans helped them, and hopefully it'll go again. I'm pretty sure it will. I don't know if you've been to Argentina, but it's an incredibly rich country.

[Peter McCormack]

So Kurt and I went out and made a documentary there just before he got elected.

[Rupert Lowe]

We interviewed Buenos Aires.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah, we interviewed his economics advisor.

[Rupert Lowe]

Did you go out to Cordoba and places like that?

[Conor]

I can't remember.

[Peter McCormack]

We went somewhere and I rode a horse.

[Rupert Lowe]

I mean, Cordoba is just unbelievable.

[Peter McCormack]

We had. We had Malbec for breakfast.

[Rupert Lowe]

Oh, did you?

[Peter McCormack]

It was. We had Malbec and steak for breakfast.

[Rupert Lowe]

They tend to like Malbec and steak.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah.

[Rupert Lowe]

And then. And then usually have a siesta after that.

[Peter McCormack]

And then we rode a horse. And the guy said to me, he said, in Argentina, we say there are two things that are true. The sun rises and inflation.

[Rupert Lowe]

It's. They haven't had it since Millay's been in power. I think if you go against, it's socialism that's destroyed Argentina because it was one of the richest countries on Earth in. In. In 1900-1920, the sixth, I believe. I think it was. It was very rich. And it is rich. If you look, as I say, go to Cordoba, you've got basically some of the most fertile farmland in the world. And they double crop and grow the most incredible amount of. Of agricultural produce. So, you know, they've got a wonderful coastline. You've got sort of right the way down to Patagonia. They've got natural resources, they've got space. Look, it's, It's. It's an amazing country, but it's been. It's usually. It's usually misguided people who do the damage. Peter and I, I think they have for a long time had misguided people running them. They're fortunate to have Milei, who I think is very brave. He's like me, an Austrian school economist. He's very clear in what he wants to achieve. And he, like me, wants to see less state and more families, more structure, more power to the individual. And then society starts to make sense.

[Peter McCormack]

Well, more families is a really important

[Rupert Lowe]

point because family, community, you know, all that stuff.

[Peter McCormack]

And to lead up to that, because you said earlier and I said, when you're a prime minister, I won the first interview and you said, I'm not sure if I want to be. Or did you say, I'm not sure if I will be? But isn't the goal of this.

[Rupert Lowe]

Have you seen what I said? I'm not sure. I mean, by no means definitely you were jesting, I think, Peter.

[Peter McCormack]

But more to the point is, isn't the point.

[Rupert Lowe]

We might be 4 to 1 in Makerfield, but I'm not sure I'm that high up yet on the prime ministerial stakes.

[Peter McCormack]

Things can move quickly. Movements can happen quickly. Zach Polanski did it here, Milei did it there, Bukele did it in El Salvador. If you have a message that resonates with enough people, it can move quickly, especially in the social media.

[Rupert Lowe]

Bukele runs a pretty tight ship now.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah, you, you have, you're probably the most successful MP on Twitter right now. When you reply to one of my posts, it just blows up. And so there is a message that is resonating but isn't. The ultimate goal here is for you to win a general election in three years and restore.

[Rupert Lowe]

Well, it's not me, Peter. The whole essence of this is he's got to be a. A joint effort between me and the public. The public have got to get involved. My message is it's not going to happen if they sit back on their sofas with their can of Heineken or whatever they drink or glass of Malbec or whatever you. Whatever.

[Peter McCormack]

This is the goal though, to win the election.

[Rupert Lowe]

They've got to stir themselves and get involved. Because honestly, do you know what? It's, it's, it's lack of, it's a lack of interest that actually allows these malign philosophies to grow. What we need, what they try and do is get people to disengage. What's so exciting? We're getting people to re. Engage.

[Peter McCormack]

You're 25 to 1.

[Rupert Lowe]

That's what we need. We need people to re engage.

[Peter McCormack]

But the goal is, is that restore to be the party that wins an election in three years or some political movement which is based on the ideas that you have.

[Rupert Lowe]

Well, look, people accuse us of being all sorts of stuff. I mean, I personally think, you know, if there is a danger that reform is managed opposition, I think the establishment sort of knows that probably the reds and the blues may blow up, not win. So they need a safety valve to win. And I. And we're not, we are. And by the way, we're not in anybody's camp. We are only in the camp of the British people. We're in the camp of a, as I say, a sovereign British nation state that makes decisions that are in the interest of the British people. That's what government should be.

[Peter McCormack]

So you think they are managed opposition?

[Rupert Lowe]

I personally think.

[Peter McCormack]

What does that mean? What does manage opposition mean?

[Rupert Lowe]

What is it like a safety valve? So if this group that we've been talking about, who now controls Parliament and has undermined the sovereignty of Parliament, know that a free radical from outside is going to win, they don't like that because that means. That means that they don't necessarily control the agenda. And the danger for a lot of them is that if they haven't behaved themselves, they go to prison and they don't like that. So I, again, I think they needed a. A safety valve. And I've been inside Reform. I don't understand why Reform has hired so many Tories who've been involved in the past with the failures of the Tory government. I mean, both Suella as Home Secretary and Robert Jenrick as Immigration Minister, they were involved in the Bibi Stockholm, they signed off on the contract. I mean, I just find Nadine Dorris a complete farce, and Nadeem Zahawi, you know, massive jabber. So I don't think that what they've done is smart. My formula is real people from outside politics who are going to change things for good. And, you know, that used to be what Parliament was all about. It was. And I'm not necessarily sure I agree with having young, very young people in Parliament. I don't think until you've had real life experience, until you've done something, until you've contributed something, till you paid some tax, till you actually understand which way is up, I don't think you can necessarily make a meaningful contribution to Parliament. But again, that's probably something some people won't agree with.

[Peter McCormack]

Well, that was what John.

[Rupert Lowe]

But I don't want career politicians. I want people who are going to be driven vocationally once they've actually contributed and they understand the consequence of the rules they pass, the laws they pass, the regulations they pass. How can you, if you've never done it?

[Peter McCormack]

This was John Major's criticism. He said that Conservatives used to bring in people who'd had success in business or perhaps maybe they'd work. They were in the army and they were successful in the army and at the Labour Party, they would have had people successful within their community, but it was people who'd done something, proven something, and now it's essentially we have a group of unimpressive people who are essentially student politicians and this is why the country is in the shape it's in.

[Rupert Lowe]

Well, I just think most of them have spent their lives grubbing around in Westminster, you know, as spads or whatever and they've worked their way up, they've never actually built anything so how can they possibly know which way is up? And I walk around Parliament, they're perfectly nice people but have they got the qualifications to govern? Do they understand, as I say, what needs to be done? Have they been involved in a business or in the city or in my case football or insurance or whatever it is? You surely need experience to make a meaningful contribution. And I look at some of these young people and some of them are highly intelligent but being intelligent I very often find there's not a lot of correlation between intelligence and common sense. Very often the most intelligent people have the least common sense. So, so look, I, we, we can philosophize but in the end we need change quickly because if we don't get it by 29 and I, it's possible the election will be earlier than that. But I do think Britain is going to be very difficult to, to sort out and I, I don't want to keep losing our best people. I don't want to keep seeing the most successful people leaving the country. I don't want to see people like yourself not investing in your business. I want to see people confident. I want to see people because a lot of success comes from belief. I mean if you don't believe you're going to do something, you'll never do it.

[Peter McCormack]

Well, you make a calculation as well. Can I make money here? No.

[Rupert Lowe]

It's like I believe we're going to win in Makerfield. I wouldn't go into it if I didn't believe we were going to win. I think we can win and yet the support we're getting is amazing.

[Peter McCormack]

What does, what would, winning in Makerfield mean?

[Rupert Lowe]

I can be massive because I mean up until now I think Camilla Tomine calls me Hoopert. Hoopert. Who is he? You know who calls you that? Camilla Tominet.

[Peter McCormack]

Who's that?

[Rupert Lowe]

Well you tell me. You know her.

[Peter McCormack]

I mean that's more of a who, who to me.

[Rupert Lowe]

Well, she thinks she's very important but look, I, I, and she's, she's a perfectly nice lady but at the end of the day these people are a, again they're a charade. They want you to watch what they're doing all the time. I see them, it's a bit like when I was in football. You get the football pundits who are all ex players sitting around a table talking incessantly about, you know, what the score's going to be, who's going to score a goal, who's going to chop who, who's going to, you know, it's just hours and hours of footage for sky and it's a bit like that now with politics. We get, you know, a long list of nobodies commenting ad nauseam about what may happen, what could happen, what might. I'm only interested in actually doing things and actually sitting there talking about them. But with all the, you know, with all the distribution channels now, what happens is people can't help turning on the telly with a glass of wine and they watch all this stuff.

[Peter McCormack]

It's entertainment.

[Rupert Lowe]

It's entertainment. But do you know what? And I see these people, what, looking at Parliament, hundreds of thousands of them every day, looking, taking pictures and the buildings are very beautiful. And when we had an empire and we had an economy and we had Victorian Britain's legacy, which is fantastic, there was a meaning to it. But I actually think to myself, it's a hollow mountain, Peter. It's a hollow mountain. It's almost like a false God. It's not what it used to be. Britain has not really got a functioning economy. It's got a government that's trying to shut down private enterprise. I mean, just look at, as I say, the growth of the state versus the decline of private, of the private sector, which is a disaster.

[Peter McCormack]

We're playing the Argentina playbook, we are

[Rupert Lowe]

playing the socialist playbook, the Fabian playbook.

[Peter McCormack]

So reform, interestingly got me back into the idea of thinking I might vote. It felt like an anti establishment movement. You5 rascals in parliament sat there challenging people and interest myself at time when what happened to you? And then the Conservatives and again I just became like, ah, it's the same bullshit over and over again, Rupert. But there's a lot of reform voters out there, I think were the same. They were, they were felt like they need an anti establishment movement.

[Rupert Lowe]

Look, I have no issue with reform.

[Peter McCormack]

No, no, no, but my question, I

[Rupert Lowe]

have no, the reform voters are. I have no issue with conservative voters. They are good people and. But you know, they've got to look at what they're voting for.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah. What is your message for those voters though? The people who.

[Rupert Lowe]

Well, I think look long and hard at, at the offerings. I mean, you know, we intend to produce policy documents. They're coming. We've already done one as You've seen on Mass Deportations. We've done one on My Englishman's Home Is Cast. We've done one on the pubs. We've got one coming, literally. I think tomorrow if it all. I think I've just had to write the forward for it. I did it overnight and Harrison Pitt has incorporated that. He's done a little edit of my stuff, which is great. I don't mind that that will be coming out and then we're going to make sure that goes widely to as many people in the oil industry as possible, so they see that there is some hope. The economic paper will be coming out very shortly. I've got an editorial meeting on that on Wednesday. I want that to go out wide so that people can see what we're going to do to revive the economy. I don't see reform doing that. I don't see the papers. The strategy. That was one of my issues with Nigel.

[Peter McCormack]

Well, it's become gimmicky. It's petrol stations.

[Rupert Lowe]

It's petrol stations. It's sort of. It's pap.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah.

[Rupert Lowe]

It's Pat Slop. And the British people are not going to be. We're not going to reach the promised land on pap. We need real. We need a real plan.

[Peter McCormack]

So give us the clarity on immigration, because people want to use that against you. They want to say, another racist party, like they've tried reform. What is the immigration point?

[Rupert Lowe]

It's all in our paper.

[Peter McCormack]

Yes.

[Rupert Lowe]

And you know, I've just said to you earlier, I'm not against limited targeted immigration, which effectively bring skills here which we haven't got, which is going to add to the skill base of Britain. But the determinant is they must respect our culture and our religion, they must respect our laws and they must integrate. That's quite straightforward. So on the concept of immigration, as long as it's very tightly managed, as they do in other countries, I don't have a problem with it. But in the answer to your question, and it's all in our documents, I mean, we analyze in the document, if people read it, and this is part of the problem, is people don't have the attention span to read even 115 pages or whatever it is of a policy document. So we look at the constitutional reasons why what's happening is happening, particularly in the context of illegal immigration, and we then put forward our proposals to what we see needs to be done to actually cure that. We then talk about creating a hostile environment for those people who come here illegally. And we're talking about at the moment, illegal migrants. We're not talking, like Nigel accused me of saying that I would deport whole communities of British passport holders. I have never said that. Our paper sets out a plan to deport all those people, to detain and deport those arriving illegally, to deport those living here illegally. Illegal means illegal in my book, Peter. I'm afraid I'm quite black and white. If you break the law, that's what's called illegal. They've come here illegally, they haven't applied legally to come and stay here. So they have to be found and deported. The 10 and a half thousand criminals in our prisons, I would deport them. I don't have a problem with that. It shouldn't come here and commit crime. And if you come here and commit crime, you get deported. End of story. You shouldn't commit crime if you come here. And then I think we turn our attention, having created the, what I call, you know, the unfriendly sort of hostile environment which you do by removing a lot of benefits that you've been giving or gradually cutting them so that people aren't rewarded for breaking the law and coming here illegally and that the honest British taxpayers aren't taken for fools by having to pay for all this nonsense and that people's communities aren't disrupted by having, you know, young, fighting age working men, I mean, you know, fighting age men from different cultures planted in the middle of their communities. That's not responsible government. So when we've dealt with all that, we then have to turn our attention, which is happening in Sweden and Denmark in countries that took a lot of immigrants in 2015, and they're not contributing, they've never contributed, they're not paying tax, they're all on welfare. And again, they're a burden to the honest, decent, taxpaying citizens. So we need to turn our attention to them and work out what we need to do either to fully integrate them and turn them into taxpayers or encourage them to go home, either by paying them or doing what they do in Denmark and Sweden, working out how much it's likely to cost us over the next five years and what price we need to pay to basically encourage them to go home. And I think if you combine a hostile environment with those incentives, we can legally encourage people to go if they're not contributing. And I actually think a lot of them will go anyway because one of

[Peter McCormack]

the accusations will be, is that and reform have had this, is that you'll create an agency like ICE and the term mass deportations scares People, it frightens people, that idea that people will be kind of.

[Rupert Lowe]

Well, I don't think it'll be easy, Peter, but I, I, I'm afraid I, I, I, I'm quite Protestant in my view of this. I, I think the people, people of this country who actually work and contribute and pay their taxes should be put at the top of the agenda. I don't subscribe to a welfare culture and you know, welfare, I think we collect 331 billion in tax and we pay out 334 billion in welfare. Well, I'm afraid if I get elected, I'm going to be debiting the welfare and crediting the people who actually do the work. And I won't do it unfairly, but I'm going to encourage people and make it worth their while to either contribute or they're going to lose their benefits. I don't agree with just dishing out motability cars or, you know, unlimited benefits. And I certainly don't agree that people on benefits should be better off than those people who are working. That's just wrong. It's morally wrong. And, and it, and it's, but it's a Fabian, it's a Fabian agenda. It's not logical, it's not fair, but it's Fabian. And when a p, when people, people need to wake up and read about Fabianism. Yeah, it's a creeping cancer. Which is, which is, which is not going away unless somebody actually gets the old proton beam machine and gives it a damn good zap.

[Peter McCormack]

What about the pensioners and the triple lock? Do the aging population in this country have to get on a war footing?

[Rupert Lowe]

Will be revealed in our economic paper. But let me tell you, I'm not sure that the triple lock is affordable and therefore it's.

[Peter McCormack]

You're not sure? I mean, I think we know, you

[Rupert Lowe]

will see in our paper what we think about it, Peter. We are going to be absolutely clear about it, but most other parties, and we will be honest about everything and we will be honest about the triple lock. But I'm not going to, I'm not going to tell you what we're going to do yet, but you will see it, it's covered fully in our paper. It's coming out soon.

[Peter McCormack]

See, people know I don't get an advanced copy.

[Rupert Lowe]

But if I, if I just tease it by saying, I mean, Reform said they'd keep it. I think other people said they'll keep it. If I say I think it's probably unaffordable, I think you probably can work out what we're going to do.

[Peter McCormack]

Well, my favorite thing you said in the last interview and if people don't

[Rupert Lowe]

like that look that. I'm sorry, yeah. If people are going to be so self interested they just vote because they're offered a bribe on, on a triple lock. I just think again, bad luck then because I actually think there's too much money locked up in the retired baby boom population and there's not enough money flowing down to the people who are starting their careers and who are trying to build businesses.

[Conor]

Can I tell you the thing that scares me most about politics at the minute? It's something called voting intentions by age. If you look at that chart up there, this petrifies me.

[Rupert Lowe]

I know, look at that.

[Conor]

And I only see that green barrier getting bigger and those blue ones getting smaller as we move on.

[Peter McCormack]

Four more years.

[Rupert Lowe]

We're not on there.

[Conor]

No, you're not.

[Rupert Lowe]

Why aren't we on there?

[Conor]

But how do we change?

[Rupert Lowe]

Because we've got a lot of young people who support what we're doing. What percentage, how they can take that lunatic Polanski seriously.

[Peter McCormack]

Well, I can tell you why they're.

[Rupert Lowe]

And Ellie Chowns, I mean all like, you know, people I see in parliament, I mean, I mean they're just. I'm sorry. And I can tell, I can tell all those young people you're asking me about the 38% up there. I can tell them if they vote Green it will be an utter catastrophe.

[Conor]

Well, you know that. But from a 22 year old's perspective, I'll tell you why they are doing that.

[Rupert Lowe]

Well, that's because they've got nothing to lose.

[Conor]

They've got nothing to lose. They're pissed off. They don't see a future with what has currently been done to them. Every other party puts the 50 plus vote ahead of theirs and the Greens actually come out and they've stood for the youth in some way or another. It might be they've spoken to them. It might be the wrong solution, told

[Rupert Lowe]

them what they want to hear. I think it might be the wrong. So I'm not sure, I'm not sure they've ever justified what they say.

[Conor]

No, and I will agree. I will never vote Green myself, but a large group of my age range is going that way. How do we steer them back?

[Rupert Lowe]

I think if you had us up there you'd probably see we had quite a big share of that vote. But we're not on there. Like we haven't been on any of the polls properly. We've been if you wanted to vote for us, you had to go into other and then specify restore, which is very different to actually just ticking a box on a burning floor. So I think I'm really encouraged by the amount of young people who stop me in the street and they know who I am and they thank me for what I'm doing. And I think that is a very transitory 38%. I think if somebody showed them that they actually did care about the fact that the baby boomers and a lot of the problem we've got, as I just said, is most of the wealth is locked up in the baby boomers. And the baby boomers have a very different outlook on life to the young people. So what the interest of the baby boomers is to curtail risk and try and protect what they've got and what you actually a healthy society needs people recycling. And that goes back to Peter's comment. I mean, that goes back to creating confidence in the economy, which means then that people with money will invest long term. This is the whole point. And that will benefit those 38%. So until we break this, this sort of vicious circle and create a virtuous circle, I suspect there will always be a green, a green sort of element of the young. But they do, if we can break that, this lack of risk, this lack of risk taking and this over regulation which has come from this what I call selfish baby boomer generation. And I'm a tail end boomer myself. I'm not actually a, I'm not in the thick of the boomers. I'm sort of a tail end Charlie of the boomers. But the boomers got to understand that their pensions are only payable if they allow enough wealth to be to trickle down to the able younger people. My grandmother used to say, the older wise, the young are able. So what the wise have got to do is let some of their money trickle down to the young who will then effectively multiply the wealth of the country and then they will have a pension. But the problem is they've shut the city down. Because the city of London when I was young was a fantastic place. It was absolutely humming. And you had wealth creation companies being formed, funded. Now what's happened is the emphasis has gone from risk taking to getting rid of risk within the system. And that has killed the city of London as a financial center. And everybody now raises their money on NASDAQ or in America, where the rule book is much, much easier to navigate. Companies are put on much higher valuations, which means they can raise money much more effectively and invest long term much more effectively. So we've got to give the young some form of belief that their interests are being properly taken care of. And I think that's what I'm hoping to do. Whether they will have, and again, I don't want to be in any way condescending, but whether they'll have either the patience or the ability to understand the economic policies that we're putting forward, which are largely Austrian school based mile a type. They're harder to understand, they're not easy to understand, but I think it's the only way we're going to create the wealth that gives you youngsters the opportunity that I had when I was young. And, and I honestly that, that, that 38 is not going to do it, that they're wrong if they think the Greens are good.

[Conor]

Oh no, 100. 100. You will not see me. It's a lot easier to explain. Let's go tax the rich than it is. We're gonna be, we're gonna run out of deficit for the next 10 years.

[Rupert Lowe]

Taxing the rich.

[Conor]

How do you, how do you educate them?

[Rupert Lowe]

How'd you leave?

[Conor]

How do you. I know that. How do you educate the rest of them?

[Peter McCormack]

Well, how do you get a message?

[Rupert Lowe]

The green agenda is a recidivist agenda which is, which is founded on, on a complete lack of understanding of economics. Well, I know you listen to Zach Polanski and you just think, how can he say that? But you know, what did he used to do? Specialize in convincing women that they had larger breasts than they actually had? I think that's what he used to do, isn't it?

[Peter McCormack]

Hypnosis?

[Rupert Lowe]

Hypnosis, yeah, sort of. You know, maybe he's hypnotized the nation, maybe that 38% have been hypnotized. But no, look, he's, he is, he is just, he's a farce and you can't take him seriously.

[Peter McCormack]

But there's a good signal here on what Conor's saying is that I of 30 years business experience investing, understanding economics, a fan of Hayek, Milton Friedman, Sowell, I know everything he says. Nonsense.

[Rupert Lowe]

Sowell was a very good man, actually.

[Peter McCormack]

And you and I will agree because I know that all the economic policies of the left always end up doing the opposite of what they say. They harm the people they say they want. I know all of this, but it's hard for a young person. I tell the story. I went to the gym. There's a young girl, works around the till, she's making my Coffee. And I'm asking about. And she said she's studying a level, A level economics, she's thinking of doing it as a degree. And I was like, oh cool. So who you think of voting for in the next election? She said, the Greens. And I was like, okay, I've got some books I need to buy you. It's, it's translating a message that young people can believe in. That's a challenge. And, and I don't know how it's done. You know, what is it there for the kids?

[Rupert Lowe]

Look, I feel for them, Peter. And to your point. Yes, I, I think, and Angela Rayner's, you know, workers rights. I mean these people just don't understand that if you and I never understand why they put so much national insurance on employers, why would you tax employment? You're mad.

[Peter McCormack]

Well, there's no tax on employment. As Reagan said, it's always an end tax on the consumer.

[Rupert Lowe]

It's a tax, it's basically if you tax employment, people employ less people.

[Peter McCormack]

Yes.

[Rupert Lowe]

And that in itself, as you know, the wealth sort of multiplier is therefore damaged by that. So, so I mean, but Rainer's workers rights, I mean we are now coming across it in all my businesses. I mean the protections that are available to workers are already incredible. We already see abuse. You know, you've got these wretched lawyers get involved again.

[Peter McCormack]

There's a two year wait in this with ACAs.

[Rupert Lowe]

Correct. So you've got, you've got these bloody lawyers, they make money again, again. And they are, as I say, they're parasites and they, you know, the ambulance chase everywhere, it doesn't matter where you get these ambulance chasing lawyers who are just enriching themselves at the expense of the economy. So we've got to sort that out and we've got to give young people, we've got to give young people some hope that actually they, they're going to be given opportunity because opportunity from opportunity flows wealth as you know. And I, I'm with the young people, I'm not with my fellow. Even though I'm a tail end boomer, I'm not with the boomers. I think they're, they're selfish. I think they've had an incredibly good life. They benefited from their forebears winning the war and they benefited from the peace which fortunately the Anglo Saxon world achieved for everybody. Had it gone the other way, there would have been very little opportunity for anybody other than those close to the to power. So we won, we had what probably a very long period of peace where People wanted peace, respected peace, respected democracy, took governance seriously, wanted to give everybody a chance and behave honestly. We had an honest judiciary. But I'm afraid, as usual, Peter, complacency is our biggest enemy and we become complacent.

[Peter McCormack]

Okay, I've got one last question because I'm conscious of time. All politicians promise hope and change. That's all they ever talk about. And history is full of movements that promise change and failed to deliver the kind of national renewal that people have expected. What is different about restore? And what happens if. What happens this country, if you fail?

[Rupert Lowe]

Well, if we fail to be elected, obviously, you know, I accept that and I think I've always said I'm, you know, my wife's not entirely happy about what I'm doing. At the age of 68, I'm, you know, I could easily take my cricket bat, tuck it under my arm and go and enjoy my life, but I actually don't feel that that's the right thing to do. I've got four children. I want to see change, so my intent is to change things. So if I'm not elected, will I tuck the cricket bat under the arm and accept the result? Probably. But what happens to the country if I am elected? I will do my absolute best to deliver what I say I'm going to deliver. Now, can I guarantee that the country isn't so messed up, that it isn't we can't solve it? No, I can't guarantee that. But I actually do have complete faith in the British people. If they're set free from all the rules, the regulations, the licensing, the lunacy that we've got now, the statism that is, that is strangling us. I think we discussed that earlier, but again, I see in the Public Accounts Committee, I see these civil servants, I see the numbers of them, I see the way in which they delude themselves. They're incredibly powerful. Now, they're supposed to be servants, but they're not. They're now. These are the people who've now taken control of the country because they're not elected. Will people attempt to derail what we try and do? Probably. Will they derail us? I will do my damnedest with my 68 years of cunning to make sure that they don't. But the organs of the state, and I think the people in power who control them are implacably opposed to what we're proposing because they know that what we intend to do is try and return power to the people. So it's credit the people, debit the Statists. And you tend to find in the same way that the communists fought hard even though they knew their model had failed, so that when the wall came down, everybody thought it would take a long time for communism to implode. It imploded immediately because there was nothing there. It had rotten, it had rotted away from inside. I actually think that's what's happening in the eu. I think the EU is rotting from the inside and it will eventually collapse, but they won't ever accept failure. And it's the same with our, with our establishment. So, you know, I, I think with our establishment, we do pomp very well. We do ceremony very well. We, we used to, as I say, have an empire and we used to have something to be proud of. I think we're a bit of a hollow vessel now. And what we've got to do is probably put on our hair shirt, Peter, do some hard work. Expect, expect, don't expect that your standard of living is going to improve because I think at the moment, with all the debt that is funding our lifestyle, we've got to accept the fact we're living above our. What our hard work owes us. So we need to put a cold towel on our heads, do some work, retrench. But I think people will be happier. I think a properly structured, functioning economy based on common sense, logic and fairness, people will live much happier lives. And that's the economy I want to see. And I want to celebrate difference. I want to reward enterprise. I want to punish indolence. I don't want to reward it. And I want to see people who contribute. They should be the ones who are effectively applauded and the people who take risk and build companies and employ lots of people who innovate, who take risk. That's a country I want to see.

[Peter McCormack]

It's a country I want to see. Rupert, I wish you all the success. I'm sure we're going to talk plenty more. Good luck in Makerfield. And yeah, look, you're speaking my language, which is one of economics and law, and I am optimistic, like an underdog. And so let's see if these odds keep shortening and.

[Rupert Lowe]

Yeah, they're coming while we've been speaking.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah, okay, good luck. Thank you for listening, everyone. We'll see you soon.