PMQs #003 - Four Lies Buys A Generation of Decay

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Peter McCormack Show

Episode: PMQs #003 – Four Lies Buys A Generation of Decay
Date: December 1, 2025
Host: Peter McCormack (as "Joe")
Guest/Co-host: Conor

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Overview

This episode tackles a growing sense of political disillusionment in the UK, focusing on the culture of dishonesty among politicians and its corrosive effect on society and governance. The hosts unpack major recent examples from British politics (notably broken Labour pledges under Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves) and explore wider themes of trust, accountability, and the necessity of structural reform in democracy. The discussion weaves personal anecdotes, references international perspectives, and seeks solutions—culminating in a call for radical truth-telling and direct democracy.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Opening Reflections and The State of British Politics

Timestamps: 00:07–06:00

• Disillusionment and Political Fatigue:
  The show opens with frustration about repeated political scandals and broken promises. Joe (Peter) recounts discussing with older generations whether politics has always felt this cynical, confirming a widespread loss of respect across the political spectrum.

• Voter Apathy and Distrust:
  Low election turnout and rapid shifts in party support are attributed to public fatigue with pervasive dishonesty:

  "Everyone's sick of being lied to all the time." — Joe [01:06]

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2. The Lying Culture in Contemporary Politics

Timestamps: 06:00–13:58

• Case Study: Labour’s Child Poverty U-turn and Tax Pledge

  • Rachel Reeves is accused of misleading the public on taxation in advance of the budget, despite evidence from the OBR (Office for Budget Responsibility) that the economic situation wasn’t as dire as presented.
  • Joe criticizes Keir Starmer for reversing on the two-child cap, describing it as a move done solely to placate Labour backbenchers and maintain his own power, not out of moral conviction.
  • The pair discuss broader issues:

    "It is just another lie... He hasn't done more for child poverty than any other prime minister." — Joe [07:21]
    "They take us for mugs." — Conor [02:54]

• Gaslighting on Taxation:

  • Discussion of how the government claims not to have raised certain taxes, while shifting thresholds to increase the overall tax burden—a process described as "pure gaslighting".

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3. Structural Problems: Party Politics and Lack of Accountability

Timestamps: 13:58–16:28

• Party vs Individual Representation:
  • Conor floats the idea of independent MPs standing on personal morals. Joe argues parties are necessary for organizing ideas, but laments how the whip system and group incentives undermine integrity and individual judgment.
  • They agree that persistent, systemic lying is a bigger issue than party discipline.

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4. Media, Narrative Control & Manufactured Consent

Timestamps: 10:57–16:12

• How Political HQs Shape the Narrative:
  • Joe explains how parties push coordinated talking points through MPs and media allies, manufacturing public consent through repetition, regardless of actual policy changes.
  • Quote referencing Reagan:

    "If you raise taxes on business, they are a sales tax." — Joe [12:14]

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5. International Context: Authoritarianism, Democracy and Loss of Trust

Timestamps: 16:12–29:41; 43:01–51:03

• Highlights from Tucker Carlson & Piers Morgan Discussion:

  • The group reflects on a dialogue between Tucker Carlson and Piers Morgan about the democratic façade versus overt authoritarianism.
  • Carlson laments hidden, manipulative forms of authoritarian control in Western democracies:

    "There’s something more offensive about an authoritarianism that will not admit what it is." — Tucker Carlson [44:01]

  • Joe prefers the ability to “fight” subtle authoritarian drift rather than living under explicit repression.

• Erosion of Free Speech and Public Power:

  • Concerns over chilling effects on speech, digital IDs, and proposed limits on jury trials are discussed as indicators of Britain’s “soft authoritarian” slide.

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6. The Four-Lie Theory & Generational Decay

Timestamps: 17:56–20:05

• Joe proposes “four lies buys a generation of decline”—the idea that manifestos are crafted to win elections with no intent of keeping pledges, leading to consequences for an entire generation.
• Voters are trapped: by the time each set of broken promises is recognized, a new government (with more false promises) is up for election.

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7. Economics, Debt, and Future Generations

Timestamps: 20:05–39:14

• Household vs. Government Budgets:
  • Joe rejects the notion that national budgets differ fundamentally from household budgets—arguing government borrowing simply pushes the bill onto future taxpayers.
• Business Pressures:
  • Personal stories of having to shutter or reconsider businesses due to hostile economic climate highlight the real-world impact of government policy.
• Inflation as Theft from the Young:
  • Joe rails against inflation and government debt as mechanisms that “steal time” from the next generation, eroding social mobility and opportunity:

    "Money is a proxy for time... Debt is also a proxy for time. It's stealing from the future." — Joe [31:56]

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8. Youth, Socialism, and Purpose

Timestamps: 33:12–39:44

• Empathy vs. Economic Literacy:
  • Joe empathizes with young people’s turn to socialism, framing it as a product both of economic frustration and a lack of education about economic complexity:

    "I would think it'd be weird if a teenager didn't think socialism was a good idea..." — Joe [33:24]

  • He contrasts “popular” leftist policies (like rapid wage or welfare increases) with the potential for unintended consequences.
• Need for Purpose and Resilience:
  • The pair agree that young people need more than just handouts or idealistic promises; they need “purpose,” resilience, and the truth about how tough economic life is.

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9. Systemic Reform: Lessons from Switzerland

Timestamps: 39:58–51:03

• Direct Democracy as a Solution:
  • They discuss the Swiss model, where 100,000 signatures can trigger a referendum, forcing real government accountability.
  • Joe argues that such a system disciplines government, limits centralization, and restores trust:

    "Why can't we have that as a country?... It puts limits on government. It kind of forces a bit more honesty." — Joe [41:01]

  • Conor:

    "That's how you fight authoritarianism." [50:59]

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10. Final Call: Truth-Telling as a Revolutionary Act

Timestamps: 29:41–53:17

• Joe’s Manifesto for Politicians:
  • Demands politicians and parties be legally accountable for broken promises—calling for acts of parliament and even jail time for systemic lying.
  • Asserts that society is not served by unchecked power or chronic dishonesty; only structural change and a “revolution in truth” can reverse generational decline:

    "Telling the truth shouldn't be a radical act." — Joe [53:10]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On lying and trust:

  "We were sold a manifesto of no tax rises. They came back a year later in the budget and they've raised 40 billion in new taxes." — Joe [09:21]

• On gaslighting:

  "She was saying, we have not changed the rate of VAT, national insurance and income tax. That was their manifesto promise. But by moving the thresholds, they've effectively done the same." — Joe [12:29]

• On broken manifestos:

  "What is the point of the manifesto? ... Is this democracy?" — Joe [18:47]

• On direct democracy:

  "If parliament passes a new law and citizens that oppose it get 100,000 signatures...that allows a referendum on it." — Joe [41:01]

• On the need for structural change:

  "Let's have people...send politicians to jail for lying to us. Let's have reelections if you break your manifesto promises. This should not be radical. Telling the truth shouldn't be a radical act." — Joe [52:30–53:10]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------------------|-------------| | Opening rant & political fatigue | 00:07–02:54 | | The Beth Rigby and Keir Starmer child poverty saga | 05:03–09:21 | | Rachel Reeves tax controversy/Gaslighting | 10:18–13:01 | | Systemic party lying & accountability | 14:09–16:14 | | Tucker Carlson on authoritarianism | 16:55–17:56 & 43:16–44:01 | | "Four lies buys a generation of decay" | 17:56–20:05 | | Swiss direct democracy model | 39:58–51:03 | | Final manifesto for truth-telling politicians | 51:03–53:17 |

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Tone and Style

• Blunt, irreverent, but earnest:
  The show mixes hard-edged critique with moments of exasperated humor and openness about personal stakes.
• Conversational, occasionally ranting:
  The hosts punctuate arguments with anecdotes, asides, and references to broader culture, keeping the discussion organic and direct.

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Conclusion

The episode is a raw, wide-reaching dismantling of the UK's broken political culture. Joe and Conor diagnose a cross-party epidemic of lying, the dissolution of public trust, and the way systemic failure is inflicting lasting damage on the next generation. Their solution: structural reform for real accountability, truth as a civic virtue, and the direct involvement of the public via mechanisms modeled on Swiss democracy.

End message:

"Telling the truth shouldn't be a radical act." — Joe [53:10]

Transcript

[Conor]

Foreign.

[Joe]

Welcome to the show. It's been another crazy weekend in the clown world. British politics, following our budget last week. So I'm going to address this here and there's something I really want to address today. It's been bothering me for a while. It's a little bit obvious, but it's this constant lying from our politicians. I've got my. I've got my laptop here today. I've got a lot of notes. I might be referring to them because I don't want to miss some bits, but yeah. Welcome to the show. Conor, how you doing?

[Conor]

Doing all right.

[Joe]

Our groiper in the corner.

[Conor]

Let's be clear, I'm not a groper.

[Joe]

The British groiper. How are you enjoying your newfound group of young female fans that we heard about?

[Conor]

I actually think it might potentially be old fish year old men, which is kind of weird. So.

[Joe]

So, no, I know for a fact we have some new, younger in their 20s, younger in their 20, girls who like the podcast.

[Conor]

Well, let's just leave that there. Yeah, yeah. All right.

[Joe]

Anyway, welcome to the show. Yeah, it's been another clown weekend and I'm just kind of over it. I think the country. I think we talked about this on the last show. Everyone's sick of being lied to all the time. We know in the last election we had one of the lowest turnouts ever. We know people are switching party really quickly and I think there's a bigger issue at hand here. I want to talk about this today. I want to get into this constant lying. And it started over the weekend when we found out that maybe Rachel Reeves had misled the public so she could come and tax us again. Richard Hughes from the OBR wrote to the Commons Treasury Committee and told them as of mid September that it wasn't all doom and gloom, that actually there was a buffer there. Despite Rachel Reeves coming out and publicly preparing us for taxes, telling us that the economy was in a desperate state. We find out it was probably just her misleading the public because she wanted to tax us more. So I want to talk about this a lot today. Cause it's starting to frustrate me. I'm so, Connor, what do you think about this? Because on the way down, I phoned his granddad, my dad, and I said to him, I was like, dad, has politics always been this much of a clown show? Cause sometimes maybe you think this is all crazy, they're all idiots, but maybe it's always been like that. Maybe it's just recency bias. But my dad said no, he Said, it is definitely worse now. Yeah. Previously, there were politicians on the opposite side to what my dad would have voted for. And he said, look, I maybe didn't like them, but I respected them. But my problem is I don't really respect anyone.

[Conor]

They take us for mugs.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Conor]

Complete and utter mugs.

[Joe]

But what's it like for you? How do you feel? Because we know the next election is going to be the first one you're going to actually vote in with a stake in it. And when you watch it all, what does it mean to you?

[Conor]

It's like a clown show. Honestly, it's hard to have respect for any of them.

[Joe]

Is it?

[Conor]

I feel like none of them know what they're talking about. They think that the electric themselves are just scum. We're gonna do what we like, say what we like.

[Joe]

Are you talking about it with your mates?

[Conor]

Do you guys. No. I don't think enough people my age actually really care too much about what's going on. They're just focused on trying to get a job.

[Joe]

Yeah, yeah. It's rough out there. So, yeah, I just. I really struggle to. I look across the political class and go, honestly, who do I trust? Like, who do I actually trust and respect? Because I don't trust. I don't trust anyone in the Labor Party. There's very, very few now within the Conservatives I trust, and I see them all playing the same game. I look at what Zach Polanski's doing with the Greens, and I think fair play to use. Zach, you've made some good ground, but I know you're economically illiterate and you're. You're either. You're either lying or you just don't know what you're talking about. It's one of the two, and we're going to talk about that at some point. I mean, the. I don't even bother thinking about the Lib Dems because they're just.

[Conor]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe]

Less said about them the better. And then, you know, we've got reform with some big promises, but I've got no reason to trust them yet because they've never held office. So I look across it all and I'm like, I don't trust any of you. So what is this machinery of government we've built that allows it to survive constantly was always making our lives a lot worse. So we're going to get into that. I'm going to pull a few clips in as well, because there's a few things that just expose it to me. And let's Start with the the Beth Rigby clip with Keir Starmer, his passionate.

[Beth Rigby]

Defence any government has ever done.

[Joe]

Prime Minister, final question. You said you would do politics differently, you would put country before party. Instead, you have done today something your party wanted to save your own skin. You are not a government of service, you are a government.

[Beth Rigby]

I don't know how many interviews we've done between us, but I have repeatedly, to you and everybody else for years, said I want a Labour government to drive down child poverty. This is not a decision of the last few weeks or months. I have said that from the get go. It is one of. It's a moral mission. It is a personal mission. You and I have had interviews where I said I'm determined to drive down child poverty. It is impossible to argue that. This is a position that's been adopted just in the last few weeks. It's been my long standing ambition. I'm proud to be the Prime Minister that's done more on child poverty than any Prime Minister ever.

[Joe]

We love Beth Rigby, don't we?

[Conor]

She's an animal.

[Joe]

All right, so listen, look, the thing about this clip, which was interesting for me, this was after Rachel Reeves ran her budget and told us she was raising taxes on us again, is this passionate defense and excuse that he wanted to do more work on child poverty. He wanted to remove the two child cap. Now, I'm not going to argue against supporting and helping children in poverty. To me, actually, if you ran a budget, it's the first line item. Just put child poverty in there. I'm gonna forget all my economic beliefs. I'm gonna support you on that. I'm not gonna fight child poverty. I've seen it. I know teachers, I know people who work in education and they've told me how desperate is for some families. I'm not gonna fight you on that. What I'm fighting you on here is just the lies because we were told in the manifesto. This is what people voted on. They voted on a manifesto that said there would be no tax rises on working people. Keir Starmer in 2023 endorsed keeping the cap in July 2023, mid 2023, he signaled that Labour would stick to the Tory policy in 2024 under the Labour leadership. Starmer said with Rachel Reeves alongside him, that he was going to resist lifting the cap. He said we couldn't afford it, so the country could not afford it. And then the worst thing is when there was a cross party amendment to abolish it. There was a cross party amendment to abolish the cap. In mid 2024, the Labour Party under Keir Starmer rejected it and they suspended MPs who voted against it to now come out and say, oh, I've always cared about child poverty. I am the Prime Minister that's done more for child poverty than any other Prime Minister. Which, firstly, is a lie. It's just rationalizing. And the thing was, with that clip, the thing was, is the amount of people that came out and said, this is the Keir Starmer I love, the one with the passionate defense. No, it's just a lie. It is just another lie. He's lied to the public again. And first, as I said, he hasn't done more for child poverty than any other prime minister in history. I am no fan of Tony Blair, but Tony Blair, Gordon Brown lifted over a million kids out of poverty. So it's just factually untrue. And this is the point of it all. It's like, I am so sick of them just changing their minds, breaking manifesto promises and lying to us. We were sold a manifesto of no tax rises. They came back a year later in the budget and they've raised 40 billion in new taxes. Rachel Reeves even said, look, this is just going to be a one off. Come back a year later, another 26 billion in tax rises to support an increase in the welfare bill. And listen, if you want to talk about doing more for child poverty, you have to have a functioning economy that allows people to work, earn money and not be taxed to the hilt. You've got to not have high inflation. These are the tough economic choices you need to make to allow people to escape poverty, because we have people in a poverty trap right now. So I'm just. I'm just over it. And I know why he's lying. Beth Rigby knew why he's lying. We've had people circling like vultures for his job. He is what he's pro. I think he's the worst Prime Minister of my lifetime. He doesn't stand for anything. I think he's a bit of a wet wipe. And there's been talks of Andy Burnham and Wes treating and a leadership challenge for him. This was not Keir Starmer wanting to put something in place for child poverty. It wasn't. He was against it in 2023, against it in 2024 MPs were suspended for voting against the amendment. He's done it now to placate his backbenchers because his position's under threat. This is purely done to keep his position as Prime Minister. It is an absolute lie. And the worst thing is these lies. It's like we have complete loss of trust now in the political system. That's it. It's so bad. We even had Rachel Reeves on the weekend lying about lying. She was at two interviews on the weekend. I watched them both Laura Kuenssberg and Trevor Phillips. Let's do the Trevor Phillips clip. Did you lie?

[Rachel Reeves]

Of course I didn't.

[Joe]

The leader of the opposition said about the choices that you made that. I'm quoting here. For months, Reeves has lied to the public to justify record tax hikes to pay for more welfare.

[Conor]

Did you lie?

[Rachel Reeves]

Look, I'm a Labour Chancellor. I want to reduce child poverty. I make no apologies for that. This will be the biggest ever reduction in child poverty in a parliament ever. And I'm proud to be the chancellor that lifts half a million kids out of poverty. That means kids not going to bed hungry. It means kids not waking up in cold and damp homes. And I am proud and I'm very happy to defend the choices I've heard.

[Joe]

I just asked you, did you lie? And I have to say, the answer I was looking for was no. I didn't hear the word no.

[Rachel Reeves]

But you also asked about welfare in that.

[Joe]

No, I just asked you, did you lie?

[Rachel Reeves]

Of course I didn't.

[Joe]

Good.

[Tucker Carlson]

Okay.

[Joe]

By the way, was the primary. I think you did brilliant there. I mean, she did lie. She's lied to us repeatedly, over and over. Rachel Rees has lied to the country. They broke their manifesto promises. They said they wouldn't come back for more taxes, and they've come back for more taxes in November. She painted a very dark picture of the country, the state of the economy ahead of the budget and announced new tax rises. And this is the thing she also, and I talked to, I think it was in the last episode, I talked about how the way political parties and the way their HQs deliver a wave of narrative through the system, through the media, through social media, they get their talking points for the day. All the MPs get them. They just tweet them. And then all the influencers, your James o', Briens, et cetera, just repeat them, and it just becomes a war narrative. And the war narrative now is that we've not raised taxes on working people. Well, they have twice now. As we said on the last show. Reagan said, if you. There's no such thing as a business tax. If you raise taxes on business, they are a sales tax. So they're a tax on working people. And they raise the NI rate for companies. They've moved the thresholds now. But this is the bit that really annoyed me. It's the gaslighting from Rachel Reeves, where I think it was even in this interview, Connor, she was saying, we have not changed the rate of vat, national insurance and income tax. That was their manifesto promise. But by moving the thresholds, they've effectively done the same. They've raised the taxes on working people. So it's pure gaslighting. And this is the thing. If we want to build a strong country, we can't build a strong country on a foundation of lies. I mean, Laura Trott called her out. What was it Laura Trott had?

[Conor]

She was saying how the OBR are reporting 4.9% per head on children in schools. The funding under. Yeah, yeah. Which is catastrophic. She was saying inflation's still up. The third one was the ibr.

[Joe]

No, the ifs.

[Conor]

Sorry, saying said the outcome for living standards is dismal.

[Joe]

It's absolutely dismal. And the thing is, is I don't know about anyone watching this, but being a normal English guy, went down the pub this weekend and this is all anyone spoke about. And everyone, everybody who's working is facing a much harder time now. We've already gone through masses of inflation, we've already gone through tax rises. People have. It's like a common story. People say, yeah, you know, I'm a week into the month, I paid my rent or I paid my mortgage, I paid my bills, I've done the shopping, but I've got like 200 quid left or 300 quid left.

[Conor]

How has this happened, I wonder? Do you think the problem itself might be party politics? This is gonna be quite a. Just try and picture this.

[Joe]

I'll run with you.

[Conor]

Can we run a parliament of fully independent MPs? Everyone just stands by their own morals. You're elected on what you believe in and everyone has to work together.

[Joe]

No, I think that's a good question. This is what George Washington warned about in America. He warns about factionalism and we do have factionalism. I don't know if you can. I think you need parties. I think you need groups of people behind ideas.

[Conor]

But then, are you subject to not stand by your own ideas? Because you have to follow the party.

[Joe]

Yeah, but that. I know what you mean. It's why I wouldn't become a politician. Because of the whip. Right, yeah. I'd have to vote for things I don't agree with. But I think that's just the nature of politics. That's not the Thing that bothers me so much, it is the just out and out lying constantly that happens when in Parliament, outside of parliament, on news, in interviews, it's like you're just lying to us. And do you know what the crazy thing is, Conor? It's like I'm voting last three elections. I might not vote in the next election to be seen. But if there was a politician who got up at the dispatch box at PMQS and said, do you know what, Kier, I actually agree with you on that. I think that's a good idea. I support you. Give me a call, we'll get down next. We'll sit down next week, I'll see how I can help you. Or an interview here, like Trevor Phillips. Yeah, if Rachel Reeves came out and said, yeah, it's not that I lied, it's just I looked at the data. We decided, you know, we weren't going to raise the two trial cap, but actually looked at it. There are a lot of people in poverty and we wanted to help them. And so, yeah, I've basically gone back on what I've said. I'm sorry, I'm a Labor mp. This is what you should expect from me. Or even more so. She said, look, we had so much pressure from our backbenchers, we had to do this. But what happens is they lie. Everyone else figures it out and nobody trusts them. But in some ways the problem is it all serves itself. Because if both parties or all parties get to lie, the whole system defends itself.

[Conor]

The incentives.

[Joe]

Yeah, that's what they.

[Conor]

Incentives of power.

[Joe]

That's why they talk about the uniparty. Right. Essentially, the whole system is designed to protect itself and we as taxpayers and voters just get screwed constantly. We should bring up that clip between. There was that interview between Tucker Carlson.

[Conor]

And really interesting interview and Piers Morgan.

[Joe]

I mean, it was ridiculous at times. People should watch it. It's utterly ridiculous. When I say it's ridiculous. If you watch it, you'll know exact what I mean. But there was one moment where I was, remember I called you up afterwards, I was like, I think Piers has just, in a moment, without realizing he's done it. He made me realize something that's super important.

[Tucker Carlson]

But it's all a kind of displacement where you're taking your own frustrations with yourselves and your own cowardice and sort of living in this Walter Mitty world. We're like, no, actually we're brave. We're going to defend Ukraine. It's like, what about defend yourselves against the monsters?

[Conor]

Defending Ukraine?

[Tucker Carlson]

It's like eighth on the list. Defend yourself, defend your human rights. They can't put you in jail for saying naughty words, period.

[Joe]

I agree.

[Tucker Carlson]

So march on the capitol. Get these people out. Scare them.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Tucker Carlson]

Do to them what you did to the germans in poland, which you would like to do to the russians in the way.

[Conor]

We are a democratic society with a democratic government.

[Tucker Carlson]

How is it democratic? Nobody wants to.

[Joe]

When the government overreaches and I think on free speech, they've lost the plot.

[Conor]

If they do, they will get, I can guarantee you voted out of.

[Tucker Carlson]

When was the last time britain's voted for millions of foreigners to come to their country?

[Conor]

Well, you don't.

[Joe]

You vote for a government.

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, you don't ever vote for that. So the biggest thing that's ever happened in your history, nobody voted for people.

[Joe]

So I think what piers did there, he might not have realized, but what he did there for me, he made me realize that four lies buys a generation of decline. And what I mean by four lies by is a generation of decline. Labor created a manifesto to win an election within there with this huge promise. The one that everyone remembers is that we will not raise taxes on working people. Rachel reeves said, our budget is fully costed. We will not raise taxes on working people. Now, if they'd have come in and said, listen, we think the economy is not in a great shape. We want to invest in public services, we want to get rid of the two child cap limit, but we're going to have to raise taxes on working people. We're going to have to do 40 billion in the first year, 26 billion in the second year. It would have been honest, but we as a public might not have voted them in. So what is the point of the manifesto? If you can come in and write a manifesto and then just immediately break all your promises, Is this democracy? Because now, I mean, the big thing people are saying is like, God, I've got to sit. We've got three more years of this. It could be 28, 29 before we have another election. What's going to happen in the next budget? How much more decay and decline are we going to get? How much more inflation, how poor is growth going to be? How many companies are going to close down? How bad is it going to get under this government? And then what happens? We have another election. We have to look at the manifesto for labor for the next one. Well, no one will trust you at all. We have to look at the conservative manifesto. You're going to struggle to have people trust you after your 14 years of abject failure. So then we've got Lib Dems. I think some labor voters will go to Lib Dems, the Greens, who are doing very well. And then we'll have the reform manifestos and we're going to go, okay, we're going to vote again. What if they come in and break their manifesto promises? It'll be another five years. And that's the point. It's like, how much damage can you do to a generation across four elections?

[Conor]

I do wonder, though, how hard it is with the manifesto, like from the football club, for example. You sit at the start of the year, you say, we're going to keep to this, and all sorts of stuff just comes flying out nowhere, right? Or coffee shop dishwasher breaks. That's an expense, right? Imagine that on a country scale.

[Joe]

Well, it's like that. We listen to that Zach Polanski interview with Rory Stewart and the war criminal on the way in, and he said, correct me if I'm wrong, but he said, one of the realizations I have is that the budget of the country is not like a household budget. I mean, I fundamentally disagree with that. I think it's exactly the same, or, sorry, it should be exactly the same in that you have a certain amount of income, you have a certain amount of expenses and you have to make it work. And if you don't, you have to borrow, but you have to pay back those debts. So I borrow for the mortgage and the car, have to pay those back. If I get. If I don't meet my debt obligations, my house will get repossessed. So there is a forcing factor for me to have economic responsibility in our household. There's no forcing factor with the government because they can keep borrowing money, which is stealing from you and your grandkids. And it's a bit like if the household budget was such that if I went over budget and I couldn't afford to pay my debts, why just go and steal something from everyone in the street to pay it off? That's exactly how government works. We can't keep to a budget because we don't have to, because I can socialize my mistakes to everyone else. And so I think the problem is that we don't have these forcing functions, a bit like Switzerland does, to force government to be responsible.

[Conor]

And 100,000 votes, we'll come to the Swiss thing.

[Joe]

I do want to talk about that, but I really want to talk about that. There is an election now going to be in three and a half years time. I think a lot of people think I'm going to vote for reform. And I just want to be as clear as possible. As it is, I'm not voting for anyone. I haven't voted in the last three elections. And I know that upsets people. But my vote has to be earned. I spend most of my time just working, building businesses, trying to create prosperity for my family and the people who work for me. I see government as just something that gets in the way and I just have to build my businesses around it. It's a bit like that Daniel Priestley thing. I only get involved when it gets so difficult. Now it's got too difficult. I mean, we've closed. We've closed down one business. Well, we haven't closed it down. We were going to start that pizza place. We're not doing it anymore because it's just the economic climate isn't such that it's worth starting that business. There's another business we have we might have to close down potentially. I mean, it's so hard out there to make money in hospitality that we might have to close it down. And it's just like if we should. Let's play that, Play the thing from reform because reform came out. Reform been interesting, right? I'm obviously a conservative slash libertarian in that I believe in conservative economics. I just do. You will not get me voting for a left wing party because I think they have fantasy economics. And by the way, I think the last conservative administration essentially had fantasy left wing economics. I will only vote for a party that has conservative economics because I think the strength of a country is built on its economy. And the only type of economics that works long term is conservative economics. It is left wing socialist economics, which I think is one of the most destructive things that's happened to our country. And that doesn't mean I'm right wing. It doesn't mean I am a conservative heart. It means I just believe in conservative economics. And like I say, I said it before, if the Green Party came out with some incredible manifesto of conservative economics, I would take it seriously. I mean, they obviously won't because Zach Polanski is economically illiterate. But I would consider it. But there's only two manifestos that are going to be worth me looking at. That's going to be reform and conservatives because they're the only people likely to have conservative economics. But play the video because it's come at an interesting time. I think their timing is quite interesting. They're trying to. They're listening to what people in the country are saying.

[Conor]

The people speaking our language.

[Joe]

Well, the people we're in the pub with, when we talk to people about this, they're saying the same thing. But I've got a really interesting point on this.

[Reform Party Spokesperson]

Reform will strive to make work pay and will be on the side of small and family businesses. We'll reduce the bloated welfare state, slash red tape, raise the threshold at which you start paying income tax as soon as possible, and cut Britain's energy bills by scrapping crazy net zero targets invented by Boris Johnson and Ed Miliband. None of this will be easy. I've made it clear that we cannot promise immediate tax cuts until we tackle the debt crack crisis created for the Conservatives and Labor. For too long, governments have prioritized those who take more out of the country than they put in. Enough reform will end welfare handouts to foreign nationals. We will always be on the side of working people.

[Joe]

To be determined.

[Conor]

So you say.

[Joe]

Yeah, so you say. And that's the key point. Is that what stops these words becoming another manifesto where the promises end up being broken? What? How can I trust what you're saying here? Because in the end, they are just words.

[Conor]

And also, again, just to be fair, last week when we were watching the Rachel Reeves video, it's all very theatrical. Again, there's a guy laying bacon on a sarnie. Oh, this is the person we care about. It's all very cinematic. Just speak to the camera. Be real.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Conor]

This is exact replication of Reeves with the railway road workers.

[Joe]

Yeah, yeah, it's the same. It's the same. Yeah, it's exactly the same. And look, I think the biggest lie told in every election, the word that's used to gaslight us, every single election, is change. It doesn't matter if it's here in the UK or our local elections in Bedford or the presidential elections in the us, all you ever hear is vote for change. And when we say change, we know you're promising something better. Yeah, we've had change under labor, we've had an even more disastrous economic climate. But when you say change, you're promising a positive change and we always get a negative change every single time. It's like I say, what has got better in this country in the last 30 years? Pretty much nothing. And so. My vote at the moment is a floating vote that might not go to any party, but one way my vote will be worked, were earned, is if a party not only comes out with a manifesto which promises Conservative economics, strips back the red tape that's getting in the way of businesses Pro growth, pro British people, supporting working people in this country. All that stuff obviously I want. But more importantly, and I make it an act of Parliament, I want structural changes to way government operates so that a party is held accountable, held accountable when they lie, held accountable to their manifesto promises. I don't want to have another situation where we vote. And you me are sat here in four years time, Conor, going, right, here's the first budget yet reform of one. Oh yeah, they just bullshitted us. I don't want to do that again. I refuse to do that again. I refuse it. Everyone likes it. I mean, they're even getting it in the US at the moment. Trump was the great hope. Trump was gonna fix America.

[Conor]

What?

[Joe]

He lied about the Epstein files. He's done nothing for the massive deficit in the U.S. you know what?

[Conor]

He was big, beautiful Bill. Yeah.

[Joe]

Trump's big success in the election was winning a larger share of the youth vote. But the youth problems are still the same in the us so he lied about the Epstein files. He supported Israel, which is. Yeah, we can argue about whether it's been a genocide or not. I think most of us know now that what's happened in Gaza is grotesque and disgusting. And that's not a pro Hamas statement. That is a. There are innocent people being killed and the lives of children, which are horrific. And he's done nothing for the cost of living in the US which affects young people.

[Conor]

And now you're seeing this swing back to socialism.

[Joe]

Sure.

[Conor]

Mamdani.

[Joe]

Mamdani. Because of that. And so we see that impact a lot quicker now. We see that. I think the youth vote swings even faster than the votes of people at my age. And so what we. I think we. I sometimes I think I must sound like. I know I must sound like a nutter, but I think I'm actually the rational person. I'm trying. What I want here is a revolution in truth. I want a revel. I. I want.

[Conor]

You sound nuts.

[Joe]

I sound crazy. I want a revolutionary act of truth. If. But telling the truth feels like a revolutionary act right now. I'm gonna.

[Conor]

That's how far we've gone, Joe.

[Joe]

I'm gonna do a different color. I'm gonna tell the truth. It's just. It's like everything Orwell warned us against. Please go watch 19. Read 1984. Watch 1984. This is everything we were warned about that if we don't. If we don't trust our own eyes, if we accept lies, we just empower this state to do horrific things to us. But I Do I sound like a nutter? I swear I'm the rational one. I swear I'm the rational one. But this stuff matters, right? The country and the economy is a complex system. I think with a complex system like the economy, the best thing the government can do is get out of the way. But they insist on interfering. So if they're going to insist on interfering, they need to understand that lies create policies and policies create outcomes. And a lot of these outcomes are declined. I don't want any more of this. And so I say, okay, why does this matter to me? And it's been a weird 24 hours, but. And I'm going to get into why, you know, why, kind of. But I've had a good life. Life's been good to me. I've had cool jobs, I've traveled the world, I've been to over 50 countries. I've been to endless concerts and sporting events. I've had two beautiful kids, you know, we've had great holidays, we've had. I've had a great life. I'm 47. Hopefully I live to in my late 70s and 80s.

[Conor]

Huh?

[Joe]

We'll see, we'll see, we'll see, we'll see. Fuck off. But like, it's been an all right life, right? If, if I was to lose everything now, I was to go and have a job and just live a simple life, I would look back and go, I've had a good life. I've got to do so many amazing things. I've been incredibly fortunate. Worked for it, but been fortunate. Everything we do as an adult in politics at my age should be for the future country that our kids will inherit. So this is why I'm so against debt and inflation. Because we are stealing from you and your kids and your kids.

[Conor]

Kids.

[Joe]

Money is a proxy from time. Very simple concept. You know, if you have, if you go to work and you earn money, you do savings, you're buying yourself time at the end of your life. We talked about this before. Debt is also a proxy for time. It's stealing from the future. And so I don't, I don't care anymore about what happens to me. Like, I don't care. Make my life a bit difficult, but make the future for our kids great. Because do you know what? It's hard for them out there. We created this whole story for kids. Go to school, work hard, go to university, get a degree, you'll get a job, you'll buy a house, you drive a nice car, you have a holiday each year. Everything will be Rosy. That just doesn't exist anymore. University has become a scam. We've got this massive growth in AI which is eviscerating jobs for young people. You've got, you know, people coming back from union who can't get jobs. It is tough out there for kids. Throw into that that. We've given them all mobile phones, these supercomputers that can tell them anything. We've, you know, rammed this social media experiment down their throats, created all this pressure for them. We've created a tough world for kids, yet we've had massive growth in wealth in our country, across the world and we can create a better country for our kids.

[Conor]

Do you blame them for going towards socialism?

[Joe]

What young people? Absolutely not. I've talked about that. I talked about it's a failure of education.

[Conor]

Yeah. Do you understand why?

[Joe]

Totally.

[Conor]

They are so pissed off.

[Joe]

Hey, listen, I would think it'd be weird if a teenager didn't think socialism was a good idea. You want a youngster to have empathy. You know when you say to a youngster and you go, should, should we, should we remove poverty? Should we provide enough money that is possibly available to remove poverty in our country? I would expect every youngster to say yes, hopefully. Yeah, you want to have empathy. Should we allow everybody who's trying to come to our country from another country, who's escaping war and famine or whatever to come into our country? Yeah, of course you want to be nice and do good things, but young voters or even yourself, I don't want to condescend you here, but life is about the accumulation of knowledge. It's a bit like when you're a two year old, we have stair gates because you don't understand stairs and we don't want you falling down them. You know when you're early teenager and you want to go to a party, we want to be, we want to know which parents are there and what's happening because we know you'll make silly mistakes. There's accumulation of knowledge over your life. The economy is a complex system and conservatives aren't just mean people who go, yeah, I just want to keep all the money for ourselves. No, they're not. They are people who understand this is a complex system and if you get things wrong, there's a butterfly effect which could be hugely damaging for the economy. That's all it is. I could out debate Zach Polanski as a leftist. Say you're Zach Polanski and you come here and say, I think the minimum wage should be £12.50 I'll just say, well, I think it should be £13.50. Why do you want people to be poorer? If Zach Polanski comes out and says, well, I think we should have a green policy that phases out coal and gas over the next 20 years, I say, I'm going to do it in 10 years and ban petrol cars. I care about the environment more than you. Yeah. And if Zach Polanski comes out and says, I don't know, what are the other things he cares about?

[Conor]

Wealth tax.

[Joe]

I think we should have a wealth tax. It should be at 2% for a billionaire. I think it should be 3%. Like, debating.

[Conor]

It's easy, it's easy.

[Joe]

It's not that I don't think he.

[Conor]

Has empathy, but he doesn't understand the.

[Joe]

Consequences or he does and he wants power. And these are popular choices. Dave Smith talked about this. Where's your limiting factor? The point is, I can out debate a leftist as a leftist because I can just offer more stuff for free. That's not the point. The point is these are complex systems. What are the effects? If you're going to interject yourself into this, if you're going to distort the market, what are the outcomes? And we know wealth taxes, they've pretty much been removed everywhere. They've been tried to minimum wage cost jobs and certainly cost jobs for young people. We're not just being mean conservatives. We're actually saying we want a strong, robust economy and not everyone can win. We can't all be equal. And this is just how it is. And so how do we even get here?

[Conor]

Kids. Kids, yeah, kids are important.

[Joe]

Get on my soapbox. No, but that's the thing. The point is, yes, I want a great future for you and your sister, of course, but actually, the kids across the country, I don't care anymore. For me, I can retire. Life will be fine for me. I care about the kids of the future. I care about the kids in poverty. I actually do care about the kids in poverty. If you come to me with a budget and your starting point is we want to get rid of poverty in this country. And that's not just relative poverty, because you can have a rich country and by that measure, people could be considered in relative poverty because of the inequality from the rich, but still be able to afford anything. I'm talking about material deprivation, kids who maybe have to skip a meal or parents who can't heat their home. If you come to me and that's your first line item in your budget and you say, it's 40 billion to get rid of it. And we're gonna have to sacrifice a few things. I'm like, okay, tell me what we're sacrificing because I'm in. If you come to me with that and you're not going to drive up inflation and you're going to ask for some more tax, I'm in. I'm totally cool with that. But I think we need to do more than that for the kids. It's not just that we have to educate them in a way, not indoctrinate them into this government economic gaslighting. We have to teach them history, teach them what's happened with socialism in every country that's been tried. Point out what's happening in North Korea and in Cuba and Venezuela. Just show these socialist models why they haven't worked. And if you want to say, oh, we want Nordic, well, let's be honest, these aren't socialist countries. They're actually strong capitalist, free market countries with strong property rights who have strong social and welfare programs. So we have to educate them better. We have to give them more of options in the future. We've got to stop lining. We've got to stop stealing from their future. Remember that statistic the other week where house prices were up 1500% over 30 years and wages about 500%? We're going to see more of that. I tweeted this morning that inflation is the most destructive thing we do in our economy. It's the most destructive thing we do. It's the most unfair thing. If you want to tax the rich, do you want to really tax the rich? Just get rid of inflation. Just get rid of it. It's the most unfair, destructive thing we do. And any government that runs inflationary economics is somebody that doesn't actually care about the poorest in society because it affects them the most. I will go on about this forever, but, yeah, we got to build something for our kids.

[Conor]

I think the most important thing in life is purpose, finding a purpose, especially for kids. What am I going to do when I'm older? It's the hardest question, right. Because you have no idea. And there's this massive world out there. You just want to feel useful. Right. And I think all these policies directly affect your purpose. When you have no purpose, I think it leads you down a place of what's the point. Right.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Conor]

Which is exactly what. Which is exactly what probably sprung this conversation.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Conor]

If you know what I mean.

[Joe]

I know exactly what you mean.

[Conor]

Yeah.

[Joe]

Yeah. We can't talk about it, but yeah.

[Conor]

Well, give these kids purpose.

[Joe]

Yeah, give. Yeah, and, and let's. I mean, come watch the. Your. We should cover your party at some point. Go and watch all the videos from the. Your party clown conference over the weekend. I mean, look, democracy is brilliant. It allows people to establish political parties and groups of people with similar ideas come together, but it is a complete clown show. They're calling each other comrades and arguing over every. It's just, it's just a clown show. But I think that's also people who lack purpose. And we, what we need to do is build strong, resilient, tough young people. I mean it's, it's like why Andrew Tate became popular. And I think he's been. Yeah, I'm not a fan. I think he's done a great job for 12 year olds, given them purpose. But we need something for when kids actually start to mature. We need inspirational people, people who teach them about like, life is tough, it's hard out there. If you want to be successful, you're going to have to work hard. You might have to do a job for free or you might have to get low pay and you might have to read books and put a lot of hours in. You're not just going to wake up a CEO one day. So. Yeah, I'm with you. But look, I also want, we should talk about this Switzerland thing because I think democracy is broken in our country. I go back to that point of four lies can build a generation of decay. And I know calling a broken manifesto a lie is a stretch, but I kind of mean it. 4 lies can build a generation of decay. Do we want four more lies? Four more elections built on fake manifestos? Have another generation of the cabin. What state will this country be in in 20 years? I mean, if I'm lucky to still be alive, I'll be retired. But Connie, I mean, you should have kids by then. And what world are we building for then? And, and this is. I think we have to trust. If we trust our voters to vote in a party, can we trust them a bit more? I believe in the wisdom of the crowd. We, we did two interviews with people who live in Switzerland, one with the mayor of a canton. But they talk to us about how the Swiss democracy works in that if parliament passes a new law and citizens that oppose it get 100,000 signatures, and I think that's on constitutional changes that government proposes. It has to be done within 100 days, but that allows a referendum on it. But they can also do popular initiatives where if somebody wants A law Change, they get 100,000 valid signatures. That can also lead to a referendum. And this gives the ordinary citizen a way they can force debates, force discussion about really important subjects. And it puts limits on government. It kind of forces a bit more honesty. Why can't we have that as a country? It's working for Switzerland. People who live there seem to be happy the country is prosperous. Why can't we have it? What's this?

[Conor]

Oh, you just talked about broken democracy. We've got broken democracy. And this is the part in the Tucker interview I found the most interesting. Right, shoot.

[Joe]

Right, so there's a difference. Not against an authoritarian state.

[Tucker Carlson]

No, no, no, that's a straightforward.

[Joe]

This one is not.

[Tucker Carlson]

That's a straightforward ethereum.

[Joe]

This is a flawed democracy.

[Tucker Carlson]

No, this is global homo.

[Conor]

That is.

[Joe]

No, no, this is global homo.

[Tucker Carlson]

It is. It's global homo. This is what you mean. I'm going to tell you.

[Joe]

I'm gonna tell you.

[Tucker Carlson]

This is a concept that you need to understand. This is the. Yes, you do. This is the authoritarianism of the present and future. And it's not. It's the feline, passive aggressive female version that doesn't tell you what it is. They don't march into your town in jack boots and put a rifle against your face. And they do that for sure. It's much more straightforward.

[Joe]

And they kill you.

[Tucker Carlson]

It's as fuck.

[Joe]

You fall off a building suddenly, oh.

[Tucker Carlson]

You kill tons of people. You kill tons of people.

[Joe]

I don't disagree.

[Tucker Carlson]

Oh, yeah, you do.

[Conor]

A lot.

[Tucker Carlson]

Yeah, right, so let's stop with the killing people, because you kill tons of people. But as you well know, because you know the people who do it, and I do too. No, I'm saying there's something more offensive about an authoritarianism that will not admit what it is. So instead, people are arrested here and thrown into jail. And I've been to Belmarsh prison.

[Joe]

It's awful.

[Conor]

I've been there.

[Joe]

So it's funny because when you brought that up, I saw it differently from you at first. At first I was like, firstly, Tucker is ridiculous, but I kind of like the way he does it in the way he gets you to a point. But I was like, tucker, you're being ridiculous, because they have the chilling effect in Russia. You don't say anything because, you know, you might get thrown off a bridge or arrested or taken up to northern Siberia and killed, as happened with Navalny. And when I was thinking about that, I was avoiding the point that I think got you straight away. Right.

[Conor]

I found it fascinating. I was like, at least they're telling you what it is. Right?

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Conor]

Whereas here, it's like the undertone. And they're going to paint it. It's the juicy burger. Right. When we talk about show a juicy burger but deliver a steak, they're showing a steak but delivering this messy soup. Right. And no one, no one actually under. I don't think, because it's not face value. You live in Russia, right? We live under authoritarian state. That is what it is. It's shit. But at least I know here we're gonna paint it as democracy. But actually, unless you really understand we're sinking into authority authoritarianism.

[Joe]

Well, we already are.

[Conor]

This is the point. And it's scary because it's like, I don't think the general population understand this.

[Joe]

Some do. Some of the psychos we hang out with, you know? But no, I. It is. I don't want either. Right.

[Conor]

I asked you. Actually, I did. I asked you. I was like, what would you prefer?

[Joe]

Well, I said, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I said I would prefer to have what we have here because I know I can fight it.

[Conor]

Yeah.

[Joe]

I can't fight it in Russia. If I'm Navalny, who was the best chance they had? They tried to poison him. Then they arrested him and then they murdered him. Okay, I'm sorry, Putin, please don't kill me. But here, I know I can. I can fight it. I can make this show here and I can say, look here, you're a bit of a dick. You're a wet wipe. You know, you're not a very good leader. You should probably go. And Rachel Reeves, you're not very experienced. You're kind of incompetent. Incompetent. And Zach Polanski, you're economically illiterate and you're selling pipe dreams that aren't real. Like, I can do all that. And I like that I have the opportunity to have a fight against this, and I want to fight against it because I see the authority and authoritarian threat con. I mean, we should all be aware of the authoritarian threats. I mean, just. Look, David Lammy, wanting to get rid of jury trials for anything outside of rape and murder. The assisted dying bill, Free speech. Free speech. 30 arrests a day like this.

[Conor]

Digital IDs.

[Joe]

Digital IDs. Let's be as clear as possible. We are sleepwalking into authoritarianism. And by the way, this is probably one of those things where I think I sound more like a nutter. Now. I do sound like that guy.

[Conor]

Sure.

[Joe]

In the corners of Facebook, like, everybody's living a nice life, they're getting their Frappuccino and, you know, they're going to work and, you know, what do you want to. Why is Pete always such a weirdo? Why is he always complaining about this stuff? It's like, because you can sleepwalk your way into authoritarianism. And we are. I mean, we are a socialist country now and we are an authoritarian country. And there's two forms of authoritarianism we're living with. We're living with the stuff that's coming down from government, but we're also living with that kind of passive, feline authoritarianism where it goes back to what that point was. It's like, if you're going to become an MP and you are going to try and win an election, it's not what. It's not what people say, it's what they think. You, as an mp, your job is to. Because we don't have robust free speech in this country, your job as an MP is to allow people to speak or speak for them, because they're scared of losing their job or being ostracized or fighting with their family, because these are tough subjects. And so when it comes to somebody going to the ballot box and voting, it's not what they say that matters, it's what they think. And you have to tap into what the nation is thinking. And right now, people are scared to speak up on certain subjects because they have been cancelled, they have lost their jobs, they have been ostracized because we've had this. We've gone into this kind of like, weird liberal world where, like, anyone can be anything. I can be a cat. And so that's the important job we have to do now. This is why it's even more important than ever that politicians have a spine and have a backbone. They stop lying. And. And I think the truth of it is the first politician who comes out and admits their mistakes doesn't lie, has an honest conversation with the public, I think they will absolutely clean up. You might not like Rupert Lowe, but I trust he believes everything he's saying, because he's not saying things to be popular, he's saying them because he thinks they're right. It's a bit like the attacks on Tommy Robinson. Tommy says some silly things sometimes, but he has tapped in to the working class people who've been ignored by this country, who've been shafted by this country. And that's a really interesting point going back to Zach Polanski. And we'll talk about Zach Polanski. We'll make another show.

[Conor]

We'll.

[Joe]

We'll die. He won't. Zach, I've offered you a interview. I know I'm not big and famous, but we'll have a good chat.

[Conor]

But anyway, clearly doesn't care about charity, does he?

[Joe]

He probably doesn't even know where I am. Doesn't care. I'm not a big deal. But I'd like to talk to you, Zach. There's some things I agree with you on. I agree with you on Gaza. I agree with you on some other things. I disagree on some things. But anyway, the point is, is what was I saying?

[Conor]

I don't. I wanted to bring it back to the Swiss model, though. This is why we were bringing up the Swiss one.

[Joe]

I know I was making a point.

[Conor]

Because democracy is broken and I think that's because the people don't have the power anymore.

[Joe]

Well, they don't trust model.

[Conor]

You have that thing where 100,000 votes, if you don't like something parliament's going to pass through, you can vote against it. 100,000 votes. They don't do it. Digital IDs. We don't want it, don't do it. The David Lammy. We don't want it, don't do it. You have that choice, right?

[Joe]

And with that, you get a more disciplined government, you get lower taxes, less centralized bureaucracy, more trust in institutions, fewer extreme pendulum swings and higher political.

[Conor]

That's how you fight authoritarianism. That's how you beat it.

[Joe]

Higher political engagement. And this, this is the role of MPs. Now let's come, let's bring it back. This is all comes back to accountability. I may be on my own. I don't know if anyone watching this agrees or thinks the same. I may just be completely on my own, but I'm fed up of being let down through, through the entire four or five years of a government seeing another set of manifestos and watching people backtrack and lie and break promises. I mean, I haven't voted in three. I want to vote in the next election. I do. I've got a stake in this. My kids have got a stake in this. But I need some accountability. And I want it to be an act of law. I want there to be penalties for politicians who lie. I want there to be penalties for parties who break their election promises. I want it if a party comes in with a sound economic plan and a plan for accountability, or if a party comes in and goes, do you know what we're going to make this country more democratic. We're going to adopt some of these things in Switzerland that are clearly working, that have made the Swiss people happy. That's led to. To lower taxes, more political. Political engagement with the public. Why would anyone vote against it? I know why. And I've got your number, politicians. I know why. You want to preserve the power you've got. You want to keep your system safe. But, like, it isn't working, let's all be. Let's just, all of us be honest. It is clearly not working. And it's not working because you get away with lying to us over and over again. You get away with raising our taxes, you get away with economic decline because you're all doing it. If it's not working, let's fix it. Let's have accountability. Let's have people. Let's send politicians to jail for lying to us. Let's have reelections if you break your manifesto promises. This should not be radical. Telling the truth shouldn't be a radical act. That's what I think. Anything else?

[Conor]

That's it.

[Joe]

All right, that's it. Thank you, everyone, for watching, listening. Please do send us any questions you've got. Any. I'll try my best to answer them. Subscribe, share. Get back to us. Let us know what you think. Thanks, Connor. We'll see you all soon. Peace out.