PMQs #009 – Jenrick's Defection Changes Nothing

Summary

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The Peter McCormack Show

Episode: PMQs #009 – Jenrick's Defection Changes Nothing
Date: January 19, 2026
Host: Peter McCormack
Guest: Connor

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the high-profile defection of Robert Jenrick from the Conservative Party to Reform, examining what—if anything—such moves actually change in the landscape of British politics. Peter and Connor use the event as a springboard for a wide-ranging, unscripted conversation about political disillusionment, the state of the UK economy, personal agency in the political system, and the deeper psychological and societal forces at play behind voting, career ambition, and the desire for "change." They reinforce the notion that the recurring circulation of establishment figures through different parties amounts to surface-level shifts with little real consequence, especially in face of entrenched interests and systemic economic decay.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Jenrick’s Defection: Cosmetic Change or True Shift?

• Jenrick opens (00:00) with a bleak diagnosis of Britain’s economic decline, listing flat or falling wages, eroding industrial base, rising costs, and diminishing opportunities for young people.
• The hosts immediately question the authenticity and impact of his move:
  • Peter (01:14): “How do I stay in politics? Well, if I join Reform, I’m instantly going to be a minister when they… win.”
  • Connor (02:40): “It’s slimy. Well, slimy, snakey. Everything’s backhanders… There’s no truth and honor.”
• The consensus is that Jenrick’s shift is more self-serving than principled, emblematic of a broader pattern where establishment players switch jerseys but not the game.

2. Economic Decline and Political Promises

• The episode repeatedly returns to Britain's economic malaise:
  • Jenrick’s speech:
    “From 1970 to 2007, real wages went down by 1/3 every 10 years… Today, 18 to 30 year olds are the first Britons to earn less than their parents.” (00:10, 03:52)
  • Peter (04:51): Praises Jenrick's focus on economics but quickly highlights skepticism: “It’s the only bit I like… Although I’d want to fact check that… not sure if that’s true.”
• The hosts are cynical about all current reformist narratives, emphasizing hollow promises and lack of substantial accountability.

3. Are We Part of the Problem?

• Peter expresses concern about complicity in the political spectacle:
  • Peter (07:04): “Are we part of the problem?... If we came out and said… I might even vote for Reform… are we just part of the problem? Are we getting sucked in to just supporting the establishment?”
• The show’s role as media and “narrative factory” becomes a meta-topic.

4. “Decaying Choices” and The Pace of Decline

• Peter (11:06): “I don’t think with Reform you are voting for anything but decay. I think the only thing you’re voting for is the pace of decay and who they point the decay at.”
• The implication is voters aren’t really getting change, just marginally different versions of decline.

5. Voter Apathy, Boycotting the System, and the "White Pill"

• Both hosts grapple with the sense of futility in participation:
  • Peter (12:51): “I’m not getting sucked in. I haven’t voted in the last three elections. I’m not voting this election.”
  • Argues for demanding clear, specific, and enforceable policies—otherwise, withholds participation.
• Connor and Peter debate the practicalities and philosophical justifications for "flipping the board" (opting out), referencing both personal privilege and the impossibility for many working-class people to do the same.

6. The Real Powers: 150 Men & Systemic Puppetry

• A clip from Chamath Palihapitiya (28:02) posits that roughly 150 men truly control the world behind the curtain, reducing politics to theater:
  • “Anybody who wants to go into politics, they’re all fucking puppets…”
• This perspective reinforces a strong sense of fatalism and black-pilled futility regarding meaningful change via elections.

7. Society’s Manufactured Desires & Personal Fulfillment

• The conversation becomes existential, exploring what actual happiness and fulfillment mean if politics and consumerism are a rigged game.
• Peter (48:09): “Maybe the white pill is going, what do I actually need in life? What do I actually… not what does my ego need? Or what perception do I want the world to have?”
• They reference Rene Girard’s “mimetic desire” and the story of the penguin from Werner Herzog (“march of the penguins”) as metaphors for courageously opting out.

8. Cycles of Resentment and Selfishness

• The hosts question if modern society forces everyone to become more selfish, and whether thin or empty desires—status, recognition—are what ultimately keep political and economic systems running.

9. Accountability and Radical Alternatives

• Repeatedly, Peter asks what mechanisms would actually enforce governmental promises:
  • “If you’ve materially not delivered… if you borrow one penny more than you said… new election, referendum, I don’t care.” (17:45)
• Fantasizes about decentralized, locally focused political models as a way to "flip the board" and restore agentic power.

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Memorable Quotes & Key Timestamps

• Robert Jenrick (00:10):
  “From 1970 to 2007, real wages went down by 1/3 every 10 years. Since then, they flatlined… Today, 18 to 30 year olds are the first Britons to earn less than their parents.”

• Peter McCormack (06:08):
  “They're part of the problem. They are the establishment. And I just think, Con, the whole thing's got to go.”

• Connor (08:09):
  “But I don't think we are part of the problem because the first thing we're saying is we're not buying it.”

• Peter McCormack (11:06):
  “I don’t think with Reform you are voting for anything but decay. I think the only thing you’re voting for is the pace of decay and who they point the decay at.”

• Chamath Palihapitiya (clip) (28:02):
  “There’s about 150 people that run the world. Anybody who wants to go into politics, they’re all fucking puppets, okay?... It is unfairly set up for them and their progeny.”

• Peter McCormack (31:58):
  “Just flip the board and stop playing. And so maybe the white pill is... I’m just not gonna play, I’m not gonna play this fucking game anymore.”

• Connor (48:09):
  “Once your eyes are opened, you’ve taken the red pill. Very hard to get past that with… just the daily going about your life… when I get strung up on that 150 people, it’s like, what's the point?”

• Peter McCormack (53:03):
  “Maybe the White Pillar is just not caring anymore... Maybe it's just, I don't care anymore.”

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Topical Timestamps

• 00:00 – 01:10: Jenrick’s “decline” speech
• 01:14 – 02:54: Motives behind political defection
• 03:38 – 04:51: Analyzing economic decline claims
• 07:04 – 08:09: Media complicity and manipulation
• 11:06 – 13:38: Voter apathy, “pace of decay”
• 15:11 – 18:27: Demands for political accountability
• 28:02 – 29:18: Chamath clip (real power behind the curtain)
• 31:12 – 33:27: “Monopoly Socialism” and “flipping the board”
• 48:09 – 50:03: Personal happiness, existential outlook
• 53:03 – 54:33: Not caring, “the white pill” and detachment

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Notable Moments

• Rene Girard’s “mimetic desire” and the Werner Herzog penguin story drawn as metaphors for existential agency (51:32 – 53:03)
• “Monopoly Socialism” anecdote: Used to express the futility of certain systemic games (31:11 – 31:57)
• Real talk about local versus national political power (45:41 – 47:05)
• Peter’s blunt apathy: “I haven’t voted in the last three elections. I’m not voting this election.” (12:51)

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Tone and Style

The conversation is passionate, wry, and sometimes exasperated. Peter and Connor oscillate between nihilistic black-pilling, sardonic humor, and moments of introspective clarity (“the white pill”). The tone is direct, frequently swearing, and unvarnished, purposely avoiding political platitudes or easy certainty.

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Final Thoughts

Peter and Connor ultimately express deep skepticism of the current political game—seeing apparent changes like Jenrick's defection as mostly cosmetic—and point toward the need for either radical accountability or personal disengagement ("flipping the board”). The episode challenges listeners to recognize the fundamental shallowness of systemic change driven by establishment actors, advocating either for a principled boycott of the system, or creating new, locally-empowered models of agency and fulfillment.

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Summary by The Peter McCormack Show Podcast Summarizer

Transcript

[Robert Jenrick]

It's time for the truth.

[Peter McCormack]

The truth.

[Robert Jenrick]

Britain has been in decline. Britain is in decline.

[Peter McCormack]

That's also true.

[Robert Jenrick]

From 1970 to 2007, real wages went down by 1/3 every 10 years. Since then, they flatlined. At the turn of the millennium, the average British was earning more than twice as much as the average pole. By 2031, we are on track to be poorer. Outside of London and the southeast, our economy is closer to Bulgaria's than to Germany's. Today, 18 to 30 year olds are the first Britons to earn less than their parents.

[Peter McCormack]

Generic, for whatever reason, has decided to quit the Conservatives and join Reform. We know that he needs to own his mistakes, right? But is he, do you look at him and go on that Jamrick, he seems like authentic guy. He seems like a stand up guy, cares about this country, the community. Or as he looked at the Conservatives and said, all right, I'm the favorite to become leader of a party that's dead.

[Connor]

How do I stay in politics?

[Peter McCormack]

How do I stay in politics? Well, if I join Reform, I'm instantly going to be a minister when they, you know, win. And I'm probably a good chance of being the next guy if you know, when Nigel's done. Hello. Hello. Welcome to PMQs. Hope you're doing well. I'm your host, Peter McCormack. I've got your boy, the radical Connor. How you doing, boy?

[Connor]

I'm good. You could, you got to stop calling me that.

[Peter McCormack]

You could dress up a bit for the show, look a bit casual.

[Connor]

I'm not 45, Matt.

[Peter McCormack]

I wish I was 45. I wish I was 45. All right, world of politics. Yesterday, the worst kept secret in Westminster, Robert Generic was actually kicked out of the Conservative Party by Kemi Badenoch and then a few hours later had a press conference with Reform and he has defected and the deck chairs are getting rearranged again. And I don't know, I don't know about you lot, I don't know about you, Connor. I'm just so tired of all this. It's so easy to just look at it and go, this is amazing. This is great. This is great for reform or this is terrible for the Conservatives. I just think it's like that. You sent me that tweet this morning from re put low and I'm like, just the whole thing needs to go.

[Connor]

I don't want to sit there and it's slimy. Well, slimy, snakey. Everything's backhanders.

[Peter McCormack]

It's the same people.

[Connor]

There's no truth and honor Yeah, I was watching it.

[Peter McCormack]

So I was watching it. And we're gonna bring up the clip of his press conference because there was one really fascinating part of it for me is that he started on the money. It's a thing we talk about a lot I care about. I'm not going to vote unless a party deals with debt. I'm not going to, I'm not going to vote if a party doesn't deal with inflation. I'm, I'm bored of this merry go round of political parties who promise hope and change and all we get is poorer and poorer. I'm not going to play this stupid game anymore. But yeah, Joe, let's do it. Let's start with the clip and then talk about the bullshit. So this is Generic's press conference with Reform with Nigel.

[Robert Jenrick]

Well, good evening ladies and gentlemen. Thank you, Nigel. It's time for the truth.

[Peter McCormack]

The truth.

[Robert Jenrick]

Britain has been in decline. Britain is in decline.

[Peter McCormack]

That's also true.

[Robert Jenrick]

From 1970 to 2007, real wages went down by 1/3 every 10 years. Since then they flatlined. At the turn of the millennium, the average Brit was earning more than twice as much as the average pole. By 2031, we're on track to be poorer. Outside of London and the southeast, our economy is closer to, to Bulgaria's than to Germany's. Today, 18 to 30 year olds are the first Britons to earn less than their parents. Houses cost more here than in any other OECD country. We have the highest energy prices in the developed world. Our heavy industry has more than halved since 2003. Our service sector is exposed to AI.

[Peter McCormack]

Alright, we're. So this is the only bit I like. It's the only bit I like is that he came straight out and talked about the economics because I think everything else is a distraction. I do. Although I'd want to fact check that. He said. Did he say from 1970 till 2010 real wages went down a third every decade?

[Connor]

I cannot remember.

[Peter McCormack]

I think he said that. I'm not sure if that's true. I'm not sure. I'd like to check that. But I was thinking about it in two different ways. So the first way I was thinking about this was, okay, what's the positive here? This is a guy who was tipped to be the next leader of the Conservatives when eventually CCHQ gives up on Kemi Badenok, he's the favorite to be the leader. And so his defection to Reform, essentially, I mean that's, this is terminal for the Conservative Party. They're Finished. And so I was thinking about, this is good for reform, some good front bench experience, you know, a political operative who understands how Westminster works. But then I was also thinking, this is just the same people, the same people who keep joining Reform, who fucked our country up. They're part of the problem. They are the establishment. And I just think, con, the whole thing's got to go.

[Connor]

It frustrates me because I think the majority of people that have gone to Reform didn't go for there to just be another Conservative Party. No one wants defections. We wanted new, unique people who have never been in politics before with a little bit of something about them, some business experience or something like that.

[Peter McCormack]

People don't.

[Connor]

People don't want defection. Someone like you, like, it's. It's frustrating, very frustrating.

[Peter McCormack]

So we had Simon Dixon in here. So the thing I was thinking about, Con.

[Connor]

Yeah.

[Peter McCormack]

Normally me and Connor discuss these shows on the way. I was like, I'm not discussing this one. I want to talk fresh. So the thing I was thinking about with this one is, are we part of the problem?

[Connor]

How so?

[Peter McCormack]

With Simon Dixon, we talked about how there's this big financial machine that runs the world and all these people are just puppets and it doesn't matter whether it's left or right, they want you arguing over the narratives. And when you're arguing over narratives, you. You don't see over there that they're just quietly stealing all your money. And if we're just making a show on it, if we came out and said, you know what, this is great for reform, I might even vote for reform. Now, talking about the money, con, are we just part of the problem? Are we getting sucked in to just supporting the establishment, continue being the establishment? Because the thing about reform was that the big hope that was like, they're anti establishment. You know, Nigel came out was like, we don't want to be part of Europe. We had the Brexit vote, we got our sovereignty back. And now he's saying we don't want to be part of the echr. He was anti establishment, but his party is starting to look more and more like the establishment.

[Connor]

Totally. But I don't think we are part of the problem because the first thing we're saying is we're not buying it.

[Peter McCormack]

But could we be part of the problem?

[Connor]

Oh, 100%. You could easily be part of the problem. You could easily say this is the best thing reform could have done. They've literally nabbed the best thing the conservatives have. At a time when conservatives are Coming back a little bit and reform are dropping, but it's all bullshit, let's be honest.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah, it's really. It's really bothering me. I was watching, you know what?

[Connor]

Because it's all about narratives, right? Yeah. And they do a very good job of painting these beautiful narratives. And it's. How do you not get brainwashed?

[Peter McCormack]

Do you know, the other thing is, I don't want buyers remorse. Trump is a perfect example. Right. He absolutely crushed the last election, convinced people that he was going to drain the swamp again. He was going to deal with the government debt. Doge was going to find out all the corruption. Actually, way more work has been done on that by people like Nick Shirley.

[Connor]

Right.

[Peter McCormack]

And now he's just. He's just out there picking fights globally. And look at the buyer's remorse from, like, the libertarians. Dave Smith. Sorry to keep bringing Dave Smith up in the show, but he was one of those people. He was a bit pro Trump.

[Connor]

Well, yeah, because they had favors that needed to be done.

[Peter McCormack]

Well, the libertarian favor for Russ Ulbricht, but also I think he believed he was going to drain the swamp.

[Connor]

He was actually, for a libertarian, it's kind of. It will always be the best of the worst options because their ideal scenarios, neither party gets in.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah, but the point is, it's like that thing you sent me this morning. Do you want to pick the best of the worst options? I don't want to pick the best of the worst option.

[Connor]

Yeah, but that will always be the libertarian viewpoint. No, no.

[Peter McCormack]

I think the libertarian viewpoint is like, fuck that. I hate the government. I'm not going to vote for you. I'm anti government. I'm not voting. Some of them came over, but then.

[Connor]

You don't get any leeway within decision making.

[Peter McCormack]

Sure.

[Connor]

But libertarians, so they kind of have to play the game a little bit. That's what Angela McArdle said.

[Peter McCormack]

They will play the game if there is a benefit, if they can make change. But the point is, I think Dave Smith has got kind of buyer's remorse now because he's out there. He's like slagging off Trump and rightly criticizing all his failures and seems like he wants to go to war with everyone. And the posturing with Greenland and Iran and Venezuela. I think Davis buys remorse. I think we're so fundamentally broken in this country that I think the politics is so fundamentally broken that if I said, you know what, reform is the best of the worst options. They're talking about the economics, they're talking about fixing cultural Issues in the country, they're talking about the size of the government. It sounds like something that I want, but I don't think with reform you are voting for anything but decay. I think the only thing you're voting for is the pace of decay and who they point the decay at. Yeah, right. And it's like green. With Polanski, I think he accelerates the decay and he points the decay at the middle, upper middle class. Because the rich will leave under Polanski, because no one wants communism. But I think under reform, I can't see a world where they deal with the economics in a way that we no longer are running deficits. So they will still borrow, we still have massive debt, we will still have massive inflation. There's nothing they have said to me that said, oh, you should vote for me. So if anything, yeah, I can say something that really piss them, really pissing people off. If I didn't hear a proper sound policy from reform, which was about dealing with the economic policy in a way which gets rid of inflation, which gets rid of the debt. I'd rather. I'd rather Polanski one.

[Connor]

This is what I say, accelerate.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah, yeah, because you're an accelerationist.

[Connor]

Well, it will wake enough people up. I don't think we've ever had more people realize what a shit show it all kind of is than under this past two years with this Labour government. It's pissed people off to the point where they are getting to that stage where it's like, I'm not. I don't want to be part of this.

[Peter McCormack]

Do you think this might come up with your boys? Connor's out with the boys tonight because it might come up. Can you just like test the waters a little bit? Just do some market research.

[Connor]

No, they don't care.

[Peter McCormack]

You're not going to be like, boys, I need to talk to you about inflation.

[Connor]

No, I'm the 50 year old of the group. Yeah.

[Peter McCormack]

I'm just like, I'm not getting sucked in. I'm not getting sucked into this. I don't want buyer's remorse. I haven't voted in the last three elections. I'm not voting this election. And anyone who listens and comments like, oh, well, if you, if you don't vote, you know, that's a disgrace because people fought for your vote. Or if you don't vote, then the other people. I don't care who gets in anymore. It's not like any party has done anything to make my. Well, actually, it's bullshit. That's the thing. About this. They actually do make my life better. Now I'm an asset holder, but I don't want my life better at the cost of everyone else. Right, I want your life better. Okay, so if I not, not one of these parties has done anything to improve the world to which you came into. And now you're a young adult in. I don't want it. Fuck that. I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. And it makes me.

[Connor]

But then I just come to cool now. What, so you don't want to vote? What then?

[Peter McCormack]

Well, you know what I think? I think I want a party to come out with a policy of reforms on the economics of our country whereby it is pro growth, pro business, pro entrepreneur. And not just say it like, show me the policies. What are the things you're actually going to change? What are the things you are going to do as a party to make change? And how are you going to hold. I think. You know what I think the most important thing is? If you've got the balls to do it, you're going to come out and say you're going to do it. How are you going to hold yourself accountable? We've just had a Labor Party that came out and said no tax rises on working people. We've had two budgets and we've had two tax rises on working people. So how are you gonna hold yourself accountable to the mandate? Cause if I voted for you and you come out and you say, well, we're going to be pro business and we're gonna strip back bureaucracy. Okay, what are you stripping back? And we're gonna be pro investment. Okay, what are you gonna do to drive investment in the country? And we, and we're gonna be pro entrepreneur. Okay, what benefits does the entrepreneur get? Tell me. And if you fail, how are we holding you accountable? And how are you gonna do that without borrowing loads of money, driving up inflation again, making everyone poor, how are you gonna do it? Tell me. Please tell me. For the love of God, tell me. Because I am not giving you my vote. What's this?

[Connor]

So this is on the reform website. This is some of their policies.

[Peter McCormack]

Government spending needs major reform. Critical reform needed in first hundred days. Bank of England must stop paying interest to commercial banks on QE reserves. That will save 35 billion. I don't know what, I don't know what the implication of that would be.

[Connor]

And I will just add, they have come out and said there will be zero tax cuts until the economy is stable, which is positive.

[Peter McCormack]

No, I want tax cuts now.

[Connor]

Yeah, but if you do tax cuts before you save, that's when the market goes. At the same time you need to save first. I think they'll be insensible with that.

[Peter McCormack]

Okay. Every department must slash wafer spending, cut bureaucracy, improve efficiency and negotiate better value procurement without touching frontline services. This will save 50 billion a year. Brexit bonus cut unnecessary regulations, cut foreign aid by 50%, collect billions in unpaid tax. Okay, tell me how you're going to do it. Tell me. These are just promises, of course.

[Connor]

But then, then we, it's like how, how can you ever.

[Peter McCormack]

How, all right, how are you going.

[Connor]

To make yourself until they're in power? You're never going to see if they do it or not.

[Peter McCormack]

How are you going to make yourself accountable?

[Connor]

So that's, that's a good point. I like that one.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah. How you can say, when you say you're going to do this and we get to your first budget, are we going to see any tax increases?

[Connor]

So at that stage, if nothing had been done, would you like them to step down?

[Peter McCormack]

I don't know. Do you? Tell me how they make you tell me.

[Connor]

You're the voter. You're the one saying you're not going to vote at the minute.

[Peter McCormack]

This show is brought to you by my lead sponsor, Aaron the AI Cloud for the next big thing. Iron builds and operates next generation data centers and delivers cutting edge GPU infrastructure all powered by renewable energy. Now, if you need access to scalable GPU clusters or are simply curious about who is powering the future of AI, just check out iren.com to learn more, which is Irene.com. i mean, I would like it. I think every political party should put forward their budget plan ahead of the election so you can look side by side. You know, this is what we're going to do as reform. This is what the tax receipts is how we're going to spend money and this is how much we expect to borrow. And the Green Party, Zach Polanski, this is how much I'm going to borrow and this is what I expect to do. I think everyone should put forward their budget. So when you vote, you vote based on what they say they're going to do.

[Connor]

Sure.

[Peter McCormack]

No, no, bear with me. You asked, you asked. Okay. You come to your first budget, okay. If you've materially not delivered, if you borrow one penny more than you said you were going to do in your budget, if you raise one tax more, then you said you're going to do referendum, new election, I don't care.

[Connor]

Okay. That makes you accountable 100%. But I would just like to put it in personal terms. Our football club, we do a budget at the start of the year. How often by the end of the year is that budget? The same doesn't matter.

[Peter McCormack]

It's my money, it's our football club's money. We've got our savings that we can use. Country doesn't have any savings.

[Connor]

But there are always going to be things that come up where if it be financial crises, something like a virus.

[Peter McCormack]

I've got great answer for you. Okay, first one, we're a private enterprise. That is our money. We choose to spend it how we want. This is public money, this is our money. Okay, I don't, if the football club fails and we need more money, I don't go to football club next door or someone else and put my hand in the pocket and go, yeah, I've made a mistake at the football club. I'm just going to take some of your money. Yeah, I got my budgets wrong. I screwed up. I don't do that. I have to go and either borrow it or invest, inject my own money and my own risk.

[Connor]

So I just wonder if it's really hard to be that future.

[Peter McCormack]

I think if you make promises, you don't make the promises if you don't think you can keep them. Like if you, if you think you, if you want to run the country, you should surround yourself with people good enough to make these predictions, Go into the budgets, go into what's been spent, go into where we're spending money, Put a team together and say, here you go, here's our budget. And if you can't keep to that and it's a referendum and you might say, oh, there's a crisis, the government needs to borrow money. I don't know what crisis there is. There's an earthquake, we've got to rebuild the country. Well, you go for a referendum, people might go, well, yeah, okay, I agree with that. Because there's a crisis. We don't have a crisis at the moment. Beyond the state itself, knowing that when they get in power, they've got three levers to retain power, which is creation of money, infringing on our civil liberties and regulation. And what happens under every government, they create more money, they infringe on our civil liberties and they create more red tape. So I'm like, be accountable, give us, give us Swiss style referendum.

[Connor]

When you look at our debt, do you think you can actually unwind that?

[Peter McCormack]

Yes.

[Connor]

Was it you that told me recently, like, if we saved 100 billion a year. It would still like take shit ton.

[Peter McCormack]

Amount of time to we pay more that interest. Debt interest now I think is about 110 billion a year.

[Connor]

There was something you told me about like it would take like 130 years just to get back to.

[Peter McCormack]

No, you wouldn't even that. So debt interest a year under Rachel Reeves, I think it's gone up from 95 billion to 110 billion. My numbers might be slightly out, but it's about 110 billion a year on debt interest. So if we pay 110 billion off, we're standing still. We're going to pay 120 billion to pay 10 billion off and that's not enough. But if we start paying it off, at least we're in the right direction. But where is the plan to pay enough? I guarantee you this. I would be willing to make you a bet right now debt will increase under reform government.

[Connor]

Well, it will increase under any government, but yes, reform, just slightly less.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah. Is it pace of change and who they point at?

[Connor]

But this is like, it seems like such a long road ahead trying to pay that debt off.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah.

[Connor]

And it's three trillion. Exactly. Are we not better just cutting our losses and starting over?

[Peter McCormack]

Whoa, no, you're talking about default on that. If you default on the debt, you'll have. The currency will crash. People's lives will be materially destroyed. I know what you're saying. Go look at other countries that have done that. It is, it is not good going at what's happening in Egypt or look what happened in Malawi, all the places. No, we don't want to do that. We bring in over a trillion a year. Okay, 1.1 trillion a year. We can start paying off our debt, plus we can grow our economy. But we have to make really tough choices. You and I have choices. Do we stay in this country? We have a choice. Well, I would, I would happily stay in this country, pay more tax. I'd happily become an mp. I'd happily take one for the team and go and become part of something where there is a direct plan to restore this country to what it should be. Okay, I would happily be part of that. But we have to deal with this debt. And I think under reform. Do you know about how, how the money comes into the system? So the way it works is the government decides what it wants to spend money on. They spend it first. When there's a shortfall, they borrow that money and they use taxes to control the consequences. It's not like you you know when you get paid at the end of the month and you're like, you pay your rent and you pay for your.

[Connor]

Car, which I've paid now, yeah, four months late.

[Peter McCormack]

And do you still owe your sister some money? Yeah, I know about that. You borrowed off your sister to pay your rent.

[Connor]

I'm only allowed to take a certain amount out of the machine each day.

[Peter McCormack]

Is she charging you interest?

[Connor]

Is she fucked?

[Peter McCormack]

He said, no, I do then. So. But you get paid, you pay your rent, you pay your car and then, you know you've got left and you choose either to save some or, you know, or spend everything you've got. Right. Well, imagine it was this way. Imagine at the start of the month, you just decided all the stuff you wanted to do and you get to the end of the month, I've got enough, you just go and take out somebody else's pocket. That's the way the government works, right?

[Connor]

Yeah. I get chucked in prison for that.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we get chucked in prison if we don't give them our money and we've become their piggy bank. And that's the point is they spend first. They always overspend because they can never afford all the things they want to do. And so then they go to the bank of England, say, we'd like to borrow some more money, please. Just goes on that big never ending debt pile. And so, and then they just use. The way taxes work is. Yes, it's, it's really to deal with consequences and control inflation. That's what it's there for. And so I guarantee that reform will borrow money. They're not going to come and go, right, day one, we only spend what we got. They're going to spend money, they're going to have to spend money to do the things they want to do. And I don't want to become part of that because if that's the case, which it will be, what does it mean we're going to get, we're going to get more debt, more inflation.

[Chamath]

And.

[Peter McCormack]

We'Re going to be poor. That's why I think whoever you vote for now, you're voting for poorer.

[Connor]

Yes, but we have to be honest about the fact is, if we started paying off the debt, it will be a rough few years.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah, okay.

[Connor]

And that's a lot easier for someone in your position, let's say, than someone in the lower class who's just getting by. So they've got a, they've got a voting incentive here.

[Peter McCormack]

Sure.

[Connor]

A dilemma. And I don't think they would rather. It's a tough option to go find. The next 10 years are going to be shit, but it's for the future. I don't think people think like that.

[Peter McCormack]

Think about it like wartime footing where young people had to go off to war to fight for a country and they just did. Selfless, selfless. Not knowing they were coming back. I think like that. I think this is kind of wartime mentality. As a nation, we have to say, we have to accept that if we continue to keep growing the debt, things are not going to get better. They haven't for decades and they're not going to get better. The trajectory of this country is very clear. It's very obvious. 45 millionaires are leaving a day. Smart, bright young people leaving. Everyone's fighting. Companies are closing down everywhere. Taxes are going up. Services are not materially improving. Most of them are getting worse. Every single measure of this country is pretty much going to shit. And so do we just want that slow death by a thousand cuts or do we want to go, no, I'm done with. I'm done. I'm so done with this? We, as a country, we come together and we accept that debt is evil. In this scenario, debt is. It's like chains around the neck of this country. If we don't deal with this, it's going to get worse. So let's deal with it. And we're all in it together. Tax me more. Tax you more. We have to lose some public services, but we start paying off the debt, we. We start investing in people, we start investing in the country and we start growing it.

[Connor]

Yeah, I just think we've lost a bit of that selflessness in society. I said it even coming up here, right. I think we've lost a bit of class, a bit of that, like, British, you know, honor.

[Peter McCormack]

I'm proud of you to say that.

[Connor]

So it's t. It's gonna. It's a big ask. It might not to ask the public to go back to that way.

[Peter McCormack]

It might not even be possible. It might not be possible because of. It's like that. Put that chamath clip up, let people.

[Chamath]

See that there's about 150 people that run the world. Anybody who wants to go into politics, they're all fucking puppets, okay? There are 150. And they're all men that run the world, period, full stop. They control most of the important assets. They control the money flows. And these are not the tech entrepreneurs now. They are going to get rolled over over the next five to 10 years by the people that are really underneath pulling the strings. And when you get behind the curtain and see how that world works, what you realize is it is unfairly set up for them and their progeny. First order of business is I want to break through and be at that table. That's the first order of business. And the way that I do that is by proving that I can do what they do as well as they do it and then do it better than how they do it, because at the end of the day, they are commercial fucking animals. And they'll open the door out of curiosity and they'll let me stay because I add value. And then once I'm there, I can open the door for other people who can try to do the same thing. So my entire goal now is that is to be in a position to aggregate enough of the capital of the world to then reallocate it against my worldview.

[Connor]

And I'm good music yeah.

[Peter McCormack]

So that's quite interesting, really, because he's basically saying, I've seen behind the veil. I've seen how the world works. There's 150 guys around the world. It's all the asset managers, right? It's the asset managers. They run the world. All the politicians are puppets and they're going to do as we say. So if that's true, even Reform are just puppets. Yeah, yeah. It's also like, quite scary. It's like, I want to be one of those guys. I want to be one of 150 people who run the world. Kind of weird. And so. So then I think completely differently. Connor, what are we even doing if there's 150 people who run the world like this? Well, we can't change any of this. They're going to do what they're going to do anyway. Right. If those 150 people run the world, it doesn't matter if it's Polanski or Nigel Farage, because they're going to say, well, your country needs capital. We've got the capital. These are the conditions under which we put the capital in your country. So this is all just theater, of course. Yeah. So, like, why are we even bothering?

[Connor]

But then this is black pill, white pill.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah, but is the.

[Connor]

Yeah, you're going like, I can easily just go, yeah, what's the point of any of this? I'm not going to make any minute difference to the way the world runs at all. But that's a miserable outlook.

[Peter McCormack]

No, no, I think, I think it's more positive than that. Like, think of it as a, as a game. There's a, there's a board in front of us. Do you remember when we played Monopoly Socialism? Yeah, yeah. So Monopoly Social, we bought a version of Monopoly which was Monopoly Socialism.

[Connor]

And no one could win.

[Peter McCormack]

No one could win. It's so fucking fucked. Like whenever we play Monopoly, I usually win, but I, you know, you cheat, I cheat, I steal from the bank. Even when they were kids and I was still cheating now, but we, I got, I bought Monopoly Socialism.

[Connor]

Classic rich guy stealing from the banks.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah, I'm the chamath of Monopoly. But Monopoly socialism is brilliant because you play it and it's just basically, imagine Zach Polanski made all the rules. So I don't know, Connor stays at Mayfair and he just gets to stay for free. There's a few protests outside the hotel, but you get to stay for free. But you can't win, basically you can't win the game because the money just keeps going round and round around. And the thing about a game that you can't win, what should you really do?

[Connor]

Stop playing?

[Peter McCormack]

Stop playing. Just flip the board and stop playing. And so maybe the white pill is. Maybe I'm not saying it is, but maybe the white pills are gone. I'm just not gonna play, I'm not gonna play this fucking game anymore.

[Connor]

When the game is life, how do you stop playing life?

[Peter McCormack]

Well, no, no, you just play the life you want to play. Think of the life they want us to play. It comes back to not.

[Connor]

So it's the rat race.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah, you know, we've seen it. You come in and you know that rude business.

[Connor]

Go to school, get your A's, go to uni, get a job in a box, buy a box.

[Peter McCormack]

It gets worse than that. Go to uni, get the debt. Yeah, so you're now part of the system. You've got the debt, you start paying that debt off. But you need to get a house, you get that debt. You need the car, you get that debt. And all you are doing is fueling the debt based system. You are a cog in that debt based system. And so maybe the white pill is to go, okay, what can I do to get out of this and what life do I get? Yes. I'm not saying you can't work, I'm not saying you can't have no debt. But when you buy a car, what are you really doing? Are you buying the exact car you want or is any part of that the car the world sees you drive?

[Connor]

You tell me you've got the car.

[Peter McCormack]

You Know what I mean? You know what I'm saying?

[Connor]

Did it make you feel better about yourself?

[Peter McCormack]

It's pretty cool.

[Connor]

For a few years. Exactly.

[Peter McCormack]

But. But Jim. But. But I'm not bothered about the upgrade that's coming. Yeah, I feel a bit empty about that. Okay. Okay.

[Connor]

It's like once you've reached that point, you can't. It's the journey. Right.

[Peter McCormack]

Connor, can we talk about your Christmas present?

[Connor]

No, not really.

[Peter McCormack]

Can we talk about your Christmas present?

[Connor]

No, no.

[Peter McCormack]

Come on. I think it's important.

[Connor]

No, because I've already come to terms with the fact I hate it.

[Peter McCormack]

You're wearing it.

[Connor]

Yeah, I know.

[Peter McCormack]

I think it's so important. I think one of my friends keeps telling me to read Renee Girard. I haven't yet. And there was another video of Chamath talking about Rene Girard and he talks about all these desires we have. Okay. And the desires tend to put you in competition with others and then puts you in conflict. Okay? So in a normal, say, work environment, say we're in a big office, you know, you know you want the car, you know you want the house, you know, you want the, the Hugo Boss suit or the, I don't know, Tom Ford suit and all that shit you want, right? There's a guy next to you and another girl there and they're all going for the same job. And you're actually competing with each other for those thin desires. And there's a bit of resentment that comes between you and maybe politics is just mass resentment for these thin desires we all really want. That's why when you watched it yesterday, okay, so generic, for whatever reason has decided to quit the Conservatives and join reform. We know that he needs to own his mistakes, right? But do you look at him and go that generic? He seems like an authentic guy. He seems like a stand up guy, cares about this country, the community. Or as he looked at the conservatives, said, all right, I'm the favorite to become leader of a party that's dead.

[Connor]

How do I stay in politics?

[Peter McCormack]

How do I stay in politics? Well, if I join reform, I'm instantly going to be a minister when they win. And I'm probably a good chance of being the next guy when Nigel's done. I'm more likely to become prime minister under reform than I am the conservatives. I don't blame him for making that selfish move, but do I think he thinks of the country? What's he going first? Is he personal career goals or country?

[Connor]

It's personal.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah, selfish. So I don't blame him for it. I don't trust him for it. I don't blame him.

[Connor]

I just wonder, though, does the society we've built pushed you to become more selfish because you have to think about yourself because no one else will?

[Peter McCormack]

We should be selfish. No, I agree. We should be selfish in what we want out of life. I'm on about our thin desires. They're a separate thing. Are we creating. Have we created a society that gets us to chase for the wrong things? So let me come back to that point on the politics. So he joins the party. Nigel Farage has called him a fraud. Yeah. Z has been slagging him off, but now he's available. Well, we can forget about that. Buddy, buddy, buddy, buddy. Well, what's their objective? Well, they don't want to have to do a coalition with the Conservatives. I mean, they've literally just speared the Conservatives yesterday. Conservatives are done. Literally one. I think there's one world that could save the Conservatives and that is if they went cap in hand to Rupert Lowe and said, please come and become our leader. I think that would be a real problem for reform. That would be a real threat because I know if Rupert ever did it, he would go and say, yeah, I'll be leader. Right. Cchq, Fuck off. All you Liberals have been in the party for ages. Fuck off. And he would go and completely restore the party, rebuild the party from scratch. But I don't think that's going to happen. So Conservatives are gone, but all these people yesterday, did you watch the press conference with the questions from the like, well, Robert Jenerick, you, the other day said you would never, ever join reform. And. And now you've just joined them, it's like, what do you think he's going to say when you ask him a question while he's still in the Conservatives? Will you ever join reforms? Yeah, actually, I'm thinking about it. I'm actually having a chat with Nigel about it. Of course fucking not. The questions are so dumb.

[Connor]

But then you also said, maybe he should have just said, yeah, well, because you're asking for honesty, so.

[Peter McCormack]

But that goes. That flips to the other point where I'm starting to say is like, you've got to flip the board. Like, if I did it, if I did politics, how long would I last in a party?

[Connor]

Oh, you should be whipped to shit in day one.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah. And yeah, Pete, this is the party. I disagree with it. Well, it's the party lines. Fuck you. I'm not saying that so I wouldn't survive in politics because of that because it's a.

[Connor]

In party politics.

[Peter McCormack]

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[Connor]

I always come back to Steve. He's got three kids, he works on the site, and he's just got to put food on the table. He cannot flip that board.

[Peter McCormack]

Nope. You can flip parts of the board.

[Connor]

What choices does he have?

[Peter McCormack]

Listen, if you're trapped, if you're economically trapped, then I understand why you will vote reform. I totally get it. They're telling you a story you want to hear. Or if you're emotionally and psychologically trapped, I understand why you vote with Zach Klansky. He's telling you what you want to hear. I just think a lot of us who can need to flip the fucking board. When I think about us flipping the board are not playing. It's, it's not like we don't make the show. We just, we just don't support any party unless they deal with the things that we think are most important, which is. But no thing down. Get rid of all of them. They're all useless. They've all got to go.

[Connor]

But then I just come to. No, no, bear with me. Unless, no, sorry, but unless the 150 guys say you can burn it down, it will never be burned down. Nothing stops the train. It still goes forward.

[Peter McCormack]

Well, I need to see, I need to see fully behind the veil and see what that means. But maybe that, maybe that is possible. Or maybe there's a part way that's possible, the Malay way. But I think, I think enough people. What's happening in Iran is people flipped the board, said, we're not playing this anymore. Fuck the mullahs, we're not playing this anymore. They flip the board, right? And every time there's a revolution, it's when people flip the board. So I just think you need to have enough people to flip the board, say, I'm not playing this stupid game anymore. They're going to play in the next election. They're going to vote for reform. Reform are going to win, okay? I want to be the guy who when at their first budget, if they failed, I can go, I told you so. And when it comes to the next election and they have failed and we have got materially poorer, I can go. Told you so. I hope I'm wrong. Like this is one where I don't want to be right. I just think I will be right. And therefore I want to go, I told you so. And then enough people flip the board.

[Connor]

There's still a deep rooted problem though. Venezuela, Iran, flip the board. But there is still a question of what comes next and how it doesn't end up just becoming another version of the same thing within that self.

[Peter McCormack]

This guy come next. All right, not me. Look, my view.

[Connor]

So Iran gets democracy and then corruption.

[Peter McCormack]

Creeps In Iran isn't going to get democracy. The mullahs aren't going to go. I can't see there being a deal. Venezuela isn't going to get democracy yet. It might do.

[Connor]

So what has flipping the board actually done so.

[Peter McCormack]

So I think. I think you're. I don't think you actually know what I mean by flip the board. Right now here in this country, flip the board is no longer playing the game.

[Connor]

Sure, but you use Iran as an example.

[Peter McCormack]

No, I'm just saying. I'm just saying there's other people who flip the board.

[Connor]

Yeah.

[Peter McCormack]

What I mean by flip the board in this country is okay, how do I not play the game?

[Connor]

Right?

[Peter McCormack]

No more debt. Can't do that with the house. Can't pay off the mortgage. So I keep the mortgage. Went to look at a car the other day. If I'd have. If I'd have upgraded that car, it would have been part debt. No, I'm not operating in the car. My only debt is the mortgage. That's it. That's the only one I'm going to have. Okay, well, what else can I do? Well, I can buy bitcoin. It's the only part of the financial system that isn't like, I can transact with you freely and it's a defense against inflation. I can go to the farmer's market or go to the farm and buy my meat and my vegetable. Don't go to Sainsbury's. Stop buying coffees at Starbucks. Like, stop. Stop buying from those that benefit from where the 150 guys put their money. And just, I can be the penguin.

[Connor]

But Steve still has debt on his house, still probably has debt on his car, still has no money at the end of the month to buy bitcoin, still has to shop at Audi because that's where the cheapest food is. He doesn't have the luxury of being able to go to the butchers and pay for the meat there.

[Peter McCormack]

Everyone, most people have some small amount of money they can put into bitcoin. Not everyone, but some people will. Steve might have to give up a pint here or something there and just do that. But what am I meant to do when I say this? Are you saying I'm meant to save everyone else?

[Connor]

No, I'm just. I want to be realistic about it. We're in the luxury position. I think flipping the board is a luxury position.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah, but we might have to become like Argentina was to get the leader we need. Steve is stuck on the board.

[Connor]

So then we're pro green.

[Peter McCormack]

I don't want to vote for Zach Polanski. Guys, a moron. What? Do you know what I want? I would love. I would love there to be a party whereby, if we think locally in Bedford, right. That a party is a decentralized network of local parties. So in Bedford we would build the Bedford first and if I don't know what other north beds would be North Beds first and Clacton would be Clacton first. And Hull would be Hull first. And locally you would get people and their entire job is to focus on their local community and have as little interference from central government as possible. But you would have a central party which does the work in central government. I would love that. I would love to flip the incentives. It's kind of like what Rupert Low. I mean, Rupert Lowe has a town first party now because he's a one seat party. Well, what about a network of Rupert Lowes across the country who run the country for the people? I'd love that. I would support that. That would be flipping the board for me.

[Connor]

Yeah, I don't mind either because I just think what's.

[Peter McCormack]

What, what are we. What, what are we doing, man? What are we like? I think of you. What, what? You know, you've come on, you're on this show now. You're part of it. You've got a mic and a camera and some fans.

[Connor]

More fans.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah, they like you more fuckers. But what, what is this doing for you?

[Connor]

I don't know. I mean, she had the conversation with me the other day, like actually just asking, is it too much? Because I think once your eyes are opened, you've taken the red pill. Very hard to get past that with a lot of like, just the daily going about your life. And it's. It is hard because I don't know, when I get strung up on that 150 people, it's like, what's the point?

[Peter McCormack]

Well, maybe the white.

[Connor]

Why.

[Peter McCormack]

Maybe the white pill is this con. Maybe the white pill is going, what do I actually need in life? What do I actually. Not what I. What does my ego need? Or what do I perception do I want the world to have? Like, what are the moments I'm happy. I know with me, I take your sister to school, you and I go and play tennis. Yesterday we got frozen cryogenically. Sunday. Last Sunday, when I cooked a roast, we just hung out. Like, they're the actual. The moments I really enjoy when we go and play tennis, driving a fancy car around town, people go, oh, he's got a fancy Car that doesn't actually do anything. That's a thin moment. The thick moments. Are those real moments or.

[Connor]

I don't know, I still just come back to. These are like, forget about the car tennis, freezing yourself in a car chamber. They are still luxury things.

[Peter McCormack]

Sure.

[Connor]

And, and I just come back to the reality of 70, 80% won't be able to get out. And they do have to play the rat race because this is the system we are born into. And unless you play that system enough where you make enough money to be able to get out, it's like Monopoly, communism. If you make enough money to be one of the oligarchs, then you can flip the board. But until then you still got to play because you still need to eat.

[Peter McCormack]

I'm not denying that at all. But I, I think not everyone is broken poor. And how many people are contributing to this because of what they think the world needs, the way they want the world to look at them. Like, how much do we do it? How much do other people do it?

[Connor]

Oh, a shit ton. I mean, we've both been to Africa. These are very poor countries, countries. I saw way more happiness there than I do currently in the uk. Yeah, they've got very little. But it's family based, community based, culture based.

[Peter McCormack]

Malawi is one of the most impoverished countries in the world. And I saw kids walking to school, playing around, joking, happy in the street. One of the guys said, he said, we're impoverished here but we're not unhappy, which is impoverished.

[Connor]

Yeah, yeah, but it's a lot easier to not care about your cars and your houses and your Louis Vuitton when you're in the middle of Malawi than it is when you're in London and it's, you're surrounded by it. Your social status is graded on it.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah, but it's that thin desire. Like if we were thinking about this show, like, what's the best job we can do? It's not supporting a political party and saying, oh, if you vote for reform, things are going to change. Is it, I don't know, finding people who've found a pursuit for happiness and sharing their stories. Is it showing people the optionality to exit the system that they can if they want and how they afford it. I think about it a lot. Think about the penguin. Think about the penguin.

[Connor]

Should we show the penguin?

[Peter McCormack]

Should we show Kurt the penguin? You know, the penguin, the Werner Herzog the penguin. Go play it.

[Documentary Narrator]

But one of them caught our eye, the one in the center. He would neither go towards the feeding grounds at the edge of the ice, nor return to the colony. Shortly afterwards, we saw him heading straight towards the mountains, some 70km away. Dr. Ainley explained that even if he caught him and brought him back to the colony, he would immediately head right back for the mountains. But why?

[Peter McCormack]

I think it's like the courage to go, fuck this.

[Connor]

Yeah. But then I put it to you. It's like the penguin dies. Sure. And it's one of my favorite films ever. You linked it to into the Wild? Yeah. Into the World, One of my favorite films ever. It rejects society, goes this, and just leaves. He flips the board big time. But the world that has been created, flipping the boards, I think you die.

[Peter McCormack]

Maybe the White Pillar is just not caring anymore. It's not going on Twitter and ratio in karma and calling some labor MP a. Maybe it's just, I don't care anymore.

[Chamath]

You.

[Peter McCormack]

You can't affect me anymore. One, I don't believe what you say, and two, when you say it, I don't care.

[Connor]

None of it matters.

[Peter McCormack]

You can't. You can't. You can't win me. You can't win me over because what you're saying isn't enough.

[Connor]

Don't take a seat at the circus.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah, I'm like that. It's like a more stoic position. I don't care. Okay, Robert Jenricks now part of reform. We're gonna deal with this. Yeah, I don't care. I don't believe you. You've lied before. You didn't do fuck all when you're in the Conservatives. What now? I trust you. Don't trust you. It's given enough people the courage to go. I don't care. I don't believe you. I don't trust you anymore. Because otherwise what will happen is it will be another election existential crisis if we do not vote for reform. This is the last. Have you heard this? This is the last chance the country's got. Yeah, it's the last chance the country's got. You got to vote for reform. And what's Zach Polancy saying?

[Connor]

It's the last chance.

[Peter McCormack]

You can't let these reform races in. I don't want to play your game anymore. I don't want to play your game.

[Connor]

But we'll see you next week for a political conversation sake.

[Peter McCormack]

Yeah, but like I always talk about Dave Smith. Sorry, Dave, I doubt you're listening, actually. But he just says it how it is. He just says it how it is. And he's like, this is all the bullshit that was said this week. By Ben Shapiro. This is bullshit. Said by Trump. This is all the bullshit. But I don't mind calling out the bullshit, I guess. Get a more honest nation. Just be transparent as honest. I don't know, man. Anyway, thank you all. If you've listened all the way through. Usually we have a set of notes and today we just came and we came and spoke.

[Connor]

It was good.

[Peter McCormack]

It was unplanned. Unscripted. Right? Have a lovely weekend. Love you all. Let me know what you think. Peace out.