Stepan Snigarev (5:28)

Yeah, sure. And you can ask me anything you want about quantum mechanics.

Peter McCormack (5:31)

Okay. I don't really know a lot, as I said to you. I read a lot of science magazines, so I read this one called Focus specifically, which is quite a light science magazine, but very interesting. But it's always talking about the weird quantum world or the world of quantum mechanics. So I want you to start telling me about this weird world of like. Because I hear about these things, like, you've got a particle here. If it turns another particle somewhere else turns, right?

Stepan Snigarev (5:55)

Yeah. So it sounds like magic, actually. And basically, even quantum physicists say that no one really understands quantum physics. So, I mean, it's completely different nature and it's very hard to digest. So what we have to do is to build some mathematical model and then to project it somehow to our everyday life to get some rough understanding. But it's pretty tricky. Yeah.

Peter McCormack (6:19)

Wasn't tide Einstein say something about quantum, like it's magic or Something.

Stepan Snigarev (6:23)

Yeah, he was saying a lot about quantum stuff. So he really didn't even like the theory that everything is a wave and a particle at the same time. And he was saying about something about spooky action at the distance. So he didn't like the fact that if you are changing something in one place, then something accidentally changes place. But he was like one of the founding fathers of quantum mechanics. And back then it was even more weird than now, because now we can already live with it for decades.

Peter McCormack (6:54)

Right. Okay, so I'm going to want to break it down to the absolute basics. But before that, can you tell me your personal journey to ending up being a quantum physicist?

Stepan Snigarev (7:04)

Yeah. I worked in experimental quantum physics until November last year. So basically my whole life. So first I went to the university, Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology, and there worked kind of starting from just physics in general, more to quantum physics, quantum optics, and then built a few labs, mostly working with quantum simulators and quantum computing. Now I moved to Bitcoin completely because fundamental physics is hard, especially if you want to see the results of your work. Because basically what I felt like, okay, you're building the level five years, then you're measuring a few things. You publish a paper that maybe someday someone will use to do something awesome, but who knows if you will be alive at that time. So I just was missing this instant application of my research to the real world.

Peter McCormack (7:59)

Right. Okay, so let's break it down. What is the history of quantum mechanics and quantum physics? Who first discovered it or made us the hypothesis that exists? Where did this all start?

Stepan Snigarev (8:11)

So it started in the beginning of the 20th century. So Einstein and a few other guys were thinking about how the atom works. Because then, according to classical mechanics, electrons shouldn't rotate around. Can they circulate around the nucleus all the time? So it should emit energy and it should eventually fall onto the atom and the atom will collapse. So there was a problem, and the classical physics didn't have an explanation. So they had to invent some basic things to postulate a few things that they don't understand that would explain this and then build the rest on top of that. So basically we have a few postulates. So like basic principles of quantum mechanics and everything else is built on top. For example, the one of them is that anything can be both a wave and a particle. And it depends mostly on the velocity, on the speed, or on the. What does it depend on actually on the mass as well. Yeah, on the energy. How far on this scale is the particle? Either it is More like a ball, a solid ball, or it is more like a wave. And the funny thing is that you can move them around on this axis. So basically, in some experiments, you can take electron and think that it is just a ball. And in another one, it will behave as a wave. Yeah.

Peter McCormack (9:37)

All right, let's break it down even deeper. Okay, let's start with an atom. What is an atom?

Stepan Snigarev (9:41)

Okay, an atom. Well, it's not like the simplest thing. People back then thought that there is nothing smaller than that.

Peter McCormack (9:49)

But they, like broke it open and all this shit came out. Right.

Stepan Snigarev (9:52)

Then. Then we have. So basically, what we have in the atom is just a bunch of nothing. And in the very center we have heavy particles like protons and neutrons, and around that we have electrons that are rotating around the nucleus. If you go even deeper, then you can break apart the proton and the neutron to quarks, and then maybe you can go even deeper. But it is already not about quantum physics. It is more like nuclear physics.

Peter McCormack (10:18)

Right. Okay, so what is a quark?

Stepan Snigarev (10:20)

Quark.

Peter McCormack (10:22)

Oh, we go really deep.

Stepan Snigarev (10:25)

Yeah, it is already really deep. So I normally didn't go that deep.

Peter McCormack (10:28)

All right, so we've got the atom and we've got it rotated. We've got electrons.

Stepan Snigarev (10:33)

Electrons rotating around it. Yeah.

Peter McCormack (10:35)

Okay. And like, in my mind, I've read magazines and I've seen the graphics. I'm like, okay, so there's a thing with these things rotating around around it, and there's like a gap between them.

Stepan Snigarev (10:45)

Yeah. A gap of nothing.

Peter McCormack (10:46)

A gap of nothing. But it still rotates.

Stepan Snigarev (10:48)

The electron is rotating around nucleus. Yeah. And the next thing, what quantum physics actually introduced is that, okay, there is a certain quantization, so the electron cannot rotate at arbitrary places. So it cannot rotate like a planet around the sun. It rotates according to certain rules on certain trajectories. And so when the electron wants to move from one trajectory to another, they do it, like, instantly in one hop, and they emit a photon or they absorb a photon. So basically, this means that everything is kind of discrete in there.

Peter McCormack (11:24)

Right. So do you ever go far back and study the birth of the universe, the explosions that made it happen, and why these atoms exist? Do you ever go that deep?

Stepan Snigarev (11:36)

No, not really.

Peter McCormack (11:37)

Because these are the basic rules of physics, right?

Stepan Snigarev (11:40)

Yeah. So what happened during the Big Bang? No one really knows, but it created.

Peter McCormack (11:44)

These basic rules of physics.

Stepan Snigarev (11:46)

I mean, our basic rules of physics should be able to explain the Big Bang. Yeah. So we can't explain everything. In particular, we can't explain why the Big Bang happened and why all this whole thing started because it's just too far in the past. And we have. Well, we don't have enough data to reconstruct what happened there.

Peter McCormack (12:07)

But at the start of the universe, we have the Big Bang. Everything that's created at that point. Are they all atoms?

Stepan Snigarev (12:13)

Yeah, everything was more or less. Not even atoms, more like plasma. So when we don't have just protons and neutrons and the electrons around it, but they are all messed up. So we have a bunch of these elementary particles flying around in a very hot plasma and starting expanding. And then they started shaping the atoms. Then we have reactions that created other elements of the Mendeleev table, the chemical table, and so on.

Peter McCormack (12:43)

So the atoms, are all the atoms different? Depending on which element it is, they.

Stepan Snigarev (12:47)

Are different in the number of protons, neutrons, and electrons. Yeah. So if you have the same number of protons, it is the same element, but different isotopes. So basically atoms with different mass but with the same, say, label. And if they have different number of electrons, then it's basically atoms or ions, depending on the total charge of this system.

Peter McCormack (13:09)

So say I had some helium, say I had some hydrogen. What is the difference between the atoms of the two?

Stepan Snigarev (13:14)

Hydrogen has just one proton. Helium has two protons. Number of neutrons can be different. In hydrogen, it's none really. In helium, there can be one or two. If you go above that, the whole atom becomes unstable and it can just to radioactively break down into hydrogen atoms or just particles.

Peter McCormack (13:36)

Right. Is this where we talk about the elements near the end of the periodic table having like a short half life?

Stepan Snigarev (13:41)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So as soon as you have more and more this elementary particles inside, it becomes more unstable. And in principle, if you plot them, they are more or less go on the line. So, like, you add a little bit more protons, you need to compensate this instability by adding more neutrons. And so it's on average, equal number of protons and neutrons.

Peter McCormack (14:02)

Okay, so can you build an atom based on what?

Stepan Snigarev (14:06)

Well, basically, the atoms that are at the end of the periodic table, they were built artificially. So many of them do not exist in nature. So what people did, they just took two atoms somewhere before that and just shooted them to each other with a huge energy.

Peter McCormack (14:26)

Right. Okay. So could you just artificially create gold?

Stepan Snigarev (14:29)

Well, it will be much more expensive than the gold itself.

Peter McCormack (14:32)

Right.

Stepan Snigarev (14:33)

But in principle, you can.

Peter McCormack (14:34)

You can. Okay, okay. Right. And am I right in thinking at the birth of the universe, it was really Just a bunch of helium and hydrogen and they came together to build like the first stars when the clouds migrated together.

Stepan Snigarev (14:47)

Yes. And then in the stars you have a certain pressure and conditions that kind of melted together hydrogen and helium atoms. And then we have lithium and all other elements in the periodic table. They were all born in the stars. So we are also all born in the stars.

Peter McCormack (15:04)

Yeah. So that's I'm going to come to. And then the star ends up dying. We have like a supernova and that's when a whole bunch of other crap is created. Right. Like all the other elements. Is that right or is everything already created in the star itself?

Stepan Snigarev (15:18)

Can't say for sure. I think that normally they created in the stars themselves. I am not. I don't really know what happens when the supernova and other explosions happens. Yeah, it would be interesting to find out.

Peter McCormack (15:32)

This is such an exciting interview for me because I read so much of this stuff. I watch everything I can watch on the documentary channels when I'm at home. And I also listen to a podcast called Ask a Space Man. Do you know Ask a Space Man? Paul Sutter. So he talks about all this stuff.

Stepan Snigarev (15:47)

So you can actually tell me more.

Peter McCormack (15:49)

I can tell you more. So I can teach a, a quantum physicist a little bit about how the universe works.

Stepan Snigarev (15:54)

Yeah, yeah. Like astrophysics. So it's a different field. You know, just, just like in bitcoin we have people that are specified on more like lightning and networking stock stack and more like on the cryptography in physics it is even worse. I mean that if you work in quantum physics with particular applications then you probably know much less about even also quantum physics but superconducting circuits and these kind of things.

Peter McCormack (16:21)

Well, all I know is, you know, somebody said to me before like you said, we're all made of stars, right? And I was like what? And then I read about it that basically when there's a supernova, the death of a star, such the explosion creates a whole bunch of new elements like that didn't exist and blossom across the universe. And you know, that's essentially what we are. We are made up of all the elements that come from ah, then, then.

Stepan Snigarev (16:43)

Probably this dust from the supernova from bunch of elements form the planets and then we start having a life in there and bitcoin as well.

Peter McCormack (16:53)

So do you think the universe is going to come to some like to a contraction or do you think we're going to have this big expanded cold dead space once all the stars have burnt out?

Stepan Snigarev (17:05)

I doubt that we will see It, I mean, we, we will be probably dead by that time. But I would say that it keeps expanding with the speed of light. Maybe. I don't know. I think that there were some studies that it kind of slows down because, well, it makes sense. We still have forces that are kind of trying to slow down the expansion. I would say that, yeah, there will be a bunch of empty space and probably our sky will be a little bit more empty. So we will not be able to see the stars because they will be too far away. That's, I think, how it will happen, but I can't say for sure.

Peter McCormack (17:41)

You know, one of the weird things I think about, because I think about a lot of weird things with this, but I think about like we have our universe here that's created in this random nowhere space. Just we have this universe. I wonder if other universes have just exploded into existence in other. Just dimensions or weird spaces that we just don't know about.

Stepan Snigarev (17:57)

And then when our universe will expand enough such that it collides with another one that is out there, maybe something interesting will happen.

Peter McCormack (18:06)

Yeah, or they just, you know, this universe was created in somewhere like it exists, but not in a pinpointed place. And this is where I start. My head starts to get all fucked up because I'm like, what's going on?

Stepan Snigarev (18:18)

Trying to think. I would say if it happened once, in case of our universe, it can possibly happen another time somewhere else.

Peter McCormack (18:26)

Yeah.

Stepan Snigarev (18:26)

Do you believe in aliens if it happened once?

Peter McCormack (18:30)

Yeah, I thought you'd say that. All right, so let's talk about quantum mechanics and quantum physics again. Let's go to the start. Can you break down exactly what the theory is?

Stepan Snigarev (18:41)

Okay, so maybe.

Peter McCormack (18:47)

Tough question, right?

Stepan Snigarev (18:49)

Yeah, I'm just thinking how to explain it in a pretty easy and understandable way. Okay, so the main building block is basically an energy and the energy potential. Such a thing that. Well, basically how the energy changes in space or changing other parameters. And the fundament thing is that everything can be pretty much. Well, we have quants as well. So we, we have certain. Damn it. I didn't talk about quantum physics for quite some time and now I'm losing my vocabulary.

Peter McCormack (19:28)

You can go back to the universe if you want.

Stepan Snigarev (19:30)

No, no, no, no. I want to go to the quantum physics. It's much more interesting. So basically what we have, we have a certain, certain rules like uncertainty. Uncertainty principle that defines quantum mechanics in general. For example, one is that if we have two things that are somehow connected, for example, the position and the momentum of a particle so then there is certain uncertainty how we can measure one thing and how we will influence another one. So basically this means that we cannot know for sure your position and your speed. So if you know that you are completely at rest, your speed is zero, then probably your position is undefined within a certain range. And the same happens other way around. So if I know that you are exactly here, then I probably don't really know what is your velocity, what is your speed. And yeah, there is one of the fundamental principles and it is pretty easy to understand because how do I know that you are at a certain point, I need to measure that somehow. And to measure that I need to influence you. And when I influence you, I probably change your momentum as well. So basically, if I just take the ruler and hit you with a ruler, so I probably will provide a certain force that will change your momentum. So there is a way to somehow correlate this basic fundamental quantum principles to real worlds. But it's not very strict. I would say then another thing is about these energy levels in the atom, that it is another fundamental principle that basically if we describe everything in the crazy mathematical equations form, then there are certain boundaries and limitations for the whole thing. And what we will find out from that is that electron in the atom can be only on certain levels, only on certain kind of places. And it comes from math. But then you look at it in reality and you see exactly the same. So you start thinking that, okay, probably our theory is more or less correct, because, yeah, we have an experiment that confirms it and all the basic principles of quantum mechanics are built like this. So we first invent some convenient mathematical model and then we verify it. So there is no kind of complete truth. So I am expecting that maybe in 200 years there will be another theory that will say that all the quantum mechanics is crap. And actually there is much. Well, we need to develop much deeper and much more complicated mathematical apparatus. But up to now it works.

Peter McCormack (22:10)

So quantum mechanics is just a mathematical theory?

Stepan Snigarev (22:13)

Basically, yes. And we have also a bunch of experiments that confirmed it and a few that don't.

Peter McCormack (22:18)

But when they talk about having a particle here, which is a pair, because particles have a pair, Right.

Stepan Snigarev (22:24)

Why?

Peter McCormack (22:25)

So when I read about, you have a particle here and you can turn it and another random particle somewhere else will turn.

Stepan Snigarev (22:31)

Okay, that is already a little bit different. It is about. Yeah. So let me tell you about the qubits. Yes. So comparing to normal bits that can be either 0 or 1, we can have a quantum bits like bits on steroids, that can be anything from 0 to 1. And the thing is that if they're somewhere there between 0 to 1, when you measure it, it still be either 0 or 1. But when you're measuring it every time when you are measuring it, it will be slightly different. So there is a probability. And what you can do with two qubits, you can entangle them. So you can make them in such a quantum state that they kind of feel each other. So basically, when one is zero, the other one will always go to one. So this means that even if two qubits are somewhere between zero and one, and you are measuring the same qubit over and over, and you get randomly 0, 1, 0, 0, 1, and so on, when you look at the second one, it will always collapse to another one. So this is the quantum entanglement. It is a pretty hard to digest thing.

Peter McCormack (23:38)

Yeah, I'm struggling right now, so I've always gone via what I've read is that. And the way people explain in the simple science magazines is there's a particle here and there can be another particle at the other end of the universe, and they're entangled. Yeah, but that is true. They can be.

Stepan Snigarev (23:52)

It can be. Yeah. And in total, I would say that our whole universe, it is based on quantum mechanics, and we have a bunch of quantum superpositions everywhere. So basically everything is entangled. So maybe we are living in just one probability of all possible universes. So maybe our universe is in this weird entangled state and we just.

Peter McCormack (24:14)

The multiverse.

Stepan Snigarev (24:15)

Multiverse.

Peter McCormack (24:16)

Yeah, I've read about the multiverse.

Stepan Snigarev (24:17)

And so it doesn't mean that there is no other alternative universe where we are not talking.

Peter McCormack (24:25)

Yeah. And there's another one where I'm the quantum physicist and you're the podcaster and you're talking to me, right?

Stepan Snigarev (24:31)

Yes. The problem with that is that all this quantum mechanics stuff is really working only on the tiny scales.

Peter McCormack (24:37)

Right.

Stepan Snigarev (24:38)

So as soon as you have all this entropy, well, you can either think that, okay, if you're breaking this entanglement and measuring the probability and you get 0 and 1, you actually collapse it, or you can think that at this moment of the measurement, your universe splits. And in one of these universes, you measured one, and another one you measured zero.

Peter McCormack (25:03)

But what connects them?

Stepan Snigarev (25:06)

Nothing.

Peter McCormack (25:07)

Magic.

Stepan Snigarev (25:08)

Well, nothing. It just splits. So it's already the question of kind of how do you identify yourself in this whole thing? I mean, it's really philosophical questions.

Peter McCormack (25:24)

Yeah. And you can end up just like wrapping your head into a kind of big, confused state and getting totally lost in it all. I love it though. Next up, I talked to Stepan more about the quantum threat to bitcoin. But before that I've got a message from my show sponsors. So my new sponsor Acquainting, they've been on the show a couple of weeks now. Have you checked them out? Are you taking your tax seriously with your crypto holdings? If you are or if you're not, you definitely need to check them out as they are not only a crypto tax tool, they've got one of the best portfolio management solutions available. Also, it is the best priced crypto tax tool available and you only pay when you want to get your tax report. So definitely go and check it out. I've been playing with the tool and I have to commend them. They have taken something very complicated and made it super easy. Taken out all the complexities of tax reporting from the user. You will see this when you go and play with the tool. I highly recommend you check it out for yourself as you do not want to get yourself in a tax pickle. And it doesn't just calculate your tax, it optimizes your trading decisions to ensure that you trade the right coins to reduce your tax burden. You can also import your data from all major exchanges and wallet providers. It is really comprehensive, so a total no brainer. Go and check it out at acointing.com which is acc oiting.com that is acointing.com which is ACC oint ing.com and last but definitely no means least this week is Drop Bet, the best Bitcoin wallet I've used. They sponsored my event at Consensus and they are sponsoring another event for me at Bitcoin 2019 in San Francisco. So really looking forward to that. But have you downloaded it yet? Have you checked it out? As I said, since I've been using it, it's changed how I use Bitcoin. I didn't really used to use a mobile wallet. I used to do everything from my hardware wallet. But now when I travel I load up a few sats on my drop bit Bitcoin wallet and I use that when I'm away. I use that after I have to give people Bitcoin or if I have to receive Bitcoin. It is the simplest mobile wallet available and it really acts. It's just like a Venmo for bitcoin which is not something we have here but out in the States I've seen my friends using Venmo. Just a very easy way to send Bitcoin Back and forth. You can even text it to your friends. Yes, you can put in their phone number and actually text them bitcoin. So come on, go and check it out. It's the best UX bitcoin wallet available. It's available for iPhone and Android. Just head over to drop bit app, which is D R o p B I T app. That is drop bit app, which is D R o p B I T app. So how does it apply to computing? When people talk about quantum computers?

Stepan Snigarev (28:12)

Oh, that's actually really awesome. So imagine you have a certain problem. Let's say you have a bunch of, I don't know, balls, and you need to find the one that is the largest one or, I don't know, squares or whatever. So how the. Let's say how the classical computer does it. So he just measures each of them, compares the numbers, and then gives you the largest one. This means that during this procedure, it basically did a lot of useless computations by measuring each of them. I don't care about which of them, what size is each of the squares. I only need the largest one. So what quantum computer does, basically it can just skip all these preparation steps and just by applying a few gates into all of them, get the answer right away. So it's mostly because of this entanglement thing. So basically, if you can encode your question in the qubits and then slightly change the probabilities of these qubits, what you can end up with that you apply the separations and at the very end, you measure and you get the answer. And this in principle gives you very good improvements in the algorithms.

Peter McCormack (29:30)

Right, okay, so that sounds doable, Sounds perfectly feasible. How come it's taken so long for a quantum computer to be built and we're still not there? Right?

Stepan Snigarev (29:42)

Yeah, we are not there yet. I mean, right now, all the quantum computers that we have, they can be easily simulated on a normal computer. So we are just crossing the boundary when we will have the system that cannot be simulated by normal computers. The problem is that all this entanglement thing is very fragile. So as soon as you accidentally hit a photon in this system or make some other annoying measurement failure, you ruin the whole thing. And keeping like you need to first have multiple qubits and each of them is very fragile, and then you need to entangle them, and this process is very fragile. And then you need to apply gates to them. That is also very fragile. Plus you need error correction codes, because sometimes they just fall apart. And this means that for some reasonable computing, you need huge amount of qubits and tremendous amount of gates of these operations to perform normally. So the current state, I can tell you the current state of quantum computers, you know, that's what what people scared about is like factorization of the product of two prime numbers, right? So this is basically what RSA is built on top built on that. If I give you a product of two large prime numbers, there is no way for you to brute force what other prime numbers really are. And there is an efficient quantum algorithm that can do it. So what quantum computers can do now, they can factorize let's say number 15 into 5 and 3 this level. So maybe you can go a little bit more and have like maybe 7, 8, 9, 10 bit numbers, but not like 2048 numbers that we use in RSA right now. And as soon as you want to scale it more and more, it becomes more and more complicated. So we have like maybe hundreds of qubits, thousands of gates and we need orders of magnitude more.

Peter McCormack (31:46)

Okay, don't Google have a quantum computer that they are talking about that they're making good progress with?

Stepan Snigarev (31:53)

So there are a few things. So the first one is what they had before they were partnering with the G Wave company. They built what they claimed to be a quantum computer. There are still questions if it really uses any quantumness in their algorithms, but they are very specifically targeted to certain task in particular for Google. What is interesting is training neural networks. And training neural networks is basically solving the linear, huge number of linear equations. These quantum annealers are not like general purpose quantum computers where you can implement anything. But it's more like Asics. Right? So Asics can do hashing, Google's quantum computer can do annealing. But you can't ask ASIC to calculate arbitrary, well to run some arbitrary program there. So it's just not exactly the quantum computer. It's quantum, it's computing something, but it's not the dream. We call it more like a quantum simulator, let's say, or very application specific quantum computers.

Peter McCormack (33:03)

So I've heard various estimates. Some people say we may be a decade away from a stable quantum computer. I've heard somebody say we may be 30 years away. And I've also had somebody say it probably never be achieved. Where do you fit in this kind of world?

Stepan Snigarev (33:16)

We see breakthroughs in the field every, let's say five, 10 years. And this is basically the time that you need to build a web. So when you have a nice idea, you just build it and then if you're lucky it works. So right now, everyone in quantum field is worried about scaling. Well, scaling quantum computers.

Peter McCormack (33:38)

That's what we've got in Bitcoin.

Stepan Snigarev (33:39)

Yeah. And there are right now several different implementations that are successful in one of the directions. But I don't see good ideas that would put all of that together. Imagine if there will be a way to build a quantum computer. So there will be a roadmap. Let's say it will appear like the ideas will appear in 10 years, then you still need another five years to build a prototype. Then you need a lot, you need to work much more on making it more or less robust. And then let's say in 20 years we have a quantum computer that can do something useful. But then you need another decade to scale it such that it overperforms classical computers and starts breaking classical cryptography.

Peter McCormack (34:30)

So decades away is a realistic decades away.

Stepan Snigarev (34:34)

Yeah, I would say two, at least. More like three, four or something like that.

Peter McCormack (34:38)

And that would probably be the classical supercomputer type quantum computer that sits in IBM or in Google. It's not going to be the computer you or I have.

Stepan Snigarev (34:49)

Yeah, it will be a lab. So it will be. No, it will be a laboratory lab. Yeah. So basically I can tell you what our kind of setup looks like. So it's two rooms with three optical tables. One is full of optical components, another one is full of vacuum system. We have like five students constantly running and keeping it running and somehow doing something. And yeah, in total, it takes a lot of money, it takes a lot of space, resources, and qualified people to build these things.

Peter McCormack (35:21)

How much of this is engineering and.

Stepan Snigarev (35:22)

How much is math in experimental physics? Like 90% is engineering. So while I was working there, I mean, I had some theoretical challenges from time to time, but mostly it was just programming, developing different devices, writing software, mechanical engineering, all this kind of stuff. In principle, if someone like Google or some national government agency will really put some funds in that, it can be parallelized, it can be made much faster. So I know that there is one web that is working with Google on ion quantum computer. So they're doing pretty well, pretty good progress, but still in the kind of early stages.

Peter McCormack (36:08)

Okay, so there are different kind of views on what would happen when we have a stable quantum computer. There will be obviously benefits, but there will obviously be kind of some quite scary negatives. So how do you look at the pros and cons of quantum computing?

Stepan Snigarev (36:26)

So just the threat of quantum computers allows us to develop new crypto. And this is awesome. I mean that basically we need to, invent more robust and secure cryptography. It is awesome. But we shouldn't rush there because right now what all the challenges showed that if there is a new quantum secure scheme, there probably something wrong with the implementation and it can be broken by the classical computers. And this is terrible. So I think that just the threat of quantum computers is pushing the field forward and hopefully we will get quantum secure crypto and then I think that there will be only benefits. And from the bitcoin perspective, well, we just need to do hopefully soft fork and the worst case hard fork and then we are good.

Peter McCormack (37:17)

Okay, so the only danger, and I'm thinking broad here just to society and the world in general, the only danger from quantum computing is the ability to crack cryptography in any field, not just bitcoin.

Stepan Snigarev (37:30)

Yeah. So quantum computing can crack modern cryptography. So we just need to develop a new one. And I mean, if you look into the past, I don't know, 20 years ago no one was using SSL, no one was using HTTPs. Right. And everyone was kind of okay with sending plain text over the Internet. So now we are a little bit better in that. So I think that at the moment when the quantum computers will come, we already migrate to the next generation of crypto.

Peter McCormack (38:00)

Can quantum computing drive forward AI?

Stepan Snigarev (38:03)

Yes, it can. Yes. So that is why Google is working on that. Because the hardest part in neural networks is how to train them. And this training and finding the minimum in this thing is really a pain. So it can take a lot of time. And if you can parallelize it and if you can use quantum computer for that, that would be really a boost of artificial intelligence.

Peter McCormack (38:27)

What's the Google? Is it DeepMind?

Stepan Snigarev (38:29)

No, DeepMind is working just on architecture of neural networks. I don't know exactly what is. So I just know the web that is working with Google's support, but I don't know if they have like a website or anything.

Peter McCormack (38:45)

So they're essentially creating synthetic neural networks.

Stepan Snigarev (38:48)

No, no, no, no. So the, the neural network still works on the classical computer. Yeah. The only thing that quantum computers help with is how to train them.

Peter McCormack (38:57)

How to train them.

Stepan Snigarev (38:58)

Yeah. So just the training happens with the quantum computer and then as soon as the neural network is deployed, it can perfectly analyze the images and distinguish cats and do so.

Peter McCormack (39:11)

Okay, so quantum computing, the benefit is much higher computation. I guess there'll be many fields it can be applicable to. So I guess maybe healthcare, like analyzing healthcare, energy industry.

Stepan Snigarev (39:24)

So for example, one of the applications of quantum simulators and computers is we need to invent the High temperature superconductor. And right now it is really a problem because you just need to make another alloy and test it. And with quantum systems you can actually simulate it and you can see what exactly you need to do to make a high temperature superconductor. And then what will mean all the wires everywhere will be with zero resistance. And this means that no energy losses and we have cheap energy for mining maybe.

Peter McCormack (39:59)

So what was your interest in bitcoin then? What brought you into bitcoin?

Stepan Snigarev (40:03)

I like math in principle. I like cryptography. And also bitcoin saved my life savings when Russian rubble crashed by a factor of two.

Peter McCormack (40:13)

Really? So that's cool.

Stepan Snigarev (40:14)

Yeah, great story. I just kind of was looking into bitcoin. I liked the technology. I thought that it is very promising. I bought basically bitcoins for all the money that I had. I was a poor scientist, so not much, but. And then after, in a few months, Russian ruble just crashed by a factor of two and everyone lost their money and I was fine.

Peter McCormack (40:38)

So what's the position on bitcoin in Russia? Is it legal, is it illegal? Because it seems like it's still unsure.

Stepan Snigarev (40:45)

It is in the gray area. So officially it is legal. But if you are trying to run a business somehow related to bitcoin, there is a chance that people will come and make your life harder. Normally people try to avoid crypto and this is basically the position of the government as well.

Peter McCormack (41:08)

Wasn't the government at one point talking about creating their own crypto?

Stepan Snigarev (41:12)

It was not exactly the government, it was the central bank. And it is slightly different than the guy who was trying to do it. He got fired.

Peter McCormack (41:22)

All right, so with Bitcoin, obviously we have cryptography, the current cryptography, SHA256.

Stepan Snigarev (41:31)

So this is the Hessian algorithm, SHA2256.

Peter McCormack (41:34)

So the fear is that quantum computing would be able to crack that quite simply. And if somebody secretly.

Stepan Snigarev (41:41)

So the thing is that there are two different security assumptions in bitcoin. The first one we are relying on the hash function, this SHA256. And the second one is our elliptic curve signing algorithm that relies on the discrete log problem. So there are two different quantum algorithms that helps there. So the one that kind of breaks sha256 is not very efficient. So if you think about the complexity, to brute force the correct hash, you need to try 2 to the N numbers. Right? So you just brute force them. Maybe a little bit more efficient, but roughly that.

Peter McCormack (42:22)

How big a number is that?

Stepan Snigarev (42:23)

What are we talking about here? Numbers 256 bits. So basically it's like huge numbers. That is how mining works. Right? You know, so we with mining, with all the power in the mining, we can only have a few leading zeros in the box and quantum computer will do it a little bit faster. So it will be not 2 to the power of 256, but 2 to the power of square root of 256.

Peter McCormack (42:48)

So what could a miner point all their A6 at? Trying to hack a specific wallet.

Stepan Snigarev (42:55)

It's just extremely hard. I mean that what exactly to hack. I mean so for signing we are using a different scheme, the LFG curves. Right. And the only thing that you could possibly do with SHA256 is just to try to find the data that hashes to exactly certain number. But it is much more profitable to mine new blocks and stuff. And I think that as soon as we get quantum computers, the first thing that they will be applied to is to mine new blocks. A bit faster than asics.

Peter McCormack (43:28)

Right? Okay, so you believe quantum computing will be used for mining before it be used for hacking?

Stepan Snigarev (43:32)

Yes.

Peter McCormack (43:32)

Okay, interesting.

Stepan Snigarev (43:34)

Because there you can help yourself a little bit. And in principle the algorithm is a bit easier and for hacking the public private key it is much faster. But also I don't think that at that moment we will still use our elliptic curve signing algorithm. So we will move to something else that is quantum secure. And Hessian can stay. So Hessian can stay.

Peter McCormack (44:03)

Has any work been done into what could come after elliptic curve which would be quantum resistant?

Stepan Snigarev (44:09)

So there are a few directions in the field. I'm not very familiar with that. I've heard of something like lattice based cryptography, some other stuff. So I should probably look into that. And right now I feel that it is still like at the early stages. So yeah, as I said, there were competitions where quantum secure algorithms were submitted and then they all got hacked. But there are directions. So I think another problem is that you can't prove that the certain algorithm is quantum resistant. So you can guess, you can say that, okay, it is resistant to existing quantum algorithms, but there are also smart people developing new quantum algorithms. And who knows, maybe they will find out something that breaks Also kind of quantum resistant cryptography. So it will be more like a cat and mouse play. I think that it will be just a constant race, but it's good to have some kind of competition and it just pushes the technology forward.

Peter McCormack (45:10)

So what kind of work are you doing yourself in Bitcoin?

Stepan Snigarev (45:13)

Right now we are building hardware platform. So basically Something like a hardware wallet, but also developer friendly and basically a platform so that you can take it, you can develop something on top of that, you can extend it and make a hardware wallet of your choice. So if you are not happy with the security assumptions that we did, you can introduce your own authentication mechanism or something. So it is both the hardware wallet and developer boards as well.

Peter McCormack (45:47)

When you say we, is it a team, a company?

Stepan Snigarev (45:49)

So we have a company, a startup. So there are three co founders and we have a few engineers and also we have access to a pretty nice security company in Germany and the hardware company that has access to the factory. So basically we have. Right. Partners and three guys that are on top of that. And yeah, we are currently raising funds.

Peter McCormack (46:14)

You're currently raising? How much? Do you know how much you're raising?

Stepan Snigarev (46:16)

Can you say? So to get the wallet quickly on the market, we need to raise something like 5 million.

Peter McCormack (46:23)

Okay.

Stepan Snigarev (46:23)

So talking to VCs right now may take some time.

Peter McCormack (46:28)

So you'll just be a competitor to Ledger and Trezor.

Stepan Snigarev (46:31)

So our hope is not to be directly a competitor, to do something slightly different and ideally to still be friends. At least with Trezor.

Peter McCormack (46:44)

At least with Trezor.

Stepan Snigarev (46:45)

At least with Trezor. And I think that we are on the right track there. We are working together with them on cointo and stuff.

Peter McCormack (46:50)

Oh okay. So you can partner with them.

Stepan Snigarev (46:52)

So on the protocol development, we want to partner with Trezor. Yes, we want to make a different hardware. So Trezor guys are fully open source and that is why they use an application microcontroller. We want to take a secure element into the thing, but we still open source everything that we develop. And later, maybe at later stages when we start developing our own secure elements that will be open source and maybe Trezor will be able to help us with that.

Peter McCormack (47:21)

Is your product going to be more for experienced kind of expert Bitcoiners or will it be for someone like I would use?

Stepan Snigarev (47:29)

So I would say that it will focus more on modern bitcoin developments, but still it will be user friendly. So our main goal is, is screw all the altcoins and instead focus on what is happening in Bitcoin in particular Lightning integration, Coin Join integration, hopefully sidechains and Schnorr signatures as soon as we get them really to provide the tool to store your keys or whatever application you are trying to use.

Peter McCormack (47:59)

So this is going to be the hardware wallet for the Maximus. No shitcoins at all.

Stepan Snigarev (48:04)

I mean as we are open source and we Also give certain access to the developers, to the microcontroller. The altcoiners can build the application or the module for their stuff, but we just don't want to allocate resources to that. Yeah, that's fair enough because there are too many things happening in Bitcoin so we don't have time to focus on other stuff.

Peter McCormack (48:28)

Right. So when do you hoping to have a product in market?

Stepan Snigarev (48:31)

Hopefully in one year, after we are done with fundraising. So it just takes around six months to develop a secure chip. We are using the custom one and also all the testing stuff takes a while. We want to test it with hopefully wallet fail guys and other hackers and. Yeah, a year, unfortunately. But we are planning to release the developer developer tools earlier. So as soon as we. We are ready for that. So hopefully in autumn. So the developer board and the secure element that has a Bitcoin functionality in it.

Peter McCormack (49:05)

Right. So if someone's listening to this and they want to find out more or even invest, where should they go to?

Stepan Snigarev (49:11)

They should probably contact me or my other partners. So I think that. Can we put my Twitter handle somewhere?

Peter McCormack (49:19)

Yeah, I mean, you can say it now so people hear it and I'll put it out as well.

Stepan Snigarev (49:22)

Yeah, it's pretty easy. Stepan Snigirov. First name, last name.

Peter McCormack (49:26)

Yeah, don't need to spell that out.

Stepan Snigarev (49:28)

I mean also, have you got a.

Peter McCormack (49:31)

Name for the product?

Stepan Snigarev (49:32)

That's a tricky part. We kind of think about something like Volto, like vaults with, you know, this Hodl and Beetle stuff, like podl. Yeah. But I'm not sure yet. So right now I'm focused to make the prototypes work.

Peter McCormack (49:53)

Right. Okay. So I obviously, I don't think people will get your Twitter from what you just said because it's a complicated Russian name. So I will share in the show notes and put it out there, make sure they hear about that. Anything else you want to tell anyone about before we finish up?

Stepan Snigarev (50:06)

Well, about the quantum stuff. I think that there is nothing to be scared about right now at the moment at least. So maybe in 10 years. I mean, come on, Bitcoin is just 10 years old, right? Yeah. So in another 10 years old. 10 years, who knows how. How we will develop all the crypto and stuff.

Peter McCormack (50:26)

Yeah, but what if it was like some secret Chinese laboratory and they're like years ahead and they figured out and they think, right, we're going to fuck with Bitcoin, we're just going to go and absolutely smash all the private keys open, we're going to go steal everyone's bitcoin.

Stepan Snigarev (50:41)

I'm a little bit skeptical about that because, you know, the research and fundamental science is also open, like bitcoin. So what if I would tell you that, okay, there is a certain Chinese bitcoin that is ways ahead of our bitcoin that we don't know about and they are using all that fancy crypto in there. Do you think it is?

Peter McCormack (51:04)

Well, it isn't bitcoin.

Stepan Snigarev (51:05)

It isn't bitcoin. Yeah. But I mean that in the fundamental physics field also, there are plenty of conferences and sharing the knowledge and so on. And I think that the community driven the way is the fastest way to get to the final point. So if there is some secret web somewhere, they don't share their thoughts, they don't have any feedback, and they will be stuck at certain points. So I don't think that there will be any lab that is more than, let's say, a couple years ahead of the community in general.

Peter McCormack (51:41)

And as you said, there's enough paranoia in the bitcoin community that. That people are already considering this. Right. So almost certainly we will see changes before a quantum computer becomes available.

Stepan Snigarev (51:52)

Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure that it will happen before quantum computer will be available because it's much easier to deal with math than with all this experimental quantum unstable stuff.

Peter McCormack (52:06)

Yeah.

Stepan Snigarev (52:08)

Like, between the protocol and the implementation, there is a huge.

Peter McCormack (52:11)

All right, man. Well, Stefan, this was fascinating. Loved finding out about it. Definitely interesting. I think people really enjoyed hearing about this. So I really appreciate you coming on at an hour's notice and yeah, thank.

Stepan Snigarev (52:25)

You for inviting me. I would. I was very glad to talk about quantum stuff.

Peter McCormack (52:36)

Okay, so what did you think of that? I've got to say that was one of my favorites I've recorded. I think Stepan is great. And although we veered off from quantum physics and touched on astrophysics, it was great to have him on. But what do you think? Are your keys safe from quantum computing labs around the world? I think for now. It appears that there is kind of little threat now. But it is something that I'm glad some smart people are considering and preparing for. And it's kind of interesting to think about this quantum stuff. Right. I mean, it's funny to think that in a alternate reality, in an alternate universe, that bitcoin is back over 20k. But also there might be an alternate universe where bitcoin has never existed. So I think that's kind of interesting, kind of weird. Totally boggles my mind. But if you enjoyed the show and you've got any feedback, feel free to reach out to me. My email address is hellohatbitcoindid.com and if you want to support the show, there's always a bunch of things you can do. Firstly, just listen to the ads. I know some people find the ads annoying. I've seen people complaining if you don't listen to them, just skip them. It takes you like 10 seconds to do it. But it's the sponsors that pay for me to do this. So if you want to support the show, please do check them out. If you don't want the ads, you can subscribe to an ad free version. Just head over to patreon.com whatbitcoindid for $5 a month you can get the show without ads and if you don't want to use Patreon, you can subscribe by crypto. Just drop me an email on hellohatbitcoindid.com I'll give you a deposit address and then I'll add you to the distribution list. I'm also accepting lightning payments. Give me a shout if you want to use that. You can become a show sponsor. I'll be honest, pretty much all my ads are sold out for the year. But I've got my new show coming. So if you're interested in sponsoring that, feel free to reach out to me. You can leave me a review on itunes or you can click on the subscribe button and you can follow me on social media. You can check out my website, whatbitcoindid.com and you can share this show out with your friends and family. Anyway, many, many more interviews in the bag and tomorrow I'm going to be meeting up with Jeremy Welch from casa. We're going to be discussing the threat to the active world of bitcoin and privacy. Be something that I've written about and something I find super interesting. I'm going to try and rush that one out on Friday because I think it's going to be a great show. And remember, if you want to reach out to me, my email address is hello at what bitcoindid.com.