Monument Valley

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Plot Thickens – Episode: Monument Valley

Introduction

In the "Monument Valley" episode of The Plot Thickens, hosted by Ben Mankiewicz, listeners are taken on an in-depth exploration of John Ford's profound connection to Monument Valley and its pivotal role in shaping both his legacy and the American Western genre. This episode delves into the complexities of Ford's directorial genius, his tumultuous relationships on set, and the enduring impact of his work on cinema.

John Ford’s Sanctuary: Monument Valley

Ben Mankiewicz opens the episode by setting the stage for John Ford's retreat to Monument Valley, a landscape that would become synonymous with his vision of the American West. Ford first visited Monument Valley before World War II, influenced by local rancher Harry Goulding, who sought to bring Hollywood productions to the area to boost local economy and provide jobs for the Navajo population.

Scott Iman, a Ford biographer, recounts Ford’s initial impressions: “[00:06]… it was immediately clear this valley held something Ford loved most. Epic, beautiful scenery.” This profound appreciation for the landscape led Ford to return multiple times, ultimately filming six of his films there between 1946 and 1964, including classics like My Darling Clementine, Fort Apache, and Cheyenne Autumn.

Building the John Ford Stock Company

Ford’s commitment to Monument Valley was not just about the location; it was about the community he built there. Each trip to the valley was akin to running a summer camp, where Ford assembled a recurring ensemble of actors and crew members, known collectively as the "John Ford Stock Company." This group included legendary figures like John Wayne, Henry Fonda, Maureen O'Hara, and character actors such as Ward Bond and Victor McLaughlin.

Anna Lee, an English actress who frequently collaborated with Ford, highlights the allure of being part of this exclusive group: “[11:59]… actors wanted in even if they didn't always know what they were signing up for. But you could never say no to him. He wanted you in the picture and that was it.”

Ford’s Directing Style: A Dichotomy of Camp Counselor and Benevolent Dictator

On set, Ford fostered a sense of camaraderie through daily rituals such as afternoon tea and communal dining, creating a tightly-knit community amidst the harsh desert environment. However, beneath this veneer of unity lay a more volatile and demanding side. Ford's directorial approach was often described as authoritarian, with strict rules against drinking and a penchant for psychological manipulation to elicit authentic performances.

Iman describes Ford as both a “camp director” and a “benevolent dictator” ([18:30]), illustrating the duality of his leadership style. While Ford organized social gatherings and maintained a disciplined environment, he simultaneously employed tactics that could be harsh and provocative, targeting actors' vulnerabilities to deepen their performances.

The Challenge of Woody Strode: A Study in Contradictions

One of the most compelling narratives in this episode revolves around Woody Strode, a pioneering African American actor who worked with Ford on Sergeant Rutledge. Initially seen as a malleable newcomer, Strode's experience under Ford's direction was both transformative and tumultuous.

In Sergeant Rutledge, Ford cast Strode as a black army sergeant falsely accused of a heinous crime. Despite the film's progressive stance on race relations, the reality on set was rife with tension. Ford's methods included physical hazing and verbal abuse, particularly targeting Strode's vulnerability as a black actor in a segregated Hollywood.

Mia Mask, a film professor, elaborates on the significance of Strode’s role: “[30:24]… Sergeant Rutledge was a watershed moment, one of the first big Hollywood movies to look at racism straight on.”

During the filming, Ford would often test Strode's resilience, as recounted by Iman: “[36:17]… before shooting a pivotal monologue, Ford handed Strode a large mug of whiskey, leading to a confrontation that would precede one of Strode’s most memorable performances.”

Strode's portrayal showcased his growth as an actor but also highlighted the emotional toll of Ford's demanding and often antagonistic directing style. Despite the challenges, Strode acknowledged the invaluable experience gained under Ford’s tutelage, albeit marred by personal and racial tensions.

Toxic Masculinity and Ford’s Lasting Influence

The episode critically examines Ford's embodiment of toxic masculinity both on and off set. His abrasive behavior, coupled with moments of unexpected tenderness, painted a complex picture of a man who was deeply sensitive yet masked his vulnerabilities with a tough exterior.

Scott Iman reflects on Ford's personal struggles: “[48:18]… ‘Life for you, in actuality, had been an extremely tough experience because you were sensitive to great many things…’” This internal conflict is mirrored in Ford’s films, where his portrayal of rugged, stoic men became archetypal representations of American masculinity.

Legacy and Final Reflections

The episode concludes by addressing the paradox of Ford’s legacy. While his films have left an indelible mark on cinema and shaped the public’s perception of the American West, his methods and personal demeanor have sparked enduring debate. The narrator emphasizes the importance of acknowledging both the artistic brilliance and the problematic aspects of Ford’s character: “[49:12]… 'Who knows what John Ford was up to, or if it always was motivated from a place of artistic expression. He was also just kind of a mean guy…'”

Ben Mankiewicz invites listeners to reflect on how Ford’s complex personality influenced his work and, by extension, broader cultural narratives around masculinity and heroism.

Conclusion

The "Monument Valley" episode of The Plot Thickens offers a nuanced portrait of John Ford, celebrating his contributions to filmmaking while critically examining the interpersonal dynamics and ethical dilemmas that accompanied his success. Through engaging storytelling and insightful analysis, Ben Mankiewicz provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of Ford’s enduring impact on both cinema and cultural mythology.

Notable Quotes

• Scott Iman [00:06]: “…it was immediately clear this valley held something Ford loved most. Epic, beautiful scenery.”
• Scott Iman [11:59]: “…actors wanted in even if they didn't always know what they were signing up for. But you could never say no to him. He wanted you in the picture and that was it.”
• Scott Iman [18:30]: “I don't know how he had people to idolize him as much as they did when he was so damned obnoxious. He could be absolutely hideous to people.”
• Ben Mankiewicz [36:17]: “…it was a hell of a performance, truly memorable.”
• Scott Iman [48:18]: “Life for you, in actuality, had been an extremely tough experience because you were sensitive to great many things…”

Further Listening

Stay tuned for the next episode of The Plot Thickens, where Ben Mankiewicz delves into John Ford’s masterpiece, The Searchers, often regarded as the most disturbing Western in cinema history.

Transcript

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Not all meals are created equal.

[Scott Iman]

For instance, breakfast has the spicy egg.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

McMuffin for a limited time and lunch doesn't.

[Scott Iman]

McDonald's breakfast comes first.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Hey, Ben here. Just a quick heads up. This episode has some offensive language. In the days and weeks after D Day, John Ford was a wreck. Whatever he witnessed on that beach, close friends like John Wayne could see he came back a different man.

[Scott Iman]

There was a change in Jack because he liked to play soldier before the war, but after he'd been out there, you know, then it was a different thing.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ford's behavior was even more erratic than usual. His drinking, already prolific, skyrocketed. Mark Armistead, Ford's assistant in the photo field unit, was with him during those dark days.

[Scott Iman]

He's the type of person wondering's too many and a thousand is not enough. He's something happens, stay with him day and night.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

You simply have to stay with him day and night, Armistead said On Ford watch with Armistead was Bill Clothier, a cinematographer, one of Ford's friends. Clothier agreed to let Ford recover at his house. But recuperation for John Ford looked more like relapse. Almost as soon as Ford arrived at Clothier's house, he burrowed himself into a sleeping bag and stayed put, emerging only to get more alcohol. So out of his mind, he wasn't even taking care of himself.

[Scott Iman]

And Bill was upset about him because he peed in the sleeping bag.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That was the last straw for Bill Clothier. Author Mark Harris.

[Scott Iman]

He was so non functional and soiled and disheveled that the guys in the house had to sort of contact his ship and say, get him out of here. Come pick him up and take him away.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Clothier screamed into the phone. I don't give a if he's your commander, get him the hell out of here. He's throwing up all over my room. John Ford needed to find a way to get back on his feet. He needed an escape. But he didn't want to just go back to his usual Hollywood life, to the same old grind from studio bosses.

[Scott Iman]

I wanted a relief. I was anxious to get away from Hollywood, get out in the great open spaces. But not specifically. I'd like to get away from the whole background, probably particularly studio ahead.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

So John Ford went to the desert, to a place that would become synonymous not only with the movies of John Ford, but with the American west itself. A place where he could be what he most liked to be. In charge, untouchable. A place where he could be king. I'm Ben Mankiewicz and this is. The plot thickens. This season, we partnered with Novel for decoding John Ford, the most influential filmmaker of the last 100 years. In the next few episodes, we're going to dive deeper into the legacy of John Ford. How he worked off screen as an artist and on set, with cast and crew all around him. And we'll look at the ideas and myths he developed on screen. Ideas that shaped the way the world still thinks about the west, about men and about America. This is episode five, Monument Valley. Even if you've never seen a John Ford film, you know Monument Valley. This stretch of desert on the Arizona Utah border is where Wile E. Coyote chased the roadrunner.

[Scott Iman]

Meep, Meep.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Where Dennis Hopper and Peter Fonda rode their Harleys into the sunset in Easy Rider, where the Griswold family spent their summer vacation.

[Scott Iman]

Clark, I think we're lost.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And where Forrest Gump finally stopped running.

[Scott Iman]

I had run for three years, two months, 14 days and 16 hours.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Monument Valley is the landscape most of us think of when we close our eyes and picture the American West. A huge expanse of empty desert populated only by red sandstone pillars known as buttes rising off the valley floor like monuments built by some alien civilization. And the reason we have that image in our minds is because of John Ford. Ford first visited Monument Valley just before he went to war after a local rancher named Harry Goulding came out to Hollywood to lobby the studios to come and shoot there. Goulding ran a trading post in Monument Valley where ranchers and indigenous tribes were bartered animal hides and rugs for dry goods. When the Depression hit, Goulding started looking for new ways to bring in money and jobs for the Navajo who lived there. Goulding wasn't in Hollywood long before he met up with John Ford and convinced him to check out the valley.

[Scott Iman]

I went up in a preliminary tour through Monument Valley the first couple of days around those horrific wind storms.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Even with the whipping wind, it was immediately clear this valley held something Ford loved most. Epic, beautiful scenery.

[Scott Iman]

There were big. What do they call those chollas, you know, giant cactus in the background. There are the mountains and the buttes made an interesting setup.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

According to actor and Ford stuntman Ben Johnson. The place also had a sort of ghostliness to it that felt magical.

[Scott Iman]

I'll never forget the first time we went into Goulding's Landing. We got in there just before dark and there's a sheer rock wall runs along there for probably a quarter of a mile. And we drove up in this car and got out and I heard someone holler Way across, just. You can just barely hear them. And then immediately after, kind of the echo, there's one hollers way back over here and right down below us, like a quarter of a mile, these Indians starts singing and dancing. And this sound bounced back against this rock wall and out into this valley. And it was the most eerie sound. If I could have had a recording of that, it would have been priceless. It just. Just makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck. It's really something.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Creature comforts were scarce in the desert, but that didn't deter Ford. In fact, that was part of the charm. The location was almost a character in itself, says Ford biographer Scott Iman.

[Scott Iman]

If you want to see a great location director, watch John Ford. The environment creates character. You don't need lines to explain their behavior, why they're living in this place.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The landscape embodied something essential about Ford's ideal American man. The kind of man he put on screen again and again. The kind of man he aspired to be himself. Rugged, remote, a little wild. So when Ford got a call from Daryl Zanuck at 20th Century Fox with an idea for how to ease him back into civilian work after the war, it was an easy yes. Zanuck told him, listen, John, we've both been through a lot over there. In Europe, things were a little tough.

[Scott Iman]

Once you do a nice, easy Western, you can go back to your favorite spot, Monument Valley. And I've got a story here called My Darling Clementine. I said, I like to do that. Forget about the war and just go out there and enjoy Western. So that's how I started.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ford had spent only a few days in Monument Valley shooting Stagecoach in the late 1930s. But when he returned for My Darling Clementine, he settled in. Between 1946 and 1964, Ford made six films there. There was always a guy on horseback, usually John Wayne, let's go riding off on some honorable mission. And a pretty girl waiting back in town.

[Scott Iman]

Finding her hasn't been easy.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

After My Darling Clementine came Fort Apache.

[Scott Iman]

Think they're headed for the border to join Cochise. That's my. My opinion, sir.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

She wore a yellow ribbon.

[Scott Iman]

Never apologize, mister. It's a sign of weakness.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The searchers.

[Scott Iman]

That'll be the day.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Sergeant Rutledge.

[Scott Iman]

I'm a prisoner now in bad trouble.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And Cheyenne Autumn.

[Scott Iman]

The white man's words are lies.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

All of them Westerns, all shot there in the middle of the desert, 650 miles from Hollywood. When Ford started shooting in Monument Valley, it was just golding's little store and a bunch of tents set up for the cast and crew. An open desert stretching out in all directions.

[Scott Iman]

It was a pretty tough location. But Ford, he just. Well, it was his spot, you know. It was the greatest place in the world as far as he was concerned. I worked hard, felt better, slept well, ate well. It was a very happy time in my life. Locations meant a lot to Ford. Not just as a way of getting out of Hollywood, which was part of it. I'm sure he liked being on location with a crew because he's like a camp director, you know, it's like a summer camp and he's running.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Really was in a sense summer camp. If summer camp were held in the desert. And your fellow campers were some of the most famous people in the world. Each time Ford traveled out to Utah, he brought along a cast of regulars. Names that would appear over and over again in the credits of Ford films. These regulars loosely became known as the John Ford Stock Company. Some were huge stars. John Wayne, Henry Fonda, Maureen o'. Hara. Some were lesser known character actors. Ward Bond, Victor McLaughlin, Mildred Natwick. People lined up for a chance to head to the desert with Ford to work on a movie in any capacity.

[Scott Iman]

I always feel it was like a badge of merit to be able to say I was in the John Floyd Stock Company.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

English actress Anna Lee. She played both the pretty girl and. And the dignified woman in Ford Westerns. She says actors wanted in even if they didn't always know what they were signing up for.

[Scott Iman]

You very rarely got to see a script. You were told you were going to do something in a picture and you didn't know whether it was going to be the leading role or two lines. But you could never say no to him. He wanted you in the picture and that was it.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Henry Fonda was. Was a veteran of Camp Ford.

[Scott Iman]

I've never had more fun in my life than on locations with Ford. Whether it was playing pitch or with campfires or whatever.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It might be hard to think of the volatile, moody John Ford as a good camp counselor. But in some ways he really was. In unexpected ways sometimes. Like every afternoon at 4:30 sharp shooting paused for tea.

[Scott Iman]

The cameraman and the principals and the actors that might be just the day people that day. And they were around a table that was set up with cookies and tea and you had tea. And it was a social 15 minutes to a half hour that was so English. And yet it was Ford's idea.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I'm trying to picture disheveled eye patched and gruff John Ford sipping tea. Once shooting was done for the day, Ford gathered his campers in the mess hall.

[Scott Iman]

Food up there was great, home cooked. Now we all ate together in a communal dining room. Eat, relax, forget about today's work and talk about something else.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That was one of two strict rules at camp Ford.

[Scott Iman]

We forbade shop talk. If anybody broke through, we had to drop 50 cents into a kitty. Unfortunately, it grew to quite a sum. A priest came up from one of the neighboring towns, a very poor parish, and we gave him the money.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ford also forbade drinking of any kind at camp. Even he didn't drink during shoots. If he smelled booze on your breath, you were out of the company in the evenings. Ford liked to play cards for money, an old English game called pitch. Henry Fonda suspected Ford of casting people specifically for their pitch skills. And if you didn't know how to play, Ford would come prepared to initiate you.

[Scott Iman]

He would come to the location with a bag of silver dollars. You give him the paper for the dollars so that everybody had silver.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Why silver? Because with paper money, Ford couldn't hear himself winning.

[Scott Iman]

He loved the sound of plinking money. And when, if he won, he made you pay one at a time around the table. He wanted the sound of that silver coming in. And from the end, he loved the sound of that money, particularly when he won.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The clinks and the banter echoed across the valley buttes.

[Scott Iman]

And this dialogue from the pitch game would hit a but an echo back and forth. And if somebody says shit, you would hear it eight times in echoes.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Like all gamblers, Ford liked to win. Lefty Huff, Ford's longtime prop man, says that if Ford was losing, he'd make you keep playing until he was ahead.

[Scott Iman]

When we were making My Darling clementine, I'd taken $150 silver dollars down there for the pitch game. And I was only supposed to stay one day. So I get in the pitch game first night, but I got more than half of the silver dollars and you won't let me come home. So you're not going to get to come home until I get those silver dollars. Nice car, huh? Took them three days to get it back.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

After pitch died down, the whole company would gather around the campfire for the evening entertainment. Once again, Henry Fonda.

[Scott Iman]

It was Pappy that arranged for the crew to get the long logs. And they were logs, you know, 30ft long and this big round, and drag him into a big circle in a clearing by the camp. And there would be the campfire in the center, and it was a huge fire every Day as big as this table.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Every night everyone would gather around the fire in a huge circle and Fonda would kick things off.

[Scott Iman]

It was my job to plan each night what was going to happen. And Ugly Ward and I would work up songs in three part harmony. There was a guitar player, it seemed to me, or maybe it was a banjo player. And it got so that the company looked forward to it and it was their recreation. They worked all day. They came home and showered and cleaned up and had chow. And then you went to the campfire was.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Far away from home. Eventually, late into the evening, things would die down and people would start to say good night.

[Scott Iman]

At the end of the entertainment and the end of the campfire when it was time to go to bed, there was a bugler on the queue. He would disappear into the wood and he would play Taps. And this was typical, this is typical Ford because he was sentimental and he made people sentimental and he chose or people that would be sentimental. They were his closest friends and I want you to know they would sit around there with tears in their eyes at this haunting Taps coming from the woods in the back of us and just remembering it. I can get emotional about it.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Out here in the middle of nowhere, John Ford was building a community. And it felt like belonging. But underneath that camaraderie, something else was simmering. John Ford was not just a summer camp director. He was also a benevolent dictator. More benevolent to some than others.

[Scott Iman]

I don't know how he had people to idolize him as much as they did when he was so damned obnoxious. He could be absolutely hideous to people. Dreadful. Very, very nasty and unpleasant. He always had to have some whipping boy.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That's coming up after the break.

[Mia Mask]

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[Scott Iman]

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[Scott Iman]

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[Ben Mankiewicz]

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[Scott Iman]

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[Ben Mankiewicz]

See mint mobile.com Monument Valley gave Ford the freedom to make some of his best work out there. No one got in his way. No one checked his impulses, which is how Ford liked it. One time when he was on a shoot, a network suit tried to meddle in a scene.

[Scott Iman]

The old man wanted Stewart to be smoking cigars.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Cinematographer Bill Clothier and the prop man.

[Scott Iman]

Said, we can't use cigars. They can use cigarettes. And the old man said, I want them using cigars. And he said, well, the producer says that you have to use cigarettes because a cigarette company may buy this. Neil man said, well, he's a idiot.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ford ignored the producer and used cigars. The producer later confronted him and he said, I understand you called me an idiot.

[Scott Iman]

The old man said, if I'm going to be quoted, I want to be quoted correctly. I called you a idiot.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ford was always provoking someone, as actress Constance Towers remembered. It seemed to be ingrained in his nature.

[Scott Iman]

He was Irish and he always stirred the pot. He always had somebody upset, and it.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Seemed like Ford was doing it deliberately. Often he would go after people where they were most vulnerable.

[Scott Iman]

Ford had that strange gift of knowing exactly where to insert.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The Ford biographer Scott Iman.

[Scott Iman]

Again, he never raised his voice. He never yelled at anybody. He would simply go for the weak spot, whatever your weak spot happened to be. If your weak spot was you were afraid of your father, then he would be the angry father, the unhappy father. If your weak spot was a drinking problem or you cheated on your wife, he would simply go for the weak spot, whatever it happened to be.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

For actors Walter Brennan and Grant Withers, that weak spot was horses.

[Scott Iman]

He wrote Walter Brennan. And I'll never really understand why.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Brennan and Withers played the bad guys in Ford's 1946 Western, My Darling Clementine.

[Scott Iman]

Howdy.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Howdy.

[Scott Iman]

My name's Clanton. It's my boy Ike.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The two actors had to be on horseback for much of the film, and neither was much of a rider. But Ford made them do their own stunts and then ridiculed them whenever they had trouble. Can't you even mount a horse? Ford yelled at Brennan. He snapped back, no, but I got three Oscars for acting the Other actor, Grant Withers was not just a bad rider. He was deathly afraid of horses. And Ford seized on it. According to actress Joanne Drew, he knew.

[Scott Iman]

That Grant was terrified of horses. And in this particular scene, he said, now, Grant, I hate to do this to you. He said, but you're going to have to ride your own horse. He said, because a very critical shot. The Indians are coming from here. And as you come down the hill, your face goes right past camera. He says, okay, men, mount up.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Go to the top of the hill. Blah, blah, blah. Withers got on the horse and rode to the top of the hill.

[Scott Iman]

So, you know, as all the action scenes, he does action and Jesus. Horses came galloping down past camera, dust every place, people falling off horses. And he yelled, cut. And he said, I'm sorry, man. He said, I think we're gonna have to do this one more time. Something went wrong with the film. Grant just stood there shaking. He was just shaking from head to toe. He says, okay, Withers, come on. We gotta get the shot. Losing the sun. He said, which one is your horse? Or you said, the one with a shit in the saddle.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

On every Ford set, there was always at least one person in the barrel singled out for abuse. And if you weren't on his shit list, it was only a matter of time before you were. As Jimmy Stewart discovered on the set of the man who Shot Liberty Valance.

[Scott Iman]

Duke came up to me one day. He said, how's it come that you've gone through this whole thing and you've never been at the bottom of the list? What is there? You read Apple and the Old man or what? What. What's the idea? And I said, I don't know. And I. I didn't know. But I would say I got a little smug about it.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Maybe someone passed this on to Ford. Who knows? But before filming stopped, Stewart was shooting a scene with Woody Strode, a black actor Ford worked with on four movies.

[Scott Iman]

And for some reason, he does this quite often. But I think this is a part of the tension, a part of Ford. He came up to me, and before we did the scene, he said, what do you think of Woody's costume? Woody was dressed in blue overhauls and blue work shirt and boots. Now, why I said this, I'll never know. What possessed me to say what I did, I'll never know. And it just came out. And I said, well, it looks a little Uncle Remus y, doesn't it? And he froze and walked away.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Uncle Remus is a fictional black character who embodies all of the worst stereotypes. Remus was cozy with his white enslavers and acted as a sort of apologist for slavery. A few minutes after Stewart's remark, Ford brought his cast and crew together.

[Scott Iman]

He said, everybody, would you please gather around. He said, ladies and gentlemen, we have an actor here who objects to the costume on Woody Strode. He says that it's too Uncle Remusy. Now, I don't know why, if this is a sort of a prejudice on Mr. Stewart's part. I don't know whether he's anti Negro, I don't know what it is. But I just wanted to point this out to the whole cast. I wanted to shoot myself. I wanted to crawl into a mouse hole. And Port said, well, that's all, that's all. And everybody. Smith and I looked at Duke Wayne and he was beaming like a cat that had just eaten the mouse. And Duke came over and said, well, welcome to the club. I'm glad you made it.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

This wasn't the only time he did this kind of thing to Jimmy Stewart. Ford was constantly pitting people against each other. Sometimes it seemed for his own amusement and sometimes he seemed to think the hostility would help the actors with their performances. When Jimmy Stewart worked with Ford on two road together, he played a washed out drunk who clashes with an aristocratic West Point grad played by Richard Widmark.

[Scott Iman]

Now you listen to me. Now you listen to me for a change. Now you coming along peaceably or do I have to get rough?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Before filming started, Ford took Stewart aside.

[Scott Iman]

He said, now just between you and me, this Whitmark is a pretty good kind of a country actor. As a matter of fact, he's awful good. So just keep an eye on him and just keep awake at all times or you'll pull the rug right out from under you. Well, I had. I'd never worked with Dick. We became very good friends and everything and everything worked fine. But at the end of the picture I told him about this and Dick said, well, he came up and said the same thing to me about you.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ford seemed to be trying to provoke tension between the two men to help make the antagonism between their characters more authentic. It may have worked on screen, but on his sets it must have felt like John Ford laid a minefield and then asked you to crawl through it. Coming up on the Plot Thickens. There weren't many lines Ford wouldn't cross to get the performances he wanted. I mean, the horrible racist things he said to Woody Strode. As he did in many of his relationships, ford bounced between Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde with Woody Strode. He was on the one hand quite tender and on the other hand, quite miserable.

[Scott Iman]

And it just depended if you could get past the one to see the other.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That's after the break on the plot thickens.

[Scott Iman]

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[Scott Iman]

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[Ben Mankiewicz]

Kidnapped and trapped in a sinister facility, gifted teen Luke Ellis must join other.

[Scott Iman]

Children to fight for their survival. Starring Emmy Award winner Mary Louise Parker, Ben Barnes, and introducing Joe Freeman. The institute, premiering July 13 on MGM.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ford returned to Monument Valley in 1959 to to film Sergeant Rutledge. The movie itself was, for its time, quite progressive. One of the first big Hollywood movies to look at racism straight on.

[Mia Mask]

This is really one of the first films in which a black actor is cast in a leading role in a Western film. Directed by John Ford. Right. The grand poobah of Western filmmaking. That was a watershed moment.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That's Mia Mask, a film professor at Vassar College who's written a book about black Westerns.

[Mia Mask]

This is an era when you're beginning to see more opportunity for African American actors. You begin to have Poitier, Harry Belafonte, Dorothy Dandridge getting more opportunity. But these opportunities are still far and few between. And it's just a select few individuals.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Sergeant Rutledge was a meaty role. The character was a black army sergeant falsely accused of killing his white commanding officer and raping his daughter.

[Mia Mask]

The studios really wanted John Ford to consider Poitier. But John Ford felt that Poitier wasn't tough enough, wasn't rugged enough to portray the character.

[Scott Iman]

Don't touch that gun, Lieutenant. I don't have to. You're gonna hand me that rifle butt end first. No, sir. You take me.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Enter Woody Strode, a former football player just starting to act. In 1946, Strode and his former UCLA teammate Kenny Washington signed with the Los Angeles rams, breaking the NFL's color barrier. That was one year before Jackie Robinson did the same for baseball with the Brooklyn Dodgers in 1959. Strode was new to Hollywood and he was malleable, which might have been part of what Ford liked about him.

[Scott Iman]

Sergeant Rutledge was a John Ford classic. Probably one of my finest acting jobs in the beginning career.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That's Woody Strode in an interview from 1971. It's never been heard before. He said Sergeant Rutledge was ahead of its time.

[Scott Iman]

John Ford thought he would do something graceful way before anybody started to march or decided to do anything. He just did it on his own.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Sergeant Rutledge came out roughly five years into the civil rights movement. Some historians call it Ford's apology Western, a mea culpa for the way he portrayed people of color in his earlier films. The movie focused on a little known part of military history. Regiments of black cavalrymen who served in the west after the Civil War, many of them former slaves. They were called Buffalo Soldiers, the same ones Bob Marley sang about 20 years later.

[Scott Iman]

He said, willie, we would like to show what the black man did in American history that most of us don't know anything about. I knew my mother was born back in those days. But most of the people in not even the black show.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Even if John Ford was trying to make a progressive film, race relations in the real world, even on his own set, were dismal. Black actors couldn't stay in the same hotel as their white co stars.

[Mia Mask]

John Ford, as luminous, as important, as respected as he was, would not have been able to have had the power power to integrate every setting where he was shooting. Because of the nature of segregation during the 50s and 60s, it just would not have been possible, even for somebody with John Ford's cultural clout and power.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Sergeant Rutledge undoubtedly opened doors for Woody Strode, but it was also likely an isolating experience making the movie. Strode was one of only a handful of black actors on set.

[Mia Mask]

A role like this in a film directed by someone as prominent as John Ford was a great opportunity for Woody Strode. But it would have been lonely.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Woody Strode got educated quickly at the school of John Ford. Strode had a big monologue toward the end of the film, a powerful scene where his character explains why he decided to to return to his unit as a wanted man. It required a moving performance from Strode.

[Scott Iman]

The scene on the stand where I refused to talk at her, hollering and screaming and hammered on me. At this moment, the sensitivity had to show. He had to get a real true emotion from me. The old man started persecuting.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The afternoon before they shot, Ford invited Strode over to his son Pat's house for a drink, handed him the biggest mug of whiskey Strode had ever seen. Strode doesn't remember much of what happened after that. He just remembers waking up in the sitting room the next day and rushing over to the set. And remember, a John Ford set was strictly dry. No alcohol allowed. Ford walked over to Strode, smelled his breath, read in the riot act in front of the whole cast and crew, then rolled the camera. It was time for Woody Strode's monologue.

[Scott Iman]

Why did I come back? My answer to the prosecuting attorney was, because the 9th Cavalry of my hall, they're my real freedom. My real freedom and my self respect. And my self respect and the way I was running and the way I was deserting it. I wasn't nothing worse than a swamp running. And I ain't that. Do you hear me? I'm a man. And I stood up and the water started, and I got mad because I was embarrassed. And I hit the seat and I broke the seat in the first scene.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It was a hell of a performance, truly memorable. It was also a big deal for a novice actor like Strode being directed by John Ford. Transformative, even. And Strode clearly appreciated what he learned from Ford. But it's hard to get your mind around some of the tactics Ford used to elicit that performance.

[Mia Mask]

There were times when he was abused physically, when John Ford would hit him, step on his foot, told him bend over and hit him on the backside with the butt of a rifle, and would really haze him. It's really unpleasant, the kind of language that Ford would sometimes use to belittle Strode. During the production of Sergeant Rutledge, he repeatedly uses the N word. Woody, stop niggering up my production.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

On the set of Two Road Together, which also featured Woody Strode, Ford got angry with Strode for drinking with some of the Navajo. When the crew broke for lunch, Ford was sitting with the film's two white stars. As Strode walked up to join them, Ford told him he couldn't sit down, but he didn't stop there. He threw a racial slur at Strode and told him he'd have to eat alone.

[Mia Mask]

He was hazing everybody, but he was hazing Woody Strode in a way that he couldn't haze everybody else. Manipulating his vulnerability of as a raced subject, taking advantage of that vulnerability. These must have been very difficult, lonely, isolating moments for Strode on set, because you're simultaneously part of the cast, part of the family, part of the unit, and yet you have John Ford reminding, oh, you're not really like us. You're not one of us. So get over there.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Woody Strode said John Ford split his personality with the way he directed him.

[Mia Mask]

W.E.B. du Bois talks about the fact that African Americans are already split in some ways. Two warring souls inside one body, being both American and African American, having to walk that line. But I think what Woody Strode means is that John Ford kept coming at him in ways that were sometimes unpredictable, sometimes very emotional, sometimes violent and hard to navigate. He has said in one point in his biography, I wanted to hit the old man, you know? But on the other hand, he respected him and knew what he had done for him. John Ford really put Woody Strode on the map.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Some of the people who defended Ford's methods are the very people he tormented, including Woody Strode.

[Scott Iman]

I've had the greatest direction from this guy. I don't know. He's played all my emotions. I had them all there. He just bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. He was playing me just like the heart. And John Ford got it out on me. I didn't realize what I really had. John Ford saw it in me.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Many in Ford's stock company seem to feel this way. Actress Maureen o' Hara starred in five of his films.

[Scott Iman]

You'd be driving home, and you had just spent a day working with him. And your feelings as you drove home was, my God, I'm good. I'm magnificent. I'm going to be the biggest star in Hollywood. Because he might have been mad at you, he might have destroyed you and insulted you, but he also gave you great confidence in yourself. Believe me, I would rather work with the. Pardon me, the old bastard than not. He was magnificent.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Not everyone found Ford's manipulations charming. Constance Towers was the female lead in Sergeant Rutledge. She had a scene with a young black actor where she was supposed to comfort him.

[Scott Iman]

I was the arch type, pristine young white woman. And I was holding him in my arms, and I was giving him water out of my canteen to try to.

[Mia Mask]

Help him, and he was dying.

[Scott Iman]

Thank you.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Mayor Towers noticed the actor seemed anxious beyond what the scene called for.

[Scott Iman]

And this young man was so shy of me and pulling back from me. And I was trying so hard to be in the scene, to be loving and helpful, that I didn't understand it. And later, a man came up to me, and it was that actor. And he said, you know, I always felt so bad because Mr. Ford told me that you didn't like black people. And I thought, oh, he did it to me, that here was a John Ford trick. And he had played it on me, and I didn't get it. He set that up. So I was uncomfortable. The boy was uncomfortable. It was exactly what he wanted. And I turned to him and said, you don't trust me as an actor? You know, if you don't think I can give you the emotion you want. And he would always pick up his, you know, the patch he had on his eye and wink at me and then put the patch back.

[Mia Mask]

And it was, you know, you had.

[Scott Iman]

To go along with his tricks and his. His ways.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ford certainly wasn't alone in being tyrannical on set. Preminger, Kubrick, Wells, these guys were notorious for being merciless. They all made it seem like being a great director was almost synonymous with cruelty.

[Mia Mask]

It wasn't uncommon for these maverick directors to have these really unorthodox and sometimes bullying methods. Everybody knows the stories about Hitchcock and Tippi Hedren and how he drove her to a literal emotional breakdown on the set of the Birds.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Alfred Hitchcock had assured Tippi Hedren they would be using mechanical birds for filming the movie's climactic attack scene. At the last moment, Hitchcock substituted the fake birds with real ones. Hedren had to endure five harrowing days being assaulted by actual Angry Birds. So John Ford wasn't the only one. But he definitely was one of the Hollywood men who helped shape the myth that abuse, when it comes from a genius, was a sign of affection. Here's Scott Iman again.

[Scott Iman]

The thing about Ford is he was perverse, emotionally perverse. If he liked you, he gave you a hard time. If he didn't like you, you didn't exist. He'd look through you. He wouldn't talk to you. You simply weren't there.

[Mia Mask]

We talked today about this phrase, toxic masculinity. We might say this was a kind of toxic directorial sensibility. You don't necessarily have to break somebody or make them feel so small or exploit their vulnerabilities to pull those performances out of them.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But Ford seemed only to know one way. If you wanted to work with the most powerful director in Hollywood, you had to put up with it. Though Ford did sometimes pay a price for how he treated people his decades long grudges pushed away some of his closest friends until it was too late. Harry Carey saw the best and the worst of Ford. He'd been John Ford's first friend in Hollywood. First roommate, first leading man. Their families were extremely close. Here's Harry, Cary's son, Dobie.

[Scott Iman]

I've always felt related, blood related to John Ford. I know that, that John Ford loves me like a son and I love him like a Father like, you know, I love him deeply.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

After they'd been friends for years, Ford heard that Dobie's father, Harry Carey, was gossiping, spreading rumors that maybe Ford was gay. It's worth noting that he wasn't the only one. Maureen o' Hara later wrote in her memoir that she'd seen Ford kissing another man. But when Ford heard what Harry Carey said, he iced him out professionally. If you got into an argument with the old man, he would blackball you from films until he was ready to.

[Scott Iman]

Forgive you or you, you know, were willing to apologize.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ford biographer Scout Tafoya. But he would always pull up before.

[Scott Iman]

He couldn't be forgiven because the one thing he couldn't stomach is the idea.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Of people turning their backs on him. With Harry Carey, though, you get the sense Ford didn't pull up in time. Ford held a grudge after those rumors. And they rarely worked together again. In the end, Ford paid a price for his stubbornness. Harry Carey got sick with lung cancer in 1947, 26 years into Ford blackballing him. Ford rushed to the bedside of his first Hollywood friend. Carrie's wife. Olive recounted what happened.

[Scott Iman]

He came down to the ranch and he and Harry got pissy ass drunk. Oh, Jesus. And I mean pissy ass drunk. Criminy sakes. And to Harry passed out. I got him to bed.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

So I go out in the kitchen.

[Scott Iman]

And then Ford's sitting out there in the kitchen and he's got a crying Jack on drew one all down his chin and crying. And he died. The day Harry died, Jack arrived and he was alongside of him on his knees when he died. And I went out into the patio and Jack came out and he took a hold of me and put his head on my breast and cried. And the whole front of my sweater was sopping wet all the way down the front. He cried for at least 15 or 20 minutes. Just solid, solid sobbing most dramatically, never once seen.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

There is some tragic irony in Ford's behavior in the way he could treat people. It may well have kept him from the thing he seemed to want the most. To be a real part of the family he was building there in the desert of Monument Valley.

[Scott Iman]

He always wanted to be one of the guys. There'd be a circle on the set, a group of people, and he'd see them laughing and having a good time. And he wanted to be part of that. But when he'd come into it, it would all stop. And everybody would, you know, be watching what they said. And he wanted very much, much to be a part of that, but he never could be. You know, you felt that he missed that camaraderie.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Maybe the only version of camaraderie Ford could stomach was one where intimacy and male bonding had to come with a side of torment and abuse. And maybe these dual sides of Ford weren't actually contradictory at all. Maybe that's what happens sometimes when you feel the world won't accept your true nature. That was Katharine Hepburn's theory, and when she told him so, Ford agreed.

[Scott Iman]

Life for you, in actuality, had been an extremely tough experience because you were sensitive to great many things that people would never suspect you of being sensitive about that you were torn apart by a great number of things that you never could admit to being torn apart about. Is that correct? I think that's true, yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

So Ford hid his tenderness under spiked armor and military medals. And he didn't just play out this volatile masculinity on set. He put that version of a man on screen. And in doing so, he shaped the country, even the world's idea of what it means to be a man.

[Mia Mask]

Who knows what John Ford was up to, or if it always was motivated from a place of artistic expression. He was also just kind of a mean guy, you know, with. With his own problems. That doesn't mean that we can't watch and enjoy and love some of his films. We have to talk about both. We have to take the good with the bad.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Next time on the plot thickens.

[Scott Iman]

The Searchers just kind of haunts me.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

When you're wrestling with Ford, you are basically wrestling with the Searchers. We look at Ford's masterpiece, the most disturbing Western in cinema history.

[Scott Iman]

I think Ethan is kind of an idealized projection of Ford's own damaged psyche. Living with Comanches ain't being alive.

[Mia Mask]

What a perplexing man. And what a perplexing set of films he has left us with.

[Scott Iman]

Foreign.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Is our director of podcasts. Story editor is Karen Duffin. Jaco Friedman is our senior producer. Script writing by Jacob Friedman, Maya Croth, and James Sheridan, who also fact check every episode for us. Audio editing and sound design by Brandon Ardle, James Kim, and Mike Vulgaris. Mixing by Glenn Matullo. Research by Matt Goldberg. Production support from Liz Winter, Allison Fire, Matthew Ownby, Julie Bettone, Emma Morris, Susan Bsac, Dorie Stegman, and Phil Richards. Thanks to our legal team, Jon Renau and Kristen Hassell, and to the talents of TCM staffers Taryn Jacobs, Katie Daniels, David Byrne, Diana Bosch, Caroline Wigmore, Michelle Height, Stephanie Thames, and to our resident ford scholar Scott McGee. Our executive producer is Charlie Tabish. Special thanks to Dan Ford for sharing his family archive with us. And to the helpful team at Indiana University's Lilly Library. Special thanks to Prudence Doherty and Chris Burns from the Silver Spot Specials Collections Library at the University of Vermont. From Novel thanks to producer Philippa Goodrich, story editor Veronica Simmons, researcher Valeria Raka, assistant producer Nadia Mehdi, production managers Cherie Houston and Charlotte Wolf, executive producer Max o', Brien, and creative director Willard Foxton. Thomas Avery of Toonwelders composed our theme music. Ben I'm your host, Ben Mankiewicz. Thanks for listening. See you next time.