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- [00:00]
John Ford
The McDonald's Snack Wrap is back. You brought it back. Ranch Snack wrap. Spicy Snack wrap. You broke the Internet for a snack? Snack wrap is back.
- [00:15]
Ben Mankiewicz
On the far edge of Portland, Maine, where John Ford was born, there's a shoreline park called the Eastern Promenade. Locals call it the Prom. They come here to jog or bike or walk their dogs on a path along the water. Mostly, though, they just sit and stare. That's because beyond the sailboats and past the tiny islands just off the coast, the horizon looks like it goes on forever. John Ford spent a long time staring out at that horizon as a kid, breathing in the scent of salt and seaweed.
- [00:55]
John Ford
I enjoyed the sea very, very much. If you're at sea, you're free.
- [01:02]
Ben Mankiewicz
So Years later, in 1934, when Ford had a little money, he bought himself a boat. More accurately, a yacht. Though Ford refused to call it that. A yacht was too Hollywood. He named his not a yacht the Aroner, after the Aran Islands in Ireland, where his grandmother was from. Being on the Arener meant you were in Ford's special little group, his inner circle. He called the group the Emerald Bay Yacht Club. Its motto, the Yacht Club for people who don't like yacht clubs. The arena became the centerpiece for nearly every part of John Ford's life. It was his home away from home, his floating office. Sometimes he even used it for classified military operations. We'll get to that. Often, though, it was a party boat, a place to gather with his closest friends, like those two football players he met on his 1929 film Salute John Wayne or Duke and Ward Bond.
- [02:13]
John Ford
Duke Wayne, Ward Bond. I was son of a threesome. We played cards together, swam together, drank together. We were three very close friends. I was aboard the boat for Christ sakes, as much as he was.
- [02:27]
Ben Mankiewicz
In case you don't recognize the voice, that's John Wayne.
- [02:31]
John Ford
We go out on his boat and maybe stay for two or three weeks and maybe we'd say hello at breakfast time or maybe at lunch. But it didn't depend on continuous conversation.
- [02:45]
Ben Mankiewicz
John Wayne spent so much time on the arena that after Wayne got famous, people assumed it was his boat.
- [02:52]
John Ford
So there's the Aaron. There's John Wayne's boat. That's John Wayne up there. Now, Jack could get up. Not John Wayne's boat. It's John Ford boat. I'm sitting there laughing.
- [03:04]
Ben Mankiewicz
Sometimes Ford's daughter Barbara would find her father and Wayne playing a card game called Honeymoon Bridge.
- [03:11]
John Ford
I raise you. So one day I came down and.
- [03:13]
Ben Mankiewicz
I said, why do you call it Honeymoon bridge and daddy says, cuz we're.
- [03:18]
John Ford
Trying to screw each other.
- [03:22]
Ben Mankiewicz
Actor Henry Fonda says, along with the cards, the fishing, the swimming and the drinking, there was also live music aboard the Are.
- [03:33]
John Ford
He loved the mariachis. You know, when you were in Mexico with him on the boat, he had on the board.
- [03:38]
Ben Mankiewicz
When I think John Ford, I don't think mariachis. But Ford was apparently obsessed with them.
- [03:45]
John Ford
Always with the mariachis following him. He would bring them aboard and they would play on the deck or even.
- [03:52]
Ben Mankiewicz
Down in the saloon with mariachis trailing them. They would wander into towns along the Mexican coast.
- [03:59]
John Ford
He was a good companion to be with, to go ashore with him and to do the rounds. Sometimes there were the rounds of the whorehouses, you know, not for sex even, just because it was colorful and you have drinks in them and bought it from bar to bar. Cause he was always drinking when you were on those trips.
- [04:17]
Ben Mankiewicz
And when Ford dragged himself back to the boat to recover, he didn't hole up in the captain suite.
- [04:24]
John Ford
He used to live like one of the crew on the boat.
- [04:27]
Ben Mankiewicz
This is John Wayne's son Michael. He lived in a little tiny place, you know, like you'd walk down an.
- [04:33]
John Ford
Aisle way and then there'd be a bunk right there. And that's where he lived. Instead of living like a major director, he lived like a spy.
- [04:40]
Ben Mankiewicz
That is an interesting choice of words because strangely enough, Ford was in fact using his not a yacht for exactly that, to spy for the US government.
- [04:54]
John Ford
I was going to trip down the Mexican coast. There's Scavengers Lagoon. Difficult place to get into.
- [05:00]
Ben Mankiewicz
This was just three years before the start of World War II. The US was afraid Japan might send spies out on fishing boats off the west coast. Ford spent half his time out in those waters. So a Navy connection of his reached out, asked Ford to keep an eye out for anything suspicious. He did. And one day there in that Mexican lagoon, John Ford spotted a Japanese boat.
- [05:28]
John Ford
We took a small boat, went in. There was signs of occupation. I found a copy of a Japanese newspaper. So we gave conclusive proof that the Japanese have been in there, are using it for some purpose.
- [05:43]
Ben Mankiewicz
Ford reported back to Naval Intelligence, told them what he'd found. Ford had long wanted to be in the military. This was his first taste of it. The beginning of a tug of war for John Ford between his two loves. On one hand, the movies, his art, his boys club, his paycheck. On the other, the military. The chance to serve his country, to stand proud in a uniform, to be part of the action instead of just directing it. As it turned out, he used one to get to the other. John Ford did make his way into the military. But to get there, he had to conquer Hollywood first. I'm your host, Ben Mankiewicz. You're listening to season five of the Plot Thickens, a podcast from Turner Classic Movies. Each season we bring you an in depth story about the movies and the people who make them. This season we partnered with novel for decoding John Ford, the most influential filmmaker of the last hundred years. This is episode two, the Arener. By the 1930s, Ford had some success under his belt. What he didn't have was an Oscar. That was about to change. In 1932, Ford came across a novel called the Informer.
- [07:24]
John Ford
I just read a story about my cousin Liam o', Flaherty, an Irish writer.
- [07:30]
Ben Mankiewicz
By the way, this is actually true. Liam o' Flaherty was Ford's cousin. His novel was like a bingo card of all of Ford's interests. It's set during a war, a war in Ireland. The Irish War for Independence.
- [07:46]
John Ford
Naturally, as a first generation Irishman, I was interested. So something very near and dear to my heart. And I had been to Ireland during the trouble. So I was confiscant with what the IRA were and all the method.
- [08:02]
Ben Mankiewicz
Ford was hooked. He decided to adapt the book into a movie. He invited a screenwriter friend named Dudley Nichols to join him on the arena and the two turned the boat into their working office.
- [08:16]
John Ford
Dudley got up at 5:30 in the morning, went fishing alone. By that time the marlin were alive and hungry. They fished all day.
- [08:24]
Ben Mankiewicz
Nichols was a former newspaper man who wrote fast and well. He had served in the Navy during World War I and had some Irish in his blood. No wonder Ford liked him. After a long day of fishing, Dudley Nichols would leave the marlin behind and dive into the screenplay.
- [08:46]
John Ford
In the evening I could hear him tapping on his typewriter. Finish the script as far as we could go.
- [08:54]
Ben Mankiewicz
A few weeks later, when they docked in the resort town of Acapulco, Mexico, Nichols brought forward the finished script.
- [09:01]
John Ford
He says I didn't do a good job because I think I fished too much and wrote too little.
- [09:07]
Ben Mankiewicz
But Ford liked it. He joked they wrote better when they were a little seasick. The studio liked it too. So the Aaroner quickly sailed back to Los Angeles so Ford could start production on the Informer. Ford cast a beefy British actor named Victor McLaughlin to play the lead. A hard drinking Irishman who informs the British police where they can find a fugitive Irish soldier. He does it for the reward money, £20.
- [09:42]
John Ford
I didn't know what I was doing, Dad.
- [09:44]
Ben Mankiewicz
I didn't know what I was doing. Ford shot the entire movie in just over a month. Working fast, but still taking artistic risks. Ford used Deep Shadows to mirror the internal conflict of the main character.
- [10:00]
John Ford
What are you talking about? Informing for informant.
- [10:03]
Ben Mankiewicz
He pretty much created a film noir before anyone knew what film noir was.
- [10:10]
John Ford
That's the one that informed on Frankie McPhillip. I saw him and he knows it.
- [10:15]
Ben Mankiewicz
It's a lie.
- [10:16]
John Ford
It's a lie.
- [10:19]
Ben Mankiewicz
The Informer came out in May 1935. When a group of New York film critics screened it, they did something unusual. They burst into applause. Then they voted the Informer the best picture of the year. The praise turned the movie into a moneymaker.
- [10:37]
John Ford
It was a landmark for me because I've been doing cheap stories and this thing. At least I got great critical acclaim.
- [10:46]
Ben Mankiewicz
With the Informer, Ford won his first Oscar for Best Director. It also won Best Adapted Screenplay for Dudley Nichols and Best actor for Victor McLaughlin. From there, Ford's career picked up steam. He began making two or three big movies a year, all types of movies. He directed Katharine Hepburn in a costume drama called Mary of Scotland.
- [11:12]
John Ford
So the first step to prove me guilty is to murder those who would prove me innocent.
- [11:18]
Ben Mankiewicz
He made a highly regarded disaster adventure. The Hurricane. Marvelous Falling.
- [11:22]
John Ford
I tell you, Gene, you must listen. I'll listen to one voice, only my own.
- [11:26]
Ben Mankiewicz
He even made a movie with an actress no one associates with John Ford, Shirley Temple. Their film is called Wee Willie Winkie. How can I get to be a soldier? You really. It's important. Still, there was one genre missing. Ford had cut his teeth on westerns in the 1920s. He hadn't made one in over a decade. But in 1937, Ford came across a western he believed in. He didn't know it at the time, but the project would lead to one of the most important and complicated relationships in his life. Though it nearly didn't happen, they all.
- [12:10]
John Ford
Refused to have anything to do with the picture. Know you're touching.
- [12:15]
Ben Mankiewicz
Months earlier, Ford's 16 year old son Pat brought him an idea for a film. Pat had been reading a short story in Collier's Magazine about a band of unlikely travel companions making their way through dangerous territory in a horse drawn stagecoach. Pat told his father he thought it would make a great movie. Ford agreed and enlisted his old fishing pal Dudley Nichols to write the screenplay. They called the movie Stagecoach. Though Ford and Nichols were each Oscar winners for the Informer, producer after producer turned Them down.
- [12:54]
John Ford
All for the same reason you can't do a Western. I mean, don't look at them. Westerns are a dead issue.
- [13:02]
Ben Mankiewicz
It was the first American genre, really. And it survived all throughout the 20s. And finally, at about 19:30, it becomes a B picture. That's Scout Tafoya, who's written extensively about Ford. Westerns had become the domain of low budget studios by the 1930s. The movies ended up in Saturday matinees or as the second film in a double feature. The major studios had just moved on from westerns. They wanted dramas, they wanted crime pictures, they wanted anything else because A, those won awards, B, audiences wanted to see them and C, they said something. It's very rare that you're going to.
- [13:40]
John Ford
Find a western that truly seems like.
- [13:42]
Ben Mankiewicz
Somebody has done something completely new with it. But Ford rejected this idea. He kept telling producers to look past the genre to the story.
- [13:53]
John Ford
You know, this is not a western. This is a fine story story, a great, great character.
- [14:00]
Ben Mankiewicz
For a different filmmaker, this might have been the end of the story. Not John Ford. He loved proving people wrong. He just kept shopping Stagecoach until he finally got a yes. An independent producer named Walter Wanger was a huge fan of the Informer. He offered to pay for Stagecoach just for the chance to work with John Ford.
- [14:26]
John Ford
What fascinating stories there were in the life of a stagecoach, in the lives of these American frontiers, frontier characters. John Ford has created a truly great motion picture, Stagecoach.
- [14:39]
Ben Mankiewicz
Stagecoach became a massive hit. It was nominated for seven Oscars, winning two. Orson Welles said he watched Stagecoach on repeat before making Citizen Kane. Stagecoach was so popular in part because of the sophisticated technique behind its action scenes. A technique executed almost entirely by one man, Yakima Canutt. Canutt was a former rodeo cowboy who did stunts for decades in Hollywood. Here's Scott McGee, my colleague at TCM who wrote a book about stunt work.
- [15:17]
John Ford
He had developed a lot of best practices of how to make stunts safe, cheap and effective for the camera.
- [15:29]
Ben Mankiewicz
Together, Knut and Ford developed a groundbreaking stunt for Stagecoach. The scene has Apache warriors on horseback chasing the stagecoach, carrying passengers across the salt flats of Utah. The stagecoach is being pulled by six horses. Yakima Canat is dressed as one of the Apaches. And he jumps from his galloping horse onto the stagecoach. Horses which are also at full gallop. Then he's shot at and falls. He grabs the crossbar between the horses, hovering inches above the ground, moving at a frightening speed.
- [16:17]
John Ford
And Yakima Canut, as the stuntman hangs there and is dragged underneath the horses between the Horses at full speed. He lets go and then the stagecoach kind of runs over him safely. When you see that stunt Stagecoach, it just looks like a guy's doing the stunt for real. Because he is. Because he is.
- [16:38]
Ben Mankiewicz
That's Ford biographer Scott Iman.
- [16:41]
John Ford
There's no special effects here. There's no harnesses that are going to lift him up in case something goes wrong.
- [16:48]
Ben Mankiewicz
And that reality, physical reality, emotional reality.
- [16:52]
John Ford
Is something that's present in John Ford's.
- [16:53]
Ben Mankiewicz
Work all the time. The Stagecoach stunt is a combination of skill, bravery and maybe a touch of insanity. Nobody who saw it could forget it. It's why Steven Spielberg used it in Raiders of the Lost Ark with a modern twist.
- [17:17]
John Ford
In Raiders, horses would be replaced by a five ton truck.
- [17:23]
Ben Mankiewicz
Harrison Ford's stunt double, Terry Leonard, came up with the idea and presented it to Steven Spielberg.
- [17:30]
John Ford
He said, there's a stunt that I tried to do that I was actually copping. Yakima Canute, the famous stunt, and Stagecoach, where he went under all the horses. Horses and the covered wagon. Is there any way you can add a stunt where I go under the truck and come back out to the site?
- [17:46]
Ben Mankiewicz
That's exactly what they did. A terrific movie moment and a perfect homage to Stagecoach. Though the stunts in Stagecoach are impressive, arguably the most important thing to come out of the film is was its lead actor. Stagecoach marked the first time this actor played a significant role in a John Ford film. It became the spark that ignited a lifelong collaboration.
- [18:18]
John Ford
Time came into a Stagecoach. I thought about Duke.
- [18:23]
Ben Mankiewicz
Not many people were thinking about Duke Wayne at this moment in Hollywood, he'd been in roughly 80 films, a lot of small roles and some leads in quick, cheap Westerns. He was hardly an obvious choice for the leading man in a John Ford film. Moreover, Ford hadn't worked with Wayne in eight years, though they had remained good friends. Here's John Wayne, who, like a lot of people in Hollywood, called Ford Jack.
- [18:53]
John Ford
I never expected anything from Jack and I sure that he knew that, you know, he knew that mine was a friendship and not a desire to get anything out of it.
- [19:06]
Ben Mankiewicz
On a hot summer day in 1937, as they were hanging out on board the Are, Ford told Wayne about Stagecoach, about why he thought it would make a great picture. Ford was luring Wayne in, hoping he'd want to play the lead.
- [19:24]
John Ford
He said, well, jeez, I got a great story here. You want to read? I read it. It's a little short story. He said, who the hell in this business could play that part?
- [19:34]
Ben Mankiewicz
Wayne did not get the hint. He started Suggesting other actors.
- [19:40]
John Ford
I said, there's only one guy, Lloyd Nolan, that played in Two for Texas or some goddamn thing. I said, have you seen that picture? He said, no.
- [19:51]
Ben Mankiewicz
Never. A patient man, John Ford finally stopped beating around the bush.
- [19:56]
John Ford
He said, for Christ's sakes, couldn't you play it? He just knocked me out.
- [20:01]
Ben Mankiewicz
Of course, John Wayne agreed, if only to avoid arguing with Ford. There was one problem, though. Ford's money man, producer Walter Wanger, wanted a big name for the lead. Wanger suggested Gary Cooper, a stoic actor who was a real Montana cowboy before becoming a movie star. Ford fought for Wayne and fought hard. He said at the time, the backers don't want him. The producer doesn't want him. I want him. John Wayne became the Ringo Kid.
- [20:43]
John Ford
Steady. Hoo hoo. Hey, look, It's Ringo.
- [20:46]
Ben Mankiewicz
About 20 minutes into Stagecoach, the audience gets its first glimpse of the Ringo Kid. A horseled stagecoach is rolling through the desert when a shot rings out.
- [21:01]
John Ford
Hold it.
- [21:05]
Ben Mankiewicz
John Wayne is standing alone in the desert, wearing a Stetson, cowboy hat, a bandana around his neck, and in one hand he's twirling a six shooter rifle. Watching this moment on screen, you can almost feel the spark, the special alchemy of John Wayne and John Ford coming together. It's as if this is the exact moment they hitched their stars to each other. As Wayne twirls his rifle, the camera pushes in on him, giving us a rarity for a John Ford film at the time. A tight close up on John Wayne's.
- [21:46]
John Ford
Face.
- [21:48]
Ben Mankiewicz
As if John Ford was telling the world. Keep an eye on this John Wayne guy.
- [21:56]
John Ford
Didn't expect to see you riding shotgun on this run, Marshall.
- [22:01]
Ben Mankiewicz
With this one shot, John Wayne becomes a movie star.
- [22:06]
John Ford
You're the notorious Ringo Kid. Friends just call me Ringo. Nickname I had as a kid. My name's Henry Wayne was the focus of every scene.
- [22:15]
Ben Mankiewicz
Scott Iman.
- [22:16]
John Ford
Again, Wayne's response was the focus of every scene. His reaction, the character of the Ringo Kid's reaction. Looks like I got the plague, don't it? And if you watch the film, all the other characters are watching the Ringo Kid to see how he reacts. Ringo. Wayne understood that what Ford was doing was throwing him the film. And it put Wayne on a wholly different plateau. And he never really looked back. So at bottom, Wayne believed he owed Ford more than he could ever repay.
- [22:49]
Ben Mankiewicz
Stagecoach reinvigorated the Western, and it put John Wayne right in the middle of the Hollywood map. But as Wayne learned, there's always a price to pay. With John Ford coming Up. John Ford makes John Wayne's life a living hell.
- [23:11]
John Ford
Oh man. Son of a. Geez. I was so mad that Mike could have killed him.
- [23:26]
Ben Mankiewicz
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- [23:29]
John Ford
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- [23:32]
Ben Mankiewicz
Greenlight is a debit card in the.
- [23:34]
John Ford
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- [23:38]
Ben Mankiewicz
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- [23:42]
John Ford
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- [23:44]
Ben Mankiewicz
Build money, confidence and skills in fun ways. Start your risk free Greenlight trial today@greenlight.com.
- [23:51]
John Ford
Spotify that's greenlight.com Spotify hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways.
- [23:58]
Ben Mankiewicz
To tell you that Mint's offer of.
- [23:59]
John Ford
Unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun.
- [24:05]
Ben Mankiewicz
If we made $15 bills, but it.
- [24:08]
John Ford
Turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment.
- [24:16]
Ben Mankiewicz
$45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first time three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks.
- [24:22]
John Ford
Busy taxes and fees extra.
- [24:23]
Ben Mankiewicz
Cementmobile.com John Ford seemed to have an allergic reaction to his own generosity. If he was nice, he'd immediately do the opposite.
- [24:34]
John Ford
It's the Ringo Kid.
- [24:36]
Ben Mankiewicz
This is something John Wayne quickly discovered on the set of Stagecoach. There's a scene in the movie where the Ringo Kid steps off the stagecoach into the hot sun, then walks over to a bucket to wash his face.
- [24:51]
John Ford
And I say, when I go with you, Sheriff, you know, get. About halfway through the scene, the foreground cut.
- [25:01]
Ben Mankiewicz
Ford walked over to Wayne and laid into him. He didn't like how Wayne was washing his face in the scene.
- [25:08]
John Ford
Say, for Christ's sakes, wash your face. Don't you ever wash it home, you know? He says, you're dobbing your face, you're dobbing your face. Shit, I was mad. Son of bitch. Jeez, I was so fucking mad that Mike could have killed him.
- [25:24]
Ben Mankiewicz
Ford was so mean to Wayne, it made everyone else mad too.
- [25:29]
John Ford
And he got the whole cast hating him for doing it. To where finally even Tim Holt, the young kid, is saying, God damn it, you quit playing. Picking on Duke like that.
- [25:41]
Ben Mankiewicz
John Wayne was learning what many before him already knew and many after would soon discover. For all of his genius and generosity, John Ford was a bully. It seemed to be part of Ford's Idea of how a man in charge should act. Ford was obsessed with that idea, what it means to be a man. And he projected that obsession into his films. Katharine Hepburn pointed this out to him in a conversation they had late in his life. What happened to you in, in your.
- [26:19]
John Ford
Work, in your career was that the subjects that interested you were really practically.
- [26:24]
Ben Mankiewicz
A hundred percent masculine. Of all the actors who ever worked for Ford, no one understood him better than Katharine Hepburn.
- [26:34]
John Ford
I spent a lot of time analyzing your character.
- [26:40]
Ben Mankiewicz
Ford and Hepburn made only one movie together, but they were extremely close. So close. There were rumors they had an affair, though neither ever confirmed it. You can hear their chemistry in these tapes. Hepburn brought out a playful side of Ford he usually kept hidden.
- [26:59]
John Ford
I think we had fundamental respect for each other. And I think that is the most lasting quality in the world. I think I. That and the fact that you beat the hell out of me at golf. Well, that nearly finished our friendship that God nearly needed.
- [27:17]
Ben Mankiewicz
Ford hated to talk about himself. He flat out refused to self analyze.
- [27:23]
John Ford
You're very secretive about the personal things in your life. So are you. Well, we're secretive New Englanders, but you're much worse than I am.
- [27:35]
Ben Mankiewicz
Hepburn seemed to understand what made Ford tick. Which meant she understood the male characters he crafted on screen. Men who were hyper macho but also surprisingly sensitive.
- [27:50]
John Ford
That type of male, that is that sort of over masculine, you know, pretended to be very tough and was always talking about fighting and the hair on his chest and everything else. You know, tough guy was easily thrown totally by a word.
- [28:08]
Ben Mankiewicz
Totally thrown by a word. That line makes me wonder. Is Hepburn really talking about Ford's characters here or is she hinting at at John Ford himself. The tough guy who hides his sensitive side more often than not. When Ford cast this tough guy on screen, it was John Wayne he plugged into the role. Take the Ringo Kid and Stagecoach.
- [28:40]
John Ford
You may need me in this Winchester, Curly.
- [28:43]
Ben Mankiewicz
The Ringo Kid is protective and loyal. He rarely says more than he has to. Wayne's character may not say much, but he does carry a big gun and he's not afraid to use it.
- [28:57]
John Ford
Three against one in Law Firm. Well, there's some things a man just can't run away from.
- [29:02]
Ben Mankiewicz
The Ringo Kid is looking for revenge. Out to kill the man who murdered his father and brother. Revenge was one of the many macho ideals Ford crafted on screen that he, he himself employed off screen. Ford was not a man to forgive and forget, even when it came to family. A few months after Stagecoach, Ford directed a movie called Drums along the Mohawk, his first film in color.
- [29:32]
John Ford
Trust in the Lord and wait until you can make every shot count.
- [29:37]
Ben Mankiewicz
It was a Revolutionary War story starring how Henry Fonda, who was quickly becoming a Ford favorite.
- [29:44]
John Ford
I had to shoot him. There wasn't anything else to do.
- [29:46]
Ben Mankiewicz
I had to. Further down the cast list was a familiar name. Francis Ford, John Ford's older brother. Over the years, the roles between big brother and little brother had reversed. As John Starr rose Francis fell. John was now giving Francis bit parts in movies instead of the other way around. Over and over again, John Ford had.
- [30:16]
John Ford
Him play the character of the town drunk. You drink liquor, Sam?
- [30:20]
Ben Mankiewicz
Yep. Historian Kathy Fuller Seeley says it's hard to know whether John and Francis were close. Francis mentions John one sentence in a 350 page autobiography. But Francis Ford would not been in 30 of John Ford films if there hadn't been that deep family bond. So I think both a healthy rivalry, but also a deep family bond. Certainly there was a bond, but there was also a grudge. It was clear John was still upset over how Francis used and abused him as a stunt double. During John's early days making silent films in Hollywood, Francis had put his younger brother in dangerous situations. Once he had a grenade explode on John. Another time, John had to take a huge leap from a moving train. Before that jump, John turned to Francis and said, you will owe me. And years later, during Drums along the Mohawk, John made Francis pay up. He cast Francis as Joe, a loony old hermit. He has one standout scene.
- [31:34]
John Ford
Ammunition's mighty low. Lord, I go Fort Dayton for help. That's a jockey, Joe. I know every foot of the way. Anybody can make it. I can.
- [31:45]
Ben Mankiewicz
Joe Francis character gets captured during a battle scene and ends up splayed in a cart of hay with his arms tied to a wooden beam. Arrows of fire are shot into the cart, causing it to go up in flames. While the camera rolled on the scene, John watched as the fire crept closer and closer to his brother. Only when it started to burn the ties around Francis wrists did John Floyd finally yell cut and call for the fire extinguishers.
- [32:23]
John Ford
Merciful Father, forgive me for what I am about to.
- [32:30]
Ben Mankiewicz
John Ford was the brother with the power now. And he made sure Francis knew it. And as John's power grew, so did his influence, not just on filmmaking, but on American culture. After the break, John Ford makes his most controversial film to date.
- [32:52]
John Ford
I'll be everywhere. Wherever you can look. Wherever there's a fight so hungry people can eat, I'll be there. Amazon one Medical presents Painful thoughts I've been on hold to make a doctor's appointment for 23 minutes now. The automated voice has told me 47 times that my call is very important to them. Hmm. I'm starting to think that they don't.
- [33:24]
Ben Mankiewicz
Think my call is important at all.
- [33:27]
John Ford
With Amazon One Medical 24. 7 Virtual Care, you'll get help fast.
- [33:31]
Ben Mankiewicz
Without having to remain on the line.
- [33:32]
John Ford
To make an appointment. Amazon One Medical Healthcare just got less painful. This episode brought to you by MGM from executive producer Stephen King and an executive producer of Frog Comes the Institute, a chilling new original series from mgm. Kidnapped and trapped in a sinister facility.
- [33:52]
Ben Mankiewicz
Gifted teen Luke Ellis must join other.
- [33:54]
John Ford
Children to fight for their survival.
- [33:56]
Ben Mankiewicz
Starring Emmy Award winner Mary Louise Parker.
- [33:59]
John Ford
Ben Barnes and introducing Joe Freeman. The institute, premiering July 13 on MGM.
- [34:09]
Ben Mankiewicz
By the late 1930s, Ford had made nearly 100 films. 100. These projects often touched on important issues of the day. War, political independence, intolerance, poverty. Off screen, though, Ford had no interest in discussing any of those issues. Ask him about politics like this poor BBC interviewer did, and you'd get something like this in return.
- [34:39]
John Ford
That's politics. That has nothing to do with pictures. I'd rather. I would rather not discuss it. I won't answer your question.
- [34:47]
Ben Mankiewicz
Still, there were some clues as to how John Ford felt about the state of the world. He spoke at an anti Nazi rally in 1937. When a government official accused the anti Nazi League of being a communist organization. Ford said, if this be communism, count me in. Ford also helped create one of Hollywood's biggest unions, the Screen Directors Guild, now known as the Directors Guild of America, or dga. But perhaps the best way to understand Ford's off screen views is to look at what he was doing on screen. Here's John Wayne.
- [35:27]
John Ford
He was a private man and he. He never was so much for a political scene, but he was certainly articulate with that camera. He told his feelings about the world and the community and his friends and his pictures.
- [35:47]
Ben Mankiewicz
Ford's movies during this time, the late 1930s, were undeniably progressive. He did not shy away from contentious topics. It might sound strange now, but one of the most controversial films he's made was based on a book you likely read in high school English.
- [36:05]
John Ford
Sweeping across the country comes one of the great literary achievements of our time, the Grapes of wrath.
- [36:13]
Ben Mankiewicz
In 1939, Ford was on location shooting Drums along the Mohawk when he was approached by Darrell F. Zanuck, who ran production at 20th Century Fox. Zanuck told Ford he just bought the rights to the Grapes of Wrath. And he wanted Ford to direct the movie version. Fox paid $70,000 for the rights. About 1.5 million in today's dollars. I can't supply the demand. The John Steinbeck novel had just won the Pulitzer Prize. It was wildly popular.
- [36:47]
John Ford
You are have a copy of Grapes of Wrath? Sorry, we're all sold out.
- [36:51]
Ben Mankiewicz
The Grapes of Wrath is based on real events. During the Great Depression, a million farm workers were devastated by droughts and dust storms in the Midwest. They packed their belongings and headed west.
- [37:05]
John Ford
Deserting their farmsteads that had shriveled and powdered and blown away in the wind. These people take pilgrimage to the promised land of plenty, the lush valleys of California.
- [37:16]
Ben Mankiewicz
Though the story certainly resonated with millions of Americans no one wanted to see their own suffering.
- [37:23]
John Ford
On the big screen was a downbeat picture, no glamour in it. Story of poor people fighting for an existence at that time, that was not the trend. Sex at that time was tom and rare. Its ugly head. And musicals were involved.
- [37:42]
Ben Mankiewicz
The 1930s were largely dominated by movie musicals like 42nd street and Footlight Parade.
- [37:48]
John Ford
Out in Hollywood. The sensation of the moment is the picture called 42nd street into which Warner Brothers have put stars, girls, beauty and talent in lavish quantities.
- [37:59]
Ben Mankiewicz
They were an escape for audiences living through the devastation of the Depression. Ford wasn't put off by the grim story in the Grapes of Wrath. In fact, it drew him in. He sympathized with the plight of the main characters, the Joad family. He saw parallels with his own Irish heritage.
- [38:21]
John Ford
My family, you know, we lived in the legend of the famine.
- [38:24]
Ben Mankiewicz
We lived with the legend of the famine, Ford says.
- [38:27]
John Ford
My father, mother, they were too young then. But they remember the horrible situation of famine. Tough time.
- [38:36]
Ben Mankiewicz
So Ford told Daryl Zanuck, yes, he would direct the Grapes of Wrath. But as it turned out, adapting this downbeat story into a successful motion picture would be the least of his problems.
- [38:51]
John Ford
The Grapes of Wrath becomes the book of the nation. Everyone everywhere joins in the discussion of its vital problem.
- [38:59]
Ben Mankiewicz
In the book, John Steinbeck shined a spotlight on the struggles of working men and women. Opponents saw it as pro communist. Opponents also saw it as anti American. They claimed it would stoke class warfare. Believe it or not, libraries banned the book. The California Chamber of Commerce condemned it. When 20th Century Fox announced they were making it into a movie. Anti labor groups boycotted the studio. Amid these protests and boycotts, John Ford went to work. He started by choosing a leading actor. If he wanted audiences to look past the controversy he needed them to connect with the man at the center of the story Tom Joad. Thankfully, Ford knew just the guy for the job.
- [39:55]
John Ford
Tom Joad is played by Henry Fonda.
- [39:59]
Ben Mankiewicz
Henry Fonda exuded all American goodness. Born in Nebraska, Fonda had this soft Midwestern way of talking. The first time he worked with Ford, he played young Abraham Lincoln. In Henry Fonda, John Ford saw decency and honesty.
- [40:18]
John Ford
I knew Ford for three pictures. It was my third in a row.
- [40:22]
Ben Mankiewicz
This is Henry Fonda.
- [40:24]
John Ford
And, you know, it was. It became a love story. I mean, we. We loved each other just, I think, in the way that he loved Duke and. And Ward.
- [40:34]
Ben Mankiewicz
A lot of people assumed Hollywood would add glamour to this bleak story, make it more palatable. After all, the novel dealt with a murder. It questioned religion and it showed some of the worst poverty in American history. Many thought Ford would have to soften that up, but he refused. Ford stayed faithful to the darkness of Steinbeck's novel. He filmed it in black and white, almost in a documentary style.
- [41:04]
John Ford
Grapes of Wrath is shot like the Depression photographs of Dorothy Lange.
- [41:08]
Ben Mankiewicz
That's Ford biographer Scott Iman.
- [41:11]
John Ford
The actors aren't wearing makeup. There's no diffusion on the lens. A lot of harsh morning light. It's shot very photorealistic.
- [41:18]
Ben Mankiewicz
The way he directed actors was also understated. Ford had a specific approach to getting dramatic performances from his cast. You can see this in the climax of the Grapes of Wrath.
- [41:31]
John Ford
Now get out of here. Go down on the willows and wait. I ain't gonna run.
- [41:35]
Ben Mankiewicz
Tom Joad is a wanted man. He'd killed a crooked deputy and had to go on the lam. First, though, he has to tell his mother knowing this will be the last time they ever see each other. Ford decided to shoot this scene toward the end of production after the actors had bonded and spent weeks shooting one heartbreaking scene after another. Then, when it came time for the emotional climax Ford refused to let his actors rehearse.
- [42:09]
John Ford
And we were like racehorses chomping of the bit because he wouldn't let us do it. He deliberately never let us because it was, again, part of the Ford technique of not leaving your performance. You know, like the. Like the athlete leading his performance in the locker room. Don't. Don't dilute it. Don't spoil it. He wanted it fresh. He loved one take.
- [42:33]
Ben Mankiewicz
The day came to shoot the scene between Tom Joad and his mother, played by Jane Darwell. Ford told the crew to set up. His cinematographer was Greg Toland who went on to shoot Citizen Kane the next year. Here again is Henry Fonda.
- [42:51]
John Ford
When finally, technically, Greg Toland and the camera crew and the dolly men were already. Okay, here we go. How am I gonna know about you, Tommy?
- [43:01]
Ben Mankiewicz
Why?
- [43:02]
John Ford
They could kill you and I'd never know. They could hurt you.
- [43:06]
Ben Mankiewicz
How am I gonna know?
- [43:08]
John Ford
And for the first time out loud, Ma jode and I said those lines. I'll be everywhere. Wherever you can look. Wherever there's a fight so hungry people can eat, I'll be there. Wherever there's a cop beating up a guy, I'll be there. I'll be in the way guys yell when they're mad. And when the people are eating the stuff they raise and living in the houses they build I'll be there too. We both got carried away with emotion because we were so built up with it that both of us as actors knew that we mustn't let ourselves go because that would be very bad. So that the emotion was working for us and we had to hold it back, keep it in rain. Ford instinctively knew that this could happen. But it might not happen if we blew it too many times in rehearsals.
- [44:18]
Ben Mankiewicz
Fonda and Jane Darwell might have held back tears, but they were the only ones. Everyone on set was crying, even John Ford. The Grapes of Wrath is perhaps the most unglamorous film of the Hollywood studio era. Turns out, alongside the glitz, audiences wanted a little reality. When they finally got to see the movie in 1940, they loved it.
- [44:46]
John Ford
And now, at last, the Grapes of Wrath captures all the drama, suspense, action, tears and laughter of the story that stirred a nation.
- [44:57]
Ben Mankiewicz
Despite all the controversy surrounding the movie, the film became a massive hit. 20th Century Fox's highest grossing film of 1940. When the Oscar nominations came the Grapes of Wrath racked up seven including Best Picture, Best Actor and Best Director. Ford, by the way, also had a second film in the running the Long voyage home. With six nominations on February 27, 1941 Hollywood royalty made their way into the big Biltmore Hotel for the ceremony.
- [45:34]
John Ford
This is the night of thrills in Hollywood.
- [45:36]
Ben Mankiewicz
Bob Hope, Jimmy Stewart, Ginger Rogers, they all showed up. When it came time for the Best Director award presenter Frank Capra made a bizarre choice. He asked the nominated directors to come on stage. The other nominees, Alfred Hitchcock, William Wyler, George Cukor and Sam Wood, all walked up, shook hands and took a bow. Then Capra opened the envelope. The Oscar goes to John Ford. Which must have made it incredibly awkward for everyone else on that stage because John Ford was the only nominee not there. Where was he? Out on the open sea on his beloved Ariner with fellow nominee Henry Fonda. Who was up for Best Actor? When Ford got back to shore, he had only one thought about his Oscar win.
- [46:45]
John Ford
A great disappointment is that Henry Fonda gave a great performance. He was nominated for the Academy noir but didn't receive it. I received it, but the fact that Henry didn't get it took some of the elation, some of the joy away from me. They gave a great performance.
- [47:03]
Ben Mankiewicz
1941 wasn't the only time Ford dodged the Oscars. Ford hated all ceremonies, all premieres, all that Hollywood punk. He told Katharine Hepburn as much as.
- [47:17]
John Ford
Never been the premiere or never went to an Academy Award, you never win. No, I didn't care where my name was or anything else. He wouldn't have gone to an Oscar ceremony at gunpoint. You know, somebody else would pick up.
- [47:33]
Ben Mankiewicz
The award for him and give him the awards again. That's Scott Iman.
- [47:37]
John Ford
Now, did he put the awards in storage? No, he was proud of those Academy Awards, but that's a different thing from going there and, and, and showing people that you want that award, you know, of course he wanted the award he wanted to win, but he didn't want to be seen to want to win.
- [47:56]
Ben Mankiewicz
Skipping the Oscars even as he won more and more, that was so John Ford. Admitting he wanted awards would be way too vulnerable for a man who wanted to be seen as above it all.
- [48:11]
John Ford
Foreign.
- [48:15]
Ben Mankiewicz
Skipped the Academy Awards ceremony again in 1942, a year after the Grapes of Wrath. This time, though, he had a better excuse. His movie How Green Was My Valley won five Oscars that year, including Best Picture, beating Orson Welles's debut film, Citizen Kane, which was written by my grandfather, Herman Mankiewicz. Ford also won Best Director that year, his third, the last two coming back to back. No director had ever done that before. Darrell F. Zanuck accepted the Oscar for Ford.
- [48:52]
John Ford
I would like to say that, first of all, this is getting to be a habit of accepting wards that justly belong to Commander Ford.
- [49:03]
Ben Mankiewicz
That's right, Commander Ford.
- [49:06]
John Ford
20Th Century Fox is indeed proud of Commander Ford, who is tonight on a ship somewhere in the Far East.
- [49:21]
Ben Mankiewicz
While John Ford never admitted to caring about movies, he openly, frequently praised the military. Said serving in the military was the only thing he truly cared about. And now, finally, he was officially working for the Navy. Just a few months before that Oscar ceremony, John Ford's wife, Mary came to Washington, D.C. to visit him. He'd moved there as part of his naval Service. While in D.C. the Ford family was invited to the home of Rear Admiral Andrew Pickens for an early Sunday afternoon dinner. We have A rare recording of John's wife Mary talking about this dinner.
- [50:08]
John Ford
We were all sitting in this lovely old house. Admiral Pickens was an active duty and very much involved with security.
- [50:18]
Ben Mankiewicz
As they sat down to eat, the telephone rang. The maid left the room to answer it and quickly came back with the phone in her hand. She held it out to Admiral Pickens.
- [50:30]
John Ford
She said, it's for you, Animal. She always called the admiral animal. And he said, didn't you tell them I was dinner?
- [50:39]
Ben Mankiewicz
She said, yes, sir.
- [50:41]
John Ford
But they said that that didn't make any difference. It was very important. And he said, well, I like the nerve. And she said, that's the water part.
- [50:52]
Ben Mankiewicz
Admiral Pickens took the phone from the maid and began listening to urgent news coming from the other end of the line. The date December 7, 1941. The admiral began to nod vigorously.
- [51:10]
John Ford
Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And you have not me that there's been an attack by the jet Japanese on Pearl Harbor. Gentlemen, we are now at war. Everybody at that tape, their whole life changed.
- [51:29]
Ben Mankiewicz
Everybody at that table, their whole life changed.
- [51:32]
John Ford
Mary said, I ask that the Congress declare that a state of war has existed between the United States and the Japanese Empire.
- [51:57]
Ben Mankiewicz
Next time on the Plot Thickens. John Ford made his way directly to the front lines of World War II's biggest battles.
- [52:07]
John Ford
Casualties in this mammoth operation may reach a dreadful toll. The cameramen were coming ashore with the soldiers in the assault craft taking the same risks.
- [52:17]
Ben Mankiewicz
To get the perfect shot, Ford risked his life and disobeyed orders.
- [52:23]
John Ford
It was really bad. An utter, complete slaughterhouse, like a shrapnel wounds in my elbow and shoulder knocked unconscious.
- [52:33]
Ben Mankiewicz
But perhaps Ford's greatest accomplishment during the war vanished without a trace.
- [52:39]
John Ford
I have been looking and looking for this film and I have never found anything.
- [52:51]
Ben Mankiewicz
Angela Caron is our director of podcasts. Story editor is Karen Duffin. Jaco Friedman is our senior producer. Script writing by Yaakov Friedman, Maya Croth and James Sheridan, who also fact checked every episode for us. Audio editing and sound design by Brandon Arnold, James Kim and Mike Vulgaris. Mixing by Glenn Matullo. Research by Matt Goldberg. Production support from Liz Winter, Allison Fire, Matthew Ownby, Julie Bettone, Emma Morris, Susan B. Sak, Dorie Stegman and Phil Richards. Thanks to our legal team, Jon Renau and Kristin Hassell, and to the talents of TCM staffers Taryn Jacobs, Katie Daniels, David Byrne, Diana Bosch, Caroline Wigmore, Michelle Height, Stephanie Thames, and to our resident ford scholar, Scott McGee. Our executive producer is Charlie Tavish. Special thanks to Dan Ford for sharing his family archive with us and to the helpful team at Interview Indiana University's Lilly Library. Special thanks to Christina Jensen from the Degolier Library at Southern Methodist University. From novel, thanks to producer Philippa Goodrich, story editor Veronica Simmons, researcher Valeria Rocca, assistant producer Nadia Mehdi, production managers Cherie Houston and Charlotte Wolf, executive producer Max o', Brien, and creative director Willard Foxton. Thomas Avery of Tune Welders composed our theme music. I'm your host, Ben Mankiewicz. Thanks for listening. See you next time.