The Legend

Summary

The Legend: Unraveling the Complex Legacy of John Ford

Podcast: The Plot Thickens
Host: Ben Mankiewicz
Episode: The Legend
Release Date: July 18, 2024

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1. Introduction: The Dynamic Duo – John Ford and Katharine Hepburn

The episode opens with a glimpse into the intricate relationship between legendary director John Ford and iconic actress Katharine Hepburn. Their collaboration on the 1936 film Mary of Scotland underscores a partnership marked by both artistic synergy and political disagreements.

Ben Mankiewicz [00:42]: "Katharine Hepburn and John Ford were close, but they argued about all kinds of things, including politics."

Despite their differences, both Ford and Hepburn shared a steadfast approach to their crafts. Hepburn, boasting four Academy Awards for Best Actress—the most by any actor—and Ford, holding four Best Director Oscars, each never accepted their awards in person, highlighting their mutual understanding and independence.

John Ford [02:28]: "But he has the artistic point of view of a real old sort of Renaissance craftsman. You know, he just could do it."

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2. The Making of Mr. Roberts: Friendship Turns Sour

Transitioning to the 1948 film Mr. Roberts, the podcast delves into the deep-seated friendship between John Ford and Henry Fonda, which ultimately unraveled amidst creative tensions.

Ben Mankiewicz [05:26]: "Mr. Roberts is a comedy about a lieutenant in the U.S. navy during World War II."

Originally a successful Broadway play, Mr. Roberts was adapted into a film with Ford at the helm and Fonda reprising his role. Their camaraderie, rooted in shared naval experiences, was strong until on-set disagreements escalated.

John Ford [07:00]: "Ford was far more similar to Fonda than really anybody else."

The friction reached a boiling point when Ford, frustrated with Fonda's deviations from the script, physically assaulted him during a heated confrontation.

John Ford [09:59]: "He'd sucker punched him."

This incident not only strained their personal relationship but also cast a shadow over the production, leading to Ford's eventual replacement by other directors and Fonda's departure from the project.

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3. The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance: Challenging American Myths

In The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, Ford juxtaposed the mythologizing of the American West with a more cynical view of heroism and legend-making. The film features Jimmy Stewart and John Wayne in a narrative that questions the nature of truth and reputation.

John Ford [17:29]: "He's the hero. He's the secret hero of the entire movie. He was the one that actually shot Liberty Valance."

The climax reveals that it was Wayne’s character, not Stewart’s, who actually killed the antagonist Liberty Valance, emphasizing the fabrication of legends to construct societal narratives.

Ben Mankiewicz [18:41]: "This is the west, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."

The film serves as Ford's critique of the glorification of violence and the construction of heroic myths, reflecting his evolving perspective on American history and identity.

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4. Cheyenne Autumn: A Bold Departure and Personal Struggles

Cheyenne Autumn marked Ford's final Western, aiming to present a more authentic portrayal of Native American struggles. The film depicted the 1878 exodus of the Cheyenne people from Oklahoma to reclaim their ancestral lands.

Ben Mankiewicz [20:55]: "Cheyenne Autumn was the first time Ford tried to include an authentic Native perspective."

Despite its ambition, the production was marred by personal challenges. Ford's own health was declining, and the assassination of President Kennedy during filming cast a pall over the set, affecting both the cast and crew emotionally.

John Ford [22:32]: "My son delivering papers for his younger brother. He was sick. He didn't want to lose his route, you know."

The film attempted to humanize Native Americans, a significant shift from Ford's earlier, more stereotypical representations. However, Cheyenne Autumn failed to achieve commercial success, reflecting both the changing cinematic landscape and Ford's personal turmoil.

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5. Decline and Demise: Ford's Struggles with Alcoholism and Health

As the 1960s progressed, John Ford's ability to keep pace with the demands of filmmaking waned. His growing dependence on alcohol became increasingly problematic, detracting from his professional reputation and personal relationships.

John Ford [26:13]: "Cheyenne Autumn was, you know, sort of his apology piece to Native Americans."

Attempts to revive his career, such as the ill-fated project Seven Women, only exacerbated his issues. The film, intended to showcase strong female characters, was both a commercial and critical failure, further diminishing Ford's standing in Hollywood.

Ben Mankiewicz [36:57]: "They didn't speak so much as bicker."

Ford's alcoholism led to missed opportunities and the inability to complete projects, culminating in his final attempt to direct Young Cassidy. However, his condition prevented him from continuing, marking the end of a prolific 54-year career.

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6. Legacy and Reflections: Understanding the Enigma of John Ford

In the twilight of his life, John Ford received the American Film Institute's Life Achievement Award, an event marred by personal solitude despite the presence of Hollywood's elite.

Ben Mankiewicz [48:09]: "John Ford and Richard Nixon made their grand entrance together."

Despite his notorious temper and complex personality, Ford left an indelible mark on cinema. His funeral was attended by numerous film legends, signaling the profound impact he had on colleagues and the industry alike.

Dan Ford [30:28]: "Why did he want it to stop thinking? Why would he want that?"

Reflecting on Ford’s legacy, the podcast acknowledges his monumental contributions to filmmaking while also recognizing his personal battles and the intricate layers that defined him.

Ben Mankiewicz [57:11]: "His sensitivity to life and to people is so enormous that he just gets that message very, very fast."

John Ford passed away on August 31, 1973, leaving behind a legacy of some of the most influential and enduring films in American cinema history.

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Conclusion: A Multifaceted Titan of Hollywood

The Legend paints a comprehensive portrait of John Ford—a filmmaker of unparalleled talent and complexity. Through triumphs and tribulations, Ford's dedication to his craft and his profound impact on the film industry remain unquestioned. His ability to navigate the evolving landscape of Hollywood, coupled with his personal struggles, offers a nuanced understanding of a man who was as formidable in his personal life as he was legendary on screen.

Ben Mankiewicz [58:37]: "Trying to understand Ford has been frustrating and elusive. But I take solace in knowing that despite his demons and a lifetime of mistakes, John Ford became the very thing he wanted to be."

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This episode of The Plot Thickens provides an in-depth exploration of John Ford's life, unraveling the layers of his professional achievements and personal challenges, offering listeners a rich and engaging narrative of one of cinema's greatest directors.

Transcript

[John Ford]

The McDonald's Snack Wrap is back. You brought it back. Ranch snack wrap. Spicy snack wrap. You broke the Internet for a snack? Snack wrap is back. Is there any difference, directing men and women? No. Why did you direct so many men and so few women? I don't know. Just subject matter. Just. Just happened. Yeah. There's always been women in my picture. I thought you're going to say there's always been women in your life, but not in your pictures. But you can't say that.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Katharine Hepburn and John Ford were close, but they argued about all kinds of things, including politics.

[John Ford]

I would not think that I could tell you, even after all these years what his political philosophy is.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ford, meanwhile, thought his politics made perfect sense.

[John Ford]

I'm a registered Democrat, family influence. I've never voted. Until the last election, I voted for Barry Goldwater. Now, that I can't understand. Well, he's a close personal friend. Oh, I voted for Dick Nixon. But he's a close personal friend. Well, then this is insane. You see, this shows that you have no political philosophy. He has no real interest.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ford and Hepburn made only one movie together back in 1936, Mary of Scotland. If they did have an affair, as the rumors insist, it was around that time. They might seem like an unlikely pair of. But they were actually pretty similar. Like Ford, Hepburn was brash and refused to take any shit from anyone. Hepburn won more Academy Awards for Best Actress four than anyone else. Ford holds the same record for Best Director, also four. And just like John Ford, Katharine Hepburn never once showed up to accept her Oscar. In person, they understood each other. Ford almost never let other people define him. But he agreed with Hepburn's take on his approach to movie making.

[John Ford]

But he has the artistic point of view of a real old sort of Renaissance craftsman. You know, he just could do it. He had a real gift for the business. It was not a sort of mechanized thing. No. Yes. I think I was pretty good. Yeah, I think so.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Humbly, in case you missed that, Ford added that he humbly agreed with Hepburn.

[John Ford]

I think Jack was, although he never would admit it, was an enormously ambitious man. And he had a tremendous amount of energy so that he wasn't about to sit back and accomplish nothing.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Even as he got older and had less energy, John Ford found it hard to just sit back and reminisce about. Way back when the studios started looking to younger directors. And though the industry wanted to celebrate Ford, they didn't want to hire him. Ford didn't handle this shift well. He still had the ambition of a younger man. But his body betrayed him. He grew tired and he grew angry. More and more often, when looking for comfort, he'd turn to alcohol. But when he was on set with his eye patch, his pipe, and his growing frailty, Ford still broke new ground. His choices were bold, challenging both the Hollywood establishment and and his own difficult legacy. John Ford didn't need a doctor to tell him he didn't have much time left. But he was determined as ever, to show the world what he could do when he stepped behind a camera. I'm your host, Ben Mankiewicz. You're listening to season five of the Plot Thickens, a podcast from Turner Classic Movies. Each season we bring you an in depth story about the movies and the people who make them. This season we partnered with Novel for decoding John Ford, the most influential filmmaker of the last 100 years. This is episode seven, the Legend. As you can imagine, as a host on TCM for more than 20 years, I watch a lot of movies, but I can no longer watch one specific John Ford film without thinking about what a disaster it was behind the scenes, how it became one of the biggest debacles of ford's life.

[John Ford]

Will Mr. Roberts report topside immediately? Mr. Roberts, topside.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Mr. Roberts is a comedy about a lieutenant in the U.S. navy during World War II. It started out as a best selling book and became a Broadway play with one of Ford's favorite actors as the lead, Henry Fonda.

[John Ford]

Look, Doc, the war's way out there and I'm here. Well, I don't want to be here. I want to be out there. I'm sick and tired of being a lousy spectator.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

In 1948, Henry Fonda left Hollywood and headed east, taking up residence at the Alvin Theater on Broadway. He played Mr. Roberts for eight shows a week for three years. John Ford was a fan of the play. Here's Henry Fonda.

[John Ford]

And when I did Roberts, he came back three or four times during the three years that I was in the play in New York. He didn't always see it from the front. He used to come backstage and hang around backstage.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The play was a smash hit. So Warner Brothers bought the rights to make it into a film. And when the studio asked Fonda who.

[John Ford]

Should direct and I said, there's only one man. It's just John Ford. He's a Navy man, he's a location man, he's a man's director. For every reason you can think of, he's the only one.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ford then returned the favor and cast his leading man.

[John Ford]

It's Henry Fonda as Mr. Roberts.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The two had been close for decades.

[John Ford]

Ford was far more similar to Fonda than really anybody else.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Here's my colleague at TCM, Scott McGee.

[John Ford]

They were highly intelligent men who were very introverted and had a lot of demons.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Fonda used to regularly pal around with Ford on his ship, the Aaroner. Mr. Roberts was their seventh collaboration. They'd both served in the Navy and now they were making a movie about the Navy set in the South Pacific. Ford even used his military connections to film on Midway island on a real Navy cargo ship. It was two old friends doing what they loved. In a tropical paradise, no less. It should have been a great experience.

[John Ford]

What I hadn't counted on when I'm asked who should direct this picture was that Pappy was also an egomaniac. An Irish egomaniac.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Almost as soon as cameras started rolling on Mr. Roberts the star and the director started butting heads. Henry Fonda had played Mr. Roberts for three straight years. He won a Tony for the role. He knew every beat, every rhythm of the play. But when it came to making the movie, John Ford thought he knew better.

[John Ford]

He was changing it because he had to do it a different way.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Fonda usually deferred to Ford, but he was too attached to this role to stay silent. Here's film historian Scott Iman.

[John Ford]

Fonda challenged his authority, which had never happened before. It just didn't happen. Actors didn't challenge him.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Fonda thought Ford was directing the scenes too fast.

[John Ford]

I knew what the timing was and I knew that the audiences would laugh so that you had to wait between lines. You had to wait till the laugh was gone before you could say it. Also, if you didn't put one line on top of another, it was a funnier scene because they're relishing broken right into the sanctity of a man's own locker. And Ford had to reverse that and played it with one line coming right on the other like that. There's just one thing left for you, mister. A general court martial. That suits me fine. Court martial me. You've got it. I'm asking for it. If I can't get transferred, I'll get court martialed off. I'm that up. Fonda was there, and he makes his displeasure known. And Ford was not used to an actor standing there grumbling about what Ford was doing.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

A few days into filming, Henry Fonda received a message. John Ford wanted to see him.

[John Ford]

You and I went at the Pappy strong and he's sitting in a worker chair and Pappy says, what's the matter? He says, I don't know. Something's eaten yet. So then I started the whole story that I had said he was the best man in the business. There wasn't anybody else. But then I got to the criticism and I got about as far but Pappy, you know. And I don't know how many words I got out, but this was going to be a criticism. He rose out of his chair and he'd sucker punched him. Essentially. He'd gone over the desk and sucker pucked Fonda as Fonda was explaining what was wrong with what Ford was doing. And Ford blew. He just lost it.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ford walloped Fonda so hard he knocked him to the ground.

[John Ford]

I don't know where he hit me. And it didn't hurt, but it knocked me over. Back against the chair and knocked over a water pitcher or something. And Ford is windmilling, throwing punches wildly at Fonda until they pulled him off. And it was so embarrassing that I just walked out of the room. And a half hour later, Pappy came into my room to apologize. Not a big deal. Just said, I'm sorry, something like that. And from then on, it was sort of embarrassing. It was never the relationship that it had been.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Production continued the next day, but word had spread. The South Pacific set grew ice cold.

[John Ford]

Ford felt his authority had been contravened. And Fonda felt, well, for one thing, my director assaulted me, you know. And Ford basically would sit there and direct Mr. Roberts and turn to Fonda and said, is that okay for you? Is that okay for you? In a kind of sarcastic way, you know. The communication simply ceased. There was no way to repair what had happened.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ford had argued with his cast and crew before, but he'd never punched his leading man. Then he did something else shocking. John Ford broke his one cardinal rule. He started drinking during production.

[John Ford]

He almost knew, instinctively blowing it somehow because he had never, in all of my experience with him and anybody else that I know had ever drunk during shooting. But he did then. He started then, and that was as bad as it can be. And he finally had to be dried out in a hospital.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

When Ford finished shooting on location he took the production back to Hollywood to film scenes on the Warner Brothers lot. But Ford wasn't up to the task physically. He got sick. He was in pain and vomiting. He was rushed to the hospital and scheduled for gallbladder surgery. He couldn't continue on. Mr. Roberts.

[John Ford]

Now, there are those who say his gallbladder didn't blow up that he took himself off the picture or Jack Warner fired him. Because Fonda wanted him fired. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. His gallbladder did blow up. I know it blew up because Betsy Palmer, who was on the picture, acting in the picture, said she went to see Ford in the hospital and he showed her his scar from the surgery to take out his gallbladder.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The studio could have paused production to allow him to recover. That didn't happen. Between punching Henry Fonda and drinking on the set, it seemed people were finally starting to tire of Ford's behavior. Two other directors, Mervyn Leroy and Joshua Logan, came in to finish Mr. Roberts. Ford did manage to repair his professional reputation the next year. In fact, he made the Searchers. But the damage to one of his closest friendships was done.

[John Ford]

The relationship was gone after that. And I've been sad about it the rest of my life and the rest of his life. And it was an unfortunate experience and an unfortunate end to a love story, really, for me.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

John Ford and Henry Fonda barely spoke after this. And they never worked together again. Six years after Mr. Roberts, in 1961, Ford made a western with a hell of a title. The man who Shot Liberty Valance.

[John Ford]

Out of the flame and fury of the frontier, the Old west lives again as only John Ford can recreate it.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But at 67 years old, Ford started to view the Western differently. The genre was at its peak during the 50s and into the early 60s. But the 1960s were also a decade of seismic change.

[John Ford]

Many artists feel gradually alienated from the environment that they once thrived in. Because countries change, politics change, optimism can be curdled. And I think some of those things happened with Ford. The most important thing for John Ford was a sense of control. And Ford got a little darker as he got older.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The man who Shot Liberty Valance didn't look like Ford's other Westerns. He shot it in black and white, and he didn't go on location.

[John Ford]

There's no Monument Valley to be found in this. It was shot in the back lot of Paramount. But it could have been shot in the backlot of any 1960s movie studio because they all had Western streets. It's a generic setting as opposed to Monument Valley, which is so specific and carries such lavish visual splendor.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The man who Shot Liberty Valance is an indoors movie. Ford set the main action in newsrooms and saloons and schools, houses. Ford did cast familiar faces from his stock company. Andy Devine, Vera Miles, Woody Strode.

[John Ford]

What'd you say?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And there are two leading men here. Jimmy Stewart.

[John Ford]

I don't want to kill him. I want to put him in jail.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And John Wayne.

[John Ford]

Well, take some advice, pilgrim. You better start packing a handgun.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Stuart plays a young attorney dedicated to law and order. Wayne is the opposite. A man of action and retribution. A gunslinger.

[John Ford]

I know those law books mean a lot to you, but not out here. Out here, a man settles his own problems.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ford brought in a newcomer to his company to play the title role. A tough, long faced actor named Lee Marvin. He became the bandit named Liberty Valance.

[John Ford]

Throw down our cash box. What kind of man are you? This kind.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Liberty Valance is a sadist. He doesn't just rob and murder people. He beats them with a steel plated whip.

[John Ford]

Well, I'll teach you law. Western law.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Toward the end of the film, Jimmy Stewart's character faces off with Liberty Valance in a shootout.

[John Ford]

This time right between the eyes.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Jimmy Stewart kills the villain. At least it appears he does. Stewart then becomes famous as the man who shot Liberty Valance. Here's TCM Scott McGee again.

[John Ford]

That's what helped him become a senator. That's what helped him become an elder statesman. He's the one that enjoys indeed the rest of his life living that lie.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The lie is that it wasn't actually Jimmy Stewart who pulled the trigger. Lurking out of sight was John Wayne. He fired the bullet that killed Liberty Valance.

[John Ford]

He's the hero. He's the secret hero of the entire movie. He was the one that actually shot Liberty Valance. But he's forgotten to history.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

When the press learns the truth, when they find out that Jimmy Stewart's career is based on a myth, they choose not to reveal it. Instead, they bury the story. When asked why a newspaper editor delivers the most famous line in any John Ford picture.

[John Ford]

This is the west, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend. When you consider the line, the famous last line of the man who shot Liberty Valance. We really don't want to know the ugly truth of violence in America. We don't want to know how we shaped our destiny, how we form this country. We really don't want to know those stories because they're too ugly. We would rather cling to the myth.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Young John Ford said so much about America in his movies ideas about the honor and decency of the men who conquered the West. He enjoyed being a myth maker, but as he aged, Ford saw things more clearly. Myths about the west and about America no longer appealed to him. In the man who Shot Liberty Valance, Ford showed us that myths are just a fancier word for lies.

[John Ford]

It's one of his saddest movies ever. And Ford was not by nature a morose filmmaker. Mostly his films end on a note of hope. But Liberty Valance ends on a note of resignation and a sort of acknowledgement that this is the way the world is and it's not necessarily the way the world should be, but it is the way the world is.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

When John Ford made his next Western, he tore down the biggest myth of them all.

[John Ford]

John Ford, the only director ever to have been honored with six Academy Awards brings to the screen Marie Sando's powerful historical narrative, Cheyenne Autumn.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Cheyenne Autumn marked John Ford's final western. He wanted it to be an epic, his biggest production yet. It was. The cast and crew numbered 865 people and he went back to his favorite place, Monument Valley.

[John Ford]

Cheyenne Autumn. Filmed in Technicolor with giant Super Panavision 70 cameras and a supporting cast of 4000s.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The story was a Hollywood version of real events. In 1878, displaced Cheyenne Indians left their reservation in Oklahoma and walked hundreds of miles north to reclaim their original land near Wyoming. In the past, Ford's movies had been occasionally sympathetic to Native Americans. But most of his portrayals were shallow stereotypes or worse, bloodthirsty savages. Cheyenne Autumn was different. It was the first time Ford tried to include an authentic Native perspective.

[John Ford]

The white man's words are lies.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

When he cast the picture, the main Cheyenne chief was played by a Mexican actor, Ricardo Montalban.

[John Ford]

I did a picture with Mr. John Ford. You call Cheyenne Autumn. And I played what? Indians? Of course. That's a Latin you play in Indians, you know, these are my wives. I pray the young one will give me sons mantle.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Bon had never worked with John Ford before, but he'd heard talk about what the old man was like.

[John Ford]

Mr. Ford was a very sentimental man. Very good Irishman. Very, very sentimental. He could be brutal if you let him. And I never let him. And we became very good friends.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

One day out in Monument Valley, Mathal Bond got a long distance phone call. His son back in Los Angeles was in the hospital.

[John Ford]

My son delivering papers for his younger brother. He was sick. He didn't want to lose his route, you know. He was hit by a gun, broke his leg.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

When John Ford heard the news, he immediately stopped production.

[John Ford]

And he arranged for me to go and visit my son. It was delaying, so he had to change the schedule on the day. And I went and I spent the day with my son. And then I came home and I. I never forget about Mr. Ford, his kindness.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ford paused production one other time during the filming of the Movie Here is.

[John Ford]

A bulletin from CBS news on Friday.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Nov. 22, 1963, from Dallas, Texas.

[John Ford]

The flash apparently official. President Kennedy died at 1:00pm Central Standard Time. Vice President Lyndon Johnson has left the hospital in Dallas, but we do not know to where he.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ford was a proud supporter of John F. Kennedy long before he became President, and not merely because Kennedy was Irish American.

[John Ford]

Joe Kennedy, the father of our beloved Jack Kennedy, was a good friend of mine.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ford remembers the Navajos on set who were playing Cheyennes were particularly shaken by the news.

[John Ford]

They became very gloomy. They were sad. I stopped work for the day.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The country fell into mourning. But after the weekend, John Ford and his crew went back to work. Still, a sense of despair hung in the air, even in beautiful Monument Valley. Cheyenne Autumn was a major departure from Ford's previous Westerns. The film didn't glorify the idea of America conquering the West. It showed the reality of it.

[John Ford]

We are asked to remember much. The white man remembers nothing. Cheyenne Autumn is a movie about America.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Through the lens of the way that it's treating its most hated people, its.

[John Ford]

Most hated denizens, and its most chastised and harassed people. And you have to hand it to him that that is exactly the way.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That you tell the story of America. This is film critic Scout defoia.

[John Ford]

I think he was aware that it was a subversion.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I think he was aware that it.

[John Ford]

Was not the kind of thing that.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

People were used to seeing. You know, he gave interviews where he said, I've killed more Indians than Custer.

[John Ford]

I think is the quote.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Maybe Ford had a change of heart, or maybe he simply grew tired of printing the legend. There's another way to read the change. Perhaps Ford recognized that in 1963 his earlier ideas would no longer find an audience. He was seeing the way that the.

[John Ford]

Tides were turning there, and he understood that you can't keep making those kinds of Westerns anymore. Even Ford started to realize that maybe the treatment of indigenous people in film and particularly his contribution to it, wasn't probably the best.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Adam Perrone is the director of the Sundance Institute's Indigenous Program.

[John Ford]

And so Cheyenne Autumn, it's, you know, sort of his apology piece to Native Americans. You know, him trying to do something that showed that he was willing to kind of listen or to change to some extent.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Cheyenne Autumn made a bold statement. The Indians were no longer the villains. They were the victims of the picture. John Ford was synonymous with the Western. But at the end of his career, he redefined the genre once again. He took a hard look at his previous movies and decided it was time to start telling the truth. Coming up, Ford's drinking spirals out of control.

[John Ford]

Suddenly he's off the picture.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He was hitting the Guinness until finally he admits he has a problem.

[John Ford]

He said, look kid, I'm an alcoholic. Your mother's an alcoholic. Don't throw your life away.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

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[John Ford]

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[Ben Mankiewicz]

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[John Ford]

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[Ben Mankiewicz]

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[John Ford]

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[Ben Mankiewicz]

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[John Ford]

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[Ben Mankiewicz]

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[John Ford]

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[Ben Mankiewicz]

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[John Ford]

Unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

If we made $15 bills.

[John Ford]

But it turns out that's very illegal.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

So there goes my big idea for the commercial.

[John Ford]

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[Ben Mankiewicz]

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[John Ford]

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[Ben Mankiewicz]

Cheyenne Autumn was not a hit. It made over $3 million at the box office, but its production budget swelled to better than six and a half million. Warner Brothers lost money in Hollywood. No matter how many hits you've directed, you're often just one flop away from irrelevance. John Ford's problems, though, went even deeper. For the first time in his career, he couldn't keep up with the pace of making a movie.

[John Ford]

Cheyenne Autumn. His energy simply ran out. He just, he wanted to basically stay as close to the hotel as possible.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Scott Iman again.

[John Ford]

He just didn't have the stamina anymore. He wasn't gonna be able to take a four week location on Monument Valley. Those days were gone. And also no one was gonna hire him to direct a big action picture anymore because that was past him at that point.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

This must have been an incredibly painful realization for Ford. Though he always downplayed moviemaking, it was his life's work. He did manage to land a job directing a film called Young Cassidy, a biopic about a famous Irish playwright. The film was set to be Shot in Ireland. So Ford took a trip there in May of 1964 to do some location scouting. But by the time his flight landed in Dublin, Ford was so drunk he needed to be rolled off the plane in a wheelchair.

[John Ford]

And after a week or 10 days, suddenly he's off the picture. His health isn't good. Well, he was drinking Guinness. At least he was hitting the Guinness.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It wasn't just Guinness. Producers found two grocery bags full of Scotch in Ford's hotel room.

[John Ford]

He would go on a bench and he would, you know, drink until he got it out of his system.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

This is Dan Ford, John Ford's grandson. He's devoted much of his life to chronicling his grandfather's legacy, good and bad, including the drinking.

[John Ford]

And I've asked people why he did that, and they would all say pretty much the same thing. And they'd said to shut off his mind. So it stopped thinking.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Why did he want it to stop thinking? Why would he want that?

[John Ford]

I don't know. You know, maybe just the pressures. The pressures. Constant decision making and making. A set. No, that goes over there. That's the wrong wardrobe. No, come in this door. You need to do this way. Just constant, constant, constant. And I think it exhausted John Ford.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And drinking, and drinking.

[John Ford]

Shut it off.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ford's drinking increased as he got older. He seemed to understand he had a problem and that he wasn't alone. In 1963, Harry Carey Jr. Who everyone called Dobie, was drinking at a saloon across from Universal Pictures when his wife called the bar.

[John Ford]

And Marilyn called the bar that I was sitting in, drinking. And she said, you're supposed to be at John Ford's house a half an hour ago. And they want you over there right away. What'll I tell him? And I said, tell him I'm drunk. So the next morning when I came to, I was terrified, man, you know, terrified and full of guilt and the whole bloody mess.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The Fords and the Carries were extremely close. John Ford got his start in silent pictures alongside Harry Carey senior. Ford cast Doby Carry and his mother Olive in many of his films. Still, Dobie didn't know what to expect from Ford's call.

[John Ford]

And I said, hello, Uncle Jack. And he said, hello, old dog. He said, look, kid, I'm an alcoholic. Your Aunt Mary's an alcoholic. Barbara is an alcoholic. Pat's an alcoholic. He said, your mother's an alcoholic. And he says, and Harry couldn't drink. So he said, why don't you go back to those AAAs? And he said, like a good kid.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ford of course meant aa, Alcoholics Anonymous.

[John Ford]

And he said, don't throw your life away, you know, nice as he could be. And I didn't had a drink since.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

John Ford didn't open up to many people. But he saw something in Doby Carry, something he recognized in himself, something he knew was a problem. Ford could never get clean and sober. And that weakness weighed on him. He clearly agonized over it. He wanted a better life for Dobie, even if he couldn't have it himself. Dobie wasn't the only person John Ford tried to help. He joined Alcoholics Anonymous and campaigned for others to join too, though he sometimes forgot the Anonymous part, like on the set of his next movie with an actress named Betty Field.

[John Ford]

He loved Betty Field and she's a hell of an actress. And Betty says that they're on the set and all of them are all sitting around. I don't know, they're talking about drinking. He said, well, Betty hears an aa, he says she's an alcoholic. And he says, I'm an aa. So he says, everybody here that raised their hand, that's an aa. And he raised his hand. And Betty said she didn't know what to do. She raised her hand and about four or five guys up in the things, you know, raised, you know, the hands that they were in aa, there was about three or four of them there. Betty said, God, she was so embarrassed, you know.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Even though he attended meetings, John Ford was still drinking. Now, even on set, his alcoholism had become a major liability. But producers were still willing to gamble on Ford if the price was right. Ford managed to convince MGM to put up money for a smaller movie set in China in the 1930s. Ford had made low budget films before. What made this one different is that it was about women. Seven of them.

[John Ford]

John Ford, who has won fame and Academy Awards with his he man exploits, now storms the screen with the dramatic adventures of seven Women.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Most of the actors in Seven Women hadn't worked with Ford before, but he did cast some members of his stock company. Anna Lee signed on for her eighth movie with Ford. Woody Strode was back for his fourth. This time, Strode, who was black, played a Mongolian raider in Seven Women.

[John Ford]

I'm going to sit with a bunch of Chinese kids. I'm a little embarrassed because I got the best role. Chinese kiss, said Woody. Chinese the way to this great.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Today this would undoubtedly be a problem. But at the time, Woody Strode believed John Ford was helping him.

[John Ford]

John Ford said, willie, I can't make a start of you, but I'm going to make You a character actor? That was a trend of the times then. There was no black stars. But he said, I'll make you a character actor and you will make money.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

7Women is the story of Christian missionaries whose pious lives get a dose of reality when a doctor arrives on the scene.

[John Ford]

Are you the doctor? You're a woman, unless a lot of men have been kidding me.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The doctor is played by Ann Bancroft. This came one year before her most famous role as the seductive Mrs. Robinson in the Graduate.

[John Ford]

Would you like me to seduce you?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

What?

[John Ford]

Is that what you're trying to tell me?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

In Seven Women, Bancroft is tough, protective, and when she walks, she's got a little John Wayne in her. Bancroft seemed to be imitating Duke's signature strut.

[John Ford]

What you all need is a good stiff drink.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

John Ford originally wanted seven women to star an old friend of his, Katharine Hepburn.

[John Ford]

What lousy part did you ask me to play?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The lead.

[John Ford]

Oh, God. Oh, I'm killing you dead. It was a rotten part.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Hepburn and Ford spoke about the movie in 1973.

[John Ford]

You never went.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Truth is, they didn't speak so much as bicker.

[John Ford]

It was a mean old thing. No, that isn't true. Kate Cow, I want you to. Who played the lead then? Ann Bancroft. No, it wasn't that part that you wanted me to play.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Hepburn had the better memory here. Ford did not offer her Ann Bancroft's role. He wanted Hepburn to play the self righteous head of the mission. She didn't want that part, so she turned him down. Seven Women finished production without incident. When it opened in theaters, a few influential writers thought it was magnificent, though most critics savaged it. They complained the film looked cheap, having been shot on indoor sets, and that women's pictures were passe and old fashioned. Audiences stayed away. Seven Women bombed at the box office. It is the last feature film John Ford ever directed and the entire time he was making it, Ford was harboring a secret.

[John Ford]

I don't think anybody ever knew that he was ill at all.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That's when we returned.

[John Ford]

Amazon One Medical presents Painful Thoughts I've been on hold to make a doctor's appointment for 23 minutes now. The automated voice has told me 47 times that my call is very important to them. I'm starting to think that they don't think my call is important at all. With Amazon One Medical 24. 7 Virtual Care, you'll get help fast without having to remain on the line to make an appointment. Amazon One Medical Healthcare just got less painful. This episode brought to you by MGM from executive producer Stephen King and an executive producer of Frog Comes the Institute, a chilling new original series from mgm.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Kidnapped and trapped in a sinister facility, gifted teen Luke Ellis must join other.

[John Ford]

Children to fight for their survival. Starring Emmy Award winner Mary Louise Parker, Ben Barnes and introducing Joe Freeman. The institute, premiering July 13 on MTN.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Now.

[John Ford]

7Women was interesting because everybody said that John Ford doesn't really like working with women. He's a man character.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

This is Annalee. She worked with Ford several times, including on Seven Women.

[John Ford]

Here he had seven women, all different. And I think he had more fun on that picture than he had anything else. He was marvelous. He was very courteous and polite and didn't swear too much.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ford was on his best behavior, neither grouchy nor irritable.

[John Ford]

I don't think anybody ever knew that he was ill at all. He obviously had to have started being ill at that time.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

John Ford had three addictions. Smoking, drinking and working. He was always so busy making movies or recovering from making movies that he rarely saw a doctor. But in 1971, his stomach started to hurt. Tests revealed he had severe heart disease as well as cold. Colorectal cancer. At his age in his health, it was inoperable. At the same time, Ford's work dried up. Studios stopped funding his projects. He was sick, he was dying. And he was no longer able to make movies. And that's exactly when movies started to be made about him.

[John Ford]

Directed by John Ford. These words have appeared on over 135 movies. Among them some of the most popular and memorable ever made.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Peter Bogdanovich made a memorable documentary about Ford. Film students began studying Ford's movies. Some even tried to meet Ford. Steven Spielberg, then just a teenager, briefly spoke to Ford in his office. A scene Spielberg included in his 2022 movie, the Fablements.

[John Ford]

They tell me you want to be a picture maker. Yes, sir, I do. Why this business? It'll rip you apart.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

If you've seen the Fablemans, then you know that Ford gave Steven Spielberg some valuable filmmaking advice. Spielberg told the story in 2011. He said, when you're able to distinguish.

[John Ford]

The art of the horizon at the bottom of a frame or at the.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Top of the frame, but not going right through the center of the frame. When you're able to appreciate why it's.

[John Ford]

At the top and why it's at.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The bottom, you might make a pretty good picture maker. Now get the out of here. Another Ford visitor was a young reporter named Joseph McBride. Years later, McBride wrote perhaps the definitive biography of John ford. But in 1970, he was just a kid with a press pass and a tape recorder.

[John Ford]

I'm 22. Huh? 22. 22. And you're going to write a book. When I arrived in Ford's office, he was very testy, as he always was. He was kind of an impossible guy to interview.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I spoke with Joe McBride last year.

[John Ford]

He would often pretend not to remember films that he had made. Or he'd give me monosyllabic answers or kind of curt non answers. But sometimes he'd come out with a very thoughtful commentary and you know, witty or insightful, often brief comments on filmmaking. Could I ask you about seven women? A little bit. Go ahead. Were you surprised when it didn't do well? It was over their heads. I didn't give a goddamn whether they liked it or not. I liked the story and that's how I get paid for it. And I thought it was a swell story and a good script. So I did it. Ford didn't give very many interviews. He would get huffy. But I came at a terrible time. It turned out to be the last day of his 54 year career in films. In the course of the interview he kept asking his secretary very nervously, have you heard from the gentleman from Italy yet? Has the man from Italy called Rome? I got that letter from that Italian gentleman or that gentleman in Italy. Haven't you? Today's an awfully busy day for you. I've got to call up Rome. He was expecting a phone call and she kept saying, no, Mr. Ford, he hasn't called. And you know, I didn't know what was going on. But toward the end of the interview I said, I'm sorry for asking some stupid questions. And Ford said, well, they weren't, it wasn't that. But all you people asked the same questions. All you people, I mean, you know, you all ask the same questions. I'm sick and tired of trying to answer them because I don't know the answers. I'm just a hard nosed, hard working.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ex director.

[John Ford]

And I'm trying to retire gracefully. There was that long pause, very moving, before he said x director. So he retired during our interview and that kind of stunned me. I didn't know what prompted it. But many years later when I went through his papers at Indiana University in Bloomington, I was looking at his correspondence for that week. He was expecting a letter or a phone call from an Italian producer who was hopefully going to make a spaghetti western for Ford. Ford was facing the fact that day that the project was not going to happen. He basically realized his career was over. So it Was a very painful and dramatic moment for me to be there.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

John Ford and his wife Mary sold their home in Bel Air and moved to Palm desert, California in 1972. Leaving Los Angeles didn't really bother Ford, but he was terribly depressed when he had to let go of his boat, the Aaroner. Upkeep had become too expensive and without a salary coming in, the Fords needed the cash. The Arener, 106ft long, was sold for $25,000 in 1969. Those moves left John Ford landlocked outside Palm Springs and sick. He took steroids to dull the pain, downers to fall asleep, uppers to wake back up. And he never stopped drinking or smoking. But at the end of March 1973, Ford mustered the strength for one last public appearance.

[John Ford]

The American Film Institute presents a salute to John Ford.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ford became the first recipient of the AFI Life Achievement Award. One night and just one honoree, John Ford. Unlike most award shows, Ford showed up for this one. The ballroom at the Beverly Hilton Hotel was stacked with Hollywood A listers. Charlton Heston, Jimmy Stewart, Maureen o', Hara, Jack Lemmon. Henry Fonda was not there, but his daughter Jane was. She was protesting outside the hotel. The protests were aimed not at Ford, but at one of his friends. A special visitor from Washington.

[John Ford]

Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States and Mrs. Nixon and our guest of honor for the evening, Mr. John Ford.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

John Ford and Richard Nixon made their grand entrance together. Ford came out first. Sitting in a wheelchair, pushed by his chauffeur. He looked pale and gaunt. He wore a tux and his trademark eye patch. And between his fingers he held a lit cigar. Behind him walked the President of the United States. Nixon was smiling. Ford was not.

[John Ford]

Mr. President.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The evening was a series of speeches, tributes to Ford. Naturally, John wayne spoke. At 65 years old, Wayne was still very much a movie star. A star who owed his career to Ford and he knew it.

[John Ford]

I was lucky enough to be a part of what we lovingly call the Ford Stock Company.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

There have been few partnerships in the movies like John Ford and John Wayne. Their careers, their fame, their lives were intertwined.

[John Ford]

I could talk of Pappy through personal experience and anecdote. But tonight I prefer to speak of him as the artist.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

They'd never been openly emotional with each other. That just wasn't their way. But here, with all of Hollywood watching, Duke decided to tell his old friend, his mentor, his surrogate father, just how much he meant to him.

[John Ford]

He helped me through those rough years of early success and a certain amount of adulation which is hard for the young and the immature to cope with. I love him. I could say more. Thank you.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Many of the speeches that night from those Hollywood luminaries praised Ford for his poetry and his eye for beauty. Ford, no doubt, was mortified.

[John Ford]

I now come to my part in the program.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

When it was Nixon's turn, the President gave Ford his second award of the night. The Presidential Medal of Freedom. Then Nixon did something only a President could do.

[John Ford]

Some have called him Boss, and others have called him Jack. And most have called him Pappy. But there was one term that I did not like. They called him a rear admiral. John Ford was never rear. And as Commander in Chief of the armed forces for the balance of this evening, John Ford is a full admiral.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It may have been strictly an honorary title, but Ford was visibly moved.

[John Ford]

Ladies and gentlemen, I'm overcome with gratitude. I wish I had the words to express my feelings, but I don't. God bless Richard Nixon. Thank you. I think he was thrilled with his position in the Navy and his honors in the Navy and his functioning in the Navy. That really, absolutely fascinated him. But he has taken an enormously distinguished artistic career absolutely for granted.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

After the AFI ceremony, John Ford returned to Palm Desert, where he rarely left home. In fact, he rarely left his bedroom. He stayed in bed, shades drawn to keep out the heat, air conditioning on full blast. The room reeked of cigar smoke. Dan Ford showed up to interview his grandfather about his life.

[John Ford]

You're not taping this? Yeah, I am. Oh, shit.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He had other visitors, too. Old directors who lived in the desert dropped by by fellow legends like Howard Hawks and Frank Capra. Obviously, Katherine Heern came to see him, too. Other actors and friends drove out from LA to say goodbye. Without ever having to say the words goodbye. As volatile as John Ford could be, he instilled intense loyalty from the people who worked with him. Friends, family and colleagues streamed in to pay their respects. Even though they knew Ford no longer had any pull in Hollywood. As his cancer progressed, Ford needed full time caretaking. Dan Ford says Woody Strode flew in straight from a film set to be by his side.

[John Ford]

When John Ford was dying, Woody Strode was spending the nights with him, sleeping on the floor beside him. Now, how much more can you love a man than that?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

One former collaborator who did not make the trip to the desert was John Wayne. It took Dobie Carey to prod Wayne into action. Here's Kerry talking to pbs.

[John Ford]

I said to Wayne, how long has it been since you saw the old man? And he said, oh, I don't know, quite a while. And I said, he's very sick. He says he's not sick. He says he can't get a job. So he's making people feel sorry for him. And I said, duke, he's very sick. God love him. He had to go back to California for something or other. And he went back and he went over to see Jack Ford. And of course he was very ill. And he came back and he says, you were right. He's really sick.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

John Wayne and John Ford drank brandy and reminisced into the afternoon. When Wayne had to leave, he was due back on a movie set the day after John Wayne left. August 31, 1973, at 6:35pm John Ford died. He was surrounded by family. A priest was there, so was a nurse. And one other person, Woody Strobe, was with him.

[John Ford]

Which is only right because he just adored Woody. And they were very close. And I think Woody was holding his hand when he passed away. FOREIGN.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ford lived to be 79 years old. He was born in 1894, which made him roughly as old as the movies themselves. He directed, by our count, 142 films. Many of the biggest names in movies came to Ford's funeral at the Blessed Sacrament Catholic Church in Hollywood. Henry Fonda showed up. So did Jimmy Stewart, Woody Strode and so many others. Some knew him well, some only by reputation. John Wayne accompanied Ford's wife, Mary. His eyes were red from crying. John Ford's casket was draped with a tattered American flag that had flown at the Battle of Midway. My mission this season was to decode John Ford, to figure him out. I can't say I've entirely succeeded. I'm certain that John Ford loved making movies. He especially liked making them away from Hollywood.

[John Ford]

Yes, sir. All right, we're rolling. I'd like to leave this place with a smog and fog and traffic and freeways and I like to get out, you know, and live in the open. You work hard, you get up, you work late, you ate dinner and afternoon, you sleep well. Thanks. Try it again. I like the actors, the actresses, the grips, the electricians. Regardless of what the story is, I'd like to work in pictures.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I'm certain Ford was often lonely, though throughout his life he did experience genuine friendship.

[John Ford]

I've never had more fun in my life than on locations with Ford. Whether it was playing pitch or the campfires or whatever and just remembering it, I get emotional about it.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I'm also certain Ford was incredibly tough on the people around him and often cruel. But now I believe, like Katharine Hepburn. That a hidden gentleness played an outsized role in defining his legacy.

[John Ford]

His sensitivity to life and to people is so enormous that he just gets that message very, very fast. That's why I think he's such a good director now. I think he was everlastingly having to prove himself, to give himself confidence, to go on. Yeah, I think he did not sit easily in the world at all.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Maybe because of that, Ford didn't always treat people well. One could argue, though, he regularly treated himself even worse. What I do know, what so many of us know, is that along the way, John Ford created some of the most beautiful, emotional and. And impactful movies ever made.

[John Ford]

Normal. What the hell is so normal about my life? Fella ain't got a soul of his own Just little piece of a big.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Soul.

[John Ford]

Haven't I any right to live? What have I done? We're the victims of a foul disease called social prejudice, my child. What do you want me to do? Draw your picture? Spell it out? Don't ever ask me. Long as you live, don't ever ask me more.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Trying to understand Ford has been frustrating and elusive. But I take solace in knowing that despite his demons and a lifetime of mistakes, John Ford became the very thing he wanted to be. 120 years ago, before movies even had sound, young John Ford stared out at the horizon off the coast of Maine and had an idea.

[John Ford]

As a kid, I thought I was going to be an artist. I used to sketch and paint a great deal. And I think for, you know, for a kid, you know, I did pretty good work. I always had an eye for composition. That's all I did have. Foreign.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Is our director of podcasts. Story editor is Karen Duffin. Yaakov Friedman is our senior producer. Script writing by Yaakov Friedman, Maya Croft and James Sheridan, who also fact check every episode for us. Audio editing and sound design by Brandon Arnold, James Kim and Mike Vulgaris. Mixing by Glenn Matullo. Research by Matt Goldberg. Production support from Liz Winter, Allison Fire, Matthew Ownby, Julie Bettone, Emma Morris, Susan B. Sak, Dorie Stegman and Phil Richards. Thanks to our legal team, Jon Renau and Kristen Hassell. And to the talents of TCM staffers Darren Jacobs, Katie Daniels, David Byrne, Diana Bosch, Caroline Wigmore, Michelle Height, Stephanie Thames. And to our resident ford scholar, Scott McGee. Our executive producer is Charlie Tavish. Special thanks to Dan Ford for sharing his family archive with us. And to the helpful team at Indiana University's Lilly Library. Special thanks to Prudence Doherty and Chris Burns. From the Silver Specials Collections Library at the University of Vermont. Special thanks to Joseph McBride for allowing us to use his interview with John Ford from Novel. Thanks to producer Philippa Goodrich, story editor Veronica Simmons, researcher Valeria Raka, assistant producer Nadia Mehti, production managers Cherie Houston and Charlotte Wolf, executive producer Max o' Brien and creative director Willard Foxton. Thomas Avery of Toonwelders composed our theme music. This has been Season five of the Plot Thickens, a podcast from Turner Classic Movies in partnership with Novel. I'm Ben Mankiewicz. All of us at TCM are so glad you listened.