Make Your Podcast Listenable

Summary

The Podcast Superfriends – “Make Your Podcast Listenable”

Date: April 8, 2026
Hosts: Matt Cundill, Jon Gay (“JAG”), David Yas, Johnny Peterson
Theme: Best Practices for Creating Compelling, Listen-Ready Podcast Content

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Episode Overview

In this episode, the Podcast Superfriends dive deep into the craft of making podcasts truly “listenable.” Drawing from decades of collective experience, they break down the nitty-gritty aspects of podcast production that separate forgettable shows from those that keep audiences coming back. The discussion centers on opening strategies, recurring segments, effective guest introductions, prepping hosts and guests, and mastering the interviewing craft—all to help podcasters deliver professional, engaging, and enjoyable episodes, every time.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Hooking Listeners Right from the Start

(03:03–14:06)

• The Importance of the First Impression:
  Johnny: “You have to hook them in the first 30 seconds. I think now it’s probably the first five seconds.” [03:50]
  • It’s all about knowing your audience—some shows need no intro, others thrive with a cold open/highlight reel.
• AI Tools for Cold Opens:
  • Tools like Descript and Riverside can help identify memorable moments, but:
    Johnny: “I still think that the human mind is the best avenue to pick those clips.” [04:39]
    • He presents several cold open options to the host for a final decision.
• Choosing a Cold Open Style:
  • Matt is skeptical of teaser-heavy starts, preferring a direct approach:
    Matt: “What I would prefer is to write out 30 seconds or 45 seconds…telling people what they’re listening to and why they’re here. I’m all about the why…” [09:27]
  • If your show has a long intro, consider a cold open to “give them that nugget to keep them going versus sitting through a two or three minute intro.” (JAG) [11:14]

The Art and Science of Recurring Segments

(15:38–25:51)

• Why Recurring Segments?
  • JAG says they create “an air of professionalism,” offering guideposts and predictable fun for listeners. [16:42]
  • Example: Steeped in Wellness closes each episode with “the same two questions” – a device both guests and audiences enjoy.
• Contrarian View:
  • Matt isn’t a fan “because they’re borrowed from radio,” and warns if they’re at the end, “it’s actually a flag for the listener to say, this show is ending, I’m out.” [17:52]
• Making It Work:
  • Johnny likes recurring questions to help “land the plane” for hosts, especially if the conversation is winding down. Unique questions relevant to the niche keep super-fans engaged, e.g., “What is your favorite hotel?” for a hospitality show. [20:34]
  • Matt’s pro-tip: Don’t announce a recurring question, let it become an inside joke for loyal listeners. [22:31]
  • Use a “catch-all” closing question:
    “Is there anything you want to talk about that I haven’t asked you about?” [23:11]

Playful Segment – Podcast Hosts Pick Their Favorite Ice Cream

(25:23–26:07)

• Each host shares their favorite ice cream flavor, riffing on how recurring questions can foster camaraderie and unexpected fun.

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Introducing Guests: Avoiding the Bio Slog

(27:17–34:20)

• Don’t Read the Whole Bio:
  JAG: “Please, please, no (to reading a 15-minute publicist bio). Take the bio…Give me a highlight. Give me something interesting.” [27:49]
• Integrate Bio Details Into Conversation:
  • “Work it into your questions,” suggests JAG: “Jag, I know you graduated from Syracuse, but why are you a Michigan fan?” [28:22]
  • Johnny: “We’re not putting the block of marble up for people to pay and look at. We want to chop it down into the statue of David…” [29:46]
• If guests want to tell their story at length, let them—then edit to what matters for the listener. [32:24]
• Never open with a lazy “Tell me about yourself,” warns Matt: “What follows is…the biggest lies. They will talk about the picnic…things that are just not important.” [32:50]
• Do Research—but not too much: Blend curiosity with a few targeted insights.

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Prepping Your Guest & Yourself

(38:29–44:25)

• Production Prep is as Vital as Content:
  Johnny details his checklist for remote guests:
  • Use only one browser tab for your recording platform (Riverside, etc)
  • Wear headphones
  • Use provided microphones, with clear, simple setup instructions
  • Eliminate distractions and background noise
  • “I’m editing this—if you flub, we’ll redo it. You have nothing to worry about.” [39:20]
• Comfort Breeds Performance:
  JAG: “Making me, the host and the guest comfortable led to a much more at ease conversation…” [40:09]
• Live or Pre-recorded? Always clarify.
• Promotional Guests: Set expectations up front so the episode doesn’t become a 45-minute ad. [43:11]

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What If an Interview Bombs? When NOT to Publish

(44:25–48:25)

• Be Honest (or Tactful):
  Johnny: “I think you just have to have the cojones to say…this wasn’t very good…let’s revisit this in about six months and try again.” [45:36]
  • Don’t be afraid to protect your feed’s quality, even if it means awkwardness with a guest—“respect your audience.”
• Alternate Tactics:
  • Blame technical issues (if real), or offer to edit and seek approval later.
  • Sometimes, content is withheld to sidestep legal issues or at the guest’s request (see Matt’s “fiery guest” story). [47:10]

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Mastering the Art of Interviewing

(49:52–61:23)

• Clarity and Context:
  David: “Let’s not forget…the listener needs to know who’s speaking and why they should listen.” [14:06]
  • Always provide context for guests, references, and in-jokes.
• Don’t Ignore the ‘Obvious’ Questions:
  • Hosts must step in and clarify for listeners, not just ride along with the guest’s insider references. [51:02]
• Be an Active Listener Not a Question Machine:
  • Matt recounts Terry Gross nearly missing a huge news moment because she was distracted: “It’s really, really important to listen to what your guest is saying.” [52:38]
  • If something is newsworthy or surprising, pause and ask for clarification or repetition.
• Avoid the “Yeah, Yeah, Mmhmm” Trap:
  Johnny (with a live example): If the host constantly interjects affirmations, it becomes torture for the listener and difficult to edit—“it’s just unuseful.” [54:32]
  • JAG: Occasional affirmations are fine “for the rhythm of the conversation,” but constant ones ruin audio quality and create editing nightmares. [55:52]
• The Power of Silence:
  • Let answers breathe, especially for emotional or thoughtful moments.
    Danny Brown (listener): “Practice the art of listening and how to hold silence.” [57:03]
    • Examples: Elon Musk’s long pause on Joe Rogan’s show.
  • JAG: “If your mind wanders, it’s okay to ask someone to repeat something.” [53:19]
• Preparation Enables Spontaneity:
  Matt: “If you want to have spontaneity, be prepped…The more confident you are, the more likely you’ll have those moments.” [59:33]

Audio Quality is Non-Negotiable

(60:22)

• JAG: “If your podcast doesn’t have good audio quality, it’s not relevant.”
  • Johnny’s repeated analogy: “Audio is your shoes, video is your socks.” [60:22]
  • Bad sound will turn off listeners no matter the content.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Crafting Good Opens:
  • “Ideally, you as the host are choosing your cold open…you should try to know the content enough to identify, oh, this really caught my attention.” (Johnny, 04:39)
• Recurring Segments Contrarian:
  • “If you are doing it at the end, [the segment] is actually a flag for the listener to say, this show is ending, I’m out.” (Matt, 17:52)
• Comfort Breeds Quality:
  • JAG: “Making me, the host and the guest comfortable led to a much more at ease conversation.” (40:09)
• Editing Ethics:
  • Johnny: “You have to have enough respect for your audience to go: For their benefit, I’m not going to put this out, even if it risks making things awkward with the guest….” (46:03)
• On Listening:
  • Matt (on Terry Gross): “It’s really, really important to listen to what your guest is saying.” (52:38)
  • Danny Brown (listener): “Practice the art of listening and how to hold silence.” (57:03)
• On Improving as an Interviewer:
  • Johnny: “The best way to get better at being a podcast interviewer is to interview people on your podcast. Doing the podcast is the class.” (61:05)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Hooking Listeners/Cold Opens: 03:03–14:06
• Recurring Segments: 15:38–25:51
• Introducing Guests/Preparing for Interviews: 27:17–34:20, 38:29–44:25
• Dealing with Bad Episodes: 44:25–48:25
• Mastering Interview Technique: 49:52–61:23
• Final Tips & Audio Quality: 60:22–61:23

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Final Takeaways

• There is no single “right” way to structure or open a podcast, but know your audience, respect their time, and make every moment count.
• Give the listener a compelling reason to stay, and don’t be afraid to break radio traditions if they don’t serve your content.
• Recurring features and memorable closer questions can provide structure—but only if they’re genuinely interesting.
• Prep both technical and content aspects: comfort and clarity supercharge interviews.
• Quality audio is essential—a killer interview won’t save tin-can sound.
• Above all: listen, stay curious, and keep evolving. And as Johnny says, “Doing the podcast is the class.”

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For more from the Superfriends, find video, notes, and more at soundoff.network or follow the hosts as cited in the episode.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

right in one spot.

[A]

And turn real time reporting into big time opportunities. Take your business to a whole new level. Switch to Shopify. Start your free trial today. The Podcast Super Friends five podcast pros talking tech, promotion, marketing ideas and strategy.

[B]

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, welcome back to the Podcast Super Friends. It's the podcast where podcast titans of the industry answer your questions on all things podcasting, putting a show together, distributing, and everything in between. I would love to introduce you to our panel. We are one woman short and which leaves us with zero women. Sadly. We'll do better. But Catherine o' Brien couldn't join us today, but she sends her regards. She's traveling someplace exotic probably, but we'll go around. I will introduce you guys and then you can add whatever snappy tagline or tell us where to reach you. That kind of thing will start. Oh, deep in the heart of Texas. If you think he's handsome now, you should have seen him before all that sleepy loss when his child was born. Johnny. Podcast Johnny.

[C]

I'm significantly wrinklier a year into having a child, but happy to be here.

[B]

Very good. We go north of the border to Canada, where we all wish we lived. And he is an accomplished voice artist and also. What's this? A first lieutenant in the. Oh. In the Bills army. Thank you for your service, Matt Kundle.

[D]

Yeah, that's the Bill's mafia. We still have snow, by the way, in Canada, so it may not be the most ideal place this week.

[B]

Oh, you're right. It is the Bill's mafia. All right. You just got promoted to a cap. Capo. Capo in the Bills mafia. Capo. All right. And finally, Detroit Rock City is represented by my buddy here, originally from Boston, but now in the 313. And he's pretty, he's witty, and he's gay because that's his name, Johnny. He goes by Jack. Jack.

[A]

Home of the newly crowned national champion Michigan Wolverines here in the Great Lakes State. Thank you for that. Appreciate that. Go Blue.

[B]

Go Blue.

[C]

Oh, now it's go Blue.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What do you mean, now it's go Blue?

[C]

Pretty sure you would have been this whole. This whole. Yeah, you're a Syracuse, I'm bilingual.

[A]

I've got Otto the Orange behind me. Which way am I going? Am I going this way. Nope, going this way.

[C]

I love how JAG just gets to adopt whatever team is good, whatever way the wind blows.

[B]

Well, today, listeners and viewers, we have best practices for compelling podcast content. What separates a great podcast from just a good podcast? We talk this show a lot about the industry, which is all important. We'll probably get back to that in our next episode. But we thought maybe go back to basics. What do you do to create a great episode? And starting at the beginning, what do you do at the beginning of your show? So some shows will begin with a teaser quote, a so called cold open, and I just want to kind of go around the bend here and see what thoughts these days or any devices our podcast producers here are using to create great content. We'll go the same way around. Johnny, would you like to offer any nuggets, words of wisdom on opening a show?

[C]

I think one of the things we say often on the show, and I think JAG has the credit for always saying this is like you have to hook them in the first 30 seconds. I think now it's probably the first five seconds. And so I wonder if times are changing. And I think what it all comes down to is you have to know who your audience is and that's going to be different for every single show. But I've seen shows go both ways where there's no cold open. We're just diving right into the episode. It is like a two second graphic of the name of the show and it's right into the episode. No ads, no intro, no here's who I am, nothing. And there are audiences out there for that. And then there's the cold open audience. And even within the cold open, there's different ways of going about it which we'll to touch on, you know, a few topics into this show, like the really edited highlight reel versus just 30 seconds to 90 seconds of a really great story. And again, that's all audience based. But I think descript is a really great tool. The create clips button is one that I use often. However, I still think that the human mind is the best avenue to pick those clips. So it's like with anything with AI, you're using it as your scaffolding and then you're going from there because it's not perfect. So ideally you as the host are choosing your cold open as you're going through the episode. If you're the one editing it and producing it. If you're a podcast producer, you should try to know the content enough to where you can identify, oh, this really caught my attention. This really caught my attention. Okay, of these three or four here, which are the best ones? And the way that I kind of do it with the people that I work with is I'm going through the episode. All four of us have worked on tens of thousands of hours of podcasts. We know what good 30 seconds sounds like and we know what crap 30 seconds sounds like. What I will do is pull three to four options or even eight to nine options and present those to the host. Because it's their content, it's their show, they know who their audience is and then they're going to choose which one they like the best. That's what's going at the top.

[B]

And will you provide any identification, in other words, you hear in other. This is the kind of cold open I was talking about. Is call it a teaser quote or whatever. It's a quote from the guest. And by the way, that's a good tip there. If you, if you want to use AI to sort of speed the process. You, if you're in the app to script, you can ask the script for 10 memorable moments in the podcast, then pick from there.

[A]

Riverside as well.

[B]

Riverside does that as well. Okay. If you've got a transcript of the podcast, type it in, put it into any AI engine and say pick out four or five 30 second clips. Johnny, will you have. Let's say so you hear that called open. You hear, and that was the last time I saw my dog Rusty. There's. I don't know if that's good or not, but. And then will you, will you put in the voice of the host saying, you know, that's dog enthusiast Jim Jones. He's the guest on this episodes. You know what I'm saying?

[C]

I hear what you're saying. And again, I think it's all the common answer is going to be, it depends on the show. So one of the shows that I'm thinking about is more geared towards private market investors. So people that raise a lot of money and are writing a lot of checks. So we're not going for personal stories on that one. We're going to go, I'm looking for that show specifically. I'm looking for, here's what this person thinks about the market, a certain asset class that they're investing in, how they're thinking about raising capital within their business, things like that, versus more of a variety show where a personal story is really what's going to hook somebody in there. So again, it. We all play in different worlds of the type of podcast we're making. So those cold opens and what we're looking for are going to be different. So you have to, as the host of your own show, you have to look at what am I like, what type of person am I trying to attract to become the listener of this show?

[B]

So, Matt, I was going to call on you next and then I realized I forgot to let you have the floor at the top of the show because you have a, a message for us. Do you want to do that now or between topics or.

[D]

I don't mind doing it now. Now's as good as any.

[B]

Sure.

[D]

We have a message from James Cridland from Pod News.

[C]

I'm James Cridland from Pod News. Let me tell you about the Pod News Report Card. It's the fifth year for our annual [e-mail] reportcard and it lets you have your say about the major podcast platforms like Apple, Spotify, YouTube and Amazon. It makes podcasting better for everyone by sharing that feedback from you, whether you're a podcast creator or just a listener. Two new features at Apple and Spotify are a direct result of the POD News report card. So we can make a difference. I'd love it if you could fill it out. It takes less than 10 minutes. PodNews.net Reportcard is the place to go. You've got until the end of this month. That's podnews.netreportcard.

[A]

thank you for all you do for this business. James Kridland, you are a godsend.

[B]

Matt, you want to provide any more color on that or what, what that means to you?

[D]

The report card? Yeah, yeah, the report card. You know, a couple years ago we started to get feedback from the report card and James went to Apple and showed all the feedback. And one of the things was it's really hard to get your show into Apple and so Apple said let's just make it easier. So the feedback that happens, the more people that contribute to the report card, the better that Apple and Spotify and YouTube are going to be able to sort of shape what our listeners want. So that's actually a mid roll that's running on the Sound off podcast and as well in the podcast Super Friends. I thought it'd share it here today.

[B]

Excellent. Thank you for sharing. We can now return to our regularly scheduled topic. And Matt, would you like to add anything on opening a show, opening an episode?

[D]

Yeah, I'm not big on, on the opening teaser. I think it's born out of radio. I thought it was a necessity in public radio. It was something that would, you know, start off the top, but it would really was there for a reason for the listener to, to, you know, listen through all the quarter hours, get as much ratings as possible and, and hang until that spot because they knew something compelling would be coming up. In podcasting, we've got transcripts you can, there's a fast forward button, there's a whole bunch of other things going on. I don't know that I'm too comfortable relying on one hook at the start of the show. I will say Johnny's right. It does depend. There is a depends element to this. What I would prefer is to write out 30 seconds or 45 seconds somewhere in there giving listeners the reason to listen to the next 30 to 45 minutes. I want to be in control of the writing and as well tell people what they're listening to and why they're here. I'm all about the why because people are going to listen to the show. Well, why am I listening to this? Well, I'm going to give you the reason in 30 to 45 seconds. And that's how I like to open up a show.

[A]

I like that. Matt, if I could jump in now, I'll say, you know, to zoom out for a second. Cold open, if you're not familiar with the term. That's how Saturday Night Live starts every week. It's right into a sketch before the credits and then the, the thing you can't unsee once it's pointed out to you. I know this happened to me and I share this with clients is if you are watching Wheel of Fortune or Jeopardy, both start with the first round of the puzzle or the game. They don't start with introducing the contestants. You meet the contestants after the first commercial break, they jump right into the game. I think in terms of a cold open, it can be audience dependent, it can be host dependent, it can be a style thing. And I think if you have a long intro, I have some, some clients that they have a produced intro, they have some housekeeping they do at the beginning of the show. I think if you have a long intro, that is a better reason to do a cold open. That way you are giving them that nugget to keep them going versus, you know, sitting through a two or three minute intro with, with you know, updates and things like that before you've given them attention getter for the rest of the episode. The way I choose a cold open, yes, you can use AI if you're limited resources. What I do is most of my podcasts have Transcripts, I send them out for a transcription and when I get the transcript back and I proofread the transcript, as I'm proofing the transcript, I'm looking for that clip and then as I'm scanning, because sometimes it's easier just to see it in text, at least for me it is as a producer, than be listening and, you know, noting when I hear something great in the episode, if I'm recording it. But I'll skim that transcript and if I see, oh, that's it right there, I'll just highlight it in the transcript and then I'll go back to, in my case, Riverside, and I'll clip that specific, you know, 30, 60, 90 seconds.

[B]

Just to ask a sort of devil's advocate question. If you have. I think what you're referring to is a pre recorded open to the show, maybe a voiceover with some music, etc. Is it too much to have a teaser? And then when you talked about the recorded opening, I started thinking, I've produced a lot of recorded openings and sometimes they're kind of like a highlight reel of the hosts. Like, here's what to expect. Here's this person saying this and this. And I love it when I first produce it. And then after doing a few episodes, I'm like, is it too long? Is it too long?

[A]

For my JAG show podcast, Dave. And for a five minute podcast, when I started out, I had like 30 seconds of artists from my radio career. Hey, it's Jag. Hey, you're listening to Jag. Hey, it's Bruno Mars. Listen to Jag. And my wife was like, why the hell do you need that? And I was like, you're smart, I don't need that. And my, and my five. And now I have a five second intro for my five minute podcast. So I think the more traffic, for lack of a better term you have at the beginning of the show, the better. Use case you have for a cold open. Because if you're, you know, I have some clients where there's a produced open, there's their intro, there's their, like some will do. And this is another way to start the show. A bit of a recap of the thing. Oh, you're going to love this conversation I had with David Yassin. He talked all about his show, past tens, a top 10 time machine and, and go from there. But you know, if you've got a lot of stuff before, a real attention getter for that audience that Johnny's playing with, those goldfish attention spans at that Point A cold open could be a useful tool just to, you know. Okay, now I'm going to sit through this open the pre recorded intro because that nugget came up of Dave talking about the greatest Aerosmith songs of all time.

[B]

You've just covered everything I ever talk about, Jake. So thank you. But excellent points all around. I think we're talking about kind of fancy fan smancy devices to get the the listener hooked. It. It doesn't change the fact that let's not forget the tried and true rule of podcasting is within the first 30 to 60 seconds, we better know who's speaking and why. I should listen to this podcast and if you got a guest, who the guest is or at least some clue as who, who the guest is. We're, we're talking about how to get right into that. There's no one way, as all of you have said, to, to start a podcast. I think for a while, for a couple shows I was doing, I would do the teaser quote kind of thing and then one day I was like, is there a better way to do this? Because I feel like I spend a lot of time on this. I'll play an example of a show I used to produce. It's called Monsterland. It was about the paranormal and the unexplained. It was actually a very entertaining show. But one day the host decided he's just going to sit down on the mic and he's going to cold open. But he's going to do it himself and he's going to preview the topics coming up in the show. Take a listen. All right, cold open. Are we good? In three, two. Tonight on an all new Monsterland, did a trail cam pick up a squatch and a stud hipsters. Catch a shape shifting squatch in Shasta. Doctor, Doctor, give us the news. You got a bigfoot that's stalking you. Let's go. And then right into the opening of the show.

[A]

He worked in radio, didn't he?

[B]

He actually is a morning drive time radio host in Providence right now. Matty Blake. The great Matty Blake Shadow. Yeah, so that and that, that may appeal to you. It's also a quick and easy way of getting the whole cold open thing out of the way. So take it for what it's worth. Yeah, I like it. All right, let's move on. Let's talk about recurring segments. I'm a big fan of recurring segments. I think it's especially in the world of podcasting where podcasts can go. Of course we know they can be short like the amazing Jag Jags podcast, which is only 5 minutes, but they can go as long as 45 minutes, 60 minutes, 2 hours, and without guideposts for the listener. I think you run the risk of losing people and getting them bored if you have segments that, whether they be a game, an icebreaker kind of thing, maybe one at the beginning, one at the middle. Let's get into some of the tried and true ways or anything you've been working on recently that you kind of like as a recurring segment. We'll go the other way this time. Jag, do you have thoughts on this?

[A]

I'm thinking of this because I recorded with them an hour ago. But one of my clients, macho.com they have a podcast called Steeped in Wellness, and they end this podcast with the same two questions, which are, oh, it's, you know, it's what's a lesson you've had to learn the hard way? And what's a mantra that you're using in your life? It's a wellness podcast, and I kind of like the idea of recurring segment. It gives an air of professionalism, I think, to the podcast, where it's a little bit like, okay, this is a well produced, well planned out show because you want to have some spontaneity, but I think you also want to show that you have some pre planning and organization to your show as well, and it's something for your audience to hang their hat on.

[B]

I agree. And what you just mentioned is a good kind of simple thing. I've had podcasters do that too. The same three questions, and sometimes you mix them up or they can be standard. There are no rules, but people love that stuff, and I think the guests really love that stuff too. Matt, your thoughts?

[D]

So, I don't like recurring segments. I don't like.

[C]

I don't like cold opens.

[A]

I don't like opinions on.

[C]

I don't like podcasts.

[D]

Again, again, it's. It's something that's borrowed from radio, and radio has the power to do it because they put it on at the same time every day and people know exactly where to find it. And Jag, you just mentioned that you. It happens at the end of a show. Well, what percentage of people actually get to the end of the show? So how much are we really ingraining that recurring segment into people's minds now? Listen, if it's been going on for 100 episodes and the consumption's there, then great, keep it. But it's very, very difficult to get people to fall into line to know exactly that this is happening, especially if you're doing it at, you know, towards the end of the show. And I might throw something else out. If you are doing it at the end of the show, and let's say the recurring segment is so. So where it's okay. It's actually a flag for the listener to say, this show is ending, I'm out. So if they don't like that recurring segment at the end, your consumption goes down.

[A]

That's why. Another reason we've talked about in previous episodes is trying to coach clients to get away from that natural instinctual of. Hey, before we wrap up, here's my last question before I let you go. Because it is that flag to listeners of. Okay, well, I've heard most of the episode. I'm, I'm, you know, I'm going to move on to the next shiny object. So I've tried.

[D]

Which was, by the way, totally fine in radio because people knew that the news was coming up on wbz.

[A]

Oh, great reference.

[B]

Well, I mean, but, but Matt, again, what does Catherine call it?

[A]

Loving counterpoint.

[B]

Friendly counterpoint. Right. If the segment is compelling and it's at the end of the show, is that not a reason that listeners might stick around?

[D]

If it's good, it's good.

[B]

Again, if it's good.

[D]

How many more things do you have, David, that I'm going to dislike today?

[A]

Just everything on the list. Matt's gonna be like, fine, but only if it's good.

[B]

Knocking them down. No, no viva difference. I said then there's no two different. There's no right way to do a podcast. Adam Carolla is a legendary podcaster in terms of numbers of downloads and all that. I don't know if he still does it because I don't listen to his show anymore, but he used to do this thing where at the very end of the show there'd be these, these callbacks to some random moment in the episode. And the sound effect guy, Brian, did such a good job picking them up. It was always good for a laugh. It was just a funny little callback out of context maybe. I would always listen to the very end of the show, even after all this stuff like, make sure you catch us here and follow us here anyway.

[A]

It's like watching them watching the credits in a Marvel movie. You never know what Easter egg you're going to.

[B]

How about that? How about doing an after credit sequence of a podcast? Has anyone done that? I'm sure. Johnny, your thoughts?

[C]

I agree a lot with what Matt said. The segment has to be really compelling in order to have it there, especially if it's the closing one. But I think also it can be used as well to be a director for the host. So I come across a lot of episodes where I'm listening through the conversation, whether I'm sitting there live or whether I'm working on it in post. And you can kind of just tell that the conversation has started to. It's reached its apex, and now we're, we're descending and we want to land this plane and wrap up the episode. But the host just can't really find a groove without saying, like, okay, we're done. This has been great. Tell us what. So I've encouraged hosts to be like, having a question that you always ask at the end that lands the plane for you. If you're stuck on trying to figure out how to get yourself out of this interview, get yourself out of this episode. Episode, have that question to be like, this is what we always ask at the end. And you just, it can, you can totally change the subject because it's, it's, it's recurring thing. And you've praised it as. I asked my guests every, I asked every guest the same question. And a great example of this is I work on a hotel hospitality real estate podcast. And his closing question that he came up with was, was, what is your favorite hotel? All of his guests are people who develop some of the most amazing hotels in the world, people who invest in hotels, they own management companies. And so every single gu is bringing such a different radical perspective. And we haven't, there's. There's a thousands, hundreds of thousands of hotels around the world and someone that we've never even heard of. And so it's, it's. That is an example of a great recurring segment that if you are a listener who is obsessed with the hospitality industry, you probably know who this guest is. You've listened through the entire episode that therefore, you're already, you're, you're a fan. You're a super fan at that point. Now we're getting you to listen all the way through to the end because this guest is going to list off some hotel that you probably have never heard of. And it's a really great way to. One. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Motel 6 in South Dallas is my favorite.

[D]

Can I talk, Can I toss out something a little bit nutty? And this would be something I would suggest when it comes to like, oh, we're going to do, like a recurring segment. What if you didn't and you didn't announce it as a recurring segment. What if every show, you just ask the same question at the end, and what happens at that point is it becomes an inside bit for those who are most loyal to your show, who will always know that you end the show with this question. So not everyone's in on it, but your most loyal audience is.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, tomato, tomato to some degree, right? It's.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm always up for semantics.

[A]

But a quick. Sorry, sorry, Interrupt. A quick pro tip would be a great question to ask at the end, and if it doesn't go anywhere, you can always cut it out when you do the edit. A great tip, you should almost always ask, is there anything you want to talk about that I haven't asked you about? That is such a great question. You can either close with it. You can cut if it doesn't go anywhere, because sometimes a guest will give you absolute gold that you are not expecting. Is there anything you wanted to mention that I didn't cover with you or anything you want to mention that I didn't ask you about? That is a great closer because you never know. Forrest Gump. It's a box of chocolates.

[C]

Yeah. A great way I've heard it phrased that exact question. Jag is what? Do you wish I had asked you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Even better. Yeah. Yeah. Because it. Because it's. It's also sort of falling on your sword and saying I'm not the perfect host. What? Come on. Let me know what we missed.

[D]

I'm stealing that.

[B]

All right. Something that Matt liked. A round of applause for that. So just to pick up on what you said, Johnny, about the favorite hotel. I love that question because everybody has a favorite hotel. I don't know. I love hotels. I'd always like to hear if. If I can't afford a hotel, I want to know why. It was so cool. I have a. A host who started this habit of asking three questions at the end. He didn't even tell me about it. He's just like, I'm gonna ask three questions at the end. So I'm like, well, why don't we turn that into a thing? We'll call it, like, Mike's F. Final three Questions. I created, like, a brief jingle, you

[A]

know, exact opposite of what.

[B]

Matt, we got important business before you go. It's Mike's famous three questions to finish the show. Played that. Yeah. It's a little tongue in cheek. But the one question that he kept standard was, for whatever reason, what's your favorite Ice cream. Now that sounds like something your grandfather would ask you and just be like, I don't know, grandpa chocolate chip or whatever. But then I started keeping a running tally of all the guests and to see like what flavor was winning and it became a thing. And so now it, myself and the host, we get a kick out of it. I don't know if anybody else does, but I'm trying to remember what's winning. I know coffee is up there. It might be chocolate chip cookie dough, I'm not sure. All right, well, we move on.

[C]

Wait, can we go around and do that? Who, what are your guys favorite ice cream?

[B]

You want to do ice cream? Yeah, I do.

[C]

I have mine. If you guys want a moment to think, you go Tillamook mint chocolate chip.

[A]

That's a Michigan one, isn't it?

[B]

Johnny Tillamook.

[C]

I don't care if it's from Mars. Shit's good chocolate.

[B]

Okay, that counts. Jag, you got yours?

[A]

I mean, I'm between the two you mentioned. Chocolate chip cookie dough and coffee. Those are two of my favorites.

[B]

There's one that I'll that I just fell in love with recently. It's Ben and Jerry's Non Dairy and I don't think I'm even lactose intolerant, but it just tastes so good. It's called Oatmeal Dream and it's got like the oats in there and it's really good.

[A]

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[B]

I'm going to jump around. You guys have a sort of agenda in front of you which our Listeners can't see. But let me go to introducing a guest, because I think this is, this is something they're. There are pitfalls here. Most podcasts have guests. What's the best way to introduce a guest? And I hope you're going to say, don't read a 15 minute bio that their publicist submitted.

[A]

Please, please, no.

[B]

Jag, you want to go? Who would like to go first on this one? We don't have no rules here, Jack. You go.

[C]

You go.

[A]

Just what you said, Dave. Do not read the. The. The bio. I had a recent podcast where the hosts were reading the bio and referring to the guest by last name because it was obvious they were reading the bio. Smith then did this. Smith then did this. And it was frustrating because now you're telling the audience you're reading the bio. Take the bio. Give me something. Same thing as cold open. Give me a highlight. Give me something. Give me something interesting. Or if you want to work, another great way to do it. And this takes practice and reps, but if you want the details of the. Of their bio, work it into the conversation. Working in your questions, Jag, I know you graduated from Syracuse, but why are you a Michigan fan? You know, something like that?

[C]

Because they win.

[A]

Syracuse sure doesn't. But G, Mac, you never know anyway. So don't read the bio. Give me. You know, it's an old radio adage, and it applies to podcasting, too. You're not talking to all of you out there in radio land or podcast land. You're talking to that one listener. Tell me, as that one listener, what's interesting about this guest. You're going to love this guest talking about their crazy journey from A to B, or you're not going to believe the story this guest is going to tell you. You use the word you and. And make it about the audience, not about the guest.

[B]

Yeah, and I think you. You bring up a good point that your intro can be as short as that it can be 15 seconds or even less. But I think that what you do want to do is clue the listener in as to why this person. Because most of us don't have famous guests. If we had famous guests all the time, it'd be, yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, Bruno Mars. Do I need to introduce him? You know, who he is? But to give the. The listener a clue as to what this. Maybe what this person's claim to fame is. Maybe that's the way to put it. I don't know.

[C]

Yeah, I think it's. I think it's guests again. It's all guest dependent. Like there are some guests that are just, they're going to be more interesting than others. I actually only, only work on one show where there is a dedicated recorded intro from the host after the conversation. And it's basically we're recapping, we're recapping who the guest is and what is going to be discussed within like 60 seconds. And like Jag said, you want to take this person. Everyone's got the three paragraph bio. He grew up in Fair Park, California and he loved to play tennis and he went to the University of Oregon. Get rid of all that. He was one of the first investors in Facebook. He, he helped Twitter ipo and he's been a founding, you know, he's been a leader in Silicon Valley for the last 25 years. We talk about the grind of Silicon Valley, what it takes to build a tech company in 2026 and a whole lot more whoosh transition. Now we're talking like we're, we're taking start with, you know, think about it like you're carving the statue out of the block of marble. We're not putting the block of marble up for people to pay and go look at. We want to chop it down into the statue of David so it looks beautiful. We can see everything. And we're off into the conversation.

[B]

Does the guest know that that is going to happen after the fact?

[C]

No.

[B]

Okay, looks I do one that does. That's not the answer I was expecting. I guess that's another good podcast rule. Don't think you know what the guest is going to say. But I guess my point is I have one where the host is a lot more comfortable recording his intro to the guest after the fact. That and after I send him the whole interview. Right. So when we get on the call with the guest, I don't know if it's necessary or not, but we tell the guest, by the way, you're just going to hear some music here. There'll be a lot more fanfare and impressive introduction for you that, that Harry records after the fact.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Anyway, just a thought.

[A]

Yeah, I'll record this, I'll record the full intro later, but I want to get into the conversation with you respectful of your time.

[C]

And I've had episodes where like I've had episodes where the guest really wants to talk about their background. And I know we're all on different sides of the, the coin of like whether it's, we should, you know, do like deep dive on guest backgrounds. You can chop that up too. Let Them, let them talk about themselves and hype themselves up from their childhood all the way up until then, we will pick what is the most important thing. And I've never had a guest reach out after an episode goes live and go, you cut out my family picnic at the lake every summ. Like, sorry, dude, it's not important. We, you, you did some amazing things in your career. That's what we're here to talk about.

[A]

The other benefit to that, Johnny, is this an old adage about everybody's favorite topic is themselves. And if you get somebody telling their story, telling their background, you're getting your guests comfortable, you're priming them for back and forth in an interview.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely.

[D]

And we can cut that out later and add it at the very front of the show in the 30 seconds that we're warming up our audience to tell them why they need to listen to this episode.

[A]

The picnic is the cold open.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

I would also like to point out one of the biggest mistakes that happens is that there are podcasters who are lazy and will say, oh, tell me about yourself. And what follows are, is like the biggest lies, you know, people talking about themselves. And they will, they will talk about the picnic. They will talk about things that are just not important. They think it's important. But you're in charge of your audience and you know that person is here for a reason. So keep them on track and do not ask them, tell me about yourself, because it's probably not going to be very relevant to your audience or, you

[C]

know, sorry, Jeff, go ahead.

[A]

No, go ahead, Johnny.

[C]

There's also an element of, like, guest research, which David, I know we're going to talk about in a little bit, but I may just, like, I may just poke at it now is I work with great hosts who do like a ton of research on their guests and they are going to cherry pick the really cool parts of a person, person's background and ask them about that going through their career, going through. There's only so much you can find out about a person online without actually having to ask them up front. But if you can cherry pick two or three things, that's kind of how you can balance like, okay, let's get the listener comfortable with who this person is and how their, you know, career up until this point has affected their thinking and what they're, what we're going to talk about in the conversation today. Because there are times where that stuff is really important. This person had, you know, 15 year career in investment banking before they pivoted into, you know, private wealth management, stuff like that. So there is a balancing act.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's right. Jag. I'm going to get to you in one sec. But before I forget, the tell me about you thing is, I agree, Matt. It's a rudderless ship. It's like you're a podcaster. You're not doing anything here. Framing the issues, setting the stage for what I'm supposed to talk about. On the other hand, you do want to ask open ended questions. I always think you need to know enough, but not too much. And Johnny, I think it's great to do research and find out. You know, it says here, Ms. Aspiring Actress, you appeared on an episode of Sesame Street. And if not everybody knows that, then that's kind of cool. Like, oh my God, I can't believe you knew that. Yeah, when I was 12, blah, blah, blah. So that stuff is good. But. But on the other hand, I think we'll all agree to this. One of the faux pas as podcaster can make is coming up with the list of 15 rock solid questions that you just love so much so that after you ask the first question, you start looking down at the second question and getting ready to hit them with that second question. And now you're listening to the answer to the first question, which could have merited several.

[C]

You're not listening, you're waiting.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Huge.

[B]

But Jack, you had something. I'm sorry.

[A]

Quick, quick side note. When I was in radio, one thing I'd always ask artists when I interviewed them, I'd find the wackiest thing on their Wikipedia page and ask them if it was true. But I will say I get much more nervous as a guest than as a host. I'm in control when I'm the host. An example would be the podcast I did for my College Radio station's 50th anniversary. I love doing it. One of my close, close friends interviewed me as the guest. They wanted to feature me in an episode and I just vomited my entire life story to him. I felt so bad. I steamrolled him because I felt I wanted to get every radio station I worked at and every story in and my whole story in. And we were done. And I'm like, I was a terrible guest. So a little direction from the host can be good because I felt terrible for my friend because I was so hell bent on telling my entire life story, I didn't give much chance to jump in. And I regret that to this day.

[D]

Well, they should have been editing better.

[A]

I edited that's the problem. I had a trouble editing my own story. I'm like, well, I like, I'm partial of that story and I like that

[D]

story too, but that's uncomfortable. That's hard editing yourself.

[B]

It is like that.

[A]

I should have had, in hindsight, I should have had somebody else edited.

[D]

Have you not gotten somebody else to edit your stuff yet? We told you years ago to do that.

[A]

It's a work in progress.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Actually have a call this week.

[D]

Okay, good.

[B]

So we, so this is. We might spend just a minute or two more time on prepping. Prepping for a guest, but also prepping a guest for. I'll just say my two cents real quick off the top and that's that I've kind of already clued you in. I, I like to know enough about the guest to be able to ask good questions and converse with them, but I don't necessarily need to know everything about the guests because I want their story to unfold and I want to be curious and maybe explore places. And the story I always tell is I had, I produced a podcast with a wedding planner and the guest was a personal trainer who was talking about how to lose weight for your wedding, whatever. But she was doing these icebreaker questions and she said, what's your favorite cocktail? And he said, oh, I'm not much of a drinker. I have a gin and tonic now and again. But yeah, I never drank. I haven't drank too much since college, but that's another story. And, and to her credit, she was listening and she didn't care that we're in the middle of a rapid fire icebreaker session. You just said. And she said, well, this is a podcast. We got time. Tell me the story. And he told this story about how an incident at college involving him drinking had caused him to lose a job that he had set up after school. And it was the most compelling part of the podcast. So the couple little tidbits for me, but in terms of prepping yourself or prepping the guests, anybody else have further thoughts? Johnny, you get some? You?

[C]

No, I do, but I was going to go in a different direction, which is, you know, the question is phrased as prepping them from a content standpoint. I think about it as prepping them from a production standpoint.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

So with every, with every show that I work with, most of the interviews are going to be done remotely. So there is a checklist of. These are the things you need to make sure are in order. This browser tab on Riverside is the only tab you're going to have open. Please bring headphones. We have shipped you a microphone. Here is a breakdown of how to plug that in and get that set up. Make sure that you're in a quiet room, turn off your air conditioner, turn, put your phone on, do not disturb, quit out of slack, Outlook, your email. Anything that goes ding is going to get picked up on the podcast. By the way, that microphone is mounted on your desk. Please avoid, please avoid from typing or tapping on your desk while we're doing this. And then I also reiterate that in person right before we record, let them know I'm editing this entire, entire thing. Me. Not someone in India, not someone in the Philippines. I'm editing this. You have nothing to worry about. We're not live streaming this. Please take your time. If you need to redo an answer, do that. Just get that guest comfortable. That is the best approach from a production standpoint. Outside of that. Hosts doing research. I have hosts that pay people to do research on guests and get a lot of. I think, I think there's a healthy balance between going in cold and not knowing anything and knowing way too much. You need to play somewhere in the middle. You need to know enough to be dangerous and keep the conversation moving, but don't know so much that you are, you are leading the conversation too much. Where you miss those stories. Like David just said about the, the drinking and the alcohol thing, you. There's a, again, there's a balancing act to all of this.

[A]

I want a bold underline, italicize something Johnny just said and that is emphasizing to the guest, we're not live recorded. And for your host as well, if you're, if you're producing or editing the feedback that I have gotten. The best piece of feedback that I've gotten from my clients has been jag. You make us very comfortable. When recording the podcast. I show up, I don't have to worry about in the tech. I know you're gonna take care of it. I know it's not live. I know if I flub a line I can redo it. And my guest knows that too. And you making me, the host and the guest comfortable led to a much more at ease conversation. So Johnny, I'm starring and highlighting and circling what you just said because it is, is so, so important to make your guest feel comfortable, especially from the tech side and knowing they're not live and knowing that you can go back and hey, if you don't like the way that came out, start the sentence over. It never happened. No no, no pressure.

[B]

It's a good reminder to us and to all podcasters that your guests might be nervous. They might not, but they might be nervous. You're on podcast number 75 or 175 or whatever it is, and you're like, all right, we're going to start to roll. I'm going to hit record. The guest. This might be their first podcast. A lot of the guests we deal with, it seems like many of them say, oh, this is my first podcast. And so I think that's. That's good advice. I always say, yes, we're not live. It's recorded. I once had a guest, after we finished up a whole interview, she said, oh, I can't wait to talk to my mom. She's going to tell me how I did. And I go, what do you mean? And I said, well, I told my mom to tune in. I said, oh, your mom hasn't heard this yet, because it's not. It hasn't been posted yet. That's not how podcasts work. So lesson learned for me.

[A]

And if she's like my mom, she'll tell you everything you did wrong. Oh, sorry. Outside thought.

[B]

Matt, you got anything on this?

[D]

It's amazing what happens when I tell the guest anything. If you don't like the way your answer came out, just start it again. I'll cut it. And from that moment forward, they're comfortable and we're.

[C]

It never happens either. They never say, like, 95% of the time, there isn't that, oh, let me start that over again. Like, it. It almost never happens. Happens.

[B]

Yeah, it. Probably because you say that, it sets them at ease. So they don't. And, you know, sometimes I say. I say that. I say on the. I said, if you need to start over, start. On the other hand, don't worry about being perfect. We're trying to emulate a real conversation here. Yeah, conversation. Don't think of it as like a Barbara Walters kind of interview. And then the only other thing I say at the beginning to prep the guest in. In the moment before we start recording is. I don't know, is at the end, the host is going to say goodbye to the listeners. If you would stay on the call for a moment afterwards in case we need to debrief. Because I've had so many guests that as soon as the closing, I, you know, I'll play the music at the end and it stops, and then they drop off and you don't have a chance to. And that's. That's.

[C]

Hey, thanks for Doing this.

[B]

Yeah, thanks for doing it. And here's when it's going to come out. And if you could share it with your audience, we'd be great.

[A]

And if you're remote, it gives them time to upload their audio, if their audio and video hasn't finished uploading.

[C]

I think there's another small wrinkle in this too, David, which is promotion. So oftentimes, you know, I, I've said this before. I think the television book tour is gone. The podcast book tour, the podcast movie tour, the podcast whatever tour is the new norm. You release a product of something and you're going to do a podcast tour to promote it. So from the host perspective, you already know that this person is coming on, they've got a new book coming out. Eventually we're going to discuss that. I think it's appropriate to kind of lay the ground rules at the beginning to be like, hey, by the way, like, we are here to promote your book, but I don't want this to be a 45 minute ad for the book. So trust me, we will either move it from the back to the front or we will get to it. When we get to it, we will find that place. Naturally, we are going to promo your stuff. I'm going to give you the air time to talk about it.

[D]

It.

[C]

But that is not the sole reason why you're here. This is going to be a fantastic episode and just kind of get that out in the open and make sure you guys are both on the same page. So, like, your first question isn't, hey, like, you know, how's the last year been for you? Well, the new book is out, so that's great. And you're immediately talking about it. So I think there's, there's a wrinkle in there.

[B]

Yeah, I had a guest once that was a, I think it was a trust in the States lawyer. And he said he had an innovative way of dealing with clients. And so, so I didn't do much prep on him and I said, go ahead, tell me about this innovative way. And he said, okay, well, the first thing I do is this. And I sounded like I was getting the most boring TED talk in history. And I swear he went on for 20 minutes about his method, like he had it memorized practically. And I tried to interrupt him a couple times and it didn't work. And then I said thank you and got off the call and did not post that podcast. Can you believe it? Thank goodness I never heard from him again.

[A]

That's a really good question. That while. That you. As a topic. Have you been in a situation where you didn't publish an episode or you had a guess that either their technical quality was awful or their content was bad enough? And how did you handle that? Did you cross your fingers and hope they didn't follow up with you and ask where I can find my episode? How do you handle that?

[B]

What's your answer, Jack? Do you have one off since you post it?

[A]

No, I don't. I'm gonna throw it at you.

[C]

I. I have one.

[B]

Johnny.

[C]

There's a couple different routes you can go. I would say the most appropriate route is, I think you just have to have the cojones to say, like, hey, this wasn't very good. This wasn't a. This. You know, we both tried our best. I failed in my prep. I wasn't as engaged in the episode, and I apologize for that. I think that we should revisit this in about six months and try again and. And re. Record.

[B]

That's. That you do. But you have to make good on that, right?

[C]

Yes, that's. You do have to make good on that. That rarely happens. Most people will just blame it on, oh, we had a technical difficulty, something happened, something like that, where some kind of excuse to get out of it. I think what it comes down to is the outside of, like, technical. Actual technical issues. The reason you wouldn't post an episode is you have to treat your audience with a certain level of respect, and you should try to make every episode as good as it can be. Not every guest is the same. Not every guest is a double A plus player, but there are episodes where you're going to be 15 or 20 minutes into recording, where you're just going, this just isn't very good. And you have to have enough respect for your audience to go for their benefit. I'm not going to put this out, even if it risks making things awkward with the guests, because I want my catalog to be incredible forever, and I don't want to poison it with a shit episode just because I'm too scared to tell this person that it wasn't very good.

[B]

Yeah, Nat, have you ever had one?

[D]

Yeah. Shout out to Jeremy White from Q92, the Beat in Montreal, who was. Had a very messy departure from the radio station and was on my podcast the week after, and he did not hold back. But then he called me a week later and say, hey, could you hold the episode back? Because there's gonna be a lawsuit at this point, and if I didn't publish it and it May never see the light of day, but, boy, he was on fire.

[B]

That's too bad. On the other hand, it's a good. It's a good lesson because we take our jobs very seriously. But at. At the end of the day, this is podcasting, and, you know, most of the people we work with don't have audiences in the hundreds of thousands. That doesn't diminish the importance of it. Nevertheless, I don't think we should be so proud as to say, nope, I interviewed you. I'm putting it on. I'm putting it on the site. I'm making it live.

[C]

Yeah, you have to respect the guests wishes to some extent. Maybe you edit it down, but I mean, Matt, God, can you imagine the clicks that you would have gotten, you know, had you put that out?

[D]

Well, he. He came back on in a. In a. In a quieter fashion about six months later, and we. It was still the number one download for the year because at which point he. He's just. He's a fiery guy.

[C]

Check out the Matt Cundell patreon if you want the real. Why should Mr. White.

[D]

There was. There was. I did have a. A guest who. Shy, which is funny because they've been on the radio for 40 years doing middays, and said, I don't know if I want this episode out. And I said, well, tell you what.

[B]

What?

[D]

Why don't you let me work at it real hard and give me a chance and give me till May, two months, and I'll send it to you and you let me know what you think. And I thought that was a fair way just to talk them off the ledge.

[B]

And what was their reaction when they listened to it?

[D]

Yeah, yeah, go ahead. It's great.

[B]

I think most people in the moment think they're doing terribly and then listen to it afterwards and say, I have that experience personally when I'm hosting or whatever I'm doing. Like, it was really off that day. I should have had another cup of coffee or something and then go back and listen to it. I go, hey, you know what? It wasn't that bad. On the other hand, there are many times when I'm like, dave, why aren't you asking the most obvious question in the world that is right in front of you? Jag, Johnny, any further thoughts on this? No, let's. We've got less than 10 minutes here. But you're singing to the audience.

[D]

Don't mention that the audience will start to leave, that we're. Stop that.

[A]

We're not paying attention. Dave.

[D]

Edit.

[B]

Cut, cut. Rules. Well, we have an incredible recurring segment at the very end of the show, listeners that you don't want to miss. But let's talk about interviewing generally, because it is. It's what we're talking is the meat and potatoes of most of the podcasts we're talking about. And so let's talk about just mistakes podcasters make in the course of interviewing a guest or really great devices. We already heard a couple, but I'll throw out a couple mistakes to get the gang warmed up here. And that is, I've mentioned one already, is it's amazing how many podcasts I hear where the music sounds slick and then if it's video, the graphic looks slick and the host comes on and says, welcome to the show. So great to be here on a rainy Tuesday, but I've got a great guest and Bill, how you doing? So right away, I don't know the name. I mean, I probably know the name of the show because I clicked on it. I might know the name of the host, but I might not. I might know, and I don't know the name of the guest. I don't know freaking anything. And I've heard a lot of podcasts like that. And just as a sort of cousin to that, that it's also distasteful to me that, yes, podcasts are niche. So if you're doing a podcast about ceramics or about Star Trek or whatever it is, there are certain things that only those listeners are going to know. But on the other hand, make sure people know what you're talking about. It's bad enough to be boring or terrible, but to be unclear, it's a pet peeve of mine. So, for example, if you have a guest on and guest is talking about philosophy or something and says, well, you know, and then in. In 2006, I read. I read that book by Bill Winkoff. And of course, after I read Bill Winkoff, you can imagine. And hosts don't just say, yeah, huh, huh. As a host, you got to step in and say, who's Bill Winkoff? I have no idea who you're talking about. You don't want to say it like that, that. But I've had listen to many podcasts where. And sometimes it's the sort of, you know, I hate to say it, but almost locker room mentality of three dudes talking. And they're some of the pods I listen to and they're making some joke and they're all laughing about it. And I was like, I have no idea what they're laughing About. Anyway, that's my little rant. But I'll open the floor for other pros and cons, interviewing styles or things that hosts do. This jag, you look like you're ready.

[A]

Well, I want to see Matt up.

[C]

He's grabbing his mic. He was so ready.

[A]

Matt can help me out with the details on this. I think he remembers this better than I do. The podcast movement in Philadelphia in 2018 was the first one I went to. Terry Gross from NPR was talking about an interview she did with Hillary Clinton. Matt, can you fill in the gaps in that story? Because this is a great example.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. And so I was going to mention, in fact, it came to my mind too, is listening back to your guest. So you've got your questions and David, you were talking about. I've got my list of questions and I'm going to bang them off 1 through 15, and we're going to get through them. But Terry Gross was not listening to a senator in the south who, who dropped in a few anti Semitic comments.

[B]

Oh, boy.

[D]

And then, you know. But then another 20 seconds went by and she said, whoa, wait, excuse me, back up. Did you say. And in that. And she played the clip for everyone. And, and she was not paying attention. And so it's really, really important to listen to, to what your guest is saying.

[A]

I thought she had a difference. I'm thinking of a different story that she told about interviewing Hillary Clinton. And she was thinking about getting her groceries on the way home. As we all, as we all do, our mind wanders. Oh, what am I going to do the rest of the afternoon? And she just barely in her subconscious caught something newsworthy that a then presidential candidate had said. I'm sorry, could you go back? Could you repeat what you said there? It's okay to ask somebody to repeat something if your mind wanders. We're all human. We can do that, that. But, you know, it's the whole two ears, one mouth thing, you know, really pay attention because chances are the guest is going to give you something better than you've got lined up on your question sheet.

[D]

Yeah. And I also think it's important to listen because I might have questions 1 through 15 already written out, but something that you say and the way you answer in question three is now going to change. 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, right through to the end of the episode.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It might change the whole rest of the episode. Yeah.

[D]

So if you're interviewing be listening thing.

[C]

David, can, can we role play for a second?

[B]

Yes, sure.

[C]

Okay. So David, I'm going to interview you for the next 30 seconds, and I will demonstrate a problem in interviewing. Okay. David, welcome to the show. I understand that you're the host of a phenomenally popular music podcast. You mind just explaining in 30 seconds what that show is?

[B]

Oh, sure. Yeah. Well, you're overstating it a little bit, but the. The. The. The podcast is called past 10. A top 10 time machine.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And it's a music nostalgia, really. Oh, oh.

[A]

We

[B]

don't need the whole 30 seconds. But that was great. Oh, that's so true.

[C]

So there's a. I keep. I can make my middle name Johnny. Balancing act. There is a balancing act that you need to have of. Of showing the person that you're speaking to that you are listening to them. Eye contact is the best way. Remain silent while they're talking unless they just say something so unbelievable that you have to vocally react. But. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that. That is. It's just unuseful. It's. I can't cut it out in post unless they're doing it remote. And every time that I. I always do. If it's recorded remotely, I can't tell you how many times. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, oh, oh. Just.

[C]

This stuff is.

[D]

Just.

[C]

Doesn't matter. We. I want to hear what the other person is saying from the listener's perspective. I don't need to hear you chiming along.

[B]

Yeah. Balancing act is what?

[A]

Because you.

[B]

Absolutely. You in fact want some of that. Because it's the pattern, it's the rhythm of a conversation. But what you were just doing to me was like Chinese water torture. I was. I was dying there. Jag. You had something?

[A]

No, I was gonna say, I think I've had this conversation with five clients who have been new clients lately, because you're. Again, I'm underlining, bolding something Johnny's saying. Where it is good customer service in a face to face conversation. To acknowledge what somebody's saying, to nod, to say. Yeah, oh, yeah, I see what you're saying. It is torture, to your point, Dave, in a podcast. So you can leave a few in there to, you know the rhythm of the conversation. Especially if the. If the guest really has a good point and then pauses. You can have that reaction once every, you know, couple of minutes or so. But I've had clients when they start out and. Yep. Huh? Yeah. Every 30 seconds. Johnny gave the extreme example there with Dave, but it is so true. Better to stay silent than to. And especially. Especially if you're remote and your guest or your host does not have headphones and you've got echo cancellation on as a as because you have to that when they're talking over the guest saying, yep, huh, it'll cause distortion. So really hang back, especially if you're not wearing headphones and have echo cancellation going on.

[D]

I just want to, I just want to say hi to Danny Brown, who's been on this show before, who started before Johnny started the bit, pretty much weighed in and said, and I've got this up on the screen. I feel one of the best things podcast hosts can do if they have a chat or interview show is like you say, practice the art of listening and how to hold silence. Thank you, Danny.

[B]

So important. One of the first podcasts I ever did, I did, did so many things wrong, but I remember the first thing I ever did right as a podcast host. I was interviewing a guy named David Mills, who was the first openly gay appellate court judge in Massachusetts. And he was just a very sweet guy, but he was kind of telling his story to me. He was talking about how when he was at Boston College, it was Catholic school and not necessarily accepting of homosexuals in those days. And he started telling a story and at one point he paused and I could tell his voice was cracking. And something in me for some reason said, dave, shut the hell up. Just let him answer the question. Don't say, oh, it's okay, judge, it's okay, or whatever. Just let the moment breathe. And sometimes that is the best thing to do and not, uh huh and yum, yeah, and hum. Everything Johnny was doing, I'm not doing.

[C]

And I think the most popular example of that from like a major podcast that we've seen was, and I saw clips of it going viral, was one of the times Elon was on Joe Rogan's podcast where Joe asked him something like really deep and most people would cut this. But it was 25 seconds of silence where Elon was sitting there thinking about what he was going to say. And it made the moment so much more impactful of whatever it was. I don't even remember what the, what the answer was. I just remember it was 25 seconds of him pondering and deciding what he was going to say.

[A]

I wonder, I wonder if there's a, a trade off there if you're doing video or audio there, where in an audio podcast you might have, you might shorten that because you might think like set out or something. Yeah, exactly. Where it still makes the point. But if you're, if you're focused for your Podcast as video. Then, yeah, maybe if. If Elon's sitting there and, you know, some of his body language is like, yeah, yeah.

[B]

When Rudy Giuliani fumbled through his notes for about 37 seconds on his TV show recently. Compelling, compelling stuff. So we're just about up against the clock here. Does anyone have any. Any final tips that kind of still had loaded that they want to fire away or. Or do we want to wrap this up?

[D]

Guys, I wanted to mention one thing about. I think we were going to talk about structure and spontaneity. And something that I'm about to put the podcast out in a few hours is with Don Chubay, who's a TV personality from Vancouver. And one of the things that came up in our conversation was that if you want to have spontaneity, be prepped, do the prep for your show. And the more prepped you are, the more confident you're going to be. And then you're going to have those moments of spontaneity. And if you're not prepped for your show, you're probably not going to want to be spontaneous. At the risk of feeling foolish.

[B]

Yeah, don't be like Kathy Lee Gifford interviewing Martin Short when she asked him a few questions about his wife. And how is she doing, not realizing she had died from cancer like a year earlier. Oh, it was tough. Yeah, you can do everybody.

[A]

My last piece of advice is we've talked a lot about content today. The technical aspect. If your podcast doesn't have good audio quality, it's not relevant. It needs to have good audio quality. Johnny's analogy he made probably close to a year ago now about audio is your shoes and video is your socks. I've cited that approximately a thousand times and credited you every time, Johnny, in the last year. But if your show is not listenable, forget it. Unless you have, you know, God himself on the show with you. The audio quality is not there. Forget it.

[C]

God would have incredible audio quality. We wouldn't have to worry about it.

[A]

Picturing Morgan Freeman's voice in my head right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And my no good.

[B]

No, you go, John.

[C]

My final piece of advice would be for the interviewing aspect. The best way to get better at being a podcast interviewer is to interview people on your podcast. Do episodes. Keep going, make the mistakes. You will find out what works for you, and you will get better over time. You do not have to take a class. Doing the podcast is the class.

[B]

I think you're right because there is unpredictable and there's things you're going to notice. That you haven't like eight months down the road. You need to get in the batting cage and do the reps for sure. Terrific stuff, guys. Per usual, we'll go back around the bend to say farewell. Jag Would you like to sign off first? Please.

[A]

John Gay, JAG Podcast Productions. You can find me on social at JAG Podcast Productions as well as Jag podcast productions.com Matt Matt Kundle from the

[D]

Soundoff Media Network, Cadell, Quebec, Canada Johnny

[C]

please subscribe to this show on YouTube, follow it on Apple or Spotify or wherever the podcast is available. And if you're interested in more of my stuff, you can check out johnnypodcasts.com

[B]

thank you Johnny, because I was going to fumble over the proper close for this show, but you did it for me. All the Super Friends we miss you, Katherine. We'll see you next time on the Super Friends. Thanks so much for listening Super Friends out. We'll see you next time.

[A]

Thanks for listening. For show notes, transcripts and the video version of this episode, check out the podcast super [e-mail]

[D]

the world of audio is evolving fast, so much so that it often means video as well. These days, staying ahead isn't an advantage, it is a necessity. I'm Matt Kundal, and every week on the Sound Off Podcast, I speak with the people shaping the future of podcast, broadcast and audio. Whether you're behind the mic, in the production studio, or in the boardroom, this is your weekly look into the trends, talent and tech driving audio forward. The Soundoff Podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, [e-mail].