The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Episode: A Master Class with David Grann
Host: David Remnick
Guest: David Grann
Date: September 11, 2023
Episode Overview
In this episode, David Remnick sits down with acclaimed nonfiction writer and New Yorker staffer David Grann to discuss his writing journey, unique narrative process, and the deeper themes underlying his celebrated works such as Killers of the Flower Moon and The Wager. The conversation offers a rich “master class” in nonfiction storytelling—covering Grann’s obsession with archival research, the importance of letting stories unfold naturally, and how his narratives illuminate broader political and historical truths. The episode also touches on the translation of his books to film and his thoughts on longevity in a demanding writing career.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Grann’s Path to Narrative Nonfiction
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Initial Career and Hesitation
- Started in political reporting, despite disliking the constraints of standard political journalism.
- David Grann: “I was always thought of as this political person and gotta cover campaigns…You need to love it so much to be able to penetrate the veil of consultancy and political speak… I didn’t love it enough to want to spend all that time getting through press secretaries and consultants.” (04:13 – 04:48)
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Breakthrough via Unconventional Stories
- Sought “eccentric topics” rather than profiles of famous figures.
- First notable New Yorker feature was “The Old Man & the Gun” about a septuagenarian bank robber and escape artist.
- Emphasized the power of finding “unvarnished” voices through archival materials.
2. Uncovering Authenticity Through Reporting
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Penetrating the Veils of Fame and Politics
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Grann explains the challenge of genuine profiles in today’s media landscape:
“It’s become, if not impossible, but then impossibly difficult to write about anybody in American public life today who has a measure of fame…” (07:07 – 07:35)
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Relates how obscure circumstances can produce more honest stories, citing his feature on baseball legend Rickey Henderson striving for a comeback in obscurity.
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The Power of Observation and Archives
- Emphasizes spending extended time with subjects—being a “Joan Didion of a reporter.”
- Discovers the richness of “real unvarnished voices” by digging into overlooked archival documents.
3. Writing Process & Lessons Learned
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Methodology: Excavating, Not Inventing
- Grann likens storytelling to excavation rather than invention:
“The most profound revelation I had was… you are an excavator. You aren’t imagining the story, you are excavating the story.” (10:07 – 10:41)
- Grann likens storytelling to excavation rather than invention:
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Letting Stories Emerge Unexpectedly
- Tells an anecdote about chasing a “giant squid” story in New Zealand, where the narrative shifted from a triumphant scientific quest to an obsession ending in loss and emotional anguish.
- Key insight: Unexpected outcomes are often what make the story compelling.
“It was such a profound experience to realize to always keep your eyes open to the stories you don't know how many of these stories, when they're unfolding in real time, are going to end.” (16:07 – 16:44)
4. The Discipline of Immersion
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Going Beyond the Page: Research and Experience
- For The Wager, Grann undertook a perilous journey to Wager Island off Chile, mirroring the hardships of his 18th-century subjects.
- Chooses to largely omit his own adventures from the narrative, to keep focus on the historical story:
“I don’t describe my own trip in the book… it felt distracting… and yet that trip did breathe life into my descriptions…” (24:44 – 25:01)
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Motivation: Bringing Historical Reality to Life
- Fieldwork helps Grann discern the truth of historical accounts and convey them more vividly and credibly.
5. Political and Historical Meaning in Grann’s Work
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Stories as Vehicles for Larger Truths
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Grann seeks projects with resonance beyond their specific plots:
“You really want it to illuminate something larger and tell you something larger about the world in which we live and where we come from.” (25:58 – 26:12)
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The Wager—though an 18th-century shipwreck—mirrors contemporary battles over truth, narrative control, and historical memory (e.g., disinformation, who gets to tell history).
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Contemporary Relevance
- Draws direct parallels between his archival research and current struggles over fake news, “alternate facts,” and historical revisionism.
- Notable Quote:
“We're living in a post truth world right now with people screaming about alternate facts and fake news… and they're having a battle over history… who would get to tell the history?” (27:12 – 28:00)
6. From Page to Screen: Letting Go of Control
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Differences Between Writing Books and Film Adaptations
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Grann reflects on the transition from author to “resource” for filmmakers:
“Usually your role is as a resource… just a historical resource or archival resource… Some actors want to draw on you more in their methodologies… but you have to let go.” (29:54 – 30:37)
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Shares how Scorsese and DiCaprio engaged with his materials deeply for Killers of the Flower Moon, collaborating closely with the Osage Nation to bring authenticity.
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On the Importance of Respecting the Story’s Subjects
- The most important outcome is not personal recognition, but faithful and powerful representation of the communities and histories involved.
7. The Writer’s Longevity and Self-Discovery
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Endurance and the Challenge of Writing
- Writing never gets easier for Grann; maintaining stamina across exhaustive projects is the biggest challenge.
- “I’m happy to keep doing what I’m doing. It’s just a level of kind of stamina.” (33:09 – 33:43)
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Self-Knowledge Through Reporting
- Reporting is a process of learning about others—and about oneself:
“When you report, you’re not only reporting about others, you’re actually learning about yourself, and you often don’t.” (33:57 – 34:26)
- Reporting is a process of learning about others—and about oneself:
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
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On seeking unique stories:
“I was terrified to do so. So it took me about 10 years to work up the courage to pitch a story.”
—David Grann (02:32) -
On the power of archives:
“This transcript was just sitting around gathering dust in some box. Probably no one had looked at it for 25 years. And I was just astonished by what it said.”
—David Grann (06:30) -
On the unpredictability of reporting:
“It was only later that it dawned on me… That was the story. I was staring right at it, and I swear to God, I could not even see it.”
—David Grann (16:13) -
On meaning in narrative nonfiction:
“You really want it to illuminate something larger and tell you something larger about the world in which we live and where we come from.”
—David Grann (26:12) -
On letting go in film adaptations:
“I try my best, and I have been incredibly fortunate to get in the hands of people who actually know what they’re doing. I have no idea how to make a film, and I don’t pretend to know how to make a film.”
—David Grann (31:00)
Timestamps for Key Segments
- Introduction and Grann’s Breakthrough — 01:27 – 03:15
- Grann’s Early Career & Reporting Philosophy — 03:49 – 07:07
- Challenges of Profiling Famous Subjects — 07:07 – 08:50
- Reporting on Rickey Henderson — 08:50 – 09:50
- Nonfiction Writing Influences & Methods — 10:07 – 13:24
- The Giant Squid Hunt: Letting Go of Control — 13:24 – 16:44
- On Research Trips & Immersion for The Wager — 17:45 – 25:12
- Historical Themes and Contemporary Parallels — 25:14 – 28:42
- Books Becoming Films: The Author’s Role — 28:42 – 32:59
- Writer’s Longevity & Self-Discovery — 33:01 – 34:40
Tone and Language
The episode is imbued with Grann’s humility, self-deprecating humor, and intellectual curiosity. The conversation is candid, warm, and filled with practical wisdom, balancing both the struggles and joys of narrative nonfiction.
For Listeners
This episode offers a rich behind-the-scenes look at one of the leading nonfiction storytellers of today. It’s a must-listen (or read) for writers, journalists, and anyone interested in how the search for truth, meaning, and history can resonate in vivid, consequential ways across both page and screen.