A Member of the “Seditious Six” on Reviving the Democratic Party

Summary

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The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: "A Member of the 'Seditious Six' on Reviving the Democratic Party"

Original Air Date: May 16, 2026
Hosts: Susan Glasser, Jane Mayer, Evan Osnos
Featured Guest: Rep. Jason Crow (D-CO), Army Ranger veteran, House Intelligence and Armed Services Committees

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the Democratic Party’s challenges and opportunities heading into the turbulent 2026 midterms. The discussion is shaped by the presence of Congressman Jason Crow, a member of the so-called “seditious six”—Democratic lawmakers who urged military personnel not to follow illegal orders, provoking the ire of President Trump and his allies. The panel dissects the Democrats’ identity crisis, the party’s messaging struggles after the defeat in 2024, and whether they can seize the moment against a vulnerable Republican Party presided over by a divisive Trump administration.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Political Landscape for Democrats

• Midterms Outlook: Democrats believe the GOP is losing ground due to economic anxiety, unresolved war in Iran, and internal GOP turbulence, but the Democrats remain fractured and uncertain about their core message.
  • Glasser sets the scene: "Democrats are headed into the 2026 midterms with...the well founded belief that Donald Trump and his Republican Party are politically vulnerable...And yet they're also confronting...vulnerabilities of their own party, still searching for its message after the defeat of 2024, still divided over its identity." (04:13)

2. The "Seditious Six" and Trump’s Response

• National Notoriety: Crow and five Democratic colleagues garnered attention—and threats of prosecution—from Trump and allies for their video reminding service members not to obey illegal orders.
  • Jane Mayer notes: "I think it's made them seem heroic for...saying, you don't need to follow illegal orders...Trump and Hagseth went after them...makes them look like they're the ones who are violating norms." (06:22)

3. Trump on the World Stage and Domestic Anxiety

• Trump’s Diplomatic Distractions: Reporting from Beijing, Osnos describes Trump’s strategy of seeking refuge in foreign policy, surprising even the Chinese.
  • Osnos comments: "Even Chinese observers...were saying, is he really gonna come? ...this is a summit that is high on pageantry and relatively modest in...substantive gains." (07:27; 08:20)

4. Economic Anxiety as the Battleground

• Campaign Material: Trump’s purported indifference to Americans’ economic struggles is highlighted as a potential campaign weapon.
  • Glasser editorializes: "How many Democratic campaign ads this year are going to feature that line about 'I don't think about Americans' financial situation'?" (10:30)
  • Crow answers: "Probably a lot. ...The man's routinely discounts the suffering of the American people." (10:39)

5. Reviving the Working-Class Brand

• Demographics and Messaging: Despite Republican control, Crow argues Democrats have allowed their brand to become associated with distant elites, while Trump, paradoxically, projects a working-class image—even as he surrounds himself with billionaires.
  • Crow insight: "I do put a lot of blame...on the Democratic Party for allowing that to happen. ...We need to be honest with people that we have fallen short...unless we come out and very explicitly say, hey, we've fallen short...we won't have legitimacy." (13:29)
  • Crow on strategy:
    • Admit failures and show humility
    • Listen and connect through empathy
    • Relentlessly focus on local, district-specific issues
    • Reintroduce the party’s values by “showing up” in neglected areas

6. Culture Wars and Local vs. National Messaging

• Challenges to Local Focus: Jane Mayer and Glasser note the increasing difficulty of keeping campaigns local as national and international issues, especially regarding Israel and Palestine, permeate battleground districts and primaries.
  • Crow’s real talk: "It's never been harder...redistricting...polarizing even more...deep structural threat to our democracy with the influence of technology. And AI is going to supercharge that...But we have to figure that out. Giving up is not an option for me." (19:13)

7. Recruiting and the Dangers of Leadership

• Candidate Pipeline: Crow emphasizes how difficult it is to convince talented, grounded people to take on the sacrifices and dangers of running for office in today’s hostile environment yet notes that people are still “stepping up in droves.”
  • Crow on candidate realities: “...telling them to quit their job and tap into their savings and spend half their time away from their family and be subjected to death threats...is a hard case to make. But...people are stepping up.” (20:38)

8. Party Leadership and the Need for Generational Transition

• Chuck Schumer's Durability: Crow affirms the reality of generational and ideological pressure on Democratic leaders and the need for new faces—while avoiding ageism and focusing on energy and capacity.
  • Crow reflects: "Political power is never given away...You have to take it, and you take it by finding tough fighters...and earn it." (21:27)

9. The Trump Threat and Tactics for the Midterms

• Existential Stakes: Crow is blunt: Trump is an existential threat to American democracy, but the campaign must tie that reality to local, tangible issues—especially corruption and wasteful spending.
  • Crow draws the connection: “Corruption...is theft from my constituents. ...The money that should be in their pockets...is going to the Billion Dollar Ballroom...golf course at Andrews Air Force Base...I'm never going to apologize for going after money and going after corruption that's stealing from my constituents.” (22:59; 23:54)

10. On Illegal Orders and War Powers

• Personal Experience: Crow recounts his Iraq War experience and explains the rationale for warning service members about illegal orders—linking military values to American democratic principles.
  • Crow recounts leadership pre-Iraq deployment, showing Platoon and discussing moral collapse: “You have to make really tough calls...I led them in a discussion about how that happened. ...How do you lose sight with your humanity, you lose your grounding...?” (28:30)
• Loss of American Moral Standing: Both Crow and the hosts warn about the normalization of lawless conduct and the erosion of America’s example on the world stage.
  • Crow on loss of standards: “All of this will become normal, that we'll have a generation of Americans that will grow up thinking that this is normal and this is the way we should conduct ourselves, that we'll lose our moral clarity...” (32:49)

11. Foreign Policy, Pete Hegseth, and Congressional Authority

• Sharp Critique: Crow blasts the Trump administration and Secretary of War Pete Hegseth for military adventurism, lack of congressional approval, and disregard for working-class Americans who bear the burdens of war.
  • Crow’s pointed critique: “We've bombed seven different countries in a little over a year...It's regular Americans that actually pay their taxes and paid for the five to eight trillion dollars we've spent. ...I came to Congress in large part because I was pretty angry with that cycle of conflict and how disproportionate the burden was...” (35:33)
• War in Iran: Crow emphasizes the urgency of restoring Congressional war powers to end endless conflict, arguing that repeated votes and local accountability will change the calculus.
  • Crow’s adamance: “I don't care how many votes it takes, I'll put a vote on the floor every week. ...today is a good day to do the right thing.” (37:48)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Democrats’ Opportunity and Failure
  "We have to be honest with people that we have fallen short. ...Unless we come out and very explicitly say, hey, we've fallen short, ...we won't have legitimacy."
  — Rep. Jason Crow (13:29)

• On the Trump Administration’s Threat
  "He is assaulting every element of our democracy. ...We should be willing to tackle corruption. ...Corruption...is theft from my constituents."
  — Rep. Jason Crow (22:59)

• On Standing Up to Illegal Orders
  "What we say is what the Uniform Code of Military justice teaches. ...This is part of what military life is about."
  — Rep. Jason Crow (28:30)

• On Recruiting Candidates in a Hostile Era
  "Telling them to quit their job and tap into their savings and spend half their time away from their family and be subjected to death threats...is a hard case to make. But...people are stepping up."
  — Rep. Jason Crow (20:38)

• On American Moral Standing
  "All of this will become normal, that we'll have a generation of Americans that will grow up thinking that this is normal..."
  — Rep. Jason Crow (32:49)

• Jane Mayer on populist scripts:
  "It seems to me that they're stealing each other's script. ...The Republicans stole the populist working class script from the Democratic Party and now the Democrats are trying to steal the values voters back from the Republicans..." (45:23)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Democrats’ vulnerabilities and introducing Jason Crow (04:13–06:22)
• Importance and risks of the “Seditious Six” stand (06:22–06:58)
• Trump’s risky diplomatic overture in China (07:27–08:20)
• Crow on economic anxiety and campaign messaging (10:39–13:29)
• The “working class party” perception dilemma (13:29–15:39)
• Hyperlocal campaigning and challenges of the national culture war (16:34–19:13)
• Difficulties recruiting strong new candidates (20:38–21:08)
• Crow on generational change and leadership (21:27)
• Existential threat posed by Trump, linking local corruption (22:59–24:58)
• Crow’s Iraq reflection and the imperative of military morality (28:30–31:34)
• On loss of American moral high ground (32:49)
• Crow on Secretary Pete Hegseth and military policy (35:33–37:23)
• Pushing war powers accountability in Congress (37:48)
• Final panel analysis on values, populism, and authenticity (40:06–46:23)

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Host Reflections and Takeaways

• Glasser, Mayer, and Osnos agree on the importance of character, values, and authenticity in Crow’s approach, particularly his willingness to speak candidly—and at personal risk—about the importance of norms and moral conduct in both military and public life.
• They highlight the continuing challenge for Democrats: to articulate clear values that connect economic populism with a larger sense of American identity, without reducing politics to mere technocracy or culture war sloganeering.
• The episode closes by considering whether Democrats can reclaim the mantle of strength, competence, and moral vision—qualities Crow believes must be projected unapologetically.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a candid, sometimes sobering look at how Democrats might recover their voice and direction by reconnecting to local issues, admitting past failures, recruiting authentic candidates, and asserting core American values—particularly in an era when both democracy and decency are under threat. Rep. Crow's story personalizes these themes, making clear what’s at stake for the country and for the Democratic Party as it looks to 2026 and beyond.

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Transcript

[Evan Osnos]

If you're a fan of the political scene podcast from the New Yorker, I hope you'll join us for a special live taping of the show at 92 NY in Manhattan.

[Jane Mayer]

We'll be talking about Donald Trump's falling approval numbers, the prospects of a comeback for the Democratic Party in the midterms,

[Susan Glasser]

and the potential threats to the election that are coming directly from the President himself.

[Evan Osnos]

I hope you can join me, Evan Osnos and my colleagues Susan Glasser and Jane Mayer on June 4th at 7pm Ticket information at 92NY.org.

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[Susan Glasser]

Evan, I noticed someone took a picture from the state dinner tonight of the playlist and those spontaneous Chinese officials decided that they should play a rousing chorus of YMCA for Donald Trump. I'm sure that was spontaneous too, right?

[Evan Osnos]

I think it's just a miracle and a sign of statesmanship that they didn't play Phantom of the Opera on repeat or something. I mean, they could have gone full cats.

[Jane Mayer]

Like, I just want to know when you cover it. Did they give you a few leftovers? Have you been able to try the crispy beef or the duck? Sounded really intriguing.

[Evan Osnos]

Well, this'll give you a sense of how much things have changed, so it won't shock you to hear that now the press corps is so big and we're kept so far from the action that like we have our own sad buffet while they're eating a big, splendid royal buffet. But in the old days, guys, reporters used to get so close that during the Nixon visit in 1980, 1972, one of the reporters afterwards went up and grabbed a set of chopsticks from the head table as a souvenir.

[Susan Glasser]

The question is, what does Donald Trump come home with on Air Force One? I bet he's sticking the ashtrays and the china in his bag. Souvenir.

[Evan Osnos]

Say, is that a panda in your carry on, sir, or is that he

[Susan Glasser]

has a big case of Xi Jinping envy? It seems to me, Evan, that's a

[Evan Osnos]

great way to put it.

[Susan Glasser]

What's the meter on that so far on this trip?

[Evan Osnos]

Yeah, there's been the vibes this week, I will tell you, are very distinctly that Donald Trump really kind of wishes he had this gig, not the one in Washington. So, you know, he's scheduled to get on his plane this afternoon. But who knows, maybe we'll have a presidential defection. We'd have something to write about.

[Susan Glasser]

Welcome to the Political Scene from the New Yorker, a weekly discussion about the big questions in American politics. I'm Susan Glasser and I'm joined by my colleagues Evan Osnos and Jane Mayer. Hi, Evan, from far flung Beijing, where you're joining us today.

[Evan Osnos]

Hi, good morning here. And I don't know what time it is there.

[Susan Glasser]

It's not. Morning, Jane. Hi.

[Jane Mayer]

Hey. Hey, how are you? Great to see you all.

[Susan Glasser]

Let's just start by saying that Democrats are headed into the 2026 midterms with the belief, the well founded belief that Donald Trump and his Republican Party are politically vulnerable, to say the least, on the economy, economy, on the war in Iran that seems like it's not ending, on the turbulence that has come to define Republican rule and Donald Trump's second term. You would think at such a moment that Democrats would have to commit something like political malpractice on an epic scale if they were somehow not to win the midterm elections. And yet they're also confronting a set of, let's call them, vulnerabilities of their own party, still searching for its message after the defeat of 2024, still divided over its identity. I'm excited in that context for our guest this week. You will know him as a member of the, quote, unquote, seditious six, the six Democratic members of Congress who made a video back in November urging US Military service members to remember they do not have to follow illegal orders. It infuriated Donald Trump and Pete Hegseth so much they tried to have our guest and his five fellow members of Congress imprisoned as a result of it. Jason Crow, Congressman From Colorado. He is an Army Ranger veteran. He saw real combat in both Iraq and Afghanistan. He has been a longtime member of both the House Intelligence and Armed Services Committees. I can't think of anyone better to talk to us now not only about the politics of the moment, but also how to translate the growing anxiety over national security and the economy into a coherent winning message for Democrats. Jane, before Congressman Crow comes in, what do you make of this national notoriety that's followed these members of Congress for frankly saying the blindingly obvious, which is that you shouldn't follow illegal orders. This was all before Trump's war.

[Jane Mayer]

I mean, if anything, I think it's made them sort of seem heroic for having spoken up and said, you don't need to follow illegal orders. They're just showing, speaking out for what's obvious and what every soldier is trained on. And the fact that Trump and Hagseth went after them for saying that makes them look like they're the ones who are violating norms, standards, and laws. So it's raised their profiles and of course, the charges, they could not get a grand jury to indict these people because grand juries could see through it, too, that it was just sort of vicious politics.

[Susan Glasser]

Speaking of vicious politics, Evan, you are speaking to us very heroically from the pre dawn hours, actually a day ahead of where Jane and I are in Beijing right now. You're reporting from China, where President Trump is trying to escape domestic politics by meeting with Xi Jinping at this Beijing summit. From where you sit on the other side of the world, you know, what does it look like when our controversial, divisive president tries to engage in international diplomacy?

[Evan Osnos]

There is a long tradition, as you know, of presidents occasionally trying to find refuge in foreign policy at moments when they're struggling at home. But this case seemed so strange, frankly, that even Chinese observers and analysts and government advisors were saying, is he really gonna come? I mean, here he is, he's engaged in a war at home, and. And he's gonna go all the way over there and meet with us. They were surprised, and right up until the last minute, they weren't entirely sure this was gonna happen. So I think there is, even beyond his critics in domestic politics, there are people who say it is a strange time for this president at a moment when Americans are really dealing with a lot to get up and go engage in what has been a summit that is high on pageantry and relatively modest in terms of what the substantive gains are.

[Susan Glasser]

So you don't think that Donald Trump is gonna come back from China having done anything in terms of deal making to relieve the economic anxiety for voters back home.

[Evan Osnos]

Well, I think he's certainly gonna come back with something. He's surrounded by at least a dozen CEOs, people like Elon Musk and Jensen Huang of Nvidia and Goldman Sachs and Apple. You go down the line. So there's no question they're gonna give him something like a big purchase of Boeing airplanes. And so. And Beef, known as the three Bs so far is one of the things that they're talking about. But look, that is easy to be dazzled by, particularly in Donald Trump's world where it comes down to this kind of transaction, to the deal. But that does nothing to underline the structural questions which are both central to the US China relationship around trade and technology, the war in Iran. And I think they're actually the easiest thing to come home with. And there are a lot of people who are saying, well, hold on, you're just going to kind of take your goody bag. What about all of these really serious issues? Are we going to see some progress on those?

[Susan Glasser]

Well, what a great teeing up the conversation with our guest, Congressman Jason Crow from Colorado. Congressman, how you doing?

[Jason Crow]

Hi, Susan.

[Evan Osnos]

Good.

[Susan Glasser]

So I wanted to start the conversation today talking about the connection from this Beijing summit that Evan is covering and what's happening here in our elections this year, which is all about this question of economic anxiety. So I thought we would start by playing a clip of President Trump from earlier this week just to get your reaction as a politician. To what extent are Americans financial situations motivating you to make a deal?

[Jason Crow]

Not even a little bit. The only thing that matters when I'm talking about Iran, they can't have a nuclear weapon. I don't think about American's financial situation. I don't think about anybody. I think about one, we cannot let Iran have a nuclear weapon. That's all. That's the only thing that motivates us.

[Susan Glasser]

Okay. Congressman Crow, how many Democratic campaign ads this year are going to feature that line about I don't think about Americans

[Jason Crow]

financial situation probably a lot. I mean, why wouldn't they? Right? The guy's saying the quiet part out loud now. And this isn't the first time he said this, Right? He said that economic anxieties of Americans are misplaced. They're wrong. He gives the economy an A. The man routinely discounts the suffering of the American people. And this isn't about politics. This is about who can actually lead the country and who can actually address the issues that are at the top of people's minds. And, you know, for him to say that, you know, Iran is most important issue is tone deaf at best, Right? When we have millions of Americans, upwards of 20 million Americans who might be losing their health care, when we have people that are losing their homes and can't pay their rent and mortgage, for him to say something like that is pretty, pretty stunning.

[Jane Mayer]

You're co leading the recruitment effort, right, for Democratic candidates. Are you hearing people talking about the affordability issue, turning on Trump as someone who they thought could fix the economy and lead us out of this?

[Jason Crow]

Absolutely. I mean, it's the number one issue. Americans are being squeezed from every angle, Right. They can't afford groceries, they're cutting back on their annual vacation, if they could even afford to take one in the first instance. The tariffs have devastated American farmers and ranchers. I was just in Wisconsin, in Michigan, not too long ago, campaigning in battleground districts. And the soybean farmers up there haven't had orders in months because of the trade war. You know, this president has let the people who voted for him and trusted in him down, but that's not enough, right? Just Trump failing and Trump turning his back on the voters who gave him a chance is not gonna get us there. We have to have a positive, proactive vision. That's what I'm working with these candidates on. You know, I spent the last year recruiting these next generation of servant leaders around the country. I'm now mentoring them, helping them build campaigns, and we're gonna be relentlessly focused on local issues.

[Evan Osnos]

Help me understand something, if you can, about the perception of the parties, Congressman. I mean, it's what you've just described and what we've talked about on the show is a real level of distress out there among voters, particularly among the working class. And yet we see in data that even Donald Trump's handling of the economy is deteriorating as an ingredient of his image that the Republicans are still in some ways known as now the party of the working class. And Democrats are associated with a kind of wealthy elite, despite the fact that, you know, Trump surrounds himself with CEOs and billionaires at every turn. Why is this? Help us understand how this came to be in your mind. And what do you think Democrats need to do to reach those voters?

[Jason Crow]

Yeah, well, you know, I'm a working class guy. I was raised in a working class family. I started working when I was 15 and minimum wage jobs and fast food, and then worked my way through college and construction as a construction laborer. Then went the army. Most of my life has been around working class folks. Most of my family actually are Trump supporters and Trump voters from the conservative upper Midwest. And you know, first of all, I saw all this coming in 2016. I actually predicted Donald Trump winning because I saw the trend happening. I saw how Democrats were. We're pulling back and losing rural Americans and working class Americans. And I'll be honest, I don't blame Donald Trump for getting elected twice. Right. But I do put a lot of blame as a proud Democrat on the Democratic Party for allowing that to happen. You know, how have we lost 90% of American counties when we actually do have policies that will deliver for working class Americans? So here's where we're at. Number one, we need to be honest with people that we have fallen short. Unless we come out and very explicitly say, hey, we've fallen short, we stopped showing up in vast swaths of this country, we haven't delivered for you, we won't have legitimacy. Right. And people need to hear us say that. And I've been saying that, and I've been encouraging my candidates to say that. The second is we just can't come right out of the gate and ask people support again. We have to show some empathy and recognize that people are suffering. And a lot of folks voted for Donald Trump because they're frustrated, they're angry, they were suffering and they wanted change. So coming out and saying, you know, I am sorry this did not work out. I don't want you to suffer anymore. And this president is compounding that. What I want to do is figure out how we can move forward together. And then the third is we got to go back to places we haven't made our case for a very long time. Democrats over targeted in our elections and our campaigns. We stopped showing up in vast swaths of the country. And how can we expect people to know what we stand for if we literally haven't been making the case and talking to them for cycles? Right. So we have years of work to do now, and this is gonna take longer than between now and November to reintroduce ourselves to a lot of Americans and to re earn their trust.

[Susan Glasser]

So tell us a little bit more about what the map looks like. We're still relatively early in the primary season, but of course, if you read the national media, you'll get a sense that there's sort of a broad conflict taking place between the kind of, I think David Ignatius called you the angry middle of the party. And you know, I'm not that angry Exactly. The angry or left, perhaps. But you know, Republicans, they know that Donald Trump is unpopular. They know that their policies are unpopular. Their plan is to run scorched earth against Democrats and say you're all crazy leftist socialists. You know, it's Mamdani's party and you're all just living in it. So tell us, give us a little bit of a report on, you know, from the front line of that Democratic fissure. You know, do you see leftist candidates winning in key primaries? How much are Republicans gonna be able to succeed in defining you as a bunch of extremist left culture warriors?

[Jason Crow]

Well, I flipped a seat in 2018. I'm actually the first Democrat to ever hold my seat in Congress. It had been since its inception a Republican held seat. So. And then I had, then I held it as a frontliner in 2020. So I know something about flipping seats and keeping them. And what I can tell you is it's hyper local. Our Democrats, the people that we've recruited, are incredible folks, right? They have strong grounding in their communities. They largely don't have political backgrounds. They're people that have served in uniform, retired law enforcement, retired military, doctors, nurses, small business owners, people that are raising young families in their community. They look like the communities they serve. They have done things in their communities outside of politics. And I tell these folks that you're basically running your campaign like you're running for mayor of your district. Ignore Fox News, ignore the cable news networks, ignore the algorithms. You can't control that anyhow. So relentlessly focus on every water project that's not being funded in your district. The fact that your ranchers now don't have disease monitoring anymore because we pulled out of the whole. The fact that lead in the drinking water of your local schools isn't being remediated because the federal grants have been cut, hyperlocal. Because you are going to win by focusing on that district. You're not going to win or lose because you're a Democrat or a Republican. This cycle, you have to be independent and you have to show that. So that's different though. Running in midterms in a cycle like that is that very local, very independent strand of campaigning that's different from the larger project that the Democratic Party has to embark on, and that is, you know, rebranding ourselves, making the reforms that we have to make at a national scale, which is gonna be the task between now and 2028.

[Jane Mayer]

But can you really escape the sort of nationalization of issues that are culture war issues that seem to be Dividing people so sharply along partisan lines. You know, I'm sort of looking out across the country and maybe I'm looking at the wrong things. But you see in places like Michigan that there are primaries where people are. There are three cand candidates running against each other in the primary that seem to be dividing along the left that's talking about Palestinians and Israel. And you've got the center of the party that's aligned with Schumer, and then you've got another candidate trying to find space in between. And it seems that national and international issues are playing into there. It's hard to talk locally, isn't it?

[Jason Crow]

Yeah, Jane, it's never been harder. Political leadership and certainly in my lifetime has never been harder. And you paint this picture of all of those forces that are bearing on us, and I would add to that redistricting, which is polarizing even more and gonna leave fewer and fewer areas of purple districts and kind of middle ground for people to come together. It is a very dire situation. I don't mean to. I'm not gonna be Pollyannish about this at all. Right. We are facing a deep structural threat to our democracy with the influence of technology. And AI is going to supercharge that. You know, we as a, as a democracy are not ready for the impact of AI and generative AI and our politics. And you talk to young folks and they don't even know what the truth is anymore, Right. Because they get inundated with things. You know, half of it is fake and made up. So it is a challenge. It's an unbelievable leadership challenge. But we have to figure that out. Giving up is not an option for me. Right. I'm not going to just lay down and concede defeat and say, well, you know, the structural challenges are just too much to overcome because if we do that, we're lost. Right. And there's no way forward. I don't believe that's true. I think there is a way forward, and I think it's going to take really good leadership that knows how to build coalitions and knows how to connect with folks locally. And if we can build confidence again by winning and having really good people running for office. And it's tough recruiting good people right now, let me tell you.

[Evan Osnos]

Right.

[Jason Crow]

Sitting in the living rooms and across bar stools from folks and telling them to quit their job and tap into their savings and spend half their time away from their family and be subjected to death threats and have people following you everywhere you go and yell and scream at you is a hard case to make. But I can tell you that people are stepping up, and that's what gives me hope. People are, despite all of that, are stepping up in droves at every local, every level of government, state, federal, local, to run.

[Evan Osnos]

A question about leadership within the party. Jane mentioned Chuck Schumer. I'm curious, how durable is Senator Schumer as the party's leader in that body? Do you think the generational and the ideological pressures that have been building inside the party are becoming a real challenge for him?

[Jason Crow]

Yeah, I mean, there's no doubt about that. And that's just not my opinion. I mean, just look around right there is a very real contest right now for the future of all parties, but the Democratic Party included, and I'm somebody that believes that we do need the next generation of leadership to stand up. I do think we need a refresh to some degree. And that's not ageist. I'm not being ageist, by the way, because there are incredible people who are in their 60s, 70s, who are still kicking ass, excuse my language, are doing great work. So it's about capacity and vigor and energy, and people of all ages can have that. But I also know I'm under no delusion. Political power is never given away. It's rarely ever passed to you. You have to take it, and you take it by finding tough fighters, street fighters who are willing to weigh into tough races and run against the odds and earn it.

[Susan Glasser]

So just to clarify, you guys are up against a street fighter in Donald Trump who's been underestimated at Democrats peril again, again and again, it seems like for these candidates you're recruiting, you're saying, stick local. Talk about how the evisceration of the federal government is playing out at your district level. That all makes sense to a certain extent. But where do you stand on Trump as an existential threat? Because how can that not figure in this year's midterm elections? Isn't that one of the main reasons that Democrats are going to want to come out and vote this fall for Democratic candidates?

[Jason Crow]

Yeah, I mean, it's very clear to me that he is an existential threat. He is assaulting every element of our democracy. So, yeah, the man poses a threat to almost every element of this country that I know and love. And we should be willing to tackle corruption. You just have to do it the right way. Right. Corruption isn't just about some abstract thing that's happening that's over there in D.C. corruption. What it really is, is theft from my constituents. It's them Stealing out of the pockets of Americans. Right. So they can't afford healthcare. They can't afford their rent and mortgages. And the money that should be in their pockets to pay their mortgage and their rent and to buy their groceries is going to repaint the reflecting pool. It's going to the Billion Dollar Ballroom. It's going to buy a golf course at Andrews Air Force Base. I mean, that is absurd. And I'm never going to apologize for going after money and going after corruption that's stealing from my constituents.

[Jane Mayer]

When you're talking to young recruits about how to run for office, are you telling them to bring up the corruption issue? Are you telling them it'll work? You telling them they gotta bring it home?

[Jason Crow]

Yeah. I mean, I think it's something we can and should talk about. Right. People need to run races that are local, and people in Omaha, Nebraska, and Kansas and Midland, Michigan, and every place in between are gonna figure out what are the issues that they should talk the most about. But it doesn't mean you ignore this larger thing that's hanging over all of us, and that is the attack on our democracy and the corruption that's endemic to it. I also think there's another thing that's really important, and that is you talk to Americans and they don't necessarily disagree with most of the Democratic Party's policies. But what is pretty clear is that folks think that Democrats are weak and timid and lack the competence of their convictions. So, by God, we need to be strong and we need to project that strength and not apologize for our positions all the time and project that strength.

[Susan Glasser]

So, Congressman, I'm mindful of the time here. We're going to take a quick break, and when we come back, we want to talk a little bit more about that time when Donald Trump tried to throw you in jail and the wars that he has unleashed in this second term. The political scene from the New Yorker will be back in just a moment.

[Evan Osnos]

We are in uncharted territory.

[Susan Glasser]

Staff writer Evan Osnos on the New Yorker Radio Hour.

[Evan Osnos]

I think all of us right now are trying to make sense of an avalanche of news every day. And there aren't very many places where you can go and understand how something looks in the grand scope of history and context. That's what I come to the New Yorker for.

[Susan Glasser]

I'm David Remnick, and each week my colleagues and I try to make sense

[Jason Crow]

of what's happening in this chaotic world.

[Susan Glasser]

And I hope you'll join us for the New Yorker Radio Hour.

[Jane Mayer]

Before we get back to it. Quick question. What do you think the overlap is between our listeners and people who are, let's say, anxious about the 2026 midterms?

[Evan Osnos]

I would say the overlap is significant. Probably some cautious optimists out there, too.

[Jane Mayer]

People with very strong opinions. Either way, it's a lot.

[Susan Glasser]

Whatever you're feeling about the midterms, though, please come and see us live. We are doing a special taping of the podcast at 92 NY in New York City on June 4th.

[Evan Osnos]

Yeah, we're gonna be talking about election integrity, what's at stake, whether Democrats can actually capitalize on Trump's falling approval and

[Jane Mayer]

whether some of these once safe Republican seats are really as competitive as they look.

[Susan Glasser]

And by the way, what happens if Democrats actually do take back Congress? What does it mean for 2028 for

[Jane Mayer]

anyone with a VIP ticket? There's also a meet and greet after the taping, so the political analysis will continue over drinks.

[Evan Osnos]

It's true. And if you're not in New York, good news because we have streaming set up so you can watch from wherever you are. So head to 92 NYU for more info or check the link in our show notes. We hope to see you there on June 4th.

[Susan Glasser]

Welcome back. Congressman Jason Crow, we talked earlier in the show about you as one of the seditious six members of Congress for filming a video in which you urged US service members not to follow illegal orders. It seemed almost as if Trump was hearing that as something of a playbook. Soon thereafter, the filming of that video, in fact, came a campaign in the Caribbean and the Pacific to launch what many observers consider to be illegal strikes on boats in waters without any proof of who the people are or what's happening, what's going on there. As a veteran who's actually seen combat, what do you make of this campaign by Trump, both here in the Western Hemisphere, a war he's ordered without Congress's approval or acquiescence in the Middle east as well. How does this square with the idea of Democrats message in 2026?

[Jason Crow]

Well, he threatened to have us executed and tried for treason. So I was pretty shocked. That was the response. Because again, this should not have been a sensational thing. What we say is what the Uniform Code of Military justice teaches. It's what is taught in boot camps and the service academies, whatever military commander teaches. And it's actually a part of military life, this idea that every day we're asking our service members to make life and death decisions, whether to drop a bomb or to pull a trigger. It's what I did in my over 100 combat missions in Iraq and Afghanistan. You have to make really tough calls. And we ask young men and women, 18, 19, 20 year old soldiers to make these calls, right? And America needs to know that this is a part of what military life is about. And we ask people to do that. So that was an important kind of enlightening thing for a lot of people to think about and understand that this is day to day life for Americans. But I did that video less as a member of Congress and more as a soldier because I remember I was putting myself back in my boots as Lieutenant Young Lieutenant Crow back in 2003 when I had taken over my first platoon of army paratroopers at Fort Bragg and 82nd Airborne Division and I was told to get my unit ready for deployment to Iraq for the invasion of Iraq. And I had studied military history and military leadership and knew when military leadership had gone well and when it had gone poorly. So I remember, you know, reading about the My Lai massacre in Vietnam, reading about Sand Creek massacre in Colorado, and I had committed myself that I would never allow that to happen to my platoon and my mental right. Because I know the psychology around this that, you know, after these very long deployments, you're losing your friends, you don't know if you're ever going to make it home yourself. It's. It's hard to keep your own grounding. So I actually rented the movie Platoon and which has a scene in there that's a reenactment of the Nilai Massacre from Vietnam. And I played that scene to my paratroopers and then I led them in a discussion about how that happened. How did you young men, just like them, infantry men, end up doing these terrible things, you know, who had come from towns just like they came from. How did you. How do you lose sight with your humanity, you lose your grounding and forget that you might have to go home. And you will go home someday too, you know, and the idea of Herman Melville, you know, how do you become the monster that you're chasing, right? That can happen to you. So that that kind of level setted with my platoon and started that ongoing discussion that then lasted the rest of that year in Iraq, as we encountered the very same stresses, we started to lose our friends, we started to come under ambush, the insurgency started and we continuously talked about it. So I wanted to send a message with the mantle as a member of Congress to our service members that if you do the right thing, if you remember where you come from, you remember your morality and Your grounding, you follow your oath and you follow the Constitution that Congress and the American people will be with you.

[Evan Osnos]

I have to say, Congressman, what you described there is in some ways a microcosm of this larger battle going on in the world, which is for the sort of moral high ground. Can the United States maintain the position which it has tried in fits and starts, sometimes successfully, sometimes unsuccessfully, since the end of World War II, to create what you would call a sort of. I know this is a damaged idea, but a liberal international order that stands for certain things, like the fact that there are rules in warfare, things that the United States won't do. I know there are people who will say we've never been perfect. And that's true. But what we see in this war, the language coming out, for instance, from Secretary Hegseth when he talks about using American power in the most destructive ways, it does feel to me, talking to you now from the middle of a presidential trip in Beijing, that we are risking in a deep and profound and generational way. What has been the image of the United States as somebody who stands up for a set of values? And even as tarnished as our image might be, do you think that we are at risk of losing that in the way that this administration talks about the use of force and can the United States get it back?

[Jason Crow]

Yeah. How could you say we're not at risk of losing that with the conduct of this President? One of the things that I'm most worried about, that keeps me awake is that all of this will become normal, that we'll have a generation of Americans that will grow up thinking that this is normal and this is the way we should conduct ourselves, that we'll lose our moral clarity and then we'll also lose standards and rules by which we all live by that we don't have arbitrarily. And I think this is an important point. I again grew up in a working class family in the Midwest and I always put myself back in that mindset. When people talk about the rules based international order and all these other terms that are coined in D.C. and other places and rest of America doesn't know what they mean. How does that help me? Why should I care about these rules that are made up in D.C. or London or Paris? And I think what it comes down to for me is that when there's a common set of rules that everyone follows, it levels the playing field for everyday folks. And it comes back to why I'm a Democrat. I'm a Democrat not because I agree with every platform item or every policy of the Democratic Party. It's because I grew up in a working class family, and I saw my friends and family work really hard and follow the rules and do everything they were told they needed to do to achieve the American dream. And yet that dream was broken and eluded them. They couldn't do it. And I realized growing up at one point that it's because the system is rigged, that it's broken in favor of the elites. And I wanted to become a Democrat because what I wanted to do was just unrig that system and level the playing field. I don't want to hand out. I don't want everybody to fix every problem for me. I don't want, you know, things other people's way of life foisted upon me or the people that I'm around, because people have dignity around this country. They like their way of life, but people do want it to be fair. And that applies in their everyday life back home here, and it applies in the world, too. And when there's fairness and when there's standards, people's lives are better. That's pretty indisputable.

[Jane Mayer]

Well, before we leave the subject completely of the conduct of these wars and Pete Hegseth, I just wanted to ask you because you've been a sharp critic of Secretary of War or Defense. Pete Hegseth's defense.

[Jason Crow]

That's the law.

[Jane Mayer]

Yes. Okay. His conduct of foreign policy and national security policy. What is your assessment of his tenure so far?

[Jason Crow]

Well, it's been an abysmal failure by every standard. Right. Here we are, we've bombed seven different countries in a little over a year, most of those without authorization. And that's not just because it's my preference that there be authorization or that I just want to be involved or be notified. It's because that's how we put the American people in the driver's seat. You know, I fought three wars. I went to war three times in Iraq and Afghanistan. And I saw my friends serve and get shot at and get blown up. And I saw the working class kids that I grew up with pay for it in their blood and treasure. Right. Because it's regular Americans that that actually pay their taxes and paid for the five to eight trillion dollars we've spent. And it's working class kids that mainly did the fighting and die well. Wealthy people got wealthier. But I can tell you, as I want it to end, I came to Congress in large part because I was pretty angry with that cycle of conflict and how disproportionate the burden was between the working class and the wealthiest Americans. And we see that playing out again with Iran. Americans right on the right and the left of the spectrum don't want this war.

[Evan Osnos]

Right.

[Jason Crow]

We want out of the endless cycle of conflict. And the way we end it is by putting Congress back in charge of these things. Because nobody's ever going to tell me sitting here that if every single year the United States Congress has to sit on the floor and cast a vote for these conflicts and then appropriate the money, not debt money, but actual money as part of our budget for it, and then go home and stand in front of high school gymnasiums and Rotary clubs and explain that vote to them and why they should be sending their sons and daughters and their money to do this, that it wouldn't be a different result, that these wars wouldn't have ended sooner and differently. I absolutely believe that.

[Susan Glasser]

So Congress isn't going to anytime soon, though, take you up on that offer. It's not like we already have Constitution and War Powers act on the books. So how, given that political reality right now, how do you see the war with Iran ending? I mean, is there any scenario other than what looks like strategic failure for the United States and its partners in this?

[Jason Crow]

Well, Susan, we came within one vote this week of actually passing a war powers resolution in the House. Right. Three Republicans joined us. It was a tie vote and Thai votes fail. So I don't care how many votes it takes, I'll put a vote on the floor every week. I want people to take votes and I want them to be held accountable for it. And if they keep on voting no, then you better believe it. I'm going to be working with the candidates back home in their districts to make them own those votes. So we got to keep at it and keep pushing it. And I tell my Republican colleagues that today is a good day to do the right thing.

[Susan Glasser]

Well, I think we're ending sort of where we started, which is with visions of what those midterm campaign ads are going to look like. They're probably going to feature a lot of Donald Trump's war in the Middle east and a lot of Democrats saying today is a good day to do the right thing. Congressman Jason Crow from Colorado, we really appreciate you taking the time to speak with us today.

[Jason Crow]

Thank you all. It was great to be on with you.

[Jane Mayer]

Great to have you.

[Evan Osnos]

Thanks for joining us.

[Susan Glasser]

The Political Scene from the New Yorker will be back in just a moment.

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[Susan Glasser]

All right, so I feel like the one hard thing about Jason Crowe is that he hits on so many themes. Like, we can use him to talk about this sort of disastrous military adventurism by the America First President. We can talk about Campaign 2026 and what's the Democrats message in the midterms? We can talk about his incredible personal story. And yet, I will say, looking at my fellow podcasters here in the studio and Evan in Beijing, I thought we all were responding in a kind of powerful, visceral way, actually, to listening to Jason Crow talk about being this young officer in 2003 and trying to prepare his fighters for the war in Iraq by showing them this scene in the movie Platoon. And just this idea that we've sort of lost any notion of a moral compass. That, to me, interestingly, I wasn't prepared for that, but I felt like that was kind of the emotional, like, center of gravity of this conversation.

[Jane Mayer]

It unlocked something that is really important, which is a way for the Democratic Democrats to talk about values, about what matters. Not just sort of technocratic, we will take care of you with this program or that program, but values, things that hit people's heart. And he did do that, I think. What did you think, Evan?

[Evan Osnos]

Yeah, for me, it was really important because for one thing, he helped us do the thing that is hard in politics, which is that to take this bland word, norms, and explain that what it really means is what is normal, meaning, what do we tolerate? What do we celebrate? What do we believe is decent? And I think he connected this international question of what does it mean to have a president and a secretary of defense who is gleefully talking about destroying people and talking about war as if it was a video game and tying it into this deeper question of people and voters feeling as if they are cut off from this larger American project. And what he was really getting at, where he talked about fairness and standards, leveling the playing Field. That's actually a linkage that makes sense for me because it reminds me of Teddy Roosevelt talking about a square deal. That was his bit of language for how you get people to understand fairness. That's what you're talking about. That's a very powerful piece of political technology. What he's arguing for, in a sense, both. Both internationally and at home, is a reminder that we do have standards, that we have standards in how we use the public treasury and the money that is collected from taxpayers who work hard for it. And we have standards in American conduct when it comes to the use of immense, overwhelming American power. And tying these things together may not sound as strange as it did before this conversation. I was pretty impressed by his ability to tie those two together. What did you guys think?

[Jane Mayer]

Yeah, I mean, just to add to one other thing, which is it ties in very much with the reason he spoke out about not committing war crimes and telling the troops you don't have to follow an illegal order. What he's doing, I thought that was impressive, was the way he talks about this is about the American kids who are overseas being asked to do these things. He's saying, remember who you are. Remember what America is. Remember what standards we live by, what's decent, what's legal. You don't have to lower yourself, and you don't have to do something that's wrong. And so it ties right in with why he spoke out. I think it was very powerful.

[Susan Glasser]

Well, you know, it's interesting you say that, and I agree. I thought that really resonated for all three of us. Evan had a great question about it. In a way, he's talking about authenticity, Right. Which has been this sort of almost this kind of white whale for politicians in the Trump era. Right. What is your authentic self? Even if Donald Trump is the most inauthentic, quote, unquote, authentically angry politician. And yet I found that there was this moment later on in the conversation where he was sort of using the kind of tropes associated with populism and being like, well, I think elites, the system is rigged. And I wanted to. But that struck a little bit more discordant note. I think Donald Trump and the MAGA movement, in a way, have devalued these slogans of populism. Right. They're sort of the elites are stealing, rigging the system. And we've been hearing this for 10 years from Republicans who get into power and then are using power to enrich themselves and to make billions of dollars and to get rid of the rules and the laws and the norms that were designed to actually help, in many cases, regular people. So I feel like that was a little bit two different messages coming from him. And I think to me, that's the challenge for Democrats right now. Gene is like, how do they reconcile their desire to kind of co opt populist politics versus their desire to say something is wrong in America? We need to get our moral compass back. We need to get back this sense of being what it means to be an American.

[Jane Mayer]

It's so funny. It seems to me that they're stealing each other's script. Basically the Republicans stole the populist working class script from the Democratic Party and now the Democrats are trying to steal the values voters back from the Republicans, which they've had because of the religious right and the family values and all that kind of thing.

[Susan Glasser]

What a great way of summing it up. I mean, I think I'm glad we had Congressman Crow on. It strikes me that he at the moment at least has escaped the risk of either execution or prosecution. But he certainly is adding a lot to the conversation in 2026.

[Jane Mayer]

And that adds to the authenticity. Somebody who's actually stood up to Donald Trump, spoken out, been threatened with treason, execution, and is just saying, I'm not scared. And one of his points was voters think Democrats don't follow through. Democrats have to be strong.

[Susan Glasser]

Evan Shane, so great to be with you this week.

[Evan Osnos]

Great to see you guys.

[Jane Mayer]

Take care.

[Susan Glasser]

This has been the political Scene from the New Yorker. I'm Susan Glaser. We had research assistance today from Alex d'. Elia. Our producer is Nora Richie. Mixing by Mike Kutchman. Steven Valentino is our executive producer and our theme music is by Alison Leighton Brown. Thanks so much for listening.

[Jason Crow]

This week on the New Yorker Radio

[Susan Glasser]

Hour, America is turning 250.

[Jason Crow]

Are we excited yet?

[Susan Glasser]

The idea that we're sitting around waiting

[Jason Crow]

for the occupant of the White House

[Susan Glasser]

to tell us what American history means. You know, that's the thing where you just kind of go out and walk into traffic. Historian Jill Lepore on the history wars in Trump's America. That's the New Yorker Radio Hour from wnyc. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. From prx.