The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode Title: After Charlie Hebdo
Date: January 16, 2015
Host: Dorothy Wickenden (Executive Editor, The New Yorker)
Guests: Steve Coll (New Yorker staff writer, author of "Ghost Wars"), John Cassidy (New Yorker staff writer)

Episode Overview

This episode of "The Political Scene" dives into the aftermath of the Charlie Hebdo attacks in Paris, examining the evolution of jihadist terrorism, the effectiveness (and costs) of Western counterterrorism policies, challenges of Muslim integration in Europe, debates around free speech versus hate speech, and the delicate balance between civil liberties and security. With insights from Steve Coll and John Cassidy, the discussion unpacks both the immediate and long-term issues raised by the attacks.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Evolution of Terrorism in the Modern Era

• From Large-Scale Plots to Smaller Attacks:
  • Steve Coll traces jihadist tactics from "Made for TV, spectacular" attacks (e.g., 9/11) to smaller-scale, less sophisticated but persistent violence (e.g., Charlie Hebdo, Fort Hood, Paris supermarket, Kenyan mall attack).
  • Quote: “A lot of small scale groups, either self-radicalizing and self directing or trained sort of along the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan, or veterans of Iraq or Syria ... They usually work in relatively small groups ... They find it very difficult to cross borders because they’re usually on lists. So they have to limit the scale of their ambition.” — Steve Coll (03:17)
• Fedayeen Attacks:
  • A shift toward suicide-by-police tactics (so-called "Fedayeen"), where attackers target difficult or “impossible” targets (e.g., Mumbai), maximizing casualties before being killed.
  • “There was a sort of dignity that arose as a counter to the suicide bombing tactic ... a sort of more Hollywood and kind of manly form of suicide attack.” — Steve Coll (05:31)

2. The Role of Yemen and Training Grounds

• The persistence of regions like Yemen as key sites for terrorist training is emphasized, contextualizing how attackers may originate or be radicalized.

3. The Clash of Civilizations Debate

• Revival After Attacks:
  • John Cassidy notes that Huntington’s "clash of civilizations" theory resurged in discussions post-Charlie Hebdo, especially in France’s context with its large Muslim population and right-wing nationalist backlash.
  • Quote: “So a lot of people did say, look, you know, this is the sort of next stage of the war of civilizations. I think, encouragingly, there was a sort of backlash against that backlash ... especially given the enormous sort of unity demonstration in the Place de la République, which Obama inexplicably missed.” — John Cassidy (06:57)
• French Assimilation Challenges:
  • France’s strict secularism, its colonial history (notably in Algeria), and policies like the burqa ban are said to fuel alienation and radicalization.
  • Quote: “The great French secular tradition ... and the Muslims who want to wear their burqas and keep to their own ways present a challenge to that. ... In France we've got these actual policies where they ban the burqas ... That’s, I think, fed the feeling in certain parts of the Muslim community they're stigmatized.” — John Cassidy (08:04)

4. Free Speech vs. Hate Speech

• Legal Traditions Diverge:
  • Steve Coll and John Cassidy compare the American and European approaches, noting the U.S. robust First Amendment protection vs. European restrictions on hate speech.
  • Quote: “Certain kinds of direct incitement to violence are not protected in some circumstances ... European or French law, which does ban hate speech that is not directly tied to the incitement of violence.” — Steve Coll (09:15)
  • “A lot of these European laws, of course, were originally introduced to stop hate speech by the radical Imams.” — John Cassidy (09:50)

5. Effectiveness of Counterterrorism & Intelligence Policy

• Border Controls and Information Sharing:
  • Coll emphasizes defensive and intelligence-sharing measures—making movement harder for known suspects—as most effective in reducing attacks.
  • Quote: “Probably the most effective policies ... involve making things harder when people with violent intent who have already been identified try to move ... That kind of defensive measure is unfortunately sort of the world we’re in.” — Steve Coll (11:06)
• The Limitation and Oversight of Surveillance:
  • Discussion of mass surveillance, metadata collection, and secret warrants highlights the lack of public visibility, efficacy, and potential overreach.
  • “My own sense is there’s a lot we don’t know about the use of both those kinds of surveillance because they’re secret ... our governments ... prefer to argue by assertion. Trust us, this stuff works.” — Steve Coll (12:16)
• Policy Stagnation Post-Paris:
  • Cassidy argues the attacks will likely stall reforms aimed at curtailing post-9/11 surveillance powers (e.g., the defeated USA FREEDOM Act).
  • “I think ... the Paris attacks ... make less likely ... any major changes to the Patriot Act ... now the Republicans are in power and we’ve had this other big terrorist attack. I think there’s very little chance that anything much is going to change.” — John Cassidy (13:12)
• Effectiveness Questioned:
  • Coll is skeptical that metadata programs have been critical in disrupting attacks, beyond what traditional warrants would allow.
  • “I don’t see the specific evidence that information that couldn’t have been obtained by warrant was obtained through metadata and was essential to the timely disruption of an attack.” — Steve Coll (13:55)
  • Cassidy agrees, noting intelligence officials prize lower thresholds for secret warrants more than bulk data.

6. The Limits of Technology and Value of Human Intelligence

• Coll criticizes over-reliance on algorithms and technology vendors, emphasizing the irreplaceable value of traditional policing and “the human equation” in monitoring suspects.
  • “What the system really needs is timely, actionable information that is recognizable for its significance. ... There’s no algorithm that can do that.” — Steve Coll (15:32)

7. Long-term Approach: Beyond Security

• Root Causes:
  • Cassidy stresses reducing youth radicalization by weighing the potential long-term consequences of counterterrorism on community alienation.
  • “We’re never going to get to grips with this problem unless we reduce the number of kids going into sort of jihad ... you’ve got to take a two-part approach ... are they going to have sort of counterproductive effects in the long term?” — John Cassidy (16:56)
• Violence Beyond Ideology:
  • Coll reminds the audience that mass violence isn’t unique to Islamist terrorism—parallels exist with secular mass shootings in the U.S., often tied to access to weapons and early warning failures, not ideology.
  • “... mass violence from deranged individuals is hardly limited to the particular stream of sort of jihadi nihilism that surfaced in Paris.” — Steve Coll (17:26)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The real capacity of the transnational jihadist movement is a lot more like what you saw in Paris. And that’s been true really for 10 years.”
  — Steve Coll (03:17)
• “The clash of civilizations view ... got a bit of a boost after the attack, but then it got knocked down again.”
  — John Cassidy (06:57)
• “There’s no substitute for the human equation and you’re going to miss some.”
  — Steve Coll (15:32)
• “We’re never going to get to grips with this problem unless we reduce the number of kids going into sort of jihad.”
  — John Cassidy (16:56)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:45–03:17: Terrorism after 9/11—shift from large-scale attacks to small, self-radicalized cells (Steve Coll)
• 05:16–05:31: Yemen and evolving “Fedayeen” suicide-by-police tactics
• 06:43–07:53: Huntington “Clash of Civilizations” in France, immigration and backlash (John Cassidy)
• 08:04–09:11: Muslim integration, French vs. British approaches, secular traditions (John Cassidy)
• 09:11–09:50: Free speech vs. hate speech; differences in U.S. and European legal frameworks
• 11:01–12:08: Intelligence cooperation; effective policies in thwarting terrorism (Steve Coll)
• 12:08–14:44: Surveillance, secret warrants, and Patriot Act debates (Steve Coll & John Cassidy)
• 15:32–16:56: Limitations of technology, necessity of human intelligence (Steve Coll)
• 16:56–17:26: Reducing radicalization and the importance of long-term strategies (John Cassidy)
• 17:26–18:05: Broader context: mass shootings and violence outside ideological motivations (Steve Coll)

Summary

This episode offers a nuanced post-Charlie Hebdo analysis, combining security, policy, cultural, and philosophical reflections. The conversation challenges simplistic narratives about the “war on terror,” foregrounds the limits and ethical complexities of surveillance and intelligence work, scrutinizes the societal challenges in France and Europe, and underscores the importance of not sacrificing civil liberties. Both guests argue for hard-headed realism but caution against believing that either technology or repression alone can solve the deep-seated issues behind radicalization and political violence. The discussion closes by linking the problem of violence to broader social dynamics, reminding listeners that the roots and manifestations of such brutality are far-reaching and complex.