The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Episode: "America the Apoplectic"
Date: June 16, 2016
Host: Dorothy Wickenden, Executive Editor, The New Yorker
Guest: Ayad Akhtar, Playwright, Novelist, Pulitzer Prize Winner
Overview
In this episode, Dorothy Wickenden speaks with acclaimed playwright Ayad Akhtar, whose work deeply explores Muslim American identity and the nuances of cultural belonging in post-9/11 America. Triggered by the aftermath of the Orlando mass shooting and a political climate marked by Donald Trump’s proposed ban on Muslim immigration, their conversation moves from Akhtar’s personal and artistic journey to a broader interrogation of race, identity, and the American “we.” They also preview Akhtar’s upcoming play, Junk, broadening the lens to examine American capitalism, debt culture, and the intersections with ethnicity and power.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Impact and Themes of “Disgraced”
[01:15-03:23]
- Disgraced, Akhtar's Pulitzer Prize-winning play, is the most-produced play in the U.S. this year. It centers on Amir, a corporate lawyer navigating his Pakistani and Muslim identity among mostly Jewish colleagues.
- A pivotal dinner party scene “where his secrets come out” marks a turning point; Amir’s inner conflict erupts as he “starts speaking his mind in ways that he probably never should,” leading to the unraveling of his life.
- Quote: “Basically his life falls apart by the end of that scene.” — Ayad Akhtar [03:11].
2. Personal Experiences of American Muslim Identity
[03:23-04:14]
- Akhtar shares his family’s immigration story: both parents were doctors brought to the U.S. in the late '60s during a “science and technology push" after JFK. He was born in New York but raised in Wisconsin.
- Growing up pre-9/11, Akhtar felt “different, but not out of place,” unlike the more fraught atmosphere now.
3. The Post-Orlando Climate and “Trumpism”
[04:14-06:05]
- Following mass shootings and Trump's suggested Muslim immigration ban, Akhtar describes American Muslims’ “shudder of dread and fear” after attacks.
- Quote: “Every time there's a terrorist attack...there's a shudder of dread and fear that goes through the community. I may have members of my family don't leave the house for days after one of those attacks.” — Ayad Akhtar [04:42].
- He critiques the absence of nuance: “There really is no place for nuance in our own experience” for Muslim Americans post-9/11 because dual loyalty is suspect; “You’ve got to be a card-carrying member of the American flag in all of its sort of unthinking jingoism.”
4. On Writing, Identity, and Representation
[06:05–07:23]
- Akhtar resists being pigeonholed as a “Muslim writer.” While his characters are treated as individuals, they cannot escape societal labeling.
- He argues for the unique nature of faith and individualism in American life, drawing from Harold Bloom, and how this colors the immigrant and minority experience.
- Quote: “A man who wishes to define himself…as a secular individual, is not allowed to forget the fact that he is fundamentally Muslim.” — Ayad Akhtar [07:13].
5. Audience Responses and Bafflement
[07:23–08:17]
- African American audiences readily relate to the themes of Disgraced, recognizing the “once a Muslim, always a Muslim” dynamic mirrors the “one drop rule” for Black identity in America.
- Notable reactions include an Iranian woman urging Akhtar to be “an ambassador for the faith” and a white military veteran who saw the work as universal:
- Quote: “I saw men my whole life struggle with their careers and struggle with their place because they couldn't figure out where their loyalties really lay. And that was the man that I saw in your play.” — Military veteran to Akhtar [08:17].
6. Political Rhetoric: Obama, Trump, and “The American We”
[09:48–11:39]
- President Obama and Hillary Clinton's calls for tolerance are contrasted with Trump's divisive rhetoric.
- Quote (news clip): “Are we going to start treating all Muslim Americans differently? It won't make us more safe. It will make us less safe.” [09:55].
- Akhtar reflects on the erosion of a coherent American identity (“the ‘we’ is beginning to disintegrate in terms of its coherence”) and underscores the essential link between democracy and education.
- Quote: “Supplanting it [identity] with an idea is a challenge. It takes education. I often say democracy is meaningless without education.” — Ayad Akhtar [11:19].
7. Race, Leadership, and Reaction
[11:39–12:59]
- The election of Barack Obama, the first Black president, did not fulfill hopes of a post-racial America. Instead, it’s been met with increased divisiveness, manipulated politically by Trump.
- Quote: “That animus toward the underclass, the racial underclass, has erupted now that you have the very thing that they've been trying to avoid, staring at them on television, telling them how to live their lives. There's a black man in the White House... It makes people apoplectic.” — Ayad Akhtar [12:31].
- Akhtar stresses that denying America's history of racism is to misunderstand its reality.
8. Upcoming Play: “Junk” and American Capitalism
[13:06–14:43]
- Akhtar’s next play, Junk: The Golden Age of Debt, dramatizes how the 1980s redefined debt in American life, transforming it into an asset and fueling both immense wealth and systemic risk.
- Quote: “Debt was something that figured the original sin of human existence...at some point we as a nation, I think, embrace the notion of debt as something to unlock wealth. And...it has come at a cost.” — Ayad Akhtar [13:25].
- The play features Jewish financiers challenging the WASP establishment, linking economic and ethnic anxieties.
9. Cyclical Crises and the Value of Truth
[14:43–15:35]
- Wickenden asks if Trumpism is a temporary cycle or something deeper. Akhtar expresses concern about societal disregard for truth and the consequences of anti-intellectualism.
- Quote: “My ignorance is as good as your knowledge, that that's the way that a lot of people think and that's really, in many ways is the sort of aphorism of our time.” — Ayad Akhtar [15:29], referencing Asimov.
Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes
- “Every time there's a terrorist attack...there's a shudder of dread and fear that goes through the community.” — Ayad Akhtar [04:42]
- “In a post-9/11 world, it's almost impossible to admit to dual loyalty. As a Muslim in this country you've got to be a card-carrying member of the American flag in all its sort of unthinking jingoism.” — Ayad Akhtar [05:18]
- “Supplanting it [identity] with an idea is a challenge. It takes education. I often say democracy is meaningless without education.” — Ayad Akhtar [11:19]
- “That animus toward the underclass, the racial underclass, has erupted now that you have the very thing that they've been trying to avoid... There’s a black man in the White House... It makes people apoplectic.” — Ayad Akhtar [12:31]
- “Debt was something that figured the original sin of human existence...at some point we as a nation...embraced the notion of debt as something to unlock wealth. And...it has come at a cost.” — Ayad Akhtar [13:25]
- “My ignorance is as good as your knowledge.” — Ayad Akhtar, quoting Isaac Asimov [15:29]
Suggested Timestamps for Key Segments
- 01:15 – Introduction to Akhtar and "Disgraced"
- 03:23 – Akhtar’s Personal Background
- 04:14 – Muslim American Challenges Post-Orlando & Trump
- 06:15 – The Role of Identity in Akhtar’s Works
- 07:23 – Audience Responses, Race, and Representation
- 09:48 – Obama, Trump, and the Political Climate
- 11:39 – Race, Obama, and the Roots of Anger
- 13:06 – Preview of "Junk" and Economic Anxiety
- 14:43 – Is Trumpism Temporary or Enduring?
- 15:35 – Closing Thoughts
Tone & Language
The conversation is direct, insightful, and nuanced—with Akhtar thoughtfully unpacking complex themes and Wickenden guiding the discussion with empathy and clarity. The tone moves from personal reminiscence to acute cultural critique, with both participants unsparing in their analysis but careful to emphasize the intricacies behind contemporary American anxieties.
This summary encapsulates the episode’s deep dive into the personal and political dilemmas of American identity, the persistent complexities of race and religion, and the economic undercurrents shaping national life. Ayad Akhtar’s reflections—personal, literary, and philosophical—offer listeners a rich, challenging perspective on what it means to belong, to be seen, and to confront the “apoplectic” moods of modern America.