The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: And Then There Were Two: Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden
Date: March 9, 2020
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Amy Davidson Sorkin (New Yorker columnist), Michael Kazin (Georgetown historian, editor of Dissent)

Episode Overview

This episode analyzes the winnowing of the Democratic presidential primary to two contenders: Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden. Host David Remnick is joined first by Amy Davidson Sorkin for a refresher on the complexities of the primary and convention process, including the potential for a contested convention and the role of superdelegates. The discussion then turns to historian Michael Kazin for deeper insights into Bernie Sanders, the meaning of "democratic socialism" in American politics, the Sanders campaign's challenges, and his lasting impact on the Democratic Party’s ideology.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How the Primary & Convention Work

[01:15–04:17]

• Delegate Math:
  • 1,991 pledged delegates are needed to secure the nomination.
    • Amy Davidson Sorkin: "You know, there's a lot of states left to vote and you've sewn up the nomination. When you get 1,991 of the pledged delegates." [01:58]
• What Primary Votes Actually Mean:
  • Voting for delegates, not directly for candidates.
  • If no candidate gets a majority, a second convention ballot is triggered, and superdelegates (nearly 800 party insiders) become eligible to vote.
• Superdelegates and Party Democracy:
  • Superdelegates tend to support establishment candidates, likely favoring Biden over Sanders.
  • The process raises questions about true democracy vs. party control.
    • Amy Davidson Sorkin: "So is that a conspiracy or is that a party acting like a party?" [03:29]
    • Amy Davidson Sorkin: “There are a lot of ways that the democracy here is imperfect.” [03:56]
• Historical Precedent:
  • The last true contested conventions: 1952 (Democrats), 1948 (Republicans).
  • Legendary example: The 1924 Democratic convention (103 ballots), split over major issues, notably the Ku Klux Klan.
    • Amy Davidson Sorkin: "McAdoo wanted the Klan’s support, and he basically killed an anti-Klan plank...they just kept going until they finally, both of them withdrew.” [05:02]

2. The Two Candidates’ Philosophies and Strategies

[06:35–08:20]

• Biden:
  • Seeks unity, appeals to independents and swing voters.
  • Embracing a broader coalition and traditional Democratic base.
• Sanders:
  • Focus on expanding the electorate, particularly among the young and disengaged.
  • Pushes the party left on policy, self-identifies as a "democratic socialist."
  • Amy Davidson Sorkin: “Biden is going to have to make some choices about how he talks about Bernie... It’s not gonna be enough now to just be the decent kind human being who you’d rather have in the White House than Donald Trump.” [07:27]
• Inter-party Tension:
  • The divide is not existential but tests the flexibility and future direction of the party.

3. Bernie Sanders: Identity, Socialism, and His Movement

[08:31–15:26]

• Protest Candidate:
  • Sanders’ outsider identity draws passionate support, but limits mainstream appeal.
    • Michael Kazin: “He is a protest candidate against his party’s establishment... They demand that you believe that their protests can be turned into effective governance.” [09:38]
• Democratic Socialism Explained:
  • Sanders evokes Eugene Debs and FDR, but in ideology, he is closer to European social democrats than to revolutionary socialists.
    • Michael Kazin: “He’s become more of what Europeans would call a social democrat... He wants the kind of thing that citizens of Denmark and Finland, Sweden, and Germany take for granted.” [11:18]
• Why Not Call Himself a Liberal?
  • Liberalism is seen as defensive, more aligned with cultural/racial identity issues, while Sanders emphasizes economic inequality and working-class uplift.
    • Michael Kazin: “Liberalism has become associated since the 1960s with a very defensive kind of politics... Bernie is very much about economic uplift, economic power for working people.” [13:43]
• Why is ‘Socialism’ Suddenly Popular with the Young?
  • Disillusionment post–Great Recession and the limited achievements of presidents called "socialist" by detractors (like Obama).
  • Desire for bold solutions to issues like climate change.
    • Michael Kazin: “A lot of young people want something which will really be a break with a system they feel has not served them... Let’s try something really different from capitalism.” [15:26]

4. Sanders’ Transformative Effect on the Democratic Party

[17:16–18:32]

• Policy Influence:
  • Sanders’ platforms have moved the party to the left on health care, student debt, climate change, and labor.
  • All major Democratic candidates now support robust public options or Medicare for All.
    • Michael Kazin: “On health care, for example, every candidate on the stage... were for a robust public option or Medicare for all.” [17:30]
• New Political Baseline:
  • The Democratic Party is closer than ever to European-style social democracy.
• Electoral Reality:
  • Even if Sanders loses, his ideas are entrenched. A loss as significant as McGovern’s 1972 defeat could push the party away from these ideas, but that seems unlikely.

5. The Road Ahead: Unity, Division, and Practicalities

[18:55–21:55]

• Who Will Win?
  • Both Sanders and Biden are seen as weak in some respects; race remains uncertain, reminiscent of the tight Clinton–Obama contest in 2008.
• How Can Sanders Broaden Appeal?
  • May need to moderate stances (e.g., Medicare for All transition), to reassure anxious or moderate voters.
    • Michael Kazin: “He has to find some way within himself...to make people feel that he is not going to do away with things they care about.” [20:32]
• Party Unity at Stake:
  • Historical pattern: divided conventions lead to electoral defeat for Democrats.
    • Michael Kazin: “A divided party, a party this divided at the convention, never has won in American politics.” [21:49]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Amy Davidson Sorkin on Superdelegates:
  “Is that a conspiracy or is that a party acting like a party?” [03:29]
• On Democratic Process:
  “There are a lot of ways that the democracy here is imperfect.” – Amy Davidson Sorkin [03:56]
• On Biden's Strategic Challenge:
  “It’s not gonna be enough now to just be the decent kind human being who you’d rather have in the White House than Donald Trump.” – Amy Davidson Sorkin [07:32]
• On Sanders’ Paradox:
  “He is a protest candidate... But that’s also a drawback because... Democrats are primarily concerned... with the short term aim of making sure Donald Trump doesn’t get a second term.” – Michael Kazin [09:38]
• On Sanders’ Ideological Evolution:
  “He’s become more of what Europeans would call a social democrat, though that term has never been really popular in this country.” – Michael Kazin [11:18]
• The Party’s Shift:
  “He’s already transformed the party. The only way I think he won’t transform the party is if he gets nominated and loses the way George McGovern lost in 1972.” – Michael Kazin [17:30]
• On the Difficulty of Prediction:
  “I like to say as a historian, I don't have to predict the future, so I only have to explain the past, which is difficult enough.” – Michael Kazin [19:09]
• On Party Division:
  “A divided party, a party this divided at the convention, never has won in American politics.” – Michael Kazin [21:49]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:15–06:35: The mechanics of the Democratic primary and conventions; role of pledged delegates and superdelegates; history of contested conventions.
• 06:35–08:20: Biden and Sanders' arguments for electability; risks and opportunities for party unity.
• 08:31–17:16: Sanders’ identity as a “democratic socialist,” the historical context, and his ideological evolution.
• 17:16–18:32: How Sanders has already shifted the Democratic Party’s platform and direction.
• 18:55–21:55: The future for Sanders and Biden; questions of unity, division, and campaign strategy.

Takeaways

• The Biden–Sanders showdown reflects enduring Democratic tensions between centrist pragmatism and progressive vision.
• The primary/caucus process (especially the role of superdelegates) is imperfect and, in many ways, undemocratic.
• Sanders’ identity as a democratic socialist both energizes and limits his coalition, while shifting the policy conversation party-wide.
• Both Biden and Sanders face challenges in unifying the Democratic Party and appealing to a broad November electorate.
• History warns that deep party divisions can doom campaigns; calls for unity remain urgent as the convention nears.

This episode offers a clear, accessible primer for listeners seeking to understand the stakes, structures, and fault lines of the Democratic primary as it condensed to a two-candidate race.