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The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Ariel Levy and Ryan Lizza on rape and politics.
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Ariel Levy and Ryan Lizza on rape and politics.
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- [00:00]
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- [01:15]
Dorothy Wickenden
This is the Political Scene, a weekly conversation with New Yorker writers and editors about Politics. It's Thursday, August 1st. I'm Dorothy Wickenden, executive editor of the New Yorker.
- [01:24]
Ryan Lizza
We find out somebody's engaging in this stuff, they got to be held accountable, prosecuted, stripped of their positions, court martialed, fired, dishonorably discharged.
- [01:38]
Ariel Levy
Period.
- [01:39]
Dorothy Wickenden
That was President Obama in May, responding to a Pentagon report that estimated that 26,000 service members were sexually assaulted last year. Senator Kirsten Gillibrand of New York has been pushing a bill that would give military prosecutors rather than commanders the power to decide which cases to try. She spoke last month at a press conference announcing the legislation.
- [02:00]
Ariel Levy
If the victims do not trust the chain of command, they will not report these cases. If they've witnessed other people reporting being retaliated against, they will not trust the system that the chain of command has put into place.
- [02:12]
Dorothy Wickenden
Ariel Levy and Ryan Lizza are here today to talk about the politics of sexual assault in the military and in civilian culture. Aria, I want to start with you because in the current issue you have a piece about the Steubenville case where two high school football stars were found delinquent in juvenile court for raping an inebriated teenager, among other things. You write about rape culture. What does that term mean?
- [02:35]
Ariel Levy
Well, I think the easiest way to talk about it is sort of inaction as opposed to in abstract definition. I think that rape culture in action simply means taking a situation where a woman, by virtue of the progress that our society has made over the last hundred years, where a woman is in a situation where something has nothing to do with sex and where sex is forced upon her. So that could be in this case, you know, we have a kid who's drunk and she's too inebriated to have any idea what's happening or to consent. But I think what we're talking about in the military, you know, I mean, I think of Tailhook when we had women who had, against every obstacle, managed to get into positions of relative power in the military, being told, you're still just about sex, you're still here for sex, and we're going to strip you of your professionalism and your public identity by reducing you to that.
- [03:33]
Dorothy Wickenden
Ryan, since Ari's brought it up, because I did want to talk about Tailhook, because this all goes back essentially to that Tailhook convention, which was over two decades ago. Paula Coughlin, a lieutenant, was one of the women attacked in that inebriated event, and she went on TV to demand that the attackers be brought to justice. The Navy insisted it had a zero tolerance policy, but no one was ever criminally prosecuted for the attacks. Obviously, huge amounts has changed since then, including putting women in combat positions. But the number of reported sexual assaults keeps growing. So how has the military tried to deal with this never ending problem, it seems over the subsequent years?
- [04:13]
Ryan Lizza
Yeah, Tailhook was really the event that put this on the radar for so many people. You know, this was a convention in Vegas where there was just rampant sexual assault and misbehavior by a lot of male members of the military. And there was one famous incident where Lt. Gary Mandich, who was at the event, and he later told participants, you know, everyone needs to lighten up over this. What do they expect? This is Vegas, baby. They call this symposium Tail Hook for a reason. And that sort of captured what seemed to be the prevailing view of sexual assault in the military at the time. Remember, this was the Gulf War, where more women were serving in prominent positions, though not in combat. And so the military was dealing with, integrated the military in a new way. And the initial investigation of Tailhook basically said this was, oh, this was just a few lower ranking midshipmen and there was nothing to do. There was a subsequent more serious investigation. But like you say, no one was ever criminally prosecuted. And then, you know, some of what changed afterwards was the Senate in 1991, when Tailhook happened.
- [05:23]
Ariel Levy
There were this same year as Anita.
- [05:25]
Ryan Lizza
Hill, by the way, right after Anita Hill. So that was another part of the national conversation. And There were only three women in the Senate then in the 1992 election, which was known as the year of the woman, because there were a grand total of five U.S. senators elected in 92. And I think what's different now about what could happen in the wake of this Pentagon report about the huge increase in sexual assaults is you now have 20 women in the US Senate and you actually have five women on the Senate Armed Services Committee, which oversees this. And, you know, they're very active right now. There's a pretty robust debate about what to do about this.
- [06:02]
Dorothy Wickenden
Remind us what happened in May when all of this broke out once again and it catalyzed, especially the female, these half a dozen basically female senators who have really been extremely vocal about sexual crimes in the military.
- [06:15]
Ryan Lizza
Well, as you point out, the Defense Department put out this report. You know, 6% of women and 1.2% of men had said they had experienced sexual assault. So some people say the rise, maybe we might have more reporting than previous, but it was a big jump up from the last time they studied this. And that led to President Obama making a statement about this Chuck Hagel saying he was going to get Secretary.
- [06:38]
Dorothy Wickenden
Secretary of Defense.
- [06:39]
Ryan Lizza
Yeah, his Secretary of Defense. And then several, especially female senators, but not just female senators on the Armed Service Committee coming out with proposals to do something about it and even holding up Obama nominations over this and hauling some top members of the military before the Senate Armed Service Committee and very aggressively questioning them and telling the Pentagon it needs to clean up its act. So now the debate is what to do about it. And there's a debate among and really one that does not really break down along the usual ideological divide, a debate about, you know, how to fix the system at the Pentagon for prosecuting these cases.
- [07:14]
Dorothy Wickenden
Yeah. So talk a little bit more about what Senator Gillibrand is proposing and also why Senator Claire McCaskill of Missouri, of all people, also on the Armed Services Committee, who has been vocal about this issue, why she opposes it.
- [07:27]
Ryan Lizza
Well, the Gillibrand proposal would have all sex offenders in the military discharged from service and then it would replace the system they have there now and take it outside the chain of command. The argument is women don't want to come forward because their superiors will be the ones prosecuting these cases and that you have to take it out of that system and the military doesn't want to do that. So McCaskill and other folks are listening to the Pentagon who say, no, you can't do that. You can't take it outside the chain of command. And there are Republicans, there are frankly Republicans and Democrats on both sides of that question.
- [08:01]
Dorothy Wickenden
And Hagel, you know, he's argued for a cultural change, but he doesn't really wants to stick with the command structure overseeing.
- [08:08]
Ariel Levy
But he's made such a good point. I mean, he's the one who said that, you know, we're nearing the stage where this happens so often and the perception that there's tolerance of it is going to start hurting our ability to attract qualified women who are 15% of active duty forces into the military. When you have an all volunteer military, that's a real problem. There have been many interviews with women who've been through these situations in the military and not gotten justice, where they've said, okay, I would not recommend to any woman that she joined because of this. And I think that's exactly what Hagel's talking about when he says this is going to become a national security issue, a military issue, if we can't tell women, you will be safe protecting your country from the men in your midst.
- [08:47]
Dorothy Wickenden
So. Well, that's interesting, Ari. So what do you think about what Senator Gillibrand is proposing?
- [08:52]
Ariel Levy
I mean, I think Gillibrand's plan is really. It gets to the point of, I mean, we're back to this rape culture thing. I mean, Tailhook, the same year that happens, Anita Hill happens, which is the same thing again of a woman in a position of power, hard won, who's reduced to a sexual, you know, object, and there's no other word for it. Sounds trite at this point, but that's what it is. And what Gillibrand is saying is, okay, if you have a culture where people don't think they can get any justice, give them an alternate system. And I think that makes perfect sense. And I think, I mean, that is what vigilantes thought they were doing with the Steubenville case, right? Was saying, okay, we have no faith that justice is going to be served, so we're going to just create an alternate system through which to adjudicate this.
- [09:35]
Dorothy Wickenden
So talk a little bit more about that. Steubenville is a complicated case culturally, in terms of class, everything else. And it did show that victims of rape now have entire communities online and otherwise basically informally prosecuting their cases, which is not always a helpful way of getting to the truth about the assault.
- [09:55]
Ariel Levy
Well, here's the problem with it. I think there's a misperception that there's a big problem with false reports of rape. It almost never actually happens. Because I think most women rationally understand that if what you want is, you know, some kind of sympathy or something like that, you're probably not going to get it by accusing somebody of rape. I mean, that's just not the way it happens. And I think sort of sensationalist cases like Tawana Brawley or whatever hang on to people's imaginations forever for decades. So when you have a situation like Steubenville where there is a crime and it should be punished, but what happens online is that people completely misconstrue the specifics of the case. It lends credence to the notion that rape is overblown as a phenomenon in this country and that anything you hear about it isn't quite true. And in Steubenville, what we heard wasn't quite true. And that's a failing on the part of the mainstream media as much as the blogosphere.
- [10:55]
Dorothy Wickenden
Ryan all of this brings us back to the increasingly strange politics of, or ever strange politics of social issues. The wild comments of Representative Todd Akin about legitimate rape, as he called it, helped Claire McCaskill defeat him in the 2012 Senate race. Yet, as Jeffrey Toobin wrote in last week's issue, Texas has just passed an anti abortion bill that resembles measures in half a dozen states, very conservative measures. What is going on politically with all of this?
- [11:26]
Ryan Lizza
This gets to this phenomenon I wrote about a few months ago with that John Hickenlooper profile. You know, you basically have the governor of Colorado, you basically have the country moving in two opposite directions on these social issues. And we have a historically high number of states that are one party control. And so you've got a whole lot of red states run by a Republican governor and a Republican legislature, and a whole lot of blue states run by all Democrats. You know, my example in that Hickenlooper piece was Colorado, which is moving left on, you know, as they say out there, guns, gays and pot. And then you've got other conservative states which are going the opposite direction and clamping down, increasing restrictions on abortion, pushing back against the movement towards gay marriage, and on other social issues, just generally Running to the right. North Carolina is another example, even though at the presidential level, that state is becoming more Democratic, but it's run by Republicans right now, and they're passing a whole slew of conservative laws, especially on social issues. And so, you know, I think the Republican Party, like, on so many of these issues, it's torn at the elite level, they're trying to attract more women, they're trying to downplay social issues, especially abortion, and they're trying to shame and kick out of the party people who make crazy comments like Akin did. On the other hand, the base of the party is still very anti abortion and is successfully passing laws all over the country to increase restrictions on abortion. You know, similar thing on immigration. An elite level, they want to attract Hispanics and they want to move towards some kind of comprehensive immigration reform. But at the grassroots, the grassroots is basically just saying no. So I think that's the sort of big structural thing that's happening. Although in Washington, the leadership is doing a slightly better job of calling out and shaming some of the crazier remarks that you mentioned.
- [13:22]
Dorothy Wickenden
So, Ari, where is the conversation about rape culture going, both in the military and in our culture at large?
- [13:30]
Ariel Levy
Well, I don't know if it is going here, but where it ought to go is to a very deep level about perceptions of female sexuality. I mean, I wouldn't say that's where it is going, but I mean, I think that's what would be useful here is to. Is to talk about, okay, what are the similarities between Steubenville and the military? And why have things gotten worse and not better in the military? You know, why are the numbers going up and not down? Why is rape still underreported? I mean, that's something I don't think we've touched on, is that the groups that try to measure this say that 54% of sexual assault is not reported ever. And I think that that discussion has to happen culture wide. And I think some of it has to start with sexual education, with comprehensive sexual education for boys and girls. I mean, that's where I think we should be going, is starting with how we educate our kids about this stuff.
- [14:23]
Dorothy Wickenden
Okay, thank you. Both Ariel Levy and Ryan Lizza are staff writers. This has been the political scene from the New Yorker. I'm Dorothy Wickenden.
- [14:31]
Ryan Lizza
You can subscribe to this and other free New Yorker podcasts in the itunes store. The weekly audio edition of the magazine is available at audible.com Subscribers can read the magazine online at new yorker.com and also in the Tablet edition on the iPad and the Kindle Fire.
- [14:54]
David Remnick
Right now, we are living through some of the most tumultuous political times our country has ever known. I'm David Remnick, and each week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, I'll try to make sense of what's happening alongside politicians and thinkers like Cory Booker, Nancy Pelosi, Liz Cheney, Tim Waltz, Ketanji Brown Jackson, Newt Gingrich, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Charlemagne, tha God, and so many more. That's all in the New Yorker Radio Hour wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [15:25]
Ariel Levy
From prx.