← The Political Scene | The New Yorker
The Political Scene | The New Yorker
As Trump Faces Charges, Who Is in Control of the Republican Party?
00:35:28
As Trump Faces Charges, Who Is in Control of the Republican Party?
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- [00:00]
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- [01:15]
Jane Mayer
Can we discuss the fact that Evan is yet again ahead of the pack on his yacht beat? I mean, you know, who knew that the biggest story breaking was going to be about Clarence Thomas and his w a yacht belonging to billionaire Harlan Crow island hopping in Indonesia. Just one of the many, many, many, many, many undisclosed gifts that Justice Thomas and his wife seem to have taken from the very generous Harlan Crow.
- [01:46]
Susan Glasser
Now, you've written about yachts, Evan, but have you written?
- [01:50]
Evan Osnos
Not nearly enough on a yacht like that in my personal estimation.
- [01:54]
Susan Glasser
What's so funny, right, is that, you know, the old adage Harry Truman's was, if you want a friend in Washington.
- [01:59]
Jane Mayer
You should get a dog, is the saying. Now, if you want a friend in washing.
- [02:04]
Susan Glasser
Exactly. Or at least somebody with a private plane and a private jet.
- [02:14]
Evan Osnos
Welcome to the Political Scene, a weekly discussion about the big questions in American politics. I'm Evan Osnos and I'm joined by my colleagues Jane Mayer and Susan Glasser. Hi, Jane.
- [02:24]
Jane Mayer
Hey, Evan.
- [02:25]
Evan Osnos
Hey, Susan.
- [02:25]
Susan Glasser
Hi, guys. Great to be with you.
- [02:33]
Evan Osnos
Here are some words I've never uttered before. Former President Donald Trump was arraigned this week and pleaded not guilty to 34 felony counts.
- [02:42]
Susan Glasser
He has now, we are told, touchdown. As you can see, his aircraft here at LaGuardia Airport. In just moments, former President Donald Trump will leave his penthouse apartment at Trumptown.
- [02:53]
Jane Mayer
Here's Donald Trump walking through the hallway. Let's listen to see if he speaks to reporters. There he is.
- [02:57]
Evan Osnos
Let's just watch. But Trump's big week of legal drama also revealed something critical. There is a vacuum of leadership at the top of the Republican Party. Whether he's there or not. You heard it or didn't hear it in the way that the party leaders responded to his arraignment. Some chose to condemn just the prosecution in order to appease his followers, and others said nothing at all. It seemed very much like a group of people struggling to make sense of their collective future, with or without Trump at the center of it. So today we thought we'd look at who exactly is in charge of the Republican Party right now and where are they taking it. So, to start with, guys, could we just take a minute to process this week? It feels like this is the first time in a while that we've had such a fully Trump centric moment in national news. Whether we like it or not, it feels a little bit like 2020 all over again. Susan, what did you make of the coverage of Trump's trip to Manhattan?
- [03:59]
Susan Glasser
I'm still exhausted by it. I don't know about you, but talk about breathless incrementalism. I think that's what I called it in my column. Literally, step by step, he's crossed the lobby, he's pressing the button of the elevator. News. Practically watching paint dry in some respects, in the sense that there was very little news except the fact of the arraignment itself. What we were waiting for was the details of the charges in the case. And yet you literally had the cable anchors for hours giving us updates. My favorite one was when they breathlessly announced that Donald Trump had had to open the door by himself once he was inside the courthouse building. And I thought, wow, we've really. Is this what it's gonna be like? And, you know, those pictures are very dramatic. I do think of Donald Trump essentially in the custody of the courthouse officials. The courtroom drawing made New Yorker history this week, I should say, by being the very first time, in fact, that a courtroom drawing has been used as the COVID of the New Yorker's print magazine. And it is. It's a very haunting, compelling image. Trump does not look like a happy warrior in that SCENE FROM INSIDE THE COURTROOM Even as he and his people were sort of milking the moment for all it's worth raising something, they're claiming $10 million is what they raised off of, you know, once again ginning up the idea that he's this, you know, poor Trump, he's a victim. And for a man whose entire politics are around grievance, and if he doesn't have a grievance, inventing a grievance, well, here's a new grievance that he's got. But so it's exhausting. I'm not sure how much of this will matter. I'm not sure that we'll even remember a lot of this. If there are other indictments for it's coming, this may well end up being sort of an asterisk in history, albeit a very important one.
- [05:57]
Evan Osnos
Jane as you know, we're right at the beginning of this process. The judge has named the next date on the calendar in December for this case. So a lot is gonna happen between now and then. How much were you able to absorb, stomach, tolerate? What did you watch this week and what did you make of.
- [06:14]
Jane Mayer
I just was reminded of how in high school plays you are stuck on the stage where I remember they told us as extras to say rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb, because it looks like you're talking. And it was as if these talking heads were just filling the airwave saying rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb. There was nothing to say for hours and hours and hours. And meanwhile, I mean, I hate to it's a cliche by now to say that Trump has sucked up all the oxygen in American politics. But, you know, there were quite a few other things that were going on that might be even as momentous in some ways. You know, I mean, there was Finland has joined NATO, which may make a difference in the actual larger world. There was a tremendously interesting election taking place on the same day in Wisconsin where a Supreme Court justice who on the a Democrat was sort of blew away the 15 year hold of the conservative Republicans on that court in a swing state that may have great implications for 2024 and proved that abortion is actually an issue that seems to have a lot of traction out there in the post Dobbs decision period here. So, I mean, there was a lot else going on, but you would never know it, at least from watching cable television. And so I hate to be a killjoy because I know that for some people it was kind of a reunion of the Trump show getting the old gang back together again and just talk, talk, talking all day long and all night long about the same thing.
- [07:50]
Evan Osnos
But there was, as you say, I think you captured it. There was that feeling of, and Susan mentioned it, too. There's a sort of sense of it that the show is exhausted and the script has kind of run out a bit there. And I think you saw this really fascinating way in which the Republican Party leadership decided to talk about this or not talk about. I mean, just you take a few of the responses. You had Kevin McCarthy, who this week, after all, was doing actually something of rather significant geopolitical consequence, meeting with Tsai Ing Wen, Taiwan's president. But you had him warning that Alvin Bragg, the prosecutor in Manhattan, will be, quote, held accountable by Congress. But you had a whole range of different reactions, Ron DeSantis, Mike Pence, Marjorie Taylor Greene and so on.
- [08:32]
Jane Mayer
But did you hear in that whole range of reaction from the Republican leadership that where was the person standing up and saying, this is the rule of law. Let the process run? We believe in the process. There was no defender of the rule of law in this country. That I heard anyway. That's right.
- [08:52]
Susan Glasser
But that's what's notable. That's what's notable here is that as much as we all found the Trump show exhausting or it's run out of steam, the politics have gone in a pretty striking way in the other direction inside the Republican Party itself. And that, I think, is an important dynamic to understand, even if it doesn't make any sense to us. You know, you have even Republican critics of Donald Trump who have now once again been compelled by whatever their internal rationale is to step up and actually defend Donald Trump. And you've seen that from Mike Pence. You saw that even from Mitt Romney, who's the only Republican to vote to convict Donald Trump in the first Senate impeachment trial of him. Romney is absolutely a critic of Trump, and even he issued a statement criticizing what he and other Republicans have called an apparently political decision by Alvin Bragg. Now, I'm quite curious what will happen if and when Trump is indicted on other charges that go more directly to the question of his attack on the legitimacy of the 2020 election in Georgia or at the federal level by the Department of Justice. He faces serious legal j jeopardy in both those cases. But I have to say, this dynamic is so painfully familiar of there is a little daylight that opens up between Donald Trump and at least some of the Republican elected officials, some of the Republican leaders, and then once again, an event occurs that forces them to choose sides, and they pick Trump every time. And that's how the country's in this mess.
- [10:30]
Evan Osnos
There's this dynamic where you have a lot of leaders. You mentioned Mitt Romney a moment ago, who are doing things that seem to be more supportive of Trump than their previous positions would dictate or require. Which leads us to the question, Jane, are they in touch with their voters? Are they further to the right of their voters? Are they responding to their voters? Who's driving the bus on that?
- [10:52]
Jane Mayer
It's reminiscent a little bit of the famous saying that came from. It was one of the French Revolution's leaders who said, there go the people. I must follow them, for I am their leader. You can sort of see them running after the base. And I think you can see that the leadership is itself. You know, it's throwing in its lot with Trump. And what can we say? We're waiting, and we've waited for this entire period to see them stand up to him. But they are enablers. They have been, and I really wouldn't hold my breath to see them do anything else.
- [11:28]
Susan Glasser
It seems to me that it's not just as simple as a story of the Republican Party leaders following after the vast mob of Republican voters. There's a fanatic core of their party that has become essentially the Trump Republican Party, the superfans, if you will, of Donald Trump, who are at the most motivated center of the Republican Party right now. They're not necessarily even a majority of the Republican electorate, and yet that's the group of Republicans that their leaders have chosen to go after again and again and again. And I think that's where you have us with a situation where the party is becoming even more extreme than the voters. The voters are pretty extreme, but the leadership is even more extreme. And I think that explains a lot of the otherwise inexplicable behavior. You're endorsing a minority again and again and again.
- [12:21]
Evan Osnos
One big Republican figure who we really haven't heard very much from at all. In fact, we've heard not a peep on the subject of Trump's arraignment is Mitch McConnell, after all, the Senate minority leader. He's, of course, recovering from a concussion that he suffered during a fall in March, but his silence really is notable. Somehow he managed to find time to put out a statement this week welcoming Finland into NATO, but nothing on Trump's indictment, which is quite conspicuous. The Hill had a piece by Alex Bolton that was headlined, mcconnell Lets an Indicted Trump Twist in the Wind. I Thought there was something to that. So why is McConnell, in a sense, staying silent around Trump's indictment? Susan, why don't you share your thoughts on that first?
- [13:05]
Susan Glasser
Well, first of all, let's remember that at this point, Mitch McConnell is probably enemy number one for Donald Trump. And his animus towards Mitch McConnell is far greater than that of his animus towards almost all people, including Democrats. When we interviewed Trump for our book, there was no one he brought up more unprompted than Mitch McConnell. He sees McConnell, and I think correctly, by the way, as his main enemy inside the Republican Party. Sort of a rear guard faction leader of what you might call the last stand of the Republican Institutionalists. Anytime Trump has one of his rallies, in his voluminous Truth social posts, he's often mentioning Mitch and various derogatory nicknames. He's taken to attacking McConnell's wife, who served in Trump's Cabinet, by the way, all four years until she resigned in protest after January 6th. So. So Mitch McConnell's enemy number one for Donald Trump. And yet it's a complicated story, to Jane's point, about the enablers. He's both disavowed Donald Trump and he hasn't. And you see that in this dance. You pointed out that McConnell's been absent since early March because of a concussion. So important, he is sort of what passes for the Republican leadership at this moment in time. Right? He's kind of the senior figure, the one with the most power. If there is gonna be and any kind of big deal with Democrats, with the White House, it's gonna have to be done with McConnell. And here he is, he's not even in action. One of my sources on Capitol Hill who follows this very closely, I was asking, what are the consequences of this? And he said, you can't possibly overstate how significant this is, that he thinks that McConnell remains the irreplaceable man for Republicans and even for the country. He knows Democrats hate the guy. People are infuriated with him for his enabling, but without him, things like support for the war in Ukraine, the ability to keep the government funded and open and running and able to pay its debts, they might not be able to happen because the rest of the Republican Party doesn't even wanna talk to the.
- [15:09]
Evan Osnos
White House and to the specific relationship between McConnell and Trump. There was this immortal moment when Trump was in his second impeachment and McConnell voted to acquit, but then uncorked this condemnation of Trump in no uncertain terms. President Trump is still liable for everything he did while he was in office as an ordinary citizen, unless the statute of limitations is run, still liable for everything he did while he's in office didn't get away with anything yet. Yet we have a criminal justice system in this country. We have civil litigation. And former presidents are not immune from being accountable by either one. Jane, you have reported extensively on McConnell from every angle over the years. One of your long pieces described him as Trump's enabler in chief. How do you think about this dynamic between the two and the moment that McConnell now finds himself in as a player ultimately in the decision about how much to move on or not move on from Trump?
- [16:20]
Jane Mayer
Everybody who knows McConnell knows that what drives him is an urge to win. And what he wants more than anything is to return to being the Senate Majority Leader. He wants to be back in power as Majority Leader and wants to see the Republicans sweep the Senate again. And for most of Trump's presidency, the they had a co dependency. You might think of it as kind of like one of the most fateful codependencies in American history in some ways. But they both wanted to win and they needed each other. There's a phrase that's been used to describe the kind of politics of the Republican Party right now, which is plutocratic populism. In that equation, McConnell is the plutocrats. He brings in the money to the party and as Susan says, he knows how to make things happen. He knows how to keep the TR trains running, he knows how to get the budgets through, he knows how to get the funding for Ukraine, he knows government. He is cagey, he's smart, he's a long term thinker, he's way thinking many, many chess moves ahead. But he doesn't have the popular touch. I mean, he doesn't, you know, he's not a charismatic figure in the slightest. He barely speaks a lot of the time. And then you've got Trump who talks before he's even thought at all about where it's going. He's impulsive, but the crowds love him. And the two of them together became an unhappy, inseparable pair. But then when Trump lost the election, it started falling apart. By December of 2020, there was an incredible phone call that was reported on by Bob Woodward first, I think, in which Trump, Trump was yelling at McConnell for not supporting the big lie, claiming that Trump had won. And McConnell in his terse way just said, you lost the election and hung up. I think they haven't spoken since then, supposedly. And at that point, I mean, what was very important was Trump's antics, his claims, his false claims about the election helped lose the the Senate majority for McConnell. They were no longer winning together. Trump was losing the Senate for McConnell. And we saw two Democrats elected from Georgia to the Senate, and the majority slipped away from McConnell's hands. And they have been at war ever since, privately. But at least McConnell, I think you can judge from the silence from him. He still thinks he needs to not take on Trump forcefully and publicly. And the idea that the leader of the Republicans in the Senate says nothing, I think you could say he's letting Trump twist in the wind. You could also say it's a very weak position for somebody who's supposed to be the leading figure of the opposition to Trump within the Republican Party. There's no voice there.
- [19:31]
Evan Osnos
What's amazing, too, is that their last contact, right, that conversation we talked about December of 2020, and then you have now this moment in which Trump is in the dock in court and Mitch McConnell is recovering from an injury that reminds us of the fact that he's 81 years old. And we are approaching a point when there is going to be a transition of leadership. And I think, Susan, this seems to be one of those moments that forces us to talk about, to use your phrase of a moment ago, if Mitch McConnell is the irreplaceable man in the Senate Republican leadership, well, then who does replace him? And how does that play out? What does that do to the party?
- [20:16]
Susan Glasser
You know, it's very interesting, Evan, because actually, in the Aftermath of the 2022 midterms, a bunch of Trump allies in the Senate actually did go after Mitch McConnell, including Rick Scott, who was the Senate campaign chairman from Florida, and a number of sort of new generation of Republican firebrands. Some of the younger folks in the Senate, people like Josh Hawley, they went after Mitch McConnell, and they failed. Now, of course, Mitch McConnell is definitely a believer in the role, like, if you're gonna kill the king, kill the king. So they've now made clearly permanent and lasting enemies of McConnell. But it certainly put some numbers on the board to help us understand how strong is what you might call the more institutional or establishment faction. And the answer is it's still dominant among Senate Republicans, but it is losing ground bit by bit. It was very significant. When Roy Blunt of Missouri retired rather than run again for his Senate seat, he was somebody seen as one of McConnell's chief lieutenants. McConnell already an octogenarian. So this transition is happening, and the party is moving inside the Senate as it is moving nationally in a much more aggressive Trumpy direction. And I think that's where you have the fear of this dynamic growing of even more extreme leaders in the Republican Party, pulling the party even farther in the direction of its most radical minority. And I think that's a dynamic that we can expect to go on in the future for sure.
- [21:52]
Jane Mayer
I have to say, just as a regular old reporter, I really do think it's amazing that we don't know more about McConnell's health right now. There's been very little in depth reporting on whatever it is that's really going on with him. We know he's recovering from a concussion and I have to say, a member of my family recently had a concussion. I know that can take a really long time. It varies a lot. The average Recovery takes about 14 days, but some people, for some people it goes on for months. So I.
- [22:25]
Evan Osnos
Well, it'll be a big question about whether, whether we see him back at the sort of latter half of April. That'll be one of the determining, one of the indicators about how his health really is.
- [22:35]
Susan Glasser
I mean, they have been very tight lipped and that is notable. The expectation is that when the Senate returns from its Easter recess that he'll be there. If he isn't there, I think that will cause a big kind of stirring moment and it really does come back to the business of the country and the question of who there is even to be a leader that Democrats can sit down with. To Evan's point, even if he comes back in mid April, he's not going to be the Republican leader in the Senate forever. And that's the problem of course, you're facing in the Democratic Party with Joe Biden already age 80, Mitch McConnell age 81. These folks, they can't run the country forever. And the transition in many ways is even more nerve wracking than the nerve wracking status quo.
- [23:26]
Evan Osnos
The political scene will be back in just a moment.
- [23:33]
Katie Drummond
What the hell is going on right now and why is it happening like this? At Wired, we're obsessed with getting to the bottom of those questions on a daily basis. And maybe you are too. I'm Katie Drummond, the global editorial director of Wired and I'm hosting our new podcast series, the Big Interview. Each week I'll sit down with some of the most interesting, provocative and influential people who are shaping our right now. Big Interview conversations are fun.
- [24:01]
Evan Osnos
I want a shark that, that eats.
- [24:03]
Katie Drummond
The Internet, that turns it all off, unfiltered and unafraid.
- [24:06]
Evan Osnos
So in a lot of ways I try to be an antidote to the unimaginable faucet of reactionary content that you see online. To the best of my ability, every.
- [24:15]
Katie Drummond
Week, we're going to offer you the ultimate luxury of our times. Meaning and context. True or false? You, Brian Johnson, the man sitting across from me, one day, at some point, as of yet undefined in the future, you will die.
- [24:32]
Evan Osnos
False.
- [24:33]
Jane Mayer
Tell me more.
- [24:34]
Katie Drummond
Listen to the big interview right now in the same place you find WIRED's Uncanny Valley podcast. Subscribe or follow wherever you get your podcasts.
- [24:47]
Evan Osnos
So then that's the perfect place for us to go to the next question here, which is let's go beyond these individual characters, the Trump and McConnell personally, and think about what the implications are for the country. I mean, we have to ask how much is the Republican Party that they have led and shaped actually in touch with regular people? I mean, how much does it actually, Jane, reflect the views of people on the ground, whether that's what we see reflected in electoral results or in polls of public attitudes? How do you think that the party, its leadership relates to where the American public actually is? I mean, is it that in fact these two have been holding this party back more than it would be were they not there?
- [25:33]
Jane Mayer
Well, I mean, I think what you see is a gap between the activists in the party, and it's actually true of both parties and the sort of vast majority of American voters. And so what you see on the Republican side is the Trumpist activists on many, many issues are out of touch with the vast majority of voters, including many Republican voters on all kinds of issues on issues ranging from abortion, where even in red Texas, it's something like seven out of 10 people who've been polled recently want there to be legal access to abortion. You see it on guns over and over again, even on issues that are sort of supposed to be culture war issues. Drag queens, most people don't care about drag queens and they don't really support the idea of banning them. But a certain activist base does. And those are often the people that get out to the polls, particularly in primaries. So you see a lot of red meat being thrown their way by the sort of the Trumpist activist leaders.
- [26:50]
Susan Glasser
Yeah. And it's not just Trump. We should point out. Right, Jane, that this is a phenomenon that has been going on for a long time. Right. That this is you have Republican state legislatures endorsing culture war type bills. You have on abortion, on gun control. This is a dynamic that you've seen in the Republican Party for a long time. And the numbers are extraordinary. Right. Where it's not Just, you know, some sort of small faction, but you know, something like 40% of Republicans, even to this day, even after we've had this partisan sifting of America, Pew found nearly 40% of Republicans say that abortion should be legal in all or most cases. That's even today, even after we've had this incredible polarization in the country. And yet you have Republican dominated state legislatures all across the south in the wake of the overturning of Roe vs. Wade, who have now essentially made the South a no go zone for abortion. That's to going clearly not supported even by the Republican electorate in those states. And so I just, I fear that that's kind of the wedge that's driving the country apart, that it's. We talk a lot about the Republican base, but sometimes I think we don't talk enough about the actions of the Republican leaders, the Republican elected officials, the people who are in positions of power in the Republican Party also bear a lot of responsibility for where it's gone.
- [28:14]
Jane Mayer
Basically what you've seen is what I guess Jared Kushner called the hostile takeover of the Republican Party by the Trump forces. And so you've seen the rise now into leadership roles of people like Marjorie Taylor Greene. And they are Trumpist to the core and they're no longer just the base and the outsiders. They've actually gotten themselves elected, gotten themselves into power all over the country. We've seen the Republican parties in the states yield to Trump forces, not 100%. It's been a fight though. And it's been interesting to see that to some extent Trump, who came in as a novice in politics, some of the people around him are now getting pretty good at nuts and bolts takeover of party establishments in the states. So you're right, Susan. I mean, it's not just the base, the that it's now a sizable part of the Republican Party leadership, not all of it, but a sizable part of it.
- [29:18]
Susan Glasser
Well, this is a phenomenon that happens when you have extremist leaders, not just in the United States, but around the world, where essentially you have a takeover by a minority faction of party that is able to co opt the machinery of that party, co opt the infrastructure of that party, pull the decision making apparatus even farther along than the sort of rank and file of the electorate. And so you have a situation where you can see democracies very quickly pivot into something other than a democracy. And I think that's the story that we've observed in this Democratic walk back around the world, frankly. And I think it's happening in our Republican Party as well, there was a.
- [30:01]
Evan Osnos
Great report by Pew that looked at polarization, and what you really see is quite clearly that the leadership of the Republican Party has moved further to the right than their voters have. And you can't understand the recent history of elections, particularly 2022, in which there was just a clear disconnect from where voters were, from what the leadership of the party was talking about, without understanding that gap.
- [30:28]
Jane Mayer
I mean, you see it somewhat on the Democratic side, but that same poll showed that if you look at the two parties, the Republican Party has become much more extreme in its positions than the Democratic Party has. Both have become more extreme than they used to be, more partisan than they used to be. But there's an asymmetry, and the Republican Party is far more so. I mean, and the tragedy is there, it seems like if you looked at the broader population, you might see the possibility for change and for reform on all kinds of issues that people care about, whether it's guns, the environment, there's all kinds of support for all kinds of issues in the middle, but particularly in the Republican Party, the leadership is getting elected by catering to the most extreme views.
- [31:22]
Evan Osnos
One of the frustrations that you hear over and over from people is the sense that there is that our institutions, I mean, beginning with the parties themselves, are accelerants on the fire, that they used to have a modulating effect to some degree of public attitudes. They sort of drive you towards some version of consensus. We could have a whole conversation about the problems of that system. However, the reality is now that there are large numbers of Americans who could reasonably be assembled around some consensus ideas, but there's nobody at the top who is waiting to hear from them.
- [31:55]
Susan Glasser
Now, of course, Joe Biden would say he's going to campaign on reelection as exactly being that person.
- [32:01]
Evan Osnos
Yeah.
- [32:01]
Susan Glasser
And there is some evidence, and of course, there's a record that's the record that he's gonna take to the American people, which is essentially a record of him teaming up with a small number of Republicans as well as Democrats in the House and the Senate over the first couple years of his presidency and getting a certain number of bipartisan things done, things like infrastructure spending, things like the CHIPS act, to bring back certain kind of strategic manufacturing to the United States. And this, I think, is going to be the case that you hear from Joe Biden that I'm the person who can deliver that kind of government. But I keep coming back to, well, who's he going to make future deals with? He made some of those deals with Mitch McConnell, infrastructure being a good example of that. But in the Future, if Mitch McConnell isn't present, as flawed as he is, and you have an entirely new generation of Trumpified Republican leadership in the Senate, if you have the states which have become sort of laboratories of the culture war. Ron DeSantis, Florida is very interesting in this respect. It becomes less and less clear how you would assemble a record like that that Joe Biden has managed to assemble in his first couple years. It's harder to see that even in the short to medium term horizon.
- [33:19]
Evan Osnos
One of the things that I think history does tell us is that if your brand, this may be a rule for the political scene is if your brand is crazy, that may work for you for a while, but it's not very durable. And I think that's one of the things that the party, the Republican Party is contending with is they have some people who have soared to the top using their, call it, the crazy brand. But ultimately, where does that leave you?
- [33:43]
Jane Mayer
I mean, this is why McConnell and Trump needed each other. I mean, and there's a good. I mean, I remember interviewing Bill Kristol, of all people, who said demagogues are no good at governing. They need somebody else to really run a government. They have no idea what to do with it. And that's what McConnell was doing. I mean, we have the running sort of debate. Susan's the pessimist, I'm the sometimes optimist. Maybe Evan. Evan is too.
- [34:14]
Susan Glasser
I'm excited to hear how you get through the opposite on the conversation.
- [34:18]
Jane Mayer
I'll tell you how there are consequences when you overstep, and I think we're looking at them right now with the US Supreme Court's decision on Dobbs. There's a real consequence, and I think you saw it in the 2022 elections also. So, I mean, there is reality out there. It sometimes takes a while for it to catch up with.
- [34:39]
Susan Glasser
If I could just. I know I'm playing my assigned role here, but Dobbs is a good example of it, Jane. It's politically looking not so great for Republicans in certain key swing states. But, you know, there's a real, There's a human cost that's not gonna be undone. In fact, in large swaths of red America, it is now functionally impossible to obtain an abortion. And in fact, they are criminalizing actions by doctors. That's not a silver lining. I mean, you know, what's happening is that in parts of the country there is a significant backlash either in Democratic parts of the country or in.
- [35:15]
Jane Mayer
Sort.
- [35:15]
Susan Glasser
Of what you might call swing states. But unfortunately, I don't see any movement to decriminalize abortion in states in the south that have resurrected say like 19th century laws that criminalize abortion. And they're going in the other direction. I believe next week in Florida, what we're gonna see is a very interesting test for Ron DeSantis future presidential hopes where the Republican state legislature is gonna move on a very restrictive abortion bill because Florida right now had relatively more liberal laws on the books than other Southern states and saw a 38% increase in abortions from people coming into Florida from other states that were banning it entirely after Dobbs. And so my concern is that again, it contributes to the national divorce, that you have a kind of a patchwork picture where in some places it's beneficial to Democrats. The overreach. I think we saw the same story with the Trump candidates in 2022. All Trump backed candidates didn't lose. In fact, in many red states, the crazier or the more Trumpist the candidate, the better that they did. It was in the battleground states where the Trump backed candidates didn't do so well. And so I just worry that that's accelerating our division.
- [36:31]
Jane Mayer
But of course, I mean, you can see, see the pattern. It very much mirrors the pattern of the Confederacy plus a few Western states. So we know this is a very old division in this country. But as you say, if the battleground states are moving away from that kind of extremism, as Wisconsin did, it only takes a few swing states. We've seen it happen in many elections. So I will still very gingerly fly the flag of some optimism here.
- [37:05]
Evan Osnos
Well, we're going to have to wait to see if there is political accountability in America. What we know is that for the moment, and that's something to mark for this week, is that there does appear to be some accountability in the courts. We are going to leave it here. We're going to be back, of course, next week. Great to be with you both. Thank you.
- [37:22]
Jane Mayer
Thanks, Evan.
- [37:24]
Susan Glasser
Thank you so much, guys.
- [37:31]
Evan Osnos
This has been the political scene. I'm Evan Osnos. We had production assistance today from Alex d' Elia and Dan Richards. Steven Valentino is our Executive producer. Our theme music is by Alison Leighton Brown. Thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next week.
- [37:54]
Katie Drummond
I'm Katie Drummond. I'm Wired's Global Editorial Director.
- [37:57]
Evan Osnos
I'm Michael Colory, Wired's Director of Consumer Tech and Culture.
- [38:01]
Susan Glasser
And I'm Lauren Good.
- [38:02]
Katie Drummond
I'm a senior correspondent at Wired.
- [38:04]
Susan Glasser
And our show, Uncanny Valley, is about the people, power, and influence of Silicon Valley.
- [38:10]
Katie Drummond
And right now, Silicon Valley and Washington have never been more intertwined. So each week, we get together to talk about a big story, often at the intersection of tech and politics.
- [38:19]
Susan Glasser
Right.
- [38:20]
Evan Osnos
So whether we're talking about Trump, Coin, Doge, or Elon Musk, we will always explain how these Silicon Valley forces are.
- [38:27]
Katie Drummond
Affecting Washington and how they affect you. Make sure you're following Uncanny Valley in your podcast app of choice so you don't miss an episode.