Episode Summary:

The Political Scene | The New Yorker

"Bob Woodward Discusses His Trump Tapes"

Date: September 4, 2023
Host: David Remnick (appears as Michael Calore in transcript, assumed to be an alias for the episode)
Guest: Bob Woodward

Overview

In this episode, David Remnick sits down with legendary investigative journalist Bob Woodward to discuss his latest project, "The Trump Tapes." The conversation delves into Woodward’s unique access to President Donald Trump during his presidency, insights gained from hours of recorded conversations, and Woodward's reflections on Trump’s temperament, leadership style, and the parallels between Trump and Nixon. The episode also touches on Woodward’s philosophy as a reporter, the significance of these tapes for history, and institutional reflections on the state of The Washington Post.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Did Trump Keep Talking to Woodward?

• Trump’s Perceived Invulnerability:
  • Woodward reflects on why Trump continued speaking candidly even after an unflattering book in 2018.
  • “It is a confidence that he can sell himself to anybody... you go into the Oval Office and people just melt. And you have Trump's dominant personality with this treacherous deference that takes place. And he thought he was in control.” (03:00)
• The "Treacherous Curtain of Deference":
  • Woodward compares the deference shown to Trump in the Oval Office with George Kennan’s observation about the presidency.

2. Woodward’s Reporting Approach

• Maintaining Objectivity:
  • Woodward notes that he wasn’t playing Trump, but approaching each conversation with a "blank slate."
  • “You want to come reasonably with a blank slate. Okay, I'm here to listen.” (05:53)
• Combative Engagement:
  • Despite not being overtly critical initially, Woodward insists he challenged Trump directly during interviews.
  • “If you've listened to these tapes, I was combative with him all the time and say, hey, wait a minute, what are you doing?... Don't despise your enemies. They have a case and you need to understand the case. And... it's who are they?” (05:51)

3. What You Learn in Private

• Access and Follow-Up:
  • Woodward explains the rare opportunity to question Trump privately and ask follow-ups, unlike in public press scenarios (07:00).
  • “It wasn't a press conference... I literally was the interrogator. Why did you do this? How can you do this?... Most importantly for me, the experts, like Dr. Fauci telling me Trump's not listening...”

4. Directly Advising the President

• Woodward recounts encouraging Trump to seek diverse advice and consult family or experts like Bill Gates.
  • Memorable Exchange:
    • Woodward: “Ask [your family] if you should apologize.” (09:08)
    • Trump: “I think if I apologized for something that I did nothing wrong, it's a question of how can I apologize for making a decent statement, a very, very appropriate statement?” (09:12)
  • On pandemic response:
    • Woodward: “[Gates] puts up a lot of his own money, too. And you know about when somebody puts up money, it means they care. Somebody like that, you need to listen to.” (09:52)

5. Trump's Decision-Making and Self-Focus

• Assessing Trump’s Seriousness:
  • When asked if he ever felt he was talking to “an idiot,” Woodward vehemently rejects the label, while strongly criticizing Trump’s actions as president.
    • “I think what he did as president is worse than criminal... But I think it’s a mistake to... think of him as an idiot because he navigated something... to the presidency.” (10:46)
• Trump’s Self-Interest:
  • On COVID-19’s devastation by July 2020, Woodward notes, “What he's serious about is himself.” (17:11)
  • Example: Trump downplays the pandemic’s severity, saying, “I'll have a plan in 104 days,” clearly alluding to Election Day. (17:11)

6. Trump on Kim Jong Un & Foreign Policy

• Private Anecdotes:
  • Trump jokes about the “Rocket Man” moniker for Kim Jong Un and claims exclusive understanding of the North Korean leader:
    • Trump: “I'm the only one that knows. I'm the only one he deals with. He won’t deal with anybody else.” (13:42)
  • Woodward Rebuttal:
    • “I make of this is the danger of Trump. Only I know. I'm the only one who knows. I've never heard... any president say or imply to anyone that they're the only one that knows.” (13:55)

7. Trump and Nixon: Parallels of Abuse of Power

• Connecting Watergate and January 6th:
  • Woodward draws historical links between Nixon’s abuses and Trump’s actions to undermine the electoral process.
  • “What was Watergate? It was an effort to destroy the process of nominating and electing the President... What is it that Trump has done? It is in the same way destructive of the process of January 6...” (18:40)

8. Reflections on The Washington Post’s Crisis

• Institutional Worries:
  • Discusses declining subscriptions, staff losses, and leadership concerns at The Washington Post.
  • Advises owner Jeff Bezos is “in listening mode” but needs thorough action.
  • On Trump’s misunderstandings:
    • “Trump's telling me, ‘Oh, Bezos directs what you do.’ And I said, no, no, he keeps hands off... If he owned the Washington, he would have his hands around the throats of everyone to do what he wants.” (21:27–23:19)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s self-confidence:
  “He thought he was in control.” — Bob Woodward (03:00)
• On interviewing Trump:
  “There are three of us in the marriage… Or is it Donald Trump?” — Bob Woodward quoting his wife Elsa (07:00)
• On COVID-19 and election priorities:
  “Well, I'll have a plan in 104 days… Calculation. 104 days was election Day. He's thinking about the election.” — Bob Woodward (17:11)
• On “Only I know”:
  “Only I know. I'm the only one who knows. I've never heard... any president say or imply to anyone that they're the only one that knows.” — Bob Woodward (13:55)
• On the legacy of Watergate and January 6th:
  “It is devastating what Nixon did to destroy that process, and it is devastating what Trump did trying to destroy that process on January 6th.” — Bob Woodward (18:40)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Trump’s Willingness to Engage with Woodward: 03:00–05:06
• Woodward’s Reporting Philosophy: 05:06–06:31
• Behind-the-Scenes Access to Trump: 07:00–08:34
• Advising Trump & Notable Playback: 08:55–10:24
• Trump’s Approach to Decision-Making: 10:24–11:41
• The North Korea Dynamic: 11:41–13:53
• “Only I Know” – Presidential Isolation: 13:53–15:05
• Pandemic, Election, and Self-Interest: 16:42–18:22
• Parallels to Nixon & Abuse of Power: 18:40–20:38
• Washington Post’s Institutional Challenges: 20:38–23:19

Conclusion

Woodward’s interview grants rare insight into not just the psyche and presidency of Donald Trump, but also the role of a reporter in moments of historical consequence. By releasing the Trump Tapes, Woodward has made a unique contribution to understanding contemporary American politics—one colored by his rigor, his willingness to challenge power, and a sense of history's repeating patterns. The episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in power, journalism, and the leadership crises of our time.