Bob Woodward Discusses His Trump Tapes

Summary

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Episode Summary:

The Political Scene | The New Yorker

"Bob Woodward Discusses His Trump Tapes"

Date: September 4, 2023
Host: David Remnick (appears as Michael Calore in transcript, assumed to be an alias for the episode)
Guest: Bob Woodward

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Overview

In this episode, David Remnick sits down with legendary investigative journalist Bob Woodward to discuss his latest project, "The Trump Tapes." The conversation delves into Woodward’s unique access to President Donald Trump during his presidency, insights gained from hours of recorded conversations, and Woodward's reflections on Trump’s temperament, leadership style, and the parallels between Trump and Nixon. The episode also touches on Woodward’s philosophy as a reporter, the significance of these tapes for history, and institutional reflections on the state of The Washington Post.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Did Trump Keep Talking to Woodward?

• Trump’s Perceived Invulnerability:
  • Woodward reflects on why Trump continued speaking candidly even after an unflattering book in 2018.
  • “It is a confidence that he can sell himself to anybody... you go into the Oval Office and people just melt. And you have Trump's dominant personality with this treacherous deference that takes place. And he thought he was in control.” (03:00)
• The "Treacherous Curtain of Deference":
  • Woodward compares the deference shown to Trump in the Oval Office with George Kennan’s observation about the presidency.

2. Woodward’s Reporting Approach

• Maintaining Objectivity:
  • Woodward notes that he wasn’t playing Trump, but approaching each conversation with a "blank slate."
  • “You want to come reasonably with a blank slate. Okay, I'm here to listen.” (05:53)
• Combative Engagement:
  • Despite not being overtly critical initially, Woodward insists he challenged Trump directly during interviews.
  • “If you've listened to these tapes, I was combative with him all the time and say, hey, wait a minute, what are you doing?... Don't despise your enemies. They have a case and you need to understand the case. And... it's who are they?” (05:51)

3. What You Learn in Private

• Access and Follow-Up:
  • Woodward explains the rare opportunity to question Trump privately and ask follow-ups, unlike in public press scenarios (07:00).
  • “It wasn't a press conference... I literally was the interrogator. Why did you do this? How can you do this?... Most importantly for me, the experts, like Dr. Fauci telling me Trump's not listening...”

4. Directly Advising the President

• Woodward recounts encouraging Trump to seek diverse advice and consult family or experts like Bill Gates.
  • Memorable Exchange:
    • Woodward: “Ask [your family] if you should apologize.” (09:08)
    • Trump: “I think if I apologized for something that I did nothing wrong, it's a question of how can I apologize for making a decent statement, a very, very appropriate statement?” (09:12)
  • On pandemic response:
    • Woodward: “[Gates] puts up a lot of his own money, too. And you know about when somebody puts up money, it means they care. Somebody like that, you need to listen to.” (09:52)

5. Trump's Decision-Making and Self-Focus

• Assessing Trump’s Seriousness:
  • When asked if he ever felt he was talking to “an idiot,” Woodward vehemently rejects the label, while strongly criticizing Trump’s actions as president.
    • “I think what he did as president is worse than criminal... But I think it’s a mistake to... think of him as an idiot because he navigated something... to the presidency.” (10:46)
• Trump’s Self-Interest:
  • On COVID-19’s devastation by July 2020, Woodward notes, “What he's serious about is himself.” (17:11)
  • Example: Trump downplays the pandemic’s severity, saying, “I'll have a plan in 104 days,” clearly alluding to Election Day. (17:11)

6. Trump on Kim Jong Un & Foreign Policy

• Private Anecdotes:
  • Trump jokes about the “Rocket Man” moniker for Kim Jong Un and claims exclusive understanding of the North Korean leader:
    • Trump: “I'm the only one that knows. I'm the only one he deals with. He won’t deal with anybody else.” (13:42)
  • Woodward Rebuttal:
    • “I make of this is the danger of Trump. Only I know. I'm the only one who knows. I've never heard... any president say or imply to anyone that they're the only one that knows.” (13:55)

7. Trump and Nixon: Parallels of Abuse of Power

• Connecting Watergate and January 6th:
  • Woodward draws historical links between Nixon’s abuses and Trump’s actions to undermine the electoral process.
  • “What was Watergate? It was an effort to destroy the process of nominating and electing the President... What is it that Trump has done? It is in the same way destructive of the process of January 6...” (18:40)

8. Reflections on The Washington Post’s Crisis

• Institutional Worries:
  • Discusses declining subscriptions, staff losses, and leadership concerns at The Washington Post.
  • Advises owner Jeff Bezos is “in listening mode” but needs thorough action.
  • On Trump’s misunderstandings:
    • “Trump's telling me, ‘Oh, Bezos directs what you do.’ And I said, no, no, he keeps hands off... If he owned the Washington, he would have his hands around the throats of everyone to do what he wants.” (21:27–23:19)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s self-confidence:
  “He thought he was in control.” — Bob Woodward (03:00)
• On interviewing Trump:
  “There are three of us in the marriage… Or is it Donald Trump?” — Bob Woodward quoting his wife Elsa (07:00)
• On COVID-19 and election priorities:
  “Well, I'll have a plan in 104 days… Calculation. 104 days was election Day. He's thinking about the election.” — Bob Woodward (17:11)
• On “Only I know”:
  “Only I know. I'm the only one who knows. I've never heard... any president say or imply to anyone that they're the only one that knows.” — Bob Woodward (13:55)
• On the legacy of Watergate and January 6th:
  “It is devastating what Nixon did to destroy that process, and it is devastating what Trump did trying to destroy that process on January 6th.” — Bob Woodward (18:40)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Trump’s Willingness to Engage with Woodward: 03:00–05:06
• Woodward’s Reporting Philosophy: 05:06–06:31
• Behind-the-Scenes Access to Trump: 07:00–08:34
• Advising Trump & Notable Playback: 08:55–10:24
• Trump’s Approach to Decision-Making: 10:24–11:41
• The North Korea Dynamic: 11:41–13:53
• “Only I Know” – Presidential Isolation: 13:53–15:05
• Pandemic, Election, and Self-Interest: 16:42–18:22
• Parallels to Nixon & Abuse of Power: 18:40–20:38
• Washington Post’s Institutional Challenges: 20:38–23:19

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Conclusion

Woodward’s interview grants rare insight into not just the psyche and presidency of Donald Trump, but also the role of a reporter in moments of historical consequence. By releasing the Trump Tapes, Woodward has made a unique contribution to understanding contemporary American politics—one colored by his rigor, his willingness to challenge power, and a sense of history's repeating patterns. The episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in power, journalism, and the leadership crises of our time.

Transcript

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[Michael Calore]

This is the political scene, and I'm David Remnant. For over a half a century, Bob Woodward has been gaining access to and reporting on people in the highest positions of power in the United States. And when it comes to presidents, he has gone toe to toe with nearly everyone since Richard Nixon.

[Bob Woodward]

And if you look at Nixon, sorry, he failed, right?

[Donald Trump]

Why? Because of you.

[Bob Woodward]

No, no, no, that's not the. I mean, there's. There's what?

[Michael Calore]

Word is every inch the reporter. Not at all someone inclined to editorialize. But in his many hours of conversation with Donald Trump from before the election in 2016 through the initial fallout of the COVID crisis, Woodward came to see Trump as not just a disruptor, but a real danger to the nation. He's now released the audio recordings of some of those conversations in a new book called the Trump Tapes. We hear Donald Trump's state of mind in his own peculiar words. But we also gain a greater appreciation for Woodward's process and his craft. Bob, you are now out with something very unusual. You've been publishing books, obviously, since Watergate, about the American presidency. Now you're publishing with the Trump tapes, an edited version of your raw materials, your tapes with Donald Trump. And I have to ask you, after your first book about Trump in 2018, which was hardly a flattering portrait, why do you think he went on talking to you incessantly?

[Bob Woodward]

Well, this goes into the state of his mind. It is a confidence that he can sell himself to anybody. I'm sure you remember this about George Cannon, the famous, famous father of the containment theory and practice of containing the Soviet Union. And Kennan had this phrase, the treacherous, treacherous curtain of deference, that you go into the Oval Office and people just melt. And you have Trump's dominant personality with this treacherous deference that takes place. And he thought he was in control.

[Michael Calore]

But okay, but you were not intimidated by.

[Bob Woodward]

No, no. The Oval Office.

[Michael Calore]

Why would you be?

[Bob Woodward]

You can't be. It was, again, one of these things Trump just decided he's going to do. Lindsey Graham told him. Well, said he won't put words in your mouth. And I put words in his mouth. So there I am in the Oval Office before the Resolute desk. He has his props, pictures of he and Kim Jong Un, and we start talking about 2016, why he won. And this is something historians are going to be exploring for 100 years. And my analysis was, it's Barbara Tuchman's notion of the dying of the old order, that the old order was dying in the Republican Party and the Democratic Party. And Trump got that intuitively, not intellectually. And he just jumped in his chair when I said, yes, and I'm going to do it again. Of course, he did not.

[Michael Calore]

I remember watching you early on television one morning, and I was a big loudmouth about Trump from the start. And maybe it's because I'm here in New York and years of listening and watching Trump, and I've been wrong about things in the past, but I thought this guy was pernicious and worse right from the start. And I was watching you on Fox, and it was true that you were saying, and many people were not, that he should be taken seriously and that he might win. But I didn't hear you being hypercritical of him like many in the media were back then. And I thought to myself, God, Woodward. Woodward is really smart. Because Woodward wants to get to this point.

[Bob Woodward]

No, no, don't.

[Michael Calore]

Were you playing him?

[Bob Woodward]

No, of course not. Look, if you've listened to these tapes, I was combative with him all the time and say, hey, wait a minute, what are you doing? But I really know it's The Graham Green line about don't despise your enemies. They have a case and you need to understand the case. And in the case of Trump or anyone, it's who are they? And you want to come reasonably with a blank slate. Okay, I'm here to listen.

[Michael Calore]

I've always thought of Trump in many ways as the most transparent president of our lifetime. That what you see on television is not dissimilar from what you get in private by talking to him privately. And you had endless conversations with him in person, on, on the phone, by surprise, and on and on and on. What did you learn in private that you were not getting in public?

[Bob Woodward]

That's an important question in this process, which was strange. I could call him anytime. He would call me. Elsa, my wife and I, she used to joke, there are three of us in the marriage. And the phone would ring and is it one of our daughters? Is it a friend? Is it a robocall? Or is it Donald Trump? And it would often be Donald Trump. Here's the variable. I could ask follow up questions. It wasn't a press conference or a stop at the helicopter on the White House lawn, which all presidents, Trump indeed included. Control the environment. And no one can say, hey, oh, wait, wait a minute. You didn't answer the question. So I would have sessions with him, like after the first impeachment, I literally was the interrogator. Why did you do this? How can you do this? Look at that. Or most importantly for me, the experts, like Dr. Fauci telling me Trump's not listening about the virus. Well, what's he not listening to? These are the 15 things he needs to do that they could not talk to him about because he would not pay attention.

[Michael Calore]

There are times in the interviews where you tell Trump what to do. Talk to Bill Gates about the pandemic response, or go ask Ivanka if he should apologize for the call to the Ukrainian leadership that led to the first impeachment. Maybe talk about those moments. And before you do, let's play one or two.

[Bob Woodward]

Who's the person you trust most in the world?

[Donald Trump]

That's an interesting question.

[Bob Woodward]

Yeah.

[Donald Trump]

Oh, I don't know. I don't want to get into it because I have so many people, I have great family members. I trust my family members.

[Bob Woodward]

Ask them if you should apologize.

[Donald Trump]

I think if I apologized, I think if I apologized for something that I did nothing wrong, it's a question of how can I apologize for making a decent statement, a very, very appropriate statement?

[Michael Calore]

You got another one here about Bill Gates.

[Bob Woodward]

Let's hear that there are all kinds of wise people out there. Have you been able to talk to Bill Gates?

[Donald Trump]

He called me a little while ago. What do you think of Bill Gates?

[Bob Woodward]

You know, I do not know him. I just know he spent billions of dollars on fighting these diseases. And he's very informed.

[Donald Trump]

He still gets a lot of money from the US Government to fight.

[Bob Woodward]

Yes, he does. But he puts up a lot of his own money, too. And you know about when somebody puts up money, it means they care. Somebody like that, you need to listen to. And you can say, okay, I'll weigh that. I will talk to all the business people, I'll talk to the Fauci's, I'll talk to the experts. And then out comes the, you know, you never make a perfect decision.

[Donald Trump]

Right.

[Bob Woodward]

But out comes the best decision.

[Michael Calore]

I have to ask right away, Bob, the notion that you are talking to a guy in his 70s who's the president of the United States and you're telling him about the rudiments of how you make a decision, you talk to a lot of experts and come to conclusions. I mean, were you thinking to yourself.

[Bob Woodward]

I'm talking to an idiot, if I may. Look, I think what he did as president is worse than criminal. And I think it's provable on many levels, in many ways. But I think it's a mistake to call him or think of him as an idiot because he navigated something, what 46 people have in the history of this country to the presidency. You want to criticize that? Certainly. And examine it. But I think in 2016, in my business, and I put myself at the top of the list, we were not inquisitive enough about Trump because we loved the show and the pyrotechnics.

[Michael Calore]

I think the foreign policy issue that's concentrated upon the most here and is the most, perhaps the most revealing is North Korea and his relationship with Kim Jong Un. Here he is joking with Kim Jong Un about the Little rocket nickname. Let's listen.

[Donald Trump]

We've always gotten along great. I said, did you ever hear of the song Rocket Man? He said, no, no. Did you ever hear of Elton John? No, no. I said, I did you a great favor. I called you Rocket Man. He goes, you called me Little Rocket Man? You know, he looks at me. He knew. Oh, he knew that he didn't like Little Rocket Man. Rocketman was okay, but he didn't like it.

[Bob Woodward]

But just to go back with Ogon.

[Michael Calore]

Now, is this someone taking the presidency seriously?

[Bob Woodward]

Well, I mean, it's, you know, they're joke moments. But this was not a joking issue. And if we play some of the other tapes of Trump telling me about that relationship, it might be useful. Is this all designed to drive Kim to the negotiation table?

[Donald Trump]

No, no, it was designed. For whatever reason, it was designed. Who knows? Instinctively. Let's talk instinct, okay? Because it's really about. You don't know what's going to happen. But it was very rough rhetoric, the roughest.

[Bob Woodward]

Again, part of the tragedy. Who knows? Who knows? You know, why are you doing this? What's your purpose? What's the strategy? What's the plan? Who knows? It's instinct. But the CIA says about Kim Jong Un, you know, they do all this analysis and reporting that he's cunning, crafty, but ultimately stupid.

[Donald Trump]

I disagree.

[Bob Woodward]

But, you know, I'm sure they tell you that.

[Donald Trump]

I hope you write that and I hope you write my answer. I disagree. He's cunning, he's crafty, and he's very smart and he's very tough, you know?

[Bob Woodward]

Why does the CIA say that?

[Donald Trump]

Because they don't know, okay? Because they don't know. They have no idea. I'm the only one that knows. I'm the only one he deals with. He won't deal with anybody else.

[Michael Calore]

What do you make of that?

[Bob Woodward]

I make of this is the danger of Trump. Only I know. I'm the only one who knows. I've written books and reporting in the Washington Post about 10 presidents. I've never heard of one say or imply to anyone that they're the only one that knows. In fact, it's. Maybe some of them at times have thought that, but they realize again, you need to open the door to other information, thoughts and conclusions. You and I both work at the Washington Post when Ben Bradlee was the editor. Ben. Can you imagine Ben running? Only I know. I mean, he would come. He would come and call you into his office. What do you know? What's going on? Pull up a chair literally next to your computer.

[Michael Calore]

Very hungry for information.

[Bob Woodward]

Why? Because he knew that was the path. As he used to always say, the truth emerges slowly. Sometimes slowly. What do you think?

[Donald Trump]

You were really shouting at him?

[Bob Woodward]

I was. To get in the word edgewise.

[Donald Trump]

You're shouting. It's really loud.

[Bob Woodward]

It's okay. That's okay.

[Donald Trump]

You want to get more.

[Bob Woodward]

I know.

[Donald Trump]

Information from him like this.

[Bob Woodward]

I agree.

[Donald Trump]

Not telling him what he needs to do. It kind of sounded like you were telling him what to do.

[Bob Woodward]

Yeah, well, same. I kept. Okay. But we're in a different world now.

[Donald Trump]

Sweden.

[Michael Calore]

So for Those who couldn't quite make that out. You're saying that you're in a different world now with a guy like Trump, while Elsa Walsh, your wife and herself, an extremely good reporter, is telling you that you were shouting at him and that I can't imagine. That's not your temperament, so far as I know.

[Bob Woodward]

No, that's right. But this was an interview April 5th. I had talked to Fauci and all the experts, and they told me as I was saying that he won't listen. Well, what won't he listen to? And I had 15 things and I literally went through them with Trump. You need to coordinate internationally. Henry Kissinger just written an op ed piece about that. Of course, Trump didn't. Oh, what'd Kissinger say?

[Michael Calore]

You were talking to the President of the United States in real time, constantly during this crisis, this extended crisis. And I wonder, obviously you nailed down the date when he knew about this and the seriousness of it, but how would you characterize the person you were talking with, his level of curiosity, engagement, seriousness? I mean, how would you characterize those.

[Bob Woodward]

Conversations Overall, what he's serious about is himself. Again, to go to July of 2020, this is the point. The virus had killed 140,000 people in this country. And talking to Trump on the phone, recording it, all of these are recorded with his permission. And I said, it's pretty bad. And he said, what are you talking about? What's bad? And I said, well, the virus. He said, oh, we've got it under control. Under control. I mean, I'm almost jumping through the phone, it's nothing. Under control. And he said, I mean, this is. Listen to it. Hear him in his own voice. Well, I'll have a plan in 104 days. And he said, well, if I put it out now, what no one will remember. And then did the calculation. 104 days was election Day. He's thinking about the election.

[Michael Calore]

Bob, you've been at this for over 50 years, this activity of reporting, and you've certainly reached the age of self reflection. I wonder if you can boil it down, what you think that have been your central achievements. And what did you miss or get wrong?

[Bob Woodward]

Well, I got a lot of things wrong. What Carl Bernstein and I tried to do in a piece we wrote for the Post, which is the new introduction to all the President's Men, is draw the connection between Nixon and Trump. And they are so many, it is really alarming. And what was Watergate? It was an effort to destroy the process of nominating and electing the President, what is it that Trump has done? It is in the same way destructive of the process of January 6, which is in the Constitution and in the Electoral act laid out in great detail. This is how we decide who is president, the vice president, who's the president of the Senate, convenes the House and the Senate, and they count the electoral votes. And here was an equivalent realization by Trump that and others, that this is the soft spot. You know, if somehow we can get pence to not count the votes or adjourn the meeting, just like Nixon, if he can just destroy the process the Democrat opposition party had in 1972 to nominate a strong candidate. I mean, it's devastating what Nixon did to destroy that process, and it is devastating what Trump did trying to destroy that process on January 6th.

[Michael Calore]

Finally, Bob, I want to ask an institutional question. The Washington Post, I think at this moment, after some really strong years, is struggling. It's losing subscribers by the hundreds of thousands. It's hemorrhaging talent. Its business leader, Fred Ryan, has failed to do for the Post what the leadership of the Times has done. And he also seems not to like journalism very much. The editor, Sally Busby, is confiding to reporters that she might be headed for the exits after just a year in place. You care about the Post a lot, and you probably remain. You definitely remain its most vivid figure. If you could tell Jeff Bezos anything about what to do about the Washington Post at the current moment, what would you say?

[Bob Woodward]

Oh, boy. I've known Bezos for more than 20 years, and I communicate with him, and it's clear to me he's aware that there's trouble. And I think he's in. I know he's in a listening mode about what people think, what those troubles are, where they come from. And I know him well enough. He's not an impulsive person, but can be very thorough. There is an awareness that he has and other levels in and outside the Post that we've. That some repair work needs to be done. What that is and how and who is responsible. I'm on the sidelines. I'm in the old geezer class. And there's nothing worse than the people who've been there before coming along kind of saying, oh, well, when I was there, it was. Was different. So I am confident that. And again, this is interesting comparison to Trump. There are on these tapes discussions of Trump about Bezos, because Trump's telling me, oh, Bezos directs what you do. And I said, no, no, he stays, keeps hands off. Oh, he said, I don't believe that. And made it clear if he owned the Washington, he would have his hands around the throats of everyone to do what he wants.

[Michael Calore]

Just to be clear, you're talking to Bezos.

[Bob Woodward]

I'm just not going to say who I've talked to or how I do it. It's just like the reporting. There are no Bezos tapes.

[Michael Calore]

Bob Woodward, thanks so much.

[Bob Woodward]

Thank you.

[Michael Calore]

Bob Woodward's new book, it's his 22nd, is called the Trump Tapes. The audiobook is available now and the book is out in paperback this month.

[Donald Trump]

Mr. Woodward, the president. Hi, Bob.

[Bob Woodward]

President Trump. How are you?

[Donald Trump]

How are you? Lindsey said give you a call. I just spoke to a couple of people. I said, I just came back from two speeches and I said, I gotta call the man. What's going on? You doing okay?

[Bob Woodward]

I am.

[Donald Trump]

I was watching the Democratic debate.

[Bob Woodward]

I thought you would be watching.

[Donald Trump]

I am.

[Michael Calore]

I just turned it on after. I'm Katie Drummond. I'm Wired's Global Editorial director. I'm Michael Colory, Wired's Director of Consumer Tech and Culture. And I'm Lauren Good.

[Katie Drummond]

I'm a senior correspondent at Wired. And our show, Uncanny Valley, is all about the people, power and influence of Silicon Valley.

[Bob Woodward]

At Wired, we're constantly reporting on how.

[Michael Calore]

Technology is changing every aspect of our lives. So each week on the show, we get together to talk about one of.

[Katie Drummond]

The biggest stories in tech.

[Michael Calore]

Right. So whether we're talking about privacy, AI, social media, or a major tech figure, we will always explain the Silicon Valley forces behind these stories and how they affect you. Make sure you're following Uncanny Valley in your podcast app of choice so you.

[Katie Drummond]

Don'T miss an episode.

[Bob Woodward]

From prx.