Podcast Summary: Can the Democrats Design a Pragmatic Climate Change Policy?
Podcast: The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Date: June 13, 2019
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guest: Robert Stavins (A.J. Meyer Professor of Energy and Economic Development, Harvard Kennedy School)
Episode Overview
This episode explores the Democratic Party’s approaches to climate change policy ahead of the 2020 presidential election. Dorothy Wickenden interviews Robert Stavins, a leading authority on environmental economics, to dissect the feasibility of policies like cap and trade, carbon taxes, and the Green New Deal. They also touch on the role of political movements, Republican responses, and industry shifts for a comprehensive analysis of the future of American climate policy.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Old School Approaches: Cap and Trade vs. Carbon Tax
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Background (03:22–04:13):
- Cap and Trade “passed the House of Representatives nearly with exclusively Democratic votes, and then it went on to the Senate where it was demonized... as cap and tax.” — Robert Stavins [03:33]
- The difference:
- Carbon tax: “Places a fee or a tax on the three fossil fuels... in proportion to their carbon content... It really turns out to a large degree to be a tax on coal.” — Stavins [04:18]
- Cap and trade: “Puts a cap, a quantity constraint on the total amount of carbon entering the economy and allows firms to trade among themselves... The market price turns out to be the same as what a commensurate tax would be.” — Stavins [04:40]
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Political Obstacles (05:33):
- Cap and trade once “swept the costs under the rug” making it more passable, but was eventually equated with taxes and lost its political viability.
2. Performance Standards and Practical Hurdles
- What Are Performance Standards? (06:13–06:28):
- “A performance standard is the approach that’s used for nearly all other environmental problems... when an individual limit is put on individual firms to reduce their emissions.” — Stavins [06:28]
- Problems
- Impracticability: “...for climate change... we’re talking about every electricity generating plant, manufacturing facility, every home, every motor vehicle, every backyard barbecue grill and lawnmower. The notion of developing individual performance standards for all of those different emission sources is actually ludicrous.” — Stavins [07:05]
- Cost and coverage limitations; poor signals for long-term technological change.
3. State-Level Innovation: California as a Model
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California’s Mixed-Policy Portfolio (08:01):
- “They have a cap and trade system... They also have low carbon fuel standards, energy efficiency standards, and renewable portfolio standards.” — Stavins [08:01]
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Effectiveness (08:38):
- “It’s very well designed... It has been a success in terms of what it can be expected to achieve. There are... problems, in particular how these different policy instruments interact with one another.” — Stavins [08:38]
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Spread to Other States (09:10):
- Oregon, the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative in the northeast, and broad adoption of renewable standards in over half the states.
4. Popular Attitudes and Regional Politics
- Red State Exceptions (10:06):
- “From Texas all the way up to North Dakota... conservative Republicans... are extremely supportive of the federal subsidies that exist for wind energy.” — Stavins [10:06]
- Global Commons Challenge (11:27):
- “When an individual jurisdiction... takes action, it incurs the cost, but the benefits are spread globally... the benefits are going to be less than the costs. That’s the definition of a global commons problem.” — Stavins [11:27]
- Temporal challenge: “Greenhouse gases... have long lagged times... damages are going to be off in the future... Asking... to vote to put costs on current voters... while the benefits... go to future generations in other parts of the world.” — Stavins [12:13]
5. The Green New Deal: Movement vs. Policy
- Critique and Praise (14:25):
- “I now see the Green New Deal as essentially being a movement and... trying to critique or complement a movement is over my pay grade. But the goals... are fundamentally unreachable in many cases.” — Stavins [14:25]
- “Mixing together some environmental objectives... with a somewhat left-of-center set of economic proposals... guaranteeing a job to every family... is quite a list.” — Stavins [15:01]
6. Democratic Candidates’ Proposals
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Elizabeth Warren’s Plans (02:08 & 16:41):
- “We stop subsidizing fossil fuel companies... rebuild our infrastructure for the 21st century... no offshore drilling... put real money into the research that we need for... clean energy.” — Elizabeth Warren (clip) [02:08]
- “[Warren] is certainly detailed... There are aspects... that are sound in terms of when she gets into policy proposals. I’m always concerned about the soaring rhetoric.” — Stavins [16:41]
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Movement as Catalyst (15:55):
- “Movements can spur effective policy proposals and action, whether or not this one will. It’s just obviously much too soon to be able to say.” — Stavins [15:55]
7. Republican Responses & Industry Shifts
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Republican Engagement (17:49):
- “There are Republicans... who have been supportive... One is Republican Representative Matt Goetz of Florida, who has said that the Republican Party needs to advance sound conservative proposals to address climate change and embrace the science.” — Stavins [17:49]
- Motivation often driven by constituency, e.g., Florida’s vulnerability to sea level rise.
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Industry Adaptation (18:34):
- “Oil and gas companies are quickly and methodically diversifying... first into natural gas... also carbon capture and renewables. There’s a huge difference between the position of oil companies and coal companies. For a coal company, it’s existential.” — Stavins [18:34]
8. Outlook: Technology and Realism
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Carbon Capture Technology (19:28):
- “Carbon capture and storage... could be the silver bullet... But at this point, carbon capture and storage remains costly... not at this point cost effective.” — Stavins [19:28]
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Stavins’ Outlook and Pessimism (20:34):
- “There will be fits and starts where there’s progress... To be completely honest... when I think about my children or my grandchildren... climate change is not what I worry about. What I’m worrying about now is the future of American democracy...” — Stavins [20:34]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
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On Movement vs. Policy:
“Trying to critique or complement a movement is over my pay grade.” — Robert Stavins [14:33] -
On Political Feasibility:
“For any individual jurisdiction... the benefits are going to be less than the costs. That’s the definition of a global commons problem.” — Robert Stavins [11:27] -
On Cap and Trade Politics:
“The political advantage of cap and trade was essentially that it sweeps the costs under the rug. It hides the costs, because you don’t get a discussion about those costs as much, whereas with a tax, of course you do.” — Robert Stavins [05:33] -
On the Complexity of Standards:
“The notion of developing individual performance standards for all of those different emission sources is actually ludicrous.” — Robert Stavins [07:14] -
On Renewables in Red States:
“From Texas all the way up to North Dakota... conservative Republicans... are extremely supportive of the federal subsidies that exist for wind energy.” — Robert Stavins [10:23] -
On Personal Concerns:
“What I’m worrying about now is the future of American democracy, the role of the press... There are other aspects of the current administration that for me are much more worrisome...” — Robert Stavins [20:44]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- [03:33] - Cap and trade’s defeat and political branding
- [06:28] - What are performance standards?
- [08:01] - California’s climate policy portfolio
- [09:10] - State-by-state climate policy diffusion
- [11:27] - The global commons problem and political implications
- [14:25] - Green New Deal: critique as “movement”
- [16:41] - Analysis of Elizabeth Warren’s policy specifics
- [17:49] - Examples of Republican engagement
- [18:34] - How oil and gas companies are adapting
- [19:28] - Current status and potential of carbon capture
- [20:34] - Stavins’ outlook: democracy as the greater concern
Tone and Style
The conversation is candid, measured, and analytical, with occasional wry humor and a clear-eyed view of both political limitations and the urgent need for leadership. Stavins emphasizes realism and complexity, joyfully deconstructing simplistic narratives while advocating for strategic, systemic approaches.
This episode is essential listening for anyone interested in the intersection of climate science, economics, and American politics. It demystifies policy mechanics and political realities behind the climate platforms dominating Democratic debate in 2019—and, with it, America’s short-term and long-term climate prospects.