Cuba Gooding, Jr., Talks to Jeffrey Toobin About O. J. Simpson

Summary

Podcast Summary: “Cuba Gooding, Jr., Talks to Jeffrey Toobin About O. J. Simpson”

The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Date: February 16, 2016
Host: Jeffrey Toobin
Guest: Cuba Gooding, Jr. (Actor, star of FX’s “The People v. O.J. Simpson”)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Jeffrey Toobin, staff writer and legal analyst, sits down with Academy Award-winning actor Cuba Gooding, Jr. to discuss Gooding’s portrayal of O.J. Simpson in FX’s “The People v. O.J. Simpson: American Crime Story.” Their conversation traces the personal, social, and artistic intricacies of re-creating this cultural touchstone. They reflect on race, fame, the responsibilities of storytellers, and how the Simpson saga continues to resonate in American life and Hollywood.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Physical and Emotional Toll of Playing O.J. Simpson

• Gooding’s Vocal Strain and Immersion in the Role (03:10–04:33):
  • Gooding’s voice had been affected for “three, four months,” which he attributes to repeatedly yelling during intense filming.
  • “It was one of those things… there was not more than three or four days that would pass where I’d have to yell, and… you yell take after take... And this condition kind of developed through the six months of filming.” (Gooding, 03:29)

2. The Golden Age of TV and Storytelling Depth

• Long-form Storytelling vs. Film (03:52–04:33):
  • Gooding describes how series TV allows for deeper character exploration:
    • “You have real filmmakers that are telling stories not in a three hour restriction, but 10 and 13 hours… We delve so deeply in the backstory of these characters… you see the perfect storm of events in the courtroom [and] how their outside the courtroom lives… affect their judgment inside.” (Gooding, 03:52–04:33)

3. Personal Memories of the O.J. Simpson Saga

• The Bronco Chase and Cultural Impact (04:33–05:45):
  • Gooding recalls watching the infamous Bronco chase during an NBA playoff party:
    • “I was watching the next game… and in the corner of the screen, they cut to an image of the Bronco on the freeway.” (Gooding, 04:47)
  • He also shares a brief, memorable club encounter with Simpson during his “Boyz n the Hood” fame.

4. The Complexity of Race, Fame, and Justice

• Initial Reaction to the Verdict and Subsequent Guilt (07:09–08:19):
  • Gooding admits to relief when Simpson was acquitted, expressing:
    • “I didn’t care if he did it or not. I just didn’t want them to accuse another black man for a crime he didn’t commit… White men get off all the time. Rich men get off all the time. This is one of our heroes…” (Gooding, 07:30)
  • He later felt guilt for not considering the victims’ families:
    • “It wasn’t until reading the research and doing this that I finally felt a sense of guilt for feeling that way. Never once did I consider the families… lives that were shattered.” (Gooding, 08:19)

5. The Actor’s Challenge: Embodying Complexity

• Portraying O.J. as Both Guilty and Innocent (08:34–10:18):
  • Gooding describes his and executive producer Ryan Murphy’s method for depicting ambiguity:
    • “Ryan… would walk up to me and whisper before I take, ‘Okay, this time I want you to experience the guilt of what you did,’... then he'd come back and say, ‘Now… experience the frustration because, you know, your son did it,’...” (Gooding, 09:08)
  • Gooding learned from Dustin Hoffman early on to “do the opposite” when playing a scene, discovering new dimensions.

6. Inside the Bronco: Emotional Depth and Personal Fallout

• Filming the Suicide Contemplation Scene (10:18–12:09):
  • Gooding describes the difficulty and psychological effect of performing O.J.’s inner turmoil during the Bronco chase, touching on suicidal thoughts and broken family:
    • “For the longest time, I would hear actors talk about how it was difficult to shake a character… After this role, I understood it. I truly understood that you go through a psychosis… it literally took me, I don’t know, months maybe…” (Gooding, 11:09)
  • He relates this to why he avoids dark subject matter, like “Making a Murderer.”

7. Artistic Full Circle: Working with John Singleton Again

• Reuniting with “Boyz n the Hood” Director (12:09–13:09):
  • Gooding recounts an emotional set reunion with director John Singleton, who directed one episode:
    • “He turns to me and he starts crying… ‘We’ve come full circle… telling about the social ills in Los Angeles, police harassment all over again, 25 years later.’” (Gooding, 12:23)

8. Race and Opportunity in Hollywood

• Oscars Diversity and the Value of Protest (13:09–14:57):
  • Gooding notes his pride at becoming an Academy member before winning his Oscar, and recalls the support of Jada Pinkett Smith and Will Smith.
  • On boycotting the Oscars:
    • “I think it was necessary for that dialogue to be started because it promoted change in the voting, and there is a place for people to voice. Even if it’s a radical voice, it promotes change…” (Gooding, 14:54)
  • He would attend the ceremony, but values the conversation around diversity.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On TV as the new cinematic medium:

  • “This is why we have this golden age of television… you get to develop… all aspects of whatever idea of a story they have…” (Gooding, 03:52)

• On his emotional response to the trial verdict:

  • “I just didn’t want them to accuse another black man… White men get off all the time. Rich men get off all the time. This is one of our heroes.” (Gooding, 07:30)

• On carrying the weight of a role:

  • “After this role, I understood it… you go through a psychosis… I’m still today haunted by certain frame minds I don’t want to put myself in.” (Gooding, 11:09)

• On coming full circle with John Singleton:

  • “He starts crying… ‘We’ve come full circle… telling about the social ills in Los Angeles, police harassment all over again, 25 years later.’” (Gooding, 12:23)

• On Hollywood’s progress:

  • “Even if it’s a radical voice, it promotes change, and that’s why we’re in the better place we are today.” (Gooding, 14:54)

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Timestamps: Key Segments

• 03:10 – Gooding discusses the toll of filming (“my voice sounds like this…”)
• 04:44 – Both recall where they were during the Bronco chase
• 07:15 – Gooding’s “huge sigh of relief” at the not-guilty verdict
• 08:19 – Gooding’s guilt over not considering the victims’ families
• 09:08 – On embodying both guilt and innocence as O.J.
• 11:09 – Psychological and emotional aftermath of the role
• 12:23 – Reuniting with Singleton; the emotional “full circle”
• 13:36 – Reflections on diversity in Hollywood and the Oscars

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Conclusion

This engaging episode goes beyond Hollywood storytelling, unwrapping how the O.J. Simpson trial forced America to confront race, celebrity, and justice—and how art can echo those themes decades later. Cuba Gooding, Jr.’s honest, self-reflective insights, paired with Toobin’s legal and cultural analysis, offer listeners new depth on a familiar story and the enduring legacy of a pivotal national drama.

Transcript

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[Dorothy Wickenden]

I'm Dorothy Wickenden. On today's Politics and More podcast, New Yorker staff writer Geoffrey Toobin talks to the Academy Award winning actor Cuba Gooding Jr. Gooding is playing the title role in the People vs. O.J. simpson, a TV series based on Toobin's 1996 book about the Simpson trial, the run of his life.

[News Reporter]

O.J. simpson formally charged today with two counts of murder. He was supposed to surrender at 11 o' clock today.

[Narrator]

More than 20 years ago, a white Bronco with O.J. simpson in the passenger seat took a long, meandering drive down a Los Angeles freeway with the LAPD in pursuit and the entire country watching on television.

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

This is Larry King. As we stay atop this scene, we're.

[News Reporter]

Seeing a car that's been pulling up, pulling back, and now we see the white Bronco take off at a speed that's considerably faster than it's been driving before. But look at the people standing on the freeway there, waving.

[Narrator]

Simpson's arrest and trial for double homicide are the subject of American Crime Story, which started its season last week on FX if you're older than, say, 25, I don't need to remind you just how big a deal the Simpson trial was. And one of the things that transformed it from an LA celebrity trial into a national story about race and justice was Jeffrey Toobin's coverage of the events in the New Yorker. Before turning to journalism, Toobin was a lawyer who had worked as a federal prosecutor. The book Toobin eventually wrote about the Simpson trial, the run of his life, is the primary source of the FX series. In the course of consulting on the show, Toobin got to know Cuba Gooding Jr. Who plays O.J. simpson. And they met up the other day to compare notes, starting with what happened to Gooding's voice.

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

It sounds like this for the past three, four months. I think it's something I did in this room.

[Jeffrey Toobin]

Is that true?

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

Really? I really do. I went to an ENT and put that tube down my throat and looked at my vocal cords and they were like a little red. But no, you think there was one.

[Jeffrey Toobin]

Scene in particular that you may have lost it? I mean, you may have damaged your voice.

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

It was one of those things. As you know, there was not more than three or four days that would pass where I'd have to yell and we, you know, when you're doing a scene, you yell take after take after take after take. And this condition kind of developed through the six months of filming this thing.

[Jeffrey Toobin]

Have you ever worked on a longer shoot than this?

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

No, never. And I believe that this is why we have this golden age of television, because you have real filmmakers that are telling stories not in a three hour restriction, but 10 and 13 hours, and they get to develop, you know, all aspects of whatever idea of a story they have. We delve so deeply in the backstory of these characters. We go to Chris Darden's house, we meet his father, we meet the other people and Marcia and her divorce, and we see her struggle through that. And as you see the behind the scenes of these people, you see the perfect storm of events in the courtroom and how they're outside the courtroom lives, you know, affect their judgment inside the courtroom.

[Jeffrey Toobin]

So let me start with your experience with the backstory. Now, you know, one of the things I think all of us involved in this project get used to is what I think of as the official question, which is, where were you during the Bronco chase?

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

Right.

[Jeffrey Toobin]

Where were you during the Bronco chase?

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

I was watching the next game, one of the playoff games, at a party with a bunch of people. And I remember we had the game on A big screen. And in the corner of the screen, they cut to an image of the Bronco on the freeway.

[Jeffrey Toobin]

So what'd you think when you were watching it?

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

I was, you know. You know, I had identified with the fact that he was an African American personality, celebrity, and he was being accused of something that he might not have done had you ever met him. I did. You know, it was the height of the boys in the hood hoopla, and I could go to any nightclub and they would get me a table and they'd have other celebrities in the club come by the table and say hi. And he was one of them. I remember him walking up in his leather pants and he had, like, a girl on each arm. He was like, man, that movie was powerful. And he called me like, young buck or something like that. And then he walked off. And that was. That was. I'll never forget it.

[Jeffrey Toobin]

Now, my experience with this case begins when I start to write about it. And I have this conversation with Bob Shapiro, which is dramatized in the film.

[Journalist]

Thanks for taking the time to see me. I'm doing a piece on Cash for Trash stories. Witnesses selling their testimony.

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

The O.J.

[Journalist]

Simpson trial seemed like a.

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

No, no.

[Bob Shapiro]

It's inconsequential. It's window dressing. It's not the best use of your time with me.

[Journalist]

It's the story I'm out here to cover.

[Bob Shapiro]

I know it is, but wouldn't you rather ask me why a man like me would take a case like this? You might be surprised.

[Journalist]

I might be surprised if I'm surprised. Okay, tell me.

[Bob Shapiro]

Because of its far reaching implications. I've never seen anything like it. And I couldn't stand by and let it happen. Please.

[Journalist]

Let what happen exactly?

[Bob Shapiro]

The systematic railroading of OJ Simpson by a racist LAPD because he is a black man.

[Journalist]

Okay, wait. So all the blood evidence. Somehow these cops, a cabal of racist police officers, planted it? From the murder scene to the Bronco to Rockingham.

[Bob Shapiro]

Who else could have? Jeff, you look like a smart kid. Don't rush to judgment. We will show that it's impossible for a black man to get a fair shake with the lapd. We will prove this.

[Journalist]

So you're gonna say this case is all about race?

[Bob Shapiro]

Yes, because it. And I'm just simply shedding a light on it.

[Jeffrey Toobin]

What was your reaction as you were seeing that just as a citizen, you know, watching the drama unfold.

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

So I remember announcing that they had reached a verdict, and I remember holding my breath and them saying not guilty and feeling a huge sigh of Relief.

[Jeffrey Toobin]

Explain that. Why did you feel like this?

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

I didn't care if he did it or not. I just didn't want them to accuse another black man for a crime he didn't commit. White men get off all the time. Rich men get off all the time. This is one of our heroes. And, you know, you think about it, I was a young, black, successful entertainer, you know, movie star, and I really looked at it as, this could be you, Cuba. This could be you being blamed for doing something horrible and the cops planting evidence against you. That's how I, you know, that's the only frame of mind that I ever had put myself in. To be honest with you, Jeffrey, it wasn't until reading the research and doing this that I finally felt a sense of guilt for feeling that way.

[Jeffrey Toobin]

Huh? You later felt guilty. Why did you feel guilty?

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

I did, because never once did I consider the families. I never considered the Goleman families. I never considered the Browns. You know, whether you believe he did it or not, there were two families, lives that were shattered.

[Jeffrey Toobin]

The ambivalence you're describing of, you know, in the different ways you reacted to the verdict reminds me of your performance, because you. Your portrayal of OJ Is not just the guilty murderer and not just the charismatic innocent man. You can see him through different perspectives.

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

Well, I know that's the agreement that Ryan and I had come to terms with.

[Jeffrey Toobin]

That's Ryan Murphy, who is one of the executive producers. And what was the. What. What was that agreement?

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

Ryan and I got to a place during filming where it was almost like a shorthand. Like, he would walk up to me and whisper before I take, okay, this time I want you to experience the guilt of what you did, you know, and then he'd come back and say, all right, now, this time I want you to experience the frustration because, you know, your son did it, or, you know, he. It was like little things like that that would just set me in that.

[Jeffrey Toobin]

That strikes me as a non actor, as very difficult, even in the context of acting. Because, I mean, have you ever had a part where you had to play someone so differently within the same scenes?

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

I think that's the gig, really. I'll never, you know, that's the. That's the artistry I'll never forget. My first master class was on the set of a film called Outbreak. And Dustin Hoffman, he pulled me aside after I'd been weeping in this one scene, he said, laugh. During this take, he goes, just laugh. Just do it. Do it. The opposite, man. And I did. And actually Found something that worked. And I think as an actor, you can't judge your character. You can't come in and say, this is how I'm gonna play this scene.

[Jeffrey Toobin]

Let me ask you about one scene in particular which is so dramatic and so meaning, which is during the Bronco chase, because all of us in the outside world, we saw the outside of the Bronco. But what is so captivating is you see the inside of the Bronco, and you see you, O.J. holding the gun, contemplating whether to commit suicide.

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

That's right.

[Voice Actor (O.J. Simpson's Inner Voice)]

What do you want me to do, O.J.

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

I should die.

[Voice Actor (O.J. Simpson's Inner Voice)]

No. Put the gun down, Juice.

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

I'm tired of you driving me around. AC Tell me what you need. Take me to the cemetery.

[Voice Actor (O.J. Simpson's Inner Voice)]

No. Oh, man. We did that already.

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

I don't know what is happening. Why is this happening to me? I don't understand. I had such a beautiful family. Nicole and Sydney and Justin.

[Voice Actor (O.J. Simpson's Inner Voice)]

You still got the kids, Juice. All right? Think about the kids.

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

Just. Just take me home. I want to see Mama. Brother.

[Voice Actor (O.J. Simpson's Inner Voice)]

We've got half the police in California in pursuit. They might not let us.

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

I want to. You know, it's funny. For the longest time, I would hear actors talk about how it was difficult to shake a character, and I always thought it was bull. I remember Heath Ledger said it with the Joker character. And after this role, I understood it. I truly understood that you go through a psychosis, and it literally took me, I don't know, months maybe. You know, it's so funny because I'm still today haunted by certain frame minds I don't want to put myself in. You know, there's this wonderful series called Making of a Murderer that I have not watched because I just can't go there. I can't. I'm not ready to allow myself to indulge in that again. And that's why I probably won't watch this for a while. You ever seen a movie and you start to cry in a movie? Well, think about an actor and what got you to that emotional place. You go there again.

[Jeffrey Toobin]

You know, let me move on to something that I found. A very sort of moving story. One of the episodes is directed by John Singleton, who directed you in Boyz N the Hood.

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

That's right.

[Jeffrey Toobin]

And when you appeared on the set. Tell what happened.

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

No, it was really cool. We did a few takes of a scene, and he goes, come here. And he pulls me onto the quiet part of the mock version of the courtroom, pulls in there, and he turns to me and he starts crying, and he starts shaking, and he's hugging me, and I start crying because I don't know what he's gonna say. And he goes, we've come full circle. We've come full circle. You know, he says, our careers do you realize? And I get emotional thinking about it. But he was right, because I was 22 years old. He was 22. And now here we are telling about the social ills in Los Angeles, police harassment all over again 25 years later. And it was just that moment that really. That really hit home with him emotionally.

[Jeffrey Toobin]

Well, and that story resonates for so many reasons, not least because we are in a moment now where the subject of African Americans in the film business is top of mind. You won an Academy Award. John was nominated for an Academy Award, but this year, no African American actors have been nominated for Academy Awards. What's your thought? How do you regard the situation now in Hollywood for African American. African American actors?

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

You know, do we start with the negative or the positive? Say the positive. I've been an Academy member since I worked on Outbreak. Again, I mentioned that movie, and that.

[Jeffrey Toobin]

Was even before Jerry Maguire.

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

Oh, yeah.

[Jeffrey Toobin]

So you were. You were an Academy member even before you won your.

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

To become Academy member. This was in 1993. 92. You have to have starred in three major motion pictures and be nominated by two Academy members. And then you put your application in. My two sponsors were Dustin Hoffman and Kevin Spacey. I was, and I still am so proud that I got in when I got in and then a few years later, wind up winning the damn thing. Okay, but, you know, there was also statements made by Jada Pinkett Smith and Will Smith asking for boycott. When I won my award, those two individuals stood up first in that audience, and I will always love them for that. Even though if I was invited to go, I would attend. Absolutely. But I think it was necessary for that dialogue to be started because it promoted change in the voting, and there is a place for people to voice. Even if it's a radical voice, it promotes change, and that's why we're in the better place we are today.

[Jeffrey Toobin]

So you don't support a boycott, but you're glad that people are talking about that?

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

That's right. That's exactly right.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

That was Jeffrey Toobin talking with Cuba Gooding Jr.

[Narrator]

Right now, we are living through some of the most tumultuous political times our country has ever known. I'm David Remnick, and each week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, I'll try to make sense of what's happening alongside politicians and thinkers like Cory Booker, Nancy Pelosi, Liz Cheney, Tim Waltz, Ketanji Brown Jackson, Newt Gingrich, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Charlemagne, tha God, and so many more. That's all in the New Yorker Radio Hour, wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Cuba Gooding Jr.]

From prx.