The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: David Remnick and Jane Mayer on Counterterrorism After Boston
Date: April 26, 2013
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guests: David Remnick (Editor, The New Yorker), Jane Mayer (Staff Writer, The New Yorker)

Overview

In this episode, Dorothy Wickenden leads a deep discussion with David Remnick and Jane Mayer on the U.S. government's counterterrorism strategies in the aftermath of the Boston Marathon bombing. They explore the similarities and differences between Obama and Bush-era policies, the legal and moral challenges of prosecuting terrorism, the effectiveness (and pitfalls) of surveillance, the controversies surrounding drones and Guantanamo Bay, and the delicate balance between national security and civil liberties.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Boston Bombing & Policy Implications

• David Remnick notes the “miracle” is not that Boston happened but that similar attacks haven't happened more frequently in America, given the abundance of soft targets ([02:20]).
• He frames the attack as a “rogue mission” by the Tsarnaev brothers, with strong influence from the elder sibling, highlighting challenges inherent in preventing lone-wolf style attacks in open societies.

“What we saw in Boston was...a rogue mission by two brothers...but it’s a wonder that this hasn’t happened more because these are very soft targets. We cannot control absolutely everything all the time.”
— David Remnick [02:20]

2. Media Coverage and Public Fear

• Wickenden questions whether relentless media attention amplifies terrorist goals by inflaming public fear ([03:37]).
• Remnick warns against distorting American democracy in the name of security, noting the rush to treat the younger Tsarnaev as an enemy combatant was quickly rejected, reaffirming faith in the justice system ([04:04]).

“I think what would be worse...is to distort our democracy, which is what happened in many instances in the aftermath of 9/11.”
— David Remnick [04:04]

3. Legal Process: Enemy Combatant Designation

• Jane Mayer discusses the push, primarily by Senators McCain and Graham, to classify the younger Tsarnaev as an enemy combatant, rejecting Miranda rights to facilitate interrogation ([05:01]).
• She cites expert David Kris, saying that having a lawyer present actually increases the chances a terror suspect will cooperate ([05:14]).

“They’ve actually had better luck getting information out of people when they have lawyers present.”
— Jane Mayer [05:29]

• The “facts run one way and the politics runs the other”; some politicians advocate for waterboarding, despite its ineffectiveness.

4. Surveillance, Technology, and Civil Liberties

• Jane Mayer marvels at the fusion of surveillance cameras and citizen cellphone images that aided in the Boston investigation ([07:08]).
• She highlights the growing awareness of extensive government surveillance, including online monitoring. National security agencies are “plugged into” online behavior, “pinging” on dangerous material ([07:56]).

“The idea that you could see all those photographs in the crowds, that combined with people’s cell phones, I think, has been pretty amazing...”
— Jane Mayer [07:08]

• There are an estimated 700,000 people on federal watch lists, but, as Remnick notes, even those on the lists (like Tamerlan Tsarnaev) can commit attacks unhindered.

5. Inter-Agency Coordination and Intelligence Failures

• Discussion about failures of inter-agency communication: FBI, CIA, Homeland Security, and Russian intelligence all had Tsarnaev on their radar, yet coordination issues persisted ([09:03]-[09:44]).
• Jane Mayer says the facts are still unclear, and whether negligence occurred remains unresolved.

6. Obama vs. Bush: Counterterrorism Philosophies

• The episode juxtaposes Bush and Obama’s rhetoric on terrorism, finding Obama’s policies “often appear little different from those of his predecessor” ([01:14]-[01:57]).
• Though Obama made changes, the biggest shift is drone policy.
• Remnick and Mayer discuss the tradeoff between open democracy and national security—especially considering the U.S.’s record of foiling terror plots and adopting new technologies with moral implications ([10:38]-[12:03]).

“The technology makes it seem all so easy, and it’s far from it.”
— David Remnick [11:56]

“His greatest regret was the drone policy...there’s going to be a price to pay. There are going to be unintended consequences.”
— Jane Mayer [12:07]

• Obama’s war paradigm, classifying terrorists as warriors rather than criminals, enables legal cover for drones and indefinite detention, but raises troubling issues for civil liberties and international law ([12:03]-[14:33]).

7. Guantanamo Bay and Indefinite Detention

• Wickenden calls Guantanamo the “most troubling symbol” of post-9/11 America. With a hunger strike underway, questions loom about the legality and justice of indefinite detention ([14:58]).
• Mayer notes Obama genuinely tried to close Guantanamo, but congressional opposition (and public indifference) make closure unlikely ([16:10]).

“To have them in legal limbo is a horrendous symbol or a counter symbol to what our justice system should be.”
— David Remnick [16:41]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On lone-wolf terrorism:
  “It’s a wonder that this hasn’t happened more...we cannot control absolutely everything all the time.”
  — David Remnick [02:20]

• On the legal system:
  “There’s a 100% record of prosecuting terrorists on our territory. Our justice system is pretty damn good...”
  — David Remnick [04:19]

• On interrogation with lawyers:
  “Better luck getting information out of people when they have lawyers present...”
  — Jane Mayer [05:29]

• On drone strikes:
  “There’s going to be a price to pay. There are going to be unintended consequences.”
  — Jane Mayer [12:07]

• On the moral difficulty of the “war” paradigm:
  “To merely label them as criminals as if they were bank robbers or murderers...doesn’t quite do the job either.”
  — David Remnick [13:44]

• On Guantanamo:
  “To have them in legal limbo is a horrendous symbol or a counter symbol to what our justice system should be.”
  — David Remnick [16:41]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Bush vs. Obama on Terrorism: [01:14]-[01:57]
• Soft Targets & Changing Threats: [02:20]
• Media's Role in Amplifying Fear: [03:37]-[04:04]
• Calls to Treat Tsarnaev as Enemy Combatant: [04:19]-[05:14]
• Interrogation Techniques & Miranda Rights: [05:29]
• Government Surveillance, Watch Lists, and Internet Monitoring: [07:08]-[08:44]
• Failures in Coordination Across Agencies: [09:03]-[09:44]
• Drones, Legal Paradigms, and Moral Haziness: [11:24]-[14:33]
• Guantanamo Bay & Indefinite Detention: [14:58]-[16:41]

Conclusion

The episode offers a nuanced look at the post-Boston landscape of U.S. counterterrorism. The guests emphasize the complexity of preventing attacks in open societies, the dangers of overreaction and rights erosion, the challenges of new technologies (from surveillance to drones), and the deep-seated problems embodied in Guantanamo Bay. Despite political divides, they agree on the need for justice, transparency, and adherence to American values—even in the face of terrorism’s persistent threat.