Debbie Walsh Talks to Amy Davidson About the Challenges Facing Women in Politics

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Episode: Debbie Walsh Talks to Amy Davidson About the Challenges Facing Women in Politics
Date: January 17, 2017
Host: Amy Davidson
Guest: Debbie Walsh, Director of the Center for American Women and Politics at Rutgers University

Main Theme:
This episode explores the persistent and multifaceted challenges that women face when running for political office in the United States, especially at the highest levels. Drawing context from the aftermath of the 2016 presidential election and Hillary Clinton's historic candidacy, the conversation delves into institutional, cultural, and psychological barriers for women in politics, and discusses what it will take to finally see a woman in the White House.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Impact of Gender in the 2016 Election

• Hillary Clinton's Popular Vote Victory and Electoral Loss
  • Amy Davidson underscores the outsized role gender played in the campaign, stating bluntly:

    "One that we can't deny is that Clinton's gender was an issue. It was an issue. Clearly, some people are not willing, whether they admit it or not, to have a woman lead the country." (03:00)

  • This sets the stage for discussing ongoing challenges facing women seeking high office.

2. The Case for Women Running for Office

• Debbie Walsh's Direct Appeal
  • When asked for her "30-second pitch" to women considering running, Walsh stresses:

    "The challenges that this country are facing right now are enormous. And we cannot afford to keep half of the talent and the creativity on the sidelines...if you are not at the table, you are probably on the menu. And we need to make sure that women are at the table when policy decisions are being made that affect their lives." (02:47)

  • She points out that politics remains gendered and highlights the low numbers of women at key stepping-stone positions—only 21 women in the U.S. Senate.

3. Pipeline and Pool: Realism vs. Optimism

• Why Aren't More Women Eyeing the Presidency?
  • The host challenges Walsh on why more women senators and governors aren't considering a White House bid.
  • Walsh responds, acknowledging the cultural and self-perception barriers:

    "I think there are a few women now who clearly are being talked about. Obviously, Elizabeth Warren...Kirsten Gillibrand...Kamala Harris...But I think that we have to be realistic that the pool is still relatively small." (04:21–04:43)

  • Host suggests looking at the pipeline as "half full" rather than "half empty," but Walsh counters that progress has been "frustratingly slow," with percentages of women in Congress and legislatures barely increasing:

    "We came out of this election with exactly the same number of women in Congress. We went from 24.5% women in state legislatures to 24.8%." (05:41)

4. The Double Bind and Gendered "Realism"

• Are Women Too Realistic?
  • Host questions, "part of the challenge here [is] getting women to be a little unrealistic? ...maybe the handicap that women have is that they're too realistic compared to men..." (06:06)
  • Walsh broadens the "double bind" facing women:

    "I think it would be very hard for a woman who had the level of experience of a Donald Trump to get elected president...Carly Fiorina who ran for president...did the strongest debate performance...But yet it didn't work for her, being that consummate outsider. I think that it's a real double bind. You need to be the outsider a bit. Right. But you still have to prove that you're qualified." (06:25–07:32)

5. Global Contrasts & Imagination

• Other Countries Have Broken This Ceiling
  • The host notes that many countries, not necessarily known for women's equality, have elected women leaders: Germany (Merkel), Great Britain, India, Pakistan.
  • Walsh attributes part of the difference to the U.S. political structure, which disadvantages outsiders unless they have "billions of dollars at their disposal." (08:19)

6. The Myth of "Working Your Way Up"

• Rethinking Routes to Power
  • Walsh warns of the burnout cycle in "working up the ladder":

    "I think it's something that women are told more often, you know, work your way up. And so they feel they have to start at the school board level and then maybe run for local municipal office and then the state legislature...And they just get burned out, and they don't run for anything else." (08:56)

  • Encourages women to seize opportunities at higher levels when available:

    "When, in fact, the reality is, if the opportunity comes along, if there's an open seat, if you're positioned, if you've been active in the community, you know...And go big, go big." (10:26–10:28)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Being at the Table
  Debbie Walsh:

  "If you are not at the table, you are probably on the menu." (02:56)

• On Political "Realism"
  Interviewer:

  "Isn't part of the challenge here getting women to be a little unrealistic? Or maybe the handicap that women have is that they're too realistic compared to men, that you need to be a little out there?" (06:06)

• On Double Standards for Experience
  Debbie Walsh:

  "I think it would be very hard for a woman who had the level of experience of a Donald Trump to get elected president." (06:25)

• On Burnout and the Political Pipeline
  Debbie Walsh:

  "They just get burned out, and they don't run for anything else. You know, you can't even go to the grocery store because everybody knows you, and they're upset because you're doing something with their kids." (09:49)

• On Rethinking Pathways
  Debbie Walsh:

  "If the opportunity comes along...go big, go big." (10:26–10:28)

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Important Segments by Timestamp

• 01:35–02:36: Setting the stage—Clinton's loss and the question of gender in U.S. presidential politics
• 02:47–03:54: Debbie Walsh’s pitch to women about why they should run; discussion of the gendered nature of politics
• 04:21–05:41: The size of the pipeline: which women might be ready, and why the pool is still "relatively small"
• 06:06–07:32: Discussion of "realism" vs. ambition; the double standard in outsider candidates
• 07:32–08:19: International examples of women breaking the highest glass ceiling
• 08:56–10:28: The myth of "working your way up," burnout, and the need for boldness in seeking higher office

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Conclusion

The episode offers a candid exploration of the structural, cultural, and psychological barriers facing women in politics, especially when it comes to breakthrough roles like the presidency. Walsh and Davidson analyze why progress has been slow, debate the qualities needed to encourage more women to run at every level, and urge a rethink of the traditional ladders of political success. Their insights stress the necessity of both cultural change and strategic ambition: "If the opportunity comes along...go big, go big."

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Transcript

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[Dorothy Wickenden]

I'm Dorothy Wickenden. On today's Politics and More podcast, the New Yorker's Amy Davidson talks to Debbie Walsh, director of the center for American Women and Politics at Rutgers University. They'll discuss the considerable challenges facing women who are seeking office in the United States.

[Amy Davidson]

You know those scenarios in which a butterfly flaps its wings or somehow a breeze blows in a certain direction, some inconsequential act, and it changes the course of human history. In one of those scenarios, somehow Hillary Clinton will take the oath of office on Friday. Just not in this universe. We know that although Hillary Clinton won a popular majority by almost 3 million votes, she lost in the Electoral College. And there are all kinds of reasons for that which we don't have to go into. One that we can't deny is that Clinton's gender was an issue. It was an issue. Clearly, some people are not willing, whether they admit it or not, to have a woman lead the country. The New Yorker's Amy Davidson has spent a lot of time this year thinking about the barriers that women face in politics and who the first Female chief executive just might be whenever she arrives. Amy spoke with Debbie Walsh, the director of the center for American Women in Politics at Rutgers University, which tries to get more women into office.

[Interviewer (Possibly Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

Say a woman comes to you who's sort of on the fence. Give me the 32nd pitch you would give her why she should run for office.

[Debbie Walsh]

The challenges that this country are facing right now are enormous. And we cannot afford to keep half of the talent and the creativity on the sidelines. And we can't just wait every four years for a presidential race to be engaged in the political process. Our democracy demands that we are engaged in this process all the time. And there's a wonderful saying that if you are not at the table, you are probably on the menu. And we need to make sure that women are at the table when policy decisions are being made that affect their lives. I think that politics is still very much gendered space. One of the challenges that we have when we think about women running for the presidency is that by and large, this year being an exception, clearly. But by and large, we elect our presidents either from the United States Senate or as from the governors across the country. And right now, There are only 21 women serving in the United States Senate.

[Interviewer (Possibly Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

Or you could think about it there, there are 21 women serving in the United States Senate. Again, all of whom were at least where Obama was in terms of seniority and experience. That's 21. I mean, it's not 50, but it's 21 people. Who. Why isn't each and every one of them asking, why don't I run for president?

[Debbie Walsh]

Well, we don't know that they're not thinking that. I mean, I think there are.

[Interviewer (Possibly Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

Or why aren't we asking them?

[Debbie Walsh]

Yeah, I think that's probably more the issue. I think there are a few women now who clearly are being talked about. Obviously, Elizabeth Warren is somebody who people are talking about as a potential presidential candidate. Senator Kirsten Gillibrand from New York.

[Interviewer (Possibly Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

I've got more names.

[Debbie Walsh]

There's even been conversations and articles written about Kamala Harris, who just was sworn in into her first term from California, about the potential for her as a presidential candidate. But I think that we have to be realistic that the pool is still relatively small. On the gubernatorial side, we only have five women governors. And then there are all kinds of considerations. What state they come from, their ability to raise money, whether they want it or not.

[Interviewer (Possibly Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

Yeah, but a lot of men throw those doubts aside. I just wonder if we should be thinking about the pool as being, you know, seeing it as a half full pipeline rather than a half empty pipeline.

[Debbie Walsh]

I'm often the half empty person on this subject because I think what's been so frustrating is to watch the numbers below the presidential level move as slowly as they have.

[Interviewer (Possibly Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

Yeah.

[Debbie Walsh]

So, I mean, we're talking about this election cycle where there was a woman running at the top of the ticket for the very first time in history as a nominee. And we came out of this election with exactly the same number of women in Congress. We went from 24.5% women in state legislatures to 24.8%.

[Interviewer (Possibly Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

Now, you said that we needed to be realistic, but isn't part of the challenge here getting women to be a little unrealistic? Or maybe the handicap that women have is that they're too realistic compared to men, that you need to be a little out there?

[Debbie Walsh]

Well, I think it would be very hard for a woman who had the level of experience of a Donald Trump to get elected president of the United States. I think about a Carly Fiorina who ran for president on the Republican side, and I think in many ways you'd have to say did the strongest debate performance of most of the candidates up there, certainly in many ways stronger than Donald Trump. And he took her on and did a lot of the same kind of playing his gender card with her and the way he had with Jeb Bush and he did with Marco Rubio and he tried it with her. And I think she really took him on in the debate and silenced him in a way that I think there almost nobody else was able to do. But yet it didn't work for her, being that consummate outsider. I think that it's a real double bind. You need to be the outsider a bit. Right. But you still have to prove that you're qualified.

[Interviewer (Possibly Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

Gabby, let me ask you this. We've talked about this as the tallest, the hardest glass ceiling, but it's a ceiling that's been broken by a lot of other countries around the world, including some that we don't think of being ahead of us on women's rights, you know, not just places like Germany and Great Britain, India, Pakistan.

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[Interviewer (Possibly Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

Take Merkel. You know, she was East German. So until sort of early middle age, she was an obscure scientist in East Germany. And do we need to have more of that just crazed imagination here about. About how you can change your life by running for. For office or getting into politics?

[Debbie Walsh]

I think it's one thing if you have the imagination to run and the structure that we have set up in this country, I think Makes it very difficult for that complete outsider, unless perhaps that outsider has billions of dollars at their disposal to. To put into a campaign. So I think that does make it hard for that real outsider to kind of come in and run for the presidency.

[Interviewer (Possibly Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

So are you saying Sheryl Sandberg should be thinking about running for president?

[Debbie Walsh]

I've been very interested in some of the women who are, and sadly, there are not enough of them. Right. Who are CEOs of major Fortune 500 companies. But to see some of these women who can take kind of that express, look, ramp into politics, you know, some of the women who. I don't know if it's to go directly to the presidency, but to go directly to the Senate, to go directly to the House, to not necessarily think that you have to run, you know, work your way up. And I think that's actually a myth, and I think it's something that women are told more often, you know, work your way up. And so they feel they have to start at the school board level and then maybe run for local municipal office and then the state legislature. Now, if you want to be in school board, great, run for school board. But I sometimes worry that what happens is women will run for school board and municipal office. And frankly, that's some of the toughest work there is to do out there. And they just get burned out, and they don't run for anything else. You know, you can't even go to the grocery store because everybody knows you, and they're upset because you're doing something with their kids. So I think we can run the risk of burning women out before they even get started. When, in fact, the reality is, if the opportunity comes along, if there's an open seat, if you're positioned, if you've been active in the community, you know.

[Interviewer (Possibly Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

And go big, go big.

[Debbie Walsh]

Yeah.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

That was Debbie Walsh talking to Amy Davidson.

[Katie Drummond, Michael Colory, and Lauren Good]

I'm Katie Drummond. I'm Wired's global editorial director. I'm Michael Colory, Wired's Director of consumer tech and Culture. And I'm Lauren Good. I'm a senior correspondent at Wired. And our show, Uncanny Valley, is about the people, power and influence of Silicon Valley. And right now, Silicon Valley and Washington have never been more intertwined. So each week, we get together to talk about a big story, often at the intersection of tech and politics.

[Interviewer (Possibly Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

Right.

[Katie Drummond, Michael Colory, and Lauren Good]

So whether we're talking about Trump, Coin, Doge, or Elon Musk, we will always explain how these Silicon Valley forces are affecting Washington and how they affect you. Make sure you're following Uncanny Valley in your podcast app of choice so you don't miss an episode.

[Debbie Walsh]

From prx.