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The Political Scene | The New Yorker
E. Jean Carroll and Roberta Kaplan on Defamatory Trump
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E. Jean Carroll and Roberta Kaplan on Defamatory Trump
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- [00:00]
A
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- [01:17]
B
This is the political scene and I'm David Remnant. Earlier this month, E. Jean Carroll won an unprecedented legal victory in a civil suit. Donald Trump was found liable for sexual abuse against her in the mid-90s and for defamation in accusing her of trying to pull off a hoax. But no sooner was that decision announced that the former president turned around and repeated his attack using the same sort of defamatory insults that we've heard and grown so used to over the years. And he played it for laughs in his recent live interview on cnn. What kind of a woman meets somebody and brings him up and within minutes you're playing hanky panky in a dressing room? Eugene Carroll has now filed an amended complaint based on Trump's continued statements about the case. I spoke with Carol, along with her attorney, Roberta Kaplan, who is known for her work on sexual violence. So on May 9, Donald Trump was found liable for sexual abuse and defamation in your suit against him. And not a day later, in Trump's inimitable fashion, he called you a whack job and he made fun of you about what had happened to you during a CNN town hall broadcast around the world. Tell me about watching that or experiencing that and what you felt.
- [02:57]
C
Well, David, the happiest day of my life was on May 9th. Robbie and I stood in that courtroom and heard nine jurors respond that we had been telling the truth. And the moment of joy was so incredible. It was like a new. A new world had opened up to me. And I think Robbie sort of felt the same. We were both just ascending. We have a great evening. We walk back into the office. She champagne is flying, music is playing. We are literally dancing and tears of joy flying out of people's eyes the next day. We are just getting used to being so happy in a new world. And I was so tired from being happy. I was in bed when CNN started with the former president. And Robbie sent me the transcript of what Trump had said. And it was a plunge from the heights down to the depth. It was an amazing experience. I mean, the ride down was so swift and so sure.
- [04:22]
B
You know, it's easy to make an assumption that in the MeToo era, certainly since the Harvey Weinstein reporting and so on, which, by the way, Robbie Kaplan knows quite a bit about these cases, that people take sexual assault more seriously. And yet you heard this laughter in the crowd. And then you read what you read on Twitter. Now, life is not Twitter, and the full population of the United States was not in that room with Donald Trump, but it is numerous. Were you surprised by the reaction?
- [04:56]
C
I was stunned by the reaction because it was not a slap against me. It was a slap up against almost every single woman who was hearing him, every woman who's just been merely pinched or grabbed. And then the guy laughs and denies at every woman hearing him saying those terrible things about me. I'm sure they felt as they were hurt like I was.
- [05:28]
B
Robbie Kaplan, you have filed an amendment to a separate defamation lawsuit that's still pending. Can you explain where we are legally?
- [05:37]
D
Yeah, it's complicated. So let me try to do it as simply as I can, David. When E. Jean wrote her book and an excerpt from it was published in New York Magazine, Trump responded almost immediately with what we call a three day defamation rampage. Kind of classic Trump. He ramped up the rhetoric each day saying crueler and more vicious things. And those were the statements that we originally sued him for defamation about that case, which is just limited to that defamation we filed in the fall of 2017. And because he made those statements as president or he was, let me withdraw that. I would not say he made them as president. Because his job was president when he made those statements. It's gotten wrapped up in some very complicated technical issues about whether or not the Department of Justice should be the proper defendant, whether the case should be dismissed, because you can't sue a sitting president for something he does as president for defamation, etc. And it's been on kind of a Dickensian three year path through the federal court system and it's still pending. And that case is now before Judge Kaplan. The second case, which we call Carol, affectionately call Carol 2, which was the case that was just tried, that was for the underlying assault because New York passed a law that allowed women now to sue for assaults that happened outside the statute of limitations. And two, classic Trump, during the course of the case in October of last year, he made another defamatory statement in and we added that to the case. So that's the case that was just tried and we reached the verdict. And it was the underlying assault, which the jury said was $2 million in damages, and the 2022 defamation, which the jury said was $3 million in damages. But we still have Carol one. And if you think about it, it makes sense. That's where the damages are highest because that's the first time he said this stuff about her. That's when it really damaged her reputation. That's when she lost her job.
- [07:46]
B
That was an advice column in Elle magazine that was discontinued.
- [07:50]
D
Yeah. And so that's the case we want to go forward with before Judge Kaplan. And now we say we also in that case get punitive damages now because he kept on doing it. If anything, it's hard to imagine something that would better justify punitive damages than the defendant continuing to gauge in the tort.
- [08:07]
B
Robbie, what sort of timeline can we expect as this moves forward? Do you expect this to also go before a jury?
- [08:15]
D
Yeah, but it will only go before a jury, as I said before, on damages. So the question about whether Donald Trump's statements are defamatory, that's not been decided. He can't relitigate that, but a jury will be able to decide damages.
- [08:27]
B
Now, there are some people that ask, why pursue legal action? Do you think that it's ever going to change Donald Trump? How will this move the needle in either societally or where it comes to Donald Trump, who's now the front runner in the presidential race on the Republican side for 2024?
- [08:49]
D
Well, let me just. I'm no political expert, so I can't speak to the politics of it. I can say things that I think we proved by a Preponderance. But I think even by a higher standard in this trial, one is that Trump is a liar. He lied about Eugene. He's done it now several times. He continues to do it. He. And he has a pattern in which he lies, the way in which he lies, which is he gets more vicious and more resolute and nastier over time. And we saw that in terms of the three defamations now or the three different times he's defamed Eugene. I'm sure they'll continue before we get to a jury again. And the jury saw that. They saw the videotape of his deposition where he was clearly lying, and they concluded that he was a liar. One of the things I said in my closing argument is in order for Trump to win here, you have to believe that he's the only one telling the truth and that the 11 witnesses that Eugene put on, they are all lying. Well, we know which way the jury came out. They concluded that Eugene and the 10 other witnesses were telling the truth and that Trump was a liar.
- [09:52]
B
E. Jean, I have to ask you, one of the more famous quotations by Donald Trump in the beginning of his presidential campaign was that even if he shot somebody on Fifth Avenue, he could get away with it. Maybe I'm paraphrasing it, but that's more or less the quote. Do you think that era has ended with this decision in court?
- [10:15]
C
I think we're ending it now. It's just not Robby Kaplan, me and the nine juror. I think people are starting to recognize that when Donald Trump defames someone or when Donald Trump lies, people tend to believe it and they act on it. So hence, they attacked the Capitol when he said he won the election. They attacked me because he said I'm a liar and that, you know, horrible things. And Robbie Kaplan has figured out the one way to stop him is to make him pay for lying. And if he were made to pay for shooting somebody on Fifth Avenue, I don't think he would have shot him. Money is precious to him, and Robbie is going to go get some of his money for his lying.
- [11:15]
B
So what you're saying is that this is his moment of comeuppance?
- [11:23]
C
I think it just may be.
- [11:29]
B
Now, Trump did not appear in the courtroom in the last trial, and his lawyer did not call a single witness. Robby, how unusual is that? And how do you think that might have affected the verdict?
- [11:42]
D
It's unbelievably unusual, David, in a civil case. I don't think I've ever had a civil Case where no one from the defendant shows up. I think we all know why he didn't show up here, because I think he thought. And his lawyers definitely told him he would be in worse trouble if he showed up. But to have an empty seat at the defense table is unprecedented, at least in my lifetime. And the jury definitely saw that. Eugene, in great contrast, testified, I think it was for almost three and a half days. Three days, about two and a half to three days, calmly and unbelievably patiently took questions that were really, really hard to answer. And so the contrast between her standing up there, sitting up there, having taken an oath, patiently answering Joe Taino's questions, and Trump not showing up, and then the only way they saw him was on video when I deposed him at Mar a Lago, when he spent a lot of the video just insulting both me and Eugene. The contrast could not have been clear. You were referring to her physical looks, correct?
- [12:46]
B
Just the overall. I look at her, I see her, I hear what she says, whatever. You wouldn't be a choice of mine either, to be honest with you. I hope you're not insulted. I would not, under any circumstances have any interest in you. I'm honest when I say it. She I would not have any interest in. Do you think, Robbie, that Donald Trump, considering his history, will follow the judge's instructions and amp down the rhetoric directed at Eugene? Cuz it doesn't seem so.
- [13:19]
D
No. I mean, not in the near term. I don't think he will. I don't think he can help himself, honestly. I don't think he has enough frontal lobe development in the frontal lobe of his brain to do that. On the other hand, the one thing is e Jean said he understands his money, and at some point he'll understand that every time he does it, it's going to cost him a few million dollars. And that may make a difference.
- [13:41]
B
Although a few million dollars is a trivial sum for him.
- [13:44]
D
Well, that's what he says. We'll see. I'm not sure that he's got millions of dollars liquid lying around to pay the judgment here.
- [13:50]
B
While Donald Trump continues to trash talk you in the ugliest way imaginable. He's been fundraising off of the judgment in this lawsuit. What does that say about the country you live in?
- [14:03]
C
Well, I love this country. I love how the federal court worked. I loved how the jury worked. I love it. I hate to be all positive about this, but I think we've made a difference. I really do. I really feel it, and I don't care What a blowhard he is and says all those terrible things. I think we're convincing people. I really do. David.
- [14:26]
B
Although his poll numbers continue to thrive.
- [14:31]
C
And there's a certain segment of the society that listen, a lot of people don't like women. There's a lot of women haters in this country. I hate to go this route, but you're, you know, and if there's any little thing that Robby and I, the nine members of the jury, can do, defending our truth and letting people know that, yes, Donald Trump is a liar and he dragged me through the mud and he ground my face into the dirt and yes, it happened. I think we can turn just enough women and men at the polls to make sure he doesn't become the next president.
- [15:15]
D
Anyone who knows me would not tell you that I'm someone who's known for my unbridled optimism. Sickle leaf. But there was one thing about this case that was very hopeful to me, probably the most hopeful thing. And that is. And Trump. So another thing he lies about, lies about this. This was not a avocado toast eating jury. We had six men and three women. We had one person from the Bronx, one person from Manhattan. All the rest were from north of Westchester. All nine jurors unanimously hearing the evidence in a court of law according to the rules and with a judge who applied the rules fairly, found what they found. Now, the trick here is the world in social media, as you pointed out, David, is not a courtroom with the rules of evidence. And so I don't know how to kind of expand that out. But it was very helpful to me that this particular jury, which is, you know, not a New York City jury at all, not no one from Brooklyn, it just wasn't a New York City jury that they found and that they, and then it only took them two and a half hours. That was probably the most shocking part of it to me.
- [16:23]
B
Now, E Jin, you're pretty frank about your political distaste for Donald Trump and wanting to see him defeated. And one could hardly blame you on any level for saying that. But I have to ask you, Robby, does that present you a problem as a lawyer?
- [16:45]
D
Well, so one of the arguments that they made in the case, in fact, their main defense in this case, and it's because they didn't have a better one, is that E. Jean, Lisa Birnbach, her friend, who she told at the time, who's a journalist, Carol, who wrote the Preppy Handbook, Carol Martin, who was a TV journalist for many years here in New York city that they all got together at some point because they hate Trump so much that they decided to make up this lie about something that happened in 1996 and really hatch a conspiracy to bring him down. And none of our witnesses, we were very open about this. Not a single one of our witnesses was a fan of Donald Trump's politically or for any other reason. But that didn't change the fact that they were all telling the truth. And so I think the jury, I'm not sure, I don't know to this day whether any of the jurors voted for Donald Trump. I'm pretty confident that they are all, some of them probably like things about Donald Trump. But when they saw the evidence and when they saw the witnesses taking an oath and testifying there on the witness stand, they believed them. And they did not believe that. They were just willing to go and kind of lie and help Eugene and hatch this conspiracy just because they didn't like Donald Trump as president.
- [18:02]
B
Eugene, I have to ask, no matter how the rest of this case goes, whether there are damages recovered or not, I want to ask about your life now. How has your life changed after the verdict? And how do you go on? What's it going to be like?
- [18:21]
C
Well, I just adopted a new dog, a great Pyrenees, the most moral of all dog breeds. The most moral, just the most wonderful dog. She's right here. Ms. Havisham Sham for short. She's just arrived. My life goes on. I live, as you can see, in a tiny cabin. I will go on living in the tiny cabin. It's on an island the size of a mattress. It's in the mountains. But one thing has changed. I am going to dedicate myself to somehow figuring out a way for the women who don't have my platform to hold men accountable. And Robby and I are going to put our heads together. We both are getting these letters. We've said we're going to figure out a and David, that's how my life is going to change. I'm a crone. I'm an elderly woman on a mountaintop. But I think we've got a few good years left to figure out a way to bring well, to end the culture of sexual violence. That's what I want to do.
- [19:47]
B
EG and Carol had a long career as a journalist, and she just filed an amended complaint in her lawsuit against former President Donald Trump. Roberta Kaplan is her attorney. You can read our coverage of the suit@New Yorker.com I'm Katie Drummond.
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