The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: E. Jean Carroll and Roberta Kaplan on Defamatory Trump

Date: May 29, 2023
Host: David Remnick
Guests: E. Jean Carroll, Roberta Kaplan

Episode Overview

This episode features a powerful conversation between The New Yorker’s editor, David Remnick, advice columnist E. Jean Carroll, and attorney Roberta Kaplan. Just weeks after a jury found Donald Trump liable for sexual abuse and defamation against Carroll, Trump publicly repeated his attacks, spurring ongoing legal battles. Carroll and Kaplan detail the emotional and legal journey of holding Trump accountable, the societal significance of the verdict, and the persistent challenges in addressing gendered defamation and sexual misconduct at the highest levels of power.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jury Verdict & Immediate Aftermath

• E. Jean Carroll recounts the verdict day
  • Carroll describes May 9th as “the happiest day of my life,” experiencing elation as the jury found in her favor (02:56).
  • The joy turned quickly when, less than a day later, Trump repeated his defamatory attacks on CNN, which Carroll describes as “a plunge from the heights down to the depth” (03:40).
• Public and Audience Reaction
  • Both Carroll and Remnick discuss their shock as audience members laughed at Trump’s derogatory comments during the CNN broadcast. Carroll emphasizes the personal and collective injury for women witnessing such public contempt (04:56):
    • “It was not a slap against me. It was a slap up against almost every single woman who was hearing him...” – Carroll (04:56)

2. Legal Trajectory: Two Lawsuits

• Roberta Kaplan outlines the two lawsuits:
  • The first defamation suit stemmed from Trump’s initial response to Carroll’s book in 2019, wrapped up in complications over presidential immunity and the Department of Justice’s role (05:37).
  • The second lawsuit ("Carol 2")—the one recently tried—pertained both to the underlying sexual assault (thanks to a new NY law allowing claims outside the statute of limitations) and a 2022 defamatory statement by Trump. The verdict awarded Carroll $2 million for assault and $3 million for defamation (06:57).
• Punitive Damages & Future Steps
  • The initial lawsuit (“Carol 1”) is still pending and may move forward with punitive damages due to Trump’s continued defamation (07:49).
  • Only damages remain to be decided by a jury—Trump cannot contest the defamatory nature of past statements, only the extent of harm (08:15).

3. Purpose and Impact of Legal Action

• Why persist against Trump? Societal Meaning
  • Kaplan argues the trial proved “Trump is a liar”—the jury chose to believe Carroll and her witnesses over Trump (08:49).
    • "In order for Trump to win here, you have to believe he’s the only one telling the truth and that the 11 witnesses that Eugene put on, they are all lying. Well, we know which way the jury came out.” – Kaplan (09:26)
  • Carroll hopes the case signals the end of Trump’s era of impunity, referencing his infamous “I could shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue” boast (10:15):
    • “Robbie Kaplan has figured out the one way to stop him is to make him pay for lying.” – Carroll (10:43)

4. Trial Dynamics: Trump’s Absence

• Unusual Trial Circumstances
  • Trump did not appear in court; his lawyers called no witnesses—Kaplan calls that “unprecedented” in civil litigation (11:42).
  • Carroll endured extensive cross-examination, demonstrating a stark contrast between the parties (12:16).
• Trump’s Continued Defamation
  • Kaplan doubts Trump will heed judicial warnings or temper his rhetoric, but notes he may eventually be deterred by repeated financial penalties:
    • “I don’t think he can help himself, honestly… The one thing is E. Jean said he understands his money, and at some point he’ll understand that every time he does it, it’s going to cost him a few million dollars.” – Kaplan (13:18)

5. Media, Fundraising, and Public Opinion

• Trump Fundraises Off Judgement
  • Carroll remains optimistic about the legal process despite Trump leveraging the case to raise money and retain political support (14:02):
    • “I hate to be all positive about this, but I think we’ve made a difference. I really do.” – Carroll (14:13)
• Societal Attitudes Toward Women
  • Carroll and Remnick discuss persistent misogyny in American society and the challenge of swaying public opinion, especially in politics (14:30).
• Hope from the Jury
  • Kaplan finds hope in the jury’s composition—diverse and not from Manhattan—and quick deliberation (15:14):
    • “All nine jurors unanimously hearing the evidence… found what they found. Now, the trick here is the world in social media... is not a courtroom with the rules of evidence.” – Kaplan (15:36)

6. Political Bias & Witness Credibility

• Defense’s Conspiracy Claim
  • Trump’s team claimed Carroll and her friends conspired out of political animus. Kaplan rebuts, emphasizing the jury assessed credibility based on testimony, not political preference (16:45).

7. Personal Impact and Next Steps

• Life After the Verdict
  • Carroll shares her plans for the future—adopting a “moral” dog (Ms. Havisham), living simply, and dedicating herself to helping women without her platform hold men accountable (18:21):
    • “I am going to dedicate myself to somehow figuring out a way for the women who don’t have my platform to hold men accountable… to end the culture of sexual violence. That’s what I want to do.” – Carroll (19:10)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• E. Jean Carroll on the verdict:

  “The happiest day of my life was on May 9th. Robbie and I stood in that courtroom and heard nine jurors respond that we had been telling the truth… a new world had opened up to me.” (02:56)

• Carroll on Trump’s repeated attacks:

  “It was a plunge from the heights down to the depth. It was an amazing experience. I mean, the ride down was so swift and so sure.” (03:40)

• Kaplan on Trump’s absence:

  “To have an empty seat at the defense table is unprecedented... The jury definitely saw that.” (11:42)

• Kaplan on the jury verdict:

  “All nine jurors unanimously hearing the evidence in a court of law according to the rules… found what they found… That was probably the most shocking part of it to me.” (15:36)

• Carroll’s renewed mission:

  “I am going to dedicate myself to somehow figuring out a way for the women who don’t have my platform to hold men accountable… to end the culture of sexual violence.” (19:10)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:56] — Carroll’s reaction to the verdict and emotional aftermath
• [05:37] — Kaplan breaks down the legal cases and their statuses
• [08:49] — Kaplan on the reason for pursuing legal action and Trump’s pattern of lying
• [10:15] — Carroll discusses whether the case marks the end of Trump’s era of invulnerability
• [11:42] — Kaplan on Trump’s absence from court and trial dynamics
• [13:18] — Will Trump heed the court’s warnings or continue defaming?
• [15:14] — Kaplan expresses hope from the jury’s diversity and swift verdict
• [18:21] — Carroll on how the case is changing her life and her future advocacy plans

Conclusion

This episode of “The Political Scene” offers a nuanced look into the personal, legal, and societal stakes of E. Jean Carroll’s ongoing legal battle with Donald Trump. The discussion reveals both the progress and persistent hurdles in holding powerful figures accountable for sexual misconduct and defamation. Carroll’s and Kaplan’s resolve, reinforced by a hopeful verdict and a sense of civic duty, underscores the wider conversation about women’s rights, public accountability, and the role of the justice system in a polarized America.