Exit Senator McCaskill, Stage Center

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: Exit Senator McCaskill, Stage Center
Date: December 10, 2018
Host: Susan Glasser
Guest: Senator Claire McCaskill (D-MO), with contributions from Dorothy Wickenden
Main Theme: A candid exit interview with Senator Claire McCaskill reflecting on her Senate career, the state of Congress, Trump-era politics, and the future of moderates in U.S. government.

---

Episode Overview

This episode features a retrospective conversation with outgoing Democratic Senator Claire McCaskill of Missouri. After her defeat by Republican Josh Hawley in the 2018 midterms, McCaskill sits down with New Yorker’s Susan Glasser and Dorothy Wickenden for a blunt, wide-ranging discussion. The episode weaves together reflections on McCaskill’s career, the changing nature of the Senate, the Trump effect on Congress, party dynamics, policy frustrations, and her hopes for the future of moderates in American politics.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Atmosphere in Washington – A Moment of Pause

• The episode is set during a rare moment of calm on Capitol Hill as President George H.W. Bush's casket arrives at the Capitol ([01:55]).
• Reflection on the interregnum between fierce partisanship of the outgoing and incoming Congresses; anticipation of greater confrontations as Democrats gain control of the House ([02:40]).

2. McCaskill’s Career and Defeat

• McCaskill’s background as a centrist Democrat and her history of winning against the odds in red-state Missouri ([04:00]).
• Context of Missouri's shift rightward, Trump’s 19-point 2016 win in the state, and the difficulty for Democrats in Trump country ([04:26]).

3. Senate Life: What She Won’t Miss

• McCaskill laments the “brutal schedule,” constant travel, and lack of control over her time ([05:39]).

  “I used to joke that Southwest was my school bus.”

• She voices frustration about the rise of “gotcha stuff,” and the loss of genuine, substantive legislative functioning ([05:39]).

4. The Dysfunction of Congress

• Bipartisan recognition that Congress increasingly fails at core functions, like basic budget and appropriations ([06:36]).

  “We're now doing a CR [continuing resolution] instead of a budget...it has become the new normal.” ([06:59])

• Legislation is now mostly written by party leaders behind closed doors, bypassing committees ([07:47]).
• The growing detachment and cynicism of the public as Congress becomes less transparent and effective ([07:47]).

5. The ‘Trump Effect’ and the GOP Shift

• McCaskill pushes back on blaming Trump for all dysfunction, saying issues predate him but have been exacerbated ([09:19]).

  “It was plenty bad before he arrived on the scene. That’s one of the reasons he arrived on the scene, by the way.”

• Notes how Republican senators who once collaborated across the aisle have retreated, often closing ranks or avoiding controversy ([09:42]).

6. On Lindsey Graham and Republican Behavior

• McCaskill jokes about the “disappearance” of the old Lindsey Graham ([10:07]):

  “We're worried about Lindsey. It feels like he's gone away and all of us are mourning him.”

• She asserts many Republicans are just “waiting [Trump] out” and are not genuinely converted to his ideology ([11:12]):

  “You should hear the way these guys talk about him behind his back...I would never name any names.”

• Predicts GOP senators may one day regret not standing up more forcefully to Trump, especially on trade and fiscal issues ([11:33]).

7. Mitch McConnell’s Political Calculus

• McCaskill emphasizes that McConnell’s primary motivation is maintaining Senate majority, not party ideology or the presidency ([13:16]).

  “He looks at everything through the lens of how can I stay majority floor leader.”

• McConnell aligns with or distances from Trump solely out of political pragmatism ([13:47]).

8. Democratic Fortunes in Red States

• McCaskill rejects the idea that Democrats are finished in Missouri, pointing to her strong showing and the state’s not-so-distant Democratic leadership ([14:49]).
• Attributes Hawley’s win partly to his discipline, campaign focus, and hot-button issues like Kavanaugh and the migrant caravan ([15:43]).

  “So the Kavanaugh thing helped him, the caravan helped him...a lot of intangibles.”

9. On the ‘Caravan’ and Political Optics

• She doesn’t dispute the existence of the caravan but is blunt about the manufactured crisis at the border ([16:09]):

  “That was made for television bullshit.” ([16:24])

10. Trump’s Campaigning Against Her

• Sees Trump’s focus as a strategic move orchestrated by Mitch McConnell, not personal animosity ([16:57]).

11. Democratic Party Leadership and the Future

• McCaskill backs Schumer as Majority Leader, citing his inclusiveness, but acknowledges the need for new, inspiring voices ([17:57]).

  “It really is about who is coming up that is inspiring. Who are the young voices and faces?”

• She contends the political "center" is not dead, referencing Kyrsten Sinema’s moderate win in Arizona ([19:14]).

12. Optimism Amidst Cynicism

• Despite partisan gridlock, McCaskill expresses hope for new leaders and a resurgence of moderation as the political pendulum swings ([20:13]).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Senate Dysfunction and Public Cynicism:

  “The price we're paying is increased cynicism by the American people. And that's not a good thing. I mean, that is something that's very dangerous for this democracy.” — Claire McCaskill ([08:13])

• On Authenticity in Politics:

  “The lack of authenticity, I think, is really problematic for a lot of people around this building... all of you. Pox on all your house.” — Claire McCaskill ([08:48])

• On Trump and Congressional Republicans:

  “It's now his party, period. And I believe there will be a time down the road that some of them will rue the day that they did not speak up more forcefully...” — Claire McCaskill ([11:33])

• On Harry Truman as a Model:

  “If everybody could be more like Harry Truman was...he never used a five dollar word when a nickel word was good enough.” — Claire McCaskill ([20:57])

---

Important Timestamps

• 01:39–03:15: Scene-setting during George H.W. Bush’s casket arrival; the lull in Washington.
• 05:39: McCaskill on what she won’t miss about the Senate.
• 06:36–07:47: In-depth on dysfunction in Senate procedure and legislation.
• 09:05–10:45: Discussion on the Trump effect and Republican behavior.
• 11:12–11:33: How Republicans talk about Trump privately; warnings for the future.
• 13:16: McConnell’s motivation and relationship with Trump.
• 14:49: Can Democrats compete in “Trump country”?
• 15:43–16:50: Dissecting the issues that swayed the Missouri race, including the migrant caravan.
• 17:57–19:14: Democratic leadership, generational change, and the elusive political center.
• 20:57: McCaskill’s admiration for Harry Truman and commitment to speaking plainly.

---

Closing Thoughts

Senator Claire McCaskill offers a refreshingly candid and sometimes blunt assessment of American political life as she leaves the Senate. Her interview is a meditation on authenticity, lost opportunities, shifting alliances, and the enduring value of moderation—setting a thoughtful tone for Democrats pondering their future in red states and for all who seek a government that functions for the people.

---

Transcript

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

As summer draws to a close and the kids go back to school, I know I'm going to want to keep in touch with my kids at a price I can afford. Back to school Shopping can be a hassle, but your phone plan shouldn't be. That's why I made the switch to Mint Mobile. For a limited time, Mint mobile is offering three months of unlimited premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month. So while other parents are sweating overage charges, I have a little bit more room in my budget for cool back to school threads. Say bye bye to your overpriced wireless plan's jaw dropping monthly bills and unexpected overages, Mint Mobile is here to rescue you. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts. Dish overpriced wireless and get three months of premium wireless service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month. This year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your three month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com newyorker that's that's mintmobile.com New Yorker upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month limited time new customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.

[Claire McCaskill]

I'm Dorothy Wickenden. On today's Politics and More podcast, the New Yorker Susan Glasser talks with Missouri Senator Claire McCaskill after 11 years in the Senate. McCaskill, a lifelong moderate Democrat, was defeated in the midterms by a Republican who embraced President Trump.

[Susan Glasser]

In Washington. Staff writer Susan Glasser spent a lot of last week running around Capitol Hill. She always does. She's always up there. But this week she found herself there on a day that wasn't all business.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

So we're here right now and the motorcade with President Bush's casket appears to be arriving. It has landed at Andrews Air Force Base. It is now being driven into the Capitol. And to the rotunda of the Capitol is where he's going to lie in state. There it is right there. And you can see it being driven here. A dramatic scene of the Capitol at sunset. George H.W. bush returning to the place where he served as a young member of Congress many, many years ago. It's quiet. There's a number of mostly very young Hill staffers, some local people as well, who Gathered, taking pictures, taking videos. This is the first time this has happened in 12 years. It's an unusual moment of quiet in Washington as well, almost an inner regnum between the fierce partisan fury of the elections and the fierce partisan fury of the new Congress, when Republican united government will end and the Democrats will take control of the House. And everyone expects it to be an era of even more confrontation between President Trump and his critics.

[Susan Glasser]

As Susan said, the new year brings a major change in the balance of power on Capitol Hill, with the House flipping firmly into Democratic hands while the Senate ticked slightly further into the red. In congressional offices, some new members are measuring the drapes while their departing colleagues are plotting their next steps.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

So we're headed upstairs in the Hart Senate Office building to Senator Claire McCaskill's office. It's her last week there in the office. You know, I've always really liked Senator McCaskill. She is a very outspoken member of the Senate. But it's a lot easier to be outspoken after you've lost.

[Susan Glasser]

Claire McCaskill was elected to the Senate from Missouri in 2006. After serving as a prosecutor and holding other state offices there, she's been considered one of the most moderate, centrist Democrats in the Senate. But in 2016, Missouri voters went for Donald Trump by a whopping 19 points. And in last month's midterms, McCaskill lost to Republican Josh Hawley. She and her staff are in the process of packing boxes.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

The sitting entry room that we're sitting in right now, the reception room in Senator McCaskill's office, is filled with, of course, Missouri's most famous odds defying Democrat Harry Truman. We're sitting right now right beneath a picture of the famous Dewey Defeats Truman headline on the day of Harry Truman's 1948 presidential election victory. McCaskill did not have a Dewey Beats Truman moment a couple weeks ago on her election day, but arguably even her career as a Democrat. At a time when Republicans. Republicans were rapidly gaining control over most of the political offices in Missouri, she'd already defied the odds a number of times before.

[Claire McCaskill]

Good. Nice to see you. Hi, Susan.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

How are you?

[Claire McCaskill]

I'm good.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

All right, so in the spirit of blunt spoken exit interviews, we we're sitting in your really lovely corner office here in the Capitol. Is there anything that you won't miss about this place?

[Claire McCaskill]

Oh, my gosh, yes. The brutal schedule. I used to joke that Southwest was my school bus, and I'd get on Southwest every Monday morning and come home on Southwest every Thursday night. I will Miss the not getting companion pass by June, because I almost always get my companion pass fairly quick because I'm on Southwest so often and not having the freedom of a schedule that you can set that is set by others. I won't miss the gotcha stuff that has become more prevalent in the 12 years I've been here. I obviously will miss the people and I'll really miss the work, and I will miss the opportunity to try to move the needle on things I believe in. And obviously helping people at home with problems that we do pretty well at.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Is the Senate a worse place today than it was in 2006?

[Claire McCaskill]

I think worse is a loaded term. I think it is more in jeopardy of being marginalized by the American people because it doesn't work very well. I think people around here, we get so caught up in how dysfunctional we are. Okay, like, this is a good example this week, okay, we're now doing a cr.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

A continuing resolution.

[Claire McCaskill]

A continuing resolution instead of a budget. And now the big question of the day, is that gonna be one week or two weeks, really? And because it's become the new normal, many members have never been here when there was actually an appropriations process that was more open and more debatable and more amendations or the budget.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

It just blew me away. Congress has basically stopped doing this core part of its job.

[Claire McCaskill]

Yeah. And by the way, when we do it, it has been done by a handful of people in the back room.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Yeah. It's incredible. My son asked me the other day, my 13 year old, if I thought that speed readers would get a lot of jobs on Capitol Hill because they're always releasing those huge bills at the last minute. I thought that was such a cute thing to say. That is great. I was like, well, you know, Theo, I'm not aware of, like, a room full of speed readers. No, it's a good idea, though.

[Claire McCaskill]

No, but the problem is they wouldn't want to hire them because the people who write the bills don't want anybody to read them. The people who are there, There's a handful of people who read everything, and the last thing they want is somebody digging through it all. Same thing with legislation. Legislation's now being written in the majority leader's office instead of in committee. And so the more dysfunctional this place gets, the more people out there in the real world are going, well, you guys suck. You guys are terrible. All of you. Pox on all your house. And so the price we're paying is increased cynicism by the American people. And that's not a good thing. I mean, that is something that's very dangerous for this democracy. One positive thing that could come out of the Trump era is that more elected officials would realize that people will be forgiving of you if you say something stupid once or twice or three times or, you know, several times a year. But the lack of authenticity, I think, is really problematic for a lot of people around this building. They are so poll driven and so scripted. And then I think it's easier to kind of swipe with a broad brush and say, well, they're all phony.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Some people have described President Trump as almost like an accelerant to that, you know, putting those trends on turbocharged when it comes to Washington. How has he made Congress different in the last two years?

[Claire McCaskill]

I don't think it's fair to blame him because it was plenty bad for he arrived on the scene. That's one of the reasons he arrived on the scene, by the way.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

That's right. And Congress has, of course, always been unpopular. We should note that, that Congress is never. It's not like it was a super functional place before.

[Claire McCaskill]

We've never been anywhere close to firefighters on the approval scale. I mean, we are nurses. I mean, those are like the.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

You're fighting it out with journalists at the bottom of the barrel.

[Claire McCaskill]

Exactly. On the other hand, because of almost the cult of his power in the Republican Party, my colleagues that are Republicans that used to spend some time in the middle working to get things done have really kind of gone into their offices and shut their doors.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

You tweeted the other day, what have you done with Lindsey Graham?

[Claire McCaskill]

Yeah, no, we are worried about Lindsey. Lindsey. I'm sure he would say the same thing about me. It would drive me crazy from time to time. But I also knew that when there were things that we could agree on, he was a great partner and somebody who was fearless about whether or not it was the right thing to do. In terms of the Republican brand, it doesn't feel like that Lindsey is around much right now. Now maybe he'll resurface, but it feels like he's gone away and all of us are mourning him.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Do you think that the other Republican members, I mean, virtually all of them were against Trump in the 2016 primaries, and there's end and citations by people like me of all the times they called Trump a kook and unsuited to be president and the like. But have these folks fundamentally changed their mind? Is it purely opportunistic? I mean, are they just no longer free traders anymore? Or they're just waiting him out.

[Claire McCaskill]

They're waiting him out. I mean, this guy would behe should hear the way these guys talk about him behind his back. You know, I'm sure that would unleash all manner of tweets, but. And I would never name any names.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

But I'm sure it's people, including many Missouri Republicans.

[Claire McCaskill]

Oh, no question. Oh, no question. And this is the thing. I mean, the danger for my Republican colleagues that know that many of the things that Trump has done are not their values. It's not the way they see governing. It's now his party, period. And I believe there will be a time down the road that some of them will rue the day that they did not speak up more forcefully, did not say, wait a minute, this idea of using national security as an excuse for a really aggressive trade war with no exit plan. And how about the deficit? They've just abandoned any attempt. And that is really going to hurt sooner rather than later, because as interest rates go up, that budget process is going to get more and more difficult. So it is. It's frustrating to watch. I understand it on an intellectual level, but it doesn't mean that it's not sad.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Well, it's interesting. So you're highlighting sort of the policy conundrum which is part of it. Right. He is an outsider to their party. He's come in, he's won. He doesn't really stand for the same things that have been Republican orthodoxy, things like free trade, Russia, arguably the deficit. Then there's also kind of the character issue, which may become more. More ripe next year, depending on where these investigations go. Will Mitch McConnell stand with him till the end of the end of the end of the end. I mean, theirs is kind of an unlikely alliance, too. Right.

[Claire McCaskill]

Mitch McConnell, I think, will stand with him as long as it is in the interests of the majority of the Senate right now, which is Republicans. He looks at everything through the lens of how can I stay majority floor leader, how can I become majority floor leader, and how can I stay majority floor leader?

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Well, I think that's right. A lot of people don't understand the thing. McConnell is that his dream, unlike a lot of the rest of the Senate, was not to be president. It really is to be Senate majority leader. Lbj, at the height of his power, is his model, right?

[Claire McCaskill]

That's exactly right. And everything he's done and everything he will do will be done with that focus. He is fighting with Trump only when he thinks it's necessary to protect the Republican members of the Senate. He will challenge Trump only when he thinks it's in the best interest of the Republican members of the Senate. He will be quiet and say there's nothing wrong with Trump, or pivot and deflect if he thinks it's in the best interest of the Republican members of the U.S. senate. And so that's what will be the determining factor for Mitch McConnell, is how he can stay in power.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

So you obviously represented Missouri. A lot of people say you're one of the last of the Trump country Democrats, that in the future, it's just going to be impossible to win in a place that has the demographics of a Missouri with this heavy representation of rural counties and the like. Is there a future for Democrats in a place like Missouri?

[Claire McCaskill]

Oh, sure. I got 45% of the vote, and I think if I had never been in politics and had an interesting resume and was an outsider, I think it would have been even closer. So this is a tough patch for Democrats in Missouri, but I do not believe it's the end of the Democrats in Missouri. I think, you know, it wasn't that long ago, it was November of 2016 when the majority of the statewide office holders in Missouri were Democrats. Well, a state doesn't change that much that quickly. This is a thing that's, that's, that was exacerbated by, you know, I mean, and let's give the guy who ran against me some credit. He's young, he's telegenic, he's articulate. He, you know, clearly is intelligent, and he took direction well by his campaign team and stayed very disciplined in the last three months of the campaign. And so the Kavanaugh thing helped him, the caravan helped him. So I think there were a lot of intangibles that helped Josh Hawley win this election.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Was the caravan made up? Was it a fake issue?

[Claire McCaskill]

Well, no, I don't think it is. I mean, there are now 6,000 people that are poor and tired and hungry and living in squalor trying to get into the United States.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Do you need the military to fight 6,000 people?

[Claire McCaskill]

I think all of that might have been political optics. I do think that the caravan presented a problem. It just wasn't a problem that was presented to the American people that somehow we needed to have the military on the border to, what, mow them down as they came across the border? What, shoot them? I mean, that was like, that was made for television bullshit.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Trump came in really hard against you. He was there twice in Missouri in the last week alone. Did you do something to piss him off?

[Claire McCaskill]

No, I just think they looked at the races that they thought they could win to hold the Senate. I think Mitch McConnell did this. I think Mitch McConnell directed this. I made the joke during the campaign that he'd come so often. I figured he was building a golf course somewhere in Missouri because Donald Trump never goes anywhere that frequently unless there's golf involved. But it was painful because I knew that he was building enthusiasm on his side. About 90 days before the election, we felt pretty good. And then the enthusiasm on their side just popped up around the Kavanaugh thing.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

And around his visits and around his visits. Interesting. What about your party, though? Democrats have gone ahead and reelected Schumer here on the Senate side to be Majority leader. Nancy Pelosi looks like she will be elected to speaker of the House. This is not exactly a fresh new face of leadership for the party. Are they the right people to challenge?

[Claire McCaskill]

Oh, I don't. Yeah. I mean, I think Schumer's really good at his job. And I've. I publicly opposed Harry Reid and his reelection at one point just because I didn't think he was the right guy for the job at that moment. I think Chuck's the right guy for the job at this moment because he is very good at trying to pull people together when it really matters and giving people the space to vote against the party line and not get on him. I mean, he was great with me whenever I needed to vote against most of the Democratic caucus because I had a difference of opinion with him. He never made me feel uncomfortable or that I was somehow betraying him or my fellow Democrats. So it really more is about who is coming up that is inspiring. Who are the young voices and faces that are inspiring?

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Is it who they are? And, you know, is the center of gravity changed in the party? If Republicans have seen their party sort of taken over by Trump, there is this interesting split. You know, people like you are more and more a vanishing breed when it comes from, you know, senators who are from Republican leaning states. Is it still possible to. Is there a center?

[Claire McCaskill]

Oh, yeah, there will always be a center. It's not heavily populated right now, but when the pendulum swings back, it will be more populated. You know, Kyrsten Sinema won in Arizona as a moderate. Beto lost in Texas as a progressive. Their states are very similar in terms of their makeup. And Kirsten said, I want to work together. I want to. I'm a moderate. She was not. She was an unabashed moderate. Beto was not that. And so if you wanted to make the argument you could say, well, wait a minute, if this is all about just us being purely progressive, then what's up? Why did Kirsten Cinema win and Beto lose? But I think both of them are examples of new faces that will remind people that we have good ideas and that we get it and we understand how frustrated they are about their health care and about their wages and that we can actually be helpful. And I'm fairly optimistic about that.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

You know, I love that you're ending this note and this conversation on an optimistic note. We don't get a lot of optimism in Washington these days, I have to say, but I love looking around your office, which is in a partial state of deconstruction. I guess this is your last part week.

[Claire McCaskill]

No, I think, well, it depends.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Well, I guess it's supposed to be the last week.

[Claire McCaskill]

Depends on when we pretend that we're actually getting a budget done. I think it will be next week or perhaps the following week. But it's late enough in the game that I've begun packing up. So it is a little bit. A lot of my favorite items have already been packed away.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Although you still have a fantastic collection of Harry Trumaniana, if you could call it that.

[Claire McCaskill]

I am such a fan girl of Harry Truman. I mean, if everybody could be more like Harry Truman was. Imagine what it took for Harry Truman to integrate the armed services. Imagine what the polling said. Can you imagine how many people in America at that moment said, yeah, it's a really good idea for us to integrate the armed services. He just did it. When he left office, he was very unpopular and now everybody wants to be like him. I am embarrassingly well informed on Harry Truman and the one thing that he always did that I swore I would do would just speak plainly. And I think it is one medicine that can cure some of the illness that is around this place. That's who he was. He was never afraid to say exactly what he thought. He never used a five dollar word when a nickel word was good enough. He spoke in plain declarative sentences. He answered questions. I feel good about my effort to emulate him in that regard and I'm going to have a lot of fun continuing to do that for years to come.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Senator Claire McCaskill, thank you so much for being with us on the New Yorker radio.

[Claire McCaskill]

My pleasure.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Thank you.

[Susan Glasser]

Claire McCaskill, she served 12 years as senator from Missouri and departs this month. She spoke with Susan Glasser, our Washington correspondent. Right now we are living through some of the most tumultuous political times our country has ever known. I'm David Remnick, and each week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, I'll try to make sense of what's happening alongside politicians and thinkers like Cory Booker, Nancy Pelosi, Liz Cheney, Tim Waltz, Ketanji Brown Jackson, Newt Gingrich, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Charlamagne, tha God, and so many more. That's all in the New Yorker Radio Hour wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

From prx.