Facts vs. Fiction in the Impeachment Proceedings Against Donald Trump

The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Date: December 5, 2019
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guest: Susan B. Glasser

Episode Overview

In this episode, executive editor Dorothy Wickenden speaks with New Yorker staff writer Susan B. Glasser to dissect the ongoing impeachment proceedings against President Donald Trump, focusing on the facts unearthed so far and the narratives competing in public discourse. Drawing on recent depositions, testimony, and reporting, they clarify what is now firmly established about the Trump administration’s dealings with Ukraine, key witnesses’ roles, and the broader implications for American democracy.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Incontrovertible Facts About Trump and Ukraine

[03:07–07:03]

• The House Intelligence Committee, chaired by Adam Schiff, compiled significant evidence related to Trump’s attempt to solicit political help from Ukraine.
• Fiona Hill’s testimony powerfully situated Trump’s actions within the broader context of Russian intervention and disinformation (see Notable Quotes below).
• Susan B. Glasser underlines that, “in a short amount of time they were able to get a large pile of evidence, all of which essentially tends to confirm, reinforce and fill in the picture,” built from the July 25th call between Trump and Ukrainian President Zelensky and the whistleblower’s complaint. [03:34]
• There’s on-record testimony and documents indicating Trump personally ordered both the withholding of military aid to Ukraine and the removal of Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch, motivated by personal political interests and at the urging of Rudy Giuliani.
• The “Three Amigos” (Gordon Sondland, Kurt Volker, Rick Perry) were instructed by Trump to work with Giuliani on Ukraine matters, signaling an unorthodox, unofficial channel defining U.S. policy. [04:59–06:12]

2. The Impeachment Case: Sufficient Evidence or Not?

[07:03–09:33]

• Some legal and political observers, like Jonathan Turley, argue the available evidence does not meet the threshold for impeachable offenses, especially bribery or obstruction.
• A fundamental challenge: Trump’s closest associates (e.g., Bolton, Perry, Pompeo, Mulvaney) have refused to testify or have not been subpoenaed, leaving gaps that might otherwise be critical “John Dean”-style testimony.
• New evidence continues to surface, such as call logs tying Rudy Giuliani to OMB and Lev Parnas, but substantial stonewalling has limited the scope.
• The House is likely treating Trump’s refusal to cooperate as an additional article of impeachment, focusing on obstruction of Congress as a response to deliberate stonewalling.

  “There are real questions about, well, is this just accepting the reality that Trump's stonewalling has been effective? The House says they're going to proceed and basically make obstruction of Congress one of the articles of impeachment as their way of addressing the incompleteness of the investigation.” – Susan Glasser [09:14]

3. The Role and Calculations of John Bolton

[10:18–12:17]

• John Bolton, former national security adviser, is seen as holding vital, undisclosed knowledge. According to his lawyer, he knows about “many relevant meetings and conversations about Ukraine.”
• Bolton refused to testify, possibly to protect his own political interests or book deal.

  “He just wasn’t going to risk any of his capital with Trump on behalf of his staff. … Bolton seems to be basically saying it’s not in what he perceives to be his interests and he’s just not going to do it, even though he clearly has stated he has valuable evidence that the public should need to know about.” – Susan Glasser [10:48]

4. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo’s Role and Priorities

[12:17–14:14]

• Pompeo protected his own standing with the President over the concerns of his staff, failing to defend Ambassador Yovanovitch despite the political campaign against her.
• Pompeo has withheld information, avoided transparency, and was misleading about his own involvement in Trump’s call with Zelensky.

  “His priority has been and will remain pleasing the president. And he just wasn’t going to risk any of his capital with Trump on behalf of his staff.” – Susan Glasser [13:39]

5. House Intelligence Committee’s Devin Nunes’ Complicity

[14:15–15:23]

• Devin Nunes, a key Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, was found to have phone contacts with Giuliani and Lev Parnas during the orchestration of the campaign against Yovanovitch.
• Nunes’ proximity to the events is "incredibly remarkable" and suggests deeper complicity.

6. Rudy Giuliani’s Brazen Influence and Ongoing Activities

[15:23–16:32]

• Giuliani continues to visit Ukraine and orchestrate political maneuvers abroad, even as the impeachment hearings unfold, described as “brazen.”
• He is reportedly working on a pro-Trump, anti-impeachment documentary involving the same Ukrainian contacts implicated in the controversy.

7. The Scope of Impeachment and Articles Under Consideration

[16:32–18:17]

• There’s a debate within the Democratic caucus about whether to limit impeachment articles to Ukraine or include broader charges such as obstruction of justice (relating to the Mueller investigation).
• Nancy Pelosi and House Democrats are poised to consider at least three articles: the Ukraine scheme, obstruction of Congress, and possibly obstruction of justice.
• Next steps include Judiciary Committee hearings and potential drafting of multiple articles of impeachment.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

Fiona Hill’s Testimony on Russian Interference and the Importance of Truth

• “Our nation is being torn apart. Truth is questioned. Our highly professional and expert Korea foreign service is being undermined.” – Fiona Hill [02:15]
• “Right now, Russia's security services and their Proxies have geared up to repeat their interference in the 2020 election. We are running out of time to stop them. … Please not promote politically driven falsehoods that so clearly advance Russian interests.” – Fiona Hill [02:34]

On the Political Calculations of Key Players

• “Bolton seems to be basically saying it’s not in what he perceives to be his interests and he’s just not going to do it, even though he clearly has stated he has valuable evidence that the public should need to know about.” – Susan Glasser [11:06]
• “His priority has been and will remain pleasing the president. And he just wasn’t going to risk any of his capital with Trump on behalf of his staff.” – Susan Glasser on Pompeo [13:39]

The Surreal Nature of Giuliani’s Conduct

• “Giuliani … was in Ukraine itself. He appears to be making some sort of a pro-Trump, anti-impeachment documentary with some of the very same characters who were feeding him this information in Ukraine. The merger of public and private interests … if it was in a novel, you'd probably reject it as being too implausible.” – Susan Glasser [15:40]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Schiff’s Committee Summary & Fiona Hill’s Testimony: [01:16–02:51]
• Established Facts on Ukraine Affair: [03:07–06:12]
• Impeachment Evidence & Missing Testimony: [07:03–09:33]
• John Bolton’s Knowledge & Motivations: [10:18–12:17]
• Pompeo’s Conduct & Priorities: [12:17–14:15]
• Devin Nunes’ Involvement: [14:15–15:23]
• Rudy Giuliani’s Brazen Actions: [15:23–16:32]
• Articles of Impeachment—What's Next: [16:32–18:17]

Summary Takeaways

This episode clarifies the facts and raging controversies at the heart of the Trump impeachment inquiry, exposing the orchestrated back-channel Ukraine negotiations, the suppression of key witnesses, and the prioritization of political over national interest by senior Trump officials. It highlights both the solidity of the evidence already in public view and the obstacles imposed by a determined campaign of silence from Trump’s inner circle. Above all, it illustrates the ongoing struggle to define reality in a time when “truth is questioned” and tactics of obfuscation are as central as the facts themselves.